The Case of Poker Run liabilities

[cashbrain]

I just read an unfortunate thread on the other site pertaining to finding one of the bodies of an occupant in SOTW Poker Run.
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/news...more-than-a-year-after-found-in-Lake-Michigan

Such an unfortunate situation... I make no assessment about who was at fault in this situation and the charities are the ones who suffer. What happened with SOTW highlights the legal ramifications of these events that,as a sport, we all need to be aware of.

When I started the Chicago club, I was extremely aware of the potential liabilities of the events..and they were "fun runs". One entrant was turned away because we smelled alcohol on his breath. I have been to Poker Runs where people cocktail on the stops. All in all, the reality is that Poker Runs ARE a liability and anyone who doesn't think that,needs to have a conversation with an attorney or insurance company.

As a promoter, you can't put your head in the sand and say that you didn't know or they had no right to sue...they do and they will. I'm not a proponent of how fractured the legal system is,clearly,it is broken in many respects.
I enjoyed all the Fun Runs that I organized(albeit for the few morons that ruined it) and love these events.

If you organize an event,please don't think that you are ever in a situation(even with insurance and disclaimers) that you won't be sued. If there is an accident, you will be sued..period. Liability is not an issue..a good attorney will find liability.

You can't cry over spilled milk when,as an organizer,promoter, or even possibly a sponsor that you can and most likely be sued. It comes with the territory.

I don't have a solution and not sure if there is one..other than a bunch of guys getting together to run their boats.

 

[redhotsommer]

OK...I'll bite. As the potential "organizer" of a memorial run next year for Brian...exactly how much liability will I be facing here? Do I need to limit my "organizing" and just count on the run being a "major coincidence" of a bunch of boats running from East Chicago to Michigan City? I pretty concerned, seeing as I'm a small business owner who wouldn't much like to lose everything...

 

[Airpacker]

As with any liability situation, you need to do due diligence in every aspect and more importantly, you need to HAVE insurance for the event.

When I was organizing 5 or 6 runs a year, I made dam sure I had 5 mill in personal liability insurance, a mill for club directors and event insurance.

Doesn't make for cheap events BUT, one the one chance that someone screws up, it means as the organizer, you don't end up in the poor house.

Our current club run costs are structured around event insurance. It adds 2 to 3 hun per boat to the cost of an event but without it being in place, there could be no events.

As for a "coincidence" run, who evers name comes up during the investigation will be pursued as the "organizer" but the law and the lawyers. Bet on that.

 

[catastrophe]

As with any liability situation, you need to do due diligence in every aspect and more importantly, you need to HAVE insurance for the event.

When I was organizing 5 or 6 runs a year, I made dam sure I had 5 mill in personal liability insurance, a mill for club directors and event insurance.

Doesn't make for cheap events BUT, one the one chance that someone screws up, it means as the organizer, you don't end up in the poor house.

Our current club run costs are structured around event insurance. It adds 2 to 3 hun per boat to the cost of an event but without it being in place, there could be no events.

As for a "coincidence" run, who evers name comes up during the investigation will be pursued as the "organizer" but the law and the lawyers. Bet on that.

5 events.............$ 18,000.00

No insurance.......no event with me anywhere near it as an organizer

 

[cashbrain]

OK...I'll bite. As the potential "organizer" of a memorial run next year for Brian...exactly how much liability will I be facing here? Do I need to limit my "organizing" and just count on the run being a "major coincidence" of a bunch of boats running from East Chicago to Michigan City? I pretty concerned, seeing as I'm a small business owner who wouldn't much like to lose everything...

Mike,

I would definitely talk to an attorney..I did and I avoided all liability.
Fun Runs are alot different than Poker Runs. At the very least,I would make sure that everyone who runs has valid insurance with adequate coverage and that not one person is the "organizer". When the music stops,attorneys will tag ANYONE that they think they can get money out of.
Your biz should be incorporated anyway and that is nominal protection.Any good atty can blow thru a corp,trust, or any other entity if they think there are assets available.

As far as Poker Runs are concerned, it doesn't make a difference how much insurance that you have...the attorneys can sue for ridiculous amounts and if they win the case, the promoter would be responsible for the difference.
And obviously, insurance companies will do anything to avoid a claim. If they find any negligence on the Promoters part, they can deny the claim.

I enjoyed all the runs that I put together and damn lucky that nothing happened. SOTW is an example of what can happen. Don't get me wrong, I think the runs are great, but to think that these events are completely protected...think again.

Do the event,but make sure others are helping organize it so that it is not directed to you.

 

[cashbrain]

One other thing...if you obtain insurance for an event, you will (or the entity) will be held accountable.I'm not inferring that you do not get insurance, but if you do, that will be the directive.

An answer may be an umbrella policy above the initial policy? ...and it also depends on the insurance companies appetite to insure in the first place.
Try calling you agents and tell them that you want to get a bunch of boats with huge horsepower together and run. Oh, and btw, there are no speed limits...and did I forget to tell you that they have no brakes?:sifone:

I raced cars a long time ago...you can't get insurance for race cars and their is a disclaimer in Life Insurance policies delineating coverage if you race.
If Poker Runs are deemed a race,then the insurance coverage may be denied.

Alot to think about and I'm not a naysayer here..just realistic.
I love the sport,just hate ratbag attys:boxing_smiley:

 

[MarylandMark]

RedHotSummer-

I'd post the run is canceled and that you are going boating on 11/14 and swinging by Papi Chulos 2-11PM; $10 cover charge at the door. The bar is already covered to handle these type of things if some thing were to happen (at least in MD; the bar is liable for serving "drunk" patrons).

Sucks and if any thing ever happened to me when I was with a friend I'd hate for my family to sue but can't promise they wouldn't type thing. Some thing happens; someone will find a way to sue even if it wouldn't be what the person whatever unfortunate incident happened to would do.

 

[Otis311]

I just read an unfortunate thread on the other site pertaining to finding one of the bodies of an occupant in SOTW Poker Run.
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/news...more-than-a-year-after-found-in-Lake-Michigan

Such an unfortunate situation... I make no assessment about who was at fault in this situation and the charities are the ones who suffer. What happened with SOTW highlights the legal ramifications of these events that,as a sport, we all need to be aware of.

When I started the Chicago club, I was extremely aware of the potential liabilities of the events..and they were "fun runs". One entrant was turned away because we smelled alcohol on his breath. I have been to Poker Runs where people cocktail on the stops. All in all, the reality is that Poker Runs ARE a liability and anyone who doesn't think that,needs to have a conversation with an attorney or insurance company.

As a promoter, you can't put your head in the sand and say that you didn't know or they had no right to sue...they do and they will. I'm not a proponent of how fractured the legal system is,clearly,it is broken in many respects.
I enjoyed all the Fun Runs that I organized(albeit for the few morons that ruined it) and love these events.

If you organize an event,please don't think that you are ever in a situation(even with insurance and disclaimers) that you won't be sued. If there is an accident, you will be sued..period. Liability is not an issue..a good attorney will find liability.

You can't cry over spilled milk when,as an organizer,promoter, or even possibly a sponsor that you can and most likely be sued. It comes with the territory.

I don't have a solution and not sure if there is one..other than a bunch of guys getting together to run their boats.

This is EXACTLY the reason we got out of organizing our poker runs on Lake George.

 

[catastrophe]

Our clubs interest secondary to having some fun is to raise some money for charity.

For that reason and to also keep the entry fee reasonable the club needs sponsors.
We cant get any sponsors without insurance.

 

[Ted]

You can also do it like Stu. A "club" member cannot sue their own club.

 

[Bobthebuilder]

Or you can do it like Ft. Myers Offshore, Inc. which is a 501 (c) (3) charity. The officers and directors of a 501 (c) (3) charity are immune from civil liability in Florida.

Bob

 

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

Or you can do it like Ft. Myers Offshore, Inc. which is a 501 (c) (3) charity. The officers and directors of a 501 (c) (3) charity are immune from civil liability in Florida.

Bob

True and your legal review needs to be state specific.

 

[JupiterSunsation]

You can also do it like Stu. A "club" member cannot sue their own club.

That seems weak.....what if the person suing isn't a club member but a guest/spouse/survivor of one!

 

[catastrophe]

Or you can do it like Ft. Myers Offshore, Inc. which is a 501 (c) (3) charity. The officers and directors of a 501 (c) (3) charity are immune from civil liability in Florida.

Bob

Thats protecting the directors not the sponsors, if there are any. And what about the members, or have you made each member a director?

 

[SC288]

OK...I'll bite. As the potential "organizer" of a memorial run next year for Brian...exactly how much liability will I be facing here? Do I need to limit my "organizing" and just count on the run being a "major coincidence" of a bunch of boats running from East Chicago to Michigan City? I pretty concerned, seeing as I'm a small business owner who wouldn't much like to lose everything...

I wonder if Jason (Race Promoter) could look into this and then LaPorte County would be the organizer....just a thought. You would then just have to split the cost of insurance etc. between the people doing the run.

 

[phragle]

Not to put words in Marc's mouth, but from talking to him, there are a lot of hairs to split. I was planing on working the first Smoke that didn't happen. You can't provide "medical" as that opens liability, but you can have an over zealous medic on one of the boats that just happens to bring the first aid kit from hell, however that medic can only provide BLS level services, Any ALS services would void the good samaritan law and would actually be considered practicing medicine (Dr. level) without a license.

 

[Ted]

That seems weak.....what if the person suing isn't a club member but a guest/spouse/survivor of one!

Look, truth be told, the organizer only has liability while the people are on land, and that is shared with the venue. Once someone is on a boat the liability is on the boat's owner, period. Although a lawsuit will go after anyone and everyone, the final responsibility is on the owner/operator of the boat. My club has Liability insurance for the directors so we can have legal representation but ultimately it comes down to the boat and it's insurance. Now a jury can do anything it wants which is why if an individual is putting on a poker run, it should be under an LLC umbrella and insured accordingly.

 

[phragle]

just a couple of odd facts... are legal problems are as much judge related as lawyer related (though judges are lawyers) there are a lot of things that a judge should throw out, but won't... And if a lawyer does NOT go after anybody and everybody, the client can then sue the lawyer if he thinks there is money left on the table and the lawyer didn't go after it.

 

[Bobthebuilder]

Thats protecting the directors not the sponsors, if there are any. And what about the members, or have you made each member a director?

You are right, our structure protects the officers and directors who organize the runs so that lets the runs take place. After that, each member is required to carry sufficient insurance. I would think it is not practical to make each member a director.

 

[cashbrain]

Look, truth be told, the organizer only has liability while the people are on land, and that is shared with the venue. Once someone is on a boat the liability is on the boat's owner, period. Although a lawsuit will go after anyone and everyone, the final responsibility is on the owner/operator of the boat. My club has Liability insurance for the directors so we can have legal representation but ultimately it comes down to the boat and it's insurance. Now a jury can do anything it wants which is why if an individual is putting on a poker run, it should be under an LLC umbrella and insured accordingly.

Not true...the organizer has responsibility and liability.I agree with you in theory,but, the lawyers have won numerous cases,particularly in SOTW case as an example.
Lawyers use the "shotgun" approach where they sue everyone..where ever the bouncing ball stops is where the liability is. It is a crap shoot based on money