103 in an svl ?

[mdkeywest]

It was a very large effort by all of the teams to accomplish what they did. Now that it is in the limelight, everyone wants a piece. Especially Fountain with Reggie at the helm.

Mike may be right. I'm not completely sure. I'm waiting for some more input from Wil on this.

Funny ,7 years ago when svl was kikin pretty good, Reggie said no to building a fountain svl when a racer ( X) was waving cash in his face .

The economy changed ,the big v,s arent as affordable as the svl,s.
He went for the money ,not to kill a class .He believes he can sell these. ( my opinion only )

[MANITIE]

It went wrong when they did not put in writing everything they discussed over the winter in a rule book and have everyone sign it to abide by it. They should still do that, and let the Fountain run in the class if it meets the tech rules as they were discussed. It just needs to be fully teched. As I understood it, all of the old boats were grandfathered in with all of the hull modifications made to them up to that agreement being okay.

It was a very large effort by all of the teams to accomplish what they did. Now that it is in the limelight, everyone wants a piece. Especially Fountain with Reggie at the helm.

Mike may be right. I'm not completely sure. I'm waiting for some more input from Wil on this.

I agree...but you see why a rule book could not be written...and why all the teams could not sign it...

I'm all for a class coming to a Org and requestion a change here or there for the better of the class..but it would still be the finnal decision of the Org to make...

[Ratickle]

Exactly my point. Let the vintage boats lock in their own rules. There is a better chance of growing that class by allowing the original manufacturers like Phantom, Extreme, Activator, and Lavey, to build new boats that are identical to the old ones then to allow the Fountain free for all that is happening now and fixing to get worse.

If there really is this serious demand for new technology boats then great, create the right rules platform from scratch now and do not worry about trying to shove square pegs into round holes. If the new technology class is really a good idea then it should not need old boats to cream. Win-win for everyone, except those who only want to race if they can bring their gun to a knife fight and then brag they won because of their skillful aim rather than the supersonic projectile their weapon emits.

I really like that analogy.....

[MANITIE]

I really like that analogy.....

Now thats a good one...

[Ratickle]

I agree...but you see why a rule book could not be written...and why all the teams could not sign it......

Actually, I don't. They put a lot of work into it and all agreed verbally that I know of.

I'm all for a class coming to a Org and requestion a change here or there for the better of the class..but it would still be the finnal decision of the Org to make...

This one I'm torn on a little. I do believe however, if it would not have been for their group banding together and approaching every org with a possible schedule and commitments. We would not be having this discussion about a class with growing pains. It is very nice to see them run across the orgs so they can be seen in every area of the country. Too bad the west coast is so far away. It would have been nice to see Pig Iron have some competition in Havasu.

[MANITIE]

Actually, I don't. They put a lot of work into it and all agreed verbally that I know of.




This one I'm torn on a little. I do believe however, if it would not have been for their group banding together and approaching every org with a possible schedule and commitments. We would not be having this discussion about a class with growing pains. It is very nice to see them run across the orgs so they can be seen in every area of the country. Too bad the west coast is so far away. It would have been nice to see Pig Iron have some competition in Havasu.

The problem would have been...with all the hull changes made...then what do you do with all the new boats...or if Will built another boat..it would have to have hull changes to be able to compete..and now you here about the computers....
I beleived someone said Randy spent over 7k-10k to do his Mods...plus I'm sure he did a lot of derigging and rerigging
What happen to cost efficent..
Why did any hull changes have to me made period...the class was compeditive the way it was..without the changes...these were all boats that were 10+ years old...Steve M did not make any hull changes to his SVL and took 2nd in Miami behind the Fountain...
The SVL class has always been a big class..when OSS started they had I think 6 or 7 SVL's...
Which today is about the same adverage...
The problem is, which we all know is to many orgs and not enough racers..
Also the SVL class has to race in other Orgs...they need a place to race...
Not counting the SBI and OPA races..OSS had 2 or 3 race sites...so if theres going to race 6 or 7 races a year..they have to run in other orgs..

There is nothing wrong with them getting together and choosing there schedule..so they can max. there boat count in every race...
But there is no set rules for there class...because they choose not to put them out....

What is wrong with OPA,SBI OSS having all the same rules for SVL..and thats it...the rules are the rules...if you modifie your boat you race in P-Class..
The teams can get together and decide what races they want to run together and if some teams what to race more go for it..

The problem today is the rules that have been written for SVL have been broken..and new rules have to be written to accomidate the ones that were broken...and even when that is done...now the boat that they allowd in as legal and they welcome..is now another problem...so new rules will have to be written to keep the new SVL's out..or start there new class...

Do you see where this is going..and have we seen this in the past with class's and has anything been learned...

[shifter]

There was a class with identical boats engines drives, Bat boats. Where is it now?

If you put data on the boats and limit for mph at 95 all the boats will be even. No new rules, no new classes, run what you want.

You guys are making this difficult.

pat W

[MANITIE]

There was a class with identical boats engines drives, Bat boats. Where is it now?

If you put data on the boats and limit for mph at 95 all the boats will be even. No new rules, no new classes, run what you want.

You guys are making this difficult.

pat W

Pat...you are right..because with the changes that have been made and hearing some computers beeing hacked...the spec thing is out..and the best thing is to keep the boats all maxed at 95...just about all of them can hit that speed...and if a boats faster...then he gets capped...and it dose not cost any team anymore money to be compeditive..and the best part is other then those lake races....most all of the others they will not hit the 95mph mark so they will still have to run wide open and trimed out....

[TYPHOON]

I would like to know what you all think makes the Fountain faster and better than any thing we already have? Why is it called new tec. when that mold has been around for years and was never really a great seller. HP is HP,weight is weight and length is length. Where is all the new tec you all are talking about. I hear we need to all do more homework. Well some of us have already done all there is to do years ago. You cant change the HP. You cant change the weight. You cant change the gear. So that only leaves props, X dimesion and location of weight if your boat has that advantage. So I can tell you that I have done all this more than once and always hit the wall at 92-93 MPH. I have tryed Throttle up props,Heiring and labbed hydromotive. I have tried differant diamitors on most of them as well. I have tried from -1" to 3" below the bottom. I have lowered my deck in the front for better visability. I have put in a 60 gallon bladder. I have blue printed my bottom and 2 years ago added a inch to my pad on the bottom (which did nothing). All of these test were done back when we had Wild Card,Wild Ride and myself as the fastest boats of the day. WE ALL HIT THE WALL AT 92-93MPH. Know we have boats that still have the same rules but are 2-5 MPH faster. So Im looking for suggestions as to why we all hit the wall and there is still more speed out there. What am I missing?
The fountain has twin steps and I will asume that must help but the Lavy Craft and Activator also had twin steps.
I personaly want to run with the biggest class with the most boats to race. If I finished 5th out of 15 boats and my boat is 12 years older Im going to feel pretty dam good about myself. My 70k boat is all I can afford and at least Im in the game. Untill there is money and sponsors in the game its just a hobby for me. I like the people I race against and seeing good friends once a month.
MD

[TYPHOON]

Only 3 boats can 95 MPH. And that sounds like GPS racing to me. Pat have you ever run in a bat boat.The bat boat thing didnt work beacause you better be in good shape for the beating in the ocean and the small block motor is just not that fast. It was great to start off in one of them to see if you like racing but no one was buying them at that price and renting was fairly expensive if you wanted to keep doing it. You cant compair a SVL to a bat boat.

[imco offshore]

Randy I know they love your opinion,,,but you are WAY off base , their is so much bottom technology now ,,their wasn,t in 1998..sorry buddy ,,just facts,,,Propellers are WAY different now,,, in turn lets you change your x,,ect,,,even materials are better...if you say IT DON,T MATTER ,,,then I ask ,,why do boat manufactures strive to build better boats and the bottom is the first thing to change,,,,other wise,, all they would have to do is change decks every year,,,I know approximately how much you test,,and by Doc,s own admission ,,fountain test his stuff all day all week ,,,I work on my boat about 20 hrs a week ,, I,m pretty sure Mark does at the least the same.... as for racing just to be their,,,your their best case ,,,( A STATISTIC FOR THEM ),,, I want to know I have the same chance as the next guy,,,right now it,s a rodeo ,,,, I agree we all need to do our homework,,,,but the new DON,T WANT YOU TO DO IT ,,,SOMEONE MIGHT FIGURE SOMETHING OUT ,!! PARITY IS SOMETHING ,,THE NEW ARE AFRAID OF,,, ,,, ,,,

[mdkeywest]

You can also make a lot more mistakes in a bat boat and avoid tragedy .
They dont have to punch thru at different mph like an svl does .
It takes a hell of a lot more to drive /throttle an SVL .Lot more fun too.

I love the big cats , thats a thrill ride not many get .
But the svl,s in my opinion are the hardest work you'll do in this sport the way it is configured now .

Most of what ya,ll are having a problem with can be handled by getting off the flats and back into the waves . Thats the true equalizer .Beat the bottom off that fountain . ( make sure sharky is there to get the pictorial evidenece)

[MANITIE]

I would like to know what you all think makes the Fountain faster and better than any thing we already have? Why is it called new tec. when that mold has been around for years and was never really a great seller. HP is HP,weight is weight and length is length. Where is all the new tec you all are talking about. I hear we need to all do more homework. Well some of us have already done all there is to do years ago. You cant change the HP. You cant change the weight. You cant change the gear. So that only leaves props, X dimesion and location of weight if your boat has that advantage. So I can tell you that I have done all this more than once and always hit the wall at 92-93 MPH. I have tryed Throttle up props,Heiring and labbed hydromotive. I have tried differant diamitors on most of them as well. I have tried from -1" to 3" below the bottom. I have lowered my deck in the front for better visability. I have put in a 60 gallon bladder. I have blue printed my bottom and 2 years ago added a inch to my pad on the bottom (which did nothing). All of these test were done back when we had Wild Card,Wild Ride and myself as the fastest boats of the day. WE ALL HIT THE WALL AT 92-93MPH. Know we have boats that still have the same rules but are 2-5 MPH faster. So Im looking for suggestions as to why we all hit the wall and there is still more speed out there. What am I missing?
The fountain has twin steps and I will asume that must help but the Lavy Craft and Activator also had twin steps.
I personaly want to run with the biggest class with the most boats to race. If I finished 5th out of 15 boats and my boat is 12 years older Im going to feel pretty dam good about myself. My 70k boat is all I can afford and at least Im in the game. Untill there is money and sponsors in the game its just a hobby for me. I like the people I race against and seeing good friends once a month.
MD

Well if you did all you can to your boat...then you did all you can do..
But should rules be changed because of that...or is it time your boat is obsolete like so many boats that are 20 years old..
I think at that pioint you just race with the other SVL guys and just have fun if you like the guys around you....or move to P-class or sell the boat...

I hope there is no one here that did not think Reggie would build his 1st SVL and it was not going to be fast is there.......we all knew that...but at the same time...what SVL racer has the experiance, knowledge and resorces that Reggie has....and if his SVL was only going to be as fast as 10-20 year old boats...he is in big trouble....

Most of us are not the big money teams...but we should not change rules or modifie our boats because we have a old boat or its not compeditive...there are classes for older boats...or boats that can't compete..

How many new SVL's have been built in the last 2 years....I think zero...
And if Reggie has 2 or 3 in 12 months..well he did something right that know other manufature has done in a while....

[MANITIE]

Randy I know they love your opinion,,,but you are WAY off base , their is so much bottom technology now ,,their wasn,t in 1998..sorry buddy ,,just facts,,,Propellers are WAY different now,,, in turn lets you change your x,,ect,,,even materials are better...if you say IT DON,T MATTER ,,,then I ask ,,why do boat manufactures strive to build better boats and the bottom is the first thing to change,,,,other wise,, all they would have to do is change decks every year,,,I know approximately how much you test,,and by Doc,s own admission ,,fountain test his stuff all day all week ,,,I work on my boat about 20 hrs a week ,, I,m pretty sure Mark does at the least the same.... as for racing just to be their,,,your their best case ,,,( A STATISTIC FOR THEM ),,, I want to know I have the same chance as the next guy,,,right now it,s a rodeo ,,,, I agree we all need to do our homework,,,,but the new DON,T WANT YOU TO DO IT ,,,SOMEONE MIGHT FIGURE SOMETHING OUT ,!! PARITY IS SOMETHING ,,THE NEW ARE AFRAID OF,,, ,,, ,,,

George...I think this is the differance from 10+ years ago to today..
Today everyone wants to have a boat that is just as fast as the fastest boat out there..no matter what year it is...or how much cheaper it is...
When we had 20+ F1 boats..there was not parity...some F1 boats were lapping others on a 5 mile course...a lot of race boats were getting beat my 3 to 5 miles...and finishing 2 and 3 minutes behind the winner...
There was no lighten his boat weight down that boat change rpm's..
You raced...and there was enough boats out there that you did not have to be in the lead to be racing..you could be 4 miles behind but still have 2 other boats deck to deck with you...and you did it because they were the rules..
if you wanted to be up front..you went and bought yourself a boat that was compititive....if not...you still raced what you had and you had fun...
Today..it seems the first time a boat comes out fast..everyone wants to punnish the team that dose..
The first time I even heard of parity...was in OSS when the Skater Vee was kicking everyones butt...and then it was weight it down, do this..do that..and were did that get us...SV in OSS died...and it also did in SBI...

[Ratickle]

Today..it seems the first time a boat comes out fast..everyone wants to punnish the team that dose..
...

I don't think so. I think that as soon as the boat passes a full blown spec inspection, a lot of this will probably die. But, until a 2010 33 off the showroom is alongside for that inspection, and post race inspection procedures are followed, speculation about the boat will always be there. And, from my slightly biased viewpoint, the boat is obviously beatable. Even with the crap at the start in St Clair, Dunbar's kept pace the entire race. In Detroit, it was beat. In Biloxi, it was beat. In Mi City, only Pirate was there to compete against it and they decided not to push that hard in the rough stuff out there. In Sunny Isles Steve and Bruce were in the hunt until Bruce broke. It may be slightly faster, it may be that it just has a lot more preparation and testing time. One thing is absolutely for sure, it has the freshest motor, and with Reggie behind it, they can put several motors on the dyno (and several ECM's) and pick the ones with the most HP and Torque and the best operating curves.

Now pick me apart.....

[Ratickle]

Only 3 boats can 95 MPH. And that sounds like GPS racing to me. Pat have you ever run in a bat boat.The bat boat thing didnt work beacause you better be in good shape for the beating in the ocean and the small block motor is just not that fast. It was great to start off in one of them to see if you like racing but no one was buying them at that price and renting was fairly expensive if you wanted to keep doing it. You cant compair a SVL to a bat boat.

And the 28 Bat had a weird spot in the handling....

[MANITIE]

I don't think so. I think that as soon as the boat passes a full blown spec inspection, a lot of this will probably die. But, until a 2010 33 off the showroom is alongside for that inspection, and post race inspection procedures are followed, speculation about the boat will always be there. And, from my slightly biased viewpoint, the boat is obviously beatable. Even with the crap at the start in St Clair, Dunbar's kept pace the entire race. In Detroit, it was beat. In Biloxi, it was beat. In Mi City, only Pirate was there to compete against it and they decided not to push that hard in the rough stuff out there. In Sunny Isles Steve and Bruce were in the hunt until Bruce broke. It may be slightly faster, it may be that it just has a lot more preparation and testing time. One thing is absolutely for sure, it has the freshest motor, and with Reggie behind it, they can put several motors on the dyno (and several ECM's) and pick the ones with the most HP and Torque and the best operating curves.

Now pick me apart.....

No need to pick you apart...
But the class can not complain about the boat...they let it into the class..whats done is done...there own OSS inpector said it was legal..
As far as being legal...you can't say its fair for the Foutain to go threw a full blown inspection when a lot of the other SVL's won't pass...
I agree..it should be simple...
Have the rules...have your inspections on the top 3 or 4 boats..any mods you fail...it should be that simple...if you don't get teched your DQ...
If you say well then I'll just put my boat on a trailer because I know I broke the rules already...then do so...you cannot be a hipporcrite...
If someone says "then there will only be 3 or 4 boats racing" so be it...its the rules...if you don't.. what dose that say about the class..let the class build from what it has legally....if the legal SVL are competitive which I agree with you they are....don't destroy the class because some broke the rules and because your buddy...buddy..and you don't want to see him sit out...

This is racing....you want a serious tech inspections...with all the money being paid out to the SVL teams...pay a good tech inspector with some of it...if not you get this....

If your worried about Reggie cheating with ECM's...once again thats what the rules are for..put all ECM's in a bag and pull at the drivers meeting...

Whats going to be the differance if O/L gets into the class...will they be doing the same thing that you say Reggie is doing ...were will it end....
unless you just want a class for buddies..who you like class.. then they should have at it...and just let in teams they like...and run it how ever they want....

[earthwerks]

I am willing to bet anyone $ 5000 dollars that Brian Forehand can run a faster lap speed in your boat than you can.

[mdkeywest]

I am willing to bet anyone $ 5000 dollars that Brian Forehand can run a faster lap speed in your boat than you can.

You stand a chance of losing $ 50,000.
Put it in a escro account .Then you will get some takers ( literally )

[imco offshore]

Gino , your talking about 10 years ago ,the LLC days and Factory support...LLC made racing viable to Factorys to get involved,,They were also enforcing rules , they had a great tech , team ,,and they did have PARITY plans in place,,right !! they also had ( by your own words and Franks ) 20-25 boats in F-1 and F-2 and super cat and cat outboards.....here is what I think is an Issue ,,the promoters have figured out a formula to have races without any expenses,, ie,,no rules to enforce,,minimal volunteer staff ect..don,t get me wrong ,,we are all in business to make money ,I truly understand,,,unfortunately it comes at the expense of speck or enforced class racing,,
look at your class ,,,you spent (I,m guessing) 100,000 dollars on a new boat with an Illmore 650 hp..in P-5 ,,,,why ?? the guy who wins has 800 hp to go 75 ,, normally breaks out ( but don care ,,because the people on the beach don,t know) your race is usually won in the first 200 yards,,,, because anybody can go 75 ,,,and if you catch the guy in front of you ,,,you broke out ,you had to because everyone of can go 75 ,I don,t get it ?

AS for the ECM.S Issues , it ironic that all of a sudden "WE" have an issue ?? We asked ,,begged,,,pleaded ,,,to have the top 4 ecm,s removed and tested ,,we were told no problem ,we,ll do it ,,the class all agreed ,,,,but after hearing and seeing an svl going 103 (verified by wahoo who has a certified gps) and using high school math ,,, the only way an svl can go 103 is either by ,,turning the motor 5800 and having a efficiency hull rate better than cat outboard ,,,soo I guess you could say ,,WE DO HAVE AN ECM, ISSUE,,,,,but we are ALL willing to have ours checked ( well almost all)
THIS DEBATE CAN GO ON FOR EVER,,,BOTTOM LINE ,,,,???? COMING HAVE A GREAT DAY