Twin Engine GPS or Tech Class Discussion

I'll copy a couple of quotes over her, but when I raised the point in the Raise Your Hand for Key West thread that I believe SBI is one class short currently, a discussion started about why.

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Originally Posted by Ratickle

By the way, my opinion, you are one "P" class short now. It takes too much power to get a 34' to 38' Cig, Scarab, etc. up to 95mph.... 85 was about right....

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This is my opinion, still is.

Where do the old F2 type boats run? Jim Simmons, arguably the best running twin engine F2 still running, runs in an 85 MPH Class 4 OPA. Until this year, similar in SBI as far as maximum allowed speed.

It shocks me that the boat which I believe has won every P4 World's the last 3 years, and is also a duplicate Triple Crown winner, now has no class to run in.

But, my bigger concern, is that all of the similar type boats also have no place to run in SBI. As I said above, one class short in my opinion.

I would have zero issue with it being a spec class again. I'll also copy over a couple of the other quotes.

Keep it pleasant all. :D

From there;

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Originally Posted by Ratickle

The fastest Factory 2 boat I know of, ever, was the Let's Play boat. As far as I know, it went barely over 90 in Biloxi, but it also completely burned the exhaust up because the ECM had been modified to lock out the temperature, so it was illegal due to the modified ECM.

The Twisted Styx boat went 91. something, on the river not in a race, with only one person in the boat and almost zero fuel. It never hit 90 in a race.

But, even that is not my point. My point is there are several twin engine boats out there ready to race with no class to race in. Could you modify all of the old F2 boats to run 95? Probably. Does it make any sense, to me no.

Number one reason, too fast for reasonable safety in an open boat during race conditions.

If someone who owns one of these boats wants to discuss it, hopefully they'll start a thread. When Jim Simmons is only running SVL, and not the boat that won the triple crown several years in SBI, there seems to be something worth discussing.

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Also from there;

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Originally Posted by Ratickle

My honest opinion, looking at hull designs/speed capabilities, etc. It is around 85 mph capable. The question is, can you keep parity without having it be a GPS class:confused:?

I also believe, based on the old F2's and the OPA GPS 85 class, it is fairly safe. Trent has gone over and out, Simmons runs his at the front, etc.

My gut feel says a 30' minimum, open cockpit Vee, 509 CuIn maximum no power adders, weight ? minimum, Bravo Drive 1/2" below, maximum RPM 5750 or so, won't go over that. And then put the parity rule with the drive height like SVL.

It's basically a big SVL with twins, or a Vee CatLight with Bravo's.

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I've been trying my best to stay off of the boards in general but since this directly does affect me, I'll contribute my feelings. This is my opinion and mine alone as I do not speak for Jim, nor OPA or SBI.

I was directly approached in Key West last year by Richie Dancision(Chief Referee for SBI) about raising the class to 90 for 2011. I agreed and have stood by that stance ever since. When the 2011 rule book was released it was modified to 90 mph and in the next 3 days was re-issued at the current 95. Upon my inquiry as to how and why it changed, it was stated that one(1) of the P2 teams had called in and said if it was raised to 95 they would drop in and run in it. No one else, including myself, had voted or called in and the rule became 95. I was asked to vote, however I abstained as with the pay structure of SBI vs. OPA along with the television package, my business plan dictates that OPA is the best place for my team to run and I felt that a vote on behalf of my team was not fair to the SBI loyalist that run each race and me relegating myself to being a part time SBI racer.

Now with the above being stated, I was kinda perplexed that they brought back the 95mph class as the last time the class was even run in SBI was the 2008 Worlds with Davis Motorsports taking the title. But thats why JC makes the big bucks, as obviously he knows something I dont and I respect and stand behind his decision.

Now the problem with bringing us back as a "spec" class is the fact that I have 525's in the former "Lets Play" Formula and Jim has 500's in his Phantom. The two primary boats in this discussion arent even matched equally so "spec" is a moot discussion.

No matter what changes are made with the speeds and/or rules, each association faces huge decisions as how many boats will be gained vs. how many will be lost. SBI evidentially felt that making it 95 was in the best interest of their organization and my team only wishes them the best and hope that it works out for them.

Side note: Jim and I both ran NYC with him in the Octane and me in the Peters & May and we both brought our other boats. I was asked by Richie D. why I had brought the Formula and my response was simple, I knew Jim had to bring his 34 Phantom(with his trailer deal) so I didnt want his boat to feel lonely not being allowed to fit into a class and being forced to be parked on the docks....:boobflash:

Thanks Trent, I almost called you to see if you were paying attention. Are you going to Key West by any chance?

As for P-3 in SBI, there were 6 races this year, there was only 1 P3 boat. And it only competed in 3 of the 6 races.

So, time for another discussion with those involved participating. I'm not putting Team Kilt down in any way, period. But I'm sure they would like to race sombody.....

In my opinion, a tech class is a possibility. Personally, I would have zero issue with the 500 vs the 525.

No Key West for us this year.

That's too bad Trent. I was hoping you'd take at least one of the boats. Or if not, cruise down and chat with everyone.

I appreciate it Paul, maybe next year and with us being in Michigan for a month next summer, maybe we can bump into each other at some point.

Paul I think you will see Kilt, Pump It and Time Bandit in P3 for KW. We'll have to see who else shows and then go from there.

That will definitely be better.

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Originally Posted by Ratickle

In my opinion, a tech class is a possibility. Personally, I would have zero issue with the 500 vs the 525.

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Ok put a set of 500's in a boat and then when a set of 525's come along and spank you will feel differently, this was the start and the demise of Factory 2 racing, on top of some 525's being "HOT"!

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Originally Posted by Pete B

Ok put a set of 500's in a boat and then when a set of 525's come along and spank you will feel differently, this was the start and the demise of Factory 2 racing, on top of some 525's being "HOT"!

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Yep!

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Originally Posted by Pete B

Ok put a set of 500's in a boat and then when a set of 525's come along and spank you will feel differently, this was the start and the demise of Factory 2 racing, on top of some 525's being "HOT"!

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Originally Posted by Steve Miklos

Yep!

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Ahhh, you miss my point.....

I know it was the demise, but what could have been done to keep parity? You cannot tell me nothing could have been done. Mercury is currently out of the picture, so we have a bunch of "A" and "F2" boats out there that no longer fit in any (?) class.

What if, for an example only, 500's could use any drive height, 525's had to be 1" below the bottom, and #6's with 525's had to be 2" below the bottom?

Or some other parity rule? RPM maximum allowed, prop diameter, etc. Steve knows as much about what can be tracked as maximum RPM with no chance for cheating than anyone probably.

I must say I don't really like weight adders, because I think it makes the boats unsafe when they carry extra weight.

there are too many variables in the whole mix boat lgt, etc with twin boat you have twice as much expense, streamlining classes is what will make it better, Single Vee spec class, from affordability, to building a class. these old f-2 boats that sit will become the historic boats of tomorrow. They would be great for the historic class. Right now is the time to seize the moment, and watch the two largest spec classes in KW. SS and SVL and know if you want to Spec race this is the direction.

So, if it's "impossible" to build a reasonably cost spec class, (and I don't think it is with today's technology:)), then the GPS class is where the direction should be.

I happen to think Lucky Strike's old A boat, at 31', twin engines, and TRS's is a viable race boat at 80mph, becomes somewhat iffy at 85mph, and is a no way at 90 or 95mph.

Another example would be the old Crazy Chicken boat (single engine) at 33' that used to run P5, but at 33' is now too long. Another boat that is viable at 80, iffy at 85, and a no way at 90 or 95 mph.

Would two classes of GPS at the same speed, one with singles at 80mph to 30', and one with anything engine wise at 80mph or 85mph, 30' 1" to 38'11" be the answer?

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Originally Posted by Pete B

Ok put a set of 500's in a boat and then when a set of 525's come along and spank you will feel differently, this was the start and the demise of Factory 2 racing, on top of some 525's being "HOT"!

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You are assuming the 500s are not "hot". That may be a mistake since there are no rules requiring Jim to run stock power.

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Originally Posted by Wahoo 214

You are assuming the 500s are not "hot". That may be a mistake since there are no rules requiring Jim to run stock power.

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That's a good point. And they may be. But, you've raced a bunch. I'm trying to figure out a way to have the older boats, between 30' and 39' be competitive in a class without spending a fortune to add blowers, Konrads or 6's, etc.

Basically what's been done with the under 26' boat (although that is really getting interesting), the under 30' single engine Vee, now what happens to all of the boats over 30', or with twins, that don't have canopies?

I'm just using a couple of boats as examples. It may not be able to be done, but I'm just thinking about it now because of end of year and time for review.

I guess I'm mostly tired of seeing boats (classes) disappear or downsize due to stuff like we are discussing. Where did all the "A", "F1", "F2" boats go?

This is the same problem P1 had in Europe, now they r doing away with weight to horse power, and racing either P1 ro P2 in KW. After talking with some of the racers there I dint realize it was that bad.

It's really sweet they are coming over here to race....

Paul,

I wouldnt put much thought into it. We still have a place to run.

Boats are disappearing not because of class restructure, but due to the economy and yes I'll go political for one second, P1 with there 3 SVL boats and OSS holding on to its 1 race site with 3 SVL's, 2 SS, and 2 P4 boats, I mean come on...... LET THEM DIE IN PEACE. (P1 will survive with their single outboard deal and racing the hydro sites)OPA has weathered the post Haggin era and stayed afloat with consistent counts above 25 and when a nuclear holocaust happens there will be JC and cockroaches left. The racers are the reason for all this idiotic dilution of this sport. Sponsors saw the instability of Indy when they had the split into 2 associations, they look at us and see 4????? wow what a joke we have made of our sport.

Heres my proposal(take it with a grain of salt)

OPA gets the bracket classes(its what got them to where they are today)
SBI gets the spec("Boat Racing of the Rich and Famous" is their credo)

Now you have 2 separate entities that dont step on each others toes and could bring our sport to where we all want it to be.

Paul, its not just about Jim and I as examples, we still can duke it out up north, its the whole picture and in this economy, we need to trim the fat and not necessarily agree with one another, but streamline things and become strong. KW is like a one night stand:lots of boats and everyone has a blast, but over the long haul(the full season with paying towns), how do we make it work?

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Originally Posted by F1-00 Racing

....but over the long haul(the full season with paying towns), how do we make it work?

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That's the entire point.....:)

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Originally Posted by Ratickle

That's the entire point.....:)

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So what are your thoughts on my proposal?

I'll call you today, got a couple questions.

The biggest issue I see, the plan includes nothing to make the sport grow across the nation. Think of it as marketing a "New" product, even though it's not (exactly). It should be treated as new so everyone can step outside the current (and past) boxes and think about it. We are competing against things like snowboarding and dragracing for TV time.

Look at it as if someone came up to all of us and said, "I'd like to make this a sport where fans look forward to the excitement of watching the next race, or next TV show."

We talk about what used to work, what didn't work, what went wrong, etc. But, we need to talk about what will bring everything to the front as if it were a new project. It is very good to use history as a measuring device for failures and successes. But one thing I've learned in business, you can spend all your time talking about the problem but then it gives you no time to talk about the solution. (Kind of like politicians, doesn't work).

You talk about the economy costing us boats. Yet, after SBI adjusted the rules last year for SVL, there will be 8 boats in the class in Key West. Why? My opinion is because they have made the rules very close to where they need to be to keep all of the boats competitive for the near future. (My opinion is they still need a maximum RPM rule.) So, a market was created for the class, and the class is back to the numbers of a couple years ago.

Now, figure out all the reasons why and make a spot that cost a similar amount to run for twins. In SVL the rules are (Very rough overview);

509 CuIn maximum - Teched for compliance
9.0 to 1 compression maximum - Teched for compliance
32' maximum in SBI, 30' maximum in all other orgs (again I'd like to see it standardized worldwide like thy've done with the Cat Outboards)
Bravo equivalent drive
Drive height 1/2" below back bottom of keel.
Drive height lowered additionally for parity if required.

That is an extremely short overview. But, it makes the class competitive, reasonably priced (for Offshore boat racing), and the more boats that come, the more exciting it will be. It looks as if there may be 13 teams running next year in SVL. We'll see. But, with these rules (and I hope a maximum RPM rule added), the budget for running a boat over a season becomes somewhat reasonable. And, it makes it difficult for someone with a pot of money to come in and "buy" trophies.

That is the main reason I want to see the maximum RPM rule. Start buzzing the engines over 6000RPM and the guy with the most money will be the guy that can replace engines every couple races instead of every couple seasons. Then all the others will leave. It is less than $600 to add a MyChron plug in jack and recorder system for maximum RPM where the referee reads it after the race just like they currently read GPS for the Sportsman classes.

So, look at the Sportsman Classes in OPA. The Class 6, Class 5, and Class 4 are thriving. Why? Because they are affordable, and the rules have not changed for years. But, why did Class SV fall apart? Rules changed so boats fell out and disappeared, plus modifications were allowed which cost excessive money is my opinion.

Now, SBI changed the GPS speeds for a couple classes. My opinion is they tried to make things better, but the results for the year say it didn't work. One boat ran in 3 out of 6 races in P3, one! None in the other three races. So, all I am trying to do is start a conversation about what it would take to have those classes build back up.

There is a chance P4 will have a dozen boats in Key West. Why?

Best chance for P3 appears to be 3 boats. Why?

I think the racers need to look at these things, talk to their orgs, and make recommendations. This is the time of year to do that.

From Steve on the Key West thread.

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Originally Posted by Steve Miklos

The top F2's were pushing 95 MPH once the 525's were in with the last Mercury ECM "flash". By the time the circuit made it half a season it was clear that parity was long gone. If you look at the 2003 stats 500 boats in either F1 or F2 did not stand a chance. We made some changes in Sarasota to try and even it out but it became clear we need to go back to an engine less than 500 hp (think the carb 500 output) for safety, parity and cost issues.
Steve

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Originally Posted by XtremeRacing

I agree the 525 were the beginning of the end for factory class. It was a shame Mercury forced the 525 on APBA at the time, the 500 was a perfect motor for the class. But history shows Mercury has doner it time and time again, no different then SC with the 750/850's .

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Originally Posted by Dunbar 104

I don't think anyone will have to worry about Mercury forcing anything on anybody for a long time. Only thing that might remotely change that is if Illmor started to get a little to much market share.

It is good to see SVL and Cat outboard growing.

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With today's technology tough, wouldn't it be possible to make an easy tech check rule to make parity between the three different engines?

ie;

500 carb, 5850 max RPM
500 EFI, 5650 max RPM
525EFI, 5450 max RPM

Or something similar?

It certainly worked for those with a single engine boat 30' or less.

Now to figure out what to do for those who have twins, or a boat bigger than 30'.

I'm really leaning towards 85mph (or maybe 90mph), 38'11" maximum, Mono Hull.

Some I've talked to say no Speedmasters, Surface Drives, and no Canopy's. I'm not convinced yet that any of those give an unfair advantage.

It would be like saying you can't run because of the speedmaster or Wil can't run because of the canopy.

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Originally Posted by 600sci

If i may ??................

the P4 is because we changed the rules to single engine 30 foot max 80 MPH and this is almost every single engine boat today !

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When i came up with this idea..( YES ME ) about combining the classes 5 & 4 and make it single engine only 80 MPH.. i also talked to most twin engine owners and told them they need to send an e-mail to JC about theyr class to make it 90 MPH so they could still run. EVERYBODY that i talked to, told me it was a great idea and they will send theyr toughts in. NOBODY ( sorry ) almost all of them did not send anything ( Trent did ) and now all others complain !

The ones that ran P3 ( like Pump it ) said they dont care..so nothing got changed since they did not care !

.....Are there really others interested in this P3 class at all ??
Thats what matters most for somebody to change a class speed.
P4 went super great and will continue to do so with this change ....since now its fair again !

LETS JUST RACE AND HAVE FUN !!!!!

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Scott,

I have tried my best to behave and you have done way better here on the boards as of late, however what you stated above is completely false.

.....I left this sport after being an SBI mostly racer for over 6-7 yrs and took some time off and upon my return I went to where the competition was.

Also I DID NOT send anything in to SBI as you stated that I did. My actions were clearly documented on page 1 of this thread in my post. As is how it was originally released as 90 mph and mysteriously went to 95 in a 3 day period.

You claim that it was your idea, great claim it, who cares, we've only been discussing it since you were just a wet spot on racing's leg. Regardless of who's claim to fame the 80 mph deal is; I think it is the best thing as it allowed my Fountain the best fit since F1 is no longer.

Also you are saying that we are all complaining. I havent seen Jim on here posting and I am sure you wont. I am not certainly complaining as Paul brought up a topic that directly affects me both with the single and the twin application since both of my boats are former F1 and F2 boats. I stated that when asked I responded to an official and in informal talks verbally that I would be ok with 90. I also have stated the JC has a business to run and just as Walmart, McDonalds, etc, he has products(classes) that he offers. Ok fine a SAFE class for Jim and I to run in is NOT offered so just as in NYC, our boats will sit on the trailer at the SBI sites. I AM NOT COMPLAINING, I COULD CARE LESS, I have a place to run, Jim has a place to run his 34. If JC wants to offer a product that is suitable for our twin to run in then my team will make the best business decision for itself and go from there. Then again no promises as it is really hard to leave a situation that pays over a "g" a race within a week of completion to go and only possibly win at most $375.00 and have to wait till December to get it:confused: I'm not saying it as a bad thing, however JC runs a "for profit" business and I respect and stand by every decision he makes. I run a "for profit" business as well(that whats the accountant keeps trying to tell me:icon_bs:) and we all have to make easy and tough decisions in the business world to stay afloat.

Instead of focusing on something that doesnt even affect you, why dont you focus on how the 2010 World Champion P3 boat(95 mph), a canopied boat with a 750 Supercat motor in it!! How can it possibly be allowed to run in a 80 mph class? Instead of focusing on something that doesnt affect you, now that you are finishing, why dont you figure out how to accelerate so you arent left behind at the starts.

I had a great conversation with Paul on the phone and I am sure he'll agree with me in the fact that I DONT CARE and I am certainly not losing sleep over this. My mission was to come out and prove that Simmons aint that bad and can easily be beat. It wasnt exactly easy, but guess what, he aint the king of the hill no more, so mission accomplished. Now its time for me to come up with a new challenge and go out and accomplish that.

Go down to Key West and run your race or as you keep putting on Facebook go down for your "party" ........Good luck!!!!!

Still love ya bud(in a manly way of course), just aggravated when someone posts false information

and Scott think about this. Your boat is 2" longer than the specified rules in the SBI and OPA rule books. You are an "Exception" to the rules.(in more ways than one lol) "Walk softly and carry a big stick" Teddy Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by 600sci

Messured by WHOM ???? :huh:

u seem to know more then i do about my boat...WOW:rolleyes:

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you and an OPA official in OB 2010 and by yourself and me in front of Paradise Cove at a Sponsor appearance the both of us did prior to the Cocoa race 2011. In your attempt to prove the OPA official wrong you had borrowed a tape measure from the manager and you stood at the stern and I took the roll and extended it to the bow. Upon you verifying that I did not move and proved the OPA official was correct in his measurement, you snickered and shrugged your shoulders and said "OH"

For someone the professes to know it all, you sure do have a lot of memory loss

Also as well while your in KW why dont you ask the guys what the P class speed was back in 2002 and 2003 ding ding P4 was 80 APBA LLC ran it as GPS, SBI ran it as avg speed, it was then changed in 04 by SBI. When did you start racing??? 07, 08?????

Any more history you want to know, let me know:toetap05:

My opinion guys....



2" over, grandfathered in forever, great....


I personally like the 6" + rule in APBA. (At least I think it's there still).

Boys and girls continue and when you are finished I will reflect alot of old threads that cover ALL OF THIS....but please the entertainment factor is awesome!!!!

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Originally Posted by Sean Stinson

Boys and girls continue and when you are finished I will reflect alot of old threads that cover ALL OF THIS....but please the entertainment factor is awesome!!!!

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You had better participate bud......

You will be in Key West to chat, won't you?

IMO a huge threat to US offshore is a by product of our terrible economy. The loss of our current fleet of higher class (C2, C1 and extreme) boats overseas. For example:

My Bat Boat = Sweden
My Cat = Austraila
Derek's Skater = New Zealand
My Fountain + Trinidad
Muscle = Trinidad
Snack Attack = Trinidad
Saratoga Stampied = Trinidad
38 Phantom = Trinidad

and many more I'm sure.

Wonder if OPA can have a race in Trinidad????:D


I understand what everyone is saying. However, I still think there is a spot for a twin engine vee.

Paul,

Per Beckley there are 2 P3 boats in KW, I am assuming Kilt and Pump It, which are both for sale. Pretty sure you will see changes made in the class speed in SBI over the winter, but then again who knows. It will all work itself out.

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Originally Posted by F1-00 Racing

Paul,

Per Beckley there are 2 P3 boats in KW, I am assuming Kilt and Pump It, which are both for sale. Pretty sure you will see changes made in the class speed in SBI over the winter, but then again who knows. It will all work itself out.

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All the racers can do is get together, figure out which boats are out there and want to run if there was a class they fit into, then try to work with the orgs to get it to happen.

I'll chat with a bunch of them in Key West I imagine.

I am already starting to form some strong opinions based on the conversations I've had with racers.

Sorry the update stuff took so long guys. Plus we still have bugs.....