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T2x
06-15-2009, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted August 2001 on another website by T2x

CUB STAGE

1955- Carl Kiekhaefer begins to experiment with multi hull designs at Lake X, mostly 3 point hydro derivations.

1956 Ted Jones (Ron's father)Builds a 17 foot wooden catamaran which , while ungainly, shows good performance and stability.

1958 Various builders take up the challenge PowerCat, Craig, CustomCraft, Stylecraft and a few others create molded fibreglass "symetrical" cats (each hull identical on both sides....
....__....
\_/ \_/

These boats are immediately entered in the brand new Outboard Performance Class of APBA.


CHEETAH STAGE

1961 Dave and Bob Switzer create the "Wing" , which is so far ahead of its time we haven't duplicated it's performance to this day.......17'long, 8+ft wide, two 80 hp outboards... nearly 100mph (By the way it, and some PowerCats, had a "tunnel tab" which as you all know was "invented"... again.... in the 1990's). Sporting "four point ram wing technology" this thing initially tears up Lake X and is then seen on various race circuits under the exclusive control of the "Old Man". (God Forbid OMC should get their hands on one). It also featured the first "pickle fork sponsons

1963- Dieter Schultz uses outboard hydroplane construction techniques to craft the first tunnel hull (assymetrical sponsons)
....__....
\_| |_/

While small by monuhull standards, its ability to handle mixed chop is stunning and the boat turns better than any hydro, symmetrical cat, v bottom or the dreaded "wing". It has one major flaw, a tendency to "stuff" unexpectedly due to its lack of forward entry lift and low angle of attack.

1964.. Angelo Molinari solves the "stuff" tendency by designing and building the "banana" Molinari. The hulls on this tunnel hulled craft have a dramatic upswing toward the bow resembling a banana in profile . While solving the deadly stuff problem this over-compensating design had a frequent blow over tendency.

1965 Tunnel hulls invade the U.S. race circuit and immediately run away from mono hulls (V bottoms of all kinds). Checkmate, Glastron, Magnum, Baja, etc all enter into agreements with (and or "pop") Molinari or
Schultz designs. Since the tunnel hulls had limited pleasure boat (production)appeal (the average guy couldn't keep them right side up) the v bottom manufacturers lobbied for (and got) separate racing classes. This began a long tradition of v bottom manufacturers trying to beat the cats politically rather than in true competition.

1967 It becomes painfully apparent that the fibreglass replica tunnels cannot keep up with the original wood variants... and the wood designs are evolving so fast that molds are obsoleted in only a few months. At the same time outboard horsepower continues to rise with resulting periods when the hulls can't handle the power or the power can't push the hulls. Stock outboard drivers prove to be the best at handling these phenomenal boats and names like Sirois, Hering (yep the prop guy), McConnell, Hill, and (the best boat race driver of all time).... Seebold come out to play...... boy, could they play!
(But that's another story for another post)
Meanwhile, an obscure Florida builder named John McCall made a neat little tunnel of his own. This boat was "wider at the hip" than most others and spanned remarkably well. Sadly, lack of budget and factory backing limited this design to very few examples...but later.....

THE BIG CATS

1970 Ted Jones' son, Ron, by now famous for building great hydros and gorgeous but mediocre tunnel hulls (It's a California thing....), is contracted by millionaire Paul Cook (Future star Betty's husband)to build an offshore tunnel cat. Sporting the name "KuDu" the boat ran okay, showing flashes of speed but had some handling woes.

1975 James Beard and Clive Curtis, two Englishmen with modest experience building Cougar outboard tunnel hulls (Fast ...but no match for a Molinari...or a Seebold) create a few wooden offshore cats.. first outboard powered, than graduating to magnificent 36-41 foot stern driven marvels. These boats had a small speed advantage over the veehulls of the day but lacked the strength needed to withstand continuous ocean pounding. A few variations are crafted in fibreglass. Observors scratch their heads wondering why the lighter, sleeker cats are not significantly faster than the Vees..... The Lion was sleeping

1980 Ex tunnel racer, Rich Luhrs, tears up George Linder's plans for a 28 foot, v bottomed Shadow when seeking an addition to the already remarkable 21 foot Challenger/Shadow and demands that they create a cat. The eventual design, 30 feet in length, is ungainly due to Linder's insistance that it be under 8'6" in width and legally trailerable. In spite of the slab sides it features more hydrodynamic lift than the Cougar, multidyhedral bottom design, and a spec that calls for drastically raising the "X" dimension. It is the latter change that frees the cat from lower unit drag and allows it to demolish existing speed expectations.

1981Cougar, which has suddenly found new speed through higher "X" dimensions, begins to experiment with Aluminum and fibreglass construction materials. This catapults the Cat design into the highest levels of Offshore racing and begins a decade of dominance for the British marque.

1982 Willie Diaz takes the small block powered Sport Class Shadow, "El Boss", through a variety of larger big block Open class fleets becoming the first boat to average 100 mph in an offshore race
leg. Other builders take note and raise drive heights. At the same time Howard Arneson debuts his Surface drive. ( Good speed, poor trim, b-a-a-a-ad steering).
The Cats finally run and hide from the vees .......with equal power.......Meow!

1982 Formula builds a Cat for Betty Cook and anyone else that cares to purchase one...never wins a race and is relegated to an asterisk in John Crouse's book. This emphasizes the fact that legendery Vee manufacturers are painfully out of touch.

1983.. Construction techniques improve to the point where Aluminum, Fibreglass, and wood-fibreglass composite cats can stay together in the roughest conditions. This was a PURRRRfect situation for hull development.

1983 Douglas Michigan's Peter Hledin, owner of a small boat company building a full tunnel(no pickle forks) fibreglass version of the old "Dutchman" tunnel hull (descendant of the Schultz) hangs out at offshore races in nearby Saugatuck, Mi...and takes a lot of notes. Later he takes a clean sheet of paper and designs the remarkable 24' Skater....nimble, quick but a little fine in forward entry.....ahem! ..but back to the story.... Peter is a guy who Cat-ches on quickly.

1983. Mike Peters, creator of a near ruinous cat for Halter Marine (It sank in it's first and only race), collaborates with(hires) John McCall...remember him?... and the Apache Cat, and Maelstroms begin to take shape. Mike Peters becomes one of the hottest designers in power boating. John McCall takes his money and fades into obscurity. Later, Peters designed CUV's are notable for their spanning ability and "wide at the hip" proportions.

1984 Don Aronow splits a 28 Cigarette lengthwise joins the halves with a tunnel and makes the second worst cat of all time. (Later he split a 39 footer and makes the worst.) See the Betty Cook Formula cat above.

1985 Cat's become the undisputed champs of Offshore racing. Vee manufacturers put out various drivel "Cats can't turn", "Cat's can't take rough water", Etc.........and people believed them. Various attempts began to separate classes between cats and vees. Bottom line...size for power Cat's represented approximately 30% more speed than a comparable Vee...... This was Cat-a-strophic to Vee builders.

1986 Peter Hledin puts the finishing touches on his 32 footer. He captures the market abandoned by Linder/Luhrs after the Shadow Cat/Chris Cat era. This establishes him as a force to be reckoned with and creates a loyal following of owners who later trade up to bigger....Skaters

1986 After the tragic death of racing superstar, Mark Lavin, during a stuff, in a Linder/Luhrs/Adams Conquest, builders turned to the forward entry area of sponsons and created rebounding anti- dive lift areas to allow for better re-entry recovery. This was seen most notably on the final Conquest Cats, and Peter Hledin's Tour de Force...the 40' Skater.

1986 The Lavin Foundation is founded by donations from the Lavin Family and others in Mark's memory. The finest minds in Offshore design and Safety are tapped to create cockpit standards in an ever expanding work in progress that exists to this day. These standards, readily available to anyone, or any organization are widely ignored by people who "have a better idea" either for political, financial, or simple bone headed reasons......

1989 Peter Hledin begins work on a 46 foot hull that in some instances is nearly as fast as his 40 footer. Originally conceived as a 4 engine boat, the damn thing runs to max hull speed with only 2...... At about the same time offshore racing is embraced in Dubai and Peter happily sells lots of boats over there. He also supplies people to drive them for big bucks. One of these lucky souls is hired by the head cheese, stretches Hledins designs, calls them Victory's and kills the market for Skaters in the Middle East. He shall remain nameless but currently builds a design based on a stretched 36 Skater.... This, sadly, is not the only case of "splashing" that Skater has endured. We shall call this the "kitty litter" phenomenon..... It makes a mess but in the end all you've got is poop and a bad smell.

1990- present: Vee bottom builders lobby ,successfully, to prevent heads up competition. In some cases vees have triple engines while cats are limited to 2. In the more recent mode, Vees can be supercharged, Cats cannot. We emphasize Factory 2 (Vee) with all its ill handling adventures ( Mike A., alone, decorated half the race courses in the U.S. with stern drives, fibreglass , and his trusty sidekick, Adib). Factory 3 (Cats) is downplayed and avoided. Since Vee manufacturers sponsor TV and races, this is accepted as the norm. "After all Cat's have an unfair advantage........being faster, more stable and safer at speed. It just aint right to let them race even up.....is it? huh..well is it?"

1996 to present. Mike Peters and Peter Hledin rule the Cat world. Skater creates the 28, the 36, and the new 32 each with increasingly sophisticated hull features. Mike Peters designs the CUV and the TenCara (Swahili for "wildly overpriced").

2000-Super Cat, in spite of its anemic engine formula, showed a lot of promise until it got lost in a bewildering array of classes on the TV shows...and a lack of attention to cockpit safety..... But that's another story.....

Dude! Sweet!
06-15-2009, 02:21 PM
Now THAT is what I'm talkin' about! Thank you Signore Luhrs! :sifone:

Davidmnc
06-15-2009, 02:39 PM
I really love this stuff. Thank you for sharing, and please, please share more.

cigdaze
06-15-2009, 02:47 PM
"Kitty Litter..." Now that's funny.
:D

waterboy222
06-15-2009, 03:30 PM
Love these timelines.. Really puts it all into perspective to see where these multi-colored, 170+mph machines really came from.. Thanks for all you do and have done.

T2x
06-15-2009, 03:46 PM
2004 to present The lines between racing and Poker Running become blurred and a new phenomenon is thrown in for good measure (Pecker length :D)....Top Speed "Shoot outs". This begets the ultimate throwdown in which turbines are plugged into the catamaran design... because you just can't get enough horsepower from a piston engine to satisfy the drama lust in some folks. As a result we actually get to a point where the Miss Budweiser is entered into one of these events....and, of course, wins. (It's too bad drag hydros aren't allowed then we could really create some carnage).

In any event we have now taken these hulls (originally designed to operate at a 5-7 degree positive attack angle) and put them in a tucked under situation at speeds over 200 mph. Unlike the semi airborne hydros, this subjects the running surfaces of the cats to immeasureable, hydrodynamic stresses and (literally) ballistic impacts, significantly reducing the lifespan of the laminates and requiring much thicker pad construction. Since we now measure all hull manufacturers by how light they can make hulls....we are in a bit of a conundrum. However as long as tee shirts are available, and crowds gather to gawk (the new measure of racing success, replacing actual competition), this phenomenon will continue unchecked.

Offshore Ginger
06-15-2009, 03:56 PM
T2x - Hell you forgot to mention that the 36 that became the splash was owned by Dean Loucks (TAOD ) who barreled rolled the boat on Lake Mich killing two people which was sold to Randy Scism ,Owner of MTI and who once was a throttlman for team Victory . I have to say that Randy and Pete at one point in time were the best of friends untill Randy purchased the boat from Dean and with only one thing in mind which was to use it for a splash along with all the countless hours and days that randy would be at the plant during the summer sucking up everything thing that he could learn .

T2x
06-15-2009, 04:35 PM
T2x - Hell you forgot to mention that the 36 that became the splash was owned by Dean Loucks (TAOD ) who barreled rolled the boat on Lake Mich killing two people which was sold to Randy Scism ,Owner of MTI and who once was a throttlman for team Victory . I have to say that Randy and Pete at one point in time were the best of friends untill Randy purchased the boat from Dean and with only one thing in mind which was to use it for a splash along with all the countless hours and days that randy would be at the plant during the summer sucking up everything thing that he could learn .



"One of these lucky souls is hired by the head cheese, stretches Hledins designs, calls them Victory's and kills the market for Skaters in the Middle East. He shall remain nameless but currently builds a design based on a stretched 36 Skater.... ."

Airpacker
06-15-2009, 04:46 PM
Thanks Rich. I told ya "they will read it" :)





































Me too of course.

T2x
06-15-2009, 04:55 PM
Thanks Rich. I told ya "they will read it" :)

Me too of course.

Funny thing is...I also posted these on Scream and Fly and they are getting tremendous response over there as well.... :D

It's a shame that the thousands of hits these two threads got on OSO (both before and after they reset the counter) apparently went to people who have come and gone in the past 8 years or so.

Dude! Sweet!
06-15-2009, 05:16 PM
The first offshore boat I can recall thinking "I need to own that" about is the old Boat's Unlimited Special ('78 ish) Pantera (alleged to be the first 28 Pantera race boat ever built). The second boat I can recall thinking "I need to own that" was a Chris Cat... Half way there... And thanks for the positive reinforcement of my "illness"! :D

Bruce Tobiassen
06-15-2009, 06:04 PM
Great time line.Being a part of one of the worlds if not the fastest offshore cats (50' Mystic 6000hp turbine so far 211+mph) . SAFETY is the biggest issue!!! With the recent delams and all that air under the tunnel also canopy failures how fast is to fast? As humans the need to push the envelope is a given. But, where do we draw the line?

old377guy
06-15-2009, 06:04 PM
very nice to see the chronology over here - thanks

Ratickle
06-15-2009, 06:12 PM
As humans the need to push the envelope is a given. But, where do we draw the line?

There will always be a group of people who will go faster than what technology can protect. This is true in every type of motorsport. Because of those people the technology will improve. It has always cost lives. The only question to me, are the contestants the only ones at risk? If so, then the best technology is all we can use. Anything less is wrong, but it will never be safe to push the envelope of speed.

schnydo
06-15-2009, 06:49 PM
It's funny how peter starts out building a copy cat then takes notes
at a offshore race and catches on quick but randy just a copy cat

BOJOE2
06-15-2009, 07:09 PM
thanks rich keep it up

FastDonzi
06-15-2009, 07:37 PM
At the time the Lavins where a step ahead of the tech envelope, and a step behind the safety envelope. And this is usually the case with every new high tech Boat, untill you know "what" to protect the drivers from you don't know. if every crash was a stuff No Problem, Every crash a rollover No Problem, but the tech to protect from these is falling behind now because of the speeds we see now. I bet when we see the first 200mph back flip that lands deck side down the canopy is torn off, then we'll have to build a 200mph back flip proof canopy and so on, and so on...it s-u-c-k-s that it is this way, but it is the way it is...one step ahead with tech leaves safety one step behind.

T2x
06-15-2009, 08:20 PM
It's funny how peter starts out building a copy cat then takes notes
at a offshore race and catches on quick but randy just a copy cat

Peter built his own original design with his own two hands... Anybody that builds an original from scratch and a blank sheet of paper....has my respect. Anybody that doesn't........ can get respect from you.

T2x

T2x
06-15-2009, 08:24 PM
At the time the Lavins where a step ahead of the tech envelope, and a step behind the safety envelope. And this is usually the case with every new high tech Boat, untill you know "what" to protect the drivers from you don't know. if every crash was a stuff No Problem, Every crash a rollover No Problem, but the tech to protect from these is falling behind now because of the speeds we see now. I bet when we see the first 200mph back flip that lands deck side down the canopy is torn off, then we'll have to build a 200mph back flip proof canopy and so on, and so on...it s-u-c-k-s that it is this way, but it is the way it is...one step ahead with tech leaves safety one step behind.

Except.......We now know exactly what most of the dynamics are......you just described one...... and we should be proactive. We also have a major amount of work that needs to be done on 200 mph complete delamination scenarios.... and we have to understand that boat racers have been killed without any contact from outside pressures or hard surfaces at all...The simple sudden change in g forces from a barrel roll at high speed has killed a few drivers.

This is deadly serious stuff........

Smarty
06-15-2009, 08:33 PM
I have always, and I do mean always, enjoyed reading your perspective, experience, and expertise on Powerboats. Keep it coming.

Stephen "Smarty" Jones

T2x
06-15-2009, 08:34 PM
Danny Leger... The son of the late founder of Power Cat boats, Roy Leger, has added the following:
1951 - Power Cat originator Ray Leger builds the first symetrical hull wooden cat and picks up the name "Power Cat" when a local newspaper sports writer uses the name to describe the boat.

1952-1955 Production of "Power Cats" for mostly the west coast begin to dominate local club racing of the Western Outboard Assn. of pleasure craft and an attempt to ban them as "hydroplane race boats" is attempted. The solution was to create new pleasure class for unlimited designs..

1956 - The west coast racing success catches the eye of Carl Kiekhafer at Mercury and he offers to provide the motors for Power Cat to compete in the Mississippi River 1068 mile Marathon.

Thanks Danny

T2x
06-15-2009, 08:39 PM
But, where do we draw the line?

That is a great question. My personal opinion is that anyone who is willing to risk it all to set a speed mark (in a controlled, sanctioned event) should be allowed to do it..... as long as he (or she) fully understands what can happen and exactly what their safety systems will endure.....and.... if they are willing to inflict their death on family and loved ones.

I fear that too many drivers believe it can never happen to them...or that their hulls and cockpits will protect them in far worse scenarios than they really can.

Running aroound in a 150-200 mph open cockpit pleasure hull with innocent, uninformed, passengers meets none of the above litmus tests.

T2x

Geronimo36
06-15-2009, 09:04 PM
Ya forgot to add that the "wing" actually looked like a double dildo...:rofl:

MOBILEMERCMAN
06-15-2009, 09:06 PM
I great moment was realized this weekend. Aqua Mania goes to Bimini and back in 43 minutes.

T2x
06-15-2009, 09:12 PM
Ya forgot to add that the "wing" actually looked like a double dildo...:rofl:

Better than a single dildo.........with a long deck......

Geronimo36
06-15-2009, 09:14 PM
Better than a single dildo.........with a long deck......

Depends on the girls preferences!:sifone::rofl:

See ya Friday!

FastDonzi
06-15-2009, 09:22 PM
Running aroound in a 150-200 mph open cockpit pleasure hull with innocent, uninformed, passengers meets none of the above litmus tests.

T2x


I think it was Eric Colby who wrote an article (20 years ago) about only going as fast as your passengers warrant, well I think that type of common sense thinking ended with the article. I don't know how many wives really feel comfy at 120+.

Dean Ferry
06-15-2009, 09:27 PM
I great moment was realized this weekend. Aqua Mania goes to Bimini and back in 43 minutes.

Just another record for the Mystic powerboats!:)

Smarty
06-15-2009, 11:09 PM
That is a great question. My personal opinion is that anyone who is willing to risk it all to set a speed mark (in a controlled, sanctioned event) should be allowed to do it..... as long as he (or she) fully understands what can happen and exactly what their safety systems will endure.....and.... if they are willing to inflict their death on family and loved ones.

I fear that too many drivers believe it can never happen to them...or that their hulls and cockpits will protect them in far worse scenarios than they really can.

Running aroound in a 150-200 mph open cockpit pleasure hull with innocent, uninformed, passengers meets none of the above litmus tests.

T2x

I had touched base on this topic with respect to feasible design (how to make the boat safer) and assumption of risk due to an accident in Europe, at a Poker Run, with a V-Bottom; what passenger has an expectation of getting seriously injured, and or killed when out on the water with a friend or family member for fun.

I fear legislation (restricting operating freedoms for perfomance boaters, speed limits/zones, and other infringements) Catastrophic accidents cause too much attention, whether it is V-Bottom or Cat.

I do agree with you.

DaveP
06-15-2009, 11:13 PM
Running aroound in a 150-200 mph open cockpit pleasure hull with innocent, uninformed, passengers meets none of the above litmus tests.

But yet the Pecker Length Pecker Heads think it is wonderful......and if they were to die doing what they loved, it would be a glorious achievement to attain martyrdom.........

Some people just don't get it.....:(

ApachePete
06-15-2009, 11:54 PM
GREAT stuff!

Thanks so much.

OldSchool
07-08-2009, 11:21 AM
Here you go boys and girls. Let's everyone play nice now....Ya hear?:sifone:

Wobble
07-08-2009, 12:10 PM
Great stuff, it's been a few years since I read the other threads

T2x
07-08-2009, 01:20 PM
It's funny how peter starts out building a copy cat then takes notes
at a offshore race and catches on quick but randy just a copy cat

Will you people never learn........????

Peter NEVER MADE A MOLD FROM PIECES OF SOMEONE ELSE"S BOAT!!!!!!!!!

Dude! Sweet!
07-08-2009, 03:10 PM
Glad to see this back up. Thanks Rich. Some insight and a great deal of entertainment!

Dueclaws
07-08-2009, 05:40 PM
Rich-
Thanks for sharing..... again!
Great info and sage advice.
John

Miller
07-08-2009, 09:02 PM
Great thread Rich. Hope it gets people thinking and asking questions about what the machinery can really handle...I fear that it won't however. Perhaps a Skaterfest/Safetyfest is in order....

Ratickle
07-08-2009, 11:19 PM
Great thread Rich. Hope it gets people thinking and asking questions about what the machinery can really handle...I fear that it won't however. Perhaps a Skaterfest/Safetyfest is in order....

The knowledge is here, those who risk their lives are here, the builders are here, it's just a matter of pooling everything and continuing to move forward.


Anyway Rich, I want to hear about things that were tried and did not work. You, Charlie, Brownie, etc made some nice kindling a few times from what I recall.....:sifone:

bulletbob
07-09-2009, 01:43 PM
Thanks Rich! I enjoy reading these threads again and again. I am a newbie and the insite is informative and interesting. Thanks again, Bob

TMS1155
07-09-2009, 07:12 PM
Thanks Rich! Glad to see this back!

schnydo
07-09-2009, 09:50 PM
You said peter copied a dutchman

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 06:58 AM
You said peter copied a dutchman

1983 Douglas Michigan's Peter Hledin, owner of a small boat company building a full tunnel(no pickle forks) fibreglass version of the old "Dutchman" tunnel hull (descendant of the Schultz) hangs out at offshore races in nearby Saugatuck, Mi...and takes a lot of notes. Later he takes a clean sheet of paper and designs the remarkable 24' Skater....nimble, quick but a little fine in forward entry.....ahem! ..but back to the story.... Peter is a guy who Cat-ches on quickly.

Don't see anything about copied in there. The tunnel hull was a completely different design than the new 24' Skater. One was a tunnel racer, one was the first offshore baby cat.

On another note, Tom Earhart had that 24 with the Vdrive hooked to an outdrive with the monster motor and an overdrive trans.

Anybody know what happened to that boat?

Airpacker
07-10-2009, 08:04 AM
You said peter copied a dutchman

Have you ever seen an 18 skater? Not exactly an "offshore" boat is it?

Brownie
07-10-2009, 08:36 AM
Everybody who thinks that Peter never saw Scarlett OHara's raise your hand......

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 08:44 AM
Everybody who thinks that Peter never saw Scarlett OHara's raise your hand......

Come on Brownie, a little more input......:)

I absolutely love it when you guys (Icons) discuss the history of the sport and it's growth.

I'm still rooting for an opposite thread. You'd be one of the for-fathers.

Ideas in Cat/Vee History that were tried and proven not to be healthy for us.....:sifone:

smokeybandit
07-10-2009, 08:53 AM
Everybody who thinks that Peter never saw Scarlett OHara's raise your hand......

Brownie,

Are you talking about the Cougar "Scarlett O'Hara's"?

T2x
07-10-2009, 09:02 AM
1983 Douglas Michigan's Peter Hledin, owner of a small boat company building a full tunnel(no pickle forks) fibreglass version of the old "Dutchman" tunnel hull (descendant of the Schultz) hangs out at offshore races in nearby Saugatuck, Mi...and takes a lot of notes. Later he takes a clean sheet of paper and designs the remarkable 24' Skater....nimble, quick but a little fine in forward entry.....ahem! ..but back to the story.... Peter is a guy who Cat-ches on quickly.

Don't see anything about copied in there. The tunnel hull was a completely different design than the new 24' Skater. One was a tunnel racer, one was the first offshore baby cat.

In the early tunnel boat days... the first two original designs were the Schultz (from Austria) and the Molinari (from Italy) both made in wood with constant variations. Molinari licensed only two of his 18 and 21 foot designs (there were more designs later) to Glastron for the purpose of making fibreglass race hulls. These boats were somewhat successful on the race course...but not as fast as the wooden originals....nor could they be changed and updated as speeds increased. Their "Banana" shape carried the bow at a considerable height from the water to prevent stuffs which was a problem with the early Schultz's. Regardless, the Glastron Molinari's were quickly "popped" by at least three other builders (who shall remain nameless but two of them exist to this day.....originally out of Ohio) . Simultaneously, Don Aronow Licensed the 17 foot Schultz design for Magnum, which had nothing to do with Offshore and was, in fact, not a good pleasure....nor race...hull. At the same time Jan Schoonover of Lima Marine (also in Ohio...but not a "Pop") built an original 17 and 20 foot fibreglass hull based on an aluminum hull (Petty Craft) that was designed in cooperation with Mercury along the lines of the Schultz.....but not exactly. These variants also tended to stuff at racing speeds. A few years later, Peter Hledin took a blank sheet of paper and created an 18 foot pleasure tunnel boat. He liked the lower angle of attack of the Schultz, but also understood the need to get the bow out of the water for safety...so... he raised the attack angle and created much fuller...and original..... sponsons to carry a pleasure boat payload through a considerably wider....but more conservative speed range. In the end there was some Molinari, some Schultz, some Dutchman, and a lot of Hledin in the final product......but no "Splashing" or "Popping".

The issue is now and was then very simple.....

A true designer takes the current state of the art and a clean sheet of paper and advances it with a completely original plug or prototype.

A "Pop/splash" designer:

1. Can't design from scratch
2. Needs somebody else's hull (or part's thereof) to use as/in his plug...and steals the basic design.

Originally consumers bought "pops" because they were...frankly.... cheaper. The builders saved a bundle in the design process by swiping someone else's design. Now, however, like everything else in the New World Order, "spin" is everywhere, so consumers are more gullible and less discriminating. In many cases they have no history or experience watching hull evolution, and buy into the nonsense that "A Cat is a Cat", with no knowledge base to draw on to see clearly the symptoms of copying (Straight lines on the hull and deck and curves that do not tie in with each other...among others). They believe, for instance, that most West Coast cats (now deckboats) look alike... because of "geography" and not larceny.

There are basically 5 branches of the Offshore cat family tree:



Cougar (Beard/Curtis)
Shadow/Conquest (Linder/Luhrs)
Skater (Hledin)
Apache/Cuv/TenCara (Peters)
Eliminator


While there have been forays into the arena by repected race boat builders like Ron Jones, Bill Seebold, and Renato Molinari, and Fabio Buzzi using original designs, few of these has spawned imitators nor have they created much volume in the marketplace. There are certainly other original exceptions to the above list, I'm sure, but these are the main sources IMHO.

T2x

Geronimo36
07-10-2009, 09:48 AM
Where does the Talon fall into the mix??

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 09:56 AM
Where does the Talon fall into the mix??

And Ocean Express?

If you don't want to go there on some of these, I understand.

And on the other note, is there someone out there today taking the;

Cougar (Beard/Curtis)
Shadow/Conquest (Linder/Luhrs)
Skater (Hledin)
Apache/Cuv/TenCara (Peters)
Eliminator

and combining those elements of all/some into testing for the future?

Nothing stands still........:)

T2x
07-10-2009, 10:06 AM
Where does the Talon fall into the mix??

Undoubtedly an original...... but low volume...and a center pod hull as I recall.

It also has not spawned "limbs" on the tree like the others.

Chris
07-10-2009, 10:29 AM
Undoubtedly an original...... but low volume...and a center pod hull as I recall.

It also has not spawned "limbs" on the tree like the others.

Rich- maybe you can clear this up. I have a faint recollection of Talon having some relation to Maelstrom. And the design is so reminiscent of the Apache cat, but I can't recall if Peters was involved with Maelstrom.

Most of the Talon cats were built without the center pod. And OL is now making them ;)

Chris
07-10-2009, 10:30 AM
And Ocean Express?



Ocean Express is an Active.

Geronimo36
07-10-2009, 10:32 AM
Undoubtedly an original...... but low volume...and a center pod hull as I recall.

It also has not spawned "limbs" on the tree like the others.

Thanks for the info!!!

From what I hear, there were a few built without a pod. I think the Traffic Light/Cleveland Construction has no pod.

T2x
07-10-2009, 10:51 AM
And Ocean Express?

If you don't want to go there on some of these, I understand

That hull was originally spun off of a Cougar/Active Cat made in Detroit...I believe. For the record there is no "popping" in that lineage to my knowledge as the Active's were licensed by Cougar originally as far as I can remember.



And on the other note, is there someone out there today taking the;

Cougar (Beard/Curtis)
Shadow/Conquest (Linder/Luhrs)
Skater (Hledin)
Apache/Cuv/TenCara (Peters)
Eliminator

and combining those elements of all/some into testing for the future?

Nothing stands still........:)

Absolutely...... take a Skater...cut it up...make a mold.... :p

The problem is that so much of the original development of these hulls occurred in the 70's and 80's and all of the knowledge regarding dynamics and past failures is resident in only a few minds. As a result many of the newer guys are simply redesigning the wheel..... with flat spots. I am amazed at the number of people who pass on guys with mountains of knowledge in favor of guys with great PR...

Today you have a handful of boat builders, crew chief/truckdrivers and turbine engine marinizers steering high budget racing programs. Do you really think these people are more knowledgeable than Alan Brown, George Linder,Richie Powers, Peter Hledin, Steve Curtis, Jerry Gilbreath, or Mike Peters?

T2x

T2x
07-10-2009, 10:55 AM
Rich- maybe you can clear this up. I have a faint recollection of Talon having some relation to Maelstrom. And the design is so reminiscent of the Apache cat, but I can't recall if Peters was involved with Maelstrom.

Most of the Talon cats were built without the center pod. And OL is now making them ;)

The original Maelstroms were designed by Mike Peters and built by John McCall (another true designer/builder who is greatly respected for his early tunnel and vee bottom OPC hulls in the 60's).

I don't think the Talon is a direct descendant...but it could be.

Chris
07-10-2009, 10:59 AM
That hull was originally spun off of a Cougar/Active Cat made in Detroit...I believe. For the record there is no "popping" in that lineage to my knowledge as the Active's were licensed by Cougar originally as far as I can remember.




Ross Focht- Express Cat.

Chris
07-10-2009, 11:01 AM
I don't think the Talon is a direct descendant...but it could be.

Or it could just be a coincidence. Like so many other facets of offshore powerboat design. :)

T2x
07-10-2009, 11:15 AM
Ross Focht- Express Cat.

That's the guy.....good builder by the way.

OldSchool
07-10-2009, 12:06 PM
Today you have a handful of boat builders, crew chief/truckdrivers and turbine engine marinizers steering high budget racing programs. Do you really think these people are more knowledgeable than Alan Brown, George Linder,Richie Powers, Peter Hledin, Steve Curtis, Jerry Gilbreath, or Mike Peters?

T2x

I don't know about more knowledgeable.....but they are certainly younger!!!!:seeya::26:

Ratickle
07-10-2009, 12:14 PM
I don't know about more knowledgeable.....but they are certainly younger!!!!:seeya::26:

:rofl: :sifone: :rofl:

Got me rolling there.....

Friggin keyboard needs replacing too......

T2x
07-10-2009, 12:28 PM
I don't know about more knowledgeable.....but they are certainly younger!!!!:seeya::26:

Using that barometer...Michael Jackson's kids should be running CBS Records.

Airpacker
07-10-2009, 01:54 PM
There are basically 5 branches of the Offshore cat family tree:



Cougar (Beard/Curtis)
Shadow/Conquest (Linder/Luhrs)
Skater (Hledin)
Apache/Cuv/TenCara (Peters)
Eliminator



T2x

Whooooooooaaa. Did you just type Eliminator in the same post as Skater without a disparaging comment attached??????????? Well, I never thought that day would happen :biggrinjester:

T2x
07-10-2009, 02:08 PM
Whooooooooaaa. Did you just type Eliminator in the same post as Skater without a disparaging comment attached??????????? Well, I never thought that day would happen :biggrinjester:

I never said it was a great boat...It is an original however....and most other California Cats bear an amazing resemblance to it... :p

bulletbob
07-10-2009, 02:10 PM
Are the eliminator's copies of Talons or vise versa? I reciently purchased a 89 Talon and was suprised with the similaritys in hull design.

T2x
07-10-2009, 02:29 PM
Here's a great moment...or three.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-boating-discussion/96199-oss-cat-rhesus-monkeys.html

Airpacker
07-10-2009, 03:07 PM
Are the eliminator's copies of Talons or vise versa? I reciently purchased a 89 Talon and was suprised with the similaritys in hull design.

Actually, the bottom of a 25 Daytona and a 25 Talon are very different. The Talon's center pod is equal in height to the outside sponsons ( tricycle ) The Daytona center pod is substantially shorter than the outside sponsons. At speeds over 55mph, the center pod does not touch the water at all.

Bob Leach is a "clean sheet of paper" type designer / builder right old moldy one? :)

MarylandMark
07-10-2009, 03:10 PM
I am amazed at the number of people who pass on guys with mountains of knowledge in favor of guys with great PR...

I didn't vote for him! Oh-sorry; that sounded political with Obama being the latter.. :biggrinjester:

T2x
07-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Bob Leach is a "clean sheet of paper" type designer / builder right old moldy one? :)

I think so....but he spends more on graphics than compound curves......

It's a California thing. ;)

Miller
07-12-2009, 01:42 PM
I think so....but he spends more on graphics than compound curves......

It's a California thing. ;)

What's wrong with that? Makes for a beautiful lake boat and trailer queen, with new and improved canopies and other safety features too! :26: