Lake St Clair Boating Accident

[ChiefApache]

http://www.freep.com/article/20090621/NEWS05/90621023/Man+missing+in+Lake+St.+Clair+after+2+boats+crash+

[Ratickle]

http://www.newsrunner.com/display-article/?eUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.macombdaily.com%2Farticles%2F2009%2F06%2F22%2Fnews%2 Fsrv0000005657857.txt&eSrc=The+Macomb+Daily+-+Mount+Clemens+MI&eTitle=Man+killed+when+two+boats+collide

[Ratickle]

Here is everything found so far.

Too bad, :(


http://www.newsrunner.com/topic/nation/224974565/0

[ChiefApache]

I will never understand why any on-line newspaper allows an article such as this to have reader comments. Many are just nasty, mean and looking to push buttons type people. Not necessary at all for any paper.

[Ratickle]

I will never understand why any on-line newspaper allows an article such as this to have reader comments. Many are just nasty, mean and looking to push buttons type people. Not necessary at all for any paper.

Their advertisers pay amounts based on their hits and circulation....

[MattBMiller]

The two boats involved in this accident were rafted right behind me at the Beach Grill less than an hour before the accident happened. Very tragic. My condolences to the families. RIP.

One of the boats was being towed in Sunday morning as I idled out of the channel in front of the restaurant and through the search area. Very eerie feeling.

[Chris]

Drunk boating at night without jackets. What could go wrong?

[ChiefApache]

I hate running at night. Just sleep on your boat and leave in the morning. It's not worth it.

[Chris]

I will never understand why any on-line newspaper allows an article such as this to have reader comments. Many are just nasty, mean and looking to push buttons type people. Not necessary at all for any paper.

Newspapaers at this point are thankful if anyone even remembers they exist. They live for this sort of drama. I think we're just a hop and a skip away from them all becoming local versions of the tabloids. They've got nowhere else to go.

[MattBMiller]

I hate running at night. Just sleep on your boat and leave in the morning. It's not worth it.

I refuse to run at night, especially if I've had a few drinks. I'll gladly pay the $1 a foot to stay on the seawall.

[ChiefApache]

Newspapaers at this point are thankful if anyone even remembers they exist. They live for this sort of drama. I think we're just a hop and a skip away from them all becoming local versions of the tabloids. They've got nowhere else to go.

Disgusting. Then again, I don't need to read the comments either. :confused:

[ChiefApache]

I refuse to run at night, especially if I've had a few drinks. I'll gladly pay the $1 a foot to stay on the seawall.

I'm with you Matt. It's one thing to idle from one dock to another where we dock, but it's a whole different thing running.

[Ms PatriYacht]

Here is a little more info.
On the Lake St Clair website, someone said that they two boat owners were friends and were in a fight and racing, but this is not a fact just what someone else said.

From what Matt said about them being rafted together I was thinking they were probably friends. We have spent the night on the wall at Jacks instead of going out on the lake in the dark, especially after drinking.


By Mitch Hotts, Macomb Daily Staff Writer

A horrific collision between two power boats leaving a St. Clair Shores marina early Sunday left one boater dead and several of the survivors screaming in the dark for help as they clung to one of the wrecked vessels on Lake St. Clair.

Authorities recovered the body of 28-year-old Timothy Albert Moravcik of Chesterfield Township about 1 p.m. Sunday, approximately 12 hours after the crash took place one mile east of 10 Mile Road and Jefferson.

"It was a pretty intense collision," said Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel. "The engines of both vessels were knocked loose and found in 12 feet of water. One boat sank and the other began drifting away."

Investigators said speed and alcohol were likely a factor in the 1:30 a.m. incident.

Four of the boaters were taken to St. John Hospital in Detroit for treatment and two were treated on scene and released. Moravcik's girlfriend was the most

seriously injured and was reported to be in critical but stable condition.

According to Macomb sheriff and U.S. Coast Guard officials, Moravcik and his girlfriend were in a 22-foot Chris Craft while five friends of the couple were in a 24-foot Cheetah leaving the Jefferson Beach Marina area when the crash occurred.

It's not clear how the two boats collided or how fast each was traveling, investigators said.

For some reason, the two vessels had a violent collision, ejecting all of the occupants into the water and scattering debris about.

Moravcik, who was not wearing a life vest, likely was knocked unconscious and the remaining people were able to swim to one of the boats that was still afloat. One of them dialed 911 on a cell phone, which went to the St. Clair Shores Police Department and help was dispatched.

As Coast Guard boats and helicopters responded to the area, the boaters yelled in the darkness to attract attention and were eventually rescued. Also, several Good Samaritan boaters in the area attempted to provide assistance.

As the Macomb County Sheriff's Marine Patrol arrived, a side-scan sonar was used as part of the search effort. As daylight broke, six divers entered the lake to search for the victim's body.

Lt. Zackary Ford of the U.S. Coast Guard said divers were fortunate because the 64-degree lake water was calm and winds were light.

"From a search and rescue viewpoint, all of the agencies involved gave a great coordinated effort which helped us to locate the body of this young man relatively quickly," Ford said.

Once the body was brought ashore, the victim's parents were able to make positive identification, officials said.

The family has asked for privacy and did not wish to speak with the media.

Sunday's incident was the worst boating accident on Lake St. Clair since three people were killed in May 2008 after their power boat crashed into a 120-foot barge that was docked in the lake near the mouth of the Clinton River.

Ford said Sunday's accident underscores the need to use great caution on the waterways, especially at night.

"The big message is that unfortunate situations can pop up when you least expect it. Make sure your life jackets and equipment are functioning because terrible things can happen on the seas," Ford said.

Hackel agreed.

"Nighttime operation is much harder than daytime," he said. "Depth perception and visibility come into play in the evening. You have to be mindful of what is in the water that you may not be able to clearly see."

[MattBMiller]

On the Lake St Clair website, someone said that they two boat owners were friends and were in a fight and racing, but this is not a fact just what someone else said.

I heard they were fighting as well. I didn't see it first hand and didnt' want to start rumors, but another boater that was there mentioned it to me.

[ChiefApache]

I heard they were fighting as well. I didn't see it first hand and didnt' want to start rumors, but another boater that was there mentioned it to me.

Ahhh, the joys of drinking........very sad if so.

[RLJ676]

This is a very sad story to start the summer.:(




I refuse to run at night, especially if I've had a few drinks. I'll gladly pay the $1 a foot to stay on the seawall.

Do most of the on the water bars allow this, as it seems like the best idea to me?

[MattBMiller]

This is a very sad story to start the summer.:(





Do most of the on the water bars allow this, as it seems like the best idea to me?

Most places do. For some reason The Beach Grill does not. I stay on the wall at Jacks quite a bit, they usually don't even charge.

[RLJ676]

Most places do. For some reason The Beach Grill does not. I stay on the wall at Jacks quite a bit, they usually don't even charge.

I didn't think Beach Grill did, but wasn't sure. I know I've seen them toss the boats out after the white party, but wasn't sure on normal days. Glad to hear the others are more reasonable. Honestly, it seems like you open up to liabilities by telling someone who's had to much they can't stay tied up?

[MattBMiller]

I didn't think Beach Grill did, but wasn't sure. I know I've seen them toss the boats out after the white party, but wasn't sure on normal days. Glad to hear the others are more reasonable. Honestly, it seems like you open up to liabilities by telling someone who's had to much they can't stay tied up?

They told us we ahd to leave that night, that's why I went back over to Jacks to stay. I'll remember that next time I decide where I'm spending my money.

[RLJ676]

They told us we ahd to leave that night, that's why I went back over to Jacks to stay. I'll remember that next time I decide where I'm spending my money.


I'm with you on that.

These bars should definitely see accidents like this and realize keeping people at the docks is the right thing to do. Not saying these guys would have tried to overnight there, but the option should be there.

[07DominatorSS]

I hate running at night. Just sleep on your boat and leave in the morning. It's not worth it.

Rumor has it, the bar threw everyone off the wall, and would not allow anyone to stay overnight!

[ChiefApache]

Rumor has it, the bar threw everyone off the wall, and would not allow anyone to stay overnight!

I'm not trying to start anything here, but how can the bar enforce this? And why? Is there access to their business property that people can steal?

We have a floating barge in our area. There is no overnighting, however we have stayed there because we've had too much to drink. We've never been told "you must leave" and if they did, it would be worth the argument with the CG or water officials IMO.

[Tony]

Posted this on Pirates a few minutes ago. The bar shoulnt be responsible in any way shape or form for the actions of its patrons. They could have been made to leave due to some form of liability or another.

For instance, Shooters in Cleveland doesnt allow overnight docking becase shipping traffic is a potential threat to any vessel tied there overnight. imagine being asleep in the cabin and crushed alive by a stray barge. Every last party involved would be sued.

[Chris]

We live in a world where bartenders and owners have been successfully sued for selling a drink to a drunken patron that later suffers a mishap. Who wants to be this becomes a part of a wrongful death lawsuit.

If a guy will drive home drunk rather than paying for a cab and having to deal with getting his car in the morning, what kind of barrier is it if he's got to have his boat towed away by SeaTow?

[FULL FORCE]

I hate running at night. Just sleep on your boat and leave in the morning. It's not worth it.

I enjoy running at night from the Casino to my marina, I would usually head back Sat nights witht he boat (not drunk) but with all the accidents lately, I plan to just stay put unless I HAVE to leave now, plus I hate the windshield light on the new boat it blinds me!! I have not moved it to the back like yours yet!

I hate to hear about accidents and after my "almost electrical fire" I am a tad more aware of anything can happen out there!!

[ChiefApache]

I enjoy running at night from the Casino to my marina

It's most likely just me, but in my 6 years of boating and the handful of times we've run at night, I am so scared to death that Rob is ready to smack me before we reach the marina with my idle chit chat and asking him to slow down to almost nothing.

I find zero joy in running at night and all that runs through my mind is what if there is a boat without it's lights on? What if there is a log in the water? What if, what if, what if??

Just not enjoyable whatsoever for me, regardless of whose boat I am in.

[FULL FORCE]

It's most likely just me, but in my 6 years of boating and the handful of times we've run at night, I am so scared to death that Rob is ready to smack me before we reach the marina with my idle chit chat and asking him to slow down to almost nothing.

I find zero joy in running at night and all that runs through my mind is what if there is a boat without it's lights on? What if there is a log in the water? What if, what if, what if??

Just not enjoyable whatsoever for me, regardless of whose boat I am in.

After running back to Mentor with you guys last year.... it is DARK out there!! By me in Marblehead is way better lit and I can see very well... but like I said with allt he accidents lately, I want to stay put more often now...

[ChiefApache]

After running back to Mentor with you guys last year.... it is DARK out there!! By me in Marblehead is way better lit and I can see very well... but like I said with allt he accidents lately, I want to stay put more often now...

I do agree there are lights in your area. Most often it's pitch black at night on the lake.

[VtSteve]

I own a bar... And trust me if I let someone leave my bar at night that I know is drunk and don't make the attemt to recomend a taxi, then he goes out and there is a fatality. By By liquor license.

Usually only in fatalities are bars liable.

As someone that has just gotten through a 15 year process for shutting down a DRAM shop carrier, I can tell you this. Fights in bars, accidents after over serving, even seemingly unrelated incidents can hurt you bad as the owner. It's a pretty regular occurrence nowadays that many boaters have been drinking out on the water, then start drinking at a bar afterwards. The liability is huge, and on the water, lots can happen.

One crash on the water after drinking will ruin you life. No more boats, cars, insurance, and you very might well end up in jail, penniless, or dead. The thing that worries me most now, is that being sober on the lake doesn't protect you from those that are not, especially at night. I love night boating, and wish this wasn't so. But I've now seen quite a few party hearty on the lake after dark, some with their lights off :eek: Scared the crap outta me.

At the present rate of accidents the last three years, I expect more than just a crackdown. Unfortunately, it will ruin many an innocent good time, just as always.

When in the boat or car at any time, day or night, think about who's next to you that has entrusted their lives with your judgement.

[LaughingCat]

Let's not call the bar. They rarely let people sleep in their cars. Why should we expect them to let people sleep on the boats. Maybe they will change their policy. but if two people were drunk and beligerant, they probably didn't want them loitering around the sea-wall/dock all night without someone watching over the bar., If fighting was involved, it seems logical to make them leave.

It doesn't mean the bar told them to drive drunk, just leave. So let's not call the bar.

[Chris]

The underlying theme here is that it's not the bar's fault. People are solely and exclusively responsible for their own behavior. If you can't handle your booze, don't drink. If you want to do anything other than drink, don't drink. That includes, driving a car or a boat, felling trees with a chainsaw, discussing religion or politics, etc.

[Wobble]

It's most likely just me, but in my 6 years of boating and the handful of times we've run at night, I am so scared to death that Rob is ready to smack me before we reach the marina with my idle chit chat and asking him to slow down to almost nothing.

I find zero joy in running at night and all that runs through my mind is what if there is a boat without it's lights on? What if there is a log in the water? What if, what if, what if??

Just not enjoyable whatsoever for me, regardless of whose boat I am in.

The last time I was on Lake Conroe. I worked on a buddies broken boat until after dark then we headed back to the Hotel at minimum planing speed.

I would have landed right in the middle of a pontoon boat full of people if hadn't seen a red light next to his ignition key, no nav lights.

I realized then that it just was not worth it.

I do occasionally make an exception for full moons though.

[BraceYourself]

Deleted my prior post.

I usually always stay where I'm drinking. Just got the feeling the bar made them leave. 10 different stories so I'll just stay out of this.

[phragle]

this is what happens to the happy boater when he goes too fast and discovers a piling...........

[Expensive Date]

[QUOTE=Chris;252448] People are solely and exclusively responsible for their own behavior.

Chris this is America we don't have responsibility here,next you will be saying that people that make 35K a year should not have 500k houses and interest only mortgages:)

[PatriYacht]

I'm another one who hates boating at night. Maybe if it's a full moon, but otherwise, I'm staying at the dock.

[RLJ676]

Let's not call the bar. They rarely let people sleep in their cars. Why should we expect them to let people sleep on the boats. Maybe they will change their policy. but if two people were drunk and beligerant, they probably didn't want them loitering around the sea-wall/dock all night without someone watching over the bar., If fighting was involved, it seems logical to make them leave.

It doesn't mean the bar told them to drive drunk, just leave. So let's not call the bar.

What bars typically won't let you sleep in your car? I know plenty of people who've passed out in their cars outside of a bar.

If you are in a boat made to overnight, and tied up (not in a channel) safely, isn't it a little rediculous to make you leave if you've had too much to drink? If they are a disturbance, CALL THE COPS. I'll take a night in the klink over what happened to these guys!!!! Overall, I think the policy is bad.

Once a bar decides to make their money selling booze, they ARE RESPONSIBLE for more than you or I with their customers. That is the entire point of a liquor license, isn't it? Doesn't mean they have to go out of their way to protect you from yourself, but forcing/encouraging people to boat off drunk sure doesn't seem right.

This is all hypothetical, I don't know the actual circumstances of this case.

[Ms PatriYacht]

[QUOTE=VtSteve;252410]As someone that has just gotten through a 15 year process for shutting down a DRAM shop carrier, I can tell you this. Fights in bars, accidents after over serving, even seemingly unrelated incidents can hurt you bad as the owner. QUOTE]

what is a DRAM shop carrier?????


Bars don't always know who has been over-served, some places are large and crowded, you get served by more than one BT, people buy drinks for one another, people often drink elsewhere first and everyone's tolerance and behavior when impared is different.

We had two guys on our boat recently. They got to the marina at 10:00, started drinking at 11:00 AM By the time they left at 9:00 PM they must have had over 24 bottles of beer each. They consumed some they brought, bought beers at 4 different establishments and drank some of our's. If I had not seen how much each had drank I would have sworn that they had nothing or almost nothing. I am sure if they walked into a 5th bar and asked for another drink no one would have refused them. I feel for the bars because there are times when I am sure they have no clue how much their customers have had to drink. I have no idea of the case in point here, but if you are not showing outright drunk systems, how can a bartender be expected to know who is over the limit and who is not. I am sure most of you know people that appear to have a wooden leg when it comes to alcohol.

[Ms PatriYacht]

With respect to the Beach Grill their wall is not that wide. However the BG is located in a large marina called Jefferson Beach, they have transient wells and due to the economy empty slips. If the boaters wanted to I am sure they could have spent the night at the marina. Also just outside the marina, before you have to go on plane, is another bar called Jacks, there is a a huge seawall and also a Marina that you can stay at overnight. Because there are so many options at idle speed, the Beach Grill would not feel compelled to have people spending the night at what little space they have. Something tells me these guys had no intention on spending the night on their boat, the boats were small and each had several passengers. They were young kids in their 20's, most kids that age feel invincible, yet don't have enough life experiences to make them think in advance about the consequences for reckless behavior.

[ChiefApache]

:26:
We had two guys on our boat recently. They got to the marina at 10:00, started drinking at 11:00 AM By the time they left at 9:00 PM they must have had over 24 bottles of beer each. They consumed some they brought, bought beers at 4 different establishments and drank some of our's. If I had not seen how much each had drank I would have sworn that they had nothing or almost nothing. I am sure if they walked into a 5th bar and asked for another drink no one would have refused them.

Fundy......nice to hear you're well behaved on other people's boats! :biggrinjester::rofl::biggrinjester:

[ChiefApache]

With respect to the Beach Grill their wall is not that wide. However the BG is located in a large marina called Jefferson Beach, they have transient wells and due to the economy empty slips. If the boaters wanted to I am sure they could have spent the night at the marina. Also just outside the marina, before you have to go on plane, is another bar called Jacks, there is a a huge seawall and also a Marina that you can stay at overnight. Because there are so many options at idle speed, the Beach Grill would not feel compelled to have people spending the night at what little space they have. Something tells me these guys had no intention on spending the night on their boat, the boats were small and each had several passengers. They were young kids in their 20's, most kids that age feel invincible, yet don't have enough life experiences to make them think in advance about the consequences for reckless behavior.

7 peoploe, two boats. They had no intentions of spending the night anywhere. This is not the bars fault.

[Ms PatriYacht]

:rofl::rofl:Believe or not it was not Fund, a friend from home and his friend

[ChiefApache]

:rofl::rofl:Believe or not it was not Fund, a friend from home and his friend

He was just an easy target sweetie! I figured it wasn't him. But I knew he was on your boat a few weeks ago and he's on ours this weekend. I have to bust on him every now and then. :biggrinjester::reddevil:

[Ms PatriYacht]

He was just an easy target sweetie! I figured it wasn't him. But I knew he was on your boat a few weeks ago and he's on ours this weekend. I have to bust on him every now and then. :biggrinjester::reddevil:

boy that fund gets around, at this rate he will rack up more hours on the water than me:biggrinjester: he might even decide he likes boat ho'ing and wait till next year to finish the Apache:ack2:

[ChiefApache]

boy that fund gets around, at this rate he will rack up more hours on the water than me:biggrinjester: he might even decide he likes boat ho'ing and wait till next year to finish the Apache:ack2:

Let's hope that's not the case, but hey, might as well have fun, right?

[Ms PatriYacht]

Exactly what I said in an earlier post Donna. 7 people, two boats. They had no intentions of spending the night anywhere. This is not the bars fault.

Barb you're busted:biggrinjester:, posting on multiple boards must be hard to keep track of:willy_nilly: I often skim over threads so I will repeat what others have already posted, so I looked back over the thread to see what you said but can't find it. Did you by chance make that comment on another board????? I hope you know I am kidding with you, but you made me look, of course I might have completely missed it, just today I told a customer he did not send me specs on a filter, and there they were on the email I was responding to:o

[ChiefApache]

Barb you're busted:biggrinjester:, posting on multiple boards must be hard to keep track of:willy_nilly: I often skim over threads so I will repeat what others have already posted, so I looked back over the thread to see what you said but can't find it. Did you by chance make that comment on another board????? I hope you know I am kidding with you, but you made me look, of course I might have completely missed it, just today I told a customer he did not send me specs on a filter, and there they were on the email I was responding to:o

I am busted Donna! I posted it on islandpirates so I apologize. Let me say I totally agree 100%.

I edited.

[Ms PatriYacht]

to funny, I hope you don't think I was being sarcastic, it's just you had me wondering and looking to see what I missed, see great minds think alike:cheers2:

[ChiefApache]

to funny, I hope you don't think I was being sarcastic, it's just you had me wondering and looking to see what I missed, see great minds think alike:cheers2:

No, not at all. I knew I said it somewhere and that's what I get for buzzing around here and there and everywhere. :reddevil:

[h2oMag]

The two boats involved in this accident were rafted right behind me at the Beach Grill less than an hour before the accident happened. Very tragic. My condolences to the families. RIP.

One of the boats was being towed in Sunday morning as I idled out of the channel in front of the restaurant and through the search area. Very eerie feeling.

Very sad,, We had our Old School Offshore Reunion at Jacks last Sat, THANKFULLY with out any incidents. Was the 24' Cheetah yellow & white ? If so it might have been my boat many years ago..

[FULL FORCE]

7 peoploe, two boats. They had no intentions of spending the night anywhere. This is not the bars fault.

Yea... unless it is my boat and it is seven people on one boat overnight!!

[ChiefApache]

Yea... unless it is my boat and it is seven people on one boat overnight!!

You're an exception. That would never happen on our boat. :sifone:

[FULL FORCE]

You're an exception. That would never happen on our boat. :sifone:

But it's so much fun and we are goofballs! I am just glad everyone respects the boat rules... ok, Highjack over!:sifone:

[TCEd]

I'll probably take some heat over this but there always seemed to be far to much drinking on Lake St. Clair. The fabled gauntlet in Muskamoot is fillled with drunks every weekend and I always wondered how they got home or who took care of them.
ed

[MattBMiller]

Very sad,, We had our Old School Offshore Reunion at Jacks last Sat, THANKFULLY with out any incidents. Was the 24' Cheetah yellow & white ? If so it might have been my boat many years ago..

Yep, that's the one. I was with the Motorcity Fun run crew that pulled into Jacks while you had the reunion going on.

[phragle]

We had two guys on our boat recently. They got to the marina at 10:00, started drinking at 11:00 AM By the time they left at 9:00 PM they must have had over 24 bottles of beer each. They consumed some they brought, bought beers at 4 different establishments and drank some of our's. If I had not seen how much each had drank I would have sworn that they had nothing or almost nothing. I am sure if they walked into a 5th bar and asked for another drink no one would have refused them. I feel for the bars because there are times when I am sure they have no clue how much their customers have had to drink. I have no idea of the case in point here, but if you are not showing outright drunk systems, how can a bartender be expected to know who is over the limit and who is not. I am sure most of you know people that appear to have a wooden leg when it comes to alcohol.

Ok, first off, I was on your boat too.. I had to work so I wasn't drinking, so that leaves Fundy drinking 48 beers... now that may seem excessive, and it would probably be to most, but you have to comprhend the "Fundy Factor".. you have to actually meet him in person to do this. The man makes the jolly green giant look like a leprachan, you stand him next to your tow rig and your F650 looks lkike a chevy luv. 48 beers to someone that size is nothing, 48 kegs, and I would worry about him falling over and squashing people.

But I do have to ask... you guys had maybe one drink apiece at Clammies before I left for work... just what the hell happened??? :26::26::26::26:

[MarylandMark]

I am sure most of you know people that appear to have a wooden leg when it comes to alcohol.

I was just happy to see you... :rofl:

and I drank I mean plead the 5th when it comes to drinkin

[phragle]

Soory if my opinions are disagreeable, but bars are in the buisness of selling alcohol, they are not in the breathalyzer buisness nor are they in the drunk daycare buisness.

The patron CHOOSES of his own free will how much he consumes and what he does afterwards.

would it be nice if a bartender said "hey buddy, your lit up like a christmas tree let me call you a cab", sure. but it is Not his responsibilty to make the patrons decisions.

Its like blaming McDonalds because your a 600 pound diabetic lazy bastard. The freaking clown did not hold a gun to your head and say "eat sucker"

[Ratickle]

Soory if my opinions are disagreeable, but bars are in the buisness of selling alcohol, they are not in the breathalyzer buisness nor are they in the drunk daycare buisness.

The patron CHOOSES of his own free will how much he consumes and what he does afterwards.

would it be nice if a bartender said "hey buddy, your lit up like a christmas tree let me call you a cab", sure. but it is Not his responsibilty to make the patrons decisions.

Its like blaming McDonalds because your a 600 pound diabetic lazy bastard. The freaking clown did not hold a gun to your head and say "eat sucker"

McDonalds should have to refuse to sell to an overly obese person by law. That is the number 2 most expensive health cost in the United States, higher than smoking related expenses....

Bars should have to refuse to sell to an overly drunk person, number one reason of driving fatalities.....


My reasoning, we, taxpayers, have to support both in one way or another. And, the drunk may kill someone.

But, the ones who you can't tell their level of intoxication, there is no way the bar is responsible.

[Ms PatriYacht]

Rob are you forgetting my German friend and his friend, they are experienced heavy drinkers and consumed a lot without ever appearing drunk. Ian did not drink until after lunch and then only a few until we got back to the marina.

I agree that bars should not serve people that they can see are drunk, but often they don't know how drunk a person is our how much then have had, that's why it's hard to place blame. What if "Alcoholic Al" has 15 drinks and then makes one last bar stop before heading home. At the last place he runs into a buddy that buys him one for the road, therefore Al never sees or talks with a bartender. On Al's way home he causes an accident, so other than Al whose fault is it??? If its the bar's fault then they should only serve one drink to each person at a time, and make sure that person is going to be the one that drinks it. And they also should give a Breathalyzer to everyone that arrives so they will know if they have been drinking somewhere else. In theory it is easy to say it's the bar's responsibility not to over-serve, but there are so many instances where this is not a practical statement.

[phragle]

while I understand and respect your opinion Rat, I dissagree..

1. fat people get sick and die young. they also arent very good at getting mates. That is the law of nature. It's mans attempt at saving them that makes it a high health care cost.

2. Overly drunk people do stupid things and kill themselves, again natures way of weeding out the weak, why is it not legal to crack them upside the head and knock them cold when we see them heading for their car, so they don't take the innocent? Why aren't we on natures side??

Mother nature always wins in the end. It's our attempts to mess with natural law that causes problems.

We complain about Obama, yet he was elected by the very people mother nature is attempting to eliminate. In creating laws to protect the idiots from thier own stupidity, we are in essence, dumbing down the human race and reversing the evolutionary principles that have put man at the top of the food chain.

[Ratickle]

while I understand and respect your opinion Rat, I dissagree..

1. fat people get sick and die young. they also arent very good at getting mates. That is the law of nature. It's mans attempt at saving them that makes it a high health care cost.

2. Overly drunk people do stupid things and kill themselves, again natures way of weeding out the weak, why is it not legal to crack them upside the head and knock them cold when we see them heading for their car, so they don't take the innocent? Why aren't we on natures side??

Mother nature always wins in the end. It's our attempts to mess with natural law that causes problems.

We complain about Obama, yet he was elected by the very people mother nature is attempting to eliminate. In creating laws to protect the idiots from thier own stupidity, we are in essence, dumbing down the human race and reversing the evolutionary principles that have put man at the top of the food chain.

I agree. So, if we eliminate man's attempts at saving them, and the money and expenses involved, they can do whatever they want as long as they do not endanger anyone else.....


Are you familiar with Shockley's noble prize winning research on the dumbing down of the human race????

[phragle]

Nope, but I imagine it supports my theroy :)

[Ratickle]

Nope, but I imagine it supports my theroy :)

It dang near got him killed. His house was attacked, burned, all kinds of crap. But, it definetely supports your theory, but takes it to a different step with more information.

[Ratickle]

Beliefs about populations and genetics

Late in his life, Shockley became intensely interested in questions of race, intelligence and eugenics. He thought this work was important to the genetic future of the human species, and came to describe it as the most important work of his career, even though expressing such politically unpopular views risked damaging his reputation. When asked why he seemed to take positions associated with both the political right and left, Shockley explained that his goal was "the application of scientific ingenuity to the solution of human problems."[13]

Shockley believed that the higher rate of reproduction among the less intelligent was having a dysgenic effect, and that a drop in average intelligence would ultimately lead to a decline in civilization. Shockley advocated that the scientific community should seriously investigate questions of heredity, intelligence and demographic trends, and suggest policy changes if he was proven right.

Although Shockley was concerned about both black and white dysgenic effects, he found the situation among blacks more disastrous. While unskilled whites had 3.7 children on average versus an average of 2.3 children for skilled whites, Shockley found from the 1970 Census Bureau reports that unskilled blacks had 5.4 children versus 1.9 for the skilled blacks.[14] Shockley reasoned that because intelligence (like most traits) is inherited, the black population would, over time, become much less intelligent countering all the gains that had been made by the Civil Rights movement. Shockley's published writings and lectures to scientific organizations on this topic, such as the National Academy of Sciences, were partly based on the research of Berkeley psychologist Arthur Jensen, Cyril Burt and H. J. Eysenck. Shockley also proposed that individuals with IQs below 100 be paid to undergo voluntary sterilization.

[phragle]

Ma/ca x 100 = _____

[insanity]

... Shockley also proposed that individuals with IQs below 100 be paid to undergo voluntary sterilization.


I've often said something similar but based it on the ACT test (at least in Ohio). Anyone that scores under 15 on the ACT test, should be mandatory sterilization.

[gerritm]

Beliefs about populations and genetics

Late in his life, Shockley became intensely interested in questions of race, intelligence and eugenics. He thought this work was important to the genetic future of the human species, and came to describe it as the most important work of his career, even though expressing such politically unpopular views risked damaging his reputation. When asked why he seemed to take positions associated with both the political right and left, Shockley explained that his goal was "the application of scientific ingenuity to the solution of human problems."[13]

Shockley believed that the higher rate of reproduction among the less intelligent was having a dysgenic effect, and that a drop in average intelligence would ultimately lead to a decline in civilization. Shockley advocated that the scientific community should seriously investigate questions of heredity, intelligence and demographic trends, and suggest policy changes if he was proven right.

Although Shockley was concerned about both black and white dysgenic effects, he found the situation among blacks more disastrous. While unskilled whites had 3.7 children on average versus an average of 2.3 children for skilled whites, Shockley found from the 1970 Census Bureau reports that unskilled blacks had 5.4 children versus 1.9 for the skilled blacks.[14] Shockley reasoned that because intelligence (like most traits) is inherited, the black population would, over time, become much less intelligent countering all the gains that had been made by the Civil Rights movement. Shockley's published writings and lectures to scientific organizations on this topic, such as the National Academy of Sciences, were partly based on the research of Berkeley psychologist Arthur Jensen, Cyril Burt and H. J. Eysenck. Shockley also proposed that individuals with IQs below 100 be paid to undergo voluntary sterilization.



Duh!!!! It ain't rocket science. All you need to figure this was go to certain sections of my home town on a hot Saturday night.:sifone: