Thad Allen's Apache + The Birth of the Cheetah Cat

[Offshore Ginger]

i hear ya on the "pain to handle" It gets real sensitive after it cut. I do the same, cut my patterns and go right to work with the least agitation of the fabric. Sure is nice stuff though. I recommend it to anyone doing epoxy repairs on these websites all the time but it is tough to find on a consumer level is small quantities.

I agree and like you said , nice stuff .

[Boat1]

Steve, could you please PM me your emal address. I have a project to discuss with you. Thank you.

[Steve 1]

Steve, could you please PM me your emal address. I have a project to discuss with you. Thank you.

Sent!

[Ratickle]

Steve, could you please PM me your emal address. I have a project to discuss with you. Thank you.

Welcome to the site, you picked a very good thread for your first post.

[Steve 1]

i hear ya on the "pain to handle" It gets real sensitive after it cut. I do the same, cut my patterns and go right to work with the least agitation of the fabric. Sure is nice stuff though. I recommend it to anyone doing epoxy repairs on these websites all the time but it is tough to find on a consumer level is small quantities.

Yes great material it is hard to beat, glass a good balance of physicals and reasonable cost, the whole thing is tailoring work and how one handles the Resin system ,I use a fair amount of S-Glass which I really like ,a good percentage of that material is hollow for some reason.

[Offshore Ginger]

Yes great material it is hard to beat, glass a good balance of physicals and reasonable cost, the whole thing is tailoring work and how one handles the Resin system ,I use a fair amount of S-Glass which I really like ,a good percentage of that material is hollow for some reason.

Steve , just curious when did you start incorporating S-glass & E-glass with Epoxy into your builds ?

[Steve 1]

Steve , just curious when did you start incorporating S-glass & E-glass with Epoxy into your builds ?

I have been using S-Glass for quite a while The orcoweb was the first I worked with back in the early 80's nice stuff funny when you look at the Rolls the first time they do not have the slight green tint,Then later a friend (Jack Clark a great guy) had a deal buying Navy overages from a manufacturer and would get the stuff by the ton. (the US Navy Loved the stuff)

Personally I go for the Uni's that way I can get it 100% in the direction I want, We Had a fabric worked out once upon a time in for the Cheetahcat 12 (my first inboard) 12% Carbon 88% S-Glass.

It is really a underestimated material great stiffness and Tensile strength.

[Steve 1]

i hear ya on the "pain to handle" It gets real sensitive after it cut. I do the same, cut my patterns and go right to work with the least agitation of the fabric. Sure is nice stuff though. I recommend it to anyone doing epoxy repairs on these websites all the time but it is tough to find on a consumer level is small quantities.

Yes and Like cutting bonding tape always go with the length, cutting across the width (off the end of the roll) Does not work well.

A 6 foot piece can stretch to 8 feet through poor handling,even the drops had to be rolled up if you want any usable material in the scrap pile.

We marked with Cheap Chinese Pencils (soft lead)or Carpenter pencils, Magic markers are a no no, they seem to poison the curing process with some resins in those areas.

[glassdave]

Yep . . . . learned all those lessons the hard way.


I was working a very large collision job last summer on a 46 footer and was running low on the laminates. I had to cut some small strips across the width of the roll. . . . . . what a handfull. Had to be real careful with those.

When you use S glass what weave and weight do you prefer? Does that differ from epoxy to poly?

[Audiofn]

Any of you guys know Joe Berkman? He is a buddy of mine that helped me out with my projects. He was one of the top foil builders in the world for a while. Used to work at Mark Lindsey Boat Works in Gloucester.

[Steve 1]

Yep . . . . learned all those lessons the hard way.


I was working a very large collision job last summer on a 46 footer and was running low on the laminates. I had to cut some small strips across the width of the roll. . . . . . what a handfull. Had to be real careful with those.

When you use S glass what weave and weight do you prefer? Does that differ from epoxy to poly?

We use the S-Glass in unidirectional, I have had 4 oz and 6 oz material it lays out easy and I can line up the filament exactly with the loading without the weight penalty and the added thickness of a 90 or a 45 degree layer of material in there going along for the ride. And I can X out the loaded areas like the bulkheads and the hull shell with it.You get the guys together (after work) break a piece of glass strip in half and ask them how they would repair it the smarter ones say 45 degree biaxial then sometimes in a long while One will point at the uni Bingo you have your next foreman as he understands . The S-Glass is at home in Poly, Vinlyester and Epoxy with the finish/coupling agent they use on it.

[Steve 1]

Any of you guys know Joe Berkman? He is a buddy of mine that helped me out with my projects. He was one of the top foil builders in the world for a while. Used to work at Mark Lindsey Boat Works in Gloucester.

Audiofn Hi ,No I do not know him foils are very cool and hold the sailboat speed record.

[glassdave]

We use the S-Glass in unidirectional, I have had 4 oz and 6 oz material it lays out easy and I can line up the filament exactly with the loading without the weight penalty and the added thickness of a 90 or a 45 degree layer of material in there going along for the ride. And I can X out the loaded areas like the bulkheads and the hull shell with it.You get the guys together (after work) break a piece of glass strip in half and ask them how they would repair it the smarter ones say 45 degree biaxial then sometimes in a long while One will point at the uni Bingo you have your next foreman as he understands . The S-Glass is at home in Poly, Vinlyester and Epoxy with the finish/coupling agent they use on it.

ahh i see, now its all starting to make sense. With a unidirectional you can place the properties/strength exactly where you want them, Rather then take some arbitrary laminate and build a bulky structure with filaments running in unnecessary directions you build each ply and run the uni filaments in directions that suite your needs. Now it also makes perfect sense how you can build moldless without the overlaps i asked about earlier. With your method you drastically minimize the need for overlaps because you've essentially (for lack of a better term) weaved the entire boat by carefully mapping out your plys. My mind was still stuck on methods used inside of a mold where overlaps are necessary to tie cut laminates together.

again Steve . . . . . fascinating stuff . . . .

[glassdave]

now that i think about it boats built by conventional means probably carry a great deal of unnecessary weight in excessive overlaps and filaments that (as i've seen you use the term) are just along for the ride. . . . . (that sound was the lightbulb in my head clicking on lol)

[Steve 1]

ahh i see, now its all starting to make sense. With a unidirectional you can place the properties/strength exactly where you want them, Rather then take some arbitrary laminate and build a bulky structure with filaments running in unnecessary directions you build each ply and run the uni filaments in directions that suite your needs. Now it also makes perfect sense how you can build moldless without the overlaps i asked about earlier. With your method you drastically minimize the need for overlaps because you've essentially (for lack of a better term) weaved the entire boat by carefully mapping out your plys. My mind was still stuck on methods used inside of a mold where overlaps are necessary to tie cut laminates together.

again Steve . . . . . fascinating stuff . . . .

Dave Thanks I will post a little more on this later on.

[Steve 1]

now that i think about it boats built by conventional means probably carry a great deal of unnecessary weight in excessive overlaps and filaments that (as i've seen you use the term) are just along for the ride. . . . . (that sound was the lightbulb in my head clicking on lol)

A horrible penalty is payed out for this this Weight which once placed there is un-removable and is best left on shore or as the excess resin in the breather material inside your dumpster and not a contributing component of the self destruction via the slamming and inertias.

[Powerabout]

I have seen an example of this but via FEA from SP and it removed and shifted bulkheads and changed the layup schedule.
Boat lighter and way stiffer.

[Steve 1]

I have seen an example of this but via FEA from SP and it removed and shifted bulkheads and changed the layup schedule.
Boat lighter and way stiffer.

Yes Sir Also allows one to taper the "mass" in a proper fashion.

[Audiofn]

I am working with my Formula 302 in the next few weeks and planning on changing the bulkehead layout. Can you think of any reason NOT to do this? I planned on getting rid of the entire cabin and only having bulkheads and crawl through holes. The main reason is to stiffen up the deck some as it feels like you will fall through walking on it.

Jon

[Steve 1]

I am working with my Formula 302 in the next few weeks and planning on changing the bulkehead layout. Can you think of any reason NOT to do this? I planned on getting rid of the entire cabin and only having bulkheads and crawl through holes. The main reason is to stiffen up the deck some as it feels like you will fall through walking on it.

Jon

Jon You in the end must get the loading across the boat to the other side,the hull and deck can be a great "box" beam problem being the deck is usually weak on the stiffness side to the twisting/torsion resistance it must provide,so the remedy becomes add cross section to it or reduce span between the supporting bulkheads or frames.

Just do a good strong setup on the hull making sure it is level at the transom and mid point in the hull.