Mercury Marine To Close And Move All Production From Fond du Lac, Wisconsin......

[MacGyver]

Unless the machinists union agrees to concession to its current contract to help Mercury in this tough economic times. Unfortunately the union in it's bullheaded way said absolutely not, no way to any concessions.

We all know anyone in the boating industry is hurting right now. It just blows my mind that the union would rather have 2,000 jobs lost to selfishness, rather then take concessions for awhile until the economy recovers.

2,000 lost jobs would be a huge hit for Fond du Lac. I hope the union leaders pull their heads out of there ass and realize Mercury would rather stay, but in the current economy, they need their help. Otherwise, the unemployment lines in Fond du Lac are gonna get really, really long :(

[Pete]

Crazy, a friend works @ Kennedy Space Center, they went on strike last year and the union held out. They ended up going back to work under the old contract. Only thing they gained was losing a half years salary:confused:

[catastrophe]

Crazy, a friend works @ Kennedy Space Center, they went on strike last year and the union held out. They ended up going back to work under the old contract. Only thing they gained was losing a half years salary:confused:

The union inside LEVER BROS. here ( national soap brand ) went on strike for 14 months.
Two days ago the company announced it was closing its Canadian facility and sold the land.

All the union guys were on the 6 oclock news sayin " they cant do that"

Guess they just did PHUCKO

[THEJOKER]

http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2009/06/01/daily32.html

" Mercury Marine Moves to Georgia" I can see the headlines now!

[BraceYourself]

My only interaction with Mercury was through High Performance.

I think Mercury needs a wakeup.

[Pro1]

Go collect money from all the boat builders who left them hanging. If they did that bankruptcy would be inevitable.

[2112]

Add Boeing to the list who have had it with labor Unions.

They pay pretty dang well but it is never enough. The machinists (term loosely applied to assemblers) go on strike about every 4-5 years.

Boening just bought land and sub contractor in South Carolina, a right to work state. Look to see a lot of production moved there.

[Ratickle]

Almost all new facilities and modernized facilities, not subsidized by the government, are moving or have moved to right to work states. States like ours answer, add an excise tax to the businesses that are left. Morons......:boxing_smiley:

[32storm]

If you start adding names to this list, it's going to get really long. Unfortunately, too many companies have gone thru the same situation: they want cheaper costs, including labor cost, and the union won't budge. Union assumes they won't move..and the next thing the trucks are showing up to haul stuff out of the plant, and ends up being another empty building.

With Mexico, China, India, Phillipines, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc, etc, there are too many places now that have lower labor costs. Ridiculous with state of US Economy not to try to come to some concession and still have jobs!

[Bobcat]

they can avoid paying a fair wage by moving to china, non union , nickel a day, and after they bust that union they can go after the cops and the fire dept. you can fight crime and fires for 5 bucks an hour with no bennies ! bring back 7 day work weeks and child labor! woo hoo! if the unions go it will happen.

[Dude! Sweet!]

they can avoid paying a fair wage by moving to china, non union , nickel a day, and after they bust that union they can go after the cops and the fire dept. you can fight crime and fires for 5 bucks an hour with no bennies ! bring back 7 day work weeks and child labor! woo hoo! if the unions go it will happen.

I'm with Bob on this one... There's abuse on either side of the coin. Unions go nuts, get greedy and squeeze business out the door, or business goes nuts, gets greedy and puts all their customers (either direct or indirect) out of a job and out of a position to inject cash back into the economy.

You know the expression, hogs get fat, pigs get slaughtered.

[Bgchuby01]

I'm all for banning unions, Who needs them anymore, with Obama we are going into a socalist state anyway.

[Chris]

Unions have always been aided by incompetent management. During and after WW II, no one could do any wrong. But then the Japanese learned how to build cars, then produce steel and our industrial dominance skidded to a halt. The real culprit was OUR avoidance of recognition of the inevitable- that our world was going to change. We kept concentrating on building terrible autos and expensive steel- and management was willing to keep giving in to the unions rather than lose the massive profits in a strike. And then it ground to a halt. Since then, unions have begrudgingly given little back. The steel industry just went belly-up and left their labor force unemployed and with lost pensions. The auto industry came close, but now all those working people with significantly less in pension benefit get to contribute to make sure the auto workers are fully protected. Can you say irony?

The next big bubble- public sector. We just don't have it to spread around anymore. We can't afford to pay people 30 years of full retirement income after only 30 years of work contribution- not to mention zero-contribution benefits.

The boys at Merc will relent. But most likely after the decision has been made and the trucks are there to pick up the machines. They'll be running after management saying "we'll negotiate", but it'll be too late.

[Geronimo36]

Seems no one took notes when steel and manufacturing left the country. same ole same ole.... it'll go overseas.....

Funny thing about unions. My buddy is in the electical union and hasn't seen much work for about a year now... catch 22 is he cant work in the real world unless he leaves the union or does it under the table.. meanwhile his sitting around waiting to be called and doing odd jobs to support a family of 6. so much good the union is doing!

[stainless]

...

[Ratickle]

It's all a tough call but, when our government gave the right to other countries to sell in our country. And, they don't have to meet any of the mandated labor, pollution, tax, or worker safety laws that companies here do.:ack2: It did, and does, keep inflation very low here though.
It was an easyconclusion we would have a very prosperous time with a very decisive fallout. There were many articles, and campaigns, which discussed it then, and have come true now.:(

Until the Unions stop electing officials who think it's okay to save money by sending jobs out of the country, it will continue, and the standard of living here will continue to drop.

It will not get any better until that stops through legislation, or the standard of living around the world evens out. There are no other options.

Since 1994 NAFTA, and 2000 China Most Favored Nation Status were both signed by Clinton, over 10 Trillion net dollars of US value has been transferred to just Mexico and China. But at least he received 10's of millions of dollars from China for his charities, which he gets paid by, as soon as he left office.:boxing_smiley:

[Ratickle]

Seems no one took notes when steel and manufacturing left the country. same ole same ole.... it'll go overseas.....

Funny thing about unions. My buddy is in the electical union and hasn't seen much work for about a year now... catch 22 is he cant work in the real world unless he leaves the union or does it under the table.. meanwhile his sitting around waiting to be called and doing odd jobs to support a family of 6. so much good the union is doing!

My Dad was a Steel Mill employee his entire career.

[OldSchool]

The next big bubble- public sector. We just don't have it to spread around anymore. We can't afford to pay people 30 years of full retirement income after only 30 years of work contribution- not to mention zero-contribution benefits.

.


Shame on you for even thinking that!!!!!!!:sifone::rofl::sifone::rofl::driving:

[Ratickle]

The next big bubble- public sector. We just don't have it to spread around anymore. We can't afford to pay people 30 years of full retirement income after only 30 years of work contribution- not to mention zero-contribution benefits.

I hope you are correct, but I doubt it will happen until the country is completely bankrupt. If you take government jobs out of the job creation numbers, this recession is much worse.

The powers that be are so out of touch with reality, they actually think that by taking over half your money and distributing it to someone else, they are creating wealth.

That is because they are one of the receivers of those funds and they do really well, so it must be the right thing to do........:boxing_smiley:.

[JupiterSunsation]

The next big bubble- public sector. We just don't have it to spread around anymore. We can't afford to pay people 30 years of full retirement income after only 30 years of work contribution- not to mention zero-contribution benefits.



Local reporter has a hard on about this issue and profiled a retiring Ft Lauderdale cop in her column last week. Cop makes 125K +/- a year and retired after 27 years with a sign off bonus of 285K and a monthly pension of 7K a month for life. She figured this guy will cost the city 4mm for his 27 years of service after his benefits are added up over his lifetime.

The story ruffled a lot of feathers with the public and the cops. She was blasted by the cop for outlining his finances for the public to see and the public was outraged he was making so much money both on and off the job. He only had one point to stand on being that was the package offered to him and he did his job so he expects to be paid the package he earned. This guy worked many nights, weekends, holidays, hurricanes over the years but 4mm is a lot of money to spend on a cop for 27 years service (salary working, sign off bonus and pension over another 30 years all added up).

[JupiterSunsation]

Pensions used to be compensation for a low paying, crappy job like city trash guys/factory workers etc but now those jobs pay decent and most of the people in them are seeking out these jobs simply for the long term benefits.

[Tony]

Pensions used to be compensation for a low paying, crappy job like city trash guys/factory workers etc but now those jobs pay decent and most of the people in them are seeking out these jobs simply for the long term benefits.


I know a handfull of extremely wealthy self employed people who's wives work some BS administration job for county/city/state type offices just for the insurance packages.

[Scarab KV]

Unless the machinists union agrees to concession to its current contract to help Mercury in this tough economic times. Unfortunately the union in it's bullheaded way said absolutely not, no way to any concessions.

2,000 lost jobs would be a huge hit for Fond du Lac. I hope the union leaders pull their heads out of there ass and realize Mercury would rather stay, but in the current economy, they need their help. Otherwise, the unemployment lines in Fond du Lac are gonna get really, really long :(

Don't forget all the satelite companies that provide support. We already have a 14% unemployment rate for Fond du Lac county. I'm in the process of closing my store due to the economy here. If Mercury pulls out, it's gonna get ugly here:(

[rschap1]

Enough blame to go around. Just like the Automakers. I worked for 12 years for a UAW company. Originally spun off GM by Roger Penske in the early 90s. Things went real well for 5 years or so. As the business grew EVERYONE wanted more. New hires got lazier with their union protection, managment wanted more since company was profitting, the union demanded more for itself. Bosch bought in as a way to eliminate their competition. They recognized the abuses and moved from our state and country. Now everyone loses. Workers get lazy and want more, managment makes bad decisions but still want more, and the union hierarchy get corrupt and want more. I feel bad for the hardworker that does his job everyday and is a victim of this stuff!!!!!

[Mac]

I know the state of Oklahoma is offering Mercury some very nice incentives to move it all to the Stillwater Okla. plant, looks as this might happen.

[Scarab KV]

Word here now is Oshkosh Truck has expressed intrest in the buildings.

[duke252]

Working in a UAW plant really opens up your eyes to how F'd Up Unions are.

I remember my first day, some guy showed up to work drunk (I was told not the first occasion), wrecks a forklift and damages a ton of product, the supervisor fires him. The guy is back to work less than 2wks later because the union got his job back.

5 yrs later the company asked the union to freeze wages for existing employees and new hires got a lower base rate. Union said absolutely not, now you have 1k union members w/out jobs crying that the company treated them poorly. Just amazing.

[Sea-Dated]

I know the state of Oklahoma is offering Mercury some very nice incentives to move it all to the Stillwater Okla. plant, looks as this might happen.

Yup, and Oklahoma is a right to work state they can tell the unions to go phuck themselves.....:sifone:

[ThrottleUp Props]

Yup, and Oklahoma is a right to work state they can tell the unions to go phuck themselves.....:sifone:

But, it is not looking great in OK either. Very sad!!!!

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/497519-mercruiser-announces-layoffs-in-oklahoma

Julie

[Sea-Dated]

But, it is not looking great in OK either. Very sad!!!!

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/497519-mercruiser-announces-layoffs-in-oklahoma

Julie

That is sad but maybe bringing the plant here will get these workers their jobs back.

Plus they would get away from the cold Milwaukee winters.....:sifone:

[MacGyver]

they can avoid paying a fair wage by moving to china, non union , nickel a day, and after they bust that union they can go after the cops and the fire dept. you can fight crime and fires for 5 bucks an hour with no bennies ! bring back 7 day work weeks and child labor! woo hoo! if the unions go it will happen.

Bob, sounds like you are taking the union's side on this :leaving:

[MacGyver]

Latest on the news tonight......still no agreement between the union and Mercury. They have until Monday, then Mercury will decide if its wants to stay in Fond du Lac anymore.

I hope and pray they stay.

[Marginmn]

My family moved to Muncie Indiana when I was ten. The town lived and died with the auto industry- Borg Warner and New Venture gear. About five years back the management of NVG goes to the union and tells them the only way they can keep the plant open is if they merge with Borg Warner (located right down the street) but it will mean like a $1.50 an hour pay cut to the NVG employees. The union leadership advises them to turn it down. The union votes NO and sure enough the plant closes and takes 1500+ $20+ an hour jobs with it.

A couple years go by and Ford is in big time trouble so they go to the union at Borg Warner with a similar offer. Ratify a new contract and take a $2 an hour pay cut and we'll guarantee your jobs for the next 15 years, but if the union doesn't agree then they can't afford their product and they will move the work to a different facility out of state. It's the unions choice. So after the lesson of NVG that had shut it's doors just a few years prior, what does the Union workforce at Borg Warner do? Of course they vote down the new contract. Ford says FU and takes their business to a different plant out of state and 1000+ more high paying union jobs bite the dust in Muncie.

If that isn't bad enough here's the kicker. You talk to these unemployed union guys who were making $20+ an hour about their decision to vote down the contract and they will tell you that they did the right thing - that there was just no way they could accept that pay cut!

They lost their high paying jobs, lost their benefits, lost their future but they still think they made the right decision because they couldn't let management get away with that b.s pay cut. I just don't get the union mindset - thankfully.

[Tony]

I just don't get the union mindset - thankfully.

Its real simple: I want more for doing less while I walk all over the company I work for. At least for the shop unions.

I have a buddy, used to be great friend but his shop union mentality has demoted him to just "buddy status". This guy is a real peice of work and listening to him talk about his job makes me want to puke.

[Scarab KV]

They do a pretty good job of brain wash'n them

[Brownie]

I used to play cards with the VP of Eastern Airlines, during the period when they were tring to save the company. When the machinists union turned down the last offer, the company closed. The head of the local union said "We won"!

[Ratickle]

I think it was an old head of the UAW who said, "I'd rather have 10 union members making $10000 an hour than 10000 union members making $10 per hour." May have been one of the other union heads though. I'll try to find it. Was in the 70's I believe.

They still seem to follow that practice at all the national unions.

[Magicfloat]

Lee Iacocco said it best many years ago while he was trying to save Chrysler.Not sure of the $ amounts,but he told the union"I have plenty of jobs at $25/hour,but no jobs at $35/hour." He won.

[Scarab KV]

Lee Iacocco said it best many years ago while he was trying to save Chrysler.Not sure of the $ amounts,but he told the union"I have plenty of jobs at $25/hour,but no jobs at $35/hour." He won.

I like that:sifone:

[whatboat]

I was a contractor at Cat in Peoria. The union walked and cat said, no problem, don't let door hit you in arse on the way out.
They took management and put them back on the assembly lines where they came from.
Quality went way up. In fact the area where they used to park the big Cat's for rework was empty and was turned into a indoor basketball court.

A few yrs later a judge told Cat that they had to take back the uniun guys.
Quality went down, the basketball area was turned back into a rework area.

Guess what ? Yep the union screamed. You can't take away the backetball court !!!!

Last time I was in Peoria that whole facility was an empty lot.

[gerritm]

You ever notice that when the union bigwigs negotiate these horseship deals the only ones that suffer are the workers that lose thier jobs. Maybe it's time for the union officials to have some steak in the game. Their negotiations go sour, they lose their jobs right along with the workers. I never understood that. They just move on to screw up the next union job.

[C_Spray]

..I worked for 12 years for a UAW company. Originally spun off GM by Roger Penske in the early 90s...
That would be Detroit Diesel? RP told me about a union negotiation where the union representative asked for a bonus for perfect attendance. RP told him "I thought that I was already paying everyone to come to work every day."

The union rep said nothing for a few seconds, then moved on to the next subject....

[MacGyver]

RP told him "I though that I was already paying everyone to come to work every day."

The union rep said nothing for a few seconds, then moved on to the next subject....

Roger Penske-1, Union rep-0.

[Matt Trulio]

There was a time when unions were absolutely essential in this country. That time has passed. And trust me, I have no faith in "big business" to do the right thing. History has shown, from labor policy to environmental policy, that big business only does the right thing when it is dragged kicking and screaming to it.

Unless doing the right thing is profitable. And there's nothing wrong with that.
But what unions have done, to some extent, is make profitability next to impossible.

On the flip side ... How do you guys feel about CEOs who get who huge bonuses when their companies lose money year after year? Greed, my friends, is greed, and everyone seems to have a reason why his big paycheck is really what he deserves (probably less) but yours or mine is simply greed.

As Ratickle said, there have been (always will be) abuses on both sides, labor and ownership. But at this moment in time, labor is out of control.

[Ratickle]

The biggest problem I see with labor is the "National" giant unions. It used to be, when a union started, the local economy, local job market, etc. dictated the negotiations between thr company and the workers.

They all got together, said this is where we're at, things were discussed, a contract was worked out that was usually, (not always), a decent comprimise for all involved.

Now, some dumbazz in Washington or New York tells a worker in Georgia he has to go on strike because the workers in Michigan are pizzed off at the management there and want more money or guaranteed wages even if they aren't working.

So, an engine assembling plant in some state other than where the beef is at shuts down 20 factories around the country, the employees at every facility other than the one that went on strike get unemployment compensation at the tax payers expense, and the workers at the one plant on strike get paid out of the union strike fund.

So, management settles for some rediculous demand because they can't have 20 facilities shut down, and the union wonders why every one of their jobs goes to an overseas company or non-union facility in a right-to-work state.

Then, the union employees lose their job and the union organizers and and employees keep theirs and go on to somewhere else and promise more money for less work if you pay them. Sweet gig.

[Ratickle]

On the flip side ... How do you guys feel about CEOs who get who huge bonuses when their companies lose money year after year? Greed, my friends, is greed, and everyone seems to have a reason why his big paycheck is really what he deserves (probably less) but yours or mine is simply greed.




Don't know how that ever happened, the only way I can figure it out is they model themselves after politicians and lawyers. Get paid no matter how bad you suck.....:sifone:

I think I read where the highest paid CEO in America this year managed his company so well it lost 80% of it's value?

[MarylandMark]

:seeya:

[MacGyver]

:seeya:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/sparkyrick/party-smiley-004.gif

[db71]

I like the fact that a UAW worker not only wants more (I know they lost this time kind of but only example I could think of) they then want discounts when they buy there cars I think Ford employees get like 4 of the largest discount per year (maybe 2) Lets just say that is $3000 a vehicle average that is $12,000 an employee every year or two. They also have a few more discounts at a leesor value I think.

So in recap I want to charge you as much as possible for my services but want you to provide me with your product at cost.

If you ask a union guy it is the big companies that want to cut costs so they put more in there pocket.

If you ask me it is the consumer or end user wants so much of a discount that the only way to stay profitable is to cut costs or go out of business (which many have).

So now maybe all the union people should go to the car dealership, airline, amtrak, grocery store, mercury dealer, lumber yard, acountant (office buildings which are built mostly union) and everything else that is shipped or built and say they are willing to pay 20% more than what the asking price for that product to help save there jobs then they should not have a leg to stand on.

So the question for union people is are the big companies greedy or are they the ones who want "more for less".

Sorry about the rant but I seem to have this discussion every week with someone here that is losing or lost their job. I used to live in St louis and that was even worse everyone there is losing their job.

[Scarab KV]

I like the fact that a UAW worker not only wants more (I know they lost this time kind of but only example I could think of) they then want discounts when they buy there cars I think Ford employees get like 4 of the largest discount per year (maybe 2) Lets just say that is $3000 a vehicle average that is $12,000 an employee every year or two. They also have a few more discounts at a leesor value I think.

If I remember right, didn't family members also got the discount through GM?

[db71]

Yeah they all have it I just knew the ford situation first hand. I do not know but would assume mercury gives discounts to employees also but who knows. The theory behind it is so they buy the products they make (which they should do anyway). There are old school union employees who do it right but there are probably 1000 to 1 of the ones that take pride in what they make. And they are retiring daily.


I had a conversation with a ford employee when they closed the St Louis plant his options where like $60,000 (a years salary with benifits) and they would pay for a 4 year degree. Or I think like $90,000 complete buyout (2 years salary without benifits) now I am not exact on the numbers it was 3 years ago.

But I will say he was at a loss I said why don't you take the cash and school he said well I have to get certain grades and other things of that sort (you had to pass the classes at a certain level or they would not pay for the class) I said then take the $90,000 and start a business he was like well if it fails I have nothing.

Basically long story short it was the big mean companies fault he was a nice guy but had no actual skills besides put bolt in hole and his ability to think for himself was non existant. He had looked at jobs and he was looking at working at Subway.

I know someone who worked at a grocery store for 10 years she made to much so they fired her ($12.00hr) and she barely got her unemployment of $250 a week. I really have a hard time feeling for this guy but to hear him tell it he had it bad.

[fastlane40]

All i want is an XR upper.:-(
Posted in wanted section.

[rschap1]

That would be Detroit Diesel? .

A supplier to Detroit Diesel. When Penske owned it, it was Diesel Technology Company. Later became Robert Bosch Fuel Systems when they bought it from him.

[Birdog]

You all do understand that these "Press Releases" come from the suits at Corporate dont you ?...,They are not going to mention the $s and perks they all get...When Iacocca asked for cutbacks he started at the TOP and worked down...

[Ratickle]

You all do understand that these "Press Releases" come from the suits at Corporate dont you ?...,They are not going to mention the $s and perks they all get...When Iacocca asked for cutbacks he started at the TOP and worked down...

Do not disagree, there is plenty of blame to go around. Probably number 1 starts with our government. The example they set bleeds down into the productive people, and then they become less productive.

[T2x]

There was a time when unions were absolutely essential in this country. That time has passed. And trust me, I have no faith in "big business" to do the right thing. History has shown, from labor policy to environmental policy, that big business only does the right thing when it is dragged kicking and screaming to it.

Unless doing the right thing is profitable. And there's nothing wrong with that.
But what unions have done, to some extent, is make profitability next to impossible.

On the flip side ... How do you guys feel about CEOs who get who huge bonuses when their companies lose money year after year? Greed, my friends, is greed, and everyone seems to have a reason why his big paycheck is really what he deserves (probably less) but yours or mine is simply greed.

As Ratickle said, there have been (always will be) abuses on both sides, labor and ownership. But at this moment in time, labor is out of control.

As someone who has had his life threatened by the old Teamster thugs, I know first hand how corrupt and worthless the unions are for their constituents. I applaud Mercury for taking a tough stand. I hope they don't blink due to "pressure from above". On the other hand I hope the loyal, hardworking, Fox River Valley Mercury employees do not wind up jobless. The Company has a long and legendary tradition and deserves better than an inglorious end in Oklahoma.

You know it's a funny thing. Most of the overpaid CEO's, etc seem to be cut from the same fabric. These are the guys with close political ties in DC who are in the same rocking chair as the power brokers they back. Some of this may have to do with unholy alliances forced on public companies via strict "government" and SEC supervision, union contract negotiations ( and related liberal "labor" PR impressions...... you scratch my back......). Out here in the "real" business world you are rewarded or penalized for performance and that is true capitalism. The other stuff between the politicians, the government agencies, the unions, and the high level financiers is rapidly becoming uber socialism. If you check out the marxist rantings coming out of George Soros, Warren Buffett, and Bill Gates, one gets the feeling that they are more into power than performance, and believers in extreme social reform, to the extent that they sound like labor leaders. This makes them the darlings of the networks and the Pelosi, Obama, Frank, Reid "circle of trust".

Just my .02, but it is becoming increasingly obvious that there are forces at play in the boardrooms of high finance that the hard working, entrepeneurial taxpayer will never comprehend.

T2x

[Ratickle]

Here's how out of touch they are. They haven't a clue how the real world works. 30 years and out? Seems reeasonable to those who put in 8 or 10 years and get these kind of pensions, not to mention the other huge perks, for the rest of their lives and their spouses lives.


Former Vice President Al Gore’s initial pension in 2001 was approximately $94,810, NTU estimates. Cost of living adjustments bring Gore’s 2009 benefit up to $120,378.

Vice President Dick Cheney will weather the bear market with a pension worth an estimated $132,451 per year. His pension, based on service as a Representative, Vice President, and other executive branch posts, will also be regularly adjusted for the cost of living.

President Bush will get a $196,700 pension this year.

[T2x]

Here's how out of touch they are. They haven't a clue how the real world works. 30 years and out? Seems reeasonable to those who put in 8 or 10 years and get these kind of pensions, not to mention the other huge perks, for the rest of their lives and their spouses lives.


Former Vice President Al Gore’s initial pension in 2001 was approximately $94,810, NTU estimates. Cost of living adjustments bring Gore’s 2009 benefit up to $120,378.

Vice President Dick Cheney will weather the bear market with a pension worth an estimated $132,451 per year. His pension, based on service as a Representative, Vice President, and other executive branch posts, will also be regularly adjusted for the cost of living.

President Bush will get a $196,700 pension this year.

Frankly, that's chicken feed for any of those guys. Their "coupons" are worth far more.

[Ratickle]

Frankly, that's chicken feed for any of those guys. Their "coupons" are worth far more.

I know, I was trying to point out their basis for reference though. What Clinton got from the Chinese as soon as his term was over makes me want to puke. And Obama has already committed for doing a book as soon as he leaves office. Not to mention his wife's.

The deals the politicians worked out with the businesses, and governments, around the world is what caused this recession/depression in my opinion. That is why I believe they are the most culpable, but they are not held acountable. And maybe can't be with the way they pass laws and enforce laws.

[T2x]

The problem with elections is that every time they hold one...a politician wins. This says an awful lot about the lack of curiosity, and knowledge of the American voter.

[Ratickle]

The problem with elections is that every time they hold one...a politician wins.

Root cause issue perfectly stated.......:)

[rbhudelson]

The Company has a long and legendary tradition and deserves better than an inglorious end in Oklahoma.

T2x

Just stay in the shallow end with regards to Oklahoma. There are those of us on this board that live here and think it is a decent place to live. The rest of this is not directed at you T2X.

The great thing about this country is that if you become disenchanted with the way things are going you can run for office and, if elected, start fixing what you think is broke. I don't really blame the politicians, CEO's or Labor Leaders for the mess we are in but they are easy targets. We the people are to blame. We allow the politicians to lie to us yet keep them in office, we allow the CEO's to gouge us yet continue trading with them, we allow the labor unions to stay in power yet don't hold them to performance standards.

Part of the problem is business does not work like government. In business, there is a boss and what the boss says goes - right or wrong. Government doesn't remotely work like that - thank god. That is unless I am the dictator. I'm willing to go for that. But chances are good that you are not and I'm not willing to turn it over to you. So, it seems to me the best we can do is to elect people that are good at building consensus that share our beliefs. We just haven't done a very good job at that part.

[flyinrio]

China not only is growing they are buying our technology. Boeing nowwill build planes in China! Many companies are desparate and are selling out thier technology to 'China for not only cash but for future incentives on taxes.
This and many other disturbing facts were presented by the Commissioner for US and China at a recent PBS broadcast .

The biggest problem being the WTC or World Trade Commision lets us trade with China but allows thier exports to massively exceed thier imports and they are vey wealthy coutry. The WTC must make a change to make China import more from the USA or they will be what they are striving hard for is to be the richest a most powerful country on earth.They say they will do it.

Our largest export to China is SCRAP which they are collecting to drive our steel plants out as well as use it to grow China since they do not have the resources to get the metals anywhere else. BTW China is in its last stage of development of a missile that can track a moving ship at 1000 miles away. We cant stop them.

[Indy]

We the people are to blame. We allow the politicians to lie to us yet keep them in office, we allow the CEO's to gouge us yet continue trading with them, we allow the labor unions to stay in power yet don't hold them to performance standards.

You bet!!

[T2x]

Just stay in the shallow end with regards to Oklahoma. There are those of us on this board that live here and think it is a decent place to live.

I used to live in Arkansas and Texas and got married in Oklahoma (Durant). I know the area well and think the people are the salt of the earth...... but , like all places I have become familiar with ( my birth place, NYC,..........Long Island, where I was raised,....... Canada , where I did a lot of racing, and of course, "Joisey") I reserve the right to poke a little fun now and then.

By the way, what percent Cherokee are you? :p :D :D.

T2x

[C_Spray]

The problem with elections is that every time they hold one...a politician wins. This says an awful lot about the lack of curiosity, and knowledge of the American voter.

Not always. We sometimes have a sense of humor:

Jesse Ventura (Pro Rassler)
Sonny Bono (Singer)
Al Franken (Comedian)
Ronald Reagan (Actor. I thought that he did a pretty good job...)
Arnold Schwarzanegger (The Governator)
Others?

Anyway - Hope the whole Mercury thing works out best for as many employees as possible. The upside of economic downturns/recessions is that they allow a little healthy Darwinism to take place, and stronger companies to emerge on the back side. Hopefully, the corrupt and unproductive will suffer the most.

[Steve 1]

A couple things Eastern Airlines was mentioned, their demise was sealed by Charlie Bryant (fat azzed Union boss) who refused to acknowledge the dire need to cut the costs as laid out, so he and his union lackeys started a march on Tallassee from Miami ,they got to Hollywood and gave up anyway the grand old company went under, What a shame good old fashioned Stupidity and “Screw the man attitude” prevalent in these union hacks was 100% responsible.

We have the Highest Corporate taxes in the world.

The Draconian EPA and every alphabet name in the government and Plus the lawyers looking too sue the all ready handcuffed companies at every opportunity; this place has become the joke of the earth.

In short it is the business environment we have today This Country is VERY unfriendly towards Industry. I have setup business overseas and was shocked at the difference.

I am not going to comment on what this current crop of Bastards in government is doing for that I would have to reach into another language for verbiage as English does not have the depth of negative commentary I need.

[rbhudelson]

By the way, what percent Cherokee are you? :p :D :D.

T2x

Enough to be a card carrying member :)

[Sea-Dated]

By the way, what percent Cherokee are you? :p :D :D.

T2x

0% but I still like Oklahoma and would love to see Mercury move all of it's operations to Stillwater Oklahoma!!!!!

[Ratickle]

A couple things Eastern Airlines was mentioned, their demise was sealed by Charlie Bryant (fat azzed Union boss) who refused to acknowledge the dire need to cut the costs as laid out, so he and his union lackeys started a march on Tallassee from Miami ,they got to Hollywood and gave up anyway the grand old company went under, What a shame good old fashioned Stupidity and “Screw the man attitude” prevalent in these union hacks was 100% responsible.

We have the Highest Corporate taxes in the world.

The Draconian EPA and every alphabet name in the government and Plus the lawyers looking too sue the all ready handcuffed companies at every opportunity; this place has become the joke of the earth.

In short it is the business environment we have today This Country is VERY unfriendly towards Industry. I have setup business overseas and was shocked at the difference.

I am not going to comment on what this current crop of Bastards in government is doing for that I would have to reach into another language for verbiage as English does not have the depth of negative commentary I need.

What he said......:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Scarab KV]

Here's the latest after Monday's final talks.

The union that represents the hourly workers at Mercury Marine in Fond du Lac ended contract negotiations with the company Monday afternoon and said it will present a proposal from Mercury to its members for a vote Sunday.


Monday was the targeted deadline for the finalization of an agreement on the contract, according to a press release from Mercury Marine.

Mercury’s proposal has the potential for a long-term contract that includes wages that are competitive for this region, a benefits package similar to that of Mercury’s salaried workers and operational flexibility similar to that in place at other locations.
Representatives of the company and the union talked for about five hours Monday in Fond du Lac before the union informed Mercury of its plans for a vote.


“It’s extremely disappointing that these past two weeks of negotiations, as well as months of preparation, have not resulted in a tentative agreement,” said Mercury Marine president Mark Schwabero.


Representatives of the company and union leadership have met over the last two weeks to negotiate needed changes on benefits, wages and operational flexibility.


“We have been extremely open and honest with our employees and their representatives about the challenges that must be overcome if Mercury is to remain in Fond du Lac,” said Schwabero.


“This is not an attempt to take advantage of a struggling economy. The terms being presented to the union are truly the best option for a competitive and profitable operation. The company has been very open and forthcoming and, we think, reasonable in our requests.”


Mercury is attempting to decrease underutilization of its facilities in order to emerge from the economic downturn a stronger and more profitable company in a very different, much smaller market. Consolidation of its operations in Fond du Lac or Stillwater, Oklahoma, is one possible option that could realize those goals.


Even without a tentative agreement, union leaders have the ability to place the company’s proposal before the union membership for a ratification vote

[Ratickle]

So the way I read it, the Union leadership does not have a contract or agreement they are willing to say is worth voting on, but are giving the Mercury Marine proposal directly to the members for a vote anyway?

[Geronimo36]

I recieved the below message from IBI today;
http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/newsdesk/20090718160507ibinews.html

Mercury contract talks fall apart

By IBI Magazine

Contract talks fell apart yesterday between Mercury Marine and leaders of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Lodge 1947, which represents hourly workers in its Fond du Lac headquarters. The union leaders said that it would bring Mercury's proposals to a vote among its members on August 23.

"It's extremely disappointing that these past two weeks of negotiations, as well as months of preparation, have not resulted in a tentative agreement," Mark Schwabero, Mercury president, said in a statement.

Mercury had set Monday as the deadline for negotiations. The company has been weighing its options for future operations, including consolidation of its Fond du Lac facilities to its MerCruiser operations in Stillwater, Oklahoma, or vice versa.

"We have been extremely open and honest with our employees and their representatives about the challenges that must be overcome if Mercury is to remain in Fond du Lac. This is not an attempt to take advantage of a struggling economy," said Schwabero.

Union leaders said the offer calls for a seven-year wage freeze, pay cuts for laid-off employees called back to work, and higher health care costs for retirees. "If I wanted to retire at age 62, my pension wouldn't even cover what I had to pay for health insurance," Mark Zillges, Lodge 1947 president, told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Zillges said Mercury offered "assurances" it would keep a presence in Fond du Lac, but did not guarantee hourly jobs. "I think for spite they are going to move some jobs to Oklahoma," he told the paper. "But I don't think the company has the millions of dollars it would cost to do an environmental cleanup of the plant site here" if they chose to close it.

Mercury says its proposal includes a long-term contract that includes wages "competitive for this region, a benefits package similar to that of Mercury's salaried workers and operational flexibility similar to that in place at other locations."

Mercury spokesman Steve Fleming told IBI that the union's proposals would've increased Mercury's costs and not lowered them. "The union asked for wages that were in the top 98-percentile for manufacturing jobs in the region," he said. "Over a four or five year period they would've increased by 9.5 per cent. That's in conflict with what we're trying to accomplish here."

Fleming said the Mercury proposal includes a three-year freeze, and then the company would "evaluate what wages in Wisconsin are doing" in order to gauge further pay increases. Fleming said wages and benefits at the Fond du Lac facility are not "cost competitive" with other locations, including Stillwater.

The union leaders said the company wants to hire a temporary workforce that could comprise up to 30 per cent of hourly employees. Dan Longsine, chief negotiator for Lodge 1947, told the paper that concessions without job guarantees will probably be a sticking point for the union members. "I think that our negotiators were willing to consider concessions if it meant keeping jobs, but it just didn't seem to be enough," Longsine told the paper.

(18 August 2009)

[MacGyver]

The union will vote this Sunday.

From the union rep's interviews on the local news, Mercury Marine is done in Fond du Lac. So sad...2000 jobs will be lost.....because of selfish, union thinking.


I hope they don't complain about the long lines at the unemployment office.

[Sea-Dated]

Very sad for Fond du Lac.........


However, Oklahoma will welcome those jobs with open arms and no unions......

[RLJ676]

I'd add for those comparing the greedy CEO's to the unions that there is a big difference. A top CEO can earn his keep and then some, such as Mulally these days (many don't of course) and can get hired elsewhere for the same pay or more. Most union gigs are getting paid more and better benefits than anyone doing similar work on the "open market".

As to the Mercury situation, what a shame that these guys can't get a clue as to what will happen to them. I haven't seen though, what kind of benefits/pay to they get compared to the region?

Happens with auto suppliers and many other unions. They are competing with others, refuse to get in line with a fair wage (not underpaid), lose the business and their jobs, then blame the corporation. If the product they're producing can't support the wage, and their's willing labor capable of making it for less the outcome is inevitable.

Like Ratickle's been saying, as long as this country continues in this sham of a "global economy" we will continue to lose standard of living, while everyone gains. It is simple equilibrium.

[schnydo]

china not only is growing they are buying our technology. Boeing nowwill build planes in china! Many companies are desparate and are selling out thier technology to 'china for not only cash but for future incentives on taxes.
This and many other disturbing facts were presented by the commissioner for us and china at a recent pbs broadcast .

The biggest problem being the wtc or world trade commision lets us trade with china but allows thier exports to massively exceed thier imports and they are vey wealthy coutry. The wtc must make a change to make china import more from the usa or they will be what they are striving hard for is to be the richest a most powerful country on earth.they say they will do it.

Our largest export to china is scrap which they are collecting to drive our steel plants out as well as use it to grow china since they do not have the resources to get the metals anywhere else. Btw china is in its last stage of development of a missile that can track a moving ship at 1000 miles away. We cant stop them.

i'm sure obama's on it

[boatme]

Like Ratickle's been saying, as long as this country continues in this sham of a "global economy" we will continue to lose standard of living, while everyone gains. It is simple equilibrium.

Interesting statment since it was the Big Three that helped to coin the phrase "Global outsourcing"

Auto companies led the way in buying out of this country

The top three groups that are proving to be our worst nightmare are

1) Polititians
2) Lawyers
3) Unions

[Ryan8886]

The problem with elections is that every time they hold one...a politician wins. This says an awful lot about the lack of curiosity, and knowledge of the American voter.

Ditto!

[Ratickle]

Interesting statment since it was the Big Three that helped to coin the phrase "Global outsourcing"

Auto companies led the way in buying out of this country

The top three groups that are proving to be our worst nightmare are

1) Polititians
2) Lawyers
3) Unions

Auto companies had no choice after the decisions of the Clinton administration to allow Mexican and Chinese imports with no tariffs, and with no enforcement of the same laws (pollution, child labor, SSI, unemployment, patents, copyrights, worker safety, etc.) they force the US companies to adhere too. Do you send your manufacturing overseas? Or do you go out of business? There was/is no third option for US companies......

And these morons are making it worse now with trying to pass the new energy and health mandates. We already have the highest corporate taxes and operational expenses in the world.

[T2x]

The top three groups that are proving to be our worst nightmare are

1) Polititians
2) Lawyers
3) Unions

You left out our biggest nightmare....Educators.

The sad truth is, IMHO, the agenda of the educational/political/financial complex is one that would shock the mainstream taxpayer. You now have a huge workforce of slick MBA's who have been schooled (brainwashed?) into believing a bunch of Marxist pap stuffed in their little stylish heads by the treasonous colleges they attended, funded by the carefully saved dollars of their baby boom (Woodstock generation)parents, and endowed by leftwing trust funds like the Rockefeller and Ford Foundations (which bear no resemblance to the principles of John D. or Henry).

The simple goal for the majority of institutions of higher learning is a new world order based on a gigantic socialist/communist agenda. The only way to accomplish this is to raise the third world....and bury the first (us). This gang has elected a series of presidents ( Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, Clinton...and the uber child...Obama.... and you can probably throw the Bushes in there if only out of simple naivete') as well as a compliant congress of traitorous swine. These blowholes have basically played Robin Hood by stealing hard earned taxpayer money and giving it to the proletariat in silly cash flows that channel big bucks into government programs and inner city neighborhoods. The offshoot of this has led to a huge cash infusion for entertainment (Hollywood/record companies), a near religious worship of designer labels, drugs, a disdain for earning an honest living, and resultant criminal behaviour. All we have to show for the 50 year long massive cash redistribution into so called "poor" neighborhoods is a bloated and decadent hip hop industry, "def jam" comedy success, a profileration of NBA/NFL Jerseys, Air Jordans, "pimped" rides, and (in a truly ironic twist) Colombian drug cartels offering to pay off the U.S. National debt. Don't forget to add to that nonsense the ongoing war on utilizing anything remotely resembling a natural resource while allowing our enemies to steal oil from the Gulf and fish our waters to extinction.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a half century of plundering our most precious resources and handcuffing our taxpaying citizenry in an ever expanding cycle will result in our ultimate (and planned) demise.

My generation is getting too old to do anything meaningful about this as the years go on, the media propaganda machine stengthens, and the memory of the cold war dims. I fear for my kids and grandkids because if the trend continues the stalags, purges and "political monitors" will be back sooner than you might think. To me, our only hope is to throw all of the bums out of office. However, I wonder if we will ever see another honest election.

T2x

[boatme]

Rich

I agree and i to fear for my son and for the future of our children and there children

Thank goodness i am only visiting this planet

[Audiofn]

Damn shame that people can be so short sighted

[Trim'd Up]

Well Said Rich!

[Ratickle]

Interesting Rich. I'll have to ponder all that. Then, if no over-load occurs, forward it to every person in my address book...... (with your permission, of course). :sifone:

[Birdog]

You hit that nail on the head !

[T2x]

Interesting Rich. I'll have to ponder all that. Then, if no over-load occurs, forward it to every person in my address book...... (with your permission, of course). :sifone:

Please don't. The last thing I need is to be the author of one of those things that goes world wide.

[Ratickle]

Please don't. The last thing I need is to be the author of one of those things that goes world wide.

Okay, I won't. But it sure is tempting. Maybe you need a secret alias.....:)

[Coach]

Rich,

You've said something there, that's more truthful and points to the real corruption, than anything ever written, on the problems we are all faced with. With your permission I would like to save it in word, and send it to my closest friends and family...

Coach

[Chris]

BTW China is in its last stage of development of a missile that can track a moving ship at 1000 miles away. We cant stop them.

Don't make the same mistake we did with the Soviets. We thought they had incredibly advanced hardware and we chased them with many billions in advanced weapons systems. We came to find out they were barely capable of making a functional coffee maker.

The Chinese are 25 to 40 years behind us in technology. That's not to say they won't catch up more rapidly than it took us to get here, but they'll never catch up. Knowing how to do something is many miles short of actually being able to do it.

Beyond all that, our worry with China isn't military, it's economic. And my biggest fear is China is peaking on the bell curve. It's beginning to cost way more for them to produce. As the nation furter industrializes, their needs change in so many ways- and their costs skyrocket. And that makes them no longer the low-price leader. So business begins to leave while their infrastructure costs leap upward. Pretty soon they're in the same boat we are.

[Geronimo36]

Speaking of taking manufacturing offshore.. From Scorpion, the company who bought Crane. I found this video enlightening. :)
http://scorpionperformance.com/newsite1/

[T2x]

Rich,

You've said something there, that's more truthful and points to the real corruption, than anything ever written, on the problems we are all faced with. With your permission I would like to save it in word, and send it to my closest friends and family...

Coach

just leave my name off of it and use "author anonymous".

[Matt Trulio]

Umm, Rich,

Every MBA I know, and trust me, I know a lot of them, is to a man or woman a diehard, conservative capitalist. They are anything but Marxist (ala communistic) or socialist (ala Lennon). It ain't even close.

Now, maybe Obama has found a lot of left-leaning MBAs to form his economic "braintrust," but they are in no way representative of the average "slick" MBA. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts, if you will, that the overwhelming majority of MBAs vote Republican.

I'm not defending MBAs. Heck, I don't even like most of them. So often, they're just too clever for their own good and they have a lovely way of sucking the spirit out of a company. But it seems that you're painting them to be a bunchy of liberal whack-jobs, and that's just not the case.

As for the rest of your rant ... agree with some, disagree with some, but as always, it's well-considered and fun to read.

[T2x]

Umm, Rich,

Every MBA I know, and trust me, I know a lot of them, is to a man or woman a diehard, conservative capitalist. They are anything but Marxist (ala communistic) or socialist (ala Lennon). It ain't even close.

Now, maybe Obama has found a lot of left-leaning MBAs to form his economic "braintrust," but they are in no way representative of the average "slick" MBA. I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts, if you will, that the overwhelming majority of MBAs vote Republican.

I'm not defending MBAs. Heck, I don't even like most of them. So often, they're just too clever for their own good and they have a lovely way of sucking the spirit out of a company. But it seems that you're painting them to be a bunchy of liberal whack-jobs, and that's just not the case.

As for the rest of your rant ... agree with some, disagree with some, but as always, it's well-considered and fun to read.


Let's just say I know enough MBA's in the investment banking community with political points of view that would curl your hair. Sure they love their BMW's, designer haircuts, and 3 star restaurant experiences, but when you listen to their political logic it is straight out of the "revised history of the west". If you examine their business tactics and ethics...... propaganda, political networking and "The ends justify the means" reigns supreme. Like lambs being fattened for the slaughter many of them are willing participants who boldly back every new social reform in the semi conscious belief that releasing half the prison population and giving constitutional legal protection to foreign terrorists will somehow not affect their upper Eastside Condo life style. Does'nt the term "Limousine Liberal" have the same meaning in Arnold-ornia as it does elsewhere in the U.S.?

[Matt Trulio]

In the end, my friend, they choose limo over liberal. It's just a pose ... and you know it. Limo liberals talk about funding social programs, as long as you don't raise THEIR taxes.

It's a fashionable stance, nothing more. When push comes to shove, they're more interested in profit (and there's nothing wrong with that) that propaganda.

My hair is already quite curled. And for some reason, all the MBAs I know are in the banking community. And all are quite conservative.

And the "ends justifies the means" has been used by Democrats and Republicans alike since day one.

[Matt Trulio]

And I'll say it again, most MBAs are not limo liberals. They're limo conservatives. And now I'm on a mission to back that with fact rather than the few dozen MBAs I actually know.

[Ratickle]

I'll be watching that mission......


I'm gonna say:

MBA's within education are more left leaning (falling over leaning) than right leaning. (Which makes Rich's premise correct).

MBA's in Banking, (I'll PM Charlie), are more right leaning than left.

MBA's in Business are "Me First" leaning, not much consideration for the future and right or left.

MBA's in Law, way left.

MBA's in Politics, are also way left (too many are lawyers).


So, at least there is a slight variation in my mind. :sifone:

[Chris]

The issue we have right now in the country is grassroots facism. Capitalism is small potatoes. To truly get the big paycheck you have to collude with the government. The big banks like Goldman, combined with the interests of our politicians are undermining the basics of capitalism.

I was listening last night to a description of how Star Kist Tuna received significant stimulus money as well as American Samoa (where they're located) was exempted from this recent increase in the minimum wage. Nancy Pelosi's husband owns a significant interest in Star Kist's parent, Dole. Interestingly, Heinz owns a big chunk of Dole. Mrs. John Kerry, Theresa Heinz.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/pelosi/americansamoa.asp

[T2x]

To truly get the big paycheck you have to collude with the government. The big banks like Goldman, combined with the interests of our politicians are undermining the basics of capitalism.

Absolutely........ and, for the record, my point was about our educational system and not the letters after the names of its graduates.

T2x

[Airpacker]

True Chris. The politics of profit has always been the power of corruption.

[Chris]

When we start nationalizing corporations and then choose sides on who get what, things begin to get scary.

Somehow Obama saw fit that the contributions of the investors in General Motors contributions over the years meant nothing but the workers who had been getting paid all along should also get ownership.

It's been a long time since I blew the dust off of my copy of the Constitution, but I seem to vaguely remember something about the government seizing property from its citizens and giving it to others.

[skaterdave]

the funny part that both parties( leftist dems and far right wing REP's) like to leave out of both their arguements is the average guy is screwed!!!

the so-caled left wing leiberals want to start all types of social programs that the right says will cost too much. the left leaves out the part where all the money for these govt programs will get funneled throw their's buddy's businesses ( campaign contributors) which by the time the program does what it was intended for has no money left and has become useless. and of course fox news will cover this and show how bad the dems are.

on the other hand you got the GOP that always promises tax cuts and less govt. and their idea of less govt is of course to appoint their friends to govt agencies designed to protect the taxpayer so as to be able to munipulate the laws and rules to their advantage. mean while they give giant tax breaks to big business and the upper class. then they argue that the socialist dems are going to destroy our country by providing health care. kind of ironic if you ask me since ALL politicans have unrealistic benefit and pension plans after only a few years that most of us couldn't get after working 30+ yrs at are current jobs.

Chris,as for china being 20 yrs behind???? your kidding right? i cant even argue about us as a military power. just look at the afghanistan. how many yrs and were still there?

a rational person would probably ask some questions, like why or whats the point? or maybe look at how we got ourselves in that situtation,but then agian they would be looked at as un-patriotic.

our current govt works about as good as if i were to pay my employees a week ahead of time. and then wonder why no one showed up monday for work.

as for the original post about merc moving, i find it disconcerning that no one has brought up the state govt and what there putting on the table. the right to work states are screwing things up just as much as the unions. i don't know all the facts but from what i've read in some other "big business" moves like this one is that the states wave property tax or other forms of taxation that would normally bring income to the state for the promise of jobs. this is normally where the local politican parades around and shows off his hard work. of course the businesses are going to move there. lower or no taxes and cheap labor. we all know that a factory worker in mich. get paid more and had benefits, were as the same worker in S.C. will be working for far less. the problem i see is that where does that get the average guy. SC will get to put some of its unemployed to work for the same pay as 20 yrs ago and then have to tax the crap out of him to help make up for the state not collecting tax on the business??

[Geronimo36]

Absolutely........ and, for the record, my point was about our educational system and not the letters after the names of its graduates.

T2x

There sure are a lot of liberal professors out there.....:ack2:

[Geronimo36]

Speaking of government intervention.... Don't forget TARP was put together when the Republicans were still in office... The Dem's doubled it in the new year..... It's also worthy of mention that gov't recently earned 20% ROI when one of the big guys paid back the loan. ;)

[Chris]

Chris,as for china being 20 yrs behind???? your kidding right? i cant even argue about us as a military power. just look at the afghanistan. how many yrs and were still there?

As I'm sure you know, we could kill every resident in the region in about an hour. But that's not our goal. Nor would it be consistent with anything you'd consider to be "American" about our country. Our goal is to root out an insurgency without ruining the lives of the people that live in the country. If Afghanistan had an actual army, we could mow through them in a light afternoon. We wouldn't even have to set our beers down.

As far as China, their technological advancement has propelled them to achieve the capability of actually landing an unmanned probe on the Moon. I was in grade school in the 60's and I remember us sticking actual people up there- repeatedly. And then we brought them home. Technologically, China has virtually nothing. They have alot of infantry though.

I can draw you a picture of how to make a nuclear weapon. But you can't do it. Neither can I. It's tough. And lobbing a missile across continents and hitting something the size of a suburban backyard is even tougher. I got to see first-hand alot of the absolute crap the Soviets built. And they're the people China gets their crap from. If you ever get the chance to see some of it, you'd enjoy a good laugh.

[Ratickle]

Speaking of government intervention.... Don't forget TARP was put together when the Republicans were still in office... The Dem's doubled it in the new year..... It's also worthy of mention that gov't recently earned 20% ROI when one of the big guys paid back the loan. ;)

If you're talking about Goldman, check to see what money they received from the Government to make the profit to pay back the loan......


Another BS handout, hidden in the books by managing AIG.

[PARADOX]

I would love to get into this, but I don't want to get my blood boiling. Especcially since I was involved with the unions in the midwest, West and East coast in the construction industry. Let me just say that they are WORTHLESS. All the union leaders wanted is their Caddy and bribes. The tradesmen were mostly lazy and worthless dead weight milking the company.
Biggest problem is our philosophical views and education. There is NO education in the US.
While the worlds is getting smaller, our policies (both parties) is self interest driven instead of outlook to the future .

However here is a appropriate bumper sticker and I agree with it.
38947

[T2x]

Speaking of government intervention.... Don't forget TARP was put together when the Republicans were still in office... The Dem's doubled it in the new year..... It's also worthy of mention that gov't recently earned 20% ROI when one of the big guys paid back the loan. ;)


The fact is that we really don't have a choice of political parties. The Democrats are, in fact, the party of the left. As we have seen from recent news (Arlen Spector, et al) there are enough left/liberal big government spenders in the Republican party so as to completely neuter them as well.

What the voter needs (deserves) is a clearer delineation, i.e The Liberal/Socialist Party and The Conservative Party and skip the rest. There are far too many conservatives who are life long Democrats and get hoodwinked by tradition. There are also far too many people who think Republicans are conservatives..... not true in many cases... see Arnold, Bloomberg, Spector (until recently) and McCain. None of those four remotely resembles a conservative although you have a war hero, a billionaire, and an action movie star in the mix.

What the voters don't do is LISTEN TO and Research what their candidates stand for. If a guy is a Republican many people picture him or her in a Daddy Warbucks suit holding a big cigar and pushing "Big Business". In most cases all he or she is really doing is mouthing code words and pushing programs that are designed to gain votes. A good case in point is the current health care debate. The Democrats want Socialized medicine and the Republicans are against it....unless they get "compromises" and "involvement. In fact, they should object to the whole damn concept as just another example of a "free money" scam on the taxpayer.

At the end of the day...and to bring this back on track.... Mercury Marine and the entire industry is a victim of the simple fact that the government (both Republicans and Democrats) has sold the taxpayer out and diverted too much money away from the wage earner for him or her to buy a boat (or an RV, ocean cruise, motorcycle, home, etc). The unions can b*tch all they want, but without consumer income to fuel sales the whole damn industry and economy will continue to decline.

I think we should retitle this thread.... "Economics for Dummys and Democrats".

T2x

[catastrophe]

Forgetting all the rhetoric here, is the title of this thread accurate.?

Is Mercury in fact moving, or is all this pure speculation on everyones part.?

[T2x]

Forgetting all the rhetoric here, is the title of this thread accurate.?

Is Mercury in fact moving, or is all this pure speculation on everyones part.?


Mercury has announced a shut down in Wisconsin, but is currently in negotation with their unions to try and avoid the job losses in the Fox River Valley. The fact is that there have been extensive plant closings at Mercury for periods up to and over 30 days at a time in addition to many layoffs.

T2x

[Matt Trulio]

Ratickle and Rich,

Got to push off that little research project for a bit. I have a deadline to hit and hitting my deadlines is really, really helpful when it comes to getting paid.

Though I do a little charity work here and there, I am, first and foremost, a capitalist.

Good thread, guys. Took a political turn, but it's hard to discuss anything related to unions without going that way.

[Ratickle]

Ratickle and Rich,

Got to push off that little research project for a bit. I have a deadline to hit and hitting my deadlines is really, really helpful when it comes to getting paid.

Though I do a little charity work here and there, I am, first and foremost, a capitalist.

Good thread, guys. Took a political turn, but it's hard to discuss anything related to unions without going that way.

We'll wait.........:sifone:


ANd unions are political, every one......

[Geronimo36]

Although some of the board members wouldn't mind seeing Merc leave Fon du Lac, I think it's in the greater common interest to have them stay there and work things out. I just hope the union realizes that because they're playing all-in poker with a weak hand and I think Mercury called their bluff...

[Matt Trulio]

No definitive answers to be found in any online searches I can muster.

My friend Rich asserts there is a "huge workforce of MBAs brainwashed with Marxist pap." He asserts this based on his experience and the people with MBAs he knows.

Fair enough.

I assert there is no such "huge workforce" of such MBAs in existence. I assert this based on my experience and the MBAs I know, all of whom are conservative.

Fair enough?

Now, does it really come down to who knows the most MBAs? I don't think so. I don't think Rich thinks so.

On this Rich and I agree quite completely: The differences between liberal and conservative, at least in terms of our Republican and Democratic leaders, is negligible, with the exception of the ultra left (guys like Nader) and ultra right (guys like LaRouche).

Again, good thread. I far from agree with every point of view, liberal or conservative, presented here. But the discourse, and our right, to have it, rocks.

[T2x]

No definitive answers to be found in any online searches I can muster.

My friend Rich asserts there is a "huge workforce of MBAs brainwashed with Marxist pap." He asserts this based on his experience and the people with MBAs he knows.

Fair enough.

I assert there is no such "huge workforce" of such MBAs in existence. I assert this based on my experience and the MBAs I know, all of whom are conservative.

Fair enough?

Now, does it really come down to who knows the most MBAs? I don't think so. I don't think Rich thinks so.

On this Rich and I agree quite completely: The differences between liberal and conservative, at least in terms of our Republican and Democratic leaders, is negligible, with the exception of the ultra left (guys like Nader) and ultra right (guys like LaRouche).

Again, good thread. I far from agree with every point of view, liberal or conservative, presented here. But the discourse, and our right, to have it, rocks.

I concur. I have always maintained that I may not agree with someone's views, but I will gladly give his life for his right to state them. :D

T2x

[T2x]

I far from agree with every point of view, liberal or conservative, presented here.

You have to admire a guy who takes a firm stand and draws a clear line in the sand. ;) :p :D

[Ratickle]

"More business decisions occur over lunch and dinner than at any other time, yet no MBA courses are given on the subject." ~ Peter Drucker


Since you came up with nothing, I'll go with some Drucker stuff.

One of the things he added later in life to his dislike of the American MBA system was, the inability of it to teach decision making skills. Welch may have been one of his most renowned disciples.

He lamented the fact that MBA Business schools taught how to discern problems, how to ask questions, and how to review facts. But none of them taught how to make decisions. It was this reasoning that led him to say towards the end of his life that American MBA programs was the most useless piece of paper, and would lead to the downfall, of the American businesses superiority around the world.

Maybe because they are all liberals?????:sifone:

[rbhudelson]

I try not to paint things with a single, broad brush. It seems short sighted to me. Anytime someone says "the problem with" (healthcare, government, economy, MBA's....) I chuckle. Unfortunately, you can't just point at "the problem" due to the multifaceted nature of complex systems and the causal relationships they hold with one another.

I respectfully disagree with any premise that says a man or woman can be converted to liberalism or conservatism just by going to school. Most people have their own beliefs and while these beliefs can be (altered) by outside forces it is hard to just accept someone else's beliefs in there entirety. I walked into college a God fearing, Rush Limbaugh conservative heterosexual and exited an atheistic socialist homo. People are different and process the world different. And just because they don't believe the way I do doesn't make them wrong....

But, I'm just an insurance salesman so I could be wrong :)

[Ratickle]

I walked into college a God fearing, Rush Limbaugh conservative heterosexual and exited an atheistic socialist homo.


So that's what happened......:sifone:

[T2x]

Unfortunately, you can't just point at "the problem" due to the multifaceted nature of complex systems and the causal relationships they hold with one another.

On the other hand if you have enough government committees involved, a black and white issue quickly deteriorates into a matter of "choice and environment". As a result nothing gets done.

Political discussion is the mother of absurdity.

Each election yields thousands of politicians who are put into some office or other. Every one of these empty suits is responsible to a "constituency". Each "public servant" wants to do something and get "credit" for it in order to be re-elected. The only thing that they can do is inact "legislation" (More laws). Since this has been going on in an ever increasing volume for hundreds of years....we have , no doubt, created more laws than a thousand planets could ever need. Given that the original purpose of government is to 1. protect the citizenry from outside aggression and internal criminality (military and police), 2. Take care of roads, bridges and highways, 3. Oversee public utilities, and 4. Provide for the general welfare, it would appear that we have stretched those basic mandates in bizarre, unrecognizable and ridiculously costly ways while accomodating the gnawing desire to "legislate".

As a result we have a bloated, unworkable system, populated by the worst that our society has to offer. This system is supported and allowed to flourish as a result of voters accepting tired maxims like "you can't just point at "the problem" due to the multifaceted nature of complex systems and the causal relationships they hold with one another", instead of reducing government to simple goals....and simple answers. In spite of the time wasted crafting 1000 page bills for congress....most problems can and should be explained in a simple factual Q&A outline. If something takes 1000 pages to address....it is certainly too complicated to succeed. While this may offend some of your intellectual sensibilities, in reality, the smartest people I know are the ones who convey deep thought with minimum verbage.

T2x

[Sea-Dated]

Although some of the board members wouldn't mind seeing Merc leave Fon du Lac, I think it's in the greater common interest to have them stay there and work things out. I just hope the union realizes that because they're playing all-in poker with a weak hand and I think Mercury called their bluff...

Why would it be an advantage for them to stay in Fon du Lac? If they are located somewhere else, putting out the same product for the same price, how does it benefit anyone but Fon du Lac for them t stay there.

Especially if they relocated and could get an experienced, cheaper workforce without the unions and therefor put out the same product for lower cost to the consumer?

[Ratickle]

Why would it be an advantage for them to stay in Fon du Lac? If they are located somewhere else, putting out the same product for the same price, how does it benefit anyone but Fon du Lac for them t stay there.

Especially if they relocated and could get an experienced, cheaper workforce without the unions and therefor put out the same product for lower cost to the consumer?

I hate it when I have no answer and need to think. Knock it off.......:sifone:

[T2x]

Why would it be an advantage for them to stay in Fon du Lac? If they are located somewhere else, putting out the same product for the same price, how does it benefit anyone but Fon du Lac for them t stay there.

Especially if they relocated and could get an experienced, cheaper workforce without the unions and therefor put out the same product for lower cost to the consumer?

Great question....aside from the tradition in Eastern Wisconsin and the families that grew up bleeding Mercury black.....there is no compelling business reason. This is much like Detroit losing all those automotive jobs to the Southern states, after so many workers moved north decades before.

[Bobcat]

if they move the prices will not go down because of a cheaper work force, profits will go up though.

[Ratickle]

if they move the prices will not go down because of a cheaper work force, profits will go up though.

And the long term survival likliness of the corporation. Because profits cause research and developement.

[Geronimo36]

Why would it be an advantage for them to stay in Fon du Lac? If they are located somewhere else, putting out the same product for the same price, how does it benefit anyone but Fon du Lac for them t stay there.

Especially if they relocated and could get an experienced, cheaper workforce without the unions and therefor put out the same product for lower cost to the consumer?

It's in the best interest of the workers to work things out so they have jobs and in these times I don't like seeing people loose jobs... I don't subscribe to the one mans loss is another mans gain mentality.

I could see how for you, since you live there, it would be cool but by the same token they could do it in Mexico for a fraction of the cost. ;)

Frank

[Bobcat]

And the long term survival likliness of the corporation. Because profits cause research and developement.

400 million on jet ski??:ack2:

[Geronimo36]

Also, if terms can be met it's behooves the corporation to stay because moving costs money and moving isn't always the answer...

Enter BRAC with the military... New studies show it's not saving them, in fact it might cost more or if they're lucky break even....

[cosmic12]

I have been reading this and for the most part staying out of it. Its great that we can have this and try to understand each other.
Aside from the politics of it all I can see where the union will probly be the end of Merc being there, that said I can tell you that the city I live in has been killed by them along with New York State Taxes. This used to be a big MFGing city and had a great place to live and work(aside from the winters) now there is nothing and the last couple that are left are fighting with the unions to at least let things ride for awhile and the people that I talk to that are part of said unions want that also but the powers inside the unions won't listen to anyone but themselves and keep asking the state to do something to which they have and offered tax breaks and such if the unions put something on the table and they don't seem to get it at all. And in the end loose the jobs the city and state loose people and the tax base. I feel sorry for both sides of this and just like anything else Merc has to do whats best for Merc.

[rbhudelson]

As a result we have a bloated, unworkable system, populated by the worst that our society has to offer. This system is supported and allowed to flourish as a result of voters accepting tired maxims like "you can't just point at "the problem" due to the multifaceted nature of complex systems and the causal relationships they hold with one another", instead of reducing government to simple goals....and simple answers. In spite of the time wasted crafting 1000 page bills for congress....most problems can and should be explained in a simple factual Q&A outline. If something takes 1000 pages to address....it is certainly too complicated to succeed. While this may offend some of your intellectual sensibilities, in reality, the smartest people I know are the ones who convey deep thought with minimum verbage.

T2x

Well then I guess I should thank you for letting me live in your world because obviously your point of view is all that matters or is right. So thank you.

With that out of the way, I'm just not sure what problems you are referring to that (can and should be explained) in a simple factual Q&A outline. I guess one of the things that concerns me is whom gets to produce this Q&A (factual) outline and unless it is me, do I have to take it for the gospel? After reading your posts I can't believe you could believe anything that anyone writes that boils a complicated problem down to it's simplest, most easy to understand form - unless it is you providing the answers. But, I get that, I'm the same way. But if this thread is any indication of how that process would work - we are in trouble. Because if you are the one providing the answers, I don't buy them; and conversely, if I am providing the answers you are further away from buying them than I am yours. So unless one of us is appointed the benevolent dictator, what do we do? If we are living under our form of government, we have to do something that more than likely drives you nuts - we compromise.

I agree with you that government is too big and is trying to gain more and more access into my personal life. I don't like it either. As I stated in my first post, my preference would be to move our form of government to a dictatorship - as long as I am the dictator. We could get some problems solved then.

And just as a side note, I kind of thought the tired maxim like "you can't just point at "the problem" due to the multifaceted nature of complex systems and the causal relationships they hold with one another" was conveying a deep thought with minimum verbiage. But, I'm not really all that surprised, or upset, that you didn't like it. I respect your right to your opinion, even if it doesn't match mine.

[T2x]

Well then I guess I should thank you for letting me live in your world because obviously your point of view is all that matters or is right. So thank you.

With that out of the way, I'm just not sure what problems you are referring to that (can and should be explained) in a simple factual Q&A outline. I guess one of the things that concerns me is whom gets to produce this Q&A (factual) outline and unless it is me, do I have to take it for the gospel? After reading your posts I can't believe you could believe anything that anyone writes that boils a complicated problem down to it's simplest, most easy to understand form - unless it is you providing the answers. But, I get that, I'm the same way. But if this thread is any indication of how that process would work - we are in trouble. Because if you are the one providing the answers, I don't buy them; and conversely, if I am providing the answers you are further away from buying them than I am yours. So unless one of us is appointed the benevolent dictator, what do we do? If we are living under our form of government, we have to do something that more than likely drives you nuts - we compromise.

I agree with you that government is too big and is trying to gain more and more access into my personal life. I don't like it either. As I stated in my first post, my preference would be to move our form of government to a dictatorship - as long as I am the dictator. We could get some problems solved then.

And just as a side note, I kind of thought the tired maxim like "you can't just point at "the problem" due to the multifaceted nature of complex systems and the causal relationships they hold with one another" was conveying a deep thought with minimum verbiage. But, I'm not really all that surprised, or upset, that you didn't like it. I respect your right to your opinion, even if it doesn't match mine.

I'm certainly not advocating "My way or the highway". I am, however, standing inflexibly against big government and false issues. Just like unity in offshore racing, I have no particular interest in how it get's done or whose feathers get ruffled. The same dynamics apply....if too much noise is allowed in you lose track of the original goal.

T2x

[Matt Trulio]

My father is a physicist (odd as hell but brilliant) who ran a think tank for more than 30 years. The only thing on his giant conference blackboard that never got erased was a saying:

"There are two types of ideas: simple and confused."

Of course, what was "simple" to him was like rocket science (OK, it WAS rocket) science to most of us. But you guys get the idea.

And yes, before you characters get started, that kind of intelligence has been known to skip a generation.

[T2x]

My father is a physicist (odd as hell but brilliant) who ran a think tank for more than 30 years. The only thing on his giant conference blackboard that never got erased was a saying:

"There are two types of ideas: simple and confused."

Of course, what was "simple" to him was like rocket science (OK, it WAS rocket) science to most of us. But you guys get the idea.

And yes, before you characters get started, that kind of intelligence has been known to skip a generation.

I like your father and I never even met him........... and don't underestimate your intellect.

Why just the other day I was thinking : "That Trulio, he's a pretty good writer,......... for a physicist." :D :D

[Mike A.]

And yes, before you characters get started, that kind of intelligence has been known to skip a generation.

Same thing with baldness...:sifone:

[T2x]

Same thing with baldness...:sifone:

and you're a pretty funny guy......for a lawyer.

[Brad]

Same thing with baldness...:sifone:
Not if my family unfortunately:(

[Ratickle]

One of my favorite quotes was the bill hadn't been read because the guy who was gonna vote to approve it needed 4 or 5 PHD's to explain it to him. And he saw nothing wrong with that.:ack2:

[MacGyver]

Here's an aerial view of the Fond du Lac plant. I'd hate to see this place go vacant. Click on the "birds eye" tab and look around. Huge facility.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=43.756697~-88.466882&style=h&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

[Ratickle]

I hope it doesn't close either. But if the Union doesn't give, I just don't see where Merc has a choice. At least they are talking about Oklahoma instead of Mexico or China.

[TMS1155]

Here's an aerial view of the Fond du Lac plant. I'd hate to see this place go vacant. Click on the "birds eye" tab and look around. Huge facility.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=43.756697~-88.466882&style=h&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

And each of those cars represents a possible unemployed worker. WTF are they thinking, or are they.

[Ratickle]

Coldn't find exact, but here is Milwaukee compared to Lawton

Cost of Living at Home Typical Salary at Work $35,000


Current Location Milwaukee, WI (Edit) Milwaukee, WI (Edit)

New Location Lawton, OK (Edit) Lawton, OK (Edit)

Percent Change in $ -12.2% -17.1%

Explanation The cost of living in Lawton, OK is 12.2% lower than in Milwaukee, WI. Therefore, you would have to earn a salary of $30,745 to maintain your current standard of living. Employers in Lawton, OK typically pay 17.1% less than employers in Milwaukee, WI. Therefore, if you take the same type of job in the same type of company in Lawton, OK you are likely to earn $29,015.

[MacGyver]

Mercury's President was on the news tonight. Basically he said the future of Mercury in Fond du Lac will be determined by Sunday's vote. Unfortunately the union rep is calling Mercury's offer "trash" and insisting that all members vote no.

Just phucking stupid......

[Ratickle]

Does anyone know exactly what concessions are being requested?

[MacGyver]

Does anyone know exactly what concessions are being requested?

It's over 100+ I'll see what I can do.

[MacGyver]

Damn, I can't find a detailed list of the concessions. I'll keep looking.

[MacGyver]

Tonights news said 170+ concessions.

[T2x]

Very rarely do they divulge concessions to the public. The union generally doesn't want the details of their contracts made public. In many cases the outcry would be deafening.

T2x

[RLJ676]

Very rarely do they divulge concessions to the public. The union generally doesn't want the details of their contracts made public. In many cases the outcry would be deafening.

T2x

Over what they're getting to start with, or what they are being asked to give up?

[Ratickle]

I was curious as to what percent they were being asked to give up in wages and benefits. If Oklahoma is 17% average less pay, that's probably the starting point for wage concessions requested.

[MarylandMark]

SEI Bravo 1 outdrive with fault free 3 year warranty for $895 (http://www.sterndrive.cc/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=MercruiserBravoSterndrive)

“In fact, we feel so strongly about the quality of our drives that we have extended our warranty to a three-year, fault-free warranty. This warranty covers any type of damage that requires the drive to be repaired or replaced including hitting underwater objects, sucking up fishing line, or even dragging the drive up a launch. It's all covered, no questions asked.”

Mercury who?

[BUIZILLA]

170 concessions is 169 too many.... phuck the union

[Geronimo36]

I was curious as to what percent they were being asked to give up in wages and benefits. If Oklahoma is 17% average less pay, that's probably the starting point for wage concessions requested.

Could be! Even half that would be a good start and the other half is probably what it would cost them to move. Does Wisconsin have an exit tax like NJ?

Canon just cut 10% across the board for all employess and 15% for executives.

[Ratickle]

Could be! Even half that would be a good start and the other half is probably what it would cost them to move. Does Wisconsin have an exit tax like NJ?

Canon just cut 10% across the board for all employess and 15% for executives.

YRC cut their employees 15% also. Will probably still go bankrupt though according to those who are supposed to know.

[insanity]

Here's an aerial view of the Fond du Lac plant. I'd hate to see this place go vacant. Click on the "birds eye" tab and look around. Huge facility.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=43.756697~-88.466882&style=h&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

Where is Lake X?

[Audiofn]

I walked into college a God fearing, Rush Limbaugh conservative heterosexual and exited an atheistic socialist homo.

We know, you use an Apple. :26::rofl::sifone:

[Scarab KV]

Why would it be an advantage for them to stay in Fon du Lac? If they are located somewhere else, putting out the same product for the same price, how does it benefit anyone but Fon du Lac for them t stay there.

Especially if they relocated and could get an experienced, cheaper workforce without the unions and therefor put out the same product for lower cost to the consumer?

There were a lot of factors that had to be figured into the equation for the long run.
Cost of expanding the Stillwater facility to house all production was huge.
Renovation of some of the existing Stillwater facility. For example, all Stillwater R&D is spose to be, if not already moved to Fond du Lac due to aging and inadequate equipment. The test tanks need to replaced at the cost of 4 million dollars alone. Production efficiency in Stillwater is considerably lower then Fond du Lac. Proximity to industrial centers, shipping hubs and vendors. Contract work for other manufacturers. The foundry at Fond du Lac does a lot of casting for Harley Davidson and others.

[Scarab KV]

Here's an aerial view of the Fond du Lac plant. I'd hate to see this place go vacant. Click on the "birds eye" tab and look around. Huge facility.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=43.756697~-88.466882&style=h&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

...and right across the street is my store:D

[Scarab KV]

And each of those cars represents a possible unemployed worker. WTF are they thinking, or are they.

That's a recent photo. The lot is only 1/2 full compared to 3 years ago.
BTW....the big plant across the street (foundry) is also part of Mercury.

[Scarab KV]

Where is Lake X?

Roughly 6,600,000 feet south of the Fond du Lac facility:D

[Scarab KV]

Here's a link to the final proposal and other info
http://www.fdlreporter.com/article/20090820/FON0101/90820121/1985

[Scarab KV]

Wife said there was something on the news about a high number of employees that will be retiring soon, were told if they vote in the unions's favor they can retire early with a buy out. If they vote against the union, they lose their pension. She only caught the tail end of the story.

[Ratickle]

Here's a link to the final proposal and other info
http://www.fdlreporter.com/article/20090820/FON0101/90820121/1985

Hmmmmmm......


The biggest difference is the reduction for new hires it looks like.

[T2x]

Over what they're getting to start with, or what they are being asked to give up?

Over what they are getting to start with.

The Typesetters Union in NY went on strike and the newspapers wouldn't publish the details..... (truck drivers at $150,000+, typesetters sleeping the entire shift because the automated printing presses had reduced labor needed to virtually zero but jobs could not be eliminated, printers working 3 consecutive shifts daily at 3 separate newspapers while sleeping at each job.....etc). This followed a long tradition of the media (in most cases also unionized)..... failing to detail actual contract terms. You will see "sticking points" generally preceeded by "Management refuses to............." and a lot of nonsense like "Fat cats living off the backs of the workers.....".

I've been directly involved in many Teamster and Longshoreman trucking negotiations and what ultimately loosened their stranglehold was (ironically) Ted Kennedy's trucking deregulation bill. This allowed open (mostly non union) entry into the industry in 1980. Since then the union has fallen mightily, along with its organized crime muscle, and threats to "paralyze the highways.....and break your legs".

Prior to that it was basically a free for all of thuggery, murders, no show jobs, time theft, payoffs, and work rules that would make you puke. In one instance the terminal manager was not allowed in the shop steward's office and that same terminal had a huge numbers operation operating out of the permanently placed 24 hour lunch wagon (with a nod from the Teamsters local). If you want a little more insight....google "Tony Provenzano".

[T2x]

YRC cut their employees 15% also. Will probably still go bankrupt though according to those who are supposed to know.

They will, but not before dragging pricing down industry wide........

A classic example of a Dinosaur trying to survive in the ice age.

[Ratickle]

They will, but not before dragging pricing down industry wide........

A classic example of a Dinosaur trying to survive in the ice age.


Good analogy.

Associated Press

August 12, 2009

Workers' wage concessions won't be enough to help YRC Worldwide Inc. avoid bankruptcy in the long term, an analyst said Wednesday as he downgraded the trucker.

Analyst David Ross of Stifel Nicolaus lowered his rating on the Overland Park, Kan.-based company to "Sell" from "Hold."

Shares fell 20 cents, or nearly 9 percent, to $2.10 in premarket trading. The stock has ranged from 89 cents to $20.53 over the past year.

Ross wrote in a client note he does not believe a plan approved last Friday by workers to cut wages and make other concessions will be a long-term fix for the company's "financial, operational and competitive problems."

Bankruptcy is not imminent, he said, "but we do believe it is becoming increasingly likely." YRC Worldwide should remain in business probably at least into this year's fourth quarter, Ross said.

"While we have tried to be more constructive on YRC, as many have piled on the bankruptcy bandwagon, and have looked for ways the company could survive, the seemingly constant need to amend its credit agreement and continued failure to meet already dismal cash flow and earnings expectations leads us to believe there is no 'turn' around the corner," he said.

Workers represented by the Teamsters union ratified the plan to cut their wages by an additional 5 percent and forfeit company pension contributions for 18 months. The agreement is widely believed to be a necessary step to stave off bankruptcy.

YRC Worldwide, which runs trucks under New Penn, Yellow and Roadway names, expects the deal to save it $45 million to $50 million a month, or about $1.2 billion through the remainder of the workers' contracts.

Ross said that if YRC Worldwide survives through 2010, it would likely be through a Chapter 11 restructuring in which debt holders would own the company.

YRC had no immediate comment Wednesday morning.

[rbhudelson]

We know, you use an Apple. :26::rofl::sifone:

Not that there is anything wrong with that...


There were a lot of factors that had to be figured into the equation for the long run.
Cost of expanding the Stillwater facility to house all production was huge.
Renovation of some of the existing Stillwater facility. For example, all Stillwater R&D is spose to be, if not already moved to Fond du Lac due to aging and inadequate equipment. The test tanks need to replaced at the cost of 4 million dollars alone. Production efficiency in Stillwater is considerably lower then Fond du Lac. Proximity to industrial centers, shipping hubs and vendors. Contract work for other manufacturers. The foundry at Fond du Lac does a lot of casting for Harley Davidson and others.

But there is a difference in how capital expenditures are counted against earnings. So even if they had to spend $100 million in capital to renovate/build/move it could still easily have a positive impact to earnings by the reduction of direct expense. It seems the foundry could live on its own and doesn't have to be part of this deal. So they could keep operating it or sell it off.

I wouldn't worry too much about shipping hubs, industrial centers and vendors. T-Bone Pickens paved all the roads around Stillwater when he was doing all the upgrades at OSU. You only have to travel a couple of hours east to find Walmart. They do a little shipping themselves. The vendors will already have the read carpet out to welcome Mercury to wherever they move.

[Ratickle]

Not that there is anything wrong with that...



But there is a difference in how capital expenditures are counted against earnings. So even if they had to spend $100 million in capital to renovate/build/move it could still easily have a positive impact to earnings by the reduction of direct expense. It seems the foundry could live on its own and doesn't have to be part of this deal. So they could keep operating it or sell it off.

I wouldn't worry too much about shipping hubs, industrial centers and vendors. T-Bone Pickens paved all the roads around Stillwater when he was doing all the upgrades at OSU. You only have to travel a couple of hours east to find Walmart. They do a little shipping themselves. The vendors will already have the read carpet out to welcome Mercury to wherever they move.

The foundry there is cool. Would love to have had their ergonomic arm in either of the foundries I've run.

[T2x]

But there is a difference in how capital expenditures are counted against earnings. So even if they had to spend $100 million in capital to renovate/build/move it could still easily have a positive impact to earnings by the reduction of direct expense. It seems the foundry could live on its own and doesn't have to be part of this deal. So they could keep operating it or sell it off.

I wouldn't worry too much about shipping hubs, industrial centers and vendors. T-Bone Pickens paved all the roads around Stillwater when he was doing all the upgrades at OSU. You only have to travel a couple of hours east to find Walmart. They do a little shipping themselves. The vendors will already have the read carpet out to welcome Mercury to wherever they move.

If you look at industry sales trends you really have to question if Mercury would need to expand the Stillwater facilities at all.

T2x

[Geronimo36]

There were a lot of factors that had to be figured into the equation for the long run.
Cost of expanding the Stillwater facility to house all production was huge.
Renovation of some of the existing Stillwater facility. For example, all Stillwater R&D is spose to be, if not already moved to Fond du Lac due to aging and inadequate equipment. The test tanks need to replaced at the cost of 4 million dollars alone. Production efficiency in Stillwater is considerably lower then Fond du Lac. Proximity to industrial centers, shipping hubs and vendors. Contract work for other manufacturers. The foundry at Fond du Lac does a lot of casting for Harley Davidson and others.

Like I said, moving isn't always cheaper! ;)

[Geronimo36]

Prior to that it was basically a free for all of thuggery, murders, no show jobs, time theft, payoffs, and work rules that would make you puke. In one instance the terminal manager was not allowed in the shop steward's office and that same terminal had a huge numbers operation operating out of the permanently placed 24 hour lunch wagon (with a nod from the Teamsters local). If you want a little more insight....google "Tony Provenzano".

Back in the 80's my father was approached by the Conti's, they wanted him to be a part of their dubachery... He declined..... and so did his business... :(

[Ratickle]

Interesting you should say that. The stats are alarmingly worse. The changes in stats to lie (yes lie) about the condition of the economy, and say how wonderful we're fixing things, is astonishing.


Friday, August 07, 2009



BARACK OBAMA

So What's the Real Unemployment Rate?


Hmm. In June, the Bureau of Labor Statistics said the civilian labor force was 154,926,000 people.

In July, 796,000 of those were taken out of their definition of the workforce, and thus their unemployment calculations for this month, because they have stopped looking for work "because they believe no jobs are available for them." Ten percent of the June workforce would be 15.4 million, 1 percent would be 1.5 million, and so 796,000 is roughly one half of one percent.

In other words, BLS took .5 percent of what you and I would consider unemployed and took them out of their total. And with that, unemployment went down one tenth of one percent.

Of course, if you take the July number of unemployed, 14.5 million, and add that 796,000 of discouraged workers, you get a total of 15,296,000.

In a work force of July’s number of 154,504,000, that’s an unemployment rate of 9.9 percent.

In a work force of June’s number of 154,926,000, that’s an unemployment rate of 9.8 percent.

The BLS definition of "unemployed" is working out in an extremely convenient manner for the Obama administration. Roughly 800,000 people who want jobs and can't find any disappeared off the books.

The unemployment rate declined from month to month, even though the total number of Americans employed with a job decreased. If you don't find that a signal that the happy headlines are misleading, I don't know what else to tell you.

[Geronimo36]

The latest from IBI;

Mercury President: Fond du Lac manufacturing hinges on Sunday's union vote

By IBI Magazine

The fate of Mercury Marine's manufacturing operations in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, will be determined by its union's vote on Sunday. Mercury President Mark Schwabero said in a Thursday press conference that if the 838 union members reject the proposed contract changes, the "population of workers in Fond du Lac will decline."

Union officials of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, who spent several weeks negotiating with Mercury before talks ended with no agreement, told local media that they would vote "no" on the contract. One union leader called it "trash."

Union workers will now have a chance to vote for the revised contract, which includes changes regarding wages, benefits and operational flexibility.

"Those changes would allow us to be more competitive in those areas," said Schwabero. "We've done a lot of internal restructuring, but in spite of all that cost-cutting, we need to rationalize our manufacturing operations." The company has cut about 40 per cent of its non-union workforce over the last two years.

Schwabero said if the union rejects the revised contract, then Fond du Lac manufacturing would remain a "higher-cost" facility than its MerCruiser plant in Stillwater, Oklahoma.

Schwabero said that both plants' current capacities are running from 15 to 40 per cent, so it would make sense to consolidate operations."We believe that the boating industry will stay at a reduced level and that the recovery will be slower than in the past," he said. "If the union votes no, we would not move work into a higher cost location like Fond du Lac, and over time, jobs would move out to other lower-cost locations." But if union ratifies the contract, he added, Fond du Lac would be considered a "cost-competitive" location.

Even if the union votes no, and manufacturing is closed down in Fond du Lac, Mercury could retain it as its corporate headquarters, with limited manufacturing, customer service, IT and other functions. Schwabero added that, if the union rejects the proposed changes, the company would honor the existing contract, which still has about three years to run.

A "yes" vote on Sunday would mean that the current number of manufacturing jobs would remain in Fond du Lac, said Schwabero, and that more manufacturing jobs from Stillwater might end up there. "The impact on Stillwater would remain to be seen," said Schwabero. "We're more focused on getting Fond du Lac more competitive. We'll know after the vote."

Union leaders told local news sources that Mercury is disseminating half-truths about the contract. "He alluded to the fact that nobody would be losing any money that is here now, and that's just not true," union negotiator Russell Krings told WBAY. "I mean, they're going to be paying our vacation different, they're going to be taking some holidays away from us, our health care will be going up."

Union coordinate Dan Longsine added: "When I get up in front, I will not tell somebody else how to vote. Personally, I will vote no on this trash that the company has offered our employees."

Under the new contract, said Schwabero, current workers would not see a reduction in wages, though there would be fewer vacation days and any new hires or rehired employees would enter at a lower wage scale. But he said that salary level is "competitive" for the Fox Valley area. The proposals for "operational flexibility" would allow the company to respond better to changing market conditions. "Right now, we have 58 job classifications, and our proposal would bring that down to 11," he said. "It's the same flexibility we have in many of our other manufacturing locations. That agility is critical going forward."

Schwabero said a final decision on Mercury's future will be made by "summer's end."



(21 August 2009)

[rbhudelson]

Wife said there was something on the news about a high number of employees that will be retiring soon, were told if they vote in the unions's favor they can retire early with a buy out. If they vote against the union, they lose their pension. She only caught the tail end of the story.

I'm not sure I believe this but if it is remotely true, the no vote is fait accompli.


Real Men of Genius Union coordinate Dan Longsine added: "When I get up in front, I will not tell somebody else how to vote. Personally, I will vote no on this trash that the company has offered our employees."

[masher44]

Not that there is anything wrong with that...



But there is a difference in how capital expenditures are counted against earnings. So even if they had to spend $100 million in capital to renovate/build/move it could still easily have a positive impact to earnings by the reduction of direct expense. It seems the foundry could live on its own and doesn't have to be part of this deal. So they could keep operating it or sell it off.

I wouldn't worry too much about shipping hubs, industrial centers and vendors. T-Bone Pickens paved all the roads around Stillwater when he was doing all the upgrades at OSU. You only have to travel a couple of hours east to find Walmart. They do a little shipping themselves. The vendors will already have the read carpet out to welcome Mercury to wherever they move.


get your chapstick out for some HR work you ass kisser :kiss:

[Sea-Dated]

get your chapstick out for some HR work you ass kisser :kiss:


Move more jobs to Stillwater and they may want to buy land to build on at Grand. Get out your chapstick too if they move here.....:sifone:

[Spine Tingler]

Move more jobs to Stillwater and they may want to buy land to build on at Grand. Get out your chapstick too if they move here.....:sifone:

I can do their #6 drive testing for them.:seeya::driving:

[Sea-Dated]

I can do their #6 drive testing for them.:seeya::driving:

:eek::eek:

That would be some good R&D right there......:sifone:

[MacGyver]

Like I said, moving isn't always cheaper! ;)

Oklahoma would pay 100% of Mercury's moving costs :leaving:

[Scarab KV]

I'm not sure I believe this but if it is remotely true, the no vote is fait accompli.




She just caught the tail end of it on the news. They were talking about optional buy out vs loss of pension if the vote did or didn't go through. Maybe it was speculation or she misinterpreted from what little she caught of it.

Wait.....did I just insinuate that the media would speculate??:eek:

[Pete]

Where is Lake X?

Use to be east of St. Cloud in Fla. till they shut it down.

[MacGyver]

Todays the big vote day. Hopefully they vote to keep their jobs.

[Geronimo36]

Oklahoma would pay 100% of Mercury's moving costs :leaving:

wow, they sure are sweetening the pot...

Hopefully they vote to keep their jobs today!

[Ratickle]

My money is on they won't. The comment by the union rep is just typical of a warped sense of importance.

[MarylandMark]

http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13788&start=1

Post 11:

"is there even a lake in oklahoma? "

I guess he doesn't get Ned's magazine :rofl:

[Magicfloat]

The local paper www.fdlreporter.com just posted that the voting is over and they will report as soon as the ballots are counted.Should not be long.

[MarylandMark]

mercury votes no

[MarylandMark]

Farkin idiots trying to call the companies bluff from what I've read.

The deadline is 8/29 but reports saying it was a resounding no by a large margin.

[JupiterSunsation]

Nobody wants to work for less but if the company doesn't have it then you can't expect to get it! (it being MONEY). They should have voted to keep their jobs and take whatever the company offered.

Those guys need to realize they are tied to a luxury item not a necessity. If boat companies are not selling boats then there is no need for the motors/drives/other Merc. parts.......therefore no need for the workers either.

[JupiterSunsation]

UPDATE: Mercury union overwhelmingly rejects contract changes
The Reporter Staff • August 23, 2009

By a “wide margin” more than 800 union employees have said “no” to a final contract proposal offered by Mercury Marine.


Specific numbers were not released by union officials early this afternoon.


The vote this morning has followed weeks of negotiations that culminated Thursday when company officials said a “yes” vote by the union would keep the company in Fond du Lac and a “no” vote would move the company to consolidate operations in Stillwater, Okla.


Late last week, company officials said the deadline for a final decision from the union is later this week, leaving the door open for another vote by union members.


“Obviously we are extremely disappointed in the outcome of the vote,” said Joe Reitemeier, president and CEO of the Fond du Lac Area Association of Commerce, shortly after hearing the results of this morning’s vote.


The results were released about 12:15 p.m.


“We would hope that the fact that the contract offer doesn’t expire until next weekend that that would provide some opportunity for a second vote or a reconvening of the negotiations,” Reitemeier said.


He said he doesn’t think the concessions or contract changes sought by the company are unreasonable.


“I think it’s realistic,” he said. “The company needs to be in a position of managing its own destiny and being able to react quickly to market changes. There is a realty that they have been facing and that is that the product they produce is typically purchased with disposable income and current economic conditions as well as what they anticipate for the future for the marine industry dictate that there needs to be dramatic changes in the way they conduct business.”


Reitemeier said he is now waiting to hear what the union has to say about continuing negotiations with Mercury officials.


“I’m waiting to get some element of hope that maybe there is another avenue of opportunity out there,” he said

[Bobcat]

looks like no big bonuses for mangement

[Ratickle]

Figures. Now we can have another large group oif unemployed people eventually working for 1/2 of what they currently make. But the Union Big Boys will still do just fine. Even if they have to tap the strike savings fund......

[Madpoodle]

Oklahoma is rubbing their hands in glee..

[MarylandMark]

I'm all for skilled workers being paid a living wage but not sure this was the right choice...

They should have voted to keep their jobs, then have Merc move the OK operations to MI (390 people I think) and use this "give back" in future negotiations to try to "get back". Never works that way but still- a job is better than no job; esp in MI. They would have more leverage in the future since Merc would have more of their operation in MI and may not be cost effective to move at that time.

I am shocked the Union didn't yes vote so they could have had more union workers in MI which would be more dues paid even if their workers were making less. Head count is the only thing that counts for them; more people paying due is better than less people paying dues. They say they would rather have 5 people making $100K than 10 people making $50K but I think that is BS- all about the dues coming in and more people mean more people to mooch off of.

[Trim'd Up]

I agree Mark, but Mercury is in Wisconsin. ;)

[MarylandMark]

I agree Mark, but Mercury is in Wisconsin. ;)

MI - WI- kind of like being dyslexic but upside down :biggrinjester:

[stecz20]

soon, if not already, mi is what built america and will be a prime model of how it broke america...

[catastrophe]

mi - wi- kind of like being dyslexic but upside down :biggrinjester:

96

[Steve 1]

After the steel workers union killed Bethlehem Steel they found another Host to bleed the Hotel Maids.

[JupiterSunsation]

soon, if not already, mi is what built america and will be a prime model of how it broke america...

Who is helping you with your posts? It was way too intelligent for you! :sifone:

[JupiterSunsation]

After the steel workers union killed Bethlehem Steel

Luckily I knew Blue Horseshoe loves Anacott Steel.........

[MacGyver]

mercury votes no

No, the stubborn union members voted no. Guess they didn't like having a job in these tough economic times.

[Trim'd Up]

soon, if not already, mi is what built america and will be a prime model of how it broke america...

Where did you read that? That is a well thought out and written post.:sifone:

[MacGyver]

And here's a retard that doesn't want to have a job.

http://cmsimg.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=U0&Date=20090823&Category=FON0101&ArtNo=90823012&Ref=AR&Profile=1289&MaxW=550&MaxH=650&title=0

[db71]

I am definatly not for the unions but I wonder if they feel they can get a differant company in there that is not in such a volital industry. Like someone said oshkosh truck was looking at the property. I would think they would have to have some sort of plan (the union) but maybe they really are that stupid. Does this mean that every member or employee voted?

[MacGyver]

I love this comment left on the FDL Reporter website:

You union lovers are a bunch of CHUMPS. Yeah you screwed the local economy but I love it. I'll be buying your ATV's, snowmobiles, boat's, and houses at firesale prices while your all fighting it out for the few minimum wage jobs left in FdL. Good riddens when your unemployment runs out. No more Friday night fish frys, watching the Packers on your expanded digital cable, or going up north for hunting. You'll be eating fried spam on Friday's, having a buddy hold the rabbit ears on the TV so you get better reception, and be shooting goffers in the back yard for fun. You better hope Obama's universal health care passes. No one's going to hire your obese butt with high blood pressure and diabetes.

[Shockwave]

And here's a retard that doesn't want to have a job.

http://cmsimg.fdlreporter.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=U0&Date=20090823&Category=FON0101&ArtNo=90823012&Ref=AR&Profile=1289&MaxW=550&MaxH=650&title=0

Looks like workers have been packing away some fat for leaner times .

[MacGyver]

Looks like workers have been packing away some fat for leaner times .

Thats from not working hard :D

[MarylandMark]

Whats up with all the hands in the pockets- all of them can't be playing with themselves?

[MacGyver]

Mercury says manufacturing operations will leave FDL in 2 to 3 years

Following a union vote this morning to reject contract changes that company officials say would have kept Mercury Marine in Fond du Lac, Mercury Marine issued the following statement:


"Union workers at Mercury Marine voted this morning to reject a contract proposal that company officials said was necessary to keep Mercury in Fond du Lac.


"Members of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers – the union that represents production workers at Mercury Marine in Fond du Lac – met at Fond du Lac High School at 9 a.m. today to cast ballots that were later tallied at the headquarters of the IAMAW Local chapter 1947.


"The proposal, which was presented to the union Aug. 19, is valid until Aug. 29 at midnight. The union leadership chose to accelerate the vote to Aug. 23.


"Mercury said it will continue to operate the Fond du Lac facility under the terms and conditions of the existing contract, which expires in 2012.


"In light of economic conditions which will lead to a smaller market, Mercury has submitted a contract proposal to the union in an effort to reduce costs, improve operation efficiencies and ensure the company's competitiveness. Following the union’s vote, the company will consolidate much of its Fond du Lac manufacturing operations with its existing operations in an expanded Stillwater, Okla., facility.


"Mercury said it expects to finalize details of state and local support programs over the next few days. Detailed plans and programs will be announced as they become available, and the company said it expects the full consolidation to take between 24 and 36 months.


“We appreciate the patient support of our employees and communities as we’ve gone through this process,” said Mark Schwabero, president of Mercury Marine. “This has been a very difficult and stressful process for all involved. We will work closely with our team in Fond du Lac to develop and communicate a transition plan for this 24-36 month process.”

[MacGyver]

The workers better start saving lots of money now while they can.

Then they can start practicing for their new high paying job...."Welcome to McDonald's, may I help you?

[phragle]

Is their union president named Kevorkian by any chance?? because he just helped FDL commit suicide.

[PARADOX]

Just wondering.... How many employees are with Merc. in FDL? 800 voted? I bet they all look like that bytch holding the sign up.
But.. opportunity knock.... start buying some dirt in OK.
Merc. is closely tied to Motorola, and I have some inside friends there. Just watch.. this is not over yet,, and heII is just about to begun all over our economy. The worse is yet to come.
All the unemployed "X" workers will get some gov. aid. And that's coming from the guys with a bit of more $ then Mr. Avarage Joe. Less $ to spend.. economy will get worse yet.
Our "toys" will be the thing of the past. :(

[MacGyver]

Is their union president named Kevorkian by any chance?? because he just helped FDL commit suicide.

It'll be more like waterboarding. Torture for the next two or three years, waiting for their pink slip.

[Ratickle]

Next thing the union employees will do, guaranteed, make crappy motors and do crappy work to try and make Merc go belly up like the union at Harley did to Harley. They should close tomorrow.

[MacGyver]

Next thing the union employees will do, guaranteed, make crappy motors and do crappy work to try and make Merc go belly up like the union at Harley did to Harley. They should close tomorrow.

Exact same thing I thought. The "I'll show them" mentality:dupe:

[MacGyver]

Now the guys in supply are gonna start wondering why the have so many left over gaskets/oil/bolts.


Woooops, did I just drop that gear/crank/cam/piston/head on the concrete..........silly me :rolleyes:

[Ratickle]

At Harley, they put metal shavings from the machining operations in the engines.

[MarylandMark]

Next thing the union employees will do, guaranteed, make crappy motors and do crappy work to try

I think I already got a set of them..

Think the workers were fat, dumb and happy- how about a union rep; the biggest swine of them all but he still has a job.

[MacGyver]

At Harley, they put metal shavings from the machining operations in the engines.

Ohhh, I think we'll see all kinds of things like this appear in the next two years :(

[Ratickle]

He should be good for a few months with no money for food.....:ack2: :ack2:

[MacGyver]

I think I already got a set of them..

Think the workers were fat, dumb and happy- how about a union rep; the biggest swine of them all but he still has a job.

Wow, thats the first time I've seen more then just his face on the nightly news.

Damn, he never missed a meal. Too bad he won't be able to say the same about the workers that'll be out of a job soon.

[MarylandMark]

Wow, thats the first time I've seen more then just his face on the nightly news.

Damn, he never missed a meal. Too bad he won't be able to say the same about the workers that'll be out of a job soon.

LOL- now you know why; he wouldn't fit in the picture.

They didn't want the workers to see what a porker he is- even got the front butt working on his belly.

Getting fat on the backs of their workers- literally. They have more hosts to leach off of so he'll be 10lbs bigger next year right on schedule. Good thing he has union health care to take care of his fat azz.

Rumor is the union wants to meet with the company Tuesday?

[MacGyver]

Rumor is the union wants to meet with the company Tuesday?

Really??? Merc did give them a week or so to have a second vote. I wonder if they are suddenly having second thoughts?

[MarylandMark]

The proposal, which was presented to the union Aug. 19, is valid until Aug. 29 at midnight. The union leadership chose to accelerate the vote to Aug. 23.

[MacGyver]

The proposal, which was presented to the union Aug. 19, is valid until Aug. 29 at midnight. The union leadership chose to accelerate the vote to Aug. 23.


Guess we'll see if the union will hold a second vote by 8/29.

[boatme]

bunch a dipsticks they have no clue

[MarylandMark]

http://www.iam1947.org/news.htm

Still clipping the laid off members for union dues!! Classic union!

Some of our laid off members are in danger of lapsing on their union membership. It is their responsibility to keep their dues current. Unemployment dues stamps are $2.00 per month. You can pay up to 3 months ahead. ($6.00) total. If you get more then 2 months behind in dues you can lapse your membership.

[MacGyver]

I'm sooooooo glad I don't have to put up with all the union BS.

[Bobcat]

wow, most non union pay is based on union wages( by the way the union is people) when the union fails, everyone else's pay will fall right down to wal mart wages. you can buy your insurance and food from the company store.

16 tons what do you get

[Bobcat]

Next thing the union employees will do, guaranteed, make crappy motors and do crappy work to try and make Merc go belly up like the union at Harley did to Harley. They should close tomorrow.

what year ? amf ?

[Steve 1]

Amazing with Detroit as a blueprint these Union Reps are guiding the membership down the same path as carved by the UAW destroying companies created by Great Men of Vision a wonderful Union legacy.

[Ratickle]

what year ? amf ?

That had to be late 70's? Early 80's? Been quite a while. Over 80% of the one line's bikes came back for warranty engine replacement. I'll find it.

[db71]

Me and my Dad have this discussion all the time about union wages setting the bar for non union wages. What a crock of **** wages are set by the employees if you can get someone to do an equal or better job for less than that is what the wage is if you can't find anyone to do a job for what you are offering than yous have pay more. I used to work construction and not once when we where doing bidding or anything else did we go well how much would this job pay if it was union.


On another note I have a friend who works for a company that builds wal-marts non union they are in IL but do not even get to bid on one job in this great state because of the unions (it has not always been that way) so Wal-Mart spends 8 million more per store for the exact same work that takes more time.

[JupiterSunsation]

Next thing the union employees will do, guaranteed, make crappy motors and do crappy work to try and make Merc go belly up like the union at Harley did to Harley. They should close tomorrow.

In the last year, Harley had a plant in Pennsylvania that couldn't reach an agreement with the union so they closed the plant and moved operations to another Harley plant.

I bet those workers still haven't replaced their old job at even the lower rate proposed by Harley.....

[phragle]

I believe this is the free market adjusting itself.... at one time, the company owners were getting rich by selling a product at a fair price, but out of greed they were exploiting the workers... along come unions, things sold at fair price, workers got paid better, owners made a little less, but everyone did ok... things sell for a fair price, unions got greedy and company owners are not making sufficient profit to stay afloat. system is unbalanced.

[Ratickle]

Me and my Dad have this discussion all the time about union wages setting the bar for non union wages. What a crock of **** wages are set by the employees if you can get someone to do an equal or better job for less than that is what the wage is if you can't find anyone to do a job for what you are offering than yous have pay more. I used to work construction and not once when we where doing bidding or anything else did we go well how much would this job pay if it was union.


On another note I have a friend who works for a company that builds wal-marts non union they are in IL but do not even get to bid on one job in this great state because of the unions (it has not always been that way) so Wal-Mart spends 8 million more per store for the exact same work that takes more time.

I have a similar thing up here with a friend who's a mason/brick layer.

When he works on building a school, like right now, he makes an additional $11 per hour vs any other job non-union. The government jobs pay by far the most. And they have to use only union contractors. Probably has nothing to do with getting them elected though. I'm sure it's all honest dealings...:boxing_smiley:

[Ratickle]

I believe this is the free market adjusting itself.... at one time, the company owners were getting rich by selling a product at a fair price, but out of greed they were exploiting the workers... along come unions, things sold at fair price, workers got paid better, owners made a little less, but everyone did ok... things sell for a fair price, unions got greedy and company owners are not making sufficient profit to stay afloat. system is unbalanced.

Unfortunately, it is the free market adjusting to the survival rate of the overseas competitiors who have to meet zero of the same requirements the domestic manufacturers do.

When are the unions gonna wake up and vote these azzes out instead of helping them get elected and watching them take millions from overseas manufacturers as bribes.

[Audiofn]

In a day and age when we are all taking pay cuts I just find it hard to feel sorry for the union. I have taken a huge pay cut as the owner of my business this year, and I have friends that have all taken pay cuts or modified work sceduals in various businesses. Do these guys read the news? People are lucky to have job in this economy. I would love to see what the company was asking of them. It is or course easy for us to say that they should or should not take the deal.

[Offshoredrillin]

In a day and age when we are all taking pay cuts I just find it hard to feel sorry for the union. I have taken a huge pay cut as the owner of my business this year, and I have friends that have all taken pay cuts or modified work sceduals in various businesses. Do these guys read the news? People are lucky to have job in this economy. I would love to see what the company was asking of them. It is or course easy for us to say that they should or should not take the deal.
I agree, so far this year i have taken a60K pay cut, bills are still paid, that money is right outta my pocket. its frustrating as an owner when employees look at us with disdain for writing their checks. some of these people better wake up, for some the wake up will be when they have no job..who will they blame then?

[Ratickle]

What the company was asking was reasonable to anyone who competes in today's markets.

No more pension, 401K with company match of 50% up to 6% of income cap.

New hires at $11.00 per hour start and build from there instead of the $22 current union workers make. And new hires make in a very short time. Etc.

All the things most other industries have had to do to make up the difference between between what an American manufacturer has to do to compete with imports who don't have governments like ours with business destroying rules and taxes.

[Bobcat]

That had to be late 70's? Early 80's? Been quite a while. Over 80% of the one line's bikes came back for warranty engine replacement. I'll find it.

AMF, the evo came out in 82 or 83 and they stopped putting so much imported crap into the M/C. the Japanese use the harley turnaround as a perfect example of kaizan.

[Ratickle]

AMF, the evo came out in 82 or 83 and they stopped putting so much imported crap into the M/C. the Japanese use the harley turnaround as a perfect example of kaizan.

The biggest thing that turned Harley around was the taafifs on the import bikes of 750cc or more effectively not allowing them to compete. Without that, Harley would not exist today.

[Ratickle]

For those who wish to know, in 1984 the US government imposed a high import tariff of 30% on Japanese motorcycles larger than somewhere around 750cc. Harley-Davidson claimed that the Japanese were "dumping" their motorcycles in the USA and went to the government demanding protection and got it.

In 1982, 80% of all motorcycles sold in the US of 1000cc or more were imports. The tariff cut that by over half.

[Scarab KV]

Now I know I made the right decision to close my retail store, which ironically is across the street from Merc.:(

[Geronimo36]

What the company was asking was reasonable to anyone who competes in today's markets.

No more pension, 401K with company match of 50% up to 6% of income cap.

New hires at $11.00 per hour start and build from there instead of the $22 current union workers make. And new hires make in a very short time. Etc.

All the things most other industries have had to do to make up the difference between between what an American manufacturer has to do to compete with imports who don't have governments like ours with business destroying rules and taxes.

In my opinion the changes in our workforce over the past decade or two are due to competition, greed and outsourcing.... :(

If I only had one of the above bolded, I'd be a happier man... Real world is that today these things either don't exist in companies or they are giving less and less.....

The only silver lining is now that so much is being outsourced, countries like India have prospered and their standard of living has increased and their services have become more expensive (check out "Slumdog Millinaire" as an example)... So then competition started to move things to China, Pakistan and several other unamed countries, who are also growing...

Long-term I think things might start to balance out but it will be at the expense of the USA. :(

[Ratickle]

Long-term I think things might start to balance out but it will be at the expense of the USA. :(

Yep, gotta run out of poverty stricken people worldwide before we will grow again with our current import laws.

[Chris]

It was an inevitable part of the Industrial Revolution. Always the end game.

We were fortunate enough to have the natural resources, natural transportation conduits and ability to innovate and capitalize on opportunity. But we were BS'ing ourselves that we had a lock on those attributes. WW I jump strted the whole thing and WW II really kicked it into overdrive. In the span of 50 years, we went from an second-level agrarian economy into the world's manufacturing powerhouse. And all along we convinced ourselves we were special and that we were entitled to what we had. While we spend the 60's and 70's wallowing in the excess and self-indulgence, the rest of the world clamored after our good fortune. Between the other nations nipping at our heels and the Arab nations recognizing they were fueling our economic engine on the cheap, we truly were that lumbering oaf ripe to be tripped by anyone that wanted it more than us. so now we've spent the last 30 years competing in an ever-increasing global marketplace and we CONTINUE to be surprised when someone else can produce things for less. How many more decades will it take before the average person comes to the realization that other peole can do alot of what we can? We innovate. We do that well- better than virtually everyone else. But lots of other people can do manual and semi-skilled labor functions. Paul really hit the nail on the head- future generations are going to have to compete with every person in every industrialized economy in the free world. China is a good example- they no longer enjoy the competitive advantages they once did. and work they once had a lock on is going elsewhere.

The world economy is going to change and evolve. And people thinking about jobs and incomes they're "entitled" to are just kidding themselves.

[JupiterSunsation]

I agree, so far this year i have taken a60K pay cut, bills are still paid, that money is right outta my pocket. its frustrating as an owner when employees look at us with disdain for writing their checks. some of these people better wake up, for some the wake up will be when they have no job..who will they blame then?


Have a friend in the stereo business over 25 years. He is a wholesaler of equipment (to other installers) and has an install division. Autonation was a 500K a year client (TV's in headrests, alarms, etc). That business has dried up 95%. Wholesale has dried up significantly since no one is busy right now. He had 5 longtime employees(over 10 years, which in the stereo business is forever!). He said there were days they had very little to do, would they offer to mow the grass (small 10 X 20 swale, 5 minute job), wash the trucks, clean the shop? Nope........wasn't their job, they were installers not laborers. He made payroll through Christmas and told them adios, good luck.

Needless to say they had no jobs lined up, nothing available in the industry. My buddy kept the newest employee (most up to date on training, most eager to work and coincidentally the lowest paid). The kid is great, got a pair of TV's installed in my wife's Yukon in less than 90 minutes. The former employees were famous for stretching jobs out for double that so they could look busy/ make it seem harder than it really was......

[Roger 1]

wow, most non union pay is based on union wages( by the way the union is people) when the union fails, everyone else's pay will fall right down to wal mart wages. you can buy your insurance and food from the company store.

16 tons what do you get

..another year older and deeper in debt.

[phragle]

Gotta agree with Chris on this one, I have said all along thatr the us industrial dominance was a very big bubble with complacency and entitlement being the pin we used to pop it.