Boats.com story on "Whatever Happened to Offshore Powerboat Racing?"

[BlackJack58]

Just read Matt Trulio's story on Boats.com - I'm sure everyone will have their own take on this...


"The Big Picture: Whatever Happened to Offshore Powerboat Racing?
On the domestic and international scenes, offshore powerboat racing is on life support. And the prognosis isn't good-as always."

The rest is here:
http://features.boats.com/boat-content/2009/07/the-big-picture-whatever-happened-to-offshore-powerboat-racing/

[phragle]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling....
:willy_nilly: :willy_nilly: :willy_nilly: :willy_nilly: :willy_nilly: :willy_nilly: :willy_nilly:

[TCEd]

Not a bad assesment.
ed

[LaughingCat]

He makes a good point. Nascar has identical cars racing right in front of the crowds. The security fence is critical. Offshore boats cannot get close enough to the mainstream crowds.

[shifter]

Sad but true.

Nicely written.

pat W

[jethead]

Ok I'm real new around here but I think that could have been a much better article. Some of the stuff I've read on this website could have made that article much more interesting....IMO.

Brent

[T2x]

Good Job Matt:

The racers are their own worst enemy. Matt makes good points and, simply put, the racers are the worst source for racing rules. They can't seem to see over their own bows., much less acknowlege that the rules they continually work on...have created a mish mosh of boring and confusing bedlam.

Blind enthusiasm....... of and by itself....elected Obama.

T2x

[Matt Trulio]

Phragle ... I never said the "sky was falling." My point was: It is what it is. Always has been. Always will be. History is on my side in this assertion. I hope someday I am proven wrong. Sadly, I don't think I will be.

TCed, Laughing Cat, Shifter, T2X (hello, Rich!) ... thank you.

Jethead ... knock yourself out. Write away.

[Ratickle]

Phragle ... I never said the "sky was falling." My point was: It is what it is. Always has been. Always will be. History is on my side in this assertion. I hope someday I am proven wrong. Sadly, I don't think I will be.

TCed, Laughing Cat, Shifter, T2X (hello, Rich!) ... thank you.

Jethead ... knock yourself out. Write away.

Hey Matt, welcome........

As you know I ran my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd races the last two weekends, did an interview with Jason......

We gotta chat..:sifone:



Will you be in Michigan City?

[Matt Trulio]

Congratulations, Ratickle. That's very cool. How did you do?

Heard good things about St. Clair. From everything I've been told, it's one of the strongest venues outside of Key West.

I won't be in Michigan City.

[T2x]

Congratulations, Ratickle. That's very cool. How did you do?

Heard good things about St. Clair. From everything I've been told, it's one of the strongest venues outside of Key West.

I won't be in Michigan City.

St. Clair is a wonderful venue and the enthusiastic fans are a treasure. These people can't get enough of the race weekend and the site is one of the best in the sport.......it would probably make a great Champ boat course....except for the Great Lakes Ore Boats running through here and there. If boat racing is ever to be reborn, it will be due to fans and efforts like that......

T2x

[cigdaze]

Welcome Matt Trulio. It's a pleasure to have you aboard. Great article.

[Ms PatriYacht]

Having just attended the St. Clair race for about the 6th year, as well as about three times at Key West, New York, Metro Beach in MI and a few other venues, here are my observations.

While St Clair is one of the best venues it is till hard to see much of the race, this year they seemed to move the course even further from the shore line. I had binoculars and watched from the St Clair Inn, sadly the don't have speakers set up there so you can't hear the announcer so your really don't know what is going on. Even though I know many of the boats and have seen them up close, when they were racing there were times because of speed and distance that I could not figure out who all the boats were, it was just to hard to read the names and numbers and that was even with binoculars. Also we thought we had a good handle of who was in what class, yet it still was confusing, we often thought a boat was in last place and then would find out they were first in their class. Makes it hard if you are the type that like to cheer a boat on. I think most people find it confusing to watch a race where you have multiple races being run at the same time, this not something you get in boat racing. I also don't like races where they tell you how fast you can go and if you go faster by one mile for one second you get disqualified, can't there be some other fair way then setting speed limits, I thought a race was who ran the fastest, not who gets in a better turn position or doesn't break. If I did not have an interest in offshore boats as a hobby, attend poker runs, meet racers and friends through these web sites I really can not imagine just attending the race because I like watching the boats go around the course. If you ask me if I like going to the boat races I would say yes but it is because of the whole package, the party atmosphere, meeting up with friends in the dry pits, meeting people face to face that you know from the web sites, being outside on a sunny day and enjoying a beverage while watching the race.

[OldSchool]

I agree with Matt. It is what it is! Nice article and thanks for posting!!:):seeya:

[TCEd]

Having just attended the St. Clair race for about the 6th year, as well as about three times at Key West, New York, Metro Beach in MI and a few other venues, here are my observations.

While St Clair is one of the best venues it is till hard to see much of the race, this year they seemed to move the course even further from the shore line. I had binoculars and watched from the St Clair Inn, sadly the don't have speakers set up there so you can't hear the announcer so your really don't know what is going on. Even though I know many of the boats and have seen them up close, when they were racing there were times because of speed and distance that I could not figure out who all the boats were, it was just to hard to read the names and numbers and that was even with binoculars. Also we thought we had a good handle of who was in what class, yet it still was confusing, we often thought a boat was in last place and then would find out they were first in their class. Makes it hard if you are the type that like to cheer a boat on. I think most people find it confusing to watch a race where you have multiple races being run at the same time, this not something you get in boat racing. I also don't like races where they tell you how fast you can go and if you go faster by one mile for one second you get disqualified, can't there be some other fair way then setting speed limits, I thought a race was who ran the fastest, not who gets in a better turn position or doesn't break. If I did not have an interest in offshore boats as a hobby, attend poker runs, meet racers and friends through these web sites I really can not imagine just attending the race because I like watching the boats go around the course. If you ask me if I like going to the boat races I would say yes but it is because of the whole package, the party atmosphere, meeting up with friends in the dry pits, meeting people face to face that you know from the web sites, being outside on a sunny day and enjoying a beverage while watching the race.

This is why it will never work as a major spectator sport.
ed

[GENERAL LEE]

Good Job Matt:

The racers are their own worst enemy. Matt makes good points and, simply put, the racers are the worst source for racing rules. They can't seem to see over their own bows., much less acknowlege that the rules they continually work on...have created a mish mosh of boring and confusing bedlam.

Blind enthusiasm....... of and by itself....elected Obama.

T2x

I'm sure this direct question has been asked, but shouldn't the people in charge of the various racing leagues put THEIR foot down, and hash out the rules? Have any of them taken a tougher stance toward the racers, with a general attitude of "these are the rules, and that's the way it is"?

The racers ultimately would have to either follow the rules, find some other league with even less exposure, or just not race period. I know it sounds harsh, but that's the way other sports handle the rules, and the "players" do get used to them after a bit.

I can't say that I'd care what the rules are if I were to race, because they "are what they are", and I'd want to race! Everyone has to follow them, so why get SO upset over the way it is, IF you really just enjoy racing for what IT is?

IIIII don't know.....:willy_nilly:

[Dude! Sweet!]

Man, irony of ironies that the boat pictured in the is the Amsoil Skater, which didn't show up for the POPRA Rum Run (right in Teague's own back yard)...

[Ratickle]

I'd love to debate this one if everyone can do it constructively vs just negative..........

[Dude! Sweet!]

I'd love to debate this one if everyone can do it constructively vs just negative..........

Paul, I have opinions about this, but don't feel like I have the requisite "street cred" to express my opinions on the subject at this point. I am sincerely passionate about boat racing, but I don't feel like that's sufficient background to tell people how I think things "should be done"... I will state a fact, like the fact that the turn out for the Rum Run was poor and that a certain big name local team didn't show up. But, beyond that I'd rather sit and listen to guys like Rich and Pat who've been there and done that...

[Matt Trulio]

To General Lee's point:

In offshore racing sanctioning bodies, you don't have the equivalent of the France family, which rules NASCAR in a fairly autocratic, "my way or the highway" fashion. Sponsors, the real fuel for NASCAR teams, choose "my way" over "the highway" because NASCAR fans have proven to be loyal buyers of NASCAR sponsors' products. So even if a sponsor doesn't like a rule, he's less likely to walk away because it hits him in his own wallet. Pretty simple stuff.

Offshore racing has not proven that it can sell products, much less itself, and it probably can't for any number of reasons. So even if offshore racing had a France-style autocracy, what few sponsors there are would simply take their toys and go home when dissatisfied with a new rule.

However, we don't even get that far. The Offshore Super Series is a team owner-controlled group. So the owners must reach consensus for rules to be set. I am not saying that's inherently bad or unworkable, but it is tricky. Because racers are competitive by definition, and if I, as a racer, see a rule on the table that will help my chances, I'll be all for it. And if the new rule will hurt my chances, I'll oppose it.

It's not right or wrong. It's human nature.

To some degree, we are all self-serving. As someone much smarter than I am once told me: Without special interest, there is no interest.

Onto SBI. Love it, hate it, have no strong feelings about it, SBI has survived because John Carbonell runs it ... anyone? anyone? Bueller? ... as a business. Decisions are made on what's best for SBI, and while that might not always please racers or fans ... it's not their business. It doesn't put food on their tables. SBI is John Carbonell's livelihood.

Now, you might say the racers pay the bills with their entry fees, and indeed they do, and that they should have a voice. In fact, my friends, they have the loudest voice possible. Racing is a product. They can choose not to buy it. Same goes for the fans. They can choose not to attend. There are plenty of other weekend diversions.

It is what it is.

[Ratickle]

Paul, I have opinions about this, but don't feel like I have the requisite "street cred" to express my opinions on the subject at this point. I am sincerely passionate about boat racing, but I don't feel like that's sufficient background to tell people how I think things "should be done"... I will state a fact, like the fact that the turn out for the Rum Run was poor and that a certain big name local team didn't show up. But, beyond that I'd rather sit and listen to guys like Rich and Pat who've been there and done that...

Promoting a sport is promoting a sport. Doesn't matter what worked, what is working, what may work, etc.

What matters is everyone approaches it with an open mind, uses experience from all, and then make a plan to follow that is a living plan so it can be changed within a pre-set change-plan rules.

Really not that big of a deal, communicating all input into a constructive discussion seems to be the hardest part.

I bet I could get everyone on here to agree on several things that currently aren't working. And on several things that currently are. ie, Marathon, didn't work - St Clair, did. (Probably will get chewed on that generalization).

Like I said, discussing without mayhem seems to be the problem.

[Ted]

You are correct about the racers having a voice. And they are exercising it as evidenced by SBI's boat counts. And OPA's as a matter of fact.

[Ted]

Oh, and BTW, welcome Matt, glad to see you here. :D

[Ms PatriYacht]

The point of the article has very little to do about the fact that there have been 4 race organizations and fighting and dissension among their members. Unless you are offshore forum regulars or a racer you probably know very little if any about the drama that has taken place. Regardless if there was one happy all get along race group or 4 fragmented fighting groups there still would not be a fan base big enough to put offshore racing into the mainstream. A single race group with more boats would make it better for the fans the sport has now, but for the average person it will still be hard to see, follow, and understand. That's the reason Matt states the following in his article

I completely get why the sport has never flown—and will never fly

[Ratickle]

The point of the article has very little to do about the fact that there have been 4 race organizations and fighting and dissension among their members. Unless you are offshore forum regulars or a racer you probably know very little if any about the drama that has taken place. Regardless if there was one happy all get along race group or 4 fragmented fighting groups there still would not be a fan base big enough to put offshore racing into the mainstream. A single race group with more boats would make it better for the fans the sport has now, but for the average person it will still be hard to see, follow, and understand. That's the reason Matt states the following in his article

I completely get why the sport has never flown—and will never fly

The problem with Matts final determination, there was a time when a race attracted thousands. This weekend, you should have tried to walk around the viewing areas during a race. I have no idea what the number of people watching the race were, but I'd guess over 30,000. And, there were 49 boats there. That's an increase from last year, not a decrease in these tough times.

The main issue to me, every time the sport gets close to "flying". Someone with a determination to make money off it steps in and ruins the growth. The same thing happens in other sports, ie Indy/Formula, IHRA/NHRA, AFL/NFL, World Football League/NFL, NBA/ABA, and on and on......

The difference, it is always close to the bigtime, not quite there yet, when it happens. Sometime review the Unlimiteds and their issues. And then see how they controlled them.....

Look at drag boats, UMI, Class 1, Austrailian Sprint Boats, West Coast River runners, etc.

Like I said, I'll debate it, just needs to be a positive discussion, not a slamming of everything.

[Ratickle]

Having just attended the St. Clair race for about the 6th year, as well as about three times at Key West, New York, Metro Beach in MI and a few other venues, here are my observations.

While St Clair is one of the best venues it is till hard to see much of the race, this year they seemed to move the course even further from the shore line.

Next year bring it closer. How close can it be and be safe for all????

I had binoculars and watched from the St Clair Inn, sadly the don't have speakers set up there so you can't hear the announcer so your really don't know what is going on.

Get speakers up and down the entire viewing area.

Even though I know many of the boats and have seen them up close, when they were racing there were times because of speed and distance that I could not figure out who all the boats were, it was just to hard to read the names and numbers and that was even with binoculars. Also we thought we had a good handle of who was in what class, yet it still was confusing, we often thought a boat was in last place and then would find out they were first in their class. Makes it hard if you are the type that like to cheer a boat on.

Once again, get it closer with anouncer speakers.

I think most people find it confusing to watch a race where you have multiple races being run at the same time, this not something you get in boat racing.

Until the classes get bigger (Old F1 and F2 had too many boats), by having less maybe, I got nothing...


I also don't like races where they tell you how fast you can go and if you go faster by one mile for one second you get disqualified, can't there be some other fair way then setting speed limits, I thought a race was who ran the fastest, not who gets in a better turn position or doesn't break.

The GPS classes are the way to bring in beginners, or people who only run a few races a year with their pleasure/poker run boats in. There is no other way to equalize boats that has worked. So, once again, I got nothing ....


If I did not have an interest in offshore boats as a hobby, attend poker runs, meet racers and friends through these web sites I really can not imagine just attending the race because I like watching the boats go around the course. If you ask me if I like going to the boat races I would say yes but it is because of the whole package, the party atmosphere, meeting up with friends in the dry pits, meeting people face to face that you know from the web sites, being outside on a sunny day and enjoying a beverage while watching the race.

That's a lot of what it is supposed to be. An event, not just a race

Here's part of the answer to the solution, fix it. Most not that hard.

[Ratickle]

The Offshore Super Series is a team owner-controlled group. So the owners must reach consensus for rules to be set. I am not saying that's inherently bad or unworkable, but it is tricky. Because racers are competitive by definition, and if I, as a racer, see a rule on the table that will help my chances, I'll be all for it. And if the new rule will hurt my chances, I'll oppose it.

Onto SBI. Love it, hate it, have no strong feelings about it, SBI has survived because John Carbonell runs it ... anyone? anyone? Bueller? ... as a business. Decisions are made on what's best for SBI, and while that might not always please racers or fans ... it's not their business. It doesn't put food on their tables. SBI is John Carbonell's livelihood.


You don't address OPA, which has the largest boat counts, or the overseas classes which have a huge following and very large purses.

I'll take it a step farther. John is the problem in my opinion. Due to his style of only having one thing in mind, what's best for John, not what's even best for SBI and for sure not what's best for Offshore Racing, the entire offshore group has been shattered over and over. If he truly ran it as what was best for SBI, I believe it would be in a much stronger position.

But, I said I wouldn't get into this until after this weekend.

I ran an almost exclusive OPA race a week ago, a combined OSS/OPA race this past weekend, and will be at the SBI race this weekend (not racing though). Report to follow.

[GENERAL LEE]

To General Lee's point:

Thanks Matt. :coolgleamA:

I just seems like it would be so easy to just have "real" 525, 700, 1075, & unlimited classes? I "think" much of the reason Nascar works, is because they are all running the same essential setup. Obviously this puts more emphasis on the driver, but the team gets more attention as well, making the whole group more marketable. Since the more people or "objects" you can put a logo on, the more sponsor money, have any of the racing groups REALLY tried hiring a marketing firm to present ways to increase interest?

[OldSchool]

To General Lee's point:

In offshore racing sanctioning bodies, you don't have the equivalent of the France family, which rules NASCAR in a fairly autocratic, "my way or the highway" fashion. Sponsors, the real fuel for NASCAR teams, choose "my way" over "the highway" because NASCAR fans have proven to be loyal buyers of NASCAR sponsors' products. So even if a sponsor doesn't like a rule, he's less likely to walk away because it hits him in his own wallet. Pretty simple stuff.

Offshore racing has not proven that it can sell products, much less itself, and it probably can't for any number of reasons. So even if offshore racing had a France-style autocracy, what few sponsors there are would simply take their toys and go home when dissatisfied with a new rule.

However, we don't even get that far. The Offshore Super Series is a team owner-controlled group. So the owners must reach consensus for rules to be set. I am not saying that's inherently bad or unworkable, but it is tricky. Because racers are competitive by definition, and if I, as a racer, see a rule on the table that will help my chances, I'll be all for it. And if the new rule will hurt my chances, I'll oppose it.

It's not right or wrong. It's human nature.

To some degree, we are all self-serving. As someone much smarter than I am once told me: Without special interest, there is no interest.

Onto SBI. Love it, hate it, have no strong feelings about it, SBI has survived because John Carbonell runs it ... anyone? anyone? Bueller? ... as a business. Decisions are made on what's best for SBI, and while that might not always please racers or fans ... it's not their business. It doesn't put food on their tables. SBI is John Carbonell's livelihood.

Now, you might say the racers pay the bills with their entry fees, and indeed they do, and that they should have a voice. In fact, my friends, they have the loudest voice possible. Racing is a product. They can choose not to buy it. Same goes for the fans. They can choose not to attend. There are plenty of other weekend diversions.

It is what it is.

That's got to be one of the best, level-headed responses that I've ever read on an online forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...and that concept works great......as long as personal attacks and keyboard tempers don't flare up! :) Too many threads on the forums getoff track because people would rather call someone an azzhole instead of debating a subject. I'm not talking about this thread as it's been quite civil!

.....and thanks for having the courage to post Matt!!:sifone:

Carry on :)

[OldSchool]

Thanks Matt. :coolgleamA:

I just seems like it would be so easy to just have "real" 525, 700, 1075, & unlimited classes? I "think" much of the reason Nascar works, is because they are all running the same essential setup. Obviously this puts more emphasis on the driver, but the team gets more attention as well, making the whole group more marketable. Since the more people or "objects" you can put a logo on, the more sponsor money, have any of the racing groups REALLY tried hiring a marketing firm to present ways to increase interest?

I think that the concept that you are talking about would give the sport the best chance to thrive. Unfortunately, It's highly unlikely that it will ever happen :(

[catastrophe]

I think that the concept that you are talking about would give the sport the best chance to thrive. Unfortunately, It's highly unlikely that it will ever happen :(

You are right. It wont. Until a new autocrat with deep pockets and modern ideas shows up. The series has to be OWNED by someone, not by racers or anyone that doesnt have their own money invested in it.

[Ratickle]

I think that the concept that you are talking about would give the sport the best chance to thrive. Unfortunately, It's highly unlikely that it will ever happen :(

I also think it is the correct base concept to start with. And that it is extremely unlikely it will ever happen.

Many do not really want to race. They want to put on a demonstration and get a flag. That is fine. Just call it what it is. A race always has more than one competitor. I don't care if it's a foot race, a horse race, a car race, or a ski race.

I can give example after example of things that worked. I can also give the reasons they went away. So, just for discussion and thought. (None of the reasons they went away, think about these first)

Supercat - at least a dozen in Key West in 03 ?
F1 - 20 plus in the late 90's ?
F2 - 30 plus in the late 90's ?
Outboard Cat - Overseas
Class 1 - Overseas
The old Open Class - Rich?

Currently, SVL and outboard cat has the group of racers closest.

ANd the Production/Speed Evened classes. A little outside the intent currently, but still attracting racers, (like me).

And many more.

Start with what worked
Eliminate what did them in
And set sights on the future.

But don't throw up your hands and say it has never worked and never will.

There is a reason the X games get higher ratings than a soccer game here. What is it????? There are certainly more soccer players than skiers.

[ericc]

Like Matt, I am a professional fan of offshore racing, having covered the sport seriously for 9 years at Powerboat. I also raced for about three years before similar spousal pressure and the birth of my son Blake made me decide to hang up the orange helmet. I admit that every time I see a race, part of me yearns to be out there. I tried to cover the sport with an optimistic approach and annually hoped that a coming season would be the year when everyone got together and made the sport as great as it could be. I think that the closest we got was when Gene Whipp was running APBA Offshore and, as much as some didn't like him, Michael Allweiss did a good job of bringing the sport closer to the fans. Matt's assessment is dead-on. It's primarily always been a serious hobby, not a professional sport, but one we can't seem to get enough of.

[Ratickle]

You are right. It wont. Until a new autocrat with deep pockets and modern ideas shows up. The series has to be OWNED by someone, not by racers or anyone that doesnt have their own money invested in it.

Sorry Alec, have to disagree with you there.

The racers I talk to who are currently sitting on the sidelines are doing so for two main reasons. ( SVL is working because they don't allow those things)

1. Rules get changed late in the year, before the season starts, making it too late to do anything to be competitive.

The main suggestion I receive, make it so no rules get changed after Feb 1st, period.

2. Rules get changed making their equipment obsolete.

The main suggestion I receive, make it so 70% minimum of the racers/teams who raced the previous season have to agree to that rules change, otherwise no go.


And many of the racers do have their own money invested in it. Many......

Look at the SVL teams and talk to them. They do everything possible to help each other compete.

[OldSchool]

Like Matt, I am a professional fan of offshore racing, having covered the sport seriously for 9 years at Powerboat. I also raced for about three years before similar spousal pressure and the birth of my son Blake made me decide to hang up the orange helmet. I admit that every time I see a race, part of me yearns to be out there. I tried to cover the sport with an optimistic approach and annually hoped that a coming season would be the year when everyone got together and made the sport as great as it could be. I think that the closest we got was when Gene Whipp was running APBA Offshore and, as much as some didn't like him, Michael Allweiss did a good job of bringing the sport closer to the fans. Matt's assessment is dead-on. It's primarily always been a serious hobby, not a professional sport, but one we can't seem to get enough of.

Ha! It's kind of like what it's like for us die-hard lifelong Redskins fans since little Danny Snyder bought the team. Every year, right about now, everyone is talking about how this will be the year that the 'Skins will return to glory....

... By November, we all realize (again) that another year has gone by that Lil Danny failed at his attempt of buying the best team in football. You have to build it!!!!

[Ratickle]

You have to build it!!!!

Exactly..........:26: :26: :26:

[Ted]

Like Matt, I am a professional fan of offshore racing, having covered the sport seriously for 9 years at Powerboat. I also raced for about three years before similar spousal pressure and the birth of my son Blake made me decide to hang up the orange helmet. I admit that every time I see a race, part of me yearns to be out there. I tried to cover the sport with an optimistic approach and annually hoped that a coming season would be the year when everyone got together and made the sport as great as it could be. I think that the closest we got was when Gene Whipp was running APBA Offshore and, as much as some didn't like him, Michael Allweiss did a good job of bringing the sport closer to the fans. Matt's assessment is dead-on. It's primarily always been a serious hobby, not a professional sport, but one we can't seem to get enough of.

Dead on Eric, and to add to that, Mike A. posted in another thread here (Great Unification) that in order for it ever to truly prosper, the organization should OWN the boats of the premier class. This of course would keep the best funded teams from breaking off and forming their own group ala OPT, OSS, and OPS. Now since that is unlikely to happen I believe a better scenario is a person or persons that can emulate a Gene Whipp or Ed Smith to the racers (respect, understanding, empathy) and also be able to have a business model closer to Mike A. or John C. (although I don't think John C. has had a broad reaching, growth oriented model in place) . Now the question is can one person do that? It would be a monumental task to balance the needs and desires of the participants and the business. It could be done, but so far the stars have not aligned, so here we are.

[Ratickle]

I can't get this to post correctly. But, this is my opinion of problem number 1. If you see any errors, let me know and I'll change/correct them. It's tough to read all the rule books. And there are still a couple of blanks.


Class Org. (s) Hull Size Hull Style Engine Size Engine Qty. Max Speed

1 Extreme/Turbine OPA Any Any Any Any na
2 Unlimited Offshore OSS 40' to 50' Any Turbine Any na
3 Turbine SBI 38' to 50' Cat Turbine Twin na
4 Superboat Unlimited/Cat Ext. SBI/OSS 40' to 50' Cat Any Any na
5 Superboat V Unlimited Ext. SBI 40' to 50' V Any Any na
6 Superboat V Unlimited SBI 40' to 50' V Any Any na
7 Supercharged Cat OSS 37' 2" to 46' Cat Twin na
8 Cat OSS 38' to 40' Cat Twin na
9 Cat Light OSS/OPA 35' to 38' Cat 525's Twin na
10 Vee OSS 33' to 42' V Twin na
11 Super Vee OSS 36' to 43' V Twin na
12 Supercat 850 SBI & OPA 36' to 46' Cat 565 Twin na
13 Supercat 750 SBI & OPA 36' to 46' Cat 510 Twin na
14 Supercat SBI 36' to 40' Cat Twin na
15 Super Vee SBI/OPA 34' to 40' V 525's Twin na
16 Super V Limited/Vee Light SBI/OSS 26' to 32' V 525 Single na
17 Superboat Stock/Cat Outbd SBI/OSS 28' to 32' Cat Any Outbd Twin na
18 P1 SBI Any Any Any Any 117 mph
19 Class 100 OPA Any Any Any Any 115 mph
20 P2 SBI Any Any Any Any 105 mph
21 Pro Am 1 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 95 mph
22 Class 300/P3 OPA/SBI Any Any Any Any 95 mph
23 Pro Am 2 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 85 mph
24 P4 SBI Any Any Any Any 85 mph
25 Class 400 OPA Any V Any Any 85 mph
26 Pro Am 3 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 75 mph
27 Class 500 OPA 0' to 30' V Any Any 75 mph
28 P 5 SBI 0' to 30' Any Any Single 75 mph
29 Class 600 OPA 0' to 26' V Any Any 70 mph
30 Pro Am 4 OSS 24' to 30' Any Any Single In/ Twin Out 65 mph

[BlackJack58]

This has been a very good read and a smart, civil discourse on racing, so far. Thanks for all who have posted.

I've heard a lot of people say that racing needs to be "close to shore" so people can enjoy the races. And I think that will always make sense. But maybe, as some of the old-timers say, the sport also needs to go "back offshore" to some extent...

At first, it didn't make sense to me either - but (sacriledge aside) look at what the blow boaters do with events like the Volvo Ocean Race*, Vendee Globe and Sydney-Hobart races. You can't see those boats from shore, either. But they have point-to-point coverage with cameras on each boat, huge turnouts of fans at cities where they port, MILLIONS of people tracking the racers progress online via satellite mapping, online video and press releases every day on the status of the races. They get a good share of big money, high-end sponsors and lots of run. Companies feature their boat sponsorships in their regular advertising (Rolex, for example). And, of course, they are all controlled by a single, strong entity. Their basic formats are different, and during the current economic downturn, are struggling a little, like everyone else. But certainly there must be some lessons to be learned there.

It's also funny when you consider that sailboat racing is considered to be a "snob sport" (even this is admitted by sailboat racers) to which common people can't relate. Who here doesn't think offshore racing is louder, faster, more exciting, and a lot sexier? It certainly can be just as "upscale" (though SBI's "boat racing of the rich and famous" is a little too blatant a tag line for me--but hey, I'm just an old ad copywriter).

I guess my thought is, all of Matt's comments make perfect sense. But then I see that sail racing:

1) Is hard to follow and relatively far away from shore

2) Is esoteric and hard to watch

3) Is hard for the average guy or gal in the street to relate to, much less understand.

...yet in comparative terms, that sport seems to be doing better. Some will say it's apples-to-oranges, but I think there's enough in common to make it a worthwhile consideration. I hate to say it, but if we're always looking at NASCAR, maybe we're looking in the wrong place.

Just my .02 :sifone:

*Volvo Ocean Race Sponsor Data:

(from website) Key Facts
- Television coverage producing a cumulative audience of 2.0 billion viewers.
- Print media coverage of over 18,000 published articles in 11 territories, creating in excess of 686 million unique readers
- Over three and a half million unique visitors to the official website
- More than a billion listeners to radio race coverage
- 200% - 300% return on investment on media exposure alone for syndicates
- High socio-economic grouping with 37% of those aware of the race categorized as ABC1
- Awareness of competing teams increased by up to 30%
- Proven track record as a business to business and internal engagement tool

[Ratickle]

Look at the coverage of P1/Stock Outboard while you're reviewing things. Same type of scenario.

[Dunbar 104]

What org is really promoting racing? Is is more of just get a boat here and we will make you happy. I'm bored with it all. I want to race not show off. Yet we reward showing off. Alway talking about how great X-cat is in Europe. In the USA do the same with SVL. $50,000 prize money, and make the hatches bigger so some of the ego can get in. I really don't know what the SVl class could do more to get boats out. You can race a SVL on what most teams bar tabs are. So where is the problem?

[Ratickle]

What org is really promoting racing? Is is more of just get a boat here and we will make you happy. I'm bored with it all. I want to race not show off. Yet we reward showing off. Alway talking about how great X-cat is in Europe. In the USA do the same with SVL. $50,000 prize money, and make the hatches bigger so some of the ego can get in. I really don't know what the SVl class could do more to get boats out. You can race a SVL on what most teams bar tabs are. So where is the problem?

X Cat (Stock Outboard), and SVL are the only two classes growing other than the GPS classes. There were more boats in SVL in St Clair this past week than in any class in Key West last year.

[TCEd]

The problem with Matts final determination, there was a time when a race attracted thousands. This weekend, you should have tried to walk around the viewing areas during a race. I have no idea what the number of people watching the race were, but I'd guess over 30,000. And, there were 49 boats there. That's an increase from last year, not a decrease in these tough times.

The main issue to me, every time the sport gets close to "flying". Someone with a determination to make money off it steps in and ruins the growth. The same thing happens in other sports, ie Indy/Formula, IHRA/NHRA, AFL/NFL, World Football League/NFL, NBA/ABA, and on and on......

The difference, it is always close to the bigtime, not quite there yet, when it happens. Sometime review the Unlimiteds and their issues. And then see how they controlled them.....

Look at drag boats, UMI, Class 1, Austrailian Sprint Boats, West Coast River runners, etc.

Like I said, I'll debate it, just needs to be a positive discussion, not a slamming of everything.

How would the sport get 30,000 spectators to view a offshore race at $50 a seat ? I put that price out there since you're discussing/comparing other sports that draw paying fans regularly.
ed

[Ratickle]

How would the sport get 30,000 spectators to view a offshore race at $50 a seat ? I put that price out there since you're discussing/comparing other sports that draw paying fans regularly.
ed

Wouldn't ever happen in my estimation. There will also never be a $3,000,000 first prize purse on the line etc.

I'd love to know the paid gate in Key West though. Had to be a major chunk.....

The vendors in St Clair said there was more sales this year than last. We'll see if that holds true. There were also more boats racing in St Clair this year than last. More boats racing in St Clair this year than last year in Key West. More boats in two of the classes than in any single class in Key West last year, etc.

All I'm trying to say is we seem to be on another up cycle because it was slammed to the bottom again a few years ago and has been shrinking every since. Maybe only until now though, who knows.

There has always been three common denominators in any motorsport, and most other sports, that holds true (I think).

There are no more than three major classes.
Pro Stock, Funny Car, Top Fuel
Sprint Cup, Craftsman Series, Nationwide
etc.

There are supporting classes for an event and bringing new people into the sport.

When it works well, and makes the most headway, there is only one National (or World) organization that has final say.


I put up a list with 30 unique classes. If you look at the boats, it could be cut in half in a second, and almost all boats currently running would still fit. Could you imagine 30 classes at a NASCAR event on the track?

In drags it works, but the top three classes are the ones who get TV etc. And they aren't running at the same time.

By the way. In St Clair two things were obvious to my fan reviewer spys.

1. Cat Can Do was the most popular boat because it was the fastest and loudest. Got cheers every time around.
2. The short course race 1 was more popular than the long course that went out of sight in races 2 and 3.

I don't have the answer, but it is here among the groups involved.

[TCEd]

Raticle,
I admire your love for the sport. Class reduction and unification is a MUST.
There is a funny post in the racing section on how to identify the many different class boat in one race. They discuss using various colors to identify the boats but run out of colors !!!!!!
Can't see the trees because of the forest.
ed

[Ratickle]

Raticle,
I admire your love for the sport. Class reduction and unification is a MUST.
There is a funny post in the racing section on how to identify the many different class boat in one race. They discuss using various colors to identify the boats but run out of colors !!!!!!
Can't see the trees because of the forest.
ed

Mikey started that because of the St Clair feedback. At least people are still talking. I watch and listen to SVL. They seem to have it going on.......

And they all help make the other boats competitive, not start a new class if they lose.

The directors of the orgs should gather them all up, put them in a room, and just listen and take notes.....

Super Vee is also looking good from that standpoint, and Outboard Cat.

And if I missed some others, let me know.

[Ms PatriYacht]

How would the sport get 30,000 spectators to view a offshore race at $50 a seat ? I put that price out there since you're discussing/comparing other sports that draw paying fans regularly.
ed

Finally someone's back to the topic of the article. offshore boat racing because it has to be held on a large body of water where much of the shore line cannot be roped off will never yield high $$$ from ticket sales. So the owner of the race organization or the promoter has a lot of leg work to do even just to break even. They have to generate a lot of money from sponsors, create other activities around the race that will generate both revenue and attract a crowd, and sometimes they even have to charge the race teams. Then you must PRAY for good weather, since people have not bought tickets if the weather sucks and you have a lot of rain most of the crowd will stay home. So the vendors and sponsors loose out big time and most likely don't show up the next year. This will NEVER change, and it has nothing to do with the racers, the classes, or if the organization is for profit or for pleasure.

[Sean H]

X Cat (Stock Outboard), and SVL are the only two classes growing other than the GPS classes. There were more boats in SVL in St Clair this past week than in any class in Key West last year.


Let's not confuse SVL's and bat boats, I am sure it was fun and exciting to be out there, but if the SCL guys ran with the SC, it doesn't make the SC field bigger. While playing with the numbers may make us all feel better, the truth is there was an average of 3 offshore boats per class in St Clair (and that goes for all race sites/orgs, St Clair was just the most recent). That pretty much means that only a noted few when home without some sort of trophy or flag. That is the real reason that offshore racing is in the state it is.

Until the class count gets reduced, we will continue to have these issues. Imagine 15 classes in 3 races with 45 boats, and now imagine 6 classes in 3 races with 45 boats. Which one would you rather watch?

I used to care which classes ran, but anymore, I don't even care what classes still exist, it just has to be reduced.

Ironically, I think every org has the rule in their book that there has to be 5 boats to have a class. Imagine if they actually enforced that.

[Ratickle]

Let's not confuse SVL's and bat boats, I am sure it was fun and exciting to be out there, but if the SCL guys ran with the SC, it doesn't make the SC field bigger. While playing with the numbers may make us all feel better, the truth is there was an average of 3 offshore boats per class in St Clair (and that goes for all race sites/orgs, St Clair was just the most recent). That pretty much means that only a noted few when home without some sort of trophy or flag. That is the real reason that offshore racing is in the state it is.

Until the class count gets reduced, we will continue to have these issues. Imagine 15 classes in 3 races with 45 boats, and now imagine 6 classes in 3 races with 45 boats. Which one would you rather watch?

I used to care which classes ran, but anymore, I don't even care what classes still exist, it just has to be reduced.

Ironically, I think every org has the rule in their book that there has to be 5 boats to have a class. Imagine if they actually enforced that.

Still think we could have run with them with the bigger prop (Our average lap speed was just under 8 mph slower than Randy's). And Chris's Red one is just as fast. Probably would have been down a couple mph though still, Saturdays water would have made it very interesting. There were still 5 SVL contenders without the two Bat Boats.

I am also saying there are too many classes. That's my number one point above. And what group is the biggest offender????? (I'm not answering that one).

As for the 5 boat rule, there would have been 4 classes in St Clair that qualified, plus two more with 4 boats. (3.66 boats per race average, 4 even if you CatCanDo out of it's only class....).

The entire year so far, there would have only been two times in SBI where there were 5 boats in a class Both at Sarasota, and once again, SVL was there for one of the two, so without them, only one time all year were there 5boats in a race in SBI.

Obviously 45 boats, 6 classes. But I'm not sure 6 is enough. What would your 6 be if it was your decision? And where would all of the boats currently campaigning fit in those?

Unless my notes, and program, are wrong. There were just as many SVL's in St Clair as the largest class in Key West last year. I show P4 was the largest with 5 boats.

[Sean H]

well, I am not too concerned which 6 classes it is (or combo of classes). The easiest thing would take the 6 biggest (or ones that could be combined easily to make the 6 biggest). Me personally; Extreme, SuperCat, SuperVee, Cat Outboard, SVL and an outlaw class. Make the outlaw class your 75 mph gps class, if you want to run faster, you have SVL, you want to run faster, Cat Outboard, faster yet? SuperVee, then SuperCat and Extreme. Throw some rules into those classes to allow some different setups and options, but pretty much be spec classes. Like I said though, I would take any 6 classes at this point.

Do we need both 750/850? Do we need turbine/extreme cat/extreme vee? Do we need a class 5/6 with a 5 mph difference? Does SBI need 2 different extreme vee?

Feelings are going to be hurt. Not everybody can or will be satisfied. It must be done though. Doing it now, when boat counts are down, schedules are changing, orgs are changing names is probably the best time. Announce it early, let teams prepare for changes if necessary.

If you showed up at a camping world east/west race with a turbo v6 car do you think they would let you race? should they?

As far as comparing race sites, they are all broken. It's all the same thing. 1 boat, 2 boats, 3 boats, 3.66 boats.... its pretty much all the same. It's says much about our sport when we are excited about 5 boats in a class. I also don't look at the best 3 sites, lets look at the other 15-20 sites. What do those sites draw (boats and fans)? If those sites fail, the other 3 won't matter either.

[Ratickle]

I would have more than 6 classes. (Kinda by top speed) 10 total. Maybe down to 9 because one of these needs to match Overseas Class 1 identically.

Extreme - Anything goes

Extreme Vee - Anything V goes

Super Cat 750 or 850 (Not Both) - Twins

Super Cat 525 - Twins

Super Vee 525 - Twins

Lite Vee 525 - Single

Cat Outboard - Stock ? (Same as Overseas)

P- 1 - 110 mph

P- 2 - 90 mph

P- 3 - 70 mph - 30' max, single engine or twin outboards, V only

[WHEELMAN]

Less classes with some real offshore racing will be good for the sport. Years ago I remember going to races or even watching Phil Lewis NNRT tapes were cats vs vees in the same class. Ocean racing levels the playing field. We need to build few less strong classes. We can't have extreme cat & extreme turbine. We can't have three different super v classes. Also can't have 750/850. I agree with Sean H and that is were we should start IMO. Also this is a sport not a "show".

[Ratickle]

Here are P1 classes by the way.


Evolution class boats are modified production and/or prototype crafts with a fully closed canopy and safety cell.

Evolution boats are more powerful and possess bigger engines, allowing for speeds of over 100mph. Measuring between 36-43 ft, the boats have a maximum power-to-weight of 1hp per 3.5kg.

The pilot and throttlepersons must be seated and harnessed in the Evolution class.

SuperSport class boats are production boats, usually safe and affordable for consumer use.

Measuring between 33-42ft, SuperSport boats are blessed with typical pleasure navigation characteristics, such as an open-top canopy and multi-speed gearbox.

Carrying a power-to-weight ratio of 1hp per 4.5kg, the SuperSport boats are less powerful and built with smaller engines.

SuperSport boats are limited to race-speeds of 85mph for safety reasons with pilots and throttlepersons allowed to stand or sit and not allowed to be harnessed.

During a race, the SuperSport boats are allowed to exceed the speed limit but only for a maximum of ten seconds. Rules state that exceeding this 10 second limit will incur a 60 second time penalty for a first offence with a further 90 seconds for every following penalty incurred.

A maximum of five penalties are allowed before a boat is disqualified with the same punishment given for those boats that exceed the speed limit for 30 seconds or more.

[Sean H]

I would have more than 6 classes. (Kinda by top speed) 10 total. Maybe down to 9 because one of these needs to match Overseas Class 1 identically.

Extreme - Anything goes

Extreme Vee - Anything V goes

Super Cat 750 or 850 (Not Both) - Twins

Super Cat 525 - Twins

Super Vee 525 - Twins

Lite Vee 525 - Single

Cat Outboard - Stock ? (Same as Overseas)

P- 1 - 110 mph

P- 2 - 90 mph

P- 3 - 70 mph - 30' max, single engine or twin outboards, V only

you could run a supercat (750 or 850) in class 1 if you wanted to... it doesn't go the other way as well with rudder setups and v-12, but its not far off. The merc class 1 engine is basically a 850 with a higher rpm limit. I don't think anybody here wants to run the budget to compete in a Class 1 style boat right now.

I would be good with 9 or 10 classes instead of 15 right now.

[TCEd]

With the number of classes you guys are discussing it sure sounds like SCCA club racing and there's nothing wrong with that concept but it's not a money maker.
Regarding long distance offshore racing............ you'll never get a large spectator base that pays the bill and prize money. It's oldschool like playing football outdoors. Nice to discuss, nice to watch in videos, nice to discuss but wil not draw a paying spectator base at $50 a seat.

ed
( more than a spectator)

[Ratickle]

With the number of classes you guys are discussing it sure sounds like SCCA club racing and there's nothing wrong with that concept but it's not a money maker.
Regarding long distance offshore racing............ you'll never get a large spectator base that pays the bill and prize money. It's oldschool like playing football outdoors. Nice to discuss, nice to watch in videos, nice to discuss but wil not draw a paying spectator base at $50 a seat.

ed
( more than a spectator)

It's a drop from 15 to 9 or 10. That's a huge reduction in the number of classes being run currently.

[dockrocker]

I can't get this to post correctly. But, this is my opinion of problem number 1. If you see any errors, let me know and I'll change/correct them. It's tough to read all the rule books. And there are still a couple of blanks.


Class Org. (s) Hull Size Hull Style Engine Size Engine Qty. Max Speed

1 Extreme/Turbine OPA Any Any Any Any na
2 Unlimited Offshore OSS 40' to 50' Any Turbine Any na
3 Turbine SBI 38' to 50' Cat Turbine Twin na
4 Superboat Unlimited/Cat Ext. SBI/OSS 40' to 50' Cat Any Any na
5 Superboat V Unlimited Ext. SBI 40' to 50' V Any Any na
6 Superboat V Unlimited SBI 40' to 50' V Any Any na
7 Supercharged Cat OSS 37' 2" to 46' Cat Twin na
8 Cat OSS 38' to 40' Cat Twin na
9 Cat Light OSS/OPA 35' to 38' Cat 525's Twin na
10 Vee OSS 33' to 42' V Twin na
11 Super Vee OSS 36' to 43' V Twin na
12 Supercat 850 SBI & OPA 36' to 46' Cat 565 Twin na
13 Supercat 750 SBI & OPA 36' to 46' Cat 510 Twin na
14 Supercat SBI 36' to 40' Cat Twin na
15 Super Vee SBI/OPA 34' to 40' V 525's Twin na
16 Super V Limited/Vee Light SBI/OSS 26' to 32' V 525 Single na
17 Superboat Stock/Cat Outbd SBI/OSS 28' to 32' Cat Any Outbd Twin na
18 P1 SBI Any Any Any Any 117 mph
19 Class 100 OPA Any Any Any Any 115 mph
20 P2 SBI Any Any Any Any 105 mph
21 Pro Am 1 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 95 mph
22 Class 300/P3 OPA/SBI Any Any Any Any 95 mph
23 Pro Am 2 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 85 mph
24 P4 SBI Any Any Any Any 85 mph
25 Class 400 OPA Any V Any Any 85 mph
26 Pro Am 3 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 75 mph
27 Class 500 OPA 0' to 30' V Any Any 75 mph
28 P 5 SBI 0' to 30' Any Any Single 75 mph
29 Class 600 OPA 0' to 26' V Any Any 70 mph
30 Pro Am 4 OSS 24' to 30' Any Any Single In/ Twin Out 65 mph

Go to the head of the class!!!! I like racing and have been into offshore boats for 10 years, and I still can't make heads or tails of it half the time!

[Ratickle]

Go to the head of the class!!!! I like racing and have been into offshore boats for 10 years, and I still can't make heads or tails of it half the time!

It's kinda of weird that only seven of those meet he requirements in more than one Organization.

[Slandrew]

Viewing is a good point:seeya: I attended Bahama race once had great seats but elected to go on huge party boat better view better pictures!Also was on local radio station so on shore fans could hear exact status of race!Money is a factor but some fans whould pay and station boat in center of races just a thought:leaving::lurk5:

[Mike A.]

as much as some didn't like him, Michael Allweiss did a good job of bringing the sport closer to the fans.

Whadya mean? Who didn't like me?:cuss:

[ericc]

Whadya mean? Who didn't like me?:cuss:

Oops, my bad. EVERYBODY loved ya, LOL! Love the little Corsa down at the Innovation shop. Hope you're doing well Mike.:rofl:

[Ratickle]

Like Matt, I am a professional fan of offshore racing, having covered the sport seriously for 9 years at Powerboat. I also raced for about three years before similar spousal pressure and the birth of my son Blake made me decide to hang up the orange helmet. I admit that every time I see a race, part of me yearns to be out there. I tried to cover the sport with an optimistic approach and annually hoped that a coming season would be the year when everyone got together and made the sport as great as it could be. I think that the closest we got was when Gene Whipp was running APBA Offshore and, as much as some didn't like him, Michael Allweiss did a good job of bringing the sport closer to the fans. Matt's assessment is dead-on. It's primarily always been a serious hobby, not a professional sport, but one we can't seem to get enough of.

Okay, first, what were the keys to Gene and Michaels successes? Plus other eras where there were successful periods?

You gotta start somewhere.

[Mike A.]

Oops, my bad. EVERYBODY loved ya, LOL! Love the little Corsa down at the Innovation shop. Hope you're doing well Mike.:rofl:

Whattup E?! I am doing really well. How are you? Remember the old Subluxator "A" boat? Well, that is the Corsa you saw at Innovation. They are putting in a new Vortec and port side throttle station. Time for the kids to learn to drive a performance boat with Daddy as T-Man. G-d help 'em!

[Mike A.]

Okay, first, what were the keys to Gene and Michaels successes? Plus other eras where there were successful periods?

You gotta start somewhere.

Television and Factory classes.

[ericc]

Okay, first, what were the keys to Gene and Michaels successes? Plus other eras where there were successful periods?

You gotta start somewhere.

A couple of things made Gene a success and the first was that he was a FORMER, not current racer when he was in charge, so he had no personal agenda. Plus, he had instant credibility and respect from the competitors so no one questioned his decisions. He came the closest to ruling with an "iron fist," so to speak. Finally, he was also fortunate enough to have a strong fleet of Open and Modified class boats, long before there were Super Cat 750s, 850s and all this stuff we have today. Many would argue that the old class system worked better, especially when you had cats competing against V-bottom in Open and Modified.

Michael came the closest to making it a spectator sport, got corporate backing from GMC and other companies and basically laid the foundation for the current class structure with the Factory and Spec-motor classes we have today. The first canopied Fountain to appear at the world championship basically killed Factory class racing because now everyone had to have a much more expensive canopied boat to be competitive. Yes it is safer to be enclosed, but it definitely limits boat counts and it essentially pushed companies like Donzi, Cigarette, Velocity, Sunsation, Hustler and others out of the sport because they don't build boats exclusively for racing.

Trust me, I could go on and on, but my 5-year-old daughter is sick of seeing me write this and it's kind of tough to type when you've 53 wriggling pounds sitting on your shoulders.

[Ratickle]

Go on and on as you get time, different points of view for the same issue are always good.........

Some questions/observations about your comments.



1. I see no way to put Cat and Vee back together in Open and Modified. The slower GPS classes, yes. My opinion is many current teams would say heck with it.


2. To get back to Factory Class racing, the speeds would somehow have to be contained at under a maximum top speed of -?- to keep the teams safe. What would that speed be, and, would/should it be done with weight per HP like the overseas circuits?

3. Did running courses closer to shore also help with the spectator sport issue? It seems to me to be the largest complaint I hear. And, when someone does swing wide at the end of a race, people really get excited.

[ericc]

Go on and on as you get time, different points of view for the same issue are always good.........

Some questions/observations about your comments.



1. I see no way to put Cat and Vee back together in Open and Modified. The slower GPS classes, yes. My opinion is many current teams would say heck with it.


2. To get back to Factory Class racing, the speeds would somehow have to be contained at under a maximum top speed of -?- to keep the teams safe. What would that speed be, and, would/should it be done with weight per HP like the overseas circuits?

3. Did running courses closer to shore also help with the spectator sport issue? It seems to me to be the largest complaint I hear. And, when someone does swing wide at the end of a race, people really get excited.

I'd rather see V and cat race in a controlled competition than at the front of a poker run with Cat Killer jumping the start to prove that Fountains are faster than catamarans. And before anyone jumps on me for being a Reggie-hater, you're wrong. He's done amazing things for the sport of performance boating and offshore racing, but I just don't agree with this particular approach.

The sport of offshore racing goes through cyclical ebbs and flows. When the fleets are big, guys stick around for a couple of years, get sick of the politics and leave, while the die-hards keep running and wait for the next increase in fleet numbers.

What I miss, personally, is the POPRA days in the mid-1990s when travel costs were minimal because there was a great LOCAL circuit for guys who didn't want to travel all over the country. OPA provides that now for guys on the NY, NJ and MD coasts and I'm not sure what's going on for guys on the West Coast. SBI is primarily a FLA circuit for competitors who don't want to travel outside the Sunshine State, but John isn't exactly a big proponent of the smaller classes.

I'd like to see the sport get back to racing with the smaller classes in local organizations and then ONE big NATIONAL circuit with a few classes, such as Super Cat, Cat Lite and Cat Outboard with Super Vee and Vee lite, vying for National championships. The guys in the smaller classes would need to QUALIFY for the world championships in Key West and that title would mean something. I raced in the old Offshore A class in Key West in the mid-1990s and there were at least 20 boats. It was awesome and if you won, you felt like you accomplished something.

[Ratickle]

OPA's circle is a 12 hour drive maximum when they set it up. I think they did a good job.

Great Lakes to Northeast guys.

[Ratickle]

And one thing we don't want to discuss on this thread is Cat Killer in a Poker Run. That needs to stay somewhere else.:sifone:

[ericc]

And one thing we don't want to discuss on this thread is Cat Killer in a Poker Run. That needs to stay somewhere else.:sifone:

True, true. Great Point.

[Ratickle]

F1 and F2 (Or one or the other). Viable for return? Or dead forever?

[imco offshore]

money helped kill offshore lateley big money attracts more big money , it,s all a personal agenda, so you want to be a STAR, build a big boat put in an engine or turbine in it knowing well there is no class for it , don,t worry? go to any org PAY THEM to start a class with your boat and engine type ,, bwalla your now WORLD CHAMPION , PRESENT this ressume to a unknowing sponsor tell them you never been beat they think these guys are all that bwalla MORE MONEY. how many WORLD CHAMPIONS can you think of that DID,NT race anyone, think about it , it,s all the BIG CLASSES super turbines, giant 1500 hp v-8s, cats , giant v-8s super v,s , even cats with 4 engines, I ,seen a woman on a dock at a race jumping up and down screeming at the top of her lungs GOOO GOOO GGOOOO. everybody was looking at her after the race yelling WE WON WE WON , i stood next to her after the race was over acting like a unknowing fan and aksed her,, you won ?she yelled YESS , i asked WHO WERE YOU RACING? the blood drained from her face as 50 people waited for the answer! if they trully wanted to compete against someone else they could have, the org,s were whores for the buck, !yea we all <racers> would love the chance to ride or drive one of these things , but you have to be in the right place at the right time, you know how that goes, but untill the org,s qiut passing out checkerd flags like candy , the sport will always fight mockery , it,s not the number of classes , it,s the number IN THE CLASS, if there arn,t at least 3 or more boats in a class , your not racing , your riding around on a race course. i think it would be humileating to stand on a deck of a race boat waving a checkerd flag back and forth, going into the pits where 100 other drivers and throttleman are knowing they all know you didn,t beat time, ,,sorry,,, well that,s my 2 cents, :USA:

[imco offshore]

F1 and F2 (Or one or the other). Viable for return? Or dead forever?

i think to have f 1 or f 2 you would need factory involvment,

[Ratickle]

True, but in another stance, there is a market for that.

I put it in the same principle as wheel-standers, jet-dragsters, the Blue Angels, etc.

They really don't compete with anyone except one or two under very rare circumstances. But, when the Blue Angels are around for an air show, attendance usually doubles. The Bi-Planes and stunt pilots who compete are still there, they are just kind of upstaged by a high dollar really big show.

Same with the jet dragsters and wheelstanders at the tracks around the country.

As my wife said at St Clair, every time CatCanDo came around, the crowd cheered, excitement was increased, etc. It is the biggest, loudest, and fastest thing there (and was racing no-one)......

Probably didn't make JD Byrider and Amsoil super happy. But, helps with the gate next year.

So, work them in to help support, and promote, the sport of racing. If it does that, it's good for all. (I think)

[DAREDEVIL]

money helped kill offshore lateley big money attracts more big money , it,s all a personal agenda, so you want to be a STAR, build a big boat put in an engine or turbine in it knowing well there is no class for it , don,t worry? go to any org PAY THEM to start a class with your boat and engine type ,, bwalla your now WORLD CHAMPION , PRESENT this ressume to a unknowing sponsor tell them you never been beat they think these guys are all that bwalla MORE MONEY. how many WORLD CHAMPIONS can you think of that DID,NT race anyone, think about it , it,s all the BIG CLASSES super turbines, giant 1500 hp v-8s, cats , giant v-8s super v,s , even cats with 4 engines, I ,seen a woman on a dock at a race jumping up and down screeming at the top of her lungs GOOO GOOO GGOOOO. everybody was looking at her after the race yelling WE WON WE WON , i stood next to her after the race was over acting like a unknowing fan and aksed her,, you won ?she yelled YESS , i asked WHO WERE YOU RACING? the blood drained from her face as 50 people waited for the answer! if they trully wanted to compete against someone else they could have, the org,s were whores for the buck, !yea we all <racers> would love the chance to ride or drive one of these things , but you have to be in the right place at the right time, you know how that goes, but untill the org,s qiut passing out checkerd flags like candy , the sport will always fight mockery , it,s not the number of classes , it,s the number IN THE CLASS, if there arn,t at least 3 or more boats in a class , your not racing , your riding around on a race course. i think it would be humileating to stand on a deck of a race boat waving a checkerd flag back and forth, going into the pits where 100 other drivers and throttleman are knowing they all know you didn,t beat time, ,,sorry,,, well that,s my 2 cents, :USA:

I agree.

[DAREDEVIL]

True, but in another stance, there is a market for that.

I put it in the same principle as wheel-standers, jet-dragsters, the Blue Angels, etc.


Then they should put on an after race show just for them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ratickle]

Then they should put on an after race show just for them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then I think you'd lose their involvement.

[imco offshore]

Then they should put on an after race show just for them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

damn DD i agree too, don,t label them WORLD CHAMPIONS , :willy_nilly:

[Ratickle]

So, reach a comprimise. To get a world championship, you need at least two other competitors. Otherwise it's a ????? fastest lap award or something.

[DAREDEVIL]

Then I think you'd lose their involvement.

Which probably wouldn't be bad at all. FOR THE SPORT.
not for the fans at this point because most of them are there because of that.
Which i think is sad.
I do think the best racing is if u take all V singles canopy boats.
all V twin canopy boats and same for the open ones. and stick them in a class for each.
Make some rules for engine/'s and length and that it.
Ofcorse the cats the same.

[DAREDEVIL]

So, reach a comprimise. To get a world championship, you need at least two other competitors. Otherwise it's a ????? fastest lap award or something.

Well,,,that kind of would be unfair too.
I got my National championship last year,,,with almost not racing anybody.
I am proud of it ( in a way ) but it was not my fault that the other boats did not show up to the races and i did.

I KNOW FOR SURE SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE.
And i don't think its an org. problem ,,,,i think its US ....THE RACERS THAT NEED TO CHANGE IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ratickle]

I was referring to world championship. I think to get a national championship it takes more than one race weekend.

I'm just listening and throwing stuff out there.

[Matt Trulio]

Competitive sailing is not interesting unless you are a sailor. It is hard to understand. It is far from shore. It is less dramatic than a close chess match (great if you're one of the players, or the parent of one of the players, a real snoozer). It makes for pretty lame TV.

So why does it get televised in such a big way? I have no idea. I suspect the TV ratings are, on the whole, abysmal. (I've tried to find them but can't and need to get back to work.)

It is one of life's greatest mysteries. Whoever asked that question ... you got me there.

I just don't know.

[Ratickle]

The ratings for America's cup are usually great for the possible market share.

[T2x]

The ratings for America's cup are usually great for the possible market share.

It's like competitive speed skating...nobody watches it except every 4th year at the Olympics......

T2x

[Ratickle]

It's like competitive speed skating...nobody watches it except every 4th year at the Olympics......

T2x

Good point. Been waiting for you to weigh in.

I'm hoping for everyone to identify the strengths of each era first.:)

Then, the demise of each era and the root causes.:(

Then, get it right, one thing at a time.....:sifone:

Not really hoping for much, am I.

[Clayfan]

I have been a fan of Offshore Racing since the mid 80's. Just about the time the cat boats (gentry, cougar, skater 24's) came to being.
I think we (they) the sanction bodies made a mistake when they did away with Factory 1 and Factory 2 classes. I know the fleets were huge and maybe too big to handle on some of the "newer, more spectator acessable courses". But it was great racing and a real team race from the boat builder to the rigger to the shore crew to the throttle man and driver. You had to keep your equipment together and ease the boat through crap water in order to win.
Maybe if they had a class that was too big they could run qaulifers on Saturday or Sunday morning to thin the feild to an acceptable level.
The old Class V single or twin OB on a v hull 24 ft or shorter took a lot less $ to run and a steady throttle hand to keep the wet bits in the water as well.
Just my 02 cents

[cigdaze]

I have been a fan of Offshore Racing since the mid 80's. Just about the time the cat boats (gentry, cougar, skater 24's) came to being.
I think we (they) the sanction bodies made a mistake when they did away with Factory 1 and Factory 2 classes. I know the fleets were huge and maybe too big to handle on some of the "newer, more spectator acessable courses". But it was great racing and a real team race from the boat builder to the rigger to the shore crew to the throttle man and driver. You had to keep your equipment together and ease the boat through crap water in order to win.
Maybe if they had a class that was too big they could run qaulifers on Saturday or Sunday morning to thin the feild to an acceptable level.
The old Class V single or twin OB on a v hull 24 ft or shorter took a lot less $ to run and a steady throttle hand to keep the wet bits in the water as well.
Just my 02 cents

You got it. What's not to love about this?...
:)

[Ratickle]

I have been a fan of Offshore Racing since the mid 80's. Just about the time the cat boats (gentry, cougar, skater 24's) came to being.
I think we (they) the sanction bodies made a mistake when they did away with Factory 1 and Factory 2 classes. I know the fleets were huge and maybe too big to handle on some of the "newer, more spectator acessable courses". But it was great racing and a real team race from the boat builder to the rigger to the shore crew to the throttle man and driver. You had to keep your equipment together and ease the boat through crap water in order to win.
Maybe if they had a class that was too big they could run qaulifers on Saturday or Sunday morning to thin the feild to an acceptable level.
The old Class V single or twin OB on a v hull 24 ft or shorter took a lot less $ to run and a steady throttle hand to keep the wet bits in the water as well.
Just my 02 cents

They are currently facing the same issue in X-Cat overseas. 26 boats in the last race I believe, one class. Over $1 million prize money for the one race.....

And 10 boats in the last P1 race I believe.

And we can't work it out? :ack2:

[Ratickle]

You got it. What's not to love about this?...
:)

Love that pic :drool5:. Is Jim, Mobilemercman, in there somewhere?

[Matt Trulio]

I am not trying to be the voice of doom here, but the overseas offshore racing picture isn't as pretty as you might think.

UIM Class 1 has been struggling economically for years (that came to me from one of the leading, long-time throttle men on the circuit), and without its uber-wealthy (and unfailingly enthusiastic) owner pumping in cash, Powerboat P1 would look a whole lot different than it does now. It may even be ... invisible. Both circuits are far from economically self-sufficient, meaning profitable to the point of self-sustainability.

I am not making up this stuff. I am not saying it can't change. I'm just saying ... it is.

Here's what I can tell you, firsthand because I've been there, that UIM and Powerboat P1 do extremely well that their counterparts in the U.S. do not: They make the race weekend into an event, a carnival of sorts. The racing is just part of a much bigger show.

I don't know exactly what that translates to in terms of "real" spectators, but I have never seen crowds for an offshore race like those I saw in Norway for a UIM Class 1 race and in Malta for a Powerboat P1 race.

Like it or not, offshore powerboat racing is, and always will be, a fringe sport. Way, way cool and spectacular, but fringe. Also, as I hope I managed to convey in my column, it will be always be around. And there's really nothing wrong with that.

[Brownie]

Matt.... Your column or the racing?

[ericc]

Matt.... Your column or the racing?

I'd say there's nothing wrong with Matt's column or his follow-up research. The facts are what they are and enthusiasts don't always want to hear less-than-positive facts about their hobby. Offshore racing always seems to go through cyclical ups and downs. Every few years, it peaks with big fleets and deep-pocketed owners who come in with plans to change the world. Everyone gets excited and then a couple of the big teams decide they've had enough and things quiet down until a new guy comes along. It's just the way it is.

As for Daredevil's statement about the racers changing the sport, that's always been the problem. The racers shouldn't be governing the sport they compete in. The France family doesn't compete in NASCAR Sprint Cup and Tony George doesn't drive an Indy Car. If you want to be on the racecourse, buy a boat, set it up according to class rules and go racing. If you want to be part of the organization that establishes the rules, governs the sport and stages events, get out of the cockpit and be a race official. You can't do both.

[Mike A.]

I know some people hate hearing this because they have to take responsibility for the outcome, however, the LLC was moving in the right direction. We had a major series sponsor, and a number of other excellent industry sponsors, 80+ boats at every event, several large fleet classes, two hours of TV at every event on Speed, growing TV audiences, large crowds everywhere, solid press coverage, and growing revenues. Then Mauf, Teague, Whittier, Abrams, Chastelet, et. al, the so-called rich excellent businessmen, and Mercury, decided they could do better and Poof, away it all went. I do not think the sport will ever recover mainly because there are not enough deep pocket idiots left in the world willing to do what it would take to breathe life back into it.

[Matt Trulio]

Thanks, Eric. I am so not down on the sport, as you know. I want it to succeed. It's just that after observing offshore racing for almost 15 years now, I have what I consider to be realistic expectations.

When I started writing for Powerboat and you were my editor, I didn't necessarily "want" to like offshore racing. But it grew on me and while I'd never want to do it myself (forget the inherent danger, I can't take the beating) I am flat out in awe of those who do it well. Like you, I've been lucky enough to work with guys like John Tomlinson and Jerry Gilbreath and they operate at a level most of us can't imagine.

Mike A. and the LLC had some great momentum in 1999 and 2000. Certainly, the robust economy, and the foundation work of Gene Whipp, didn't hurt. But to be fair to Mike and the rest of his crew, there was more to it than that. They did some things very, very well.

I do, however, think it provides a less than complete picture to lay total blame at the feet of several individuals for the demise. I won't argue it here, but over the years, Mike, you and I have spoken many times. And as I've I understood your position, you believe there were plenty of mistakes made on all sides, including your own. (Recall our very long interview in which you said you wished you had approached Reggie Fountain differently.) Again, no "argument" here. Just a point of clarification.

And Brownie ... I thought you were out of this industry. Damn, now I have to keep my facts straight and my head down.

[ericc]

Hope all is well Matt. I never intended to imply that you were down on the sport at all, but you do sound like me when I decided to stop covering offshore. Every year I would start the season hoping this would be the time when all the arguing stops, everyone gets together and the sport grows. Instead, the annual political battles would ensue and the splintering would remain or grow worse. That's the problem when team/boat owners have so much influence that if they threaten to leave the sport unless they get their way, the officials bend to their will.

I was in awe of what all the teams could and would do in the boats, especially after having experienced what they go through personally. And I can tell you, there's nothing that beats the feeling when the race is over and you're the one with the checkered flag, but the sport is what it is. It's an amazing test of man and machine against the elements that will never be of interest to the masses, any more than off-road rally or desert racing is.

People look at offshore racing and think, "Those guys are nuts." I look at skydivers and think those guys are crazy. Every weekend when you'd come back to the office and regale us with your tales of plunging out of a plane over the desert and showed the photos, I was shocked at how you could be that comfortable jumping out of a plane. I guess the point is, regardless of what extreme endeavor is your pleasure, to each his own and everyone enjoy. Wow, that's mighty enlightened for this cranky old man.

[GENERAL LEE]

That's the problem when team/boat owners have so much influence that if they threaten to leave the sport unless they get their way, the officials bend to their will.



To me, THAT's where the various officials need to stand their ground & call the "racers" bluff.

Tell the ones that "threaten" to leave, to haul ass.

The ones that truly love to race aren't going anywhere, and will adapt to any changes needed to make the overall sport better. The ones that actually DO leave, aren't the right kind of "racers" or "posers" that the sport can count on for future progression anyway.

Make the rules, and STICK to them. No race team/racer is so big in this sport that they should be able to manipulate the way the whole sport is ran.

Hypothetically: If anyone was THAT big, it would mean the sport has become big enough to create & market a personality or team of that popularity. The sport isn't there yet, so neither is "Mr Threaten everyone with leaving", therefore take a seat, or take a hike.

Like you guys have said, there will likely always be some kind of offshore racing. Putting your feet down with a firm set of rules, may anger a few, and there MAY even be a few that DO leave, but there will always be another guy right behind them ready to race, and do it by the organizations rules. :bump:

[T2x]

It seems to me that the overseas guys have managed to learn some lessons, and then created another problem. No doubt, there are fewer classes in the overseas' series. That's a good thing. Unfortunately, there are too many series (UIM class 1-5/P1/XCat). So, they sort of cured a headache with an upset stomach. So far it all looks rosy, but wait and see. It's only a matter of time before these series become detrimental to each other.

The reality is the sport has gone backwards since the UIM/APBA was displaced as the only sanctioning body. History has taught us some simple facts. If you give racers a "choice", they will no doubt opt for the path that is least helpful to the general good of the sport. If you give wealthy racers a "choice", they will choose the most dramatic, colorful, and expensive path that is least helpful to the general good of the sport.

A major series sponsor with a competent TV package, backing a simple, understandable, cash paying, class structure (with no "exceptions, compromises, or side deals") is the only thing that will bring the racers into line. Until we solve the problem of multiple series, classes and sanctioning bodies, we cannot attract that major series sponsor.

If my head was betting my own cash, I would set the "over/under" of the sports survival at 5 years....... and I'd take the under. On the other hand, my heart prays that the "leaders" of the sport stop patting themselves on the back, take their heads out of the sand, acknowledge their delusions of grandeur, and, without compromise, pursue a course of unification and simplification.

One other thing in this endeavour...always remember.....it's not about you.

T2x

[Ratickle]

I'm trying not to say anything negative about anybody, anything, any venue, period.

If the group of guys on here who have been involved in the positives put all of their heads together like this, and lay those positives out, and try to figure out EVERYBODY'S opinions why they were positives. The sport will go a long way toward those great eras. You guys know, I'm just trying to figure it out.

Matt, I currently disagree with some of your conclusions. But, I don't know enough to debate it, and certainly don't have the experience you do. I will say on one hand you say it was a going, and growing, concern with Mike and group. On the other you say it is what it is. I see that as you saying Mike had it going towards what it could be and something changed.

In business I always tell every company I review to forget about what went wrong, who to blame, CYA, and any other negatives cause I don't care. I say figure out everything that worked, and then see what, if any, of those things you are currently not doing........

Make sense?

[Ratickle]

One other thing in this endeavour...always remember.....it's not about you.

T2x

For The Love Of The Sport.......:)

[salrcr42]

It seems to me that the overseas guys have managed to learn some lessons, and then created another problem. No doubt, there are fewer classes in the overseas' series. That's a good thing. Unfortunately, there are too many series (UIM class 1-5/P1/XCat). So, they sort of cured a headache with an upset stomach. So far it all looks rosy, but wait and see. It's only a matter of time before these series become detrimental to each other.

The reality is the sport has gone backwards since the UIM/APBA was displaced as the only sanctioning body. History has taught us some simple facts. If you give racers a "choice", they will no doubt opt for the path that is least helpful to the general good of the sport. If you give wealthy racers a "choice", they will choose the most dramatic, colorful, and expensive path that is least helpful to the general good of the sport.

A major series sponsor with a competent TV package, backing a simple, understandable, cash paying, class structure (with no "exceptions, compromises, or side deals") is the only thing that will bring the racers into line. Until we solve the problem of multiple series, classes and sanctioning bodies, we cannot attract that major series sponsor.

If my head was betting my own cash, I would set the "over/under" of the sports survival at 5 years....... and I'd take the under. On the other hand, my heart prays that the "leaders" of the sport stop patting themselves on the back, take their heads out of the sand, acknowledge their delusions of grandeur, and, without compromise, pursue a course of unification and simplification.

One other thing in this endeavour...always remember.....it's not about you.

T2x
Amen !!!

[Mike A.]

.

Mike A. and the LLC had some great momentum in 1999 and 2000. Certainly, the robust economy, and the foundation work of Gene Whipp, didn't hurt. But to be fair to Mike and the rest of his crew, there was more to it than that. They did some things very, very well.

I do, however, think it provides a less than complete picture to lay total blame at the feet of several individuals for the demise.


Since I actually lived the history from the inside, let me point out a few things that hopefully will help those searching for perspective and answers to the current problems. In the process, I will try to "complete" the picture as well.

1. Gene saved APBA Offshore. At the annual meeting immediately before he took over several members of the ORC had drafted a contract that would have given the offshore category to US Offshore and SBR in exchange for assuming the category debt which at the time was substantial due to gross mismanagement from Gene's predecessor and the same cast of characters who had been on the ORC for years. Several newbies called BS on the deal. They went to then APBA president Steve David who approved a plan to fire the ORC Chairman and draft Gene to take over. Gene agreed.

He personally invested more than $100,000.00 of his own money to get good TV on a new network, Speedvision. He, Rich, and Dick C. built a good product. Gene also paid off the category's debt to APBA with his own funds. He secured Baja as a series sponsor based solely upon his clout with Brunswick as a major Sea Ray dealer. He also endorsed the Factory classes for 1997 which the ORC had approved prior to his being hired.

When Gene assumed control there were no race sites except for Sarasota planned for 1997. Gene put a circuit together that year. Nevertheless, SBR and USO had a much bigger fleet for their KW Worlds than did APBA's Biloxi event. Remember too, the economy was at full song.

2. By the start of the 1998 season, however, Gene was already growing tired. He was a one man show when it came to selling sponsorships, paying for TV, etc. When 12 boats showed up for the National Championships in South Padre Island, Gene was done. KW again outdrew Biloxi. The economy was still at full song.

3. When I took over as Chairman in December of 1998 here is what the 1999 season looked like: 2 open boats, Alcone and Drambuie, and 4 guaranteed race sites. Baja wanted to pull out as the series sponsor which would have left us with Citgo as the only major and that was only because Nigel Hook had brought them to the table. And the category owed Gene nearly $100,000.00. I personally repaid Gene, and then invested another $250,000.00 of my own money to get TNN and Speed, which helped us re-up Baja.

4. The 1999 season, however, was still in trouble. We had 32 boats at the second event in New Hampshire, after which Alcone left for SBI and then Europe. We had a couple of races with no Open Boats. TV was good but I was growing tired too and had no appetite for a 2000 season. Luckily, that mind set helped several of us (principally Miklos and George Linder) throw caution to the wind and develop Super Cat against heavy, heavy, heavy, opposition. The prospect of Super Cat caused the turn around in momentum heading into 2000. We had an excellent Worlds in St. Pete and finally outdrew KW. Remember too that the economy was heading into recession and the market had begun its dramatic decline.

5. 2000 was huge. We formed the LLC and invested a substantial sum of money into the sport. We had 147 boats in St. Pete for the Worlds. However, that number was inflated because we still had quite a few A and B boats, which we were fazing out, and a number of Super Cats that were older boats with no long term potential.

6. In 2001 and 2002 the economy went into the tank, and we had 911. Still, the overall fleet counts were only down 10% and that was mainly because the A and B boats were fading away. We had added new exciting sites like Savannah, and a prominent series title sponsor in GM, which the sport had not seen since HFC in the 1980's.

7. In 2003, the APBA fleet actually grew from 2002, even though the economy was still struggling and we were fighting two wars. And we were producing 2 hours of television for each event. In other words, the momentum was strong through 2003. We had 83 boats for the St. Pete National Championships, the most for a year end event in a decade at the time. We had resolved our fight with APBA and had a plan in place for 2004 to raise money and to go on a spec engine program that would have drastically reduced everyone's costs for future racing. US Offshore was gone and SBI was wobbling with events consisting of fleets in the teens.

8. Then the boycott happened and the LLC members decided enough was enough. We were not going to spend any more money on what had instantly become a hopeless cause.

So, while I readily admit that the LLC, and me in particular, made all kinds of mistakes, and could have done several things differently and better, that is true with any business. Thus, I can easily lay blame for the sport's demise on the boycotters and OSS founders (Mauf, Teague, Whittier, Abrams, Chastelet, Mercury, et al.) They are truly responsible for destroying the sport, regardless of their intentions and motivation for boycotting and starting OSS, which mainly consisted of the rules and classes the LLC created. Facts do not lie. They allowed the rules to be corrupted. They lost TV. They lost sponsors and secured virtually none. They broke promises, and failed to build a business.

The only reason anyone has ever suggested that I should accept responsibility for what happened is that somehow I did not care or listen enough to the boycotters, so they got mad, or disenchanted and then did what they did. Whatever. The fact is that no sport can succeed without a dictator - and a tough one at that. Unless and until the sport has people involved who can accept, no embrace that concept, it will NEVER be more than it is now.

[T2x]

Since I actually lived the history from the inside, let me point out a few things that hopefully will help those searching for perspective and answers to the current problems. In the process, I will try to "complete" the picture as well.

1. Gene saved APBA Offshore. At the annual meeting immediately before he took over several members of the ORC had drafted a contract that would have given the offshore category to US Offshore and SBR in exchange for assuming the category debt which at the time was substantial due to gross mismanagement from Gene's predecessor and the same cast of characters who had been on the ORC for years. Several newbies called BS on the deal. They went to then APBA president Steve David who approved a plan to fire the ORC Chairman and draft Gene to take over. Gene agreed.

He personally invested more than $100,000.00 of his own money to get good TV on a new network, Speedvision. He, Rich, and Dick C. built a good product. Gene also paid off the category's debt to APBA with his own funds. He secured Baja as a series sponsor based solely upon his clout with Brunswick as a major Sea Ray dealer. He also endorsed the Factory classes for 1997 which the ORC had approved prior to his being hired.

When Gene assumed control there were no race sites except for Sarasota planned for 1997. Gene put a circuit together that year. Nevertheless, SBR and USO had a much bigger fleet for their KW Worlds than did APBA's Biloxi event. Remember too, the economy was at full song.

2. By the start of the 1998 season, however, Gene was already growing tired. He was a one man show when it came to selling sponsorships, paying for TV, etc. When 12 boats showed up for the National Championships in South Padre Island, Gene was done. KW again outdrew Biloxi. The economy was still at full song.

3. When I took over as Chairman in December of 1998 here is what the 1999 season looked like: 2 open boats, Alcone and Drambuie, and 4 guaranteed race sites. Baja wanted to pull out as the series sponsor which would have left us with Citgo as the only major and that was only because Nigel Hook had brought them to the table. And the category owed Gene nearly $100,000.00. I personally repaid Gene, and then invested another $250,000.00 of my own money to get TNN and Speed, which helped us re-up Baja.

4. The 1999 season, however, was still in trouble. We had 32 boats at the second event in New Hampshire, after which Alcone left for SBI and then Europe. We had a couple of races with no Open Boats. TV was good but I was growing tired too and had no appetite for a 2000 season. Luckily, that mind set helped several of us (principally Miklos and George Linder) throw caution to the wind and develop Super Cat against heavy, heavy, heavy, opposition. The prospect of Super Cat caused the turn around in momentum heading into 2000. We had an excellent Worlds in St. Pete and finally outdrew KW. Remember too that the economy was heading into recession and the market had begun its dramatic decline.

5. 2000 was huge. We formed the LLC and invested a substantial sum of money into the sport. We had 147 boats in St. Pete for the Worlds. However, that number was inflated because we still had quite a few A and B boats, which we were fazing out, and a number of Super Cats that were older boats with no long term potential.

6. In 2001 and 2002 the economy went into the tank, and we had 911. Still, the overall fleet counts were only down 10% and that was mainly because the A and B boats were fading away. We had added new exciting sites like Savannah, and a prominent series title sponsor in GM, which the sport had not seen since HFC in the 1980's.

7. In 2003, the APBA fleet actually grew from 2002, even though the economy was still struggling and we were fighting two wars. And we were producing 2 hours of television for each event. In other words, the momentum was strong through 2003. We had 83 boats for the St. Pete National Championships, the most for a year end event in a decade at the time. We had resolved our fight with APBA and had a plan in place for 2004 to raise money and to go on a spec engine program that would have drastically reduced everyone's costs for future racing. US Offshore was gone and SBI was wobbling with events consisting of fleets in the teens.

8. Then the boycott happened and the LLC members decided enough was enough. We were not going to spend any more money on what had instantly become a hopeless cause.

So, while I readily admit that the LLC, and me in particular, made all kinds of mistakes, and could have done several things differently and better, that is true with any business. Thus, I can easily lay blame for the sport's demise on the boycotters and OSS founders (Mauf, Teague, Whittier, Abrams, Chastelet, Mercury, et al.) They are truly responsible for destroying the sport, regardless of their intentions and motivation for boycotting and starting OSS, which mainly consisted of the rules and classes the LLC created. Facts do not lie. They allowed the rules to be corrupted. They lost TV. They lost sponsors and secured virtually none. They broke promises, and failed to build a business.

The only reason anyone has ever suggested that I should accept responsibility for what happened is that somehow I did not care or listen enough to the boycotters, so they got mad, or disenchanted and then did what they did. Whatever. The fact is that no sport can succeed without a dictator - and a tough one at that. Unless and until the sport has people involved who can accept, no embrace that concept, it will NEVER be more than it is now.

The above, although only slightly shorter than Obama's health plan :D, is a pretty accurate depiction of what happened during Mike's involvement IMHO. Though, to be fair, that was not the entire timeline of the sport's history, nor does it cover all of the causes and effects of the sport's total dynamic which brought us to where we are now. During the entire length of the sport's history there was a bunch of squabbling going on behind the scenes. In retrospect, had we all been a bit a more mature.....and aware of the fact that nothing in life is perfect, perhaps a different and better ending would have resulted. In any event it is general divisiveness that has brought this sport to its knees repeatedly and, until we solve that issue, will continue to infect it like a dose of the clap.

T2x

[Mike A.]

The above, although only slightly shorter than Obama's health plan :D, is a pretty accurate depiction of what happened during Mike's involvement IMHO. Although, to be fair, That was not the entire timeline of the sport's history, nor does it cover all of the causes and effects of the sport's total dynamic which brought us to where we are now. During the entire length of the sport's history there was a bunch of squabbling going on behind the scenes. In retrospect, had we all been a bit a more mature.....and aware of the fact that nothing in life is perfect, perhaps a different and better ending would have resulted. In any event it is general divisiveness that has brought this sport to its knees repeatedly and, until we solve that issue, will continue to infect it like a dose of the clap.

T2x

Rich, I completely agree with everything you said. The sport cannot succeed long term with multiple sanctioning bodies. People have to stop deluding themselves into thinking otherwise. Open wheel racing is actually doing better than it has in years one year after unification. That is not a coincidence. In addition, there has to be a single commissioner with strength, vision, and authority. There also needs to be a mechanism in place that makes it nearly if not totally impossible for competitors to steal away with the sanctioning body's proprietary product and form another group. Those things have to be in place for any business plan to work. And finally, if those things are put in place then big $$$$$$$$ is required.

Oh, and by the way, Obama has no health care plan. Congress on the other hand has drafted four different versions of over 1100 pages each.

[Matt Trulio]

I applaud Mike for his candor and for his ownership of what he feels was his responsibility in the demise of the LLC. And, as usual, I have to applaud Rich for his added perspective.

But I will have to stay far, far away from any political discourse. It goes nowhere, and really has little no place on "Serious Offshore," at least for me (unless it's used in a humorous way, as Rich used it). Oh wait, we're talking about offshore racing. It's all political discourse.

[Matt Trulio]

And Rich ... I'll take the over. What are the stakes?

[Ratickle]

I applaud Mike for his candor and for his ownership of what he feels was his in the demise of the LLC. And, as usual, I have to applaud Rich for his added perspective.

As I will stay far, far away from any political discourse. Oh wait, we're talking about offshore racing. It's all political discourse.

No need to stay far far away. Keep it positive and it's a good thing. I'd hate to not have experienced input from anybody who's been there as much as you have.

[Mike A.]

I applaud Mike for his candor and for his ownership of what he feels was his responsibility in the demise of the LLC. And, as usual, I have to applaud Rich for his added perspective.

But I will have to stay far, far away from any political discourse. It goes nowhere, and really has little no place on "Serious Offshore," at least for me (unless it's used in a humorous way, as Rich used it). Oh wait, we're talking about offshore racing. It's all political discourse.

Matt,

IMHO we are not talking about politics here. These are the hard realities. If the brave remaining few truly want to set the sport back on the right path these realities have to be recognized and dealt with: 1. Certain people who have been constants as leaders of the sport for the past 20 + years have to be politely excluded from any future leadership positions of influence; 2. There has to be unification; 3. There has to be a dictator with strong support from a deep pocket BOD; 4. There has to be a single set of rules controlled by the dictator and his own people who are independent from the industry; 5. There has to be TV; 6. There has to be a boycott proof product model; 7. And most importantly, there has to be lots of financial capital behind the sanctioning organization. Without those...:leaving:

[T2x]

And Rich ... I'll take the over. What are the stakes?

Dinner.......at Mike's house.

T2x

[Matt Trulio]

Ratickle,

I only meant I'll stay away from "real" (i.e. government) politics. Thanks for the kind words. I'm flattered.

[Matt Trulio]

Hey Rich,

If Mike is providing the food and drink, you're on. I think he'll make it worth the airfare from New Jersey.

Confidence is essential.

[Ratickle]

So far I have only a few suggestions.

One I would like to see, because it always seemed to work well for the military, a trimverat (sp?), of three for the dictator position. All three ex-racers or race promoters. Two out of three to make a change. Takes the single person bashing out of the picture. One less thing to defend. No one ever knows who voted how.

Just an idea.:)

[Mike A.]

Hey Rich,

If Mike is providing the food and drink, you're on. I think he'll make it worth the airfare from New Jersey.

Confidence is essential.

I will supply food and drink, however, I think a story should be written as well to expound on your recent piece, with a "what happened" and "what should happen now" theme.

[Mike A.]

So far I have only a few suggestions.

One I would like to see, because it always seemed to work well for the military, a trimverat (sp?), of three for the dictator position. All three ex-racers or race promoters. Two out of three to make a change. Takes the single person bashing out of the picture. One less thing to defend. No one ever knows who voted how.

Just an idea.:)

Will not work. There must be a single decision-maker.

[Ted]

Triumvirate.....

It should be 2 promotors and 1 racer.

[Brownie]

I was Offshore commissioner from 1967 to 69. I was a benevelent dictator, appointed my own commission, carried the message to Europe and coerced them into our thinking. Things were so smooth, that when I was taken ill in 1969, the motion to wish me a speedy recovery passed 6 to 5 here, and failed in the UIM............

[Ratickle]

I was Offshore commissioner from 1967 to 69. I was a benevelent dictator, appointed my own commission, carried the message to Europe and coerced them into our thinking. Things were so smooth, that when I was taken ill in 1969, the motion to wish me a speedy recovery passed 6 to 5 here, and failed in the UIM............

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

One of the funniest things I ever read.......

[T2x]

Matt,

IMHO we are not talking about politics here. These are the hard realities. If the brave remaining few truly want to set the sport back on the right path these realities have to be recognized and dealt with: 1. Certain people who have been constants as leaders of the sport for the past 20 + years have to be politely excluded from any future leadership positions of influence; 2. There has to be unification; 3. There has to be a dictator with strong support from a deep pocket BOD; 4. There has to be a single set of rules controlled by the dictator and his own people who are independent from the industry; 5. There has to be TV; 6. There has to be a boycott proof product model; 7. And most importantly, there has to be lots of financial capital behind the sanctioning organization. Without those...:leaving:

Agreed...........

Now let's build on this with a few questions and a road map:

1. The LLC contract with APBA is up in a couple of years. Does it have to be renewed? Or....can it be dissolved...and replaced with the old APBA Offshore Division?

2. If it is continued, does it have to carry the UIM sanction with it?

In either event the APBA/UIM needs to be the single overall sanctioning body for a number of reasons (legitamacy of World records and championships and connectivity with racers worldwide). With that said, SBI, OSS, OPA, and any other group would (and should)become extraneous and must either come under the APBA/UIM umbrella...or be dissolved. Right now SBI is controlling the APBA/UIM banner without any measureable return to the sport as a whole.

There is also an APBA "special events" sanctioning mechanism that I believe takes an event out of any other division's oversight. There is a chance that this could be used to sanction an entire offshore series. Certainly any of HORBA's proposed long distance races could fall under this.

Rules should be crafted to create a key major class and a very limited number of SIMPLE developmental/sportsman classes (ala major and minor league).

One group must be empowered to market and negotiate the major sponsor efforts. This will solve the "Background noise" which is and has been confusing and turning off potential backers who have been hounded repeatedly by every Tom, Dick and Harry racing group and race team for years.

Good stuff...

T2x

[T2x]

I was Offshore commissioner from 1967 to 69. I was a benevelent dictator, appointed my own commission, carried the message to Europe and coerced them into our thinking. Things were so smooth, that when I was taken ill in 1969, the motion to wish me a speedy recovery passed 6 to 5 here, and failed in the UIM............

I still wish you a speedy recovery......... Have the nice doctors decided when you can go out without a chaperone?

[Mike A.]

Agreed...........

Now let's build on this with a few questions and a road map:

1. The LLC contract with APBA is up in a couple of years. Does it have to be renewed? Or....can it be dissolved...and replaced with the old APBA Offshore Division?

2. If it is continued, does it have to carry the UIM sanction with it?

In either event the APBA/UIM needs to be the single overall sanctioning body for a number of reasons (legitamacy of World records and championships and connectivity with racers worldwide). With that said, SBI, OSS, OPA, and any other group would (and should)become extraneous and must either come under the APBA/UIM umbrella...or be dissolved. Right now SBI is controlling the APBA/UIM banner without any measureable return to the sport as a whole.

There is also an APBA "special events" sanctioning mechanism that I believe takes an event out of any other division's oversight. There is a chance that this could be used to sanction an entire offshore series. Certainly any of HORBA's proposed long distance races could fall under this.

Rules should be crafted to create a key major class and a very limited number of SIMPLE developmental/sportsman classes (ala major and minor league).

One group must be empowered to market and negotiate the major sponsor efforts. This will solve the "Background noise" which is and has been confusing and turning off potential backers who have been hounded repeatedly by every Tom, Dick and Harry racing group and race team for years.

Good stuff...

T2x

Rich,

I have no clue what the current license agreement looks like. Personally, I believe the UIM/APBA brands are virtually worthless today. If I were heading a new organization I would not spend a penny for either.

A NEWCO needs substantial start-up capital and a credible board of directors with a single, authoritarian CEO. There should be a single premier spec engine class, fast and affordable, and most importantly, controlled by NEWCO at least at the beginning. Cat or Vee, would not matter to me, although I think long term a v-bottom class would work best. I would also get rid of the two man teams. One person in the boat does it all.

The rest of the sport should be based on a very simple, run what you brung formula that looks like what OPA has now = the P classes from the LLC days. In other words, only one class with technical rules. KISS. NEWCO uses these classes to build a fan base, competitor base, industry sponsor base, and to put heads in beds at the events.

[GENERAL LEE]

I would also get rid of the two man teams. One person in the boat does it all.


I have ALWAYS thought that should be the absolute defining display of skill.

Two man race/poker run teams, with people that know nothing of how their counter party will react to ANY situation, is just a recipe for disaster. EVERYone thinks they're the "throttle-man", therefore they can control whatever mistakes the "driver" makes.

It's hardly different than putting on a cape and thinking you can jump out of your window & fly to safety.

[DAREDEVIL]

I have ALWAYS thought that should be the absolute defining display of skill.

Two man race/poker run teams, with people that know nothing of how their counter party will react to ANY situation, is just a recipe for disaster. EVERYone thinks they're the "throttle-man", therefore they can control whatever mistakes the "driver" makes.

It's hardly different than putting on a cape and thinking you can jump out of your window & fly to safety.



Actually ,i think if the team is "a TEAM " its not a problem ,,,,if i run my boat with my buddy Michael we can turn faster and run faster then i can by my self 100 %
We both trusst each other not just in the boat,,we been thru alot in the last 10+ years and are still real good friends "FRIENDS" thats the key.

He has my back i have his thats what its all about.

[THEJOKER]

I'll put up the 1st $ 100,000.00 for NEWCO....wait....too many zeros! $1.00 - ok that's more like it!:sifone:

[Steve Miklos]

There is only one way for the Sport to work. The foundation of revenue has to come from related manufacturers. You need three or more propulsion (Mercury, Ilmor, ?????). At least 3-5 hull manufacturers who can sell what is racing to non racers. You also need an NHRA style accessories sponsor program to help the small racers and get little widget companies on board.

Until you have a TV product that is entertaining and sustainable the rest is just burning cash for a hobby.


The reality is that outboards are where the propulsion marketing battle is fought and the weapon of choice appears to be a fishing pole.
Steve

[Ratickle]

The reality is that outboards are where the propulsion marketing battle is fought and the weapon of choice appears to be a fishing pole.
Steve


That is a very intriguing comment.......


The center console races before fishing tournaments are catching on currently. Outboard (X-Cat) is making huge increases in overseas markets. I believe our Stock Outboard Cats here are the exact same design and rules?

[DaveP]

I have to say....I have been involved in the sport since 1980 and the current discussion between Mike A., T2x and Matt has to be the most civil, well thought out and introspective discussion on the sport in many many many years.

All of them are correct in their assessments and the most incredible worlds I ever attended was the 2000 Worlds in St. Pete. 147 raceboats, 20 in F-2, 18 or 19 in F-1.
Formula there supporting their 8 teams with tents and supplies all lined up together.

That was a pretty incredible year.

The biggest issues that face the sport are:
1) Money (it takes alot of money to produce a race or series of races)
2) Unification (1 body with a benevolent dictator)
3) The fact that every 6-12 months a handful of racers get disgruntled and decided that they "can build a better mousetrap" and splinter off (OPT, Us Offshore, WPPA, OSS, Offshore Pro Series, ORL, etc...)

[DaveP]

Dinner.......at Mike's house.

T2x

I'll be the bartender :sifone:

[Ted]

Until you have a TV product that is entertaining and sustainable the rest is just burning cash for a hobby.



Steve


And the TV has to be driven and controlled by the sanctioning body, not the sponsor(s). And it has to be produced with the sole purpose of being engaging and entertaining. Only if it can pull ratings will it be a marketable product to sponsors.

[Mike A.]

And the TV has to be driven and controlled by the sanctioning body, not the sponsor(s). And it has to be produced with the sole purpose of being engaging and entertaining. Only if it can pull ratings will it be a marketable product to sponsors.

Ted,

Correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is that the TV program cannot be a single sponsor infomercial, right? Obviously, motorsports programming has to be sponsor driven to be successful. No sanctioning group can succeed by telling sponsors to give up their money and then go away. Sponsors must be included in the programming development end of the business. There is no avoiding that, however, that is different from allowing a sponsor to have a say in the competition model. The sanctioning body has to develop an exciting racing product to get ratings no doubt, but the value added to sponsors comes from commercials, features, billboards, etc. bearing their names.

[TCEd]

What if GEICO had choosen to take the money they put into the race team, boats and support vehicles and associated spending over the past few years and came forward as a series sponsor with one of the sanction bodies. Could something like that be a step towards building a strong single sanction body which would then absorb the others ?
ed

[Ted]

Ted,

Correct me if I am wrong but what you are saying is that the TV program cannot be a single sponsor infomercial, right? Obviously, motorsports programming has to be sponsor driven to be successful. No sanctioning group can succeed by telling sponsors to give up their money and then go away. Sponsors must be included in the programming development end of the business. There is no avoiding that, however, that is different from allowing a sponsor to have a say in the competition model. The sanctioning body has to develop an exciting racing product to get ratings no doubt, but the value added to sponsors comes from commercials, features, billboards, etc. bearing their names.

Right Mike, I'm not saying the sponsor should not have ads, mentions, whatever. But in the past few years several of the TV attempts were almost wholly sponsored by one sponsor that then exerted great pressure on the production and yes, made it an infomercial. My model would have a portion of the major sponsor's money devoted to the TV production, but no single TV sponsor, or even majority sponsor. A race cannot be announced properly if certain boat names cannot be mentioned, even when they are in the lead in their class. This in turn causes new people to be confused and old hands to be upset with the production and simply turn off the TV. Which defeats the whole purpose.

[Mike A.]

I'll be the bartender :sifone:

We could all meet at Miklos' house during the Clearwater race weekend. Just sayin'...:sifone:

[Steve Miklos]

There usually a party there anyway!

[Ted]

What if GEICO had choosen to take the money they put into the race team, boats and support vehicles and associated spending over the past few years and came forward as a series sponsor with one of the sanction bodies. Could something like that be a step towards building a strong single sanction body which would then absorb the others ?
ed

Most certainly. But it is hard to say where the sport would be right now without the huge support that GEICO and more importantly John Haggin has given ALL the sanctioning bodies. If a group/individual came along with a large amount of cash with a good business plan and a desire to control the entire sport as opposed to a team it is certainly possible. But they should not be associated with any specific race team and should make all decisions based on the good of the organization, not necessarily the good of any team or sponsor.

[OldSchool]

Right Mike, I'm not saying the sponsor should not have ads, mentions, whatever. But in the past few years several of the TV attempts were almost wholly sponsored by one sponsor that then exerted great pressure on the production and yes, made it an infomercial. My model would have a portion of the major sponsor's money devoted to the TV production, but no single TV sponsor, or even majority sponsor. A race cannot be announced properly if certain boat names cannot be mentioned, even when they are in the lead in their class. This in turn causes new people to be confused and old hands to be upset with the production and simply turn off the TV. Which defeats the whole purpose.

Fountain TV......I watched it because it was the only boat racing on TV!!!


.....other that jet swamp buggy boats, drag boats, bass boats and jet ski's!!!! How can they do it????

[Ratickle]

I have to say....I have been involved in the sport since 1980 and the current discussion between Mike A., T2x and Matt has to be the most civil, well thought out and introspective discussion on the sport in many many many years.

All of them are correct in their assessments and the most incredible worlds I ever attended was the 2000 Worlds in St. Pete. 147 raceboats, 20 in F-2, 18 or 19 in F-1.
Formula there supporting their 8 teams with tents and supplies all lined up together.

That was a pretty incredible year.

The biggest issues that face the sport are:
1) Money (it takes alot of money to produce a race or series of races)
2) Unification (1 body with a benevolent dictator)
3) The fact that every 6-12 months a handful of racers get disgruntled and decided that they "can build a better mousetrap" and splinter off (OPT, Us Offshore, WPPA, OSS, Offshore Pro Series, ORL, etc...)

What I'm trying to figure out, why were there 147 raceboats in St Pete in 2000?

What were the classes?
How many in each class?
How long had the rules been unchanged for each class?
What were the purses?
Who were the teams to beat?
etc.

I, (and probably others), are really tired of fighting/arguing about what went wrong.

What was right? In every strong era, what was right?????? That's what I really want to know, and I would really like to hear from everyones perspective who was involved in any way. You guys were there, I was watching.

I think we all would like to know. No "what went wrong", what was right?????

And Dave's right, we're learning from you guys and your discourse, keep teaching.

[Mike A.]

What if GEICO had choosen to take the money they put into the race team, boats and support vehicles and associated spending over the past few years and came forward as a series sponsor with one of the sanction bodies. Could something like that be a step towards building a strong single sanction body which would then absorb the others ?
ed

I do not know about GEICO, but I can assure you this: If Haggin had put his own money, or the GECIO money he secured, into a sanctioning organization rather than his team, boats, and support vehicles, he would not have had a fraction of the fun and would not be around today. That is an important point for the racers to understand.

Spending your own money as a sanctioning group owner so that others can enjoy themselves is only fun if there is a profitable exit strategy for the owner. Once it becomes clear that the exit strategy is hopeless no one in their right mind will continue to spend money just so others can have a place to race.

By analogy, once the deep pocket race team owner gets bored or is no longer having enough fun to justify the cost he quits. That has happened over and over again. It is great while it lasts, but it never lasts.

The big team promoter helps to keep the sport alive during its time, however, it does nothing for the long term health, let alone growth of the sport. For that you need a strong well capitalized sanctioning body. Otherwise, what you have is well, what you have.

[Matt Trulio]

Guys,

Intriguing stuff. But my initial point, "It is what it is and always will be what it is" stands, at least for me. Both Rich and Mike have seen the sport through its "peak" days. And even at its zenith, it was ... fringe. Either one of you care to disagree?

Now, that doesn't mean it can't find an audience, and we have cable television to thank for that. My god, I watched some nut job wrestle a huge python in a guano-filled cave the other day, and damn I was entertained. If you can package some kook rolling around in bat **** with a scary-big snake, you can package anything.

Just don't expect it to outdraw "American Idol" or "I Love New York" or "Flavor of Love."

As far as recreating the sanctioning body/promotional organization goes ... it needs to be a well-funded dictatorship, and not (all apologies, Brownie, now be a good buy and take your meds) benevolent. Rules need to be rules for everyone. No one in NASCAR tap-danced in delight when they changed from the SB-2 to the RO-7 engine. That made shops full of high-dollar small-blocks obsolete. But if you wanted to play, there was no choice. No grandfathering, no "Can't we wait another year?"

Having reread this thread, Mike, I have to say this: I think it's a mistake to point fingers at the "splinter group" for the LLC's demise. Granted, I think splinter groups are a mistake as they invariably become what they once despised. But if that many people were disenchanted ... like you said, people in business make mistakes. But as I'm sure you'll agree, a big part of business is managing personal relationships. If that many people went south on the LLC, maybe the LLC had a least some responsibility for their flight. Don't want to go tit for tat, but I think there's a degree of responsibility on the part of the LLC, in terms of creating the climate for that group to exist, that you're not owning.

On another note ...

At the time GM came on as a sponsor, I asked you during your Key West press conference how you thought that would fly with Mercury Racing. Seemed like an obvious question to me, but my colleagues in the press inexplicably lost their voices. You said, "How did I know YOU would ask that question?" And everyone in the room laughed.

It was a good moment.

But with Fountain and Mercury Racing gone as sponsors, for whatever reason (and likely we'll never agree on why and that's OK) the LLC was in deep trouble, and I'm not talking financially. (Those sponsorships, though decent for offshore racing, couldn't even come close to supporting a race-sanctioning business.) Perception and opinion were not working in the LLC's favor. Seems to me things went terminally south from there.

You always said I treated you fairly and respectfully. I appreciated that. Felt the same way. Just offering my take, from the outside. You were on the inside, and I respect that as well.

[GENERAL LEE]

Enough.

The fantastic small group of guys that have been nice enough to inform us of how it actually works, should be thanked by ANYONE that's read this thread. I can personally tell you guys that I've learned SO much from your time explaining the racing dynamic to us.

I can only hope that the idea itself improves, and I do honestly wish someone would get me in on supporting the cause myself. Whether it's monetary, or physical support, I'd love to do what I can to extend that "love" for offshore racing.

[Ratickle]

As far as recreating the sanctioning body/promotional organization goes ... it needs to be a well-funded dictatorship, and not (all apologies, Brownie, now be a good buy and take your meds) benevolent. Rules need to be rules for everyone. No one in NASCAR tap-danced in delight when they changed from the SB-2 to the RO-7 engine. That made shops full of high-dollar small-blocks obsolete. But if you wanted to play, there was no choice. No grandfathering, no "Can't we wait another year?"


Once again, small disagreement.

The teams and independant sponsors, who have left NASCAR and put it in it's worst shape in years, put a lot of the blame on the change to the new car and new engine They Had No Say In.

Those high dollar expenses they had built huge investments over the years in were, as you said, obsolete. Many teams went back to the trucks with their equipment, and now are leaving all together. Even last years truck champ has no sponsor. And you know what, the NASCAR dictators are saying it's because of the economy. But, the the results I've seen of the teams who are left (that I know) say their percentage of ROI for their advertising dollar is identical to last year in the trucks and way off on the cars. Why????

[Ratickle]

Whether it's monetary, or physical support, I'd love to do what I can to extend that "love" for offshore racing.

Maybe in a boat?????:sifone:

[Mike A.]

Guys,

Intriguing stuff. But my initial point, "It is what it is and always will be what it is" stands, at least for me. Both Rich and Mike have seen the sport through its "peak" days. And even at its zenith, it was ... fringe. Either one of you care to disagree?

Now, that doesn't mean it can't find an audience, and we have cable television to thank for that. My god, I watched some nut job wrestle a huge python in a guano-filled cave the other day, and damn I was entertained. If you can package some kook rolling around in bat **** with a scary-big snake, you can package anything.

Just don't expect it to outdraw "American Idol" or "I Love New York" or "Flavor of Love."

As far as recreating the sanctioning body/promotional organization goes ... it needs to be a well-funded dictatorship, and not (all apologies, Brownie, now be a good buy and take your meds) benevolent. Rules need to be rules for everyone. No one in NASCAR tap-danced in delight when they changed from the SB-2 to the RO-7 engine. That made shops full of high-dollar small-blocks obsolete. But if you wanted to play, there was no choice. No grandfathering, no "Can't we wait another year?"

Having reread this thread, Mike, I have to say this: I think it's a mistake to point fingers at the "splinter group" for the LLC's demise. Granted, I think splinter groups are a mistake as they invariably become what they once despised. But if that many people were disenchanted ... like you said, people in business make mistakes. But as I'm sure you'll agree, a big part of business is managing personal relationships. If that many people went south on the LLC, maybe the LLC had a least some responsibility for their flight. Don't want to go tit for tat, but I think there's a degree of responsibility on the part of the LLC, in terms of creating the climate for that group to exist, that you're not owning.

On another note ...

At the time GM came on as a sponsor, I asked you during your Key West press conference how you thought that would fly with Mercury Racing. Seemed like an obvious question to me, but my colleagues in the press inexplicably lost their voices. You said, "How did I know YOU would ask that question?" And everyone in the room laughed.

It was a good moment.

But with Fountain and Mercury Racing gone as sponsors, for whatever reason (and likely we'll never agree on why and that's OK) the LLC was in deep trouble, and I'm not talking financially. (Those sponsorships, though decent for offshore racing, couldn't even come close to supporting a race-sanctioning business.) Perception and opinion were not working in the LLC's favor. Seems to me things went terminally south from there.

You always said I treated you fairly and respectfully. I appreciated that. Felt the same way. Just offering my take, from the outside. You were on the inside, and I respect that as well.

Matt,

From the inside let me tell that by 2003 Offshore Racing, as produced by the LLC, was not a fringe sport. We had solid TV ratings on a network, SPEED, which had been taken over by Fox, and which had dumped virtually all of its other fringe programming including virtually all boating related shows. We were not NASCAR, but we were not swamp buggy racing either. In fact, we had shows on TNN that had bigger audiences than CART. When GM became the series sponsor, the second in command at the company - Bob Lutz, who is still there by the way, attended our Worlds to announce and endorse the partnership. And while you mentioned our brief exchange on the subject, you neglected to mention my explanation as to why GM's involvement was actually a good thing for Mercury in the long run: Because GM wanted to sell cars and trucks not marine engines. We communicated with Mercury Racing through the entire process but they simply operated according to their own business model and at the end of the day wanted nothing to do with a change in the status quo, regardless of the potential benefits to them. So they did what they did to help the boycotters along, and by the way, in violation of their own sponsorship contract.

As for Reggie, as you will recall, we had all the Fountain boats racing with us anyway and by the 2003 Milwaukee race he and I had buried the hatchet. We are on good speaking terms to this day.

As for the demise of the LLC, let me say this: We, the LLC members, pulled the plug. We did so after the boycott. Before the boycott, right after St. Pete, we entered into a written deal with several parties including Billy Mauf, that according to its clear and unambiguous terms set the sport's future course in terms of rules, engine builders, etc., and guaranteed all of the Super Cats and Lights would attend our Worlds. Unfortunately, all but one of the signing parties honored the terms of the agreement. That one person, Billy Mauf, joined with Teague, Abrams, Chastelet, Whittier, and a few others, in boycotting our Worlds. Mauf and his group's actions disgusted many people including several of their fellow racers who simply never came back again.

Even though Teague, Mauf, et al. took our rules and much of the LLC fleet went off on their own thinking they could do better, they failed, miserably. If they had not done that then we would probably still be around and the sport would most assuredly be better off than it is today.

I know, given your situation, that is not something you want to hear, and probably not something you have ever heard working where you work, but it is the truth. In short, I will never give those folks the cover they want by taking any responsibility for their actions. I/we/the LLC made mistakes but we did not cause the boycott. Period. The boycotters have to take full responsibility for what they did, and their ultimate failures as well. Oh, I forgot, they slithered off and left a few guys holding the bag.

[Mike A.]

Once again, small disagreement.

The teams and independant sponsors, who have left NASCAR and put it in it's worst shape in years, put a lot of the blame on the change to the new car and new engine They Had No Say In.

Those high dollar expenses they had built huge investments over the years in were, as you said, obsolete. Many teams went back to the trucks with their equipment, and now are leaving all together. Even last years truck champ has no sponsor. And you know what, the NASCAR dictators are saying it's because of the economy. But, the the results I've seen of the teams who are left (that I know) say their percentage of ROI for their advertising dollar is identical to last year in the trucks and way off on the cars. Why????

Exactly, and not coincidentally, the COT sucks and has led to a fall off in the ratings and fan base.

[GENERAL LEE]

Maybe in a boat?????:sifone:


Do you mean bringing a boat to the event/Shootout weekend? I think I'll bring the 368 for the weekend, but my current props are SOOO far from where they need to be, to even consider running the shootout. I'll represent elsewhere though! :coolgleamA:

[T2x]

I'll be the bartender :sifone:

It'll be an evening for the ages...as long as Mike and I aren't allowed to debate.... :D

[Mike A.]

It'll be an evening for the ages...as long as Mike and I aren't allowed to debate.... :D

Are you kidding? A debate would be the headline event!!!

[T2x]

What if GEICO had choosen to take the money they put into the race team, boats and support vehicles and associated spending over the past few years and came forward as a series sponsor with one of the sanction bodies. Could something like that be a step towards building a strong single sanction body which would then absorb the others ?
ed

Absolutely!...... But...what would then happen to their driving team, their truck drivers and their race crews....... not to mention Haggin himself?

You are better off with a real independent sponsor that is not attached to any existing racing people, but rather approaches the sport as a true marketing and business opportunity. There is already too much racing hardware sporting the Geico image. This would parallel trying to switch Dupont from backing Jeff Gordon's team to sponsoring the "Dupont Cup" Series...... too much conflict of interest IMHO.

One of the points that Mike nailed perfectly is the concept of eliminating all known politicos and hangers on from the new operation. Currently you have multiple referees, safety coordinators, inspectors, marketing people, and "presidents/chairmen" all jockeying to protect their ever decreasing fiefdoms. Like Congress, they all need to get the H*ll out. They have had their chance and basically failed to one degree or another. I don't doubt they have worked hard and in many cases thanklessly, but free airfare and expenses to all races, a taste of martinet power, and the habit of racing and officiating simultaneously has rendered most of them unworthy of further leadership roles. This will certainly p*ss off a lot of their loyal followers, but it is what it is....and it ain't what is needed.

I have always looked at people like Dave P and Steve David as the kind of folks who can run something in a cooperative and professional manner with the ability to listen to all, but still make the tough unilateral decisions based on fundamentally sound and unselfish logic. For that matter, let Trulio handle the PR. He would be great at it, as long as he doesn't wax too eloquently on the plight of the Manatee....or some other California granola stuff... :D :D :p

T2x

[T2x]

Are you kidding? A debate would be the headline event!!!

Yeah , but we're getting along so well, let's not push our luck.......:D

I envision a nice quiet evening in St Pete, with Trulio buying the Lobsters and Champagne while I gently remind him that the "under" was the better bet. Dave P will start the evening with some Tequila concoctions, and then we can all go inside to Mike's 164 inch Plasma TV and watch Steve David muscle the Miss Madison-O Boy Oberto-White Castle-AIG-Disney hydro to the Gold Cup Championship( renamed The "Michael Jackson Memorial Gold Cup of Hope" in 2011), which by then will be the last remaining boat race in the US.

[Mike A.]

Yeah , but we're getting along so well, let's not push our luck.......:D

I envision a nice quiet evening in St Pete, with Trulio buying the Lobsters and Champagne while I gently remind him that the "under" was the better bet.
Dave P will start the evening with some Tequila concoctions, and then we can all go inside to Mike's 164 inch Plasma TV and watch Steve David muscle the Miss Madison-O Boy Oberto-White Castle-AIG-Disney hydro to the Gold Cup Championship, which by then will be the last remaining boat race in the US.

67 inch.

[ApachePete]

This is a wonderful thread.

I've learned a lot.

Thanks!

Much more fun than taking on folks who only want to say that everything is OK, regardless of the facts.

[DaveP]

What I'm trying to figure out, why were there 147 raceboats in St Pete in 2000?

What were the classes?
How many in each class?
How long had the rules been unchanged for each class?
What were the purses?
Who were the teams to beat?
etc.

I, (and probably others), are really tired of fighting/arguing about what went wrong.

What was right? In every strong era, what was right??????

I think the concept of a stock Mercury 500hp (then EFI, then 525 EFI) in a twin (F-2) or Single (F-1) class open boat was the key to success for the boat counts. To have almost 40 boats between F-1 & F-2 in St. Pete was amazing...in just 2 classes. All of the boats were open boats (no canopies) and more or less were stock production boats (in the begining). Then many became "potato chip" race boats. For Formula to have raced and won many races (historically viewed upon as a well made but heavier slower boat) that was quite a statement there.

The F-1 & F-2 was as basic as racing got and was extremely competitive and the tech inspectors did their best to keep the playing field fair.

Checkbook racing gets old real quick. What is more impressive? A field of 12 36-40ft Cats with twin 750's chasing each other on the race course or 2 boats that run 180mph????

The other key to success are race sites that WELCOME the race and come up with the money to put the races on. Cities like Sarasota, Ft. Myers, Key West and other like them would turn their towns upside down for a race. Over the last few years, alot of the local businesses want a race but don't want to put the $$$ up to bring the show to town.

If all race sites were like St. Clair, MI...........the job of a sanctioning body would almost be easy. (well........never easy but a heck of alot easier!) :)

[NNRT]

This is a wonderful thread.

I've learned a lot.

Thanks!

Much more fun than taking on folks who only want to say that everything is OK, regardless of the facts.

You got that right Peter - !

[Ratickle]

Do you mean bringing a boat to the event/Shootout weekend? I think I'll bring the 368 for the weekend, but my current props are SOOO far from where they need to be, to even consider running the shootout. I'll represent elsewhere though! :coolgleamA:

I meant a raceboat someday soon :sifone:.

[Brownie]

I have reconsidered my position, and have decided that only path to success is to have an attorney run the whole goddam thing. After all, look what they are doing for congress..........

[Mike A.]

I have reconsidered my position, and have decided that only path to success is to have an attorney run the whole goddam thing. After all, look what they are doing for congress..........

Tried that once, but it did not work out.:26:

[DaveP]

Plus other eras where there were successful periods?

You gotta start somewhere.

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.

[salrcr42]

I am fairly new to this forum. although I have not written or comented much due to my ignorance compared to most of you, I feel compelled to write and thank all of you for your honesty and true personal reflections and opinions concerning the best for this sport. I have been watching, following and dreaming of offshore racing since the
mid 80's. I have seen teams try to make the sport "more profesional" and seen teams spend virtually millions of dollars of thier own money for the better of the sport. I will not go into my own reflections and opinions of the changes I started to notice by the end of the 80's and into the 90's. You all are very well aware of it I am sure. By following this thread from the beginning, I want to join ApachePete and the General and any others by thanking all of you who are laying it out there in this thread with your honest feelings. It has been most informative. This thread very well could be the biginning of helping create the Offshore Racing in knew back in the 80's (wishfull thinking I know, but its a start)

[FastDonzi]

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.

At least back then everyone ( Open class competitors) knew they where going to race agains another boat (cat or V) with two 500ci N/A motors and nobody complained about it. I think the racing back then at 100mph or less was more exciting than todays 120+ races. There was usually 4 or more boats battleing for the lead, now we can hardly get 4 boats in a class. and the good ol boy throttleman has been replaced by a rev limiter. soon, real soon the owner/driver will just wear a suit & Tie while driving the boat so when the race is over he can immidiatly jump out of his canopy go get his "World Champion" Trophy and look good doing it, then Haul across the state and get another "World Chamionship" Next weekend:cuss::kiss::seeya:

[Knot 4 Me]

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.HDNet was playing "Cocaine Cowboys" last night. Enlightens you on how unlimited the funds were in those days to throw at whatever hobby tickled your fancy.

[Ratickle]

But none of those guys were players at the 2000 Worlds with 147 boats there. They may have built the original model through unlimited funds out of their own pockets, but extremely successful eras ensued since. So there is no way to say that is the only reason for success in this sport.

[Knot 4 Me]

But none of those guys were players at the 2000 Worlds with 147 boats there. They may have built the original model through unlimited funds out of their own pockets, but extremely successful eras ensued since. So there is no way to say that is the only reason for success in this sport.True. In that era, I loved the factory classes. I remember watching those F-1 and F-2 boats and thinking, "hey, this is within reach if I really wanted to try it". That along with, "those crazy SOB's have brass ones", knowing that at any moment they could be tossed out of the boat.

[DaveP]

But none of those guys were players at the 2000 Worlds with 147 boats there. They may have built the original model through unlimited funds out of their own pockets, but extremely successful eras ensued since. So there is no way to say that is the only reason for success in this sport.

A successful era is not judged by boat count alone......Class 1 overseas has only a dozen boats but the whole race weekend is an amazing experience.

[TCEd]

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.

BINGO, there's a lot of truth in that statement. Same thing happened in IMSA racing.
ed

[Matt Trulio]

Mike,

As for where I work affecting "what I hear or what I want to hear," that's a double-edged sword. I've heard lots of things, from who led what to who stiffed who, over the years.

I act on none of it. More important, I write about none of it. Because I'm not interested in what I've heard. I'm interested in what I know and can substantiate. Being on "the inside," as indeed you were, doesn't make you unbiased or objective. It just makes you inside, most likely with an interest to protect. Nothing more.

I treated you fairly, reported what I could substantiate and left the rest to the rumor mill. It doesn't make me a hero, just ethical and I resent any implication, because of "where I work" that I was ever anything but. As you probably imagine, there were a whole bunch of people who were less than pleased with my profile of you and subsequent reporting of the rise and fall of the LLC. What you probably can't imagine? None of them ever worked with me.

You've dropped a lot of names of those "responsible" for the demise of the LLC. (For the record, I also think that splinter groups are doomed to fail because they invariably become what they once despised.) But I would think you would have to acknowledge at least some responsibility for alienating those people.

[cowisl]

Great thread...lets keep it moving forward

[NNRT]

An Idea that the Europeans did years ago, was to Charge each race team a fee - (something like $50,000.00) - that was to Guarantee they would show up for each and every race, at least to run over the start line - I think (not sure) it was returned at the end of the season. They also charged a fee - to each race team in advance - for TV - that way they knew the funds would be available for producing each event - In 1993 - I filmed for them, in their format, the Video had multiple cameras - at least 6 or more. Finished product was shown on RAI - the national TV of Italy. I would shoot the events - flying from London where my helicopter was based to each event - some as far away as Malta, which would require two days to get there, and two days to fly back to London - all for just about 90 minutes of filming. An unfortunate thing, I never got to see my own work, as soon as the event was over, I would hand over the Tape, pack up and leave to fly home. The Local Italian teams would do the post event coverage.

I have to thank People like Walter Ragazzi who belived in my work, and who won in Dubai - the grand title in 1992 which we filmed as well. If anyone knows how to locate Walter, please let me know.

Offshore Racing can be done and done well - in those days - you would have a Minimum of 24 OPEN boats - and the racing was as T2X would say - "bow handle to bow handle" - racers would group in groups of 5 or so - and the excitment was unbelievable - not like here in this country where its like a continous string of pearls running in a circle and no one knows what is happening.

Oh well - just a few ideas from a retired old videographer ! now back to your regular programing !

Phil
nnrt.films@verizon.net

[NNRT]

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.

Dave -

You are right - the money people were always there - think back to the 70s - just a group of guys -(sans uniforms and jump suits) - who never worried about paying bills - they ran for the fun of it - not for money - not for anything but fun - Doc Magoon, Bill Wishnick, Eddie LeCareau, Balesteri, and many more that seem to have skipped my mind - in those days - it was done for fun - and who cared about TV or promotion ! Maybe it should get back to that, and stop the wana bees ! It was a WALLET check then - ! you won if you paid the most and you bought the best talent - wont name names here, but they know who they are !

Phil

[Ratickle]

Where are those RAI tapes now? Do you know?

[GENERAL LEE]

I meant a raceboat someday soon :sifone:.

Oh yeah, that has always been something I'd like to do. It's going to have to get a little more structured before I would want to jump in with both feet and start a team of my own, but driving/throttling for another team right now is something I'd definitely do. :driving:

While I'd probably race ANY of the leagues that offered me a seat, racing Cat Lite or "X-Cat" would be the most fun I think. :coolgleamA:

[smokeybandit]

Dave -

You are right - the money people were always there - think back to the 70s - just a group of guys -(sans uniforms and jump suits) - who never worried about paying bills - they ran for the fun of it - not for money - not for anything but fun - Doc Magoon, Bill Wishnick, Eddie LeCareau, Balesteri, and many more that seem to have skipped my mind - in those days - it was done for fun - and who cared about TV or promotion ! Maybe it should get back to that, and stop the wana bees ! It was a WALLET check then - ! you won if you paid the most and you bought the best talent - wont name names here, but they know who they are !

Phil

After reading the whole thread, you just summed up the whole thing perfectly. We raced because we loved it. And we raced to win. Thank god my father had a big checkbook back then. It was never about who was watching or how many people would see us on TV. Who gives a crap what you look like in the pits. D'Elia never had a gorgeous rig but he would go out and win. Copeland had the nicest rig, but Morales, whose boat was plain white, would go out there and kick Al's butt. And that really ****ed Al off. Offshore racing is no longer about competition. It's about the show.

By the way, I thought Matt's article was spot on.

[Ratickle]

Oh yeah, that has always been something I'd like to do. It's going to have to get a little more structured before I would want to jump in with both feet and start a team of my own, but driving/throttling for another team right now is something I'd definitely do. :driving:

While I'd probably race ANY of the leagues that offered me a seat, racing Cat Lite or "X-Cat" would be the most fun I think. :coolgleamA:

Now you're talking......:26: :03: :26:

It's a blast, and I'm with you. There are a lot of teams on the sidelines right now for mostly the same reasons. Hopefully we're all learning something from this dialogue with those who have been there, done that from every perspective.

[salrcr42]

Myself as well. I have had a vision/mission ever since the 80's.
I only hope when and if I am able to, I can shake hands with you guys, be apart of something great (not just ok) pat you on the back, and look forward to feeling like we acomplished the un-acomplishable.
This sport is way to impressive to give up on. Thank you guys for not giving up.
Is it possible that a new organization (completely new) needs to be formed with a new name due to much bad blood and "poor tastes in the mouth" from all prior and exsisting orgs.?
I am assuming that could be a message here?
I also believe in term "going back to basics" I have heard alot of talk and writing about Offshore trying to "be like Nascar" (wasnt going to even bring that word up) thats like comparing apples and oranges. (apples and bananas really)
maybe offshore racing should try to be like offshore racing. there maybe a few lessons to be had from other race series such as FIA. maybe some kind of "concorde" agreement between teams as has been mentioned here. NO organization is perfect, its realizing it and moving forward that important. I am seeing that here.

[Mike A.]

A big part of the success in the 80's was the unlimited cash from a few drug kingpins (Magluta, Falcon, Morales, Kramer), chicken kingpin (Copeland), and a few with questionable means (Ippolito) that made the show rolling into town an incredible sight to see. They would bring multiple boats, cars, bikes, helos, yachts and lots more.....

So today, if you multiplied Haggin x 6 you would see a similar scenario.

Dave,

You are so right. My family raced from 1973-1978 and the principal reason my father pulled out was because it really was not a place for families to be anymore. It got really scary and carried on through the 1980's. In my second year of law school at Miami in 1987 I went to KW to visit with some folks who used to be part of my dad's open boat crew. I saw some things on the dock and dry pits that day that really scared the hell out of me. I did not go to another race until 1996

[salrcr42]

Dave,

You are so right. My family raced from 1973-1978 and the principal reason my father pulled out was because it really was not a place for families to be anymore. It got really scary and carried on through the 1980's. In my second year of law school at Miami in 1987 I went to KW to visit with some folks who used to be part of my dad's open boat crew. I saw some things on the dock and dry pits that day that really scared the hell out of me. I did not go to another race until 1996
I would like to think those days are long gone.............

[Matt Trulio]

Guys,

I said this earlier but I need to say it again: There were many things APBA Offshore LLC did that were very, very right. The 2000 Worlds were the best, far and away, that I ever attended. Great boats, great racing, tons of sponsors, great energy. The TV package was good ... and getting better. Sure, the Factory classes were born under Gene Whipp, but the LLC did a great job maintaining their momentum. The Super Cat and Super Cat Light classes were fantastic.

During the 2000 Worlds on Saturday night (if memory serves), there was a concert by some new male teen sensation we'd probably all hate, but our adolescent daughters would love. The LLC was wisely taking a page from the UIM Class 1 book in making the worlds "bigger" than an offshore race. That was smart as hell.

For better or worse, whatever you or I think, the LLC approached the sport as a business. And here is the one thing I think everyone who has posted on this thread will agree on: If offshore racing is to have a resurgence and succeed, there's no other way to approach it.

Last, I received a couple of emails from a few of you on here urging me to keep things polite and civil. If I came across in my last post as anything less than that, all apologies.

[Mike A.]

Mike,

As for where I work affecting "what I hear or what I want to hear," that's a double-edged sword. I've heard lots of things, from who led what to who stiffed who, over the years.

I act on none of it. More important, I write about none of it. Because I'm not interested in what I've heard. I'm interested in what I know and can substantiate. Being on "the inside," as indeed you were, doesn't make you unbiased or objective. It just makes you inside, most likely with an interest to protect. Nothing more.

I treated you fairly, reported what I could substantiate and left the rest to the rumor mill. It doesn't make me a hero, just ethical and I resent any implication, because of "where I work" that I was ever anything but. As you probably imagine, there were a whole bunch of people who were less than pleased with my profile of you and subsequent reporting of the rise and fall of the LLC. What you probably can't imagine? None of them ever worked with me.

You've dropped a lot of names of those "responsible" for the demise of the LLC. (For the record, I also think that splinter groups are doomed to fail because they invariably become what they once despised.) But I would think you would have to acknowledge at least some responsibility for alienating those people.

Matt,

You are being too sensitive, probably because the written word is much easier to misconstrue than a face to face discussion so let me clear some things up so that this thread can stay on track.

1. I have never claimed to be objective or unbiased in my commentary about the demise of offshore racing and the LLC. Nevertheless, the things I said about Teague, Whittier, Chastelet, Mauf, et al. and what they did are irrefutable facts. At least in so far as Mauf signed a document and then betrayed everyone else who signed it by going against it without notice or explanation. The others were OSS founders.

2. It goes without saying that the people who I blame for sinking the sport would say bad things about me. One of the major issues I had with many of those people, however, is they never had the courage to speak their minds to my face or publicly. Much of what they said and did was behind the scenes where they could not be challenged. That certainly was not a complaint anyone had against me. To the contrary, much of their beef was that I was too in your face and if I called you out in private I did it in public as well. In fact I did that to many people who did not join the boycott.

3. I never questioned your objectivity in writing about the sport, then or now, and never would. You are a gentleman journalist and always treated me fairly. I am also not surprised you took heat for reporting the facts fairly. Afterall, some of that reporting painted me in a decent light which did not square with the agenda of those who were giving you grief, again, behind the scenes. I got hammered plenty by you, Eric, and Terry over the years but I never complained because unlike the others who were screaming in your ears I respected that you all were reporting the facts as you gleaned them. In other words, you were doing your jobs.

4. As for taking responsibility for alienating the named boycotters who are largely responsible for the sport's current state, let me just say this: NEVER. The whole "alienation", "hurt feelings", deal is nothing more than these weasels' excuse for their own behavior. Many of them want to justify their actions and the severe damage they caused to the sport and to many of those who followed them over the cliff so they blame me. "He treated us sooooooo bad we had no other choice. He made us do it. Booo Hoooo. Waaaa Waaaa." Growing up we had a name for people like that: "Fruits".

People **** each other off every day, rightly or wrongly, intentionally or unintentionally. Among honorable men, however, that does not usually lead to the kind of split that happened in this case. Did I **** any of the boycotters off? Sure, taking away the powers of certain vendors who had managed to put themselves in official positions as rule makers, inspectors, etc. which greatly enhanced their personal wealth; publicly suspending high profile people for detrimental conduct which they had gotten away with for years; and leveling the playing field to increase competition to the detriment of others who had enjoyed the fruits of an unlevel field for so long they had developed a sense of entitlement, ****ed some boycotters off.

But make no mistake Matt, there was NO legitimate reason or excuse for their actions and as long as I have a breath in me I will NEVER give them cover. Look at the state of the sport at the time of the boycott and look at it now. Tell me why they boycotted and formed OSS again? Who benefitted? Who suffered?

To bring the thread back around I will close with this message to the new guys who are following this discussion: No matter what happens, or how bad things seem to be, NEVER participate in a boycott and never follow a splinter group. Do what it takes within the existing system to make it better. Do not fall for anyone who claims they will make it bigger and better for you if you will only follow them. They have an agenda, a selfish and hidden one no doubt designed to serve their interest not yours. Their promise of greener pastures is invariably an empty one. Strive for unification and once achieved keep it together.

[Ratickle]

To bring the thread back around I will close with this message to the new guys who are following this thread: No matter what happens, or how bad things seem to be, NEVER participate in a boycott and never follow a splinter group. Do what it takes within the existing system to make it better. Do not fall for anyone who claims they will make it bigger and better for you if you will only follow them. They have an agenda, a selfish and hidden one no doubt designed to serve their interest not yours. Their promise of greener pastures is invariably an empty one. Strive for unification and once achieved keep it together.

Thanks Mike, the good things you bring to the table are appreciated a whole bunch. Hopefully, the spirit of continual improvement from where we are now will push everyone to give their best, positive input.

[Matt Trulio]

Do check out the post right above this one. As I said, APBA Offshore LLC (you and the entire group) did many, many things right.

Also, to the credit of all the LLC investors ... they invested. Sounds obvious, right? But putting money on the line for something like this, something that has never been run successfully as a business in its entire history, takes, well, balls.

As for the rest, I can live with agreeing to disagree (and not on all of it ... as offshore racing history has shown, splinter groups never work). As for unification, wow, I don't hold out much hope, other than to hope I'm wrong.

[NNRT]

Where are those RAI tapes now? Do you know?

Sorry Paul - have no idea - Maybe if some one gets in touch with Walter Ragazzi, he may know - all efforts of mine to contact him have failed -

Rob -

good hearing from you - again - that was when people raced and did not care about if it was filmed or not - it was just for fun !

[Ratickle]

I'll see what I can find out. Maybe Martin has some contacts over there he can check with.

And, not being on TV is not an option. How can I become a world renowned super-star like you guys if there's no TV? :sifone:

[FastDonzi]

I'll see what I can find out. Maybe Martin has some contacts over there he can check with.

And, not being on TV is not an option. How can I become a world renowned super-star like you guys if there's no TV? :sifone:


If the whole "Boat Racing"thing doesn't work out for you, there's always Porn:03:

[WHEELMAN]

There is nothing like watching a NNRT tape with real offshore racing cats vs vees. watching these tapes made you feel like you were in the race. It wasn't always about who won but finishing to earn points for the national championship. Teams took pride in the sport.

[1waterboy1]

I think the concept of a stock Mercury 500hp (then EFI, then 525 EFI) in a twin (F-2) or Single (F-1) class open boat was the key to success for the boat counts. To have almost 40 boats between F-1 & F-2 in St. Pete was amazing...in just 2 classes. All of the boats were open boats (no canopies) and more or less were stock production boats (in the begining). Then many became "potato chip" race boats. For Formula to have raced and won many races (historically viewed upon as a well made but heavier slower boat) that was quite a statement there.

The F-1 & F-2 was as basic as racing got and was extremely competitive and the tech inspectors did their best to keep the playing field fair.

Checkbook racing gets old real quick. What is more impressive? A field of 12 36-40ft Cats with twin 750's chasing each other on the race course or 2 boats that run 180mph????

The other key to success are race sites that WELCOME the race and come up with the money to put the races on. Cities like Sarasota, Ft. Myers, Key West and other like them would turn their towns upside down for a race. Over the last few years, alot of the local businesses want a race but don't want to put the $$$ up to bring the show to town.

If all race sites were like St. Clair, MI...........the job of a sanctioning body would almost be easy. (well........never easy but a heck of alot easier!) :)

Excellent points Dave....I agree 100%

Mark H.
PS-See you Sunday!

[THEJOKER]

Excellent points Dave....I agree 100%

Mark H.
PS-See you Sunday!


Bingo!

[Ratickle]

Dave,

You are so right. My family raced from 1973-1978 and the principal reason my father pulled out was because it really was not a place for families to be anymore. It got really scary and carried on through the 1980's. In my second year of law school at Miami in 1987 I went to KW to visit with some folks who used to be part of my dad's open boat crew. I saw some things on the dock and dry pits that day that really scared the hell out of me. I did not go to another race until 1996

Someday I hope to have a few drinks and hear the rest of that story from you....

[DaveP]

Someday I hope to have a few drinks and hear the rest of that story from you....

If you want some great stories from the 80's.....

Brownie, T2x, Phil Lewis, Richie Powers, Bob Saccenti and others from that era have awesome stories.

I liked Bobby's story about a "visitor" from NY that showed up on his doorstep one night in Miami. I could tell you more......but I'd have to kill you :sifone:

[NNRT]

There is nothing like watching a NNRT tape with real offshore racing cats vs vees. watching these tapes made you feel like you were in the race. It wasn't always about who won but finishing to earn points for the national championship. Teams took pride in the sport.

Thank you !

It was a TEAM effort - Pilot, Narrator - plus a little editing with the sound turned off (heard it once before already).

btw - do I know you - ?

Phil
nnrt.films@verizon.net

[catastrophe]

One of the best threads I've read through. Thanks to you all.:)

[Ratickle]

If you want some great stories from the 80's.....

Brownie, T2x, Phil Lewis, Richie Powers, Bob Saccenti and others from that era have awesome stories.

I liked Bobby's story about a "visitor" from NY that showed up on his doorstep one night in Miami. I could tell you more......but I'd have to kill you :sifone:

There are a lot of those stories that never get told except over drinks. Quite a few drinks are required first I hear.........:sifone:

[DaveP]

A story from Brownie from another website:

"About 25 years ago, I was officiating the 'Cougar Cub' World Championships in Key West. We were all there for the Worlds, with all the 3 and 4 engine boats. On the off day, we held the Cub championship. Most all the teams had one painted up just like the big boat. Toward the end of the day, someone brought us a box of chicken and some beer. We put it on the hood of the nearest car, and continued to watch the heat races. Up comes Al, and says "What the f**k is that KFC doing on the hood of my car??????? He swooped it off with one hand, jumped in his Agusta Bell 109 chooper, flew to Miami, and brought back a chopper load of Popeye's for everyone."

The good ole days! :)

[DaveP]

Another great Copeland Story from back in the day compliments of T2x from another site:

"Early 90's and the level of excitement at the Key West World's had definitely faded from the "glory days"..... The bars were quiet and the streets half empty. A favorite hangout of the true racers was always the beach bar in the Pier House..... We were sitting there one evening with about a half dozen people lamenting the fact that in past years there was always so many more people at the place, when Copeland and his entourage showed up...... at about Midnight. Al yelled "Where's the PARTY?" and proceeded to settle in and join the B.S. Within maybe 15 minutes the place was crowded almost to the old levels. Al was eyeing a baseball hat with a blond ponytail sticking out the back that I had found in some dive on Duvall Street. He wanted to buy it for $100 and I declined the offer. Later he spotted a young couple who had been sitting off by themselves. After a few questions, he found out that they were newlyweds enjoying their honeymoon. Now let me state that these were a couple of clean cut midwest kids who had nothing to do with Al, the races or anything beyond being in a place they had dreamed of probably for years. After a few more questions it became clear that these were very simple people who were more than a little overwhelmed by Al and his approach. Al turns to the rest of us and says "How much you wanna bet , I can get her ( the young bride) to dance topless on a table within 15 minutes?".........

Within what seemed seconds the betting had swelled to about $15,000.....and my hat. Anyone sitting there could not possibly have pictured this simple homegrown young bride doing anything but slapping him in the face.

After all the bets were in, I can't recall who held the pot
............maybe Dave Gilmore........ Al proceeded to have a quiet conversation with the young couple. As we watched, both the bride and the groom looked at times angry, shocked, confused, upset, desperate.......and then, suddenly, they seemed to change. The husband began to talk in a plaintive way to his wife, she giggled a little, and responded hesitantly but then with some enthusiasm.

Bottom line the next thing we know....she's up on the table......topless and dancing to beat the band....(stereo actually).

After this display Al walks over to them has a quick word and they walk away...."Thanking" us all.....???????

Al came back and took the cash...and my hat..... and explained. .......

He split the pot with them and they wound up with $10,000 for a deposit on a house they were saving for..... The 10 grand put them over the top.

Like Barnum....Copeland had a grasp of the human condition and was the supreme hustler....."

[T2x]

67 inch.

Understood...but 5 years from now how big will it be? :D

[T2x]

I have reconsidered my position, and have decided that only path to success is to have an attorney run the whole goddam thing. After all, look what they are doing for congress..........

You crack me up...........

[T2x]

I have seen teams try to make the sport "more profesional" and seen teams spend virtually millions of dollars of thier own money for the better of the sport.

Do not automatically mix the terms "teams spending millions of their own money" and "for the good of the sport". These terms can be (and often have been) mutually exclusive.

T2x

[T2x]

But none of those guys were players at the 2000 Worlds with 147 boats there. They may have built the original model through unlimited funds out of their own pockets, but extremely successful eras ensued since. So there is no way to say that is the only reason for success in this sport.

The 2000 Worlds fleet was heavily fueled by big boat and engine manufacturers supporting Factory racing and spec engine classes, as well as Dot.com money. Unfortunately the ROI for companies like Formula, Donzi, Fountain, et al was not sustainable and the Dot.com bubble burst.

IMHO We need a non marine products based sponsor (insurance co, American Express, Verizon etc) preferably with a global market presence as a key sponsor for the series.

T2x

[T2x]

Guys,

I said this earlier but I need to say it again: There were many things APBA Offshore LLC did that were very, very right. The 2000 Worlds were the best, far and away, that I ever attended. Great boats, great racing, tons of sponsors, great energy. The TV package was good ... and getting better. Sure, the Factory classes were born under Gene Whipp, but the LLC did a great job maintaining their momentum. The Super Cat and Super Cat Light classes were fantastic.

During the 2000 Worlds on Saturday night (if memory serves), there was a concert by some new male teen sensation we'd probably all hate, but our adolescent daughters would love. The LLC was wisely taking a page from the UIM Class 1 book in making the worlds "bigger" than an offshore race. That was smart as hell.

For better or worse, whatever you or I think, the LLC approached the sport as a business. And here is the one thing I think everyone who has posted on this thread will agree on: If offshore racing is to have a resurgence and succeed, there's no other way to approach it.

Last, I received a couple of emails from a few of you on here urging me to keep things polite and civil. If I came across in my last post as anything less than that, all apologies.

Matt:

You were not impolite in any way. I don't know who sent the emails but if this thread is to have any integrity....tell them to stick it.

P.S. To those who sent the emails: Please send some to me so I can politely ignore them.

T2x

[T2x]

Dave,

You are so right. My family raced from 1973-1978 and the principal reason my father pulled out was because it really was not a place for families to be anymore. It got really scary and carried on through the 1980's. In my second year of law school at Miami in 1987 I went to KW to visit with some folks who used to be part of my dad's open boat crew. I saw some things on the dock and dry pits that day that really scared the hell out of me. I did not go to another race until 1996

Sissy.......... :p

[T2x]

Matt,

To bring the thread back around I will close with this message to the new guys who are following this discussion: No matter what happens, or how bad things seem to be, NEVER participate in a boycott and never follow a splinter group. Do what it takes within the existing system to make it better. Do not fall for anyone who claims they will make it bigger and better for you if you will only follow them. They have an agenda, a selfish and hidden one no doubt designed to serve their interest not yours. Their promise of greener pastures is invariably an empty one. Strive for unification and once achieved keep it together.

That is probably the best point made in this whole thread.

T2x

[Mike A.]

Do not automatically mix the terms "teams spending millions of their own money" and "for the good of the sport". These terms can be (and often have been) mutually exclusive.

T2x

Bingo.

[Mike A.]

The 2000 Worlds fleet was heavily fueled by big boat and engine manufacturers supporting Factory racing and spec engine classes, as well as Dot.com money. Unfortunately the ROI for companies like Formula, Donzi, Fountain, et al was not sustainable and the Dot.com bubble burst.

IMHO We need a non marine products based sponsor (insurance co, American Express, Verizon etc) preferably with a global market presence as a key sponsor for the series.

T2x

Like GM? Uuuuh, ooops. :leaving:

[Mike A.]

Sissy.......... :p

Obsolete old fart.:26:

[T2x]

Another great Copeland Story from back in the day compliments of T2x from another site:

"Early 90's and the level of excitement at the Key West World's had definitely faded from the "glory days"..... The bars were quiet and the streets half empty. A favorite hangout of the true racers was always the beach bar in the Pier House..... We were sitting there one evening with about a half dozen people lamenting the fact that in past years there was always so many more people at the place, when Copeland and his entourage showed up...... at about Midnight. Al yelled "Where's the PARTY?" and proceeded to settle in and join the B.S. Within maybe 15 minutes the place was crowded almost to the old levels. Al was eyeing a baseball hat with a blond ponytail sticking out the back that I had found in some dive on Duvall Street. He wanted to buy it for $100 and I declined the offer. Later he spotted a young couple who had been sitting off by themselves. After a few questions, he found out that they were newlyweds enjoying their honeymoon. Now let me state that these were a couple of clean cut midwest kids who had nothing to do with Al, the races or anything beyond being in a place they had dreamed of probably for years. After a few more questions it became clear that these were very simple people who were more than a little overwhelmed by Al and his approach. Al turns to the rest of us and says "How much you wanna bet , I can get her ( the young bride) to dance topless on a table within 15 minutes?".........

Within what seemed seconds the betting had swelled to about $15,000.....and my hat. Anyone sitting there could not possibly have pictured this simple homegrown young bride doing anything but slapping him in the face.

After all the bets were in, I can't recall who held the pot
............maybe Dave Gilmore........ Al proceeded to have a quiet conversation with the young couple. As we watched, both the bride and the groom looked at times angry, shocked, confused, upset, desperate.......and then, suddenly, they seemed to change. The husband began to talk in a plaintive way to his wife, she giggled a little, and responded hesitantly but then with some enthusiasm.

Bottom line the next thing we know....she's up on the table......topless and dancing to beat the band....(stereo actually).

After this display Al walks over to them has a quick word and they walk away...."Thanking" us all.....???????

Al came back and took the cash...and my hat..... and explained. .......

He split the pot with them and they wound up with $10,000 for a deposit on a house they were saving for..... The 10 grand put them over the top.

Like Barnum....Copeland had a grasp of the human condition and was the supreme hustler....."

Let me set the scene for another tale from the crypt....................

Mid 80's................. same bar, different (earlier) year. The partying had gone on for hours fueled by a stream of cash from a couple of the high profile "funny money" teams...actually one in particular. Sitting on a stool drinking heavily and eerily silent for almost the entire night was a world renowned, highly talented engine builder, who shall remain nameless (We shall call him "Keith" for purposes of anonymity :D). "Keith" was holding the purse strings for a race team he was part of at that time (also nameless but carrying the image of a Native American Tribe :p). Aside from an occasional sloppy giggle/belch he had uttered not a word all evening as he perched seemingly in his own little world. The night was waning, and while he slowly and carefully paid the bar tab for about 100 people who had come (and gone)all night long, he suddenly began to speak.

In a very quiet voice he asked a simple question of the assembled racers, announcers, builders, riggers and other assorted riff raff, all of whom fell into a hushed silence............

"Why do you wrap hamsters in electrical tape?" whispered the notoriously shy, semi reclusive, engineering genius and builder of the greatest, most respected (and expensive) race engines in the world.

The crowd, eager for any tidbit of knowledge that the rarely heard maestro might dispense, all replied in drunken harmony: " I dunno."

Upon hearing this, "Keith's" eyes seemed to twinkle and he muttered: "To keep them from exploding when you f*ck em!"

With that he looked around, took a step off his stool, and passed out on the floor.

What was Offshore racing like in the 80's you ask?

That about sums it up.

T2x

[Ratickle]

No comment.....:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[T2x]

Obsolete old fart.:26:

My dear Esquire

That's Mister Obsolete Old Fart to you........

[Brownie]

I was that young girl......................

[smokeybandit]

It's not offshore racing, but Tim Richmond's story pretty much sums up racing in the 80's.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/cup/columns/story?columnist=hinton_ed&id=4394325

[T2x]

I was that young girl......................

No you weren't, but she probably wound up in your room shortly thereafter.

[Steve Miklos]

An Idea that the Europeans did years ago, was to Charge each race team a fee - (something like $50,000.00) - that was to Guarantee they would show up for each and every race, at least to run over the start line - I think (not sure) it was returned at the end of the season. They also charged a fee - to each race team in advance - for TV - that way they knew the funds would be available for producing each event - In 1993 - I filmed for them, in their format, the Video had multiple cameras - at least 6 or more. Finished product was shown on RAI - the national TV of Italy. I would shoot the events - flying from London where my helicopter was based to each event - some as far away as Malta, which would require two days to get there, and two days to fly back to London - all for just about 90 minutes of filming. An unfortunate thing, I never got to see my own work, as soon as the event was over, I would hand over the Tape, pack up and leave to fly home. The Local Italian teams would do the post event coverage.

I have to thank People like Walter Ragazzi who belived in my work, and who won in Dubai - the grand title in 1992 which we filmed as well. If anyone knows how to locate Walter, please let me know.

Offshore Racing can be done and done well - in those days - you would have a Minimum of 24 OPEN boats - and the racing was as T2X would say - "bow handle to bow handle" - racers would group in groups of 5 or so - and the excitment was unbelievable - not like here in this country where its like a continous string of pearls running in a circle and no one knows what is happening.

Oh well - just a few ideas from a retired old videographer ! now back to your regular programing !

Phil
nnrt.films@verizon.net

Good point. We floated that with Supercat. When we had 18 teams I proposed we limited it 10. The first 10 to commit to the season and put a up a bond. To get into Supercat you would have to buy a team making it worth more then the equipment. If you decided to increase the number of teams the existing group of boats benefited from a cash payout. It was not well received.
Steve

[Ratickle]

When Supercat was that large, why?

And why would it need to be limited?

[FastDonzi]

A story from Brownie from another website:

"About 25 years ago, I was officiating the 'Cougar Cub' World Championships in Key West. We were all there for the Worlds, with all the 3 and 4 engine boats. On the off day, we held the Cub championship. Most all the teams had one painted up just like the big boat. Toward the end of the day, someone brought us a box of chicken and some beer. We put it on the hood of the nearest car, and continued to watch the heat races. Up comes Al, and says "What the f**k is that KFC doing on the hood of my car??????? He swooped it off with one hand, jumped in his Agusta Bell 109 chooper, flew to Miami, and brought back a chopper load of Popeye's for everyone."

The good ole days! :)


I was there for that, True Story.

[Steve Miklos]

When Supercat was that large, why?

And why would it need to be limited?

2001 it was that large. It needed to be limited because history tells us it will not stay that size. If you limit it and make the team a valuable asset you may actually have 10 big cats racing each other at every race for several years.
steve

[Ratickle]

Thanks, kinda like 42 NASCAR qualifyers. Would that model, or the Unlimited Heats model accomplish the same thing?

[Eaton Photos]

Let me set the scene for another tale from the crypt....................

Mid 80's................. same bar, different (earlier) year. The partying had gone on for hours fueled by a stream of cash from a couple of the high profile "funny money" teams...actually one in particular. Sitting on a stool drinking heavily and eerily silent for almost the entire night was a world renowned, highly talented engine builder, who shall remain nameless (We shall call him "Keith" for purposes of anonymity :D). "Keith" was holding the purse strings for a race team he was part of at that time (also nameless but carrying the image of a Native American Tribe :p). Aside from an occasional sloppy giggle/belch he had uttered not a word all evening as he perched seemingly in his own little world. The night was waning, and while he slowly and carefully paid the bar tab for about 100 people who had come (and gone)all night long, he suddenly began to speak.

In a very quiet voice he asked a simple question of the assembled racers, announcers, builders, riggers and other assorted riff raff, all of whom fell into a hushed silence............

"Why do you wrap hamsters in electrical tape?" whispered the notoriously shy, semi reclusive, engineering genius and builder of the greatest, most respected (and expensive) race engines in the world.

The crowd, eager for any tidbit of knowledge that the rarely heard maestro might dispense, all replied in drunken harmony: " I dunno."

With that, "Keith's" eyes seemed to twinkle and he muttered: "To keep them from exploding when you f*ck em!"

With that he looked around, took a step off his stool, and passed out on the floor.

What was Offshore racing like in the 80's you ask?

That about sums it up.

T2x

This story & the story about the Newlyweds, are unique & enjoyable to read.

I am a new member, to the forum. I've learned quite a bit, from reading the previous 10 pages, in this thread. The knowledge that has been shared so far, is just amazing & very insightful. Will definitely keep watching this thread. Thank you to everyone for the input/ sharing knowledge, thus far.

James

[Fast Shafts]

Jim,
It was nice meeting you at the St. Clair race. In spite of alot on this thread, most of us still have a great time racing!!! I'm sure in 20 years, I'll be telling everyone how great it was 'back then".:sifone:
Bob G. 606 Lock'd Up Racing

[Matt Trulio]

Duct tape, huh? Does that really work with hamsters?

I'm just asking. I am, after all, a very serious, self-important journalist.

Point of clarification: There was no "dotcom" money influx to offshore racing, because folks ... none of the dotcoms were making any money from 1999 to 2001. What actually burst, was a stock market speculation bubble, most particularly the NASDAQ, that dotcoms would EVENTUALLY make money. Never happened.

The money that fueled the dotcoms was all, and I mean all, venture capital. None of it, and I mean none, was generated by the dotcoms. Trust me, and I mean trust me, I was at dotcom ground zero in those heady, whacky (i.e. stupid and wasteful) days.

On a (somewhat) more serious note: Limiting availability (i.e. field size of a class) can actually create demand. The idea Steve Miklos mentioned is a very good one.

Last, and I think you guys will hate me for this: I think the "for the good of the sport" notion is quaint and lovely and all that—and total rubbish. If you want offshore racing to succeed, make it "for the good of the organizers' and racers' pocketbooks."

It should be approached in true Michael Corleone fashion, that being, "It's business. Just business."

[Ratickle]

If you want offshore racing to succeed, make it "for the good of the organizers' and racers' pocketbooks."

That might work behind the scenes, but as a marketing scheme logo/slogan, not so sure........:sifone:

[Dude! Sweet!]

Point of clarification: There was no "dotcom" money influx to offshore racing, because folks ... none of the dotcoms were making any money from 1999 to 2001. What actually burst, was a stock market speculation bubble, most particularly the NASDAQ, that dotcoms would EVENTUALLY make money. Never happened.

The money that fueled the dotcoms was all, and I mean all, venture capital. None of it, and I mean none, was generated by the dotcoms. Trust me, and I mean trust me, I was at dotcom ground zero in those heady, whacky (i.e. stupid and wasteful) days.

Man did that make me chuckle! Thanks for that. Ahhh the good old day and the reason everyone turns up to the ball park... the hope that someone's going to hit the long ball! Thanks Matt, that really made me smile. :sifone:

[JO - PANTERABOAT]

Great Thread.

Start of Miami to Bimini race in 1979. 1st Place Prize Money from February 1978 OPBRA race.

Regards,

Jo - Pantera Boats

[Matt Trulio]

Ratickle,

You are quite right, "Let's make a whole lot of money on this sport" is a less than optimal marketing approach. But again, we're talking business plan, and we live in a highly "incentivized" (profit motivated) country. Profitable things in United States, go figure, succeed and tend to get more profitable. Forget General Motors ... yes, they had huge union problems, but they also had a hugely inflated view of their customer base, and what the customer wanted in a product. But I digress.

You want an offshore racing marketing slogan? Off the top of my head, how about, "The Wettest Fun You Can Have." But again, I digress.

My point was this: We all need incentive and, frankly, protecting the "future" of offshore racing" is a pretty weak incentive. This isn't NASCAR and never, never will be, meaning I don't think the high end offshore race team owners will ever turn a profit. But let's say they can participate and break even, or come close. And let's say that, as they break even, they can turn their teams into at least a minor marketing vehicle for their own companies. That translates to free advertising.

Each of us is a "special interest," meaning first and foremost will do what's necessary to take care of ourselves and our people. That is a very good thing. So what does that translate to in a collective economic culture? It means that leaving or forming a "splinter group" will be so economically painful that only a lunatic would do it. Create that climate, that purely visceral capitalistic climate we all believe in, for offshore racing and it will reach another level. For all its flaws, I think the LLC understood that. (But I could be wrong. Smile._

[Ratickle]

Great Thread.

Start of Miami to Bimini race in 1979. 1st Place Prize Money from February 1978 OPBRA race.

Regards,

Jo - Pantera Boats

You forgot to cash it........:) Is it drawing interest?????

[JO - PANTERABOAT]

I was 7 years old in 1978. My Father never cashed it..:)

JO

[FastDonzi]

You forgot to cash it........:) Is it drawing interest?????



The guy who signed it was a great Family friend, that brought back memories, Probably will for Brownie too!

[salrcr42]

Do not automatically mix the terms "teams spending millions of their own money" and "for the good of the sport". These terms can be (and often have been) mutually exclusive.

T2x
point well taken, there certainly is a distinction between the two and in reality there usually always is a personal agenda attached. (except for very few exceptions)

[BUIZILLA]

i've learned more here that anywhere in the last 20 years... :seeya:

[T2x]

Duct tape, huh? Does that really work with hamsters?

I'm just asking. I am, after all, a very serious, self-important journalist.

The question referenced "electrical tape"....not duct tape. :p


Point of clarification: There was no "dotcom" money influx to offshore racing, because folks ... none of the dotcoms were making any money from 1999 to 2001.

In fact , Matt, there was a major player at that time (Richard Granville?), who was buying up boat companies and generally spreading cash around. He was alleged to have made a killing in some dot.com or other. I never pressed anyone for facts as I really didn't care. In addition where is it written that money that was amassed in 1998 couldn't still be p*ssed away in 2000? :D

T2x

[T2x]

Ratickle,

You are quite right, "Let's make a whole lot of money on this sport" is a less than optimal marketing approach. But again, we're talking business plan, and we live in a highly "incentivized" (profit motivated) country. Profitable things in United States, go figure, succeed and tend to get more profitable. Forget General Motors ... yes, they had huge union problems, but they also had a hugely inflated view of their customer base, and what the customer wanted in a product. But I digress.

You want an offshore racing marketing slogan? Off the top of my head, how about, "The Wettest Fun You Can Have." But again, I digress.

My point was this: We all need incentive and, frankly, protecting the "future" of offshore racing" is a pretty weak incentive. This isn't NASCAR and never, never will be, meaning I don't think the high end offshore race team owners will ever turn a profit. But let's say they can participate and break even, or come close. And let's say that, as they break even, they can turn their teams into at least a minor marketing vehicle for their own companies. That translates to free advertising.

Each of us is a "special interest," meaning first and foremost will do what's necessary to take care of ourselves and our people. That is a very good thing. So what does that translate to in a collective economic culture? It means that leaving or forming a "splinter group" will be so economically painful that only a lunatic would do it. Create that climate, that purely visceral capitalistic climate we all believe in, for offshore racing and it will reach another level. For all its flaws, I think the LLC understood that. (But I could be wrong. Smile._


Simply put and I heartily agree. It shouldn't be about fueling greed, but it should be all about covering reasonable expenses. If the APBA/CBF Inboard and OPC events could pay appearance money based on mileage traveled to our race teams in the early 70's, why the h*ll can't racers get a reasonable return today?

[Matt Trulio]

T2X,

Did that particular individual actually have any money? I know what was alleged and I was told that his money came from the dotcom world, but in the end ... did any money ever surface? I'm not so sure. In fact ... I don't think so.

And if it was from a dotcom, someone would have to tell me which one and prove it actually generated any income. Now, if we're talking about venture capital and calling it "dotcom money" ... I'm sure there are a few VCs out there who'd love to know about their dotcom seed money being spent in the offshore racing world.

The question remains: Did that individual ever "show us the money," if you will?

Mike A? Any light to shed or thoughts?

[Ratickle]

The million $, (multi, multi-billion $), question:

If a dot-com goes public with no product, just an idea (Irrational exuberance implied), and sells $10,000,000,000 worth of stock, did the dot-com make money?

Matt's answer is no, I agree. But if they spent it all on offshore boat racing, is life good???????:sifone:

[Ryan Beckley]

He claimed it was from a company called Avanna. He had the name on his F2 and another F1. He "Owned" Warlock and tried to by Phantom too. We did all of there trucks and motorhomes the years they did it up big. They spent about 30,000 with us in vinyl over a years period. We only ended up getting screwed out of about 150 bucks from Warlock in the end.........People that bought his, can't loose, "SkinTech", stock lost much more than that!!!!!! I heard he is back in real estate in Atlanta.

[Matt Trulio]

The real money-makers in the late 1990s were the tech companies such as Sun Microsystems, bio-tech companies such as Genentech, and pharmaceutical outfits such as Amgen. Their stock values skyrocketed until the NASDAQ started crashing in April 2000.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to "go public" you have to, among other things, show at least two quarters of profitability. From 1999 to 2001, there wasn't a dotcom, including Amazon, that to my knowledge was able to do that.

There was no infusion of dotcom money anywhere other than VC money going into dotcoms. However, the VC money did go to things outside the dotcoms such as advertising (recall the sock puppet Superbowl TV ads).

I can tell you where a few very lucky dotcom founders made big bucks ... they sold their dotcoms, almost all of which had neither a revenue stream nor a plan for a revenue stream, to other dotcoms who thought the dotcom idea was so good they could just figure out how to monetize it later. And we all know how that turned.

At least in the early stages, dotcoms were the biggest Ponzi scheme ever.

[Steve Miklos]

Most Granville's included were reverse IPO's. Going public is highly overated unless your $500M or more in revenue or need VC time funds.
Steve


The real money-makers in the late 1990s were the tech companies such as Sun Microsystems, bio-tech companies such as Genentech, and pharmaceutical outfits such as Amgen. Their stock values skyrocketed until the NASDAQ started crashing in April 2000.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to "go public" you have to, among other things, show at least two quarters of profitability. From 1999 to 2001, there wasn't a dotcom, including Amazon, that to my knowledge was able to do that.

There was no infusion of dotcom money anywhere other than VC money going into dotcoms. However, the VC money did go to things outside the dotcoms such as advertising (recall the sock puppet Superbowl TV ads).

I can tell you where a few very lucky dotcom founders made big bucks ... they sold their dotcoms, almost all of which had neither a revenue stream nor a plan for a revenue stream, to other dotcoms who thought the dotcom idea was so good they could just figure out how to monetize it later. And we all know how that turned.

At least in the early stages, dotcoms were the biggest Ponzi scheme ever.

[Ratickle]

But they did create a Federal Budget Surplus because of all the revenue generating taxes.....

I sometimes think that's why the government allows things to go that way, and the housing bubble, etc. Makes them money if they don't enforce the rules...



Anyway, back on boat racing, and a brighter future.....



I have not heard one reason for maintaining multiple organizations, or a reason they should have been started in the first place. There must be something reasonable, or it wouldn't have happened (my guess).

And, if there are reasonable reasons, why would not multiple organizations work today, if they were willing to work together?

As close as I can tell, there are currently 37 Offshore classes, 7 of them overlap and are identical between organizations. So, there are 30 unique classes.

[T2x]

T2X,

Did that particular individual actually have any money? I know what was alleged and I was told that his money came from the dotcom world, but in the end ... did any money ever surface? I'm not so sure. In fact ... I don't think so.

He may not have had any money....but he sure spent alot....and then he didn't. By that definition he was typical of many Offshore "Racers" over the years.....swoop in...drop a load of cash....show off.......have a come to Jesus meeting with the accountants....or wife.....then quickly disappear.