Who Caused the Recession?

[Chris]

I'm not a regular reader of the book, but my son subscribes to Rolling Stone. Last night I picked up the latest issue and read a brief story bt Matt Taibbi about Goldman Sachs. It's an amazing indictment of the company as well as some of their contemporaries. The article outlines the company's influences on the financial markets dating back to before the Great Depression. The real eye-opener is just how far their influence reaches into our government and how many key people past and present are Goldman alumni. What surprised me most is the glaring indictment of the Clinton administration and the direct relationship between their deregulation efforts and the fleecing of trillions from average Americans.

This article should be required reading for every American. It should wallpaper the offices of every elected official and there should be some public hangings on the Washington Mall.

[cigdaze]

The most resounding part in this whole mess is that Arthur Levitt, Clinton’s SEC chairman, the guy who helped create and pass in the Financial Services Modernization Act (repealing Glass-Steagall) and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act (deregulating derivatives), is now going to work for Goldman Sachs.

[Chris]

After reading that article, I want to kill a few people with my bare hands.

If you read how their most recent escapades in driving oil through the roof while demand was low and inventories were at record levels AND how they rigged the '09 fed bailouts, you'll be truly sick. Their next scam- carbon credits. It's sickening.

[2112]

I just started reading "increasing you financial IQ" by the author of rich dad/ poor dad.

He points a finger at the removal of the gold backed currency in 1971, which on the one hand allowed more growth of GDP (primarily through inflation) which benefits primarily the money changers (Wall Street), not America as a whole.

It was also the start of a ticking time bomb as it allowed the unbridled growth of the government via it's ability to print money when needed. Now our currency is backed by faith in the debt of America. :(

Of course, this recession may grow worse and I would then blame the opening of the federal spigot, bailing out failed Wall Street firms and bad mortgages rather than letting them fail.

I need to look up the Rolling Stone article.

[cigdaze]

Foreshadowing the next great bubble; how poignant:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090626/ap_on_go_co/us_climate_bill

[cigdaze]

The R.S. article is one of the best summations I've read yet regarding this financial meltdown. It's worth the read; as Chris said mandatory comes to mind.

You can find the article in its entirety here;
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16763183/TaibbiGoldmanSachs

[DonziGirl]

Damn I did not want to see that energy bill passed. Too much of a raise in taxes, too much gov't control in an area where I don't think they have any business and I think it's going to put too much strain on companies when they have to compete with over seas companies that do not have such restrictions. I think we'll see more good made off shore after this.

[Warlock28SXT]

It may be good to know who caused it, giving a place to direct anger and frustration. The better thing to know,in my opinion, is who is going to fix it?

[clayinaustin]

Trying to blaim one group or one political party for all of this is just crazy. If you are looking for one word, that word is GREED! There were greedy bank, greedy borrowers, greedy people every step of the way.

Here are some simple videos explaining what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGxmgwUWNr0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGxmgwUWNr0&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8hjUei-Nwo

[clayinaustin]

Basically the banks assumed that housing prices would always rise. This gave them the confidence to give "sub prime" loans to risky people. If and when the borrower defaulted, the bank would reposess a house that was worth more than the loan, and they could easily resell.

This allowed many more people to buy houses, which cause demand for houses to rise, which caused home prices to rise. It was a cycle that kept feeding on itself, until...

Eventually, the housing bubble reached it peak, homes began to be worth less than the value of the mortgage. People with high mortgage payments and little or no money just stopped paying. The banks were overwhemed with defaults. Soon the bank was more concerned with saving itself, and it had no time or resources to foreclose on the defaulted mortgages. The bad debtors got to live in big expensive homes and were paying nothing. They still are! :mad:

Meanwhile, the responsible people have seen their home values drop and their stock market investments cut in half! :(

I am 51 years old, and I am a finanically responsible person. But, Obama and his Democrats will make me pay for the greed of others. It's just not right! :mad:

[Wrinkleface]

It may be good to know who caused it, giving a place to direct anger and frustration. The better thing to know,in my opinion, is who is going to fix it?

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[cigdaze]

Clay, given the topic article, there is no blame on any one single party, rather it blames both equally.

Agreeably, the greed to which you've referred, points me to some memorable quotes:

"Western democratic capitalism, which never foresaw that in a society governed passively by free markets and free elections, organized greed always defeats disorganized democracy."

It's also noted that "[Goldman-Sachs] executives were trained to adopt the firm's mantra, "long-term greedy""

The current state of affairs can be traced back to more than just the housing bubble, the apex was reached through a series of out-of-control circumstances which leads us to today:
#1 TECH STOCKS (www.bullsh!t.com)
#2 THE HOUSING CRAZE
#3 $4 A GALLON
#4 RIGGING THE BAILOUT

[TCEd]

Trying to blaim one group or one political party for all of this is just crazy. If you are looking for one word, that word is GREED! There were greedy bank, greedy borrowers, greedy people every step of the way.

Here are some simple videos explaining what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGxmgwUWNr0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGxmgwUWNr0&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8hjUei-Nwo

MBA's with three piece suits and no ethical training started it back in the mid-80's. Think the movie Wall Street was fiction ?

[Ratickle]

The only question to me,

Is it too late to fix it?????

One of two things seems to have to happen. (Sooner or later they will for sure)

Quit printing money.
Hyper inflation.

Which and when? Or am I wrong????

[Chris]

The article is now attached to my first post.

Can it be fixed? Sure. If everyone in the U.S. demanded accountability from GS and those in the biz and forced the governmental agencies that have allowd this to happen to actually do their jobs, it could end tomorrow.

And we don't have to do anything dramatic and no one needs to get hurt. All we need to do is clamp down on the crooks that are creating these schemes that fleece all the outsiders. Problem is, the people we put into office are all beholden to these SOB's.

[phragle]

Obama's championing the green bubble, I predicted it well over a year ago. the techology isn't there to create a viable and sustainable green economy, the return just isn't there. investment has to be balanced with return. the oil bubble burst when we cut back/return diminished, the housing bubble burst when qualified buyers exceeded demand (they tried to string that one along)/return evaporated, the dot com bubble burst when people realized that having a website was not going to magically transform thier mom and pop buisness into an instant internet fortune 500 company...

go green!! carbon credits!! energy credits!! bah!! some may save a few bucks but to be viable it needs to MAKE money , not save a few dollars here and there. very few will make money. A lot will lose money

[Ratickle]

Obama's championing the green bubble, I predicted it well over a year ago. the techology isn't there to create a viable and sustainable green economy, the return just isn't there. investment has to be balanced with return. the oil bubble burst when we cut back/return diminished, the housing bubble burst when qualified buyers exceeded demand (they tried to string that one along)/return evaporated, the dot com bubble burst when people realized that having a website was not going to magically transform thier mom and pop buisness into an instant internet fortune 500 company...

go green!! carbon credits!! energy credits!! bah!! some may save a few bucks but to be viable it needs to MAKE money , not save a few dollars here and there. very few will make money. A lot will lose money

One of the most interesting facts I've read. Over 25% of all pollution in California comes across the Pacific from China on the trade winds. And with the new Obama tax on emissions in this country, they expect manufacturing to increase even more in China and the pollution in California to increase, not lessen.

[phragle]

Rat...if you only knew what california is like.. they are enviro-nazi's far beyond anything the federal govt can dream up... the front door to every hospital in california has to have a big sign that says "this facility uses chemicals known by the state of california to cause cancer".......

[jayboat]

Tabbi is one of my favorite journalists- he will call bullsh!t in a heartbeat, as anyone who watches Bill Maher knows.

When I first heard this story a month or so ago, I felt just like Chris did. It was like a final nail in the coffin for me- a billboard shouting: THE GAME IS RIGGED AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT, and I sold all my stocks and mutual funds the next day.

People should hang for this sh!t.

[phragle]

Jay, there was a time you didn't believe the game was rigged??

*edit* meant as everyone knows the game is rigged........

[insanity]

I'm not reading it...ignorance is bliss...

[Ratickle]

People should hang for this sh!t.

Absolutely......


ANd we can't even get the mainstream news outlets to report it.....

[jayboat]

Absolutely......


ANd we can't even get the mainstream news outlets to report it.....

That's why I keep telling you about kos and talkingpointsmemo.
I know they're left-leaning, but they are all over this kind of chit.

and speaking of media... here's a good article (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/27/747645/-The-End-of-the-Drudge-Era) (Kos alert) about the sea change that is happening before our eyes. encouraging.

[Expensive Date]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by430chzT98

Actually we have to blame Wilson this is a little long but interesting.Found it on a financial message board a few weeks ago.

As for GS they are in control right now itsa rare day when the dow and any financial index fund is up when they are down

[cuda]

It may be good to know who caused it, giving a place to direct anger and frustration. The better thing to know,in my opinion, is who is going to fix it?

Like I always say, it's easier to fix the blame than fix the problem.

[cuda]

My mom's from Oregon, where there have been lumberjacks in the family for generations. Now the enviro whackos won't let them cut down trees, one of our only renewable resources, and the backbone of the economy of Oregon. :cuss:

[phragle]

Like I always say, it's easier to fix the blame than fix the problem.

I think you will have much better success if you can figure out their system and how to expolit it for profit than waiting for them to fix it. if you can decipher their manipulation of the market and use it as a guide.... I'm not that smart..I just gave my money to fidelity and look at it once or twice a year..actually it's much less depressing to just foget it's there..

[Ted]

Good luck with that Drudge thing there Jay, he is here for at least the near term, and it will not be Twitter that dethrones him, nor will it be your poor dear, Kos.

[phragle]

Jay...I heard this guy on the radio....he's all about you http://www.peterwerbe.com/

[Chris]

That's why I keep telling you about kos and talkingpointsmemo.
I know they're left-leaning, but they are all over this kind of chit.

and speaking of media... here's a good article (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/27/747645/-The-End-of-the-Drudge-Era) (Kos alert) about the sea change that is happening before our eyes. encouraging.

Kos, Rush and the whole bunch of them are nothing but entertainers. They attract audiences by getting them all riled up. It's almost impossible to get good, detailed, unbiased news coverage anymore. News for the most part is a thing of the past. Our obsession with fame and celebrity has provided us with a glut of coverage of "famous people" and driven actual coverage of important events so far away that you can't find it. I hate to say it and it will come across more harsh than I intend, but the average American deserves what they get. Our attention span has contracted down to nothing and our need to be continuously and constantly entertained by a steady stream of mindless $hit borders on vulgar.

[Ratickle]

Our attention span has contracted down to nothing and our need to be continuously and constantly entertained by a steady stream of mindless $hit borders on vulgar.

You believe that it is truly the "average" American, or it is a case that follows the percentage of people who are available to endlessly watch the drivel?

[phragle]

the underlying reason the Chris' dilema is simple. News is a for profit industry. The incentive is money. Money is generorated by commercials, the more viewers/higher ratings, the more valuable the commercial time. The more entertaining, sensationalizing and the hotter the news chick is, the more viewrers and the more dollars. Lara Logan isn't reporting from Iraq because she gets the story, she's reporting from Iraq because you want to bend her over the hood of a humvee.

[cigdaze]

You believe that it is truly the "average" American, or it is a case that follows the percentage of people who are available to endlessly watch the drivel?It's worse. It should come as no surprise: The average American is a mindless buffoon who is nearly entirely disengaged from world events, worldly culture, current affairs and local/national politics. They are complacent, non-caring and oblivious to all but the next 15 minutes in their lives with nary a notion of what happened in the world yesterday, but can recite every American idol from the past 3 years and OMG Michael Jackson. That is sadly what generations of 'I have rights,' 'I deserve,' 'I want,' and 'I'm offended,' have created. Mix in some ingredients like 'No dummy left behind,' equal opportunity, and mo' free sht, and we have breed a society of idiots that blindly allow themselves to be swindled a dozen ways to their graves. The limits of average comprehension amount to little more than 'sht sucks right now,' 'sumtin's gotta change,' and OMG.

[phragle]

if you think semi long term, it's like the syndrome where an abductee begins to accept, identify with and embrace their kidnapper.. rage at abduction (the 60's) then to apathy/disinfranchised..were just screwed.... then false hope (if I go along he will take care of me) then messiahhood... his only mission is to take care of me..
slow brainwashing..

confine, breakdown, instill false beliefs, reenforce false beliefs, foster alleigance

[jayboat]

Kos, Rush and the whole bunch of them are nothing but entertainers. They attract audiences by getting them all riled up. It's almost impossible to get good, detailed, unbiased news coverage anymore. News for the most part is a thing of the past. Our obsession with fame and celebrity has provided us with a glut of coverage of "famous people" and driven actual coverage of important events so far away that you can't find it. I hate to say it and it will come across more harsh than I intend, but the average American deserves what they get. Our attention span has contracted down to nothing and our need to be continuously and constantly entertained by a steady stream of mindless $hit borders on vulgar.

I agree with your comments on coverage and attention span- I believe that if the 'average' voter was as informed as half the people on this forum, our world would be a different place. Infotainment as news has been a pet peeve of mine for twenty years. Seems as if people can't be bothered to think any more, and I blame the MSM for a lot of the problem. I realize the difficulty in covering a day's events around the world in 30 minutes, but the tripe that comes down the newspipe has conditioned people to think superficially. I am hopeful that as the internet evolves, this issue will resolve itself.

But...
when you group Kos and Rush in the same basket that tells me you really don't know much about the site. And I think there are plenty of bloggers who are genuinely interested in pursuing and presenting real stories. I suppose any political site can feel like an echo chamber, especially if it tends towards an opposing ideology than your own. For that reason, I generally don't spend time reading comments on any of them and just scan the headlines for things that interest me. I'm not such a political junkie that I need to know what's on the House schedule for the week, but I guess there are those who need that sort of info in their news mix, just as there are those who need to hear what rushbo thinks about the news du'jour.

[Ted]

I totally agree with Jay on grouping Kos and Rush in the same basket. Rush sees himself as a commentator and an entertainer. Kos sees himself as some all knowing and powerful being that can say anything to rile up his group of kool-aid drinkers into a frenzy. Problem is, he is also being drawn in by the mainstream so he will begin to moderate that or fail.

[Ratickle]

I agree with your comments on coverage and attention span- I believe that if the 'average' voter was as informed as half the people on this forum, our world would be a different place. Infotainment as news has been a pet peeve of mine for twenty years. Seems as if people can't be bothered to think any more, and I blame the MSM for a lot of the problem. I realize the difficulty in covering a day's events around the world in 30 minutes, but the tripe that comes down the newspipe has conditioned people to think superficially. I am hopeful that as the internet evolves, this issue will resolve itself.

But...
when you group Kos and Rush in the same basket that tells me you really don't know much about the site. And I think there are plenty of bloggers who are genuinely interested in pursuing and presenting real stories. I suppose any political site can feel like an echo chamber, especially if it tends towards an opposing ideology than your own. For that reason, I generally don't spend time reading comments on any of them and just scan the headlines for things that interest me. I'm not such a political junkie that I need to know what's on the House schedule for the week, but I guess there are those who need that sort of info in their news mix, just as there are those who need to hear what rushbo thinks about the news du'jour.

Okay, what right leaning blogger or news host would you compare to kos or talkingpoints memo???

For the record, I vote conservative to moderate. Have never voted a single party ticket, and believe moderate/middle class Americans are being screwed by both sides.

[Chris]

You believe that it is truly the "average" American, or it is a case that follows the percentage of people who are available to endlessly watch the drivel?

Pretty much.

I, like most of you, live in a pretty isolated place. I deal mostly with professionals and associate with a small circle of friends. But Nick hits the nail pretty squarely on the head- we live in a country packed to the gills with self-absorbed mouth breathers. And it's getting worse.

I almost see myself looking at the world from the GS perspective- if they don't care enough to do something or care for themselves, why shouldn't they be fleeced? But so far I've been able to take care of myself and avoid being swept under by the flood. But unchecked I expect there will come a time when that flood sweeps over all of us.

[jayboat]

Okay, what right leaning blogger or news host would you compare to kos or talkingpoints memo???


RealClearPolitics and The American Scene are the only ones regularly on my radar, and since Reihan Salam isn't posting much on Scene any more, I don't hit it regularly. I think he and Daniel Larison are two of the best conservative thinkers out there.

[Chris]

But...
when you group Kos and Rush in the same basket that tells me you really don't know much about the site. And I think there are plenty of bloggers who are genuinely interested in pursuing and presenting real stories. .

I'll be the first to admit that I don't spend much time at all on the site. And I've never been to Rush's, O'Reilly's, Hannity's or any other site. But the overall theme is inciting extremism- on all of them. I like raw news and sometimes (rarely) I appreciate the measured and insightful opinion of a commentator. Rarely.


I see no real value in someone getting people all worked up. Mostly because all that ever happens is they sit around and parrot someone else's thoughts to a group of people that all think the same thing. Rarely if ever does anything positive happen. I'm not going to really change any of my viewpoints all that much regardless of what someone from a different political perspective tells me. And I'm a reasonably informed and open minded person. People should stop calling talk radio programs and begin writing to their elected representatives.

[cuda]

The first time I ever heard of Rush was in an article in Reader's Digest. He even said he was about entertainment.

I try to stay informed, but I have no idea of who Kos is, and why I should care.

[Offshoredrillin]

RealClearPolitics and The American Scene are the only ones regularly on my radar, and since Reihan Salam isn't posting much on Scene any more, I don't hit it regularly. I think he and Daniel Larison are two of the best conservative thinkers out there.

check in with Charles krauthammer, he is a local Maryland guy that has some pretty poignant facts and reasoning.

[Ratickle]

Maybe we should start a thread with the best news/events reportings and why. I would have never guessed both liberals and conservatives would be quoting and refering to Rolling Stones mag.

[Chris]

check in with Charles krauthammer, he is a local Maryland guy that has some pretty poignant facts and reasoning.

He's one of the few commentators that I enjoy and appreciate. Very level-headed and insightful.

[jayboat]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't spend much time at all on the site. And I've never been to Rush's, O'Reilly's, Hannity's or any other site. But the overall theme is inciting extremism- on all of them. I like raw news and sometimes (rarely) I appreciate the measured and insightful opinion of a commentator. Rarely.


I see no real value in someone getting people all worked up. Mostly because all that ever happens is they sit around and parrot someone else's thoughts to a group of people that all think the same thing. Rarely if ever does anything positive happen. I'm not going to really change any of my viewpoints all that much regardless of what someone from a different political perspective tells me. And I'm a reasonably informed and open minded person. People should stop calling talk radio programs and begin writing to their elected representatives.

Totally agree, Chris. If people want to sit around in a comments section and repeat the same chit to each other so they feel good about themselves- let em. I got better things to do with my time. No single news article, or website, or magazine, or commentator will ever change anyone's ideology. The best one can hope for is that something will click and maybe open their mind to a different point of view, and maybe, just maybe... over the course of time help people re-shape their thinking based on real facts.

That's all I'm interested in... the goddamn facts.
Give me the truth without any spin. and let me decide for myself.

To me, that is the real, true promise of the internet. If you take the time to seek out the truth-tellers such as Froomkin, Hersh, Greenwald and the few others who really, really get it, then you give yourself a chance to make up your mind based on reality, not some news director's idea of reality. Same holds true for the big media outlets of other countries- if you read the BBC, India Times, etc you get a totally different viewpoint on the news.

Helps one to keep a more rounded perspective on things, I think.

(I'll keep my opinons about Krauthammer to myself. :) )

[jayboat]

Maybe we should start a thread with the best news/events reportings and why. I would have never guessed both liberals and conservatives would be quoting and refering to Rolling Stones mag.

They did a great expose last year on John McCain. As usual, I got blasted for posting it, but the article was obviously well-researched and had a real ring of truth to it- really showed what a classless jerk he is. McCain's camp never really denied any of it.

Of course, I was never a big fan of his anyway.

[Ratickle]

They did a great expose last year on John McCain. As usual, I got blasted for posting it, but the article was obviously well-researched and had a real ring of truth to it- really showed what a classless jerk he is. McCain's camp never really denied any of it.

Of course, I was never a big fan of his anyway.

Classless? :sifone:

I still think we have not had an election where a choice had to be made between the lesser of two evils in a long, long time.

But, it's not the candidates at the root cause, it's the two parties who have corrupted the process.

I still think if you lie to get elected, you should be replaced.....

Breach of contract....

[jayboat]

But, it's not the candidates at the root cause, it's the two parties who have corrupted the process.

I still think if you lie to get elected, you should be replaced.....

Breach of contract....

They all lie... what's the answer to that?

Term limits would be a good start.

[Ratickle]

They all lie... what's the answer to that?

Term limits would be a good start.

All new politicians......:sifone:


Would you lie to get elected? I mean flat out lie????

[Ted]

They did a great expose last year on John McCain. As usual, I got blasted for posting it, but the article was obviously well-researched and had a real ring of truth to it- really showed what a classless jerk he is. McCain's camp never really denied any of it.

Of course, I was never a big fan of his anyway.

Shame they neglected to do the same thing on Mr Obama.

[Ted]

Okay, what right leaning blogger or news host would you compare to kos or talkingpoints memo???

For the record, I vote conservative to moderate. Have never voted a single party ticket, and believe moderate/middle class Americans are being screwed by both sides.

www.freerepublic.com is just about the same as Kos, just the other way.

[Chris]

They all lie... what's the answer to that?

Term limits would be a good start.


They all have term limits already. It's called don't vote them back in.

Term limits are embarrasing. It's the population getting together and admitting as a group that they're way to stupid and way too lazy to be trusted with the responsibility of correcting the mistakes they made the last time they blindly pulled the lever for someone they knew nothing about, nor put any effort into finding out about.

[Chris]

Did Obama really lie? Or was it blind naivete that got him where he's at? Did his idealism blind him to the realities of the real world? Did he not understand that the game is rigged against a president and they really don't have all the domestic power that people assume?

[Buoy]

Did Obama really lie? Or was it blind naivete that got him where he's at? Did his idealism blind him to the realities of the real world? Did he not understand that the game is rigged against a president and they really don't have all the domestic power that people assume?

I would think something similar to "ignorance of the law is not an excuse" could apply.

[Ratickle]

Did Obama really lie? Or was it blind naivete that got him where he's at? Did his idealism blind him to the realities of the real world? Did he not understand that the game is rigged against a president and they really don't have all the domestic power that people assume?

If I am Bush 1 and say NO NEW TAXES, then don't even attempt to pass it, I should be gone.

If I am Obama, and say NO TAX INCREASES on anyone making less than $250,000 per year, and increase taxes in the first 3 months on those people, I should be gone.

To me, those are lies, not ignorance.

[Chris]

Either way, it sort of casts a pallor over his young presidency. If he was that naive, why would we believe he's not similarly naive about all the rest of his beliefs. On the other hand, if he knew full well he couldn't possibly do any of the things he was promising, why would we trust what he's telling us now. Isn't this the classical "Catch-22"?

[jayboat]

Classless? :sifone:


Hope I didn't stump ya there, bubba. :)

Not trying to turn this into a mccain thread, but Todd Purdum's profile piece on Sarah Palin came out today (Vanity Fair). I haven't read the whole thing yet, but there is plenty in there about little john mccain. It probly could be a separate thread, but I just don't have the energy for it.
:beatdeadhorse5:

So far, I particularly like Josh Marshall's comment on a piece of it regarding some of mccain's staff:

It's a high bar to find shocking new revelations about Palin's character and political identity. But this piece may bring home how truly shocking a decision it was for McCain to pick Palin. Not a bad decision or an ill-considered one, but one that in single stroke showed McCain had no business being president. An angry, resentful, small-time crooked pol. And she really could have been president because of McCain's recklessness. Read Purdum's piece. But I have little doubt and some direct knowledge that we'll be hearing new shocking details of who this woman is for months, perhaps years, to come.

Like I said, no class. nada.

[fund razor]

Not trying to turn this into a mccain thread

Ok. :)

[Offshoredrillin]

Did Obama really lie? Or was it blind naivete that got him where he's at? Did his idealism blind him to the realities of the real world? Did he not understand that the game is rigged against a president and they really don't have all the domestic power that people assume?

i still have this gut feeling that Obama has some deep reaching ties back to Soros and some others. his rise to the white house is just too star like,and he seems to act like a puppet.

My theory is this, a few years ago, The Dems needed someone that was unbeatable, and with the way political correctness is, a black man or woman in their eyes would be unbeatable. I don't dislike Obama as a person, however I feel his policies and social views are bad for America. With his numbers slipping daily, i really don't see him here for a second term and America is already turning their back on congress, 2010 will hopefully even the control in the house and senate.

[Chris]

Absolutely. He was selected years ago and positioned for the job by "someone".

http://www.2004dnc.com/barackobamaspeech/

[Ratickle]

Absolutely. He was selected years ago and positioned for the job by "someone".

http://www.2004dnc.com/barackobamaspeech/

It was actually the Kennedy's. Here is a link to an article about Kennedy's Kool-Aid boys and how it all came about. There are several more out there. I remember reading some of these way back when he was running....

http://www.newsweek.com/id/167582

[Offshoredrillin]

Absolutely. He was selected years ago and positioned for the job by "someone".

http://www.2004dnc.com/barackobamaspeech/

excerpt from that same speech

"Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you: They don't want their tax money wasted by a welfare agency or by the Pentagon.
Go into any inner-city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can't teach kids to learn."


What the hell went wrong from then till now?

[Chris]

Good read.

When they told me years ago that ANYBODY could become President of the United States, I guess they weren't $hitting me.

[Chris]

excerpt from that same speech

"Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you: They don't want their tax money wasted by a welfare agency or by the Pentagon.
Go into any inner-city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can't teach kids to learn."


What the hell went wrong from then till now?


He got the job. The people that gave it to him had "the talk" with him.

[jayboat]

Aren't you guys reaching a bit with this?

The guy is obviously brilliant, a once-in-a-lifetime orator and a verrrry shrewd politician-- so why wouldn't those in the power circles be interested in a guy like that?

You all act like it's some dark conspiracy, ooooooh. But, isn't that basically how politics works?

Not one of you can admit what's as plain as the nose on your face- the man is a great politician, and hopefully, history will prove him to be a great leader as well.

[jayboat]

Well, this is the funniest chit to hit the wire in a long time. :boxing_smiley:

If you really, really want a good read, click here (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=33D91FFD-18FE-70B2-A87D66E6D1BFE37B).

It's just the initial fallout started by the Palin piece yesterday on VanityFair.com, and already it reads like the start of a nuclear war between some of the high-level strategists from the mclame campaign.

Oh, those crazy republicans. :biggrinjester:

As always, I like Sullivan's take on it:

What I make of it is that the selection of Sarah Palin was one of the most absurd, nutty, cynical and incompetent decisions in the modern history of American campaigning. And the Republican party, far from trying to understand how they made such a reckless decision, remains in total denial. Kristol and Barnes chief among them. The in-fighting is a function of both the chaotic management style of John McCain, the psycotic nature of Palin and the toujours l'audace mentality of the Kristol brigade. They all deserved each other - and the party and political tradition they have collectively destroyed.

[Geronimo36]

My heart doesn't believe this and I don't think we'll let it happen but "some" (not all) of the things I am seeing make me wonder. :lurk5:

"Charles Krauthammer Speech/Comments on the 'New Economy' & Barack Obama

To my friends & associates:

Last Monday was a profound evening, hearing Dr. Charles Krauthammer speak to the Center for the American Experiment. He is a brilliant intellectual, seasoned & articulate. He is forthright & careful in his analysis, & never resorts to emotions or personal insults. He is NOT a fearmonger nor an extremist in his comments & views. He is a fiscal conservative, & has a Pulitzer prize for writing. He is a frequent contributor to Fox News & writes weekly for the Washington Post. The entire room was held spellbound during his talk. I have shared this w/ many of you & several have asked me to summarize his comments, as we are living in uncharted waters economically & internationally. Even 2 Dims at my table agreed w/ everything he said! If you feel like forwarding this to those who are open minded & have not 'drunk the Kool-Aid', feel free.

Here is his resume from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Krauthammer

A summary of his comments:

1. Mr. Obama is a very intellectual, charming individual. He is not to be underestimated. He is a 'cool customer' who doesn't show his emotions. It's very hard to know what's 'behind the mask'. Taking down the Clinton dynasty from a political neophyte was an amazing accomplishment. The Clintons still do not understand what hit them. Obama was in the perfect place at the perfect time.

2. Obama has political skills comparable to Reagan & Clinton. He has a way of making you think he's on your side, agreeing w/ your position, while doing the opposite. Pay no attn. to what he SAYS; rather, watch what he DOES!

3. Obama has a ruthless quest for power. He did not come to Washington to make something out of himself, but rather to change everything, incl. dismantling capitalism. He can't be straightforward on his ambitions, as the public would not go along. He has a heavy hand, & wants to 'level the playing field' w/ income redistribution & punishment of the achievers of society. He would like to model the USA to Great Britain or Canada.

4. His 3 main goals are to control ENERGY, PUBLIC EDUCATION, & NAT'L HEALTHCARE by the Fed. govt. He doesn't care about the auto or financial services industries, but got them as an early bonus. The cap & trade will add costs to everything & stifle growth. Paying for FREE college education is his goal. Most scary is healthcare program, because if you make it FREE & add 46,000,000 people to a Medicare-type single-payer system, the costs will go thru the roof. The only way to control costs is w/ massive RATIONING of services, like in Canada. God forbid.

5. He's surrounded himself w/ mostly far-left academic types. No 1 around him has ever run even a candy store. But they're going to try & run the auto, financial, banking & other industries. This obviously can't work in the long run. Obama's not a socialist; rather a far-left secular progressive bent on nothing short of revolution. He ran as a moderate, but will govern from the hard left. Again, watch what he does, not what he says.

6. Obama doesn't really see himself as President of the USA, more as a ruler over the world. He sees himself above it all, trying to orchestrate & coordinate various countries & their agendas. He sees moral equivilency in all cultures. His apology tour in Germany & England was a prime example of how he sees America, as an imperialist nation that has been arrogant, rather than a great noble nation that has at times made errors.. This is the 1st President ever who has chastised our allies & appeased our enemies!

7. He's now handing out goodies. He hopes that the bill (& pain) will not 'come due' until after he's reelected in 2012. He'd like to blame all problems on Bush from the past, & hopefully his successor in the future. He has a huge ego, & Mr. Krauthammer believes he is a narcicist.

8. Republicans are in the wilderness for a while, but will emerge strong. We're 'pining' for another Reagan, but there'll never be another like him. He believes Mitt Romney, Tim Pawlenty & Bobby Jindahl (except for his terrible speech in Feb.) are the future of the party. Newt Gingrich is brilliant, but has baggage.. Sarah Palin is sincere & intelligent, but needs to really be seriously boning up on facts & info if she's to be a serious candidate in the future. We need to return to the party of lower taxes, smaller govt., personal responsibility, strong nat'l defense, & states' rights.

9. The current level of spending is irresponsible & outrageous. We're spending trillions that we don't have. This could lead to hyper inflation, depression or worse. No country has ever spent themselves into prosperity. The media is giving Obama, Reid & Pelosi a pass because they love their agenda. But eventually the bill will come due & people will realize the huge bailouts didn't work, nor will the stimulus pkg. These were trillion-dollar payoffs to Obama's allies, unions & the Congress to placate the left, so he can get support for #4 above.

10. The election was over in mid-Sept. when Lehman brothers failed. Fear & panic swept in, we had an unpopular President, & the war was grinding on indefinitely w/o a clear outcome. The people are in pain, & the mantra of 'change' caused people to act emotionally. Any Dim would have won this election; it was surprising is was as close as it was.

11. In 2012, if the unemployment rate is over 10%, Republicans will be swept back into power. If it's under 8%, the Dims continue to roll. If it's between 8-10%, it'll be a dogfight. It'll all be about the economy.

I hope this gets you really thinking about what's happening in Washington & Congress. There's a left-wing revolution going on, according to Krauthammer, & he encourages us to keep the faith & join the loyal resistance. The work will be hard, but we're right on most issues & can reclaim our country, before it's far too late."

[cigdaze]

Our interpretations of greatness must differ. I see nothing more than a slimy, double-talker. He's smooth, I'll give him that, but brilliant?...not even close. I frankly think he's a lousy politician with a barely more than a brief record of absenteeism to his credit. Since taking office, he's shown me nothing more than one bumbling mistake after another. When I think of great orators, I think of men like Churchill and Reagan.

I'm not alone either. Yesterday's Rasmussen poll showed his overall approval rating at -2.
(Yes, negative 2).

[Ratickle]

Aren't you guys reaching a bit with this?.

No reaching Jay, he was chosen as a political face to get the Presidency for the Dems. Not that it is bad for the Dems, just too bad the political process works that way.


The guy is obviously brilliant, a once-in-a-lifetime orator and a verrrry shrewd politician-- so why wouldn't those in the power circles be interested in a guy like that?.

That's not necessary a good thing for the country. Shrewd politicians is what has caused the country to get in the mess it is. We need no more of them, period.....


You all act like it's some dark conspiracy, ooooooh. But, isn't that basically how politics works?.

Yes it is, once again not necessarily good for the country. In fact, the exact opposite. The way politics works, is what is destroying all of our opportunities to succeed by working hard.


Not one of you can admit what's as plain as the nose on your face- the man is a great politician,.

But don't we need a great person to fix our issues instead? Great politicians are pretty much worthless to the real issues in this country. Obviously the Bush family are great politicians. Does that make the Bush family good for the well-being of the USA?


and hopefully, history will prove him to be a great leader as well.

We'll see, so far not impressed....

[Ratickle]

Our interpretations of greatness must differ. I see nothing more than a slimy, double-talker. He's smooth, I'll give him that, but brilliant?...not even close. I frankly think he's a lousy politician with a barely more than a brief record of absenteeism to his credit. Since taking office, he's shown me nothing more than one bumbling mistake after another. When I think of great orators, I think of men like Churchill and Reagan.

I'm not alone either. Yesterday's Rasmussen poll showed his overall approval rating at -2.
(Yes, negative 2).

From the poll....

Wednesday, July 01, 2009

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Wednesday shows that 32% of the nation's voters now Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Thirty-three percent (33%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -1

[pullmytrigger]

Classless? :sifone:

I still think if you lie to get elected, you should be replaced.....

Breach of contract....

A guy up here by the name of Preston Manning of the Reform Party (who have since merged with the Conservatives) tried to do exactly that some 15 yrs ago.....he proposed to have a mechanism in place whereby if you broke a documented election promise your govt got the boot......the public loved it and Manning and his Reform Party nearly got elected in the early 90s......Unfortunately the the governing Li(lie)brals defeated the bill in Parliament

[Ratickle]

A guy up here by the name of Preston Manning of the Reform Party (who have since merged with the Conservatives) tried to do exactly that some 15 yrs ago.....he proposed to have a mechanism in place whereby if you broke a documented election promise your govt got the boot......the public loved it and Manning and his Reform Party nearly got elected in the early 90s......Unfortunately the the governing Li(lie)brals defeated the bill in Parliament

Try again, if it passes, I'm moving north........:)

[jayboat]

Our interpretations of greatness must differ. I see nothing more than a slimy, double-talker. He's smooth, I'll give him that, but brilliant?...not even close. I frankly think he's a lousy politician with a barely more than a brief record of absenteeism to his credit. Since taking office, he's shown me nothing more than one bumbling mistake after another. When I think of great orators, I think of men like Churchill and Reagan.

I'm not alone either. Yesterday's Rasmussen poll showed his overall approval rating at -2.
(Yes, negative 2).

In your world, I guess. And I'm sure we will continue to agree to disagree. :sifone:

I never cease to be amazed at how you guys will grab at any little thing to 'prove' how right you are. Even when you aren't.

The fact is, the repub party is so far off the tracks right now that the tracks aren't even in sight. The only option seems to be constant slamming of the administration as they try to clean up the catastrophes left behind by bushco.

[fund razor]

As always, I like Sullivan's take on it:

What I make of it is that the selection of Sarah Palin was one of the most absurd, nutty, cynical and incompetent decisions in the modern history of American campaigning. And the Republican party, far from trying to understand how they made such a reckless decision, remains in total denial. Kristol and Barnes chief among them. The in-fighting is a function of both the chaotic management style of John McCain, the psycotic nature of Palin and the toujours l'audace mentality of the Kristol brigade. They all deserved each other - and the party and political tradition they have collectively destroyed.

We should offer Sullivan a membership. He posts quite a bit. He was a big poster on that other forum, too. :)

[cigdaze]

(1)In your world, I guess. And I'm sure we will continue to agree to disagree. :sifone:


(2)I never cease to be amazed at how you guys will grab at any little thing to 'prove' how right you are. Even when you aren't.

(3)The fact is, the repub party is so far off the tracks right now that the tracks aren't even in sight. The only option seems to be constant slamming of the administration as they try to clean up the catastrophes left behind by bushco.

(1)Yes it is, and yes we will. :)

(2)It is what it is; right, wrong or indifferent. I'm just callin' it like I see it. The guy's doing nothing for me, I stand only to lose via his policies and ideals.

(3)I wouldn't disagree with you on that. The (R)'s have lost control of the house, senate, and the big seat - so ya, they're scrambling. I'd love nothing more than to flush the toilet on both sides.

[TCEd]

Well, this is the funniest chit to hit the wire in a long time. :boxing_smiley:

If you really, really want a good read, click here (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=33D91FFD-18FE-70B2-A87D66E6D1BFE37B).

It's just the initial fallout started by the Palin piece yesterday on VanityFair.com, and already it reads like the start of a nuclear war between some of the high-level strategists from the mclame campaign.

Oh, those crazy republicans. :biggrinjester:

As always, I like Sullivan's take on it:

What I make of it is that the selection of Sarah Palin was one of the most absurd, nutty, cynical and incompetent decisions in the modern history of American campaigning. And the Republican party, far from trying to understand how they made such a reckless decision, remains in total denial. Kristol and Barnes chief among them. The in-fighting is a function of both the chaotic management style of John McCain, the psycotic nature of Palin and the toujours l'audace mentality of the Kristol brigade. They all deserved each other - and the party and political tradition they have collectively destroyed.

I have to go with Spiro Agnew as "one of the most absurd, nutty, cynical and incompetent decisions in the modern history". And he got elected V.P. and most of America forgets he was thrown out of office before Nixon was impeached !
ed

[Offshoredrillin]

Aren't you guys reaching a bit with this?

The guy is obviously brilliant, a once-in-a-lifetime orator and a verrrry shrewd politician-- so why wouldn't those in the power circles be interested in a guy like that?

You all act like it's some dark conspiracy, ooooooh. But, isn't that basically how politics works?

Not one of you can admit what's as plain as the nose on your face- the man is a great politician, and hopefully, history will prove him to be a great leader as well.
I dont disagree with the politician part. I'm not as convinced as you on the leader part...only time will tell. for Americas sake, I hope you are righy.

[Geronimo36]

The fact is, the repub party is so far off the tracks right now that the tracks aren't even in sight. The only option seems to be constant slamming of the administration as they try to clean up the catastrophes left behind by bushco.

Wait a minute....when the shoe was on the other foot that's the same thing you all were doing (slamming the administration) despite being far off... As a matter of fact, that's how Obama got elected.....:leaving:

See below from my post above...

8. Republicans are in the wilderness for a while, but will emerge strong. We're 'pining' for another Reagan, but there'll never be another like him. He believes Mitt Romney, Tim Pawlenty & Bobby Jindahl (except for his terrible speech in Feb.) are the future of the party. Newt Gingrich is brilliant, but has baggage.. Sarah Palin is sincere & intelligent, but needs to really be seriously boning up on facts & info if she's to be a serious candidate in the future. We need to return to the party of lower taxes, smaller govt., personal responsibility, strong nat'l defense, & states' rights.

[Ratickle]

I have to go with Spiro Agnew as "one of the most absurd, nutty, cynical and incompetent decisions in the modern history". And he got elected V.P. and most of America forgets he was thrown out of office before Nixon was impeached !
ed

Nixon was not impeached. He resigned...


The only modern day President to be impeached was Clinton....

[Ratickle]

The fact is, the repub party is so far off the tracks right now that the tracks aren't even in sight.



I will not disagree in the slightest.....

I have not wavered one little bit on we need to start completely over....

[jayboat]

I have to go with Spiro Agnew as "one of the most absurd, nutty, cynical and incompetent decisions in the modern history". And he got elected V.P. and most of America forgets he was thrown out of office before Nixon was impeached !
ed

In retrospect, it's easy to see what a crappy pick Agnew was, but I don't remember him melting down in real time like palin.

It's been a long time, and I admit that politics wasn't high on my priority list back then, but I don't remember Agnew doing the kind of stupid stuff that palin has done, at least not DURING the campaign. He may have been corrupt as all hell, but it seems like he knew the basics of politics. to me, palin comes across as a small-minded moron in high heels.

[Ratickle]

In retrospect, it's easy to see what a crappy pick Agnew was, but I don't remember him melting down in real time like palin.

It's been a long time, and I admit that politics wasn't high on my priority list back then, but I don't remember Agnew doing the kind of stupid stuff that palin has done, at least not DURING the campaign. He may have been corrupt as all hell, but it seems like he knew the basics of politics. to me, palin comes across as a small-minded moron in high heels.

I'm not picking on Palin. I do think she was a very poor choice, but it did generate news and votes because she was a woman. It also cost votes because she was a woman.

What I am interested in is the future direction of this country. Nationalizing Banking, Savings and Loan, Automotive, Automotive Loan, Stock Market Investing, Tobacco, and possibly Health Care is a for sure failure. The only question is how long......

[Ted]

O is simply a vessel, and slowly but surely that is coming through, both in his decisions and his poll numbers. He was "chosen" and protected, and now that won't do. Too bad, so sad. Now as for the Pubbies being screwed we have :

THANKS A BILLION THANKS FOR MAKING JUNE 2009 -- TOP JUNE IN DRUDGEREPORT'S 14 YEAR HISTORY! PAGE HIT 675,406,736 VIEWS FROM 129,922,878 VISITS... TRAFFIC ROSE 21% FOR MONTH OVER YEAR AGO [+39% OVER JUNE 2007]...


And last week EVERY one of the top 10 cable news programs was on......wait for it........Fox News. So maybe people with the right mindset are finally paying attention as they see their freedoms and cash eroding with every new day. It is quite possible that the sleeping bear has been kicked in the balls and is now ready for some meat, if the Pubbies realize it and capitalize on it they will be very happy campers in 10 and 12. And the Dems have a huge complacency problem now as their peeps figure they have it all sewn up so they can get back to paying attention to Jerry Springer and the Michael Jackson saga.

[fund razor]

In retrospect, it's easy to see what a crappy pick Agnew was, but I don't remember him melting down in real time like palin.

It's been a long time, and I admit that politics wasn't high on my priority list back then, but I don't remember Agnew doing the kind of stupid stuff that palin has done, at least not DURING the campaign. He may have been corrupt as all hell, but it seems like he knew the basics of politics. to me, palin comes across as a small-minded moron in high heels.

Maybe you had to live in Maryland where the Agnew bribe taking started?

Of course, I don't remember 24/7 news outlets and continous live punditry in 1972. We had one half-hour national news broadcast, one local paper, one New York Times and Sunday morning Meet the Press. Occasional evening news special reports, like the coverage of the 1972 conventions on CBS 9pm special report.

It made it hard to see anyone "melt down in real time." ;)

Although I do remember Alexander Haig's comments that "he was in charge here" on live TV March 30, 1981. :)

[Chris]

Aside from being "ethically challenged", Agnew is the prototype of the kind of VP this country needs. Especially if you've got dirtywork to do. He was one tough SOB and as the GOP hitman, he did a superb job. I wouldn't have wanted him taking an interest in me.

[MarylandMark]

The only option seems to be constant slamming of the administration as they try to clean up the catastrophes left behind by bushco.

The blame it on Bush excuse has been run in to the ground. This is OBAMA's economy now; bought and paid for by the US tax payer (all the while selling our shores to China but they don't even want us any more).

[jayboat]

Maybe you had to live in Maryland where the Agnew bribe taking started?

Of course, I don't remember 24/7 news outlets and continous live punditry in 1972. We had one half-hour national news broadcast, one local paper, one New York Times and Sunday morning Meet the Press. Occasional evening news special reports, like the coverage of the 1972 conventions on CBS 9pm special report.

It made it hard to see anyone "melt down in real time." ;)

Although I do remember Alexander Haig's comments that "he was in charge here" on live TV March 30, 1981. :)

Good point- I was gonna say something about the diff in the news cycle as well, but I can't spend all day on a political thread. :) The larger point was that Agnew was a politician and palin is a dipsh!t.

That Haig moment was an all-time classic, thanks for the reminder.

[jayboat]

The blame it on Bush excuse has been run in to the ground. This is OBAMA's economy now; bought and paid for by the US tax payer (all the while selling our shores to China but they don't even want us any more).

Just because yer tired of hearin it markymark, does not make it any less true.

[Chris]

Haig was an OK guy. And I was reassured to know that with the president having just been shot, someone was going to take action.

[Geronimo36]

Just because yer tired of hearin it markymark, does not make it any less true.

Half the crap with the economy that came as a result of Bush can be atributed to Clinton and even further down the line... re: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, mergers/aquisitions, special interest groups, lobbyists etc.... No one person or administration is/was responsible... It was a "bubble" run by GREED that ruined our economy and everyone had a part from the TOP all the way DOWN!:(:willy_nilly:

[Ratickle]

Half the crap with the economy that came as a result of Bush can be atributed to Clinton and even further down the line... re: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, mergers/aquisitions, special interest groups, lobbyists etc.... No one person or administration is/was responsible... It was a "bubble" run by GREED that ruined our economy and everyone had a part from the TOP all the way DOWN!:(:willy_nilly:

Yep, let's not forget how this thread got started. It is no single person or party. It is dang near all of them.....

[MarylandMark]

Back in March:

President Barack Obama.....called for an end to finger-pointing and challenged Congress to offer constructive changes.


"With the magnitude of the challenges we face right now, what we need in Washington are not more political tactics, we need more good ideas"


"We don't need more point scoring, we need more problem solving


The American people sent us here to get things done, Let's pass a budget that puts this nation on the road to lasting prosperity."

Since then? Finger pointing.....


http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-BarackObama/idUKTRE52G3OX20090319

[Ratickle]

Back in March:

President Barack Obama.....called for an end to finger-pointing and challenged Congress to offer constructive changes.

Since then? Finger pointing.....

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-BarackObama/idUKTRE52G3OX20090319

You know he only means

"Don't question my budget or I'll call it finger pointing"......


3.5 trillion :ack2:

[Ratickle]

The larger point was that Agnew was a politician and palin is a dipsh!t.



I don't get it Jay. What difference does it make? Were you planning on voting for McCain if he had chosen more wisely? If so, I can understand your disappointment.

I am not a Palin fan for a possible Presidential spot. Way way over her head. So what? She's a governor who seems to do okay for her state. Much, much better than Granholm has done for ours.....

And they discuss Granholm as a possible Supreme Court Candidate or Auto Czar...:ack2:

[Tommy Gun]

Bottom line is that our politicians suck and we're all screwed if we can't live within our means; this includes the fed's, the states and every one of us. We simply cannot survive with all these social programs and handouts; as honorable as they may be we can't afford it. Lets start with securing the borders and passing a balanced budget ammendment.

[BBB725]

Tommy Gun for President!!:26:

[BUIZILLA]

but I can't spend all day on a political thread. :) really now...


In retrospect, it's easy to see what a crappy pick Agnew was, but I don't remember him melting down in real time like palin.

to me, palin comes across as a small-minded moron in high heels. you sure have a consistent and real BLATANT disrespect for women in general... keep in mind she's a GOV of a State in the US Union, an approved and earned voter distinction, something you've never achieved..


It's just the initial fallout started by the Palin piece yesterday on VanityFair.com, and already it reads like the start of a nuclear war between some of the high-level strategists from the mclame campaign.
so now you equate nukes with Palin...


If people want to sit around in a comments section and repeat the same chit to each other so they feel good about themselves- let em. I got better things to do with my time. remember this quote of yours, since your the documented poster boy of political posting, regurgitating, and bashing on SOS...

when you, at the very least, achieve a job that has the responsibility level that Palin does, let us all know..

I know, I know, your secretly in lust for Pelosi, so you have to perpetually pick on a person with far more character, integrity, and womanly traits... that's what women haters do.. just ask your shrink..

[jayboat]

I don't get it Jay. What difference does it make? Were you planning on voting for McCain if he had chosen more wisely? If so, I can understand your disappointment.

I am not a Palin fan for a possible Presidential spot. Way way over her head. So what? She's a governor who seems to do okay for her state. Much, much better than Granholm has done for ours.....

And they discuss Granholm as a possible Supreme Court Candidate or Auto Czar...:ack2:

I don't particularly care for sociopaths, Paul.

And for some reason, it felt personal- the blatant lies, all the lipstick on the pig. totally rubbed me the wrong way- it was like after 8 years of bush and cheney and rumsfeld's lies, here were these hacks doing the exact same bs and expecting everyone to swallow it. his choice was an absolute slap in the face to any sane person, regardless of party affiliation.

Do a little research and you will see that she HAS NOT 'done okay' for her state. (but Alaska politics is a different kind of animal than the other 49). Purdum's article has some interesting info on the workings of the state govt.

Granholm's kinda hot, I'd hit it. (sorry, couldn't resist)

The other thing, I will admit, is a special feeling I have for social conservative religious whackos in general. It's something I've been very consistent with most of my life.

Here's an email from a Sullivan reader that sums up a part of it (for fundy)

Part of Sarah Palin's irresistible appeal to her fundamentalist base is her ability to look at the camera with utter conviction and declare black to be white.

The ability to lie well is a valuable part of the fundamentalist psychology. My son isn't gay, he just hasn't found the right woman! Those rocks aren't 50 million years old, they just look like it as a test of our faith! My sexless marriage isn't foundering, it is filled with God's spirit! The minister isn't molesting little Maria, they're just very close! It isn't torture, it is being tough on terrorists!

Fundamentalists can recognize a truly audacious and talented liar from miles away. Instead of running the other way, as you might expect, they gather around the powerful liar, for they know that their own lies will be respected and protected by a leader who understands the paramount importance of preserving their whole system of denial.

[jayboat]

...

[OldSchool]

Welcome back Jay!!!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Ratickle]

Welcome back Jay!!!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I agree....

Jay, you can't honestly believe that it isn't the exact same talent that has made Ex Pres Clinton very popular with the opposite leaners.....


"Here's an email from a Sullivan reader that sums up a part of it

Part of Sarah Palin's irresistible appeal to her fundamentalist base is her ability to look at the camera with utter conviction and declare black to be white."

[Ratickle]

I can't believe you think either one of them fit the sociopath criteria....

The American Psychiatric Association estimates that over 3% of males in our society are sociopaths (Franzoi 2000).

Sociopaths are extremely selfish and egocentric, leaving them only to care about themselves, their needs and desires.

A sociopath warps those that he/she comes into contact with into objects that they can potentially use to fulfill a goal or sense of gratification.

Their goals are generally sexually in nature (www.wright.edu). They will not stop until they get the pleasure and gratification they desire.

[fund razor]

Here's an email from a Sullivan reader that sums up a part of it (for fundy)

Part of Sarah Palin's irresistible appeal to her fundamentalist base is her ability to look at the camera with utter conviction and declare black to be white.

The ability to lie well is a valuable part of the fundamentalist psychology. My son isn't gay, he just hasn't found the right woman! Those rocks aren't 50 million years old, they just look like it as a test of our faith! My sexless marriage isn't foundering, it is filled with God's spirit! The minister isn't molesting little Maria, they're just very close! It isn't torture, it is being tough on terrorists!

Fundamentalists can recognize a truly audacious and talented liar from miles away. Instead of running the other way, as you might expect, they gather around the powerful liar, for they know that their own lies will be respected and protected by a leader who understands the paramount importance of preserving their whole system of denial.

Gosh Jay. Thanks for the dedication. Like Craig says.... welcome back. :seeya:

[fund razor]

I can't believe you think either one of them fit the sociopath criteria....

The American Psychiatric Association estimates that over 3% of males in our society are sociopaths (Franzoi 2000).

Sociopaths are extremely selfish and egocentric, leaving them only to care about themselves, their needs and desires.

A sociopath warps those that he/she comes into contact with into objects that they can potentially use to fulfill a goal or sense of gratification.

Their goals are generally sexually in nature (www.wright.edu). They will not stop until they get the pleasure and gratification they desire.

There are more sociopaths and not all are sexually motivated. Some are power motivated and use manipulation much more than sex. The detachment caused by the decrease of personal contact and erosion of direct social relation is contributing to a system societal increase in sociopathic tendencies.

[Ratickle]

There are more sociopaths and not all are sexually motivated. Some are power motivated and use manipulation much more than sex. The detachment caused by the diminishing of personal contact and direct social relation is contributing to a system societal increase in sociopathic tendencies.
-me

:sifone:

You're not supposed to help Jay. He does fine on his own.....:)

[fund razor]

I wouldn't be broke if not for Chris. :)

[Chris]

I wouldn't be broke if not for Chris. :)

Yeah- me too.

[Expensive Date]

What started this thread Goldman Sachs has more control over the economy than any president ever will.

[Expensive Date]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/June-jobless-rate-seen-rising-apf-749843235.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

Not good

[jayboat]

I agree....

Jay, you can't honestly believe that it isn't the exact same talent that has made Ex Pres Clinton very popular with the opposite leaners.....


"Here's an email from a Sullivan reader that sums up a part of it

Part of Sarah Palin's irresistible appeal to her fundamentalist base is her ability to look at the camera with utter conviction and declare black to be white."

Come on, man. Clinton was doin' it specifically tryin to get out of a 'situation', palin tells her stupid lies for no apparent reason. (read the damn vanity fair article, willya?)

he probly woulda got away with it, too, had it not been for linda tripp. (see Sanford, Mark.)

[jayboat]

Gosh Jay. Thanks for the dedication. Like Craig says.... welcome back. :seeya:

Don't get too happy, either of ya. :cuss:

I've had enough of this 'dialog' in one day on this one thread to last me for a while. :grouphug:

[Ratickle]

Don't get too happy, either of ya. :cuss:

I've had enough of this 'dialog' in one day on this one thread to last me for a while. :grouphug:

I'll say the same thing I always say.

Get past the person, look at the policies and issues. There is a reason Franks was appointed by Obama to head an area he caused a lot of the issues in and bilked for millions to his own personal coffers. Either Obama owed him, or someone else Obama owed told him too. The guy should have been put in jail.

As far as Palin goes, if she is on the next ticket, they'll lose again.

What I'm really concerned with. What policy changes and improvements have we made to get us out of this mess? My observasion, we've made it worse by far.

[Ratickle]

Don't get too happy, either of ya. :cuss:

I've had enough of this 'dialog' in one day on this one thread to last me for a while. :grouphug:

ANd what the heck you doing up at 2 in the morning?????:seeya:

[Ratickle]

What started this thread Goldman Sachs has more control over the economy than any president ever will.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/June-jobless-rate-seen-rising-apf-749843235.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

Not good

Correct. The question for the experts though, since the government has seized the tobacco industry, the automotive industry, the credit industry, the banking industry, already has the military/defense industry, and is working oin the health care industry. Will they then have the control they want? Or will they seize the transportation industry when YRC goes under in a couple months???

And many see it extending into 2013 before any increase is seen.

[Chris]

I like Sarah Palin. But I don't want her to be president.

I think many people like Sarah Palin because of her appearance, demeanor and personality. I mean, she'd be a great next-door neighbor or pal for my wife.

But unfortunately, we elect presidents on TV now. And they need to have that TV star quality. Can you imagine Abraham Lincoln being elected president today?

More than a few major recording artists lost their careers when MTV hit the airwaves- people saw them, found out they had a face for radio and stopped listening. If I no longer want to hear your music, how likely am I to want you running my country?

[Ted]

Palin has a huge hold on the hard right conservatives that McCain had virtually no traction with. She energized that part and that energy brought SOME of the middling Pubbies up too. It was a calculation on his people's part that ended up causing issues because they did not do their homework and did not have any idea how viscerally the press would attack her. If she does not at least have a place at the table with the Reps. she could cause huge problems down the road. If they learn that it is a loser to be Dem lite and take real conservative principles back to the people like the Contract for America did, they will do just fine, and she can still have a place in the party.

[Offshoredrillin]

Palin has a huge hold on the hard right conservatives that McCain had virtually no traction with. She energized that part and that energy brought SOME of the middling Pubbies up too. It was a calculation on his people's part that ended up causing issues because they did not do their homework and did not have any idea how viscerally the press would attack her. If she does not at least have a place at the table with the Reps. she could cause huge problems down the road. If they learn that it is a loser to be Dem lite and take real conservative principles back to the people like the Contract for America did, they will do just fine, and she can still have a place in the party.

I would agree with all this, what I'm seeing and I think we all are, is that the free thinkers seem to becoming more outspoken and are pulling away from the parties and trying to do whats right, hopefully on both sides it will make congress listen before we fall apart.

I also agree with what Tommy posted about the spend spend of the Gov. if they didn't learn anything from this housing bubble and all the Madoff/bankers stealing is that we cant prop up the US on credit. I hope this administration figures it out before it is too late.

[TCEd]

[QUOTE=Ratickle;259093]Nixon was not impeached. He resigned...


The only modern day President to be impeached was Clinton....[/QUO

My error.
ed

[Geronimo36]

My error.
ed

And later acquitted by the Senate. :leaving:

[Ratickle]

And later acquitted by the Senate. :leaving:

In law, the same thing as found guilty by the jury and pardoned by the judge. Still impeached....

[jayboat]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/June-jobless-rate-seen-rising-apf-749843235.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

Not good

Agreed. More worrisome analysis from the Economist here. (http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2009/07/tracking_the_jobless_recovery.cfm)

Money quote: If the recovery continues to be jobless, it may cease to be recovery.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2011570ac5eeb970c-800wi


ANd what the heck you doing up at 2 in the morning?????:seeya:
worryin about my economy.

[jayboat]

In law, the same thing as found guilty by the jury and pardoned by the judge. Still impeached....

for a blowjob, or trying to cover one up with a lie about it.

much more serious than lying us into an unnecessary war. :ack2:

[Ratickle]

for a blowjob, or trying to cover one up with a lie about it.

much more serious than lying us into an unnecessary war. :ack2:

It was just a fact, not a judgement......:sifone:


The one thing I don't like about the job market currently.

There are several major specialists who say the current job loss/unemployment numbers are being manipulated by falsifications.

IE; they are not counting anyone working part-time or anyone not working whose unemployment has run out.

Some are saying, measuring the way we did during the great depression, we would have already surpassed their numbers.

[Ratickle]

for a blowjob, or trying to cover one up with a lie about it.

much more serious than lying us into an unnecessary war. :ack2:

Nice picture by the way....:sifone: :sifone: :sifone:

[Ratickle]

And the one thing on your graph I wish someone would pay attention to:

The new Congress, (controlled by the liberals), was sworn in early January 2008.

They immediately made dumb changes to laws for businesses.

The loss of jobs started exactly at that time and has not improved one little bit, but continued in a free fall.......

[BBB725]

Lets just hope the Senate stops the Cap and Trade bill, if not it will completely destroy the economy.

[jayboat]

It was just a fact, not a judgement......:sifone:


I don't care, it still pizzes me off every time I see it. :willy_nilly:



The one thing I don't like about the job market currently.

There are several major specialists who say the current job loss/unemployment numbers are being manipulated by falsifications.

IE; they are not counting anyone working part-time or anyone not working whose unemployment has run out.

Some are saying, measuring the way we did during the great depression, we would have already surpassed their numbers.

Yep- so many pundits can't be bothered with truthful, in-depth analysis. Stay on the surface- it's sooo much easier that way.

Here's a decent overview with good links that help put it in perspective. (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/2/749152/-Official-Unemployment-Hits-9.5) (Kos alert) Not many bright spots. :(

A couple of the commenters seem to know what they are talking about:

Yeah the turnaround is probably going to be pretty slow. But one reason that it'll be slow has more to do with how our economy is structured than anything else. More specifically:

In 1974, the job recovery took 19 months; in 1981, 28 months; in 1991, 32 months; in 2001, 47 months.

The obvious conclusion: we recover more slowly. But the question is why? The reason is that back in '74, we were largely a manufacturing driven economy. In manufacturing, if the economy hits the skids, you see this reflected in rising unsold inventory. So when that happens you idle plants and temporarily lay off workers that aren't needed in an idle plant.

Once the unsold inventory is sold, then you rehire the same people you just laid off because they have the skills and knowledge to work those positions in your plant. So when you lay people off, unless it's so bad that you are shutting down the plant entirely, you generally end up hiring them right back a few months down the road.

Of course as you see things have gotten worse, largely because we're a service economy. The service economy is driven by general business activity, rather than inventory. Furthermore, there's greater flexibility in terms of how many staff you need to do a given amount of work. So layoffs tend to have greater permanence in a service economy.

So a manufacturing sees quick drops in employment followed by quick returns to full employment once plants come back online. In the service sector, the drops are more gradual, but the return to full employment takes a lot longer.

*

Any system with stable money supply and falling employment is proofed against inflation.

The basics are so obvious. We do financial economics, which is total overkill for understanding the reality. Here's the simple model for What Bush Did To Us:

Free money after 9/11 led house prices in our area to inflate to 3 times what they had been a decade ago. Foreign money came in like the Nile in a pre-Anwar flood.

Wages in this area -- Manhattan/Northern Jersey -- stayed the same except for the various Wall Street RICO operations.

Now, wages are falling rapidly. Foreign investment is no more. Housing prices are falling, of course, but no where near fast enough to match the wage/investment fall. At this rate it will take 5 years for houses to reach normal wage-driven price levels.

These antisocial/paranoid sell-outs wanna cry/whine/lie about "inflation" ??? Serving what rational economic interest ???

If its the banks thinking they're gonna win with this nonsense, they're damn fools. These national banks are going to get themselves nationalized, as in taken over lock-stock-and-barrel. They cannot survive another year of falling employment, plus the killer: unsound currency.

God-effin'-damn these characters such as Morris and the bank-shills in Congress are dishonest. There's no sense to it, no way.

Best analogy I can think of right off: a combo of Rev. Jim Jones and Bernie Madoff. Lie, cheat, steal and do their damnedest to kill everybody. Out of simple incompetence at junior-year financial economics.

[Ted]

Always with the BDS, no wonder they are so loonie.