Proposal for classes

[F1-00 Racing]

This only applies to Vee's as I am not familiar enough with cats to get the factors right. What this proposal does is eliminate a bunch of classes and slims the vee side down to 4. It eliminates the any kind of GPS system used for scoring and hopefully makes for equal racing between boats, drivers, and throttlemen. Also a huge concern is to bring the cost of racing down as then the extra monies could be applied to more marketable items to promote our sport and maybe it will turn into the show that I feel it should in the publics eyes. I know I will get beat up as it is obvious that if there are 100 racers, then there would be 90 different agendas. Please tell me what I have done wrong with it so I can make it better as I hope that this will put 20-30 boats in a class each like the old days of F1/F2 that everyone raves about, and to boot everyone will be equal.

1) V-Twin Canopy- pwr to weight with the factor being 7.77
2) V-Single Canopy- pwr to weight with the factor being 8.95
3) V-Twin Open- pwr to weight with the factor being 7.77
4) V-Single Open- pwr to weight with the factor being 8.95

ALL Motors are to be sealed at approved stations and the weight will be posted on the transoms for inspectors to be able to notate upon removal by crane.All motors have to be fuel injected, to much undetectable play in carbs. I know Tyler has a fuel rail system that coverts it over, I am sure others offer it as well. Pwr to weight is used in Class 1 and P1 and no it isnt perfect, but it works and they have several boats in one class instead of 20 different classes. It simplifies it for the fans as much as possible and keeps expenses down. It allows the older heavier boats to have the bigger horsepower and still be competitive with the newer potato chips. Also boats such as the Cat Killer etc would go into an exhibition class with no purse as I dont think they would be too competitive with 23,310 lbs on board. Also to with making it smaller horsepower then you will get more reliability and less expense instead of almost all of the SVU boats breaking every race, well except for that guy with 525's.

The biggest factor behind my proposal is to make racing, racing again. It takes out any possible GPS spikes and also takes away the first to 75, 85, etc wins, now you have to compete with other boats. Everyone now becomes spec and with the proper technical over site, it might put this sport on the map.

Now fire away and tell me what is wrong with it, Dean OPA works so lets not fix it, so no need to respond. I want a way to be able to do away with GPS's altogether and make it racing again. I am open to all criticism as all I hear are problems but here is a proposal for solution.

[F1-00 Racing]

and why would 75% have to go and F themselves? all vees would fit in one of those 4 classes..

[F1-00 Racing]

ok I rephrased to make you happy, to seal a motor the cost can be re-negotiated but in the past it was 500, fuel rails I will have to look into. As Bruce said if you cant afford to race or finish a lap then you shouldnt be in racing

[1waterboy1]

This only applies to Vee's as I am not familiar enough with cats to get the factors right. What this proposal does is eliminate a bunch of classes and slims the vee side down to 4. It eliminates the any kind of GPS system used for scoring and hopefully makes for equal racing between boats, drivers, and throttlemen. Also a huge concern is to bring the cost of racing down as then the extra monies could be applied to more marketable items to promote our sport and maybe it will turn into the show that I feel it should in the publics eyes. I know I will get beat up as it is obvious that if there are 100 racers, then there would be 90 different agendas. Please tell me what I have done wrong with it so I can make it better as I hope that this will put 20-30 boats in a class each like the old days of F1/F2 that everyone raves about, and to boot everyone will be equal.

1) V-Twin Canopy- pwr to weight with the factor being 7.77
2) V-Single Canopy- pwr to weight with the factor being 8.95
3) V-Twin Open- pwr to weight with the factor being 7.77
4) V-Single Open- pwr to weight with the factor being 8.95

ALL Motors are to be sealed at approved stations and the weight will be posted on the transoms for inspectors to be able to notate upon removal by crane.All motors have to be fuel injected, to much undetectable play in carbs. I know Tyler has a fuel rail system that coverts it over, I am sure others offer it as well. Pwr to weight is used in Class 1 and P1 and no it isnt perfect, but it works and they have several boats in one class instead of 20 different classes. It simplifies it for the fans as much as possible and keeps expenses down. It allows the older heavier boats to have the bigger horsepower and still be competitive with the newer potato chips. Also boats such as the Cat Killer etc would go into an exhibition class with no purse as I dont think they would be too competitive with 23,310 lbs on board. Also to with making it smaller horsepower then you will get more reliability and less expense instead of almost all of the SVU boats breaking every race, well except for that guy with 525's.

The biggest factor behind my proposal is to make racing, racing again. It takes out any possible GPS spikes and also takes away the first to 75, 85, etc wins, now you have to compete with other boats. Everyone now becomes spec and with the proper technical over site, it might put this sport on the map.

Now fire away and tell me what is wrong with it, Dean OPA works so lets not fix it, so no need to respond. I want a way to be able to do away with GPS's altogether and make it racing again. I am open to all criticism as all I hear are problems but here is a proposal for solution.

Trent,
Anything to streamline our sport should be strongly considered.Bracket racing certainly has its issues;but it really does allow any boat to race at least somewhat competitively.While the power to weight ratio seems to work to some degree;it does not address the hull configurations(stepped verses conventional) or hull length.What are your thoughts on this issues?I would also like to see our sport get back to more ocean racing...this would certainly help level the playing as well.

[phragle]

if the pwr to wt ration is identical, whats the difference between lid and no lid?? why make 4 classes out of what could be 2?

[skaterdave]

a few issues

first - gps is the cheapest easiest way to tech. theres too much grey area involved with having engine go to dyno shops and the rest of the driveline. say bravo, #6, arneson and shaft drive. now if you could get someone to have a on site dyno that hooks to a prop shaft than this might be the way to go to your speced hp to weight classes.

fuel injection would have to have an air restrictor, there are far more ways to cheat over a carburator. hence the reason nascar and almost every other motorsports governing body specs a carb and techs them with a no or no-go gauge.

your idea seems just like the factory classes which have been tried and failed with the exception of smitty and his 4 SV/bravos.

next why have two of the same exact classes for with basically the only difference being a canopy ? i don't have an answer for this question other than the SVL's fit nicely into P3 and the benefit of a canopy should offset being a shorter boat. agian if they have enough boats (more than 6 or so) to put on there on show let their own class.

cost of having tech done correctly and keeping track of the hp to weight boats would mandate full time inspectors just for these classes. this would be more expensive than have to just check GPS. and remember your reasoning is it to bring out more boats and make it more affordable. this does neither, in my opinion.

i still don't see that big issue with gps. its just like drag racing where you set you car to run a certain speed which is just at the limit of your equipment and then try to match it everytime.

if your like DD and breaking out all the time, IMO your sandbaggin, the org's officails should move you up a class.

next i could only imagine the termoil if the was tried over gps. honsestly if gps is seen as a problem than teching this mess would get real ugly real quick. hence take all the fun out of it and probably run off more than it would bring in.

[F1-00 Racing]

if the pwr to wt ration is identical, whats the difference between lid and no lid?? why make 4 classes out of what could be 2?

I'll use two boats as the models are still actively racing. Simmons(34 Phantom Open) is an open twin with stock 500's, Jim has told me that in perfect ideal conditions he will only run 88 and in its prime it ran 92. Pump It(35 Fountain canopy) has 500's as well and I have been 107 in a sister ship, identical setup. Just as the former F1's would run 78-81 in race trim and SVL's would race 88-91 slight advantage to having a lid

[F1-00 Racing]

Trent,
Anything to streamline our sport should be strongly considered.Bracket racing certainly has its issues;but it really does allow any boat to race at least somewhat competitively.While the power to weight ratio seems to work to some degree;it does not address the hull configurations(stepped verses conventional) or hull length.What are your thoughts on this issues?I would also like to see our sport get back to more ocean racing...this would certainly help level the playing as well.

conventional hull can have stand off box, step/notched hulls couldnt, hull lengths could be added, this applies to the smaller boats. Obviously, length stipulations could be added to each class.

As far as ocean racing, your right, just as Nascar has super speedways, road courses, short tracks, etc I feel that a combination of all water should be in the equation in order to determine the best of the best, not one or the other. We have to keep in mind where we can put on the best show and keep our equipment together for the next show. I love the competition just like the next, maybe more than the next, but we have to keep in mind that a show is what puts food on the table, viewing is paramount. Miami for example after you factor the small sand bar, we run a fairly good distance offshore and cant be seen. My spotter knew our boat because of my red top, not because he could read my decals or numbers(and yes he is very literate)

[DAREDEVIL]

Just for the note,,,A RACER THAT RACED 1/2 RACES IN THE LAST 2 YEARS ,,IS NOW TRYING TO CHANGE EVERYTHING AND BASH RACERS THAT TRY HARD TO ACTUALLY RACE ?????? TOOOOO FUNNY.

U SHOULD STOP DRINKING TRENT !!


OH,,,AND THAT WITHOUT ME WOULDN'T EVEN SHOWED UP IN CLEARWATER !!!! HAHAHAHA

[F1-00 Racing]

a few issues

first - gps is the cheapest easiest way to tech. theres too much grey area involved with having engine go to dyno shops and the rest of the driveline. say bravo, #6, arneson and shaft drive. now if you could get someone to have a on site dyno that hooks to a prop shaft than this might be the way to go to your speced hp to weight classes.

fuel injection would have to have an air restrictor, there are far more ways to cheat over a carburator. hence the reason nascar and almost every other motorsports governing body specs a carb and techs them with a no or no-go gauge.

your idea seems just like the factory classes which have been tried and failed with the exception of smitty and his 4 SV/bravos.

next why have two of the same exact classes for with basically the only difference being a canopy ? i don't have an answer for this question other than the SVL's fit nicely into P3 and the benefit of a canopy should offset being a shorter boat. agian if they have enough boats (more than 6 or so) to put on there on show let their own class.

cost of having tech done correctly and keeping track of the hp to weight boats would mandate full time inspectors just for these classes. this would be more expensive than have to just check GPS. and remember your reasoning is it to bring out more boats and make it more affordable. this does neither, in my opinion.

i still don't see that big issue with gps. its just like drag racing where you set you car to run a certain speed which is just at the limit of your equipment and then try to match it everytime.

if your like DD and breaking out all the time, IMO your sandbaggin, the org's officails should move you up a class.

next i could only imagine the termoil if the was tried over gps. honsestly if gps is seen as a problem than teching this mess would get real ugly real quick. hence take all the fun out of it and probably run off more than it would bring in.

1) We both have issues with DD but in his defense, he was allowed to run P5 in one race and yes he broke out, he was then moved back into P4 for the next race, to date I dont believe he has ever broken out of the current P4 format. you bring up some valid points Dave, but please dont go after him, I offered a proposal as all I hear is problems, so here is a possible solution.

2) I agree about drag racing as I did bracket racing in HS, but the I dare anyone to try and hit the target two laps in a row, I have never seen two laps be the same condition wise in all of my years in racing, in drag racing the only change I have seen is track temp.

3) Here is my main issue with P-class, it was originally created for the weekend warrior to come out be a part of the action and look at the "Pro Series" and see what would be a good fit for them. It started with 70,80,90,100,110. It was 250 to enter and the winner got a checkered flag and a trophy, nothing more nothing less. Very simple if you ask me. Then guys wanted to make a career out of P-class and using P5 as an example you had to have a potential 75-76 mph boat to be able to win in a 70 mph class and a lot of breakouts happened, instead of moving the breakout boats up, lets raise the speed to 72 which then to be competitive you had to be able to run 77-78. Now we have someone who figured the trick out, built a better mouse trap, put a 850hp and propped down but made a torque monster. But it still isnt enough as now we have to bump the speeds up to 75 in order to draw some more boats from the north. When will it end, as you said about DD, he was bumped up, Frank and I broke out in 04 and we were bumped up, instead of raising the speeds every 3 years or every year for that matter bump the teams up and leave the speeds alone. If they dont bump up then dq them every time they breakout, they'll get the hint at some point.

In conclusion, every marketable racing series on tv and so on is spec racing. Nascar, motorcross, rally cars, indy, etc all spec.

As I said Dave, you make very valid points, and I know as everyone else on here knows I have gone after OSS a time or two, ok maybe more, but if we look back at their original 2004 lineup there was only 4 classes and what a show that was, there was like 10 boats in every class. Then it got dilluted with I think 7-8 more classes and egoes and where is OSS now? The only addition to that 4 class format might be a P(ProAm) on Saturdays as a feeder system to the Sunday show. Sometimes its best to keep it simple and if they would have left their original format alone, I feel that OSS would be king right now.

Is my proposal the fix, hell no, but as I have said I see no one offering solutions except "OPA works" hes right, for the moment, add entry fees/ lower the purse and it will back to the 2003 numbers of 15 boats before anyone blinks. I hope Smitty can continue what hes started.

My bottom line goal is to simplify this sport and bring it to the masses, you know the business model that has worked, moonshiners to megastars, why cant we bring this thing from drug runners to megastars? We need to create an equal playing field and let talent win the races, not the biggest wallet.

[SVL66]

My vote is to leave everything as it is. Changing the rule structure now will only chase teams away. Not attract more.

GO YANKEES

[phragle]

I'll use two boats as the models are still actively racing. Simmons(34 Phantom Open) is an open twin with stock 500's, Jim has told me that in perfect ideal conditions he will only run 88 and in its prime it ran 92. Pump It(35 Fountain canopy) has 500's as well and I have been 107 in a sister ship, identical setup. Just as the former F1's would run 78-81 in race trim and SVL's would race 88-91 slight advantage to having a lid

88 to 107.....sawzall the lid, change class and dominate... Smitty's world works right now... P classes are working, V is comptitive and will probably grow... I just want to see a bunch of boats bouncing around as I watch the race and hope I don;t have to stop watching and start working...

[Dude! Sweet!]

I agree with bruce other than the Yankees suck...

Why not a claim rule?

[shifter]

We had gps tracking at the last races on the boats..... works well.

3 classes...

you'll fit in one of them.

pat W

[MikeyFIN]

if your like DD and breaking out all the time, IMO your sandbaggin, the org's officails should move you up a class.

I Wish it would be that way but it isn´t. But the DD will have some improvement in the future to get the boat to finish.

I have a few issues I like to do and they are getting done in the future.

Regarding these rules.. well sealed engines ,,naah,, instead a restrictor plate or GPS as it is.
In Offshore GPS gives the T-man some meaning, a Restrictor plate would give it to the Mechanics... and don´t ask how I know it

[MikeyFIN]

conventional hull can have stand off box, step/notched hulls couldnt, hull lengths could be added, this applies to the smaller boats. Obviously, length stipulations could be added to each class.

Actually on a notch bottom a standoff box is to 95% useless, it´s cake on a cake.

As far as ocean racing, your right, just as Nascar has super speedways, road courses, short tracks, etc I feel that a combination of all water should be in the equation in order to determine the best of the best, not one or the other. We have to keep in mind where we can put on the best show and keep our equipment together for the next show. I love the competition just like the next, maybe more than the next, but we have to keep in mind that a show is what puts food on the table, viewing is paramount. Miami for example after you factor the small sand bar, we run a fairly good distance offshore and cant be seen. My spotter knew our boat because of my red top, not because he could read my decals or numbers(and yes he is very literate)

So you mean some races should be run on a lake in flat water too ???

Trent just busting your nutters but hey this is offshore. Let the Spectators come out to the sea or watch from a screen/ TV´s on Race Channels ?

[MikeyFIN]

my vote is to leave everything as it is. Changing the rule structure now will only chase teams away. Not attract more.

Go reds

+1

[Ratickle]

Just for the note,,,A RACER THAT RACED 1/2 RACES IN THE LAST 2 YEARS ,,IS NOW TRYING TO CHANGE EVERYTHING AND BASH RACERS THAT TRY HARD TO ACTUALLY RACE ?????? TOOOOO FUNNY.

U SHOULD STOP DRINKING TRENT !!


OH,,,AND THAT WITHOUT ME WOULDN'T EVEN SHOWED UP IN CLEARWATER !!!! HAHAHAHA

Come on Scott, it takes all of us to have a civil discussion to improve racing. Everyone has ideas. Picking out the best takes discussion. And, turn off the caps..

I have respect for anyone who tries to race. It isn't easy in any class at any venue.

[Ratickle]

We had gps tracking at the last races on the boats..... works well.

3 classes...

you'll fit in one of them.

pat W

Have some more info Pat?

[Ratickle]

3) Here is my main issue with P-class, it was originally created for the weekend warrior to come out be a part of the action and look at the "Pro Series" and see what would be a good fit for them. It started with 70,80,90,100,110. It was 250 to enter and the winner got a checkered flag and a trophy, nothing more nothing less. Very simple if you ask me. Then guys wanted to make a career out of P-class and using P5 as an example you had to have a potential 75-76 mph boat to be able to win in a 70 mph class and a lot of breakouts happened, instead of moving the breakout boats up, lets raise the speed to 72 which then to be competitive you had to be able to run 77-78. Now we have someone who figured the trick out, built a better mouse trap, put a 850hp and propped down but made a torque monster. But it still isnt enough as now we have to bump the speeds up to 75 in order to draw some more boats from the north. When will it end, as you said about DD, he was bumped up, Frank and I broke out in 04 and we were bumped up, instead of raising the speeds every 3 years or every year for that matter bump the teams up and leave the speeds alone. If they dont bump up then dq them every time they breakout, they'll get the hint at some point.

This is well thought out and should be the focus of discussion for all orgs.

My opinions;

OPA has the best current structure for P classes. It works, the proof is in the increase in boat counts during this economic downturn. Run the numbers against any other classs or org.

I believe it has not been changed, so that helps all to improve. If the rules stay the same, I see no issue. If you want to tweak your boat and move your boat down, I see no issue. But, I'd just like a little more clatification on the written rules.

I don't know what your issue was with the GPS unit in OPA Trent. I'd like to hear. My guess, they worked on it to make sure it would not happen in the future. Frank takes care of his babies..... But I'd like to hear.
I think theirs is the fairest currently. Frank tests them all the time. I've seen 2 to 3 tenths in identical GPS's in the same vehicle. In SBI I'd buy 10, run them all at once, and return all but the lowest reading one. ANyway, what happened?