May wanna get rid of that Swiss Bank Account

[Airpacker]

You guys will end up just like us eventually. Income taxes, property taxes, consumption taxes, sin taxes, fuel taxes, licence taxes, tax taxes. You'll see.

"Share the money Crocket".

[Bobcat]

They have to spend some of it here, right? They eat, so they buy food. They sleep inside, so they pay rent/mortgage. They drive a car/truck, so they buy gas. They buy clothes and other items.

If they send money overseas, I see that as no different than someone putting money aside in a savings account.

down here they stay 10 people in a one room apt. get paid cash and all pile into one company truck, they send 90% of their money home. all they buy is phone cards and food, not restaurant food either. they go to the hospital and do not pay anything, ask phragle about bankrupting the fire department in Ca.

[fund razor]

Nah, you gotta have boats that run before you can claim admiral status.

And hear I was thinking that the job was influencing other Captains.

Flat tax. Let's do the flat tax.

[Geronimo36]

down here they stay 10 people in a one room apt. get paid cash and all pile into one company truck, they send 90% of their money home. all they buy is phone cards and food, not restaurant food either. they go to the hospital and do not pay anything, ask phragle about bankrupting the fire department in Ca.

For the record, I'm referring to legal immigrants, not illegals. I mentioned it because these folks pay taxes just like you and I.

Unfortunately whenever the word "immigrant" or "immigration" is used, people automaticlaly assume they are illegal and most of the general population don't even know what an H-1B, F-1 or L-1 visa is.

The reality is we have a need for "legal" immigrants in the US.. Maybe we wouldn't if more people were interested in going to school to be engineers and/or doctors for example.

[Sea-Dated]

For the record, I'm referring to legal immigrants, not illegals. I mentioned it because these folks pay taxes just like you and I.

Unfortunately whenever the word "immigrant" or "immigration" is used, people automaticlaly assume they are illegal and most of the general population don't even know what an H-1B, F-1 or L-1 visa is.

The reality is we have a need for "legal" immigrants in the US.. Maybe we wouldn't if more people were interested in going to school to be engineers and/or doctors for example.

If they are legal, you have the choice to do the same thing. You could live in a $300 per month apt, drive a $500 car and eat one meal a day and put the rest in savings. Only difference is you are saving yours and they are sending it elswhere. At the end of the day you are still paying the same taxes the legal immigrant is.

It is your choice how much taxes you pay.

[fund razor]

If they are legal, you have the choice to do the same thing. You could live in a $300 per month apt, drive a $500 car and eat one meal a day and put the rest in savings. Only difference is you are saving yours and they are sending it elswhere. At the end of the day you are still paying the same taxes the legal immigrant is.

It is your choice how much taxes you pay.

Savings is completely legal.
My understanding is that the underground undocumented export of US currency is not.
I think that I heard the number one industry in Mexico is opening letters from cousins in the US.

And it doesn't matter if the person sending the money away is documented or not.

[Geronimo36]

If they are legal, you have the choice to do the same thing. You could live in a $300 per month apt, drive a $500 car and eat one meal a day and put the rest in savings. Only difference is you are saving yours and they are sending it elswhere. At the end of the day you are still paying the same taxes the legal immigrant is.

It is your choice how much taxes you pay.

My point is really the loss of tax revenue there could be if you only tax on spending and not income.. Yuu may even create an underground bartering system, whereby no one has to pay any taxes...

I like flat-tax, but that's a hole other thread!

Like fund said, underground transportation of currency overseas is the root of the thread.

[LaughingCat]

These guys are well paid, rent/mortgage, food, car/truck, gas is probably a small percentage of their yearly income. Some of them even share housing with their buddies to save on costs.. They work here for 3-6 years then go home.... If they make enough money they have 25-30% taken in taxes currently and they also pay social security although they'll never be able to collect it. If they do all the above, send 60% of their income back home and live on the rest, how much taxes can they actually pay? It's likely the amount of taxes they pay on consumption will be far less than they would if their income was taxed.

I do see your point but there are a lot of things that would need to be looked at and I don't think it's simple.

When it really comes down to it, who cares if they send some monmey home. if I'm getting my lawn mowed cheaper and they are at least taxed on what they spend here, it's better than what we get now AND the consumption tax brings in more tax revenue placing the burden on all consumers, not just the documented wage earners. that's the beauty of it. So simple.

[LaughingCat]

Only problem is that it would basically put the IRS out of business and when was the last time you knew government to reduce the # of jobs they provide?

Yes and No. they would cease to operate in their current fashion. In stead, they would operate in the capacity of auding businesses to ensure the sales/consumption taxes are properly paid. They could slim their work forces down, but that's one of the benefits. And like I mentioned before, tax workers and tax attorneys will put up the biggest fight. If a groundswell movement ushers in the consumption tax instead of income tax, we'd see our economy take off like a rocket.

Think China and Japan. Big lessons to learn from their capaitalist models.

[LaughingCat]

i never understood this obsession with getting Immigrant workers to pay lots of taxes and keep their money in the US. In teh grand scheme of things, they cont equally a great amount of our 'lost' tax revenue. Seems like running across the field just to make sure an ant can't can carry off a crumb. Any tax system will have people who cheat. the assumption that a giant tax-evasion manufacturing black market will emerge is not likely. all the providers of raw goods to the manufacturer are avoiding the tax on product sold since they are feeding a manufacturer. so people up the chain will have to make sure those below them deal fairly or face taxation. I find it unlikely a supplier will pay taxes on items they expect to be exempt because the shmoe down the chain evaded. i expect each of you would protest when the IRS comes looking for the consumption tax on what you sold to the manufacturer.

but get back to the benefit to us. if we are making huge cake, what we don't spend doesn't get taxed. What we do spend costs no more. The tax is embedded and doesn't cut the sellers profit. wanna know how? Get the book.

I recommend the audiobook and a case of beer. Time well spent.

[Geronimo36]

Usually they come here to earn an acredited education. A BS degree in india is basically equal to an AAS 1/2 degree in the USA and a lot of their universities are 3 yrs instead of 4. Some students like the idea of capitalism and stay while others are here to learn, earn a good income and ship it back home and inect those funds into their own ecomomy. There is also a percentage of overseas companies who intentionally plant these 'seeds' in organizatons so they can develop business opportunities for their offshore counterparts. They then leave, taking their money and knowlege with them.

The only way to fix this is to have more Americans get educated in the field such as software engineering so there's not a labor shortage. Dispite the high rate of unemployment these skills are very much in need. Unfortunately kids these days aren't interested in SW eng. and are allured to investmend banking for instance or expect to be mangers right out of college, lol

Anyway, were a bit off-topic now.

[fund razor]

Usually they come here to earn an acredited education. A BS degree in india is basically equal to an AAS 1/2 degree in the USA and a lot of their universities are 3 yrs instead of 4. Some students like the idea of capitalism and stay while others are here to learn, earn a good income and ship it back home and inect those funds into their own ecomomy. There is also a percentage of overseas companies who intentionally plant these 'seeds' in organizatons so they can develop business opportunities for their offshore counterparts. They then leave, taking their money and knowlege with them.

The only way to fix this is to have more Americans get educated in the field such as software engineering so there's not a labor shortage. Dispite the high rate of unemployment these skills are very much in need. Unfortunately kids these days aren't interested in SW eng. and are allured to investmend banking for instance or expect to be mangers right out of college, lol

Anyway, were a bit off-topic now.

That's ok... earlier I went to a thread that said Mercury was closing and it was actually an "if."

I went to a thread that was the history of the speedmaster and I learned about Bravos and Volvos.

We went down this road because people were discussing the movement of money offshore. We would our way into immigrants because of the apparent propensity for the lower income ones to send cash away and the higher income ones to have a half dozen citizenships and to never bring it here in the first place. You are not that far off, really.

[Geronimo36]

It's no problem Fund, it's all good and relevant!

As for consumption taxes on illegal alliens, that would probably help a lot since most of them are paid under the table and the companies who pay them under the table would pay taxes on the goods (lawn mowers, shingles, hammers, nails, food, plates, supplies etc., LOL)

What's interesting is some folks don't have a problem with people sending money back home but who's to say it's not the same thing as an american who was born here, pays taxes his/her whole life and then sells all their assets and moves to Costa Rica to live like kings.... A lot of people say they're sell-outs so there's a double standard possibly.

[LaughingCat]

And we're never going to get every dime taxed. But I'd rather see the burden on the consumer, not the worker. We have far more consumers than workers who pay taxes. And even legal aliens work under-the-table.

[Geronimo36]

And even legal aliens work under-the-table.

First question is what do you consider legal alien? This is a very broad category which includes tourists, guest workers, green card permanent residents and student visa aliens..

It may be true about some legal aliens working under the table but their visa's can/will be rovoked if it's uncovered. The vast majorty of legal aliens I've worked with over the past 10 years are on the up-and-up because the fear of having their visa's revoked and being deported.

By law, and by the terms of the visa, I must pay/report a minimum salary and in our case it's usually $75K for engineers on H-1B. Once unemployed, a legal alien on visa has 3 months to find a new job before they get deported and lose visa status, or they evade and stay here illegally.

[MarylandMark]

Wiping out the IRS alone would drop each of our tax liability significantly