Types of Fuel

[Perlmudder]

So what is the difference between the type of fuel run in an airplane and the type of fuel run in a turbine cat? Aren't the turbines pretty similar? Does a plane run "jet" fuel while a turbine cat runs diesel fuel or regular gasoline?

Sort of confused about this whole thing...

[ZBODaytona]

Well I am making an assumption..but I think it has to do with the fact that Jet A is desined to operate at altitude. I am pretty sure gasoline will not work in a turbine... Also avgas is a little different than regular gas as well.

[cigdaze]

Most turbines will burn some form of kerosine. JET-A is nothing more than a specialized grade of kerosine, the primary difference is the qualification which makes it suitable for operation in aircraft with stated flash point, self-ignition point, and freeze point. It had little to do with altitude, max thrust (and power) occurs at sea level (as is the case with most internal combustion engines).

[Tom A.]

Don't know the exact fuel differences but turbines run on kerosene based fuels. Jet fuel is a higher refined form of kerosene and diesel fuel is kerosene based. My understanding is that the marine turbines can run on any of these depending on their set up.

[Tom A.]

Beat me to it Cig :)

[cigdaze]

Just barely.
:)

[Chris]

I'm going to assume by the word "airplane" he means jet/turbine powered.

They use essentially the same base stock. Theyre are different formulations dependent upon use and purpose. Most turbofan and turboprop aircraft run on Jet A. Jet A differs from Diesel in that it is being burned at high altitudes and subsequently needs different additives to perform in those low-oxygen conditions. Marinized turbines are typically modified to use Diesel, mostly in the fuel delivery and metering system.

Jet fuel has many differing charachteristics. It needs to pour at very low temperatures, but it also does not need to have the same lubricity as Diesel fuel as it doesn't have the same pumping and injector issues.

[ZBODaytona]

when i was thinking altitude i was thinking the freezing points and what nots.like chris just said. but i knew you guys would give us the whole truth...and i am assuming i am right that regular old gasoline will not run in them...right???? to big of difference in flashpoint right????

[Chris]

A turbine can be made to run on damn near any flammable liquid, with proper fuel system modifications. There are many 3rd world countries operating turbine-powered electrical generation facilities that install multifuel systems simply because of fuel supply stability.

And, an M1 Abrams tank will run on Diesel, any jet fuel, gasoline, alcohol, perfume, scotch or Sterno. Literally.

Keep in mind a turbine is mechanically a much simpler device. You're only managing two things- shaft speed and EGT. It's a simple task to alter the fuel deivery to accommodate those needs.

[cigdaze]

when i was thinking altitude i was thinking the freezing points and what nots.like chris just said. but i knew you guys would give us the whole truth...and i am assuming i am right that regular old gasoline will not run in them...right???? to big of difference in flashpoint right????
Correct. But only by design and mainly because the majority of turbines are adapted from the aviation industry. Not to say that you can't design a turbine to operate on different fuels, but because there's little-to-no availability, or demand. Chrysler designed and built a turbine car back in the 60's or 70's which could run satisfactorily on leaded gasoline, kerosine or diesel; so has the military for APUs and the like.

[Davidmnc]

Ok, here I go jumping in were I have no business at all, but I have always wondered. How affciant are these engines, and how easy are they to control the power? It just seems like the throttle response is very different from an internal combustion engine. What are the real advantages to a turbine over an internal combustion in a power boat.


Sorry if I sound stupid, but you guys should be used to that by now.

[cigdaze]

Extremely efficient. That's their biggest advantage. Their power-to-weight ratio is unsurpassed. The other major advantage is relatively little maintenance per operating hour (no reciprocating parts - only rotating). Yes, throttling will be different; the response is much slower and they resist change in angular velocity more so than their reciprocating counterparts - but therein lies another advantage, the risk of over-speed is mitigated because rpm spikes are more subtle while launching.

By the way, turbines and reciprocating piston engines are both internal combustion engines. ;)

[Sean H]

Extremely efficient. That's their biggest advantage. Their power-to-weight ratio is unsurpassed. The other major advantage is relatively little maintenance per operating hour (no reciprocating parts - only rotating). Yes, throttling will be different; the response is much slower and they resist change in angular velocity more so than their reciprocating counterparts - but therein lies another advantage, the risk of over-speed is mitigated because rpm spikes are more subtle while launching.

By the way, turbines and reciprocating piston engines are both internal combustion engines. ;)

I am not sure I would classify them as effecient. They burn a dramatically more amount of fuel than a comparable piston engine in a powerboat enviroment. Not to mention while idling and docking you are almost burning the same amount of fuel as running hard.

[cigdaze]

It's all relative. Ya, they guzzle dramatically more fuel, but they're also outputting dramatically more power.
A typical reciprocating engine reaches approximately 25-35% efficiency, while a typical turbine achieves about 65% power output with regards to the chemical potential input. HP for HP, they are much more efficient. Naturally, when outputting 3000+ horsepower they're going to be thirsty.

Good point on the idling, though.

[Sean H]

in the 1500 piston vs 1850 turbine, the turbine takes nearly double the fuel. when bud had their t-55 boat, it burned 4 times more fuel to make twice the power of the sterlings.

we were docked next to geico (and down wind) at biloxi when they burnt 106 gallons idiling for an hour or so between heat races... nothing like ear plugs and stinking of jet A for a hour.

[Chris]

I can tell you that in power generation, the turbine delivers more output per pound of fuel than anything else.

[Coolerman]

in the 1500 piston vs 1850 turbine, the turbine takes nearly double the fuel. when bud had their t-55 boat, it burned 4 times more fuel to make twice the power of the sterlings.

we were docked next to geico (and down wind) at biloxi when they burnt 106 gallons idiling for an hour or so between heat races... nothing like ear plugs and stinking of jet A for a hour.

a 3000hp piston engine would burn more than 4 times the fuel of a 1500hp piston engine though....

[Sean H]

a 3000hp piston engine would burn more than 4 times the fuel of a 1500hp piston engine though....

very true, but the outright speed of the boats changes little... so which is truly more efficient?

turbines in the powerboat world don't get to use their advantage due to the docking/idiling/part throttle/milling fuel consumption is so high. The turbines have to start a race (or even a poker run) with much more fuel than a similiar speed piston boat does.

[phragle]

correct me if I'm wrong...but the turbines are more reliable and live a lot longer with less hassles than 1075's and 1500's, they may use more fuel but they run evey weekend.. if you use the boat a lot, your going into 1075's twice a year if nothing goes wrong... motors in the shop don't get you to the islands.

[Sean H]

correct me if I'm wrong...but the turbines are more reliable and live a lot longer with less hassles than 1075's and 1500's, they may use more fuel but they run evey weekend.. if you use the boat a lot, your going into 1075's twice a year if nothing goes wrong... motors in the shop don't get you to the islands.

they get pulled, inspected, worked on or just break down alot for all their reliablity everybody preaches about...

just in the last 3 races i have been to, i have seen no less than 3 turbines come out and a couple more break during the race... and there are only 3 turbine boats running races...

is it always a turbine issue? probably not, but broke down is broke down.

[cigdaze]

I have no idea which T-55's they are using, but for shts and grins a T-55-L-714 can make make 4168 maximum continuous shaft horsepower. It's specific fuel consumption SFC is 0.494 LB/(HP*H) at 100%. At 6.8LB/gallon, it'll consume 302 gallons per hour making 4168 horsepower. (And it only weighs 830LB)

If you want to slow cruise while only making 2000 horsepower, you're down to 135 gallons per hour. Oh, and the the manufacturer recommends inspection every 3000 hours (but that's when they're breathing air. Ingesting saltwater may slightly decrease the MTBF).

Who makes a 4000 horsepower piston engine? What is it's fuel consumption? What's it weigh? Will it last an hour?

[Sean H]

I have no idea which T-55's they are using, but for shts and grins a T-55-L-714 can make make 4168 maximum continuous shaft horsepower. It's specific fuel consumption SFC is 0.494 LB/(HP*H) at 100%. At 6.8LB/gallon, it'll consume 302 gallons per hour making 4168 horsepower. (And it only weighs 830LB)

If you want to slow cruise while only making 2000 horsepower, you're down to 135 gallons per hour. Oh, and the the manufacturer recommends inspection every 3000 hours (but that's when they're breathing air. Ingesting saltwater may slightly decrease the MTBF).

Who makes a 4000 horsepower piston engine? What is it's fuel consumption? What's it weigh? Will it last an hour?

I was comparing fuel consumption vs power vs speed. HP is great, but if you don't go any faster (for whatever reason) is it any better?

I agree a turbine will make more power for longer. Period. But so far, it doesn't really seem to translate into any real gain in the powerboating world.

In the recreational world, the turbines cost twice as much up front and then still require alot of up keep, just ask Arruda how busy he stays just taking care of a hand full of them. And yes, saltwater is very detrimental to the blades.

Anybody watch Panama City SBI nationals last year? Another weakness of turbines, rough water. Bud walked away from Geico and Aquamania with only Mercury power.

[Perlmudder]

is there a drive out there that can live with 4000+ hp in front of it? what is a 6 or a bpm or a arneson rated at?

[Sean H]

is there a drive out there that can live with 4000+ hp in front of it? what is a 6 or a bpm or a arneson rated at?

there is a boat being built with 4 5000 HP turbines right now, so ya.

[Perlmudder]

there is a boat being built with 4 5000 HP turbines right now, so ya.

pictures?!:drool5:

[phragle]

will it have one of those air force airborne refueling jets flying over it with a tether??

[cigdaze]

I was comparing fuel consumption vs power vs speed. HP is great, but if you don't go any faster (for whatever reason) is it any better?

I agree a turbine will make more power for longer. Period. But so far, it doesn't really seem to translate into any real gain in the powerboating world.

In the recreational world, the turbines cost twice as much up front and then still require alot of up keep, just ask Arruda how busy he stays just taking care of a hand full of them. And yes, saltwater is very detrimental to the blades.

Anybody watch Panama City SBI nationals last year? Another weakness of turbines, rough water. Bud walked away from Geico and Aquamania with only Mercury power.

Yep. I can agree with that. :)

[cigdaze]

there is a boat being built with 4 5000 HP turbines right now, so ya.

Details, man. Details...

[Sean H]

Details, man. Details...

copeland's new boat

[Dude! Sweet!]

Regular tastes sour, supremium tastes a little tangy and diesel actually tastes pretty good. :D

[Perlmudder]

Regular tastes sour, supremium tastes a little tangy and diesel actually tastes pretty good. :D

you WOULD know! :03:

[boostbros]

The Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged two-stroke diesel engine is the most powerful and most efficient prime-mover in the world today. The Aioi Works of Japan's Diesel United, Ltd built the first engines and is where some of these pictures were taken. It is available in 6 through 14 cylinder versions, all are inline engines. These engines were designed primarily for very large container ships. Ship owners like a single engine/single propeller design and the new generation of larger container ships needed a bigger engine to propel them. The cylinder bore is just under 38" and the stroke is just over 98". Each cylinder displaces 111,143 cubic inches (1820 liters) and produces 7780 horsepower. Total displacement comes out to 1,556,002 cubic inches (25,480 liters) for the fourteen cylinder version.

Some facts on the 14 cylinder version:

Total engine weight: 2300 tons (The crankshaft alone weighs 300 tons.)
Length: 89 feet
Height: 44 feet
Maximum power: 108,920 hp at 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft at 102rpm

[Rik]

Callan used the T-55 L11C engines in his cat. These are a (in stock form) 2,650 shp engine.

Jet A is the same thing as Diesel #1, house heating oil, kerosene, etc.. All a Diesel derivative. Nothing special. The turbines can be adjusted with the specific gravity and fuel flow dividers and such to burn different fuel densities. Densities are different based upon the fuel, 6.8 lb/gal is Jet A Gasoline has a different density as well as Diesel. Note: this is most important for starting purposes as once the engine is running it is running on what ever will burn.

As for reliability, well stock is stock, modified is modified. Nothing last for ever and modified last even less.

Salt water can present problems and on a tweaked engine it presents even more problems.

[KnotRight]

they get pulled, inspected, worked on or just break down alot for all their reliablity everybody preaches about...

just in the last 3 races i have been to, i have seen no less than 3 turbines come out and a couple more break during the race... and there are only 3 turbine boats running races...

is it always a turbine issue? probably not, but broke down is broke down.

I have but one question if I may.
What is the common factor with these Turbine powered boats?

[KnotRight]

So what is the difference between the type of fuel run in an airplane and the type of fuel run in a turbine cat? Aren't the turbines pretty similar? Does a plane run "jet" fuel while a turbine cat runs diesel fuel or regular gasoline?

Sort of confused about this whole thing...

Refining is the difference.

This taken from how things work.

The oil refining process starts with a fractional distillation column.

Different hydrocarbon chain lengths all have progressively higher boiling points, so they can all be separated by distillation. This is what happens in an oil refinery - in one part of the process, crude oil is heated and the different chains are pulled out by their vaporization temperatures. Each different chain length has a different property that makes it useful in a different way.


**Petroleum gas - used for heating, cooking, making plastics
small alkanes (1 to 4 carbon atoms)
commonly known by the names methane, ethane, propane, butane
boiling range = less than 104 degrees Fahrenheit / 40 degrees Celsius
often liquified under pressure to create LPG (liquified petroleum gas)

**Naphtha or Ligroin - intermediate that will be further processed to make gasoline
mix of 5 to 9 carbon atom alkanes
boiling range = 140 to 212 degrees Fahrenheit / 60 to 100 degrees Celsius

**Gasoline - motor fuel
liquid
mix of alkanes and cycloalkanes (5 to 12 carbon atoms)
boiling range = 104 to 401 degrees Fahrenheit / 40 to 205 degrees Celsius
**Kerosene - fuel for jet engines and tractors; starting material for making other products
liquid
mix of alkanes (10 to 18 carbons) and aromatics
boiling range = 350 to 617 degrees Fahrenheit / 175 to 325 degrees Celsius

**Gas oil or Diesel distillate - used for diesel fuel and heating oil; starting material for making other products
liquid
alkanes containing 12 or more carbon atoms
boiling range = 482 to 662 degrees Fahrenheit / 250 to 350 degrees Celsius

**Lubricating oil - used for motor oil, grease, other lubricants
liquid
long chain (20 to 50 carbon atoms) alkanes, cycloalkanes, aromatics
boiling range = 572 to 700 degrees Fahrenheit / 300 to 370 degrees Celsius

**Heavy gas or Fuel oil - used for industrial fuel; starting material for making other products
liquid
long chain (20 to 70 carbon atoms) alkanes, cycloalkanes, aromatics
boiling range = 700 to 1112 degrees Fahrenheit / 370 to 600 degrees Celsius

**Residuals - coke, asphalt, tar, waxes; starting material for making other products
solid
multiple-ringed compounds with 70 or more carbon atoms
boiling range = greater than 1112 degrees Fahrenheit / 600 degrees Celsius

[KnotRight]

Some more random thoughts.

A piston engine creates power on its power stroke. Hence a
4 Cycle engine.

With me?

A Turbine creates power continuisly.

Fuel consumption is higher overall primarly because Turbines Idle
at 50% of the maxium RPM.
The difference at max RPM is rather close to there piston counter part.

The only two Items that must be present for a Turbine to continue
to run is air and fuel.

Internaly a Turbine creates power all on a horizontal plane.

A piston counterpart has more up and down and vertical going on then
a Britney Spairs sleep over.

Remember all this the next time ya board that plane going to Vegas.:)

[KnotRight]

Ok, here I go jumping in were I have no business at all, but I have always wondered. How affciant are these engines, and how easy are they to control the power? It just seems like the throttle response is very different from an internal combustion engine. What are the real advantages to a turbine over an internal combustion in a power boat.


Sorry if I sound stupid, but you guys should be used to that by now.

This is a good question!

Turbines build power exponetially with rpm. They do not "spool down"
quickly. For Example you cannot just whack the throttle.
as in a piston engine. Yes you can slam it forward however it will
increase in RPM slower. The same applies in pulling back on the throttles.
The Turbine will wind down.
Throttling a Turbine boat is much different as you may guess.

The biggest enemy to Turbines is heat.
Give her enough air and she will live for thousands of hours.