AMF canopy upgrade?

[skaterdave]

no need to entertain me, I look at it more like education for myself so I could possible make better decisions in the future regarding my own boating. If your not comfortable describing the details then ok. Does it really make sense for everyone with a canopy boat to call you. Wouldn't it be easier to just highlight the weak points and generalize how your improving them? I thought it was interesting to read about the new Class 1 rules and how Team Fury was adapting their boat to those rules. Pictures, details and a reason for the changes. Your original post was interesting but it was more about discussions and stories and lacked defined facts and descriptions of the changes.

As for being at the shop the other day, I was there "working" for Jimmy and unless asked, its not my place to question your work for him. I merely was asking whats going on after you comments about Jayboats pic of Talkintrash at your shop, here on this website.

Is it really that hard to describe. One would think you'd be posting pics and sayng heres the mask, its going to be 1/2" thick carbon. We took a sample and launched a bowling ball at 200 mph and it passed. Next heres a pic of the new bulkhead, we applied 100 ton of force and it passed. Ect, ect, ect..........

If your not comfortable talking about the changes and showing how its going to work, then how are racers supposed to learn what works and what doesn't?

[stainless]

Dave,

There are many facet's the the upgrades we are employing on Miss Geico and Talki-n -Trash. Remember these are retrofit upgrades . The proper way to do this is a full redesign of the entire safety cell (which we are doing). One hard lesson we have learned in Offshore Racing is that when you think your safe ...your not. Never stop looking for ways to enhance your safety program.
I applaud Vinny and Jimmy for looking at ways to enhance their cockpit and hope my fellow racers follow in their footsteps. I hope we have more bring their boats for an evaluation before the season starts.

We have employed considerable resources to understand the "dynamic"forces we are dealing with. I can assure you that VERY few people truly understand dynamic water forces and their characteristics. Every step forward seems to open another set of challenges. Many builders simply look the other way so as not to admit that their cockpits are out dated and dangerous, considering the evolution of speed and tight turning courses this is another tragedy in the making. . One key point that we have uncovered utilizing information from various military programs is that for several milliseconds water is an immovable force. We cannot simply rely on a canopy that gives to pressure as the intrusion of water then becomes the the killer. The best way to grasp this concept is to slap your hand as hard as you can against the water next time you are in the pool. While a crude analogy it will help reinforce the concept of strength and dispersal of pressure. What you can clearly see from the high strength carbon mask are several pressure dispersing rails. Highpoint that will break the pressure line first. We strive to keep water from entering the cockpit. We are utilizing shapes to optimize our safety envelope and overcome the massive dynamic forces we face.

Another lesson we have learned from the Unlimited Hydro Racers is to utilize similar pressure diffusing diversion modules surrounding the cockpit (under the deck). Feel free to contact Dave Villwock to inquire what happens when these are not employed. Simple fixes and lessons already learned that seem to be overlooked by most of todays builders. The modules divert high pressure water flow away from the pilots underneath the deck. They should surround the cockpit.

As I mentioned keeping all water out of the cockpit is optimal and in my opinion what every builder should be striving for. Any water incursion can kill and simple engineering can raise the current offshore fleet's water repellent level two fold. Cutting holes that are not water tight in the liner of cockpit cell is a big problem and should be avoided , the slow fill is could be just as dangerous as the quick one if your unconscious.

Most any fire fighter or EMT will be able to discuss and probably firmly state that the secondary acceleration is the most deadly in a high impact crash (your body hitting the seatbelt or cockpit roof). Employing the latest NASCAR/GT circuit safety restraints properly set up Hans devices and DRAGBOAT helmet air systems and ratcheting belts is where we are at this point. Stabilizing your legs so they are not broken should they hit the dash. Remember a super cat is doing 150 mph a turbine cat 180+. Take your car out to a flat road and run it up to this speed if you need a reminder of the velocity we are talking about.

Jerry Gilbreath pounded this into my head.. "Ultimately You and only You are responsible for the safety systems operational on your boat. Never take anyones word" , check it yourself.

Our hatches are now made to the same specs as the bottom of our boat and pinned on all four sides creating a system that builds strength back into the shape of the canopy and ensuring no corners raise when the boat twists. Those parts made from aeronautical grade matériels by an FAA rated shop.

There is more if you want to stick around next time you stop by the shop.

One last thing. The marine/offshore racing industry has a habit of gossiping and trashing everyone and anyone that does, try or innovates. I expect to hear the windbags run their mouths about what will work and what won't . When asked what they are doing different... I bet it is the same old story. As many of you know Gary Stray , Scotty B and myself are fathers and take the safety of our boat as serious as the performance, Haggin as given us a mandate to make the boat as safe as we possibly can. So we are we digging deep with every new concept, watching videos and reviewing most of the old crash photos. Any racer is welcome to stop by our race shop to discuss their safety program and ways to enhance what they have. Most upgrades can be done for less than a set of props. We are always open to brainstorming, new matériels and new ideas.

We will presenting these basic upgrades to Smitty so he can begin implementing them with OPA in the form of suggestions then ultimately rules.


The bottom line is we are tired of losing friends from the same mistakes over and over again and we are doing something about it.

Great Job Guys! Keep up the Great work!! I'm glad someone's taking this seriously!

[Slandrew]

Dave,

There are many facet's the the upgrades we are employing on Miss Geico and Talki-n -Trash. Remember these are retrofit upgrades . The proper way to do this is a full redesign of the entire safety cell (which we are doing). One hard lesson we have learned in Offshore Racing is that when you think your safe ...your not. Never stop looking for ways to enhance your safety program.
I applaud Vinny and Jimmy for looking at ways to enhance their cockpit and hope my fellow racers follow in their footsteps. I hope we have more bring their boats for an evaluation before the season starts.

We have employed considerable resources to understand the "dynamic"forces we are dealing with. I can assure you that VERY few people truly understand dynamic water forces and their characteristics. Every step forward seems to open another set of challenges. Many builders simply look the other way so as not to admit that their cockpits are out dated and dangerous, considering the evolution of speed and tight turning courses this is another tragedy in the making. . One key point that we have uncovered utilizing information from various military programs is that for several milliseconds water is an immovable force. We cannot simply rely on a canopy that gives to pressure as the intrusion of water then becomes the the killer. The best way to grasp this concept is to slap your hand as hard as you can against the water next time you are in the pool. While a crude analogy it will help reinforce the concept of strength and dispersal of pressure. What you can clearly see from the high strength carbon mask are several pressure dispersing rails. Highpoint that will break the pressure line first. We strive to keep water from entering the cockpit. We are utilizing shapes to optimize our safety envelope and overcome the massive dynamic forces we face.

Another lesson we have learned from the Unlimited Hydro Racers is to utilize similar pressure diffusing diversion modules surrounding the cockpit (under the deck). Feel free to contact Dave Villwock to inquire what happens when these are not employed. Simple fixes and lessons already learned that seem to be overlooked by most of todays builders. The modules divert high pressure water flow away from the pilots underneath the deck. They should surround the cockpit.

As I mentioned keeping all water out of the cockpit is optimal and in my opinion what every builder should be striving for. Any water incursion can kill and simple engineering can raise the current offshore fleet's water repellent level two fold. Cutting holes that are not water tight in the liner of cockpit cell is a big problem and should be avoided , the slow fill is could be just as dangerous as the quick one if your unconscious.

Most any fire fighter or EMT will be able to discuss and probably firmly state that the secondary acceleration is the most deadly in a high impact crash (your body hitting the seatbelt or cockpit roof). Employing the latest NASCAR/GT circuit safety restraints properly set up Hans devices and DRAGBOAT helmet air systems and ratcheting belts is where we are at this point. Stabilizing your legs so they are not broken should they hit the dash. Remember a super cat is doing 150 mph a turbine cat 180+. Take your car out to a flat road and run it up to this speed if you need a reminder of the velocity we are talking about.

Jerry Gilbreath pounded this into my head.. "Ultimately You and only You are responsible for the safety systems operational on your boat. Never take anyones word" , check it yourself.

Our hatches are now made to the same specs as the bottom of our boat and pinned on all four sides creating a system that builds strength back into the shape of the canopy and ensuring no corners raise when the boat twists. Those parts made from aeronautical grade matériels by an FAA rated shop.

There is more if you want to stick around next time you stop by the shop.

One last thing. The marine/offshore racing industry has a habit of gossiping and trashing everyone and anyone that does, try or innovates. I expect to hear the windbags run their mouths about what will work and what won't . When asked what they are doing different... I bet it is the same old story. As many of you know Gary Stray , Scotty B and myself are fathers and take the safety of our boat as serious as the performance, Haggin as given us a mandate to make the boat as safe as we possibly can. So we are we digging deep with every new concept, watching videos and reviewing most of the old crash photos. Any racer is welcome to stop by our race shop to discuss their safety program and ways to enhance what they have. Most upgrades can be done for less than a set of props. We are always open to brainstorming, new matériels and new ideas.

We will presenting these basic upgrades to Smitty so he can begin implementing them with OPA in the form of suggestions then ultimately rules.


The bottom line is we are tired of losing friends from the same mistakes over and over again and we are doing something about it.

Windbag?I perfer to be called blow hard

[Maximus]

Dave,

As you saw the shop is quite busy. Maybe we can focus on a pictorial post on the next boat. We are an open shop with regards to safety. If you are seriously interested in learning were an hour away. I bet you have some good ideas on top of what is being implemented you always do. I will talk with Doug and get Gary and him together to discuss the diversion modules.

To those of you offering support. Thank you and we mean that sincerely. ANY Idea you may have is interesting to us.

So many race boats boats safety systems in need of repair upgrade or replacement. The most basic lessons that took great racers lives are being forgotten for nothing more than laziness. It helps if the fellow racers let their friends know about something they feel is not safe. For me... I should have been more firm on the dock with Phil and Aero Express...but I wasn't.


We get pretty good pricing on safety equipment and may be able to help get the proper equipment for any racer serious about safety this year.

[stainless]

So many race boats boats safety systems in need of repair upgrade or replacement. The most basic lessons that took great racers lives are being forgotten for nothing more than laziness. It helps if the fellow racers let their friends know about something they feel is not safe. For me... I should have been more firm on the dock with Phil and Aero Express...but I wasn't.


I know what you mean. I was at that race when that happened also. Felt sick after seeing the aftermath.

[MarylandMark]

Geico leading the way once again! Good job

One last thing. The marine/offshore racing industry has a habit of gossiping and trashing everyone and anyone that does, try or innovates. I expect to hear the windbags run their mouths about what will work and what won't .

Say it ani't so!

[phragle]

I'm glad to see secondary impact being addressed. I have mentioned it many times before. Was just watching an Indy car replay. Seconds after a wreck you have 10 men with extrication equipment swarming the car. Out on the water you will have 1 or 2 divers within 30~45 seconds with limited equipment.. If you broke an arm or leg hitting something in the boat or are bleeding, extricating you has become much more difficult.

Stainless... I really don't believe it is out of laziness. Many have what they my consider status quo as far as safety goes and after that it becomes out of sight and out of mind. one is not focused on how to improve safety. In fact a great deal of subconscoius denial probably exists after that. No racer wants to think about the big wipeout when they can be thinking of bottom tweaks and better props.

[stainless]

I'm glad to see secondary impact being addressed. I have mentioned it many times before. Was just watching an Indy car replay. Seconds after a wreck you have 10 men with extrication equipment swarming the car. Out on the water you will have 1 or 2 divers within 30~45 seconds with limited equipment.. If you broke an arm or leg hitting something in the boat or are bleeding, extricating you has become much more difficult.

Stainless... I really don't believe it is out of laziness. Many have what they my consider status quo as far as safety goes and after that it becomes out of sight and out of mind. one is not focused on how to improve safety. In fact a great deal of subconscoius denial probably exists after that. No racer wants to think about the big wipeout when they can be thinking of bottom tweaks and better props.

That was a Maximus quote.

[phragle]

my bad

[MarylandMark]

I'd think it would be more money/value than laziness. I wish I knew from personal experience, however I'd think most think "safe enough" is just that and paying the X extra to be that much safer isn't worth it. Before any one even says it, what is more valuable than your life? I agree, but if that were the case, why exactly wouldn't every one be doing it (it as in using the safest system out)?

I want all of you to be here tomorrow so keep pushing the envelope on safety!

[MarylandMark]

To those of you offering support. Thank you and we mean that sincerely. ANY Idea you may have is interesting to us.

You asked for it..

So if, God forbid, a boat such as Talkin Trash were to go over, with a 90 degree spin thrown in the mix- so 1st thing on the boat that hits the water upon re-entry is the canopy sideways- would those same tabs grab more water than if the canopy were smooth?

If so, is this design a case of better than it was because more often than not the boat would be at an angle other than a 90 degree angle upon re-entry? Or is it a case of the surface tension is broken either way? The ribs look rounded so does the water roll off to an extent anyway?

Either way as I've said, I'm a fan and keep it upright and going forward but if all doesn't work out on that; glad you are focusing as much on safety as pushing the limit on the speedo as well!

[Slandrew]

Safety systems on boats is improving greatly canopys mandate should only be on boats that surpass 100mph just my opinion?Great to see the big guns are concerned

[Offshore Ginger]

I'd think it would be more money/value than laziness. I wish I knew from personal experience, however I'd think most think "safe enough" is just that and paying the X extra to be that much safer isn't worth it. Before any one even says it, what is more valuable than your life? I agree, but if that were the case, why exactly wouldn't every one be doing it (it as in using the safest system out)?

I want all of you to be here tomorrow so keep pushing the envelope on safety!

Mark , funny thing drag boat people have been pushing the envolope for many years doing triple digits closer to the water with many more guidelines to follow which includes there helmets and yes you are right about saftey.......................and to tell you the truth , should we or somebody ..............have been l@@king into this years ago.

[Steve 1]

Mark , funny thing drag boat people have been pushing the envolope for many years doing triple digits closer to the water with many more guidelines to follow which includes there helmets and yes you are right about saftey.......................and to tell you the truth , should we or somebody ..............have been l@@king into this years ago.

Yes and the drag guys have to let go of the rope and lock the canopy down then 4 seconds later are at 260 mph.

[Offshore Ginger]

Yes and the drag guys have to let go of the rope and lock the canopy down then 4 seconds later are at 260 mph.

Steve 1, funny thing , i have been aproached about this subject ........ and have been giving a lot of thought about it ,and without letting the cat out of the bag................ i am doing a lot of study and research including schedules along with feeling everything out and hoping to have a better handle on things in the future

[phragle]

You asked for it..

So if, God forbid, a boat such as Talkin Trash were to go over, with a 90 degree spin thrown in the mix- so 1st thing on the boat that hits the water upon re-entry is the canopy sideways- would those same tabs grab more water than if the canopy were smooth?

If so, is this design a case of better than it was because more often than not the boat would be at an angle other than a 90 degree angle upon re-entry? Or is it a case of the surface tension is broken either way? The ribs look rounded so does the water roll off to an extent anyway?

Either way as I've said, I'm a fan and keep it upright and going forward but if all doesn't work out on that; glad you are focusing as much on safety as pushing the limit on the speedo as well!

Due to cohesion, water will actually bend continuing the comprssive force on the canopy. Water needs to be pierced, which is what I believe the ribs are intended to do. The easy explaination is to think about how a 24 degree hull rides better than a 20 degree hull.

[Steve Miklos]

Steve , funny thing , i have been aproached about this subject ........ and have been giving a lot of thought about it ,and without letting the cat out of the bag................ i am doing a lot of study and research including schedules along with feeling everything out and hoping to have a better handle on things in the future

A drag boat is much lighter. Even at 260 MPH the forces can be less than the upper classes of current offshore catamarans. A single occupant also make thes the solution easier as the cockpit is small needing only forward visibilty.
Steve

[Steve Miklos]

Due to cohesion, water will actually bend continuing the comprssive force on the canopy. Water needs to be pierced, which is what I believe the ribs are intended to do. The easy explaination is to think about how a 24 degree hull rides better than a 20 degree hull.

Yep!
Steve

[Offshore Ginger]

A drag boat is much lighter. Even at 260 MPH the forces can be less than the upper classes of current offshore catamarans. A single occupant also make thes the solution easier as the cockpit is small needing only forward visibilty.
Steve

Steve , i am not looking into getting into any upper classes of currant offshore cat's .but...............have been doing my schoolwork about capsuls / canopies and with that in mind thank you for your advise .

[rainmn]

That canopy reminded me of Fat Albert...