The Great Canopy debate: To cover or not to cover, Thats the question!

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Being strapped into a full canopy boat, are you at a disadvantage if you are wearing a pdf?

You would not be able to get out with a regular pfd if it were to go over.

We race with inflatable ones as Dean mentioned.

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

another avenue that has not been addressed is for lack of a better term "focused instinct" with no hard data to support, but from practicle experience, There are 2 distinct mindsets, racing and recreation. with a solid 10+ years doing motorsports rescue, when one is racing, one is hyperfocused and the brain works on a subconsicous neuronal pathway of action and reaction. The racer does not "think" when things happen, he reacts instincually. When recreating this pathway is not as active. Thus a seasoned racer is much more likely to have a serious accident when not racing. he may be very comfortable racing at 120-150 mph, but when doing these speeds recreationally with passengers and various other distractions he simply is not as focused.

This is a great point and has been addressed at length. Tres and I actually teach this in class and have a full lesson plan to which this is incorporated with situational awareness.

We create somatic models and through skill training teach and embed human behavior response mechanisms.

[imco offshore]

This is a great point and has been addressed at length. Tres and I actually teach this in class and have a full lesson plan to which this is incorporated with situational awareness.

We create somatic models and through skill training teach and embed human behavior response mechanisms.

so does that mean you do a dunker test repeatdly,,

[Chris]

If you're going to run a canopy, you shopuld probably be professionally drown-proofed. All military pilots are. It's an unpleasant process, but it allows you to control the drowning reflex that virtually everyone has- even the strongest swimmers.

[phragle]

a lot of viable statements have been made on why it's better to have a lid, or why it's better to be in an open boat. A lot of opinions have been expressed by a lot of very knowledgable people. The simple fact is there is no complete body of evidence in either direction. No comprehensive accident analysis and no studies encompassing all the possible variables. The perfect canopy does not yet exist, open pleasure boat speeds have increased to the point that in a high speed accident, death or serious injury may be inevitable. You have a catch 22 situation where a canopy may help you to survive the initial accident yet may then put you in an unescapable situation of being trapped and drown. The only thing I can really contribute is that I have looked at every crashed boat I can to see and understand the damage to the boat, what held up and wat didn't in the canopy so I can better understand exactly what happens to the people on board, what the forces are and where they come from so that I can better anticipate and treat the corresponding human injuries.

[Steve 1]

The way I look at it is the chance's of survival are Much better With the Canopie. If someone wanted a Canopied boat and I talked them out of it (which I never ever would)for some these reasons listed in this thread then whatever happens would be my fault and I would have to live with that.

We have a good Idea of the forces involved unless Say it strikes a solid object like another boat running across it and BTW people have survived that also. The drag Boat guys are surviving horrific accidents in their canopied boats.. I Personally have seen the upside and the down side to this and have Drawn my own conclusions long ago.

[rainmn]

I don't see a lot of talk about the potential visibility downsides to running a canopy on a crowded waterway. I've never even sat in a canopied boat, so I don't know if it's a real concern or not.

Where I spend most of my time boating (Barnegat Bay) is a virtual zoo on a summer weekend, as I'm sure many of the bays & lakes are that other members call home. I couldn't imagine running in that bay at any rate of speed without having good 360 degree visibility.

For those of you who have run a canopied boat (Not on a race course, where everyone is theoretically going in the same direction), is the visibility an issue?

[Wahoo 214]

You can reduce the blind spots with cameras like we have in our boat. It is not like an unrestricted clear view but with two cameras I can see all the way around the boat.

[Wahoo 214]

Brad/Tres

Do you teach dunker tests in your classes? If you do, what kind of dunker are you using?

[phragle]

Dean looks around his boat by doing Crazy Ivans...

[Twin27Advantage]

I went and searched for several pleasure boating accidents on this site, oso and all over the net. Besides a couple of cats and a V, none involve a boat that is upside down. The only ones that have boats consistently upside down are race boats during high speed turns.

The leading cause of a boat sinking is from overloading or anchoring to the stern. The first should not happen with a canopy, and the second is solved with a smart captain.

For the reasons I stated in post #71 it looks like a canopy and belts would have saved about 90% of the deaths caused during pleasure boating. Looking back at all of the accidents that happened in our area (Grand Haven/Spring Lake) and all the ones from Hot Boat (Hardy Dam) over the years, every death may have been avoided. Especially the ones from this summer.

Maybe I am just ignorant...

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

Brad/Tres

Do you teach dunker tests in your classes? If you do, what kind of dunker are you using?

Presently we do not support full canopied boats for pleasure use. We concentrate on performance pleasure boating and preventative measures.

However, David D and I are working up a add on program for the future whcih will include mandatory training with a recertification schedule.

Problem is the accidental passengers along with others.

[Tres]

I went and searched for several pleasure boating accidents on this site, oso and all over the net. Besides a couple of cats and a V, none involve a boat that is upside down. The only ones that have boats consistently upside down are race boats during high speed turns.

The leading cause of a boat sinking is from overloading or anchoring to the stern. The first should not happen with a canopy, and the second is solved with a smart captain.

For the reasons I stated in post #71 it looks like a canopy and belts would have saved about 90% of the deaths caused during pleasure boating. Looking back at all of the accidents that happened in our area (Grand Haven/Spring Lake) and all the ones from Hot Boat (Hardy Dam) over the years, every death may have been avoided. Especially the ones from this summer.

Maybe I am just ignorant...

There are way more accidents then what you see on the net. Canopy boats will kill more people. Quit! Above mentioned is correct, Very limited visibility and very distorted veiws which alone will cause accidents.If you want to go this direction and a few more people get killed in this type of design, you will lose all High speed powerboating insurance. Many racers have died thinking this device would save their life and it did not. They are trained to escape as well. Put a family in this type of a boat and now you have a bad deal. Canopies are for racing only. Its alot easier to play with peoples lives when your telling them its safe. If you think your safe when your in one, its a false sense of security. End this thread.You forget this is your last freedom on earth, lets not end it with trapping humans in water coffins to drown.

[Twin27Advantage]

There are way more accidents then what you see on the net. Canopy boats will kill more people. Quit! Above mentioned is correct, Very limited visibility and very distorted veiws which alone will cause accidents.If you want to go this direction and a few more people get killed in this type of design, you will lose all High speed powerboating insurance. Many racers have died thinking this device would save their life and it did not. They are trained to escape as well. Put a family in this type of a boat and now you have a bad deal. Canopies are for racing only. Its alot easier to play with peoples lives when your telling them its safe. If you think your safe when your in one, its a false sense of security. End this thread.You forget this is your last freedom on earth, lets not end it with trapping humans in water coffins to drown.

Most of the ones I looked at are from news stories around the country. If it involved a death it almost always makes the news. 95% of the deaths would have been avoided if the person was starpped into a seat and did not fly out of the boat.

Sure if a person tries to run around at wide open making high speed turns they are going to get hurt. In a pleasure application I dont see this happening with a informed and safe captain.

If I were a insurance company I would almost give a person a discount. Again none of the ones I have read about involve a boat going upside down, except a few cats. All are from hitting piers, shore, or other boats. All would benefit from being strapped in. From what I see, the stats are very clear. For once you would hear "4 are safe after boat runs onto a marsh, or into a seawall, or was run over by another vessel?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I will prey for you.

Better yet your passengers.

[Tres]

Most of the ones I looked at are from news stories around the country. If it involved a death it almost always makes the news. 95% of the deaths would have been avoided if the person was starpped into a seat and did not fly out of the boat.

Sure if a person tries to run around at wide open making high speed turns they are going to get hurt. In a pleasure application I dont see this happening with a informed and safe captain.

If I were a insurance company I would almost give a person a discount. Again none of the ones I have read about involve a boat going upside down, except a few cats. All are from hitting piers, shore, or other boats. All would benefit from being strapped in. From what I see, the stats are very clear. For once you would hear "4 are safe after boat runs onto a marsh, or into a seawall, or was run over by another vessel?

OK your the smart one. You know better. EXpert I say. You should start your own insurance company.Yes turn it over in shallow water where you cant even open the canopy. You have NO idea.

[Twin27Advantage]

OK your the smart one. You know better. Move on

Ok, show me the accidents that actually happened during pleasure use that would leave someone trapped in a coffin that did not happen at a race.

The few from poker runs are already tainted by poor judgement or Negligent Operation as defined by the USCG.
"Excessive speed in the vicinity of other boats or in dangerous waters."

[imco offshore]

don,t forget alcohol and drugs on the water, how many accidents did they help?

[skaterdave]

first off this thread was started by a racer that wants to use his "race boat" for pleasure boating. and to make his boat more user friendly he wanted to change his canopy from his current setup of sitting one behind the other to a four man canopy.

if the canopy is properly installed it would add value and safety to his current boat.

next, since he aready has a canopy boat, he's familiar with the canopy routine. so how is it a "coffin" on the water ????

sorry i disagree with the whole concept that canopys are "bad". its a safety device that if educated on how to use would increase your chances in a accident.

currenttly i have not seen or heard of any boat manufacture doing any physical testing of there canopys. the design of these canopys are all based off of past boat wrecks and engineering data from math equations. so lets not compare this to nascar where they actually have done "destructive" testing and can base thier data off of proven facts and tests.

[imco offshore]

well i,m not sure but i think there is a foundation that does research and development on canopys ,,, i think his name is George Linder and the foundation is the Laven foundation,, i do remember crashed boats getting disected and tested for structure. at least they are doing something for our safety