Amsoil SVG Severe Lube Water Tolerance?

Printable View

03-17-2011, 12:18 PM
Rage

Amsoil SVG Severe Lube Water Tolerance?

Merc states their drive lubes will still work if contaminated by some water like up to ~10% as does Amsoil for their AGM Marine lube. I once had an old outboard that before I repaired it had a persistant water entrance problem from a damaged water pump sealing surface at the drive shaft that confirmed this capability for the Merc lube.

I have been using Redline Shock Proof Gear Lube (Heavy) since 2006 on a new Bravo X1. At that time Redline application chart recommended it for drives. That chart is now gone and Redline currently says not to use this in drives. A post on a diffferent site reported catistrophic drive failure with the Redline lube do to water contamination.

My Redline lube last season tested with 0.5% water vs lab recommendation of <0.1%. and the lube did not look abnormal and the drive had just been rebuilt (do to excessive torque breaking a gear not water in the lube). It is easy enough to get some fishing line wrapped around the propshaft and cut a seal.

The Amsoil SVG appears to be the lube of choice to protect the gears in high hp Brave drives. Does anyone have first hand experience of running a drive with the Amsoil SVG that became contaminated with water?

Just trying to make an informed choice. Thanks for any input on the Amsoil SVG lube vs water.
03-17-2011, 01:49 PM
htrdlncn

Why not just use the Merc perf lube?
03-17-2011, 02:32 PM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by htrdlncn

Why not just use the Merc perf lube?

Post 2005 Bravo XR upper gears are experiencing a high incidence rate of early failure (premature gear surface failure not out right torque induced gear tooth fracture) with 600 and above hp. Many in that situation have found the Amsoil SVG Severe gear lube to improve the post 2005 XR gear life. At 625hp I am looking for a best option.
03-17-2011, 10:49 PM
Donskihp

I use the Amsoil lube, I prefer it for 1 because its clear instead of the Merc Green. Contamination is more obvious.
03-17-2011, 11:32 PM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donskihp

I use the Amsoil lube, I prefer it for 1 because its clear instead of the Merc Green. Contamination is more obvious.

Which Amsoil lube do you use that you are referring to?
03-18-2011, 10:34 PM
Donskihp

AGMQT Amsoil Gear Lube Synthetic Marine gear Lube
03-20-2011, 11:08 AM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donskihp

AGMQT Amsoil Gear Lube Synthetic Marine gear Lube

What hp? Lube change hours? What do you see on the drive magnets when you change the lube? Thanks.
03-20-2011, 06:35 PM
Donskihp

I'm running a Whippled 496 HO with CMI Sport Tubes,aproximately 700 hp. My outdrive is still the origional Brovo 1 X which I plan on replacing real soon with a Teague Platinum upper. I change my drive lube every 20 hours, and look real close for contamination. So far all I see has been is a real fine sparkley material. I drain my lube buy the drain plugs so I don't see whats on the magnets.
03-21-2011, 09:33 AM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donskihp

I'm running a Whippled 496 HO with CMI Sport Tubes,aproximately 700 hp. My outdrive is still the origional Brovo 1 X which I plan on replacing real soon with a Teague Platinum upper. I change my drive lube every 20 hours, and look real close for contamination. So far all I see has been is a real fine sparkley material. I drain my lube buy the drain plugs so I don't see whats on the magnets.

The magnets are the cylindrical rod that protrudes from the end of the lower drain plug and upper vent plug if you want to check them.

How many hours on the drive.
03-21-2011, 10:50 PM
Donskihp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rage

The magnets are the cylindrical rod that protrudes from the end of the lower drain plug and upper vent plug if you want to check them.

How many hours on the drive.

125.5 hours on drive
03-25-2011, 01:09 AM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donskihp

125.5 hours on drive

Is your drive a Bravo 1 /X1 or a Bravo XR?
03-25-2011, 06:31 PM
07DominatorSS

Rage,
I know you're concerned with water pollution and that maybe the AGM isn't as strong as the Severe Gear. I spoke with my driveline person at AMSOIL Inc today, and I agree with him. Test your OEM products against that AGM Marine Gear lube. I'm sure you can't find any tests on any of those OEM products because they typically don't want you to know how poor they really are. My $.02, that AMSOIL AGM Marine, is going to be one of the strongest products you can find. Run it. If you want to, take an analysis of any product out there, and get the results yourself. Compare them. You'll be able to see how strong the additive package is in any of the oils you send in. The AGM, as I stated to you before, has an emulsifying agent built into it. The Severe Gear does not.
03-25-2011, 07:33 PM
jeffswav

Quote:

Originally Posted by 07DominatorSS

Rage,
I know you're concerned with water pollution and that maybe the AGM isn't as strong as the Severe Gear. I spoke with my driveline person at AMSOIL Inc today, and I agree with him. Test your OEM products against that AGM Marine Gear lube. I'm sure you can't find any tests on any of those OEM products because they typically don't want you to know how poor they really are. My $.02, that AMSOIL AGM Marine, is going to be one of the strongest products you can find. Run it. If you want to, take an analysis of any product out there, and get the results yourself. Compare them. You'll be able to see how strong the additive package is in any of the oils you send in. The AGM, as I stated to you before, has an emulsifying agent built into it. The Severe Gear does not.

I agree, we have posted before about the same topics. I and others have contacted Amsoil and requested a Severe Gear Marine formula but it seems to fall on deaf ears. I have been using the Amsoil marine lube for about 6 seasons. If the reservoir starts to get a little dark I change it mid season. How hard would it be to just put the marine additive in the severe gear and print some lables. This is not a new concept, I have been asking for this for years.
Just for the record Teage promotes and uses Amsoil and they recomend the Severe Gear.
03-25-2011, 10:53 PM
Donskihp

I'm still running the origional Brovo 1 X
03-26-2011, 10:36 AM
07DominatorSS

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffswav

I agree, we have posted before about the same topics. I and others have contacted Amsoil and requested a Severe Gear Marine formula but it seems to fall on deaf ears. I have been using the Amsoil marine lube for about 6 seasons. If the reservoir starts to get a little dark I change it mid season. How hard would it be to just put the marine additive in the severe gear and print some lables. This is not a new concept, I have been asking for this for years.
Just for the record Teage promotes and uses Amsoil and they recomend the Severe Gear.

And just for that record, Teague uses the AMSOIL MCF 10w-40 Motorcycle oil in his outdrives, and has for the last 4 seasons I believe. Oh yeah, and after speaking to my person at AMSOIL INC., Marine Severe Gear hasn't fallen on deaf ears......
03-26-2011, 10:43 PM
Tarheel

Had a Upper gear throw off a tooth at the end of 2009. The BRAVO XR drive was 5 years old. Was using the AGMQT. The last two hours of run time, we ran the boat hard to run the gas out of before winterizing. That drive worked and shifted properly all the way to the dock. When I drained the gear lube out, got allot of metal in the oil. Am satisfied that without the AMSOIL, we wouldn't have made it back the dock, and the gear case wouldn't have been intact.

The gear tooth was thrown into the upper thrust bearing and cap and then it pumped metal throughout the drive. Got away with replacing the top cap, one gear set and the bearings and seals.

The other drive has AMSOIL AGMQT in it and have had no problems after five years/188 hours.

So while i've had no water intrusion, the AMSOIL Gear Oil is pretty good. Fairly comparable in price to the MERC Hi Perf Gear Lube too!
03-27-2011, 10:52 AM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by 07DominatorSS

Rage,
I know you're concerned with water pollution and that maybe the AGM isn't as strong as the Severe Gear. I spoke with my driveline person at AMSOIL Inc today, and I agree with him. Test your OEM products against that AGM Marine Gear lube. I'm sure you can't find any tests on any of those OEM products because they typically don't want you to know how poor they really are. My $.02, that AMSOIL AGM Marine, is going to be one of the strongest products you can find. Run it. If you want to, take an analysis of any product out there, and get the results yourself. Compare them. You'll be able to see how strong the additive package is in any of the oils you send in. The AGM, as I stated to you before, has an emulsifying agent built into it. The Severe Gear does not.

There is in fact an INDEPENDANT (ie not conducted by / or for someone that would have something to gain from the results) test of gear lubes with and without 10% water addition using the same ASTM test procedures that Amsoil has used / reported in the past. (ie American Society of Testing Materials ASTM D-4172 four ball wear test at 40kg and 160kg test load and the Falex Pin and V-Block test (ASTM D-3233B). Unfortunately the Amsoil SVG was not included but the the Amsoil AGM was. Obviously there are a lot of other pertinate tests that could have been run foaming being one that quickly comes to mind. Based on results comments in the acticle it appears that the Blue bar graphs are the Merc High Performance, the red and yellow are the Evenruide lubes.

http://bwbmag.com/output.cfm?id=1891729&sectionid=308

Maybe this explains why in the Amsoil automotive gear lube and motor oil white paper test reports the Amsoil product and the compentitive products tested are identified in scrupulous detail with one exception...the AGM Marine lube test results reported on the Amsoil web site ID the other lubes as "A" and "B".
03-27-2011, 12:15 PM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donskihp

I'm still running the origional Brovo 1 X

The spiral cut X1 upper gears are hard & brittle and get very good wear life because of that. It is exceeding the torque design limit that one has to be careful of. X1 is rated up to the 425hp engine. My X1 gears were fine to 300 hours (90 hr @ 425hp, 110 hours @ 560 hp, 100hr @ 625hp) by only using 50% throttle during planing, avoiding airborne action, etc. I finally screwed up by testing a five blade prop and sheared the upper drive gear teeth. I simply exceeded the torque limit of the X1 gear. The gear wear other wise was still minimal. I had been using the Redline Shock Proof Hvy gear lube. XR straight cut upper gears conversely are soft but tough to take higher torque w/o shearing off. They tend to wear a lot faster than the X1 gears and wear through the case hardening after which they will chunk out metal and fail. The metal chunks is what you look for on the drive magnets signaling time to rebuild the drive. The XR gears need the EP gear oils even more than the X1 gears in my opinion. The XR is rated up to 600hp engines. Some run XR's up to 1000hp+ (very short gear life). To make things worse the quality (wear life) of the XR gears took a plunge in ~2005 and later. Some (not all) drive/engines that used to get 300 hours on the XR gears started chunking at 10 hours and up. Cause is not clear. Thinking ranges from poor metalurgy, increase in gear teeth dimensional variation, deteriation in net forged surface finish of gear teeth which overloads the case hardening of the teeth, other. I rebuilt my broken drive with XR gears before I learned this. I wish now I had rebuilt with X1 gears....next time. In the mean time I want the best EP gear lube to keep my XR gears alive. I am sure the Amsoil AGM is a fine general purpose marine gear lube but falls short for my requirements.
03-27-2011, 12:31 PM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by 07DominatorSS

Oh yeah, and after speaking to my person at AMSOIL INC., Marine Severe Gear hasn't fallen on deaf ears......

Do you mean to say that Amsoil has told you that they have an active high priority/funded project dedicated to developing and producing a SVG type Severe Duty EP gear lube for marine I/O drives? If yes when is the Amsoil corporate target release date for this product?
03-27-2011, 12:43 PM
Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by 07DominatorSS

And just for that record, Teague uses the AMSOIL MCF 10w-40 Motorcycle oil in his outdrives, and has for the last 4 seasons I believe.

Are you saying that Amsoil recommends the use of AMSOIL MCF 10w-40 Motorcycle oil in general purpose marine outdrives?
03-27-2011, 02:52 PM
Donskihp

As with most companys they have a legal dept. which keeps them from saying a lot of things. As an example Bob Teague told me one time that there were a lot of thanks he would recomend that he can't post in Teague on Tec in powerboat mag.
03-27-2011, 04:20 PM
07DominatorSS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rage

Do you mean to say that Amsoil has told you that they have an active high priority/funded project dedicated to developing and producing a SVG type Severe Duty EP gear lube for marine I/O drives? If yes when is the Amsoil corporate target release date for this product?

All I can tell you is, it hasn't fallen on deaf ears.

Now does AMSOIL recommend MCF in outdrives, not necessarily. See AMSOIL will recommend the best product for the application, doesn't mean that there aren't a few others that will do the job also.

Also, if you're looking for simply the best protection, use the Severe Gear, either the SVG 75w-90 or the SVT 75w-110. For the HP you're putting to that XR, that, IMO, is the best option.