Let's try a different approach

[T2x]

Now that we know what doesn't work. Let's open up a discussion as to what the sport needs. Let's leave out current projects, loyalties and agenda's and allow them to rise or fall based on their own merits and/or lack thereof.

Let's take a clean sheet of paper, and project what, in a perfect world, the sport should look like. This will do one of two things; produce a vision that a bunch of people can get behind, or show that the diversity of concepts in the minds of those with interest in the sport is too varied for anything but the small time, localised, weekend warrior events we currently see.

I will not participate beyond simply opening the topic. This is about your ideas...not mine. Instead I will simply answer questions on the "T2x set me straight" thread if someone needs historical reference material.

Have at it and good luck.

T2x

[Pete B]

Great Idea, 3 classes only, Cat, SVL and Outboard class!

[Fast Shafts]

On the clean sheet of paper I'd like to see:
1) One set of common rules.
If I'm going to Florida on vacation, I'd like to bring my boat there to race. I don't want to change numbers classes or organizations.
2) One registration/member fees.

Drag racing has dozens of classes, just as Offshore, but only 2 or 3 that get TV air time. Offshore should have 2 or 3 primere classes which get TV time. However there is still a place in Offshore for smaller boats/classes. I think only the "designated" classes should get air time. In drag racing, not many care about VW supercharged class-therefor they get no TV time. Offshore should be the same-develop the primere class, if you want TV step up to the designated class! This doesn't deminish the smaller classes-but leaves the door open if you step up. Often at local tracks, (just like offshore) there are more "field filler" cars (P class boats) than "pro cars" (big cats).

[Wahoo 214]

Cat, SV, OB. 100 boats, qualifiing to make race, TV, $100,000 pursue, 8 races a year, get paid to race, huge sponsorship $$. Oh and my own reality show too.

If that don't work I am more than happy with what we have in the OPA

[Ratickle]

Cat, SV, OB. 100 boats, qualifiing to make race, TV, $100,000 pursue, 8 races a year, get paid to race, huge sponsorship $$. Oh and my own reality show too.

If that don't work I am more than happy with what we have in the OPA

I really think that's possible. But the purse would be larger......

[Mike A.]

There are two different for profit business models to choose from: 1) membership based, where the sanctioning organization caters to its members who pay for the benefits; 2) fan based, where the sanctioning organization caters to fans. There is a huge difference between the two. APBA LLC's business objective was to create both over 10 years much like NASCAR, which does have numerous classes and regional series but two primary national circuits. There is no way to have #2 without a boycott proof premier class and lots of capital, and you cannot have #1 without lots of capital.

If you want a perfect not for profit member based organization then look no further than OPA.

[1waterboy1]

There are two different for profit business models to choose from: 1) membership based, where the sanctioning organization caters to its members who pay for the benefits; 2) fan based, where the sanctioning organization caters to fans. There is a huge difference between the two. APBA LLC's business objective was to create both over 10 years much like NASCAR, which does have numerous classes and regional series but two primary national circuits. There is no way to have #2 without a boycott proof premier class and lots of capital, and you cannot have #1 without lots of capital.

If you want a perfect not for profit member based organization then look no further than OPA.

Excellent points Mike.The thing that I was most impressed with during the APBA LLC era, was the fact that you and your staff were looking to proven professional motorsports organizations like NASCAR for guidance in how to take our sport to the "next level".There is no doubt that every aspect of offshore powerboat racing was at its best during that time.I feel fortunate to have raced a little during that time;and certainly hope the sport can get headed back in that direction.

I think we can follow NHRA's lead with a PRO and SPORTSMAN CLASS structure.As Fastshafts pointed out, NHRA has a couple of featured PRO CLASSES(Top Fuel Dragster,Top Fuel Funny Car and Pro Stock); and many,many SPORTSMAN CLASSES.NASCAR has three featured national touring series classes(Sprint Cup,Nationwide,and Camping World Trucks);and many regional and local series and classes.

Lets get back to two featured PRO CLASSES:Super Cat and Super Vee with built to spec 525 horsepower motors and dry exhaust so they sound good!Build these classes up to to 20 or more boats and put them on smaller courses in the ocean with both right and left turns.The varying water conditions of the ocean will level the playing field and create exciting and entertaining racing for the racers and the fans.The PRO CLASSES could be featured on Sunday during a race weekend.All televsion coverage and marketing and promotion should be focused on these classes.You want to be part of the big show;you have to build a boat for one these classes period!There currently are way too many 'big boat" classes that look the same with one or two boats per class and no competition.Two classes with boats that look completely different is also easy to understand for even the most casual fan.The PRO CLASSES should be featured in a 8-10 race national circut and compete for "national high point champion" titles in each class.

SPORTSMAN CLASSES:anything and everything else...from single outboard vees to twin engine vees and cats that do not fit in Super Cat or Super Vee.There needs to be a uniform set of rules throughout all the regions and clubs.The emphasis of the SPORTSMAN CLASSES should be to increase participation through competitive and relatively affordabe racing.The SPORTSMAN CLASSES would race on Saturdays at national events;and also
at stand alone regional races in the Southeast,Northeast,Central and West.
The SPORTSMAN CLASSES could race in 4-8 race regional circuts, and compete for "regional high point champion" titles in each class...ie.. Class 6 Northeast High Point Champions"

Finally,have an end of the year "Nationals" (cant really call it a "Worlds" because there is not a common set of classes world wide)...somewhere warm like Key West,FL in November.

This format is not that far off what was successfull in the mid to late eighties before the split(s) in the sanctioning bodies.Back then, you had five PRO CLASSES(too many though)..Superboat,Open,Modified,Pro-Stock and Stock...and four SPORTSMAN CLASSES A,B,C & D.

Just an opinion...any thoughts???

[sbracing]

Excellent points Mike.The thing that I was most impressed with during the APBA LLC era, was the fact that you and your staff were looking to proven professional motorsports organizations like NASCAR for guidance in how to take our sport to the "next level".There is no doubt that every aspect of offshore powerboat racing was at its best during that time.I feel fortunate to have raced a little during that time;and certainly hope the sport can get headed back in that direction.

I think we can follow NHRA's lead with a PRO and SPORTSMAN CLASS structure.As Fastshafts pointed out, NHRA has a couple of featured PRO CLASSES(Top Fuel Dragster,Top Fuel Funny Car and Pro Stock); and many,many SPORTSMAN CLASSES.NASCAR has three featured national touring series classes(Sprint Cup,Nationwide,and Camping World Trucks);and many regional and local series and classes.

Lets get back to two featured PRO CLASSES:Super Cat and Super Vee with built to spec 525 horsepower motors and dry exhaust so they sound good!Build these classes up to to 20 or more boats and put them on smaller courses in the ocean with both right and left turns.The varying water conditions of the ocean will level the playing field and create exciting and entertaining racing for the racers and the fans.The PRO CLASSES could be featured on Sunday during a race weekend.All televsion coverage and marketing and promotion should be focused on these classes.You want to be part of the big show;you have to build a boat for one these classes period!There currently are way too many 'big boat" classes that look the same with one or two boats per class and no competition.Two classes with boats that look completely different is also easy to understand for even the most casual fan.The PRO CLASSES should be featured in a 8-10 race national circut and compete for "national high point champion" titles in each class.

SPORTSMAN CLASSES:anything and everything else...from single outboard vees to twin engine vees and cats that do not fit in Super Cat or Super Vee.There needs to be a uniform set of rules throughout all the regions and clubs.The emphasis of the SPORTSMAN CLASSES should be to increase participation through competitive and relatively affordabe racing.The SPORTSMAN CLASSES would race on Saturdays at national events;and also
at stand alone regional races in the Southeast,Northeast,Central and West.
The SPORTSMAN CLASSES could race in 4-8 race regional circuts, and compete for "regional high point champion" titles in each class...ie.. Class 6 Northeast High Point Champions"

Finally,have an end of the year "Nationals" (cant really call it a "Worlds" because there is not a common set of classes world wide)...somewhere warm like Key West,FL in November.

This format is not that far off what was successfull in the mid to late eighties before the split(s) in the sanctioning bodies.Back then, you had five PRO CLASSES(too many though)..Superboat,Open,Modified,Pro-Stock and Stock...and four SPORTSMAN CLASSES A,B,C & D.

Just an opinion...any thoughts???

I agree with the 2 Pro Class system, but would make the current OPA
bracket racing the sportsman series. Keeps the policing to a minimum.

Basically you are using Grand-Am Rolex Series model for your pro series
(2 classes DP fast, GT less fast) and NHRA Bracket racing model for your sportsman series. Two great organizations to copy from.

[inbetween]

Lets get back to two featured PRO CLASSES:Super Cat and Super Vee with built to spec 525 horsepower motors and dry exhaust so they sound good!Build these classes up to to 20 or more boats and put them on smaller courses in the ocean with both right and left turns.The varying water conditions of the ocean will level the playing field and create exciting and entertaining racing for the racers and the fans.The PRO CLASSES could be featured on Sunday during a race weekend.All televsion coverage and marketing and promotion should be focused on these classes.You want to be part of the big show;you have to build a boat for one these classes period!There currently are way too many 'big boat" classes that look the same with one or two boats per class and no competition.Two classes with boats that look completely different is also easy to understand for even the most casual fan.The PRO CLASSES should be featured in a 8-10 race national circut and compete for "national high point champion" titles in each class.

SPORTSMAN CLASSES:anything and everything else...from single outboard vees to twin engine vees and cats that do not fit in Super Cat or Super Vee.There needs to be a uniform set of rules throughout all the regions and clubs.The emphasis of the SPORTSMAN CLASSES should be to increase participation through competitive and relatively affordabe racing.The SPORTSMAN CLASSES would race on Saturdays at national events;and also
at stand alone regional races in the Southeast,Northeast,Central and West.
The SPORTSMAN CLASSES could race in 4-8 race regional circuts, and compete for "regional high point champion" titles in each class...ie.. Class 6 Northeast High Point Champions"

Finally,have an end of the year "Nationals" (cant really call it a "Worlds" because there is not a common set of classes world wide)...somewhere warm like Key West,FL in November.

As a fan, I like than idea similar to this. Keep it simple.

A simplified class structure for the "main event", such as one cat class and one v class, would greatly improve the casual fans ability to watch and enjoy a race. They would know who's winning instead of trying to figure out who's racing who. There are currently too many classes where the boats all look the same, sound the same, similar speeds, numbered the same and they're all on the course at the same time.

I'm a long time fan, been watching since the 70's as a very young kid, and it's still confusing at times. And is it really racing if you're the only one in your class?

[MarylandMark]

Q- Why does one think it takes so long to announce the winners?

A- nobody know who is racing who in which class under which org

Not many more than the the 300 or so people directly involved have a clue who is racing who. To add on to that they don't have a clue because they don't care enough to try to learn (I'm in this group).

KISS- keep it simple stupid!

Here is one simple idea:

Obviously there is lingering questions on how many classes. For now (and I would say stick with it in the future as well) how about making the main color in each class paint their boat the same color. Still have multi-colored sponsor logos and the like; talking the main color or gel-coat or whatever. Got 8 classes? Who cares- I and every other idiot knows the red boat is racing the red boat, the blue boat is racing the blue boat, etc

I know- I'm good at spending other peoples money but IF you get a product fans like they will be paying you for you to show it to them (ie- professional paid boat racing)...

[Wazzup Racing]

There are two different for profit business models to choose from: 1) membership based, where the sanctioning organization caters to its members who pay for the benefits; 2) fan based, where the sanctioning organization caters to fans. There is a huge difference between the two. APBA LLC's business objective was to create both over 10 years much like NASCAR, which does have numerous classes and regional series but two primary national circuits. There is no way to have #2 without a boycott proof premier class and lots of capital, and you cannot have #1 without lots of capital.

If you want a perfect not for profit member based organization then look no further than OPA.

Hi Mike, Thanks for the kind words. Even though we are doing such a terrible job, I'll keep trying. Maybe some day we can be as good as Rich.

[H2O Full Throttle]

From a media standpoint here is what I would like to see from any new assn, and this is based on what I have seen at the various races and series I have attended over the years.

* A dedicated press room where writers and photographers can have access to the internet. (Example - Class 1 in Doha we have two portacabins with hi speed internet access). This allows local media and nationals to update their websites immediately as well as send images back to the papers to meet deadlines.

* Have a helicopter available which is shared by media for each race or qualifying session. You would be surprised at the difference in quality of images this makes. Yes it may cost a couple of grand to do so but think about that front page shot on a local newspaper, would cost you a heck of a lot more to buy the ad space.

* For those regular journalists who commit to covering a series provide a hotel room for the couple of nights the race is on. Remember you are nuturing those who are going to write nice things about you and help spread the word.

* have your own series photographer and they provide the assn with large selection of images at the end of the day for journos and media outlets that done have anyone to attend the race. Class 1 and P1 do this and it increases media coverage by about 35%.

* Treat the media as a partner, not the enemy as Carbonell does. Without media coverage your sport wont grow and wont bring in new sponsors. They arent going to give you money for an event if no one is covering it and they are getting no exposure.

* Get the media out on jury boats etc if possible as the more images that are shot the better your chances of media coverage in magazines, news papers etc.

These are just a few thoughts.

Ned

[Wardey]

Hi Mike, Thanks for the kind words. Even though we are doing such a terrible job, I'll keep trying. Maybe some day we can be as good as Rich.

What are you talking about ??? I think you are doing a fantastic job !!!! Congrats !!! Dave

[Wazzup Racing]

You know Dave, I was referring to another Thread, where certain Mr know it alls, just never stop bashing the hard work of a lot of people. It just gets a little boring after a while.

[2TR]

Supercat Light (630hp limit) * ask Crockett as to why 630hp he would explain it better

Superstock Cat O/B: Current rules would work (maybe add a weight/power ratio to bring out some older SS boats.



Super Vee (630hp limit) * See above

SuperVee Lite: What's running now seems to work.


Two Cat Classes and 2 V Classes to run Sunday and Run your feeder classes or "P" races Saturday.

[smokeybandit]

Clean slate. No baggage.

Make it as simple as possible. Either cater to a TV audience or live spectators. I don't think you can do both in offshore. My personal choice would be the TV audience since it is much broader and i would get to see a lot more races. With that being said, there really would be no need for the circle racing. Get a ton of helicopters in the air and do some real offshore racing. 2 to 3 classes. Worst case would be 4. Men (and women) against machine and the elements. Make it as easy as possible for teams to build a fan base. Merchandising. How about revenue sharing? That way everyone gets a piece of the pie.

[Ratickle]

Clean slate. No baggage.

Make it as simple as possible. Either cater to a TV audience or live spectators. I don't think you can do both in offshore. My personal choice would be the TV audience since it is much broader and i would get to see a lot more races. With that being said, there really would be no need for the circle racing. Get a ton of helicopters in the air and do some real offshore racing. 2 to 3 classes. Worst case would be 4. Men (and women) against machine and the elements. Make it as easy as possible for teams to build a fan base. Merchandising. How about revenue sharing? That way everyone gets a piece of the pie.

Why do you think you can't do both? I visited Key West when they ran the longer races. Cameramen on the choppers, and some big screen TV's in the pits etc would go a long way.

But, even at St Croix you hear complaints when the boats go out of sight around the upriver bend. Or when the flip occured in the far back corner at the Worlds last November. If you want to charge fans, you need a show. To me, a show consists of two things only. Entertainers and audience. Figure out how to maximize both, and you'll be doing great.

Heck, people (me included) pay $350 per ticket to see gay guys play with lions and tigers in Vegas for a couple hours......

[Sean Stinson]

Sorry I was out of the loop for a few days my brain is mush I will voice some ideas later.....Sorry I cant give any first hand news from Marathon I just went through the trip from hell trying to get there and ended up with Fred Bob trailer repair taking all day and then some to do a repair in the land of "Deliverance" while making sure that I didn't hear dueling banjo's in the background somewhere!!!!!

[Sean H]

Superstock and SuperVee Lite is race 1.
SuperCat and SuperVee is race 2.

Superstock is any 300 hp or less twin outboard cat 28-32'
SVL is any builder dyno'd and sealed 525 HP and any drive 27-32' single engine vee.
SuperVee is any dyno'd and sealed 800 HP. Any drive/rudder. 38-44' vee.
SuperCat is same engines as SV for cost reduction and simplicity. Any drive/rudder setup. 36-44' cat.

Obviously classes will have weight limits and engines will have strict build standards. All classes are canopied with certain minimum requirements.

Now back to reality.

[Sean Stinson]

Superstock and SuperVee Lite is race 1.
SuperCat and SuperVee is race 2.

Superstock is any 300 hp or less twin outboard cat 28-32'
SVL is any builder dyno'd and sealed 525 HP and any drive 27-32' single engine vee.
SuperVee is any dyno'd and sealed 800 HP. Any drive/rudder. 38-44' vee.
SuperCat is same engines as SV for cost reduction and simplicity. Any drive/rudder setup. 36-44' cat.

Obviously classes will have weight limits and engines will have strict build standards. All classes are canopied with certain minimum requirements.

Now back to reality.

Whether you love them or hate the Turbine boats are here to stay and need their own class....

IMHO Super Vee and Super Cat can run in the same class just adjust the rule to allow the vee to have a level playing field....Add weight to the cat or something similar. I do agree that the engines need to be the same for both...

And what are you going to do with supercat lite step them up to the 800 hp engine Pkg??? I am liking the sound of this!!!!

Now then you can adopt OPA racing for your sportsman classes or Production classes!!!!