At what speed do you wear lifevests?

[GRADS]

I saw this video on another website and thought they were crazy for not wearing vests. At what speed do you wear yours? Personally if I'm going any faster than an idle I'm wearing mine. I like the speed, I just don't have a death wish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umeo77pyOoo

[Trim'd Up]

You are right, you should probably wear PFD's anytime your on plane. But, in all honesty I don't often wear mine. There is definitely no set speed when I put one on, depends, on the boat, the water conditons, and I guess what mood I am in. Not that it makes it right, but of all of the stupid dangerous chit I have done in my life running without a PFD is way down the list. By the way I think the guy in the video is a member here.

[Ratickle]

You are right, you should probably wear PFD's anytime your on plane. But, in all honesty I don't often wear mine. There is definitely no set speed when I put one on, depends, on the boat, the water conditons, and I guess what mood I am in. Not that it makes it right, but of all of the stupid dangerous chit I have done in my life running without a PFD is way down the list. By the way I think the guy in the video is a member here.

He is.

I don't really have a speed, per say. It mostly depends on water conditions combined with speed. It could be fairly slow in big stuff, or almost never in flat stuff.

At the speeds he was running, I may not wear it, but my passengers would have them on.

He sure has a sweet boat.:drool5:

[Chris]

You should probably wear them anytime you're on the water and don't want to drown.

At 110+, it probably doesn't matter though.

[Magic Medicine]

He is.

I don't really have a speed, per say. It mostly depends on water conditions combined with speed. It could be fairly slow in big stuff, or almost never in flat stuff.

At the speeds he was running, I may not wear it, but my passengers would have them on.

He sure has a sweet boat.:drool5:

what he said, liability can rear its ugly head

[Sean Stinson]

You can drown in less than a cup of water especially if unconcious so the rest you can figure out yourselves

[JupiterSunsation]

You should probably wear them anytime you're on the water and don't want to drown.

At 110+, it probably doesn't matter though.

helps with the body recovery..........

[JupiterSunsation]

My kids have to wear them when even standing on the dock (ages 4 + 8). Never want to have an issue when a kid falls in between the boat/dock. They don't even think twice about wearing them on the boat since they have done it everytime since they were babies......

Usually the water conditions are more cause to wear than speed. Flat water at 60 doesn't seem as crazy as 40 in 3-5's.... But I would guess you get really mad at yourself as you are treading water because you didn't think it was rough enough to wear one.......

[GENERAL LEE]

We wear them 99% of the time on my boat.

Other than general safety, the main reason is because I don't always know when my buddies will be out, and I don't want to have to stop to make everyone buckle up if we spot one to go run with.

They've become almost like seatbelts for me, meaning it almost feels strange to NOT have them on in my boat.

[T2x]

I wear mine all of the time........ in all of my boats.

So does Darren.

When you think your talent is good enough to drive without one...or you feel the driver of a boat you are riding in, is good enough, you're wrong.......... Some of the greatest drivers in boat racing history were killed or maimed in accidents.

Anybody know who the "Icon" is in the center of the middle picture?

T2x

[GENERAL LEE]

Anybody know who the "Icon" is in the center of the middle picture?

T2x

That'd be Daredevil Darren! :driving:

Have you had the Wing out recently?

[Ratickle]

Heard from James, You guys can talk to him later...



safa 1

Re: Lifevests

thanks for the info, we wear the vests when the water is rough, plus i don't run hard when its bad, you can in the video that water was glass and no one around , please post that for me ill get on there later , got to much work to do, thanks

[baddogz28]

Last year it all depended on conditions for me, I think this year I'm a little wiser and will probably have everybody wear em more. There's no reason to have little hotties on the boat if they bounce out and drown.

[MANITIE]

The thing that suprised me the most...only a small % of deaths are caused in high speed accidents...thats not to say don't wear a life jacket...but a majority of boating fatalities are at slow speeds...fishing boats over turning...pleasure boats with passengers falling off the bow....hunters on boats....kayakers...people getting cut by props...and so on....I was very suprised in the #'s....the real eye opener was the C.G. has reported that over 80% of boating fatalities could have been prevented if they had been wearing a life jacket...in high speed accidents it is hard for them to determain if they could have surrived a high speed accident...but when you read these reports of each fatality and accidents...you can see they were caused by very very poor judgement...but the C.G. and the B.S.C. feels that if you just put on a life jacket every time you step on a boat and just take a boating safety course this would drop the amount of accidents and fatalities by big numbers....we have had some good success on working with insurance companies on giving a discount on just take a Boating Safety Course...but if you really think about it...at any speed if any equipment failured accured...just think of the out come...not to mention humman error...

[T2x]

That'd be Daredevil Darren!


Nope, Darren's in the bottom picture.


The "aerial acrobat" in boat #76 in the middle picture........is Reggie Fountain getting his money's worth from a life jacket.

T2x

[redhotsommer]

I usually let water conditions dictate...and this year, I think I'll be a bit more cautious yet...I guess that happens when you age. Finally started wearing a helmet full time on the snowboard...

[Ratickle]

At 110+, it probably doesn't matter though.


We wear them 99% of the time on my boat.
the main reason is because I don't want to have to stop to make everyone buckle up if we spot one to go run with.



I wear mine all of the time........ in all of my boats.
Some of the greatest drivers in boat racing history were killed or maimed in accidents.
T2x


The "aerial acrobat" in boat #76 in the middle picture........is Reggie Fountain getting his money's worth from a life jacket.
T2x

Okay, so what is the fastest speed a life jacket has been credited with saving someones life?

And, on the same note, should we be wearing helmets above a certain speed?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

It is such a crap shoot when boating. I like T2x 's answer all the time.

Do I no. I should.

Incidentally , I didn't think you could get hurt at 60 mph with a helmet and lifeline on. I raced in Key West in 93 in a factory boat. I broke 9 ribs on a bad hop. Through my lifeline.

Boy was I wrong. If I had any sense I would have know we were in the lead by a long shot. Still got a trophy for second. To go with my ambulance ride and a bottle of percodans.

[Airpacker]

it is such a crap shoot when boating. I like t2x 's answer all the time.

Do i no. I should.

Incidentally , i didn't think you could get hurt at 60 mph with a helmet and lifeline on. I raced in key west in 93 in a factory boat. I broke 9 ribs on a bad hop. Through my lifeline.

Boy was i wrong. If i had any sense i would have know we were in the lead by a long shot. Still got a trophy for second. To go with my ambulance ride and a bottle of percodans.

ouch!

[Ratickle]

It is such a crap shoot when boating. I like T2x 's answer all the time.

Do I no. I should.

Incidentally , I didn't think you could get hurt at 60 mph with a helmet and lifeline on. I raced in Key West in 93 in a factory boat. I broke 9 ribs on a bad hop. Through my lifeline.

Boy was I wrong. If I had any sense I would have know we were in the lead by a long shot. Still got a trophy for second. To go with my ambulance ride and a bottle of percodans.

I've crashed at well over 100 water skiing. Didn't get hurt too bad, would have drowned the one time without a good jacket on though...

[GENERAL LEE]

Okay, so what is the fastest speed a life jacket has been credited with saving someones life?

And, on the same note, should we be wearing helmets above a certain speed?

I'm definitely not saying anyone should do as I do. I was just posting my personal habits. My boat is definitely fast enough to make many question if a jacket would matter. To me it's a no brainer for many reasons, other than I can't find any reasons not to wear them. Since I'd assume drowning would be the first thing that would kill you, I don't think helmets have as many benefits/comparisons between water and street, as a lifejacket on water does.

There have been lots of drag boat, hydroplane, and offshore racers saved from their lifejacket in the past. Yes, many have died, but many have lived that would have otherwise sank/drown after being knocked out. I'd say any open cockpit drag boat from the last 20+ years will do at least 120+ in the quarter? That's extremely fast, but at least you'd have a chance with a high speed jacket on.

[safa 1]

I saw this video on another website and thought they were crazy for not wearing vests. At what speed do you wear yours? Personally if I'm going any faster than an idle I'm wearing mine. I like the speed, I just don't have a death wish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umeo77pyOoo
thanks for your concern , i boat mostly in lake havasu and I never saw anyone wearing life vests [fast or slow] , i know its dangerous,but i only run the boat hard when i know its safe , be honest running the skater at 120 to 140 it feels like a Cadillac, i have full control of the boat, again thank you all for your comments, im glad to see all you guys are much safer then us:)

[catastrophe]

thanks for your concern , i boat mostly in lake havasu and I never saw anyone wearing life vests [fast or slow] , i know its dangerous,but i only run the boat hard when i know its safe , be honest running the skater at 120 to 140 it feels like a Cadillac, i have full control of the boat, again thank you all for your comments, im glad to see all you guys are much safer then us:)

Its like a Cadillac allright...until something breaks or a transmission or drive takes a hike.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

thanks for your concern , i boat mostly in lake havasu and I never saw anyone wearing life vests [fast or slow] , i know its dangerous,but i only run the boat hard when i know its safe , be honest running the skater at 120 to 140 it feels like a Cadillac, i have full control of the boat, again thank you all for your comments, im glad to see all you guys are much safer then us:)

I guess you haven't been hurt or learned a hard lesson yet.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I mean no disrespect.

No one is immune to misfortune

[masher44]

Its how you land, not how fast you land.

[safa 1]

look cant we all just get along , no really i understand your guy's point, im not the only one and you guys know that, if its that important it should be enforced

[Pit]

Its how you land, not how fast you land.


And sometimes you do not know how or when you are going to land.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

James,

We are just sharing opinions.

Be safe.

[safa 1]

James,

We are just sharing opinions.

Be safe.
thanks Jim, have a good night

[Tommy Gun]

My general rule is jacket on and kill switch hooked up anytime the boat is going up on plane...I've been asked if I know how to swim.

Its not me I'm concerned about...

[Expensive Date]

Always and a helmet if in the ocean if its rough.About 10 years ago I was running my Jet-Ski hard in late Sept. it was mid week and nobody was around took a wave wrong and got chucked of.My ankle hit the ski on the way off and I originally thought it was broke.I also had my kill switch on so thinking my ankle was broke I swam back to the ski using only my arms and pulled myself up.Turned out my ankle was not broke just a bad sprain.But without a vest don't know if the outcome would have been different if you have never hit the water at 60 you have no idea how hard it is and how long you will slide intill you go under.
Every piece of safety equipment you have on increases you chances of survival I do not run a boat without a vest

[Trim'd Up]

look cant we all just get along , no really i understand your guy's point, im not the only one and you guys know that, if its that important it should be enforced
I definitely don't think it should be enforced. The government is "protecting" us way more than they should now. To me, it is personal choice, just like seat belts would be if it wasn't for insurance lobbyists.

Honestly, it is amazing I survived my younger days on the water. I used to think the throttle was an on/off switch, no matter what the water conditions, and never wore a life jacket or kill switch for that matter. As I have gotten older, I have become more aware of the dangers.

A couple of years ago I pulled a couple people out of the water missing limbs after a boating accident (that was caused by pure stupidity). I have seen people tossed out in relatively smooth water good sized boats, and have had some close calls myself. My driving style has definitely changed, along with my drinking style. Unfortunately I still don't wear my life jacket often enough.

[catastrophe]

QUESTION

Does everyone agree that POKER RUN organizers insist on Lifevest usage or expulsion from event?

[Trim'd Up]

I busted myself up on a sea-doo before too. I am not sure how things would have been without the life jacket. I went over the bike at 60 or so, and it then went over me, but luckily I blocked it with my face. :D

[Chris]

QUESTION

Does everyone agree that POKER RUN organizers insist on Lifevest usage or expulsion from event?

Absolutely. Purely from a liability perspective, if nothing else.

I've been in boats without a vest before and afterwards I've always felt stupid. I also know that people succumb to peer pressure. If the captain has one on, it's easier for everyone else to wear one. I've woken up bobbing in the water and was glad the vest stayed on.

But this is all about personal choice. If you don't want to wear one, that should be up to you. But like smoking, if you get lung cancer, that's the price you pay for the choices you made. But think for a moment about those you bring along with you. Often they're not knowledgeable at all about the sport and its risks. You not wearing one implicityly tell your passegers they don't need one. That's not something I'm comfortable doing.

[catastrophe]

But like smoking, if you get lung cancer, that's the price you pay for the choices you made.


Little different outlook up here. When you get lung cancer up here EVERYBODY pays for it.
If everyone isnt wearing a lifejacket you can't help one another if there is an incident.

Take it from someone that almost died with 5 of my friends in 2003. Thank God sh t floats.

[AugiePensa]

I'd say all the time. Life jackets have SAVED me Twice in racing accidents. By all accounts I shouldn't be typing right now. Thank You God and Lifeline!

[Ratickle]

QUESTION

Does everyone agree that POKER RUN organizers insist on Lifevest usage or expulsion from event?

Absolutely. It's tough enough to get event insurance and have your boat insured for it. No excuses for not in any organized event. Crap happens...

[glh]

Okay, so what is the fastest speed a life jacket has been credited with saving someones life?

And, on the same note, should we be wearing helmets above a certain speed?This guy wiped out at over Mach 3....

great read


http://www.alexisparkinn.com/sr-71_break-up.htm

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/93424469_c4133a3f18.jpg

[cuda]

QUESTION

Does everyone agree that POKER RUN organizers insist on Lifevest usage or expulsion from event?

Yes!

[jetmech]

All the time ... everytime we go out ... as already stated ... At least it will be easier finding me .

[cuda]

I'd much rather wear one and not need it, than visa versa.

I had a good friend drown a few years back. He was tossed from his boat at about 35, and people saw him treading water until he just slipped under the water. He'd still be with us today if he had put on a life jacket.

If you don't do it for yourself, do it for the one's who care about you. I can guarantee they won't mention at your eulogy how fast you were going when you drownd.

[cuda]

thanks for your concern , i boat mostly in lake havasu and I never saw anyone wearing life vests [fast or slow] , i know its dangerous,but i only run the boat hard when i know its safe , be honest running the skater at 120 to 140 it feels like a Cadillac, i have full control of the boat, again thank you all for your comments, im glad to see all you guys are much safer then us:)

I didn't know Caddilacs were immuned to wrecks. Why bother putting a steering wheel in them, much less seat belts?

(note to self: Never boat on Havasu)

[VetteLT193]

I haven't ever worn one except for in sea-doos... but am going to make an effort this year to do so.

[Knot 4 Me]

I have a Lifeline that I wear when running hard regardless of what the occasion is or conditions are. When cruising or cove hopping, I do not wear one but I should.

[Chris]

What cracks me up is the guys wearing canopy vests in open boats. The little self-inflator thingys. Talk about a false sense of safety.

GLH nailed it. A life vest in a performance boat and a parachute in a high-performance jet- great anaogy.

[masher44]

My passengers usually request two lifelines each

[Tank]

Totality of the circumstances dictates when I wear one.

Been well over 100 in calm lake water with out a vest.

Been doing 10 mph in 8 foot seas and 40mph winds in the ocean and had a vest on.

I've seen people die at 30 mph with vests on and die at 110+ with vests on. Sh!t happens, a vest doesn't mean you're going to survive a catostraphic event. If it's your time to go, you-are-outtahere!

Just my .02

[cuda]

Totality of the circumstances dictates when I wear one.

Been well over 100 in calm lake water with out a vest.

Been doing 10 mph in 8 foot seas and 40mph winds in the ocean and had a vest on.

I've seen people die at 30 mph with vests on and die at 110+ with vests on. Sh!t happens, a vest doesn't mean you're going to survive a catostraphic event. If it's your time to go, you-are-outtahere!

Just my .02

It means you are 80% less likely to drown. You say when it your time, you're outta here. I'm not sure, but I bet it increases your odds at least tenfold of NOT shooting yourself, if you DON'T play Russian Roulette. You're playing Russian Roulette with your lifejackets, and your life.

[cuda]

I haven't ever worn one except for in sea-doos... but am going to make an effort this year to do so.

You better, or I'll tell mama you may make an orphan of that new baby. :)

[cuda]

What cracks me up is the guys wearing canopy vests in open boats. The little self-inflator thingys. Talk about a false sense of safety.

GLH nailed it. A life vest in a performance boat and a parachute in a high-performance jet- great anaogy.

Yep, good luck on it staying on you at anything over 20 mph.

[Traviss]

well I do 90% of the time. 80+ in a 18 ftr.. I'm not dying in this deathtrap :eek:

[T2x]

I guess you haven't been hurt or learned a hard lesson yet.

That's the point exactly. Somebody(s) dies and safety comes back around. Time passes and then somebody else (who missed the funeral) buys a boat, thinks it rides like a limousine and doesn't realize how fast things can go wrong if a prop comes off, or a drive seizes, or he thinks it handles so well he can turn it just a little tighter....in calm water...at 100 much less 130. Bottom line, before you have time to react or even blink, bodies are flying around ballistically, your windshield is slicing your arm off, and your wife is doing a face plant into your cute little billet speaker cover. Believe me having life jackets on provides flotation and rib/upper body protection (especially with the ballistic inserts). Having gone right through the cockpit wall of a race boat and been upside down more times than I care to remember, I know first hand that good lifejackets are worth their weight in platinum times 10.

By the way the logic behind rough versus calm water life jacket wearing completely escapes me. High speed accidents occur more often in calm water. Rough water slows you down...but can sink more boats. :D

One more thing, no matter how good you think you are as a driver...if you have kids, or people who love you.....see the picture below.



T2x

[AugiePensa]

Another good pratice is wearing kill switches along with your Lifeline jacket in open boats. Maybe even a helmet. We stuffed in NYC in 2004, the doctors in the hospital said if I hadn't had a helmet and the lifeline on I wouldn't be here. My helmet (which was a Bell and three months old) cracked in four places. The thickness of the lifeline and the colar prevented my neck from snapping. Cracked two bones in the neck but I'm still here...Kinda. Just a thought. I have a lot more respect for the water.

[T2x]

Another good pratice is wearing kill switches along with your Lifeline jacket in open boats. Maybe even a helmet. We stuffed in NYC in 2004, the doctors in the hospital said if I hadn't had a helmet and the lifeline on I wouldn't be here. My helmet (which was a Bell and three months old) cracked in four places. The thickness of the lifeline and the colar prevented my neck from snapping. Cracked two bones in the neck but I'm still here...Kinda. Just a thought. I have a lot more respect for the water.

Augie:

For purposes of educating others....How fast were you going when that happened?

Rich

[Ratickle]

My passengers usually request two lifelines each

And a hope to ride with someone else....:sifone:

[T2x]

Okay, so what is the fastest speed a life jacket has been credited with saving someones life?

And, on the same note, should we be wearing helmets above a certain speed?

In terms of really high speed (hydroplane) accidents

Life jackets have frequently kept people afloat wih massive injuries long enough to have been saved. Without a jacket they would have slipped unconsciously under water..and been lost. This happened most recently in Maryland, as I recall, a year or two back.

As far as helmets are concerned, they can't hurt. At speeds over 100 probably a good idea.......see "face plant" comment above. There is a higher risk of "bucketing" if you are thrown out or encounter a blast of water with a full face helmet, so either a flip up mouth guard or some form of neck brace/HANS device is also a good idea.

T2x

[Ratickle]

In terms of really high speed (hydroplane) accidents

Life jackets have frequently kept people afloat wih massive injuries long enough to have been saved. Without a jacket they would have slipped unconsciously under water..and been lost. This happened most recently in Maryland, as I recall, a year or two back.

As far as helmets are concerned, they can't hurt. At speeds over 100 probably a good idea.......see "face plant" comment above. There is a higher risk of "bucketing" if you are thrown out or encounter a blast of water with a full face helmet, so either a flip up mouth guard or some form of neck brace/HANS device is also a good idea.

T2x


Way back when I lived out west, the drag boat guys were working with a helmet design that wouldn't bucket. They were having a hard time getting it approved. I also believe Chip Hanauer (?) was part of it because of Muncie. Maybe Nordskog also. Any idea where that project went?

[lucky strike]

That's the point exactly. Somebody(s) dies and safety comes back around. Time passes and then somebody else (who missed the funeral) buys a boat, thinks it rides like a limousine and doesn't realize how fast things can go wrong if a prop comes off, or a drive seizes, or he thinks it handles so well he can turn it just a little tighter....in calm water...at 100 much less 130. Bottom line, before you have time to react or even blink, bodies are flying around ballistically, your windshield is slicing your arm off, and your wife is doing a face plant into your cute little billet speaker cover. Believe me having life jackets on provides flotation and rib/upper body protection (especially with the ballistic inserts). Having gone right through the cockpit wall of a race boat and been upside down more times than I care to remember, I know first hand that good lifejackets are worth their weight in platinum times 10.

By the way the logic behind rough versus calm water life jacket wearing completely escapes me. High speed accidents occur more often in calm water. Rough water slows you down...but can sink more boats. :D

One more thing, no matter how good you think you are as a driver...if you have kids, or people who love you.....see the picture below.



T2x

Everything you said, says it all.

[T2x]

Way back when I lived out west, the drag boat guys were working with a helmet design that wouldn't bucket. They were having a hard time getting it approved. I also believe Chip Hanauer (?) was part of it because of Muncie. Maybe Nordskog also. Any idea where that project went?

That was the Nordskog helmet or so it was called. When we had the very first safety meeting back in 1987, after Mark Lavin was killed and while the Lavin Foundation was being set up, Bob Nordskog, Gary Garbrecht, George Linder, representatives from Bell helmets and Lifeline among others were called on to provide expertise and a technology baseline. We all got together in Los Angeles and Bob Nordskog was adamant about his helmet design. It was a fibreglass skull cap with an optional leather "turtleneck" that wrapped around your neck and shoulders before crossing under your armpits. It prevented any helmet "bucketing" no doubt. What Bob would not accept was that the injuries (basal skull fractures) that killed Mark, and almost took Bobby Saccenti from our midst a few months earlier, were impact based not bucket injuries. He became quite angry and thought we were wasting our time talking about canopies, cockpit reinforcement and oxygen systems, while paying little attention to his helmet design which, by the way, could not get a D.O.T. construction or safety rating and therefore was never approved.

There were a few copies of his helmet made and one of them wound up in the hands of my tunnel boat racing buddy, Marty O'Neill, on the east coast. I am sure that he was safer wearing it in an open cockpit, ultralight racing hull where you were pitched out with minor impacts in flips and wound up skidding along the water's surface, but in a large offshore cockpit that dynamic is very different. I clearly recall Bob Teague (Nordskog's crew chief) laughing for years at people who thought canopies were a good idea... ( Real men race standing up of course :D)....until he did a "Face Plant" into the upper dash board of his open cockpit, Fountain Vee in Corpus Christi after a minor hook in a turn. Today he is the two (or more) time Champion in Super Cat light...sitting down .....in a full cockpit Skater.

[Ratickle]

Best for an open cockpit, fast, poker run/pleasure boat?

[T2x]

Best for an open cockpit, fast, poker run/pleasure boat?

Lifeline jackets for all, kill switches hooked up at all times when the engine is running and I would wear a helmet in any kind of event with triple digit speeds. ...........Because among other things you can never be sure that some schmuck won't run over your boat while he smiles at the "hottie" in the back seat of his.

T2x

[T2x]

Somehow I think this "Cadillac" is a related issue....... :p

[24skater]

We wear them all the time

[cuda]

Things can go very badly, very quickly on the water, even at 50 mph. Not wearing a lifevest doesn't prove how tough you are, but it's pretty good evidence of ignorance.

Always remember, Mother Nature ain't no lady.

[Ratickle]

Things can go very badly, very quickly on the water, even at 50 mph. Not wearing a lifevest doesn't prove how tough you are, but it's pretty good evidence of ignorance.

Always remember, Mother Nature ain't no lady.

I can't tell you how many times I've been in situations where I could have really been killed but got lucky. I know what you mean.

[Tank]

It means you are 80% less likely to drown. You say when it your time, you're outta here. I'm not sure, but I bet it increases your odds at least tenfold of NOT shooting yourself, if you DON'T play Russian Roulette. You're playing Russian Roulette with your lifejackets, and your life.

Technically you're playing russian roulette every time you get into a boat, or everytime you ride a motorcycle, or drive a car, or sky dive, or ride motorcross, snowmobile, etc etc etc.

My opinion in this subject has always been opposite of most on these boards. I've always thought; if you don't want to wear your jacket, more power to you. It's your right and one of the last freedoms in extreme hobbies that's left. think offshore boating is one of the last great past times. You can go out and (for the most part) run your sh1t however you want to in the ocean or on your lake.

You say it increases my chance of dying, well f*ck it I say. I also used to ride motorcycles in ca without a helmet (and still do in Hawaii), I also used to not wear a seat belt when driving and sometimes still forget. I've also driven so fast in so many different cars, motorcycles and boats I couldn't tell you how many times.

So no, I don't wear a life jacket all the time and I can pretty much gaurantee the majority of members here wear them less than more often. I understand your point bit "Russian roulette"? Hardley. More like calculated risk just like everything else in life.

[jet]

kills and jackets in anything that can go over 30 mph is the rule but everyone know's what rule's are for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBn_jt01j30 this was flat water but still vary stupid on my part ......................after 30+ years of fast boats my worst day on the lake happened at 38 mph ya just never know

[GRADS]

I think it's fairly obvious why this boat blew over.:rofl:
http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/2199/cadillacboat.jpg (http://img2.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cadillacboat.jpg)

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Freighter wake?:biggrinjester:

[Revd Up]

I wear mine more than 90% of the time with laynard . I should wear a helmet. Like others have said, if you have ever been hurt, you will think a little different.

[cuda]

Technically you're playing russian roulette every time you get into a boat, or everytime you ride a motorcycle, or drive a car, or sky dive, or ride motorcross, snowmobile, etc etc etc.

My opinion in this subject has always been opposite of most on these boards. I've always thought; if you don't want to wear your jacket, more power to you. It's your right and one of the last freedoms in extreme hobbies that's left. think offshore boating is one of the last great past times. You can go out and (for the most part) run your sh1t however you want to in the ocean or on your lake.

You say it increases my chance of dying, well f*ck it I say. I also used to ride motorcycles in ca without a helmet (and still do in Hawaii), I also used to not wear a seat belt when driving and sometimes still forget. I've also driven so fast in so many different cars, motorcycles and boats I couldn't tell you how many times.

So no, I don't wear a life jacket all the time and I can pretty much gaurantee the majority of members here wear them less than more often. I understand your point bit "Russian roulette"? Hardley. More like calculated risk just like everything else in life.
You're so tough you must wipe your butt with barbwire.

I don't run with scissors in my hand either.

[glh]

Somehow I think this "Cadillac" is a related issue....... :pI see no problems with those pictures.... I just hope the thing is still in the air and hasn't landed yet! :D

[40FlatDeck]

Wow you guys are tough!!!!! James is a good guy and sometimes we make mistakes. Yes, at 120 a 40 Skater IS a Cadillac....I have lost a drive over 140 and it came to a nice straight stop. Would that happen every time?? Maybe, maybe not.
All I'm saying is sometimes you are running fast and really forget for a second how quickly speeds can build in these things. I'm sure he does not make it a habit, but he was nice enough to show us some cool videos and all that ends up happening is 30 posts flaming him.:dupe:
98% of the time everyone in my boat wears LifeLines over 100, a couple times we might not. That does not make me or anybody else that does the same a "unsafe boater". And yes, I have broken almost 15+ bones, so I know bad things happen, all I'm saying is cut the guy some slack.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Erik, Some of these posts are feeding on them selves. I wouldn't take them as flaming him. There are some strong opinions and not everyone is perfect. Fast boats are dangerous and this is a sensitive subject.

[Ratickle]

Wow you guys are tough!!!!! James is a good guy and sometimes we make mistakes. Yes, at 120 a 40 Skater IS a Cadillac....I have lost a drive over 140 and it came to a nice straight stop. Would that happen every time?? Maybe, maybe not.
All I'm saying is sometimes you are running fast and really forget for a second how quickly speeds can build in these things. I'm sure he does not make it a habit, but he was nice enough to show us some cool videos and all that ends up happening is 30 posts flaming him.:dupe:
98% of the time everyone in my boat wears LifeLines over 100, a couple times we might not. That does not make me or anybody else that does the same a "unsafe boater". And yes, I have broken almost 15+ bones, so I know bad things happen, all I'm saying is cut the guy some slack.

Hey Eric, very few of the posts are flaming him. Cool video, almost all of us have done similar. Anything over 80, at least my passengers have them on. I'm not always so smart..... If I'm by myself, for sure am not as good as I should be.... Gonna try to get better though.

And look at the thought behind it. Not a single one of us want to see anything happen to anyone here that could have been prevented. That is really the root of the discussion.

[Sea-Dated]

My passengers usually request two lifelines each

Yes we do......:biggrinjester:

[Tank]

You're so tough you must wipe your butt with barbwire.

I don't run with scissors in my hand either.

Has nothing to do with "being so tough". Has everything to do with my right to choose weather I wear a vest or not and everything to do with calculated risk.

In a nation that continues to crack down on laws and continues to restrict our hobbies, the last thing I (and the rest of us for that matter) need is for others in our hobby to stand up on their f*cking soap box and preach.

We all know the risks. To get on here and type all this B.S. does nothing but aid in the restriction process. So, if more restrictions is your goal….Kudos to you.

[T2x]

Has nothing to do with "being so tough". Has everything to do with my right to choose weather I wear a vest or not and everything to do with calculated risk.

In a nation that continues to crack down on laws and continues to restrict our hobbies, the last thing I (and the rest of us for that matter) need is for others in our hobby to stand up on their f*cking soap box and preach.

We all know the risks. To get on here and type all this B.S. does nothing but aid in the restriction process. So, if more restrictions is your goal….Kudos to you.

Understood......and I am all for Liberty in most of our activities...especially speed on the water...the last frontier as you say....but here's the rub.

You go out and run 100+ without any safety equipment...or clothes of any kind for that matter..... You screw up....you die and so do your passengers..... all because you made a choice...and you paid the price. So far....so good....until...

The next day the media has pictures and headlines.."Crazy, nude, Right winger, crashes speed boat with 2 onboard-- Search crews halt activities because of darkness"....... They then interview your crying family members and friends. Performance websites by this time are now alive with posts from your buddies who describe you as a "great driver" who must have had an "equipment failure" because you were "too talented" to make a mistake at any speed. We have to read post after post on "limits on our sport" and blah, blah, blah. "After all it was only 3000 HP" and "Big Louie has twice that much".
Fired up by this and nursing his own agenda, Liberal Congressman Cecil Clueless arrives, immediately calls for speed limits, noise abatements, driver's licensing on the water, increased registration fees to fund added patrol and monitoring efforts and higher marine gas taxes to discourage "useless horsepower". Greenpeace then shows up and protests all of the insurance companies that cover Hi-performance boats.

The end result? Your poor choice of "personal liberty"...deprives the rest of us of ours.

T2x

[T2x]

And yes, I have broken almost 15+ bones, so I know bad things happen, all I'm saying is cut the guy some slack.

No.

[Tank]

Understood......and I am all for Liberty in most of our activities...especially speed on the water...the last frontier as you say....but here's the rub.

You go out and run 100+ without any safety equipment...or clothes of any kind for that matter..... You screw up....you die and so do your passengers..... all because you made a choice...and you paid the price. So far....so good....until...

The next day the media has pictures and headlines.."Crazy, nude, Right winger, crashes speed boat with 2 onboard-- Search crews halt activities because of darkness"....... They then interview your crying family members and friends. Performance websites by this time are now alive with posts from your buddies who describe you as a "great driver" who must have had an "equipment failure" because you were "too talented" to make a mistake at any speed. We have to read post after post on "limits on our sport" and blah, blah, blah. "After all it was only 3000 HP" and "Big Louie has twice that much".
Fired up by this and nursing his own agenda, Liberal Congressman Cecil Clueless arrives, immediately calls for speed limits, noise abatements, driver's licensing on the water, increased registration fees to fund added patrol and monitoring efforts and higher marine gas taxes to discourage "useless horsepower". Greenpeace then shows up and protests all of the insurance companies that cover Hi-performance boats.

The end result? Your poor choice of "personal liberty"...deprives the rest of us of ours.

T2x


We are on the exact same page....Except for one little detail....

Doesn't matter if you were naked and crashed, killing 5 or you were wearing a vest, lanyards and helmet and were seriously injured. Those that want to restrict our sport, will use a collision whether safety equipment were involved or not.

Most importantly (and this is my main point on this thread.....and topic in general). It does us NO GOOD to comment on this subject in an open forum! Because all it's going to take when so and so kills themselves driving naked at 100 mph is for congressman Cecil Clueless to pull this thread up and say, "Even those involved in the sport like T2x, who has extensive background in racing and running boats at high speeds, agrees life vests and lanyards should be worn at all times...And that is why I propose this new law that will mandate life vests being worn by all passenger and driver when the boat is in motion....And while we're at it I also propose the mandate a 55 mph speed limit on all bodies of water. Because a life vest really isn't going to save someones life at over 100 mph when your head collides with the dash at that speed."

I say:

A) Doesn't matter how much you argue people should wear their vests, most wont. You're not going to change peoples minds on the topic.

B) (Due to the above) All the pounding on the keyboards in an attempt to make people see it your way, will only further assist those (insurance companies and law-makers who are getting money from them) that seek to restrict our hobby.

[MarylandMark]

I vow to wear mine more each year and not up to 100% but getting closer and closer.

[Revd Up]

Understood......and I am all for Liberty in most of our activities...especially speed on the water...the last frontier as you say....but here's the rub.

You go out and run 100+ without any safety equipment...or clothes of any kind for that matter..... You screw up....you die and so do your passengers..... all because you made a choice...and you paid the price. So far....so good....until...

The next day the media has pictures and headlines.."Crazy, nude, Right winger, crashes speed boat with 2 onboard-- Search crews halt activities because of darkness"....... They then interview your crying family members and friends. Performance websites by this time are now alive with posts from your buddies who describe you as a "great driver" who must have had an "equipment failure" because you were "too talented" to make a mistake at any speed. We have to read post after post on "limits on our sport" and blah, blah, blah. "After all it was only 3000 HP" and "Big Louie has twice that much".
Fired up by this and nursing his own agenda, Liberal Congressman Cecil Clueless arrives, immediately calls for speed limits, noise abatements, driver's licensing on the water, increased registration fees to fund added patrol and monitoring efforts and higher marine gas taxes to discourage "useless horsepower". Greenpeace then shows up and protests all of the insurance companies that cover Hi-performance boats.

The end result? Your poor choice of "personal liberty"...deprives the rest of us of ours.

T2x

How True

[cuda]

Wow you guys are tough!!!!! James is a good guy and sometimes we make mistakes. Yes, at 120 a 40 Skater IS a Cadillac....I have lost a drive over 140 and it came to a nice straight stop. Would that happen every time?? Maybe, maybe not.
All I'm saying is sometimes you are running fast and really forget for a second how quickly speeds can build in these things. I'm sure he does not make it a habit, but he was nice enough to show us some cool videos and all that ends up happening is 30 posts flaming him.:dupe:
98% of the time everyone in my boat wears LifeLines over 100, a couple times we might not. That does not make me or anybody else that does the same a "unsafe boater". And yes, I have broken almost 15+ bones, so I know bad things happen, all I'm saying is cut the guy some slack.
Wow! 15 bones, that's a real accomplishment. Which one of those bones was you skull? You're so tough, you gargle with Draino.

[cuda]

Has nothing to do with "being so tough". Has everything to do with my right to choose weather I wear a vest or not and everything to do with calculated risk.

In a nation that continues to crack down on laws and continues to restrict our hobbies, the last thing I (and the rest of us for that matter) need is for others in our hobby to stand up on their f*cking soap box and preach.

We all know the risks. To get on here and type all this B.S. does nothing but aid in the restriction process. So, if more restrictions is your goal….Kudos to you.

I'm not pushing for mandated restrictions, you can't outlaw stupidity. I've been laying in a hospital bed the last five days, listening to a man one room down from me who broke his neck, fight for every breath for five days. I don't know the circumstances behind his broken neck, but I doubt you'd be so cavalier about getting a broken neck if you saw and heard him. I guarangodamntee he wishes he'd never done whatever broke his neck. So does his family. I know you could get hit by a bus, but that doesn't mean you should NOT do something as simple as put on a lifejacket. I remember way back when I took driver's Ed, they showed a picture of a girl who said she didn't like to wear a seatbelt because it wrinkled her dress. Then they showed a picture of her in a full body cast. Wonder if she worried about her wrinkled dress while she was laying there in a body cast? In my considered opinion, not taking simple safety precautions is just plain stupid. It's the boaters who DON'T take these simple precautions that will have them legislated down our throats.

If your goal is to have restrictions rammed down our throats because you thoughtlessly went out and broke your fool neck, kudos to you.

[cuda]

Understood......and I am all for Liberty in most of our activities...especially speed on the water...the last frontier as you say....but here's the rub.

You go out and run 100+ without any safety equipment...or clothes of any kind for that matter..... You screw up....you die and so do your passengers..... all because you made a choice...and you paid the price. So far....so good....until...

The next day the media has pictures and headlines.."Crazy, nude, Right winger, crashes speed boat with 2 onboard-- Search crews halt activities because of darkness"....... They then interview your crying family members and friends. Performance websites by this time are now alive with posts from your buddies who describe you as a "great driver" who must have had an "equipment failure" because you were "too talented" to make a mistake at any speed. We have to read post after post on "limits on our sport" and blah, blah, blah. "After all it was only 3000 HP" and "Big Louie has twice that much".
Fired up by this and nursing his own agenda, Liberal Congressman Cecil Clueless arrives, immediately calls for speed limits, noise abatements, driver's licensing on the water, increased registration fees to fund added patrol and monitoring efforts and higher marine gas taxes to discourage "useless horsepower". Greenpeace then shows up and protests all of the insurance companies that cover Hi-performance boats.

The end result? Your poor choice of "personal liberty"...deprives the rest of us of ours.

T2x

I should have read your post first, you put it much more succinctly. :)

[ProMod]

I wont get on a performance boat without my Lifeline. I was knocked out hitting the water at less than 60mph some years ago laying face first I almost drowned with a cheap jacket partially on my body..

I must say that other than at Poker runs we are the only rig in our group that where jackets.This group includes several big Skaters ,Nortecks an MTI ,Outerlimits ,Cigs etc.all boats that on plane run 90+mph all day long..

When I run in friends boats I am the only person wearing a jacket and that's fine we are all adults it's not for me to say what's right for others!

On my boat when on plane we put on our lifelines it's my rule!.

[cuda]

I wont get on a performance boat without my Lifeline. I was knocked out hitting the water at less than 60mph some years ago laying face first I almost drowned with a cheap jacket partially on my body..

I must say that other than at Poker runs we are the only rig in our group that where jackets.This group includes several big Skaters ,Nortecks an MTI ,Outerlimits ,Cigs etc.all boats that on plane run 90+mph all day long..

When I run in friends boats I am the only person wearing a jacket and that's fine we are all adults it's not for me to say what's right for others!

On my boat when on plane we put on our lifelines it's my rule!.

I have the same rule. The club I used to run with didn't require lifejackets in the poker runs, but I told anyone who wanted to ride in my boat, they had two options: 1) Wear a lifejacket 2) Stay on the dock

These are my terms, and they are non-negotiable.

[Chris]

We went through this in pretty good depth when the Scarab tossed those guys into the Ohio river. They found the boat running in circles, but no boaters- at least not for a few days. There were some excellent posts made.

I personally don't give a damn about some group raising Cain about our boats. And frankly, that seems to happen on waterways that these boats were never really intended for anyway. If they want to ban 150 mph boats on these little ponds, OK by me. And I do value personal freedom and choice. But I also believe in personal responsibility and people making informed, educated choices.

Bottom line- the high-performance boating community doesn't have enough fatalities to generate even a statistical blip in a country full of 300 million people, many not so bright. We've got idiots killing themselves in a myriad of ways and in such significant volume that we are invisible. Few states even have seat belt use as a primary violation and most dropped helmet laws. So a few dead boaters won't stimulate Congressional hearings. And I believe the insurance industry has already figured out our little niche has a fairly significant group inside of it that boats drunk, jacket-less and lanyard-less and they've either departed the market or adjusted their rates accordingly. The damage that could be done was done some time ago.

So what are we left with? I think it's the people these folks leave behind needlessly. The point was made that all activities have varying degrees of risk. I'll buy that. But may risks can be negated. I care enough about my wife and kids to put on a vest and a lanyard. And I care enough about people I bring on board that I'm willing to set the example.

I have a close friend. His son was a bit of a wild kid. My friend even joked about it- that we did wild stuff when we were kids and so on. I think he was proud to be the father of an alpha male. I made a few pointed suggestions about the kid's behavior when I saw it but it fell on deaf ears. In the Spring of his senior year in high school, the kid hopped on a friends dirt bike and proceeded to wring it out on the street in front of his house. He came over a rise wide-open in 5th gear and hit an elderly lady as he was backing her car out of her driveway. They estimate he was going about 80. I couldn't attend the funeral for fear that I'd drag my friend into the parking lot and beat the stuffing out of him for allowing the behavior to go on in spite of all the warning signs. I tried- I sat in the funeral home parking lot for over an hour, watching his classmates stream in and out, many of them sobbing. and my friend? We've gone from good friends to mere acquaintances in the last 6 or 7 years. I can't see him without the anger rearing up. And the woman he hit- she blames herself.

So I guess you have to ask yourself- how many lives are you willing to shatter for a little bit of your own personal freedom?

[AugiePensa]

Hey Guy's, was sick yesterday. Rich, to answer your question on how fast Kevin and I were going was Approx. 82-83 mph when we stuffed. we were going South on the Hudson River during an SBI Race. I will say besides the two cracked bones in my neck I broke my wrist and took a chunk out of my forehead to the bone. Not a pretty site. Up until then I never wore kill switches, life jackets, ect. while pleasure boating. ... I now do, even to go for a little spin. Ya Never Know, But that's just me! Oh, and everyone that gets in my boat must wear life jackets, or get the Fu$k out!

[Sean Stinson]

I was boating in the Pacific one day that it looked like a mill pond....Had BCC, Rivergirl and RG's boyfriend at the time Semper Fi....38 Top Gun Big Zul power that all being said here we go....leave Dana Point warm up the oil look at surroundings the only thing in sight in any direction is a blow boat all is good no jackets on because it's a sunday cruise right....Ok lets see what this puupy has under the hood a bit at about 80 I look over my shoulder to make sure nothings looks goofy behind us with the rooster tails and tabs doing anything to the water coming off the back.....Out of no where on a dead flat ocean the boat hits a rogue wave kites the front a bit and trips then hooks to the left power it out while trying to catch passengers bouncing into my lap and not in a fun way come off plane to make sure everyone is alright....Everybody is like "Where did that come from?" Results RG hit the dash with chin and cut it open end of boating for that morning go get checked out and bandaged up and then head backout for more....What could have happened is boat could have tossed some if not all into water and kept going....the rest everybody can draw their own what if scenarios....Jackets and lanyards are a must....Hell ask a couple seasoned pros how their swim outside of haulover was as the boat ran circles around them bobbing their dumb asses in the water!!!!!

[Wobble]

I read somewhere that as many people drowned falling out of stationary boats as they do moving ones. Cant find the article at the moment.

[Chris]

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/Boating_Statistics_2007.pdf

[Wobble]

http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/Boating_Statistics_2007.pdf

Those stats don't seen to confirm or disprove what I read. It may have been a newsletter from parks and wildlife or some other.

EDIT

USCG table 13 as supplied by Chris. This doesnt specify whether jackets were worn or not

Not moving or under 10mph, 286 Deaths and 987 Injuries

Under way over 10mph, 128 deaths 2197 injuries

Not known 271 deaths 1109 injuries

There were 685 total deaths (all causes), out of those 122 were wearing jackets (table 24) and of those only 49 drowned.

[Chris]

If there's another study about boating and drowning out there, I'm not aware of it. The USCG is typically the first, last and only word on the topic. Federal law requres that drownings be reported to them. They maintain and publish the data.

It stands to reason though that alot of people drown for reasons other than a collision or moving mishap. Swimming, peeing off the transom or just losing balance and falling in are all in that basket of possibilities. Being alone most likely increases the chances of drowning substantially.

[Wobble]

according to the USCG stats if you end up in the water you are nearly 10 times more likely to drown 427 -49 (in 2007) if you are not wearing a life jacket.

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

Hell ask a couple seasoned pros how their swim outside of haulover was as the boat ran circles around them bobbing their dumb asses in the water!!!!![/QUOTE]

and they still dont wear them.. Unless I get onboard and zip it up for them....

[40FlatDeck]

Wow! 15 bones, that's a real accomplishment. Which one of those bones was you skull? You're so tough, you gargle with Draino.

I threw that out there because I have been injured and I know what broken bones feel like! I'm not very tough, but I do like to push limits, and I have been bitten a few times. So was the skull comment supposed to insinuate that I am not very bright????

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I can apply something I have heard.. One of two things is true if you choose to not protect yourself or others.

You are either stupid because you have heard the stories, know the dangers, and can't make a good choice.....

Or you are selfish because you disregard others and potentially put them in harms way.

Neither reason is very attractive.




I am not saying this to anyone in particular.

[Chris]

And I'll ad that I don't think any of this is aimed at any one person in specific. And if someone grabs a jacket that they otherwise wouldn't have, the discussion was worthwhile.

I've done lots of dumb, dangerous things without giving a second's pause to think about the possibilities. There have been things that took 20 years to register just how bad they were and how many people would have been affected quite deeply if a shred of luck would have gone the other way.

[BLAZE]

And I'll ad that I don't think any of this is aimed at any one person in specific. And if someone grabs a jacket that they otherwise wouldn't have, the discussion was worthwhile.

I've done lots of dumb, dangerous things without giving a second's pause to think about the possibilities. There have been things that took 20 years to register just how bad they were and how many people would have been affected quite deeply if a shred of luck would have gone the other way.

Very well put!:seeya:

[Tank]

I'm not pushing for mandated restrictions, you can't outlaw stupidity. I've been laying in a hospital bed the last five days, listening to a man one room down from me who broke his neck, fight for every breath for five days. I don't know the circumstances behind his broken neck, but I doubt you'd be so cavalier about getting a broken neck if you saw and heard him. I guarangodamntee he wishes he'd never done whatever broke his neck. So does his family. I know you could get hit by a bus, but that doesn't mean you should NOT do something as simple as put on a lifejacket. I remember way back when I took driver's Ed, they showed a picture of a girl who said she didn't like to wear a seatbelt because it wrinkled her dress. Then they showed a picture of her in a full body cast. Wonder if she worried about her wrinkled dress while she was laying there in a body cast? In my considered opinion, not taking simple safety precautions is just plain stupid. It's the boaters who DON'T take these simple precautions that will have them legislated down our throats.

If your goal is to have restrictions rammed down our throats because you thoughtlessly went out and broke your fool neck, kudos to you.


Cuda, I empathize with your situation and don’t envy your stay in the hospital, nor the reason for it.

However, don’t arrogantly assume that I am being cavalier and have not seen my share of injury and death at the hands of stupid mistakes. There is nothing cavalier about my stance on this topic. I just don’t agree life vests need to be worn at all times. And again, most importantly, I feel discussing how you and others feel vests should be worn at all times, only sets to hinder and restrict our hobby further. And again, I take personal calculated risk; weighing the totality of the circumstances. I don’t personally believe in “absolutes” and that belief carries over into this topic.

I (as well as 40flatdeck) only gave similar circumstances of doing things that were not 100% safe, to give examples of the many and varied types of things in this life that I (& others) experienced that were not always safe. And to live this life to the fullest, sometimes risks are taken. I however, don’t appreciate your snide comments (gargle with drano and floss with barbed wire) because some may disagree with your stance on the subject.

And here is a random thought….If you are really concerned for other people safety, why not campaign to never run at these high speeds. I’ve said it over and over, a life vest is not going to save your life in a collision, stuff or roll at 150 mph, it is only going to make it easy for the search and rescue to recover your body. Hence, going these speeds is yet again, another example of calculated risk. But I don’t see you on here shaking your fist at those that choose to go those speeds that will most likely cause the collision that will cause the major injury or death (with or with out life vest). The Pammy skater, Nashville Katz/Flash Gordon, Outerlimits at Smoke on the Water…All recent examples of deaths at high speed with life vests on.

You say, a collision with out a vest on will cause regulation and legislation, I say, doesn’t matter if your vest is on or not at these speeds. There will be lawsuits, there will be insurance hikes, there will be cancelations of events, etc. And those insurance, events and lawsuits will be on these boards pulling these types of threads to add fodder to their agenda.

So by all means, continue to discuss this topic that may at some time be used against all of us in some courtroom. But my opinion has not changed on tghis subject and I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind to wear vests…But I’m done trying to make you guys see my point that sdiscussing this on an open forum is the ultimate stupidity.

[Sean Stinson]

Hell ask a couple seasoned pros how their swim outside of haulover was as the boat ran circles around them bobbing their dumb asses in the water!!!!!

and they still dont wear them.. Unless I get onboard and zip it up for them....[/QUOTE]

So you know the story as well:sifone::sifone:

[catmando]

When I bought my boat, the seller said it would run 100+(he lied but that's another story). Anyway, the first thing I did at the ramp and the dock was put my vest on before I got underway. If there were passengers with me they had to do the same thing. I might just cruise around at 50-60 but then I might hit the gas and go at WOT. Everybody had to jacket up or they got left at the dock.

[T2x]

Ya Never Know, But that's just me! Oh, and everyone that gets in my boat must wear life jackets, or get the Fu$k out!

One more question Augie.......

What exactly is a Fu$K? It seems to have something to do with money. :D :D

[Airpacker]

One more question Augie.......

What exactly is a Fu$K? It seems to have something to do with money. :D :D

Rich, maybe thats a question better asked in the wives, girlfriends and dock HOOKERS thread :)

[Ratickle]

One more question Augie.......

What exactly is a Fu$K? It seems to have something to do with money. :D :D

Now that's funny......


Definitely been plenty of it spent on it over time......:sifone:

[T2x]

I say:

A) Doesn't matter how much you argue people should wear their vests, most wont. You're not going to change peoples minds on the topic.

B) (Due to the above) All the pounding on the keyboards in an attempt to make people see it your way, will only further assist those (insurance companies and law-makers who are getting money from them) that seek to restrict our hobby.

A) My Motto is "The Majority of people are almost always wrong", but if I save one of them from drowning, all this "keyboard pounding" is worth it.

B) It would be nice to believe that the media and political types are monitoring our website, but the fact is they don't until somebody(s) get('s) killed. They are too busy ignoring Nationwide Tea Parties to pay attention to us. Deaths on the water are exponentially more potent weapons for politicians to point at us than anything written in these hallowed E-halls. IMHO. In fact I have taken more grief from my Life Jacket from performance boaters than anyone else. At one fun run I was pointed to and laughed at ( "Hey it's him...and he's putting on a life jacket...har, har, har!") for putting on a Life Jacket in my 28 Skater before starting a 50 mile run in nasty snot. In fact the same boat full of mental midgets tried to cut me off shortly before the finish of the event. I'm sure they don't wear helmets on motorcycles either.

Final point....I don't mind helmet, life jacket and lanyard laws, I lived by them for years in racing. I do mind putting speed limits on wide open lakes and coastal estuaries because of "accidents" and "safety issues". We are stuck with noise laws because many people think that loud car motors in boats are somehow "sexy"..... They abuse this by revving them for no reason at marinas, fuel docks and watering holes..... instead of using dash controlled, noise abatement equipment around large groups of civilians. Of course this was another example of acting out their "Civil Rights"..... in a dumb, useless manner (other than those guys who confuse displays of horsepower with pecker length and "need" this to arouse themselves for purely therepeutic reasons.......probably a California loophole somewhere :D).

Bottom line....... If you want to die on the water...... do it in Venezuela, or Dubai.....or someplace else where mindless death doesn't make our headlines.

T2x

[T2x]

By the way...I'm a pretty good driver...all in all... and I have screwed up any number of times.

For instance here's one of my better performances...and the result of another. The judges gave me a perfect 10 on the somersault, but 1's and 2's on the landing.... :p

[T2x]

One of the best drivers in the world has to be my long time friend John Sherlock, long time test driver for Mercury Marine at Lake X and later at X Site..... He is also a multi time National Champion driver and was crew chief for the Serralles offshore...and...Champ boat teams. I would ride with him anywhere..... anytime. He will tell you that this happened so fast....he never had time to react.


The point here is....... Neither John nor I are "good enough" to drive a 100+ mph cat or vee above 100 mph without a Life Jacket and lanyard.........

Neither are you.

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

One more question Augie.......

What exactly is a Fu$K? It seems to have something to do with money. :D :D

Anytime I used the fu$k it usually involved strippers and a VIP room and therefore money came into play heavily!!!!!

[cuda]

I read somewhere that as many people drowned falling out of stationary boats as they do moving ones. Cant find the article at the moment.
I don't understand your point. Does that mean if the boat is moving VERY fast, are you LESS likely to fall out of it??????????

[cuda]

If there's another study about boating and drowning out there, I'm not aware of it. The USCG is typically the first, last and only word on the topic. Federal law requres that drownings be reported to them. They maintain and publish the data.

It stands to reason though that alot of people drown for reasons other than a collision or moving mishap. Swimming, peeing off the transom or just losing balance and falling in are all in that basket of possibilities. Being alone most likely increases the chances of drowning substantially.


By the same token, I believe the odds of someone drowning in any of the above scenarios increases the odds of drowning exponetialy, it they aren't wearing lifejackets.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[cuda]

I threw that out there because I have been injured and I know what broken bones feel like! I'm not very tough, but I do like to push limits, and I have been bitten a few times. So was the skull comment supposed to insinuate that I am not very bright????

Yes it was. Now, do you think I'm more or less likely to go boating and "push the limits" after you tell me how broken bones feel. I've broken several bones myself, but never because I wanted to "push the limits", but I assume a broken bone feels like a broken bone...............you're just a WHOLE LOT LESS likely to drown because of those broken bones, so have at it. People will weep at your funeral, but that doesn't matter to you, because you'll be DEAD!
Edit: After rereading your post, you've been thrown out, and yet you still don't wear a lifejacket, so maybe you're right not trying to prove you're tough, but you may want mix in a brainscan, because your elevator isn't reaching the top floor.

[cuda]

Cuda, I empathize with your situation and don’t envy your stay in the hospital, nor the reason for it.

However, don’t arrogantly assume that I am being cavalier and have not seen my share of injury and death at the hands of stupid mistakes. There is nothing cavalier about my stance on this topic. I just don’t agree life vests need to be worn at all times. And again, most importantly, I feel discussing how you and others feel vests should be worn at all times, only sets to hinder and restrict our hobby further. And again, I take personal calculated risk; weighing the totality of the circumstances. I don’t personally believe in “absolutes” and that belief carries over into this topic.

I (as well as 40flatdeck) only gave similar circumstances of doing things that were not 100% safe, to give examples of the many and varied types of things in this life that I (& others) experienced that were not always safe. And to live this life to the fullest, sometimes risks are taken. I however, don’t appreciate your snide comments (gargle with drano and floss with barbed wire) because some may disagree with your stance on the subject.

And here is a random thought….If you are really concerned for other people safety, why not campaign to never run at these high speeds. I’ve said it over and over, a life vest is not going to save your life in a collision, stuff or roll at 150 mph, it is only going to make it easy for the search and rescue to recover your body. Hence, going these speeds is yet again, another example of calculated risk. But I don’t see you on here shaking your fist at those that choose to go those speeds that will most likely cause the collision that will cause the major injury or death (with or with out life vest). The Pammy skater, Nashville Katz/Flash Gordon, Outerlimits at Smoke on the Water…All recent examples of deaths at high speed with life vests on.

You say, a collision with out a vest on will cause regulation and legislation, I say, doesn’t matter if your vest is on or not at these speeds. There will be lawsuits, there will be insurance hikes, there will be cancelations of events, etc. And those insurance, events and lawsuits will be on these boards pulling these types of threads to add fodder to their agenda.

So by all means, continue to discuss this topic that may at some time be used against all of us in some courtroom. But my opinion has not changed on tghis subject and I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind to wear vests…But I’m done trying to make you guys see my point that sdiscussing this on an open forum is the ultimate stupidity.

No offense taken or implied, but excuse me if I call BS!

[Tank]

A) My Motto is "The Majority of people are almost always wrong"....

Doesn't change the fact the majority of boaters (all boaters) don't wear life vests.


B) It would be nice to believe that the media and political types are monitoring our website, but the fact is they don't until somebody(s) get('s) killed. They are too busy ignoring Nationwide Tea Parties to pay attention to us. Deaths on the water are exponentially more potent weapons for politicians to point at us than anything written in these hallowed E-halls. IMHO.

Couldn't disagree with you more (except for the part that it takes something news worthy for people to surf forums like this for information). There were quotes from OSO in the media just recently about a well-known Engine builder who was arrested for child molest. The media was sifting through the various threads of all his friends that came to his defense.

And if you honestly think lawyers and insurance investigators (those that have the ear of the lawmakers for monetary reasons) don't read through these forums, you are sorely mistaken. If you don't take my word for it, just contact Steve Schuble and ask him how many times he's had subpoenas served for forum information.


Final point....I don't mind helmet, life jacket and lanyard laws, I lived by them for years in racing. I do mind putting speed limits on wide open lakes and coastal estuaries because of "accidents" and "safety issues".

Well, here we vary greatly in opinion. I do mind helmet, life jacket and lanyard laws. I don't race, nor have the time or patience to do such. If I did race, I'd wear a life jacket and helmet do to the need to push driver and equipment to the breaking point at times. This is another example of common sense, measuring the totality of the circumstances and calculating the risk.


The point here is....... Neither John nor I are "good enough" to drive a 100+ mph cat or vee above 100 mph without a Life Jacket and lanyard.........

Neither are you.


Never said I was.


Frankly, I disagree whole-heartedly that boating collisions at high speeds will actually affect legislation when it comes to mandated life vest laws. (I think it will more likely mandate speed limit laws). The number of high performance boating collisions that have deaths or major injuries (with or with out vests) is just to low to support any politicians agenda against performance boats. The one or two a year fatal boating collisions involving high performance boats, pales in comparison to the thousands of boating related deaths a year involving various other types of boats.

Matter of fact, I can't actually think of a recent high speed fatal boating crash where life vests WEREN'T worn! Please elnlighten me on a recent (past 5 years) collision that involved a fatality at high speeds where the victim was not wearing a vest.

It is easy to say that high-speed boating collisions grab headlines due to the fact that we are a tight nit community and every boating related wreck, whether fatal or not is reported on these boards. But the majority of all boating wrecks are reported in one way or another by the media and grab media attention, whether it's a 19' Boston whaler 50 miles offshore with NFL player on board or it's a 40 Skater that rolls during a poker run; sensationalism sells news.

So in the end, I strongly disagree that James, I or the countless other high performance boating enthusiasts that opt to use discression when wearing their life vests will affect any legislation having to do with restricting high performance boating.

But I do still believe that voicing demands on an open forum for all to wear life vests when operating a boat will do nothing but add fuel to the fire when the fire comes.

I don't attempt to take away or disregard your knowledge or experiences; I know they are both long and distinguished. I understand your point of view, I just don't agree with it 100%. So I'm content to say I can respectfully agree to disagree with you, and I’ll leave it at that.

[Tank]

No offense taken or implied, but excuse me if I call BS!

Call BS in regards to which part? Call BS? Or disagree? Those are two completely different things.

[T2x]

So I'm content to say I can respectfully agree to disagree with you, and I’ll leave it at that.

Fair enough............

Let's start this debate again after the next fatality.

[Tank]

Fair enough............

Let's start this debate again after the next fatality.

The next fatality that I gaurantee will have a life vest on.:sifone::sifone:

[MarylandMark]

Matter of fact, I can't actually think of a recent high speed fatal boating crash where life vests WEREN'T worn! Please elnlighten me on a recent (past 5 years) collision that involved a fatality at high speeds where the victim was not wearing a vest.

I really, really, really wish I didn't have these to post..

Pat Reiter (http://reiterracing553.com/)

Martin Spradlin (http://www.somdnews.com/stories/011207/indytop190239_32081.shtml)

[MarylandMark]

I need to wear mine more; if not for me than for my friends and family. Pretty sobering sight seeing friends and family camped out at the dock until a body is recovered.

[Chris]

Matter of fact, I can't actually think of a recent high speed fatal boating crash where life vests WEREN'T worn! Please elnlighten me on a recent (past 5 years) collision that involved a fatality at high speeds where the victim was not wearing a vest.

.

The one I referenced in my prior post. Where the Scarab on the Ohio river was found running in circles (no lanyard either) and two known, experienced boater's bodies were nowhere to be found. They were recovered a few days later- no vests. And this was a fairly simple, very survivable hook that tossed the guys out. If it was a 130 mph stuff/flip/hook/whatever that destroyed the boat, I'd say we could debate outcomes on this one. But this one didn't even harm the boat. it was putting in circles when rescuers arrived.

[cuda]

Call BS in regards to which part? Call BS? Or disagree? Those are two completely different things.

BS on all of it.

There are none so blind as though that WILL not see.

[cuda]

The next fatality that I gaurantee will have a life vest on.:sifone::sifone:

By the same token, I can guarantee the cause of death won't be death by downing, IF wearing a life jacket.

Go ahead and call BS on that.

When you get a Lipship Gun, they must come equiped with a needle that automatically injects you with testoterone. You didn't become Evel Bollweevil until after you got the gun.

I wish Philly would chime in. I saw him and his brother in 20 foot Cigs on a LAKE, and they both had lifejackets on.

[boostbros]

alls fun and cool till the cute girl in back gets tossed out while standing up to re do her hair by the time you turn around and go back you can,t find her its a sickning helpless scene! small thin women or men sink like a rock! you play hard enough or long enough you will be involved or come up on a boat accident on the water. i will warn you one sound you never want to hear in life is a father identifing his 16 year old son on the boat ramp it is a scream that will always haunt you. i wear a good new style soft vest any time i,m underway on the water even on our 70 foot tugboat that only goes 10 mph. the very least you could wear is the inflatable vest it adds class to any boat to take safty precautions and if you are hell bent on not then please don,t video your stunts and post them it makes us all look bad

[BobbyB]

I was in an accident and wasnt wearing my vest and nobody was. Myself and 2 other guys were lucky and one wasnt. So that was my lesson and i will wear my vest from now on.

[cuda]

alls fun and cool till the cute girl in back gets tossed out while standing up to re do her hair by the time you turn around and go back you can,t find her its a sickning helpless scene! small thin women or men sink like a rock! you play hard enough or long enough you will be involved or come up on a boat accident on the water. i will warn you one sound you never want to hear in life is a father identifing his 16 year old son on the boat ramp it is a scream that will always haunt you. i wear a good new style soft vest any time i,m underway on the water even on our 70 foot tugboat that only goes 10 mph. the very least you could wear is the inflatable vest it adds class to any boat to take safty precautions and if you are hell bent on not then please don,t video your stunts and post them it makes us all look bad

It's like they say about pistols: I hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 44.

[Tank]

I really, really, really wish I didn't have these to post..

Pat Reiter (http://reiterracing553.com/)

Martin Spradlin (http://www.somdnews.com/stories/011207/indytop190239_32081.shtml)

very well, that's why I asked. I don't doubt people have been killed not wearing vests, its just all the highly publicized wrecks, those killed have had vests on.

Maybe some of you don't get my point. I agree, vests are great. Just don't try to take away my freedom to choose. And if you're going to bring up the "your choice will cost us ours later" thing, refer to my second to last post. The statistics just aren't there.

[Duke69]

I've only put mine on a few times in the last 30 or so years I've been boating. The conditions not speed dictate it for me.

So basically, never.

[MarylandMark]

I agree, vests are great. Just don't try to take away my freedom to choose.

I agree 100%- and Gov't mandates are not the answer. Along the same lines I feel anyone (or their estate) not wearing a vest should reimburse the Gov't for the search and rescue/recover operation.

I don't wear mine much- seems only like when I am solo or it is really rough- which is no excuse and just being honest. I do wear my lanyard 98% of the time- it's my right to off myself; not my right to off anyone else.

[Ratickle]

I agree 100%- and Gov't mandates are not the answer. Along the same lines I feel anyone (or their estate) not wearing a vest should reimburse the Gov't for the search and rescue/recover operation.

I don't wear mine much- seems only like when I am solo or it is really rough- which is no excuse and just being honest. I do wear my lanyard 98% of the time- it's my right to off myself; not my right to off anyone else.

I'm the same way, don't wear it much. Hopefully will start wearing it more. There has been many times conditions and speed said I should have had it on. Well, we'll see if I am gaining wisdom.

[T2x]

The next fatality that I gaurantee will have a life vest on.:sifone::sifone:


Tank:

Life vests by themselves are only part of a much bigger picture.

1. Life vests are a necessity to keep you floating upright while unconscious or disabled....or for extended periods of time in rough or cold water even if you are an excellent swimmer.

2. Helmets are necessary to reduce (not eliminate) head injuries

3. HANS devices further reduce head injuries and reduce neck injuries simultaneously, but must be used with 5 point harnesses.

4. Safety Cockpit standards reduce ballistic impact injuries in the occupants immediate area, while providing construction that sustains strength through moments of impact and submersion.

5. Oxygen systems sustain life in disorienting upside down situations when water is introduced to the situation.

6. Emergency lighting allows you to see under the same circumstances as #5 above.

7. 5 point harnesses (properly installed) keep the occupant from ballistic impact with hard structures during any mishap at speeds over 60.

8. (Properly designed)Enclosed capsules prevent water intrusion during high speed flips and rollovers, while in some cases deflecting other hulls, lower units, etc from penetration during collisions (see #4 above). The strength and integrity of this technology is rendered immediately worthless as soon as you open ...or remove.... the hatches, reduce the window framing strength, allow water openings around the window perimeters, or remove any structural supports.

9. Hull "crush zones" (typically forward and on the deck) allow for needed deceleration during impacts at high speed.

10. Extensive driver training...... for anybody who routinely plays in the mid 100's speed environment.......... is an absolute requirement....to make you a "student" (not a "Master", for no one will ever attain that throne) of the genre. Continual training and exposure to information (preferably photographic/video evidence) on the dynamics that occur in high speed accidents is the only way to develop the respect needed to put life jackets on the "super heros in their own minds" that abound in our sport.


All of the above in concert with each other are needed. Yes, some rich dentist or stock broker, can go out and buy an open cockpit 170 mph pleasure boat.... but the margin for error....is zero.

Failure to acknowledge the above data...has killed far too many people...and, sadly, will again.


T2x

[Tank]

Tank:

Life vests by themselves are only part of a much bigger picture.

1. Life vests are a necessity to keep you floating upright while unconscious or disabled....or for extended periods of time in rough or cold water even if you are an excellent swimmer.

2. Helmets are necessary to reduce (not eliminate) head injuries

3. HANS devices further reduce head injuries and reduce neck injuries simultaneously, but must be used with 5 point harnesses.

4. Safety Cockpit standards reduce ballistic impact injuries in the occupants immediate area, while providing construction that sustains strength through moments of impact and submersion.

5. Oxygen systems sustain life in disorienting upside down situations when water is introduced to the situation.

6. Emergency lighting allows you to see under the same circumstances as #5 above.

7. 5 point harnesses (properly installed) keep the occupant from ballistic impact with hard structures during any mishap at speeds over 60.

8. (Properly designed)Enclosed capsules prevent water intrusion during high speed flips and rollovers, while in some cases deflecting other hulls, lower units, etc from penetration during collisions (see #4 above). The strength and integrity of this technology is rendered immediately worthless as soon as you open ...or remove.... the hatches, reduce the window framing strength, allow water openings around the window perimeters, or remove any structural supports.

9. Hull "crush zones" (typically forward and on the deck) allow for needed deceleration during impacts at high speed.

10. Extensive driver training...... for anybody who routinely plays in the mid 100's speed environment.......... is an absolute requirement....to make you a "student" (not a "Master", for no one will ever attain that throne) of the genre. Continual training and exposure to information (preferably photographic/video evidence) on the dynamics that occur in high speed accidents is the only way to develop the respect needed to put life jackets on the "super heros in their own minds" that abound in our sport.


All of the above in concert with each other are needed. Yes, some rich dentist or stock broker, can go out and buy an open cockpit 170 mph pleasure boat.... but the margin for error....is zero.

Failure to acknowledge the above data...has killed far too many people...and, sadly, will again.


T2x

Agreed 100%

Oh, and by the way...You'll be happy to know I wore my kill switches yesterday while running the boat. Still no vest though, but hey, you gotta start somewhere right? I was thinking of you and Cuda screaming in my ear to be safe! So mission accomplished:sifone:

[GRADS]

Here's another great one. Open cockpit boat, almost 160 m.p.h. and no lifevests....but I guess it's okay because it's probably one of those cadillac boats. http://users.accesscomm.ca/tombrown/Aneurysm.wmv

[Tank]

Here's another great one. Open cockpit boat, almost 160 m.p.h. and no lifevests....but I guess it's okay because it's probably one of those cadillac boats. http://users.accesscomm.ca/tombrown/Aneurysm.wmv

Gawd dam! That was a sweet video!!:biggrinjester::26:

[cuda]

Agreed 100%

Oh, and by the way...You'll be happy to know I wore my kill switches yesterday while running the boat. Still no vest though, but hey, you gotta start somewhere right? I was thinking of you and Cuda screaming in my ear to be safe! So mission accomplished:sifone:


We are partway there.:)

[cuda]

They plucked ten people out of the Atlantic last weekend that I know of. Six off Jax, and four off Canaveral. I'm sure it would have been ever more well publicized if they had drown. As a side note, speed wasn't the cause.

The dead know only one thing: It's better to be alive.