Twin Engine GPS or Tech Class Discussion

[Ratickle]

I'll copy a couple of quotes over her, but when I raised the point in the Raise Your Hand for Key West thread that I believe SBI is one class short currently, a discussion started about why.

By the way, my opinion, you are one "P" class short now. It takes too much power to get a 34' to 38' Cig, Scarab, etc. up to 95mph.... 85 was about right....

This is my opinion, still is.

Where do the old F2 type boats run? Jim Simmons, arguably the best running twin engine F2 still running, runs in an 85 MPH Class 4 OPA. Until this year, similar in SBI as far as maximum allowed speed.

It shocks me that the boat which I believe has won every P4 World's the last 3 years, and is also a duplicate Triple Crown winner, now has no class to run in.

But, my bigger concern, is that all of the similar type boats also have no place to run in SBI. As I said above, one class short in my opinion.

I would have zero issue with it being a spec class again. I'll also copy over a couple of the other quotes.

Keep it pleasant all.

[Ratickle]

From there;

The fastest Factory 2 boat I know of, ever, was the Let's Play boat. As far as I know, it went barely over 90 in Biloxi, but it also completely burned the exhaust up because the ECM had been modified to lock out the temperature, so it was illegal due to the modified ECM.

The Twisted Styx boat went 91. something, on the river not in a race, with only one person in the boat and almost zero fuel. It never hit 90 in a race.

But, even that is not my point. My point is there are several twin engine boats out there ready to race with no class to race in. Could you modify all of the old F2 boats to run 95? Probably. Does it make any sense, to me no.

Number one reason, too fast for reasonable safety in an open boat during race conditions.

If someone who owns one of these boats wants to discuss it, hopefully they'll start a thread. When Jim Simmons is only running SVL, and not the boat that won the triple crown several years in SBI, there seems to be something worth discussing.

[Ratickle]

Also from there;

My honest opinion, looking at hull designs/speed capabilities, etc. It is around 85 mph capable. The question is, can you keep parity without having it be a GPS class?

I also believe, based on the old F2's and the OPA GPS 85 class, it is fairly safe. Trent has gone over and out, Simmons runs his at the front, etc.

My gut feel says a 30' minimum, open cockpit Vee, 509 CuIn maximum no power adders, weight ? minimum, Bravo Drive 1/2" below, maximum RPM 5750 or so, won't go over that. And then put the parity rule with the drive height like SVL.

It's basically a big SVL with twins, or a Vee CatLight with Bravo's.

[F1-00 Racing]

I've been trying my best to stay off of the boards in general but since this directly does affect me, I'll contribute my feelings. This is my opinion and mine alone as I do not speak for Jim, nor OPA or SBI.

I was directly approached in Key West last year by Richie Dancision(Chief Referee for SBI) about raising the class to 90 for 2011. I agreed and have stood by that stance ever since. When the 2011 rule book was released it was modified to 90 mph and in the next 3 days was re-issued at the current 95. Upon my inquiry as to how and why it changed, it was stated that one(1) of the P2 teams had called in and said if it was raised to 95 they would drop in and run in it. No one else, including myself, had voted or called in and the rule became 95. I was asked to vote, however I abstained as with the pay structure of SBI vs. OPA along with the television package, my business plan dictates that OPA is the best place for my team to run and I felt that a vote on behalf of my team was not fair to the SBI loyalist that run each race and me relegating myself to being a part time SBI racer.

Now with the above being stated, I was kinda perplexed that they brought back the 95mph class as the last time the class was even run in SBI was the 2008 Worlds with Davis Motorsports taking the title. But thats why JC makes the big bucks, as obviously he knows something I dont and I respect and stand behind his decision.

Now the problem with bringing us back as a "spec" class is the fact that I have 525's in the former "Lets Play" Formula and Jim has 500's in his Phantom. The two primary boats in this discussion arent even matched equally so "spec" is a moot discussion.

No matter what changes are made with the speeds and/or rules, each association faces huge decisions as how many boats will be gained vs. how many will be lost. SBI evidentially felt that making it 95 was in the best interest of their organization and my team only wishes them the best and hope that it works out for them.

Side note: Jim and I both ran NYC with him in the Octane and me in the Peters & May and we both brought our other boats. I was asked by Richie D. why I had brought the Formula and my response was simple, I knew Jim had to bring his 34 Phantom(with his trailer deal) so I didnt want his boat to feel lonely not being allowed to fit into a class and being forced to be parked on the docks....

[Ratickle]

Thanks Trent, I almost called you to see if you were paying attention. Are you going to Key West by any chance?

As for P-3 in SBI, there were 6 races this year, there was only 1 P3 boat. And it only competed in 3 of the 6 races.

So, time for another discussion with those involved participating. I'm not putting Team Kilt down in any way, period. But I'm sure they would like to race sombody.....

[Ratickle]

In my opinion, a tech class is a possibility. Personally, I would have zero issue with the 500 vs the 525.

[F1-00 Racing]

No Key West for us this year.

[Ratickle]

That's too bad Trent. I was hoping you'd take at least one of the boats. Or if not, cruise down and chat with everyone.

[F1-00 Racing]

I appreciate it Paul, maybe next year and with us being in Michigan for a month next summer, maybe we can bump into each other at some point.

[XtremeRacing]

Paul I think you will see Kilt, Pump It and Time Bandit in P3 for KW. We'll have to see who else shows and then go from there.

[Ratickle]

That will definitely be better.

[Pete B]

In my opinion, a tech class is a possibility. Personally, I would have zero issue with the 500 vs the 525.

Ok put a set of 500's in a boat and then when a set of 525's come along and spank you will feel differently, this was the start and the demise of Factory 2 racing, on top of some 525's being "HOT"!

[Steve Miklos]

Ok put a set of 500's in a boat and then when a set of 525's come along and spank you will feel differently, this was the start and the demise of Factory 2 racing, on top of some 525's being "HOT"!

Yep!

[Ratickle]

Ok put a set of 500's in a boat and then when a set of 525's come along and spank you will feel differently, this was the start and the demise of Factory 2 racing, on top of some 525's being "HOT"!

Yep!

Ahhh, you miss my point.....

I know it was the demise, but what could have been done to keep parity? You cannot tell me nothing could have been done. Mercury is currently out of the picture, so we have a bunch of "A" and "F2" boats out there that no longer fit in any (?) class.

What if, for an example only, 500's could use any drive height, 525's had to be 1" below the bottom, and #6's with 525's had to be 2" below the bottom?

Or some other parity rule? RPM maximum allowed, prop diameter, etc. Steve knows as much about what can be tracked as maximum RPM with no chance for cheating than anyone probably.

I must say I don't really like weight adders, because I think it makes the boats unsafe when they carry extra weight.

[Pete B]

there are too many variables in the whole mix boat lgt, etc with twin boat you have twice as much expense, streamlining classes is what will make it better, Single Vee spec class, from affordability, to building a class. these old f-2 boats that sit will become the historic boats of tomorrow. They would be great for the historic class. Right now is the time to seize the moment, and watch the two largest spec classes in KW. SS and SVL and know if you want to Spec race this is the direction.

[Ratickle]

So, if it's "impossible" to build a reasonably cost spec class, (and I don't think it is with today's technology), then the GPS class is where the direction should be.

I happen to think Lucky Strike's old A boat, at 31', twin engines, and TRS's is a viable race boat at 80mph, becomes somewhat iffy at 85mph, and is a no way at 90 or 95mph.

Another example would be the old Crazy Chicken boat (single engine) at 33' that used to run P5, but at 33' is now too long. Another boat that is viable at 80, iffy at 85, and a no way at 90 or 95 mph.

Would two classes of GPS at the same speed, one with singles at 80mph to 30', and one with anything engine wise at 80mph or 85mph, 30' 1" to 38'11" be the answer?

[Wahoo 214]

Ok put a set of 500's in a boat and then when a set of 525's come along and spank you will feel differently, this was the start and the demise of Factory 2 racing, on top of some 525's being "HOT"!

You are assuming the 500s are not "hot". That may be a mistake since there are no rules requiring Jim to run stock power.

[Ratickle]

You are assuming the 500s are not "hot". That may be a mistake since there are no rules requiring Jim to run stock power.

That's a good point. And they may be. But, you've raced a bunch. I'm trying to figure out a way to have the older boats, between 30' and 39' be competitive in a class without spending a fortune to add blowers, Konrads or 6's, etc.

Basically what's been done with the under 26' boat (although that is really getting interesting), the under 30' single engine Vee, now what happens to all of the boats over 30', or with twins, that don't have canopies?

I'm just using a couple of boats as examples. It may not be able to be done, but I'm just thinking about it now because of end of year and time for review.

I guess I'm mostly tired of seeing boats (classes) disappear or downsize due to stuff like we are discussing. Where did all the "A", "F1", "F2" boats go?

[XtremeRacing]

This is the same problem P1 had in Europe, now they r doing away with weight to horse power, and racing either P1 ro P2 in KW. After talking with some of the racers there I dint realize it was that bad.

[Ratickle]

It's really sweet they are coming over here to race....