Ford Sweeps Car and Truck of the Year

[Indy]

This would be the right wing anti-GM wack job talk I mentioned earlier.

Put me in that boat too. I've had a few Chevy's along with their flagship car and that's exactly why I own Fords now.

[hotjava66]

although this thread is totally off topic i will chime in. i live and do business in an area that was totally based on GM for our economy, and know first hand some of the situation. it is bittersweet for me because i am an american through and through and want to see our companies do well. unfortunately GM was a poorly managed, run into the ground mess, robbed by its labor and management from top to bottom. i knew and know many people who worked there including family that did little or nothing and made big money, benefits, retirement etc. the union workers here saw GM as the enemy, even though they made great money, and stole everything they could, management had no control so did not care what happened as long as they were paid. the only people here that could afford their products were those who were building them. i knew people in their "jobs bank" program that were paid 90% of their wage to stay home for 3 years because they were not needed but could not be let go due to contract. GM also had many times more retired people drawing pensions than they had working. it was destined for failure for many years in my opinion. the bailout situation not only screwed the bondholders but many suppliers in the state, who were owed millions but got nothing, due to the bypassing of the bankruptcy system. those companies folded and millions of jobs were lost, all to save the union boys and their votes. this state is in dire straights now regardless of the bailout, due to too much government, taxes, and unions and their attitudes towards business. i still buy US because i love this country but it burns my *ss to support bad business, greed. my business is crap because of all this, and im not getting a bailout, i just work harder for less and try to survive. my biggest problem now is if the gov has controlling interest in gm who votes those shares? it will be the special interests and campaign funders who have run this country into the ground. i hope GM recovers but they need major changes to do so and goverment running them is not it. hard work, innovation, production, effeciency, is what will save not only GM but our country, not goverment or taxes. goverment does need to be on the side of business, but not in this fashion. i agree w/RLJ that we all need to create value, the so called "new economy" is the death of our national economy in my opinion. everyone here wants to sit around and do nothing and be paid well for it. it is human nature, but it used to be if you didnt do *hit you dont have *hit. not anymore, where else in the world are all the "poor" people fat?

[Tommy Gun]

Yeah, because sales of auto mfg's have all gone real well. That capacity would not have been bought or bought for pennies on the dollar. GM would be liquidated, a tiny fraction bought, and more former great US things owned by foreigners. That would be real great for the US (oh, and the lenders all end up completely screwed anyways).

This country's lack of realization that the market is not free, and the competition values their big industry and protects them is pathetic. I'm so ****ing sick of uninformed "Americans" rooting against the home team, while the competition they root for (and site for not needing this help or that) has been propped up by their gov'ts all along.

Go sell a foreign car in Japan, Korea, China and see how that goes as a foreign entity. Yet here we are dumb enough to root for them to win. They get it, we don't. Modern "war" is economic, and we are going down the ****ter. What happens when they decide they no longer want to keep buying our debt in USD, or at all? We have a constant flow out of money, combined with huge debt to everyone. Real power is earned by being a lender, not owing everyone.

So keep rooting for GM to fail to prove some idiotic point of yours, so that you lose your tax investment.

You can't claim " let capitalism decide" for the US when you are competing on a foreign stage that has no concept of a "fair fight". But I guess you guys think all this country needs is bankers and waiters, why make anything or actually create value.

Listen, last thing I want is GM to fail to prove a point. Point is GM ALREADY FAILED. You think I want to buy a Jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy UAW and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want ME to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? ZERO. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...I buy American evey chance I get, unless it's CRAP, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

[Tommy Gun]

Two words to reinforce my point: JOB BANK

The elimination of the Job Bank should save GM quite a lot in payroll expenses. Whereas employees in the Job Bank made nearly 100 percent of their normal wages – despite not having to report for work – the new system will see out-of-work employees making about 72 percent of their normal wages, according to Automotive News.

So the new system provides out-of-work employess 72 percent of their normal wages...wow that's some real hardship right there.

And the UAW "allowed it" wow, what generous guys they are...considering the alternative was NO WORK.

[JupiterSunsation]

Listen, last thing I want is GM to fail to prove a point. Point is GM ALREADY FAILED. You think I want to buy a Jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy UAW and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want ME to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? ZERO. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...I buy American evey chance I get, unless it's CRAP, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

+1 Best post I have read on any subject! ( and I like GM cars).

RJ don't take the posts personally, they reflect GM as a whole company not you as a single worker. I believe all the UAW plants suffer from the same bad management that has killed the chance of any American automaker of being the #1 worldwide......

[Knot 4 Me]

listen, last thing i want is gm to fail to prove a point. Point is gm already failed. You think i want to buy a jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy uaw and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want me to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? Zero. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...i buy american evey chance i get, unless it's crap, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

+ 2.

[DollaBill]

Listen, last thing I want is GM to fail to prove a point. Point is GM ALREADY FAILED. You think I want to buy a Jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy UAW and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want ME to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? ZERO. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...I buy American evey chance I get, unless it's CRAP, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

+3. game over

[JohnS]

TG hit the nail on the head.
Anytime the gov't "invests" in anything, its with our money. Some of us don't feel bailing out a failed company is a prudent investment. But we taxpayers have no choice and no say but the only thing certain is we will get the bill for it. Those tax dollars could have gone to a better initiative or investment, or heck, just let us keep it and invest in our own companies. And for the record, I'm a GM guy too.

[RLJ676]

Listen, last thing I want is GM to fail to prove a point. Point is GM ALREADY FAILED. You think I want to buy a Jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy UAW and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want ME to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? ZERO. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...I buy American evey chance I get, unless it's CRAP, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

Nobody wanted the gov't to bail out GM. But when the financial system collapses, and the banks won't loan to anyone (GM to add liquidity or car shoppers to buy) the gov't was the only option. GM has clearly made many mistakes, but the biggest is being so large in the past. The hundreds of thousands of workers from the past collecting benefits are not an easy problem to solve, and nobody giving them those benefits foresaw a future competing with the world who has none of those burdens! Combine that with bankers greed collapsing the entire financial system and you have 2008.

Two words to reinforce my point: JOB BANK

The elimination of the Job Bank should save GM quite a lot in payroll expenses. Whereas employees in the Job Bank made nearly 100 percent of their normal wages – despite not having to report for work – the new system will see out-of-work employees making about 72 percent of their normal wages, according to Automotive News.

So the new system provides out-of-work employess 72 percent of their normal wages...wow that's some real hardship right there.

And the UAW "allowed it" wow, what generous guys they are...considering the alternative was NO WORK.

This is an old article (what's the date on it?). 99.9% sure the stupid jobs banks are gone now. They were an abused system and far too large, but you realize when demand fluctuates and your labor need goes up and down, it's not too easy to hire and fire people who are supposed to be well trained. The transplants do the same thing, they just have a smaller workforce.

[RLJ676]

+3. game over

If by game over you mean the investments been made and there's nothing that'll undo it, than yeah the game's over.

Now if you want to continue going around harping on GM so you lose your investment you're so pissed about........I can't see any logic there.

If you don't like the new cars, don't buy them. But your nonsense about GM accomplishes nothing.

[RLJ676]

+1 Best post I have read on any subject! ( and I like GM cars).

RJ don't take the posts personally, they reflect GM as a whole company not you as a single worker. I believe all the UAW plants suffer from the same bad management that has killed the chance of any American automaker of being the #1 worldwide......

I try not to get worked up about this.

It's not easy working in such a visible industry where everyone is an armchair CEO. It was annoying before the recession, it's hell now.

It's just funny how everyone has these loud opinions when they pretty clearly know nothing about the company or industry.

[DollaBill]

If by game over you mean the investments been made and there's nothing that'll undo it, than yeah the game's over.

Now if you want to continue going around harping on GM so you lose your investment you're so pissed about........I can't see any logic there.

If you don't like the new cars, don't buy them. But your nonsense about GM accomplishes nothing.

I didnt say it would accomplish anything. This is a forum where members express opinion and debate issues.

And it seems my opinion isn't the only response you consider nonsense. I'm discussing an issue and don't want to too abrasive. You're a member here and I'm sure we would get along well as most of us do. I just wanted to get that out there

[RLJ676]

I didnt say it would accomplish anything. This is a forum where members express opinion and debate issues.

And it seems my opinion isn't the only response you consider nonsense. I'm discussing an issue and don't want to too abrasive. You're a member here and I'm sure we would get along well as most of us do. I just wanted to get that out there

Trust me, a lot of people I have a ton of things in common with and I disagree pretty completely on this issue. Seeing your posts, we would pretty much agree on everything else I believe.

Like I said, there is a ton of parts moving in what has happened, and just sucks to see all the negativity from so many Americans that aren't aware of most of it. I work with globally with people all over the world, and there's just a difference in their attitude in supporting their companies (that their gov't shares) that this country lacks. I just can't see the value in someone boycotting GM for this reason. If you hate the cars, had a crappy one in the past, etc, that I get.

[mosi]

When a person says "Buy American.".....does that mean HONDA?

[JupiterSunsation]

I try not to get worked up about this.

It's not easy working in such a visible industry where everyone is an armchair CEO. It was annoying before the recession, it's hell now.

It's just funny how everyone has these loud opinions when they pretty clearly know nothing about the company or industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50qSV_F-nAE

Very sad HBO documentary about closing GM's Dayton SUV plant......If you have an hour to kill you will be sad by the end of the video.....

[RLJ676]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50qSV_F-nAE

Very sad HBO documentary about closing GM's Dayton SUV plant......If you have an hour to kill you will be sad by the end of the video.....

I've seen it.

Last month I was in Pontiac at a stamping facility that was closing down another building. Parking lot's made to hold thousands of cars with less than 50 in them. The remaining massive building that used to be full of presses now has a few lines and the rest is full of service parts. It was real depressing.

[Tommy Gun]

Nobody wanted the gov't to bail out GM. But when the financial system collapses, and the banks won't loan to anyone (GM to add liquidity or car shoppers to buy) the gov't was the only option. GM has clearly made many mistakes, but the biggest is being so large in the past. The hundreds of thousands of workers from the past collecting benefits are not an easy problem to solve, and nobody giving them those benefits foresaw a future competing with the world who has none of those burdens! Combine that with bankers greed collapsing the entire financial system and you have 2008.



This is an old article (what's the date on it?). 99.9% sure the stupid jobs banks are gone now. They were an abused system and far too large, but you realize when demand fluctuates and your labor need goes up and down, it's not too easy to hire and fire people who are supposed to be well trained. The transplants do the same thing, they just have a smaller workforce.

1-28-2009 Less than a year ago and after they had already gone a begging to the gov't for money; via private jet.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/uaw-allo...-job-bank.html

[RLJ676]

1-28-2009 Less than a year ago and after they had already gone a begging to the gov't for money; via private jet.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/uaw-allo...-job-bank.html

Gone now though.....

[Tommy Gun]

Gone now though.....

Yeah I thinks its great that the company is going down the tubes and they still had a job bank...go UAW! Guess they really needed those guys in reserve in case someone happened to place a random order for a million cars.

[BBB725]

Gone now though.....

Correct, what's the latest on retiree health care obligations?

Who's funding it now? Union or Company?

And I'm not being a wise guy, Last I heard GM was going to contribute 35 billion to the fund to relive itself of further obligation.