Biloxi Musings

[T2x]

In reviewing the posted results from this past weekend's race at Biloxi:

1 There were 26 boats in attendance
2. There were 10 classes
3. Only 4 classes (actual racing not bracket) had more than 3 boats
4. Only 2 classes had more than 5 boats
5. 2 classes had one boat racing (both boats wasting Miccosukee's sponsorship dollars)

IMHO

Merge 750 and 850 Super cat...There were 5 boats between them with essentially identical budgets.

Merge those two with Super Cat Light (similar budget again) and use a weight/HP "levelizer" formula.

Now we're up to 11 boats

Eliminate Turbine class and make those guys race in the above combined class (saving those two and future teams a boatload of money and avoiding the inevitable 170+ mph fatal accident that will happen sooner or later)

Now we're up to 13 boats.

Market that class and the Single engined canopied vee 5 boats(OSSVL) ...exclusively as your 2 major classes. That will force the other teams with similar budgets (OSS outboard and SV) into one or the other classes respectively.

Now you have 18-22 boats in 2 classes of real racing

Split $60,000 prize money between the two classes on a 66-33% split

Let the "P" guys play as they please, but off camera and for trophies only, with the clear understanding that when they want to get serious they have the top 2 classes to choose from.

Just my .02

T2x

P.S. This is the same formula (2 major classes including one "premier class" plus "development leagues") I suggested to APBA/Offshore leadership in 1986 and 1996
__________________

[Knot 4 Me]

I've attended 2 OSS races and the Cat Lite class was by far my favorite.

[C_Spray]

Kind of like the European Powerboat series Sportsman and Evolution class concept? You know - the one with international TV coverage and sponsorships....

[T2x]

Kind of like the European Powerboat series Sportsman and Evolution class concept? You know - the one with international TV coverage and sponsorships....

Yeah but what do they know? They keep it simple and it works.

Over here the U.S. teams race "United" which apparently means "Separately together" or some such. :p

As a seasoned veteran of the TV editing room, I can assure you that the more difficult the program is to explain to the viewer, the worse it will do in ratings.

T2x

[Gladhe8er]

I am all for combining classes. Very good point on the 750/850 class.

[smokeybandit]

How long was the course? I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find it.

[Ryan Beckley]

It was just under 9 miles.....

[T2x]

It was just under 9 miles.....

How did my props work for you?

[Ryan Beckley]

I did not run your props, there was not enough time to test properly with the gale force winds on Saturday......

[T2x]

I did not run your props, there was not enough time to test properly with the gale force winds on Saturday......


Let me know how they work when you get a chance.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Rich,

I love your candor and respect your opinion, but it is possible to get a positive spin from you?

If you look at the results in list form it there are some strong classes.

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5455


Yes, it is not what it once was, but it is pretty good.

I hope you can take the time to visit one of our events in person this season.

[boatme]

Good Post Rich

Interesting insite

[T2x]

Rich,

I love your candor and respect your opinion, but it is possible to get a positive spin from you?

I hope you can take the time to visit one of our events in person this season.

I attended a couple of races last year and went to Michigan for about 4 years until we switched to the Champ boat races in Bay City. I also attended Key West each year up until about 4 years ago. We work out of Joey Imprescia's shop each week (He is currently setting up an 850 Super Cat)......and I have a lot of dialogue with current racers and boat builders.

I also was among the first to see the results of the accident last year at Patchogue.

This idea that I am somehow "out of touch" is an inside joke ("Obsolete") that I started after leaving the APBA Offshore TV broadcast booth following a less than pleasant season in 2001 in which The APBA Chairman and I proved that we were both stubborn people.....plus I wound up locked in a voice over booth every few weeks with Reggie for a season of editing....:leaving:

Believe me I watch the sport as closely as anyone......and I follow the numbers and trends. The biggest barometer of success in motorsports is television ratings and meaningful cash flow from series sponsorships. When Offshore racing makes any real progress in either of those arenas I will be the first to trumpet it from the rafters. In the past 8 years all of the Key Performance Indicators (KPI's) have gone down in terms of the sport. We went from 3 separate organizations (APBA, SBI, USOffshore) to 4 (OSS, APBA/SBI, OPA, and OPS..not to mention the Geico "series within a series") even after it was generally agreed that 3 was 2 too many. I watch what people "do".....not listen to what they "Say"...and racers are more fragmented and class obsessed than ever before in spite of your cute "slogans".

As far as a "positive spin" from me is concerned, I offer the following. There are more than enough people praising you guys to the moon and for various reasons ( The video and photo guys want your money, the promoters have to do it-that's their job and I respect that, the boat builders and vendors want you to present their product as a "World Beater", the racers want desperately to believe that they are heroic, and the "fans" want their racing relatives and friends to do well). What racing doesn't need are more vacuous, self congratulatory sycophants. What it does need is a cold water self assessment and a dose of reality, and that is what I try to bring.

I will acknowledge that I lack a certain charm school approach, but most of the diplomatic types are already flattering you guys until your heads might burst. I've known most of today's leadership for years and many of them are friends that I respect.....but strongly disagree with. You don't have to take my advice, nor do you have to listen, but I submit that your current plans are circular and self serving in nature while making no progress toward advancing the sport to the next level....or to the levels it has enjoyed in the past.

I do wish you good luck, but "From My Perch" all I see is bunch of rose colored glasses. When they come off, I'll be the guy waving encouragement from the bleachers.

T2x

[Ryan Beckley]

Rich , will you let Throttle Up know that it is OK for me to try your props next time I get a chance.

[OneBadInjun]

QUOTE=T2x;168387]I attended a couple of races last year and went to Michigan for about 4 years until we switched to the Champ boat races in Bay City. I also attended Key West each year up until about 4 years ago. We work out of Joey Imprescia's shop each week (He is currently setting up an 850 Super Cat)......and I have a lot of dialogue with current racers and boat builders.

I also was among the first to see the results of the accident last year at Patchogue.

This idea that I am somehow "out of touch" is an inside joke ("Obsolete") that I started after leaving the APBA Offshore TV broadcast booth following a less than pleasant season in 2001 in which The APBA Chairman and I proved that we were both stubborn people.....plus I wound up locked in a voice over booth every few weeks with Reggie for a season of editing....:leaving:

Believe me I watch the sport as closely as anyone......and I follow the numbers and trends. The biggest barometer of success in motorsports is television ratings and meaningful cash flow from series sponsorships. When Offshore racing makes any real progress in either of those arenas I will be the first to trumpet it from the rafters. In the past 8 years all of the Key Performance Indicators (KPI's) have gone down in terms of the sport. We went from 3 separate organizations (APBA, SBI, USOffshore) to 4 (OSS, APBA/SBI, OPA, and OPS..not to mention the Geico "series within a series") even after it was generally agreed that 3 was 2 too many. I watch what people "do".....not listen to what they "Say"...and racers are more fragmented and class obsessed than ever before in spite of your cute "slogans".

As far as a "positive spin" from me is concerned, I offer the following. There are more than enough people praising you guys to the rafters and for various reasons ( The video and photo guys want your money, the promoters have to do it-that's their job and I respect that, the boat builders and vendors want you to present their product as a "World Beater", the racers want desperately to believe that they are heroic, and the "fans" want their racing relatives and friends to do well). What racing doesn't need are more vacuous, self congratulatory sycophants. What it does need is a cold water self assessment and a dose of reality, and that is what I try to bring.

I will acknowledge that I lack a certain charm school approach, but most of the diplomatic types are already flattering you guys until your heads might burst. I've known most of today's leadership for years and many of them are friends that I respect.....but strongly disagree with. You don't have to take my advice, nor do you have to listen, but I submit that your current plans are circular and self serving in nature while making no progress toward advancing the sport to the next level....or to the levels it has enjoyed in the past.

I do wish you good luck, but "From My Perch" all I see is bunch of rose colored glasses. When they come off, I'll be the guy waving encouragement from the bleachers.

T2x[/QUOTE]:kiss::rolleyes::nopity::huh::beatdeadhorse5::willy_nilly::confused:

[T2x]

Rich , will you let Throttle Up know that it is OK for me to try your props next time I get a chance.

Yes...Do they have the props back already?

[Ryan Beckley]

Throttle Up has them, YES.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Thanks Rich,

I agree with your class approach and have no argument for our observations.

I just think it is unrealistic to think the big guys will compromise and slow their boats. I also think it is foolish to mess with Cat light. That Class is great. They go fast enough, are very dependable and there are many competitive boats that currently exist. Changing the rules just depreciates all existing boats. I don't hear of dozens of new boats being built.

I do think it is possible to some how combined the 850 and 750 classes. I don't know the answer as to how. The guys that own them should collectively make the call. History says a few will end up upset and not conform. It does seem to me they are close now. After all the 750's make much more power than their name.

I believe the constant redirecting of class rules is a big part of the problem. Rule changes play a part in the separating of groups. Consistency is a good thing in rules.

I suggest every fan, participant and equipment owner to support your favorite group. Complaining about what it could be, has been or should be doesn't help IMO.

Lead change by example not talk.

[Ratickle]

I believe the constant redirecting of class rules is a big part of the problem. Rule changes play a part in the separating of groups. Consistency is a good thing in rules.

100% agree, It's the only reason we don't have a race boat currently......

[Sean Stinson]

Yeah but what do they know? They keep it simple and it works.

Over here the U.S. teams race "United" which apparently means "Separately together" or some such. :p

As a seasoned veteran of the TV editing room, I can assure you that the more difficult the program is to explain to the viewer, the worse it will do in ratings.

T2x


I am working on it....I am working on it!!!! Patience grasshopper for seed money feeds seed money!!!!

[C_Spray]

..Lead change by example not talk.

Although I'm "only" a spectator (and therefore an income-producing entity for the race sites, promoters, and racers), my example has been to stop attending. I haven't been to Key West since 2001. That's my message.

All anyone needs to do is look at the CART/Indy numbers of 1994 versus the IRL/Indy number of today. The lesson is there. I don't care which sanctioning body emerges from a unification, as long as there IS a unification.

I admire ALL racers for getting out there and putting their a$$es and money on the line. I just wish that it meant more than it does right now.

[Brownie]

EXTREMELY well said, Chuck!

[T2x]

Thanks Rich,

I just think it is unrealistic to think the big guys will compromise and slow their boats. I also think it is foolish to mess with Cat light.

.

Indeed, Cat light makes the most sense of all the classes in that rebuilds are virtually nil if you take sensible care of the spec powerplants, the boats are fast enough for great racing and there is a lot of talent in the class. As far as the "big guys", stop giving them an opportunity to create bigger and different classes. If there were no turbines at Biloxi you would have lost two boats. If there were no cat lights you would have lost six. Why have all these classes voting on their own rules in the first place? Take all the twin inboard cat guys and lock them into a room until they create a class that works for all of them. Treat each additional class like a disease not a "cure", and make the goal to be a truly interesting and competitive product, not an opportunity to buy a trophy. This can only occur, of course, if you have series sponsor money to dictate the rules, and you won't get that until you have an interesting and competitive product, so the circle continues.

The path out of this maze is simple, but not easy.

1. Get a cash sponsor for a 2 class annual series
2. Get a quality TV package on a real network
3. Leverage #'s 1 and 2 for individual racer sponsorships

Everything else is ego building and not germaine to the sport's success.

T2x

[T2x]

EXTREMELY well said, Chuck!

Yeah, what he said.........

[Ratickle]

Heck, I've only asked for the four sanctioning bodies to come up with two or three classes where a boat is legal to run in all of them. Like SVL, Cat Light, and maybe a big $ boy class. Seems simple to me. Then we could race all races in a reasonably close range and develope a following without traveling all over, which for us would be very difficult.

[Brownie]

Hell, if they would just stop racing on the same day, it would be a start.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Well it seems we agree. I just like a positive spin on the present. There are many boats of different configurations and people willing to run them. Until the sport pays these guys need a place to go. There are different approaches out there and a place for everyone willing.

I have been waiting for over ten years for a cash sponsor. A real one would be a game changer for sure. If you could make money racing it because realistic to build for a class.

Unfortunately it is still a chicken and the egg story.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Heck, I've only asked for the four sanctioning bodies to come up with two or three classes where a boat is legal to run in all of them. Like SVL, Cat Light, and maybe a big $ boy class. Seems simple to me. Then we could race all races in a reasonably close range and develope a following without traveling all over, which for us would be very difficult.

Paul, Running a few races of each group doesn't help as much as running all of one.

[T2x]

Unfortunately it is still a chicken and the egg story.

Yes except that the calls for class simplification and reunification pre date most of the equipment in use today.

It's not a case of finding someplace for all of the race boats to race....all that does(did) is encourage people to deviate and make even more classes. It's a case of sitting down and explaining that the current path will lead no where and without some compromise and ability to simplify, the whole thing is a monumental waste of time and a traveling circus.

I agree with Chuck's respect for a guy putting his *ss and boat on the line, but if he is not willing to race against a truly competitive group...he may be fast, he may be excited.....but he isn't a racer, and he isn't helping to build the sport.....no matter how much money he has, or how loudly he postures in meetings.

T2x

[T2x]

Hell, if they would just stop racing on the same day, it would be a start.

"United We Race....Separately"

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Again I agree, but you can't go back.

It appears to me the trend is moving back to less classes. Entry classes aside.
My personal choice would be 3 classes as premiere. Let attrition take its path. Don't mess with the stronger boat count classes and like you say encourage new racers to build into existing classes.



Maybe I can spin the current economics into a good thing. No manufacture is in a position to dictate. Now would be a good time for outside money to get involved.

[Top Banana]

"United We Race....Separately"


What is it with old guys always stirring the pot?

I agree with your plan 100%.

Just let's get it done and let's get the racing back off the beach so the ocean plays a part again.

[T2x]

Again I agree, but you can't go back.


Why not......? Is that some kind of rule? The sport started humbly in the late 50's, rose to meteoric heights in the 70's and 80's (with 1 premier and 3 other classes), and slipped inexorably downward since the first split when OPT(SBI today) broke away from APBA. If SBI could walk away from bankruptcy twice and stubbornly hang on, what rules really apply?

Simply terminate all of the alphabet groups and belly up to the bar........

Why not get all of the racers, from all of the groups together and make them put their money where their "United We Race" slogan is? Want more reason to go back? There were more boats in any one class back in the day, then you had in 10 classes last weekend.

T2x

[T2x]

What is it with old guys always stirring the pot?


I don't think it's really an age thing.... It's more like we were able to experience something that today's racers never saw and don't believe existed.

It wasn't about the race courses or era, it was about the logic that existed and the simple fundamental way that racing was conducted. As soon as multiple alternatives were introduced, it became politicized,"flexible", and contrived, and, frankly, a lot of racers went elsewhere as a result. I see competitive spirit blossoming in everything from Golf to Pro Football...Why is boat racing abounding with guys who do not want to race heads up? In fact there is more competition between the boat racing organizations, than on the race course.

T2x

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I love your optimism Rich. My "in the day" is not does not go as far back as yours , but I remember them from '85 on and participated in F2 in its best days. I have participated in some Big worlds and some not so big. I have witnessed the rise and fall of superV. I have seen the blower motors removed and return.

I have always participated in some way. I am not a spectator or an equipment owner. I crew or drive and most often both.

I find it hard to believe anyone has wanted this more than I. I still have hope. The best thing I can do is support my favorite group.

[TCEd]

Please don't get offended, I love offshore boats, their heritage and the occasional race. I been a fan since the early-80's. I think the sport as presented is club racing similar to SCCA club events or even the Reno air races. Big investments and little to no return financial return.
ed

[T2x]

I find it hard to believe anyone has wanted this more than I. I still have hope. The best thing I can do is support my favorite group.

If you really want it that badly, maybe standing up to your favorite group is a better tactic. Hold them accountable for unification...and nothing else until that's accomplished.

In reality we want the same thing...I'm just a little less patient about it than you are. After all some of us have less time to waste waiting for the promise to be fulfilled. ;)

T2x

[T2x]

I think the sport as presented is club racing similar to SCCA club events or even the Reno air races. Big investments and little to no return financial return.
ed

If that's what you accept...then that's what you'll get.

[smokeybandit]

What is it with old guys always stirring the pot?

I agree with your plan 100%.

Just let's get it done and let's get the racing back off the beach so the ocean plays a part again.

Amen to that.

[Top Banana]

I don't think it's really an age thing.... It's more like we were able to experience something that today's racers never saw and don't believe existed. T2x


Okay then let's give it to them.

HORBA had planned on staging a race from Miami to Key West next February on the weekend after the Miami Boat show. It is the second oldest course in US offshore history, after the Catalina race. It is 185 miles non-stop.

HORBA will gladly give up the sponsorship to any other sanctioning body or any group that say they want to race together and will help in any way we can to put the race on.

Let's call it an OCEAN Race, not Offshore.

February is before the start of the regular season for any sanctioning body, so we are not infringing on your dates. Anybody and everybody is free to help. All of the world boating press will be in town for the boat show, so there will be plenty of coverage from the boating world.

Whatever simple classes we come up with should also include an opportunity for the average guy to get in on this too. Guys like Bob the Builder, have said they are in....and he is not a racer in any group out there.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Hold them accountable for unification...

In reality we want the same thing...I'm just a little less patient about it than you are. After all some of us have less time to waste waiting for the promise to be fulfilled. ;)

T2x

I don't think unification has much to do with it. There are enough racers and types of boats to full fill two different strategies.

One can not do it all as well as two different groups can. IMO

Yes, I do agree some consolidation is in order.

[Sean Stinson]

Okay then let's give it to them.

HORBA had planned on staging a race from Miami to Key West next February on the weekend after the Miami Boat show. It is the second oldest course in US offshore history, after the Catalina race. It is 185 miles non-stop.

HORBA will gladly give up the sponsorship to any other sanctioning body or any group that say they want to race together and will help in any way we can to put the race on.

Let's call it an OCEAN Race, not Offshore.

February is before the start of the regular season for any sanctioning body, so we are not infringing on your dates. Anybody and everybody is free to help. All of the world boating press will be in town for the boat show, so there will be plenty of coverage from the boating world.

Whatever simple classes we come up with should also include an opportunity for the average guy to get in on this too. Guys like Bob the Builder, have said they are in....and he is not a racer in any group out there.


Charlie please call me I need to catch you up:sifone::sifone::sifone:

[Ted]

I don't think unification has much to do with it. There are enough racers and types of boats to full fill two different strategies.

One can not do it all as well as two different groups can. IMO

Yes, I do agree some consolidation is in order.


I have to disagree Jim, if all the best people from each organization were working for the same thing and using each of their strengths accordingly we could have ONE very well run organization. But there is too much history and too many ill informed people to make that happen right now.....Unless it is done by force.

[Top Banana]

Charlie please call me I need to catch you up:sifone::sifone::sifone:


Sean PM me your number.

[Ryan Beckley]

If ONE organization REFUSES to work with another how will it ever work. ONE organization has tried to work with the others time and time again to no avail. Jim is right, racers need to support the organization that they believe in and see where the cards fall. Race were you feel works best for your program, give the others a shot and see what works best for you. Focusing you efforts on unity is unfortunatley a waste of time at this point.

[T2x]

If ONE organization REFUSES to work with another how will it ever work.

It's so simple that it becomes complex......... If one refuses to work with another...let the people who care about the sport...give in.

As bad as SBI/APBA is (the group that I presume is refusing to work with others)......... The other groups are just as guilty....of existing in the first place. Hard as this is to understand none of the groups is necessary in any way without a unified product to sell to sponsors.

Bottom line, if the racers would get together as a group "United we Race" they can dictate to any organization they please. The racers caused this in the first place and they continue to enable the problem by selfishly racing wherever they d*mn well please and wherever victory is easiest.

I have sadly concluded some years ago that until there are 10 boats and 12 separate organizations with 20 classes, the light bulb will not go on.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Rich,
It is sad and at times comical. A group splits off apba . OPT is formed and is short lived. You say that eventual became SBI . I don't know the details and don't care. SBI rivals apba for years and changes names a few times. US offshore hangs a few years and dies. OSS forms and builds some steam. apba and sbi merge. A group of OSS guys split and start Supercat seems to not have a strong following. OPA is formed and gains strength.

It may be over simplified, but how can you say any one group is guilty of existing?

[Brownie]

Like Jake Trotter said back in the early days, "I agree with you a hundred percent, but you are WRONG"!

[stainless]

what do you guys think of the x cat series in dubai?

[Ryan Beckley]

Well just so you know X-cat already canceled two of there 6 races this year. As far as the racing goes I'll let you know after I get back from Dubai & Abu Dabi in a few weeks , racing with GB.

[stainless]

Good luck Ryan kick some butt over there !

[mikey]

Well just so you know X-cat already canceled two of there 6 races this year. As far as the racing goes I'll let you know after I get back from Dubai & Abu Dabi in a few weeks , racing with GB.

Good luck over there Ryan!!!!

[Jeff Helmkamp]

I am not a racer, never have been. I am a fan most of all and a guy who takes pictures at the events I am lucky enough to get to attend. Speaking as a fan of the sport since the ’93 season when SBR (now SBI) came to LOTO, I can tell you that last weekends race in Biloxi was a little bit of a disappointment to me the fan. I still enjoyed the experience and it was far better than sitting at home in Illinois, but it could have been much more exciting, even with the boats that were there.

I saw too few boats out on the course at one time. The CL class had 6 boats and that is pretty good today, but they should have been out there with another class or two of similar speeds. There were too many times when I was just sitting there for minutes at a time waiting for a boat to come around. I brought my daughter to this race and she was bored out of her mind. I gave her a camera and she took pictures of the boats on cranes most of the time to help keep her occupied. This was her first race and she doesn’t think she wants to go to another one at this point.

The turbines put on a great show, but they were never really racing close. With only two boats in that class, since the other one was doing a poker run instead of racing, I guess they will just take turns following each other around the course. The 750 & 850 racing was great. Close battles going on every race. The 750 guys really did well and I believe even were the overall winners between the two classes…good job “Talkn’ Trash.” I agree with others that this should be one big class.

I really enjoy the CL, 750, 850, CLO, and SVL classes. I only wish they (OSS) could find a way to get more of them out on the course at the same time so there isn’t as much down time waiting for boats to go by.

One last thing, as far as heat racing goes, using the turbines as an example, JBS won one heat and MGR won the other; who was the event winner? Does it go by time?

Congratulations to all the winners from the weekend. Congratulations to Ryan Beckley for receiving a high honor from his peers the Randy Lineback award.

[glh]

In reviewing the posted results from this past weekend's race at Biloxi:

1 There were 26 boats in attendance
2. There were 10 classes
3. Only 4 classes (actual racing not bracket) had more than 3 boats
4. Only 2 classes had more than 5 boats
5. 2 classes had one boat racing (both boats wasting Miccosukee's sponsorship dollars)

IMHO

Merge 750 and 850 Super cat...There were 5 boats between them with essentially identical budgets.

Merge those two with Super Cat Light (similar budget again) and use a weight/HP "levelizer" formula.

Now we're up to 11 boats

Eliminate Turbine class and make those guys race in the above combined class (saving those two and future teams a boatload of money and avoiding the inevitable 170+ mph fatal accident that will happen sooner or later)

Now we're up to 13 boats.

Market that class and the Single engined canopied vee 5 boats(OSSVL) ...exclusively as your 2 major classes. That will force the other teams with similar budgets (OSS outboard and SV) into one or the other classes respectively.

Now you have 18-22 boats in 2 classes of real racing

Split $60,000 prize money between the two classes on a 66-33% split

Let the "P" guys play as they please, but off camera and for trophies only, with the clear understanding that when they want to get serious they have the top 2 classes to choose from.

Just my .02

T2x

P.S. This is the same formula (2 major classes including one "premier class" plus "development leagues") I suggested to APBA/Offshore leadership in 1986 and 1996
__________________The Oatmeal a little weak this morning? I though you Arkensah National Guardsmen were fed properly...:seeya:

[Ratickle]

I brought my daughter to this race and she was bored out of her mind. This was her first race and she doesn’t think she wants to go to another one at this point.

I only wish they (OSS) could find a way to get more of them out on the course at the same time so there isn’t as much down time waiting for boats to go by.




That is the one area where a long ocean race is a bad thing. I personally like the shorter course at Key West now vs the old long course from a standpoint of watching the race. I wish they would add a few giant screens and stream live back from the choppers following the course also.

The long ocean races are a made for TV event only, in my opinion, not a huge fan draw in this new age of instant gratification. (I know T2X will beat me up on this one:)).

[Top Banana]

That is the one area where a long ocean race is a bad thing. I personally like the shorter course at Key West now vs the old long course from a standpoint of watching the race. I wish they would add a few giant screens and stream live back from the choppers following the course also.

The long ocean races are a made for TV event only, in my opinion, not a huge fan draw in this new age of instant gratification. (I know T2X will beat me up on this one:)).

The long boring ocean races held off Pt Pleasant drew over 400,000 fans back in the 70's. The race had to be held on a Wednesday rather than a weekend, as the Coast Guard felt they could not control the boat traffic of the crowds.

There were three lower classes....Production and one top class ....Open and everyone understood that the first boat home in those classes won and the next boat was second etc....no brackets, no breakouts.

[smokeybandit]

That is the one area where a long ocean race is a bad thing. I personally like the shorter course at Key West now vs the old long course from a standpoint of watching the race. I wish they would add a few giant screens and stream live back from the choppers following the course also.

The long ocean races are a made for TV event only, in my opinion, not a huge fan draw in this new age of instant gratification. (I know T2X will beat me up on this one:)).


The simple answer to the ocean race is staggered starts so that you have all of the boats running on the course at the same time. With 26 boats you really don't even need a staggered start. Once the boats spread out there are always boats going by. I always found it it exciting to see rooster tails coming from the distance and not knowing who it was until you actually saw the boat. When there were 2 or more boats of the same class coming at the same time you just knew they had a hell of a fight out there in the open water.

I think the best examples of offshore racing are the Pt. Pleasant races from the late 70's to the mid 80's. The crowds were HUGE. How did they get such large crowds without the spectators seeing the whole course? At one time, the NJ race was billed as the largest spectator fleet in the world. Figure out what was done right back then and just keep doing it.

[T2x]

Rich,
It is sad and at times comical. A group splits off apba . OPT is formed and is short lived. You say that eventual became SBI . I don't know the details and don't care. SBI rivals apba for years and changes names a few times. US offshore hangs a few years and dies. OSS forms and builds some steam. apba and sbi merge. A group of OSS guys split and start Supercat seems to not have a strong following. OPA is formed and gains strength.

It may be over simplified, but how can you say any one group is guilty of existing?

Back when we were ignorant, the racers thought that the UIM was the World sanctioning body and the APBA was its U.S. arm. We stupidly thought that we only needed one sanctioning body and one recognized source of World speed record and World Championship designation. We also thought that we only needed one group of referees, inspectors and officials and their overhead and expenses. We also thought that a single Safety group would be the wisest use of limited funds and would allow all safety efforts to be headquartered in one location under one overseer to avoid duplication of effort, and needless reinvention of the wheel.

Every subsequent group has been redundant and unneccesary.

If you look at it from that perspective and take misplaced loyalty to extraneous and destructive organizations out of the picture, you will see just how absurd the whole scene has become.

Look, AMF has the deepest pockets in the scene right now and promotes this "United" malarkey while moving from group to group. Why not invest solely in backing a single entity? Certainly all of those people who line up for a free meal at their trailer will fall into lockstep until a real series sponsor can be found.

T2x

[T2x]

Like Jake Trotter said back in the early days, "I agree with you a hundred percent, but you are WRONG"!

On the other hand.....

She wore a glove..........

:D

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

Hell Pt Pleasant this year had a few folks there not 400k but I saw a lot on the seawalls as we went out of the breakwater!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

The simple fact is this with the current racing scenario you could add the tunnel boats and the hydroplanes to it as we are running the same course!!!!! It's all hogwash in my book. Better yet we could have the drag boats running in the center at the same time then and only then will you have a boat count like we did back in the days and again in the late 90's early 2000's.....

[T2x]

The long ocean races are a made for TV event only, in my opinion, not a huge fan draw in this new age of instant gratification.

If you are relying on your event spectators to make you a great sport the wait will be endless. TV is, in fact, the key to the castle.

All you need is that color guy who can do live to tape, unscripted monologues for 90 minutes non stop while riding in a helicopter with the door off at 120 mph.

Whatever happened to him.......? ;)

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

We can have this arguement for another 10 yeras and personally I dont have that much time to watch this bull****... A unification is very much needed by the racers under one banner with a board of directors that runs the show if you dont like the show go to a poker run because the reason you dont like the show are 2 reasons

1) You cant get your **** together enough to win!!!
2) You dont have bragging rights because of reason #1

We can debate this until the sky turns green and heaven has brass poles for all of us that go to the church of the dancing girls......

[Sean Stinson]

[QUOTE=Ratickle;170112]The long ocean races are a made for TV event only, in my opinion, not a huge fan draw in this new age of instant gratification. QUOTE]

If you are relying on your event spectators to make you a great sport the wait will be endless. TV is, in fact, the key to the castle.

All you need is that color guy who can do live to tape, unscripted monologues for 90 minutes non stop while riding in a helicopter with the door off at 120 mph.

Whatever happened to him.......? ;)

T2x

He was driving a getaway van in Pt Pleasant last summer as he dropped old offshore DVD's out the window:sifone::sifone::sifone::sifone:

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

The simple fact is this with the current racing scenario you could add the tunnel boats and the hydroplanes to it as we are running the same course!!!!! It's all hogwash in my book. Better yet we could have the drag boats running in the center at the same time then and only then will you have a boat count like we did back in the days and again in the late 90's early 2000's.....

Sean, We all have different perspectives and opinions. Mine is as a racer , Rich's is as a commentator, Jeff's as a photographer. What is yours?

I hope this thread is intended to be constructive criticism, but how can that comment possibly help anything?

[boatme]

The long boring ocean races held off Pt Pleasant drew over 400,000 fans back in the 70's. The race had to be held on a Wednesday rather than a weekend, as the Coast Guard felt they could not control the boat traffic of the crowds.

There were three lower classes....Production and one top class ....Open and everyone understood that the first boat home in those classes won and the next boat was second etc....no brackets, no breakouts.


Charlie same thing happened in Grand Haven Michigan in the 80s More spectators than they knw what to do with and boats only blew by a few times running the lakeshore to South Haven and past Grand Haven to Muskegon and back
You do not need a roundy round course to make it an event and a successful one

It is about THE EVENT ,and ohh by the way a cool race broke out as well
Look at the Iditarod or Dakkar or Tour De France all BIG events that only blow by ONCE

Personally I don’t care for the roundy round

I think Charlie’s old school race is a true test of man and machine

A great long distance race, can be held with great attendance to the entire event, if it was promoted and built up as an event not as a race
Like I said the race is only a SMALL part of the event

We need Charlie in the booth, Rich Lurs In the air, boats on the course and fans on the ground and water

And we need Coverage on TV Radio, Newsprint ect for THE EVENT not just for the race

[THEJOKER]

The main problem in my eyes is offshore has no home. It needs a gated , ticketed site that the fans can gather. Car racing was nothing on the beaches either. When DIS was built , car racing was born. It's all about real estate and logistics. Get this together and the fans and teams will come.

[Sean Stinson]

Sean, We all have different perspectives and opinions. Mine is as a racer , Rich's is as a commentator, Jeff's as a photographer. What is yours?

I hope this thread is intended to be constructive criticism, but how can that comment possibly help anything?


Jimmy

Mine is as an ex-racer/crew member of world champion race teams who would like to see it like it was!!!!

The way I see it the reason we have so many classes is so the people that fall into reason 1 above have enough money to start their own class if not their own series.....Tell me I am wrong we have all seen it!!!! Unified we stand divided we fall.....Don't believe me go back in history to the days of the 7th Calvary and Sitting Bull....Although it didn't work out for the Indians in the long run Custer had a very bad day when he split up!!!! Now that the calvary is unified again we are a very formidable fighting force!!!

Does anyone see the moral of the story at all here!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

Charlie same thing happened in Grand Haven Michigan in the 80s More spectators than they knw what to do with and boats only blew by a few times running the lakeshore to South Haven and past Grand Haven to Muskegon and back
You do not need a roundy round course to make it an event and a successful one

It is about THE EVENT ,and ohh by the way a cool race broke out as well
Look at the Iditarod or Dakkar or Tour De France all BIG events that only blow by ONCE

Personally I don’t care for the roundy round

I think Charlie’s old school race is a true test of man and machine

A great long distance race, can be held with great attendance to the entire event, if it was promoted and built up as an event not as a race
Like I said the race is only a SMALL part of the event

We need Charlie in the booth, Rich Lurs In the air, boats on the course and fans on the ground and water

And we need Coverage on TV Radio, Newsprint ect for THE EVENT not just for the race

Dont forget the Baja1000 Marc

[boatme]

Jimmy

Mine is as an ex-racer/crew member of world champion race teams who would like to see it like it was!!!!

The way I see it the reason we have so many classes is so the people that fall into reason 1 above have enough money to start their own class if not their own series.....Tell me I am wrong we have all seen it!!!! Unified we stand divided we fall.....Don't believe me go back in history to the days of the 7th Calvary and Sitting Bull....Although it didn't work out for the Indians in the long run Custer had a very bad day when he split up!!!! Now that the calvary is unified again we are a very formidable fighting force!!!

Does anyone see the moral of the story at all here!!!!

Yea i see the moral

DONT LET STINSON THINK it might make sence and that would be scary LOL

[Sean Stinson]

Yea i see the moral

DONT LET STINSON THINK it might make sence and that would be scary LOL

Exactly.....:sifone::sifone::sifone:

Whats wrong with your phone Blondin?????

[Sean Stinson]

My point is not to compare boat racing to cowboys and indians....but to show that there was a winning unified body and that when a few that didn't like how it was going split into their own little cliques, for lack of a better word, and slowly they fell one by one until they unified again to come back stronger than ever!!!!!!

[Ratickle]

The long ocean races are a made for TV event only, in my opinion, not a huge fan draw in this new age of instant gratification.


If you are relying on your event spectators to make you a great sport the wait will be endless. TV is, in fact, the key to the castle.

All you need is that color guy who can do live to tape, unscripted monologues for 90 minutes non stop while riding in a helicopter with the door off at 120 mph.

Whatever happened to him.......? ;)

T2x


Not sure? :sifone: Let me know when you locate him.....:)

[T2x]

Sean, We all have different perspectives and opinions. Mine is as a racer , Rich's is as a commentator, Jeff's as a photographer. What is yours?

I hope this thread is intended to be constructive criticism, but how can that comment possibly help anything?

For the record, my resume and perspective is as a racer first, a boat builder second, a commentator third, and last, but not least, a curmudgeon.

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

Alright I have to jump out for awhile...Rich I will call you this evening!!!! Have a great discussion later we can compare the roman empire and boat racing :D:D:D:D

[Ratickle]

Charlie same thing happened in Grand Haven Michigan in the 80s More spectators than they knw what to do with and boats only blew by a few times running the lakeshore to South Haven and past Grand Haven to Muskegon and back
You do not need a roundy round course to make it an event and a successful one

It is about THE EVENT ,and ohh by the way a cool race broke out as well
Look at the Iditarod or Dakkar or Tour De France all BIG events that only blow by ONCE

Personally I don’t care for the roundy round

I think Charlie’s old school race is a true test of man and machine

A great long distance race, can be held with great attendance to the entire event, if it was promoted and built up as an event not as a race
Like I said the race is only a SMALL part of the event

We need Charlie in the booth, Rich Lurs In the air, boats on the course and fans on the ground and water

And we need Coverage on TV Radio, Newsprint ect for THE EVENT not just for the race

The difference to me, then to now, is there was not TiVo, X Box, Playstation, Internet, Home Movies, etc. TV is the only answer to a long offshore race, otherwise, as Jeff said, the average spectator will be bored and not want to come back. Why do Unlimited Races, and Drag Boat Races, get more spectators now than they had then?

[Ratickle]

Alright I have to jump out for awhile...Rich I will call you this evening!!!! Have a great discussion later we can compare the roman empire and boat racing :D:D:D:D

I thought it was the Ancient Greeks with their oarsmen that ruled....

[Ratickle]

For the record, my resume and perspective is as a racer first, a boat builder second, a commentator third, and last, but not least, a curmudgeon.

T2x

cur·mudg·eon (kr-mjn)
n.
An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.

[Origin unknown.]


cur·mudgeon·ly adj.
cur·mudgeon·ry n.


Also, origin unknown......:sifone:

[Ratickle]

The main problem in my eyes is offshore has no home. It needs a gated , ticketed site that the fans can gather. Car racing was nothing on the beaches either. When DIS was built , car racing was born. It's all about real estate and logistics. Get this together and the fans and teams will come.

As I said before, a race coinciding with the reopening of the Miami Marine Stadium, where they make a turn in the Stadium Pond (?), and run out somewhere in the ocean and back. With a giant Big Screen TV and live helicopter coverage non-stop would kick this in the rear bigtime.

Especially if classes could include the Europeans, Arabs, and downunder guys.

[T2x]

The main problem in my eyes is offshore has no home. It needs a gated , ticketed site that the fans can gather. Car racing was nothing on the beaches either. When DIS was built , car racing was born. It's all about real estate and logistics. Get this together and the fans and teams will come.

Brian:

That's why Miami Marine Stadium is a treasure worth keeping.

T2x

[T2x]

cur·mudg·eon (kr-mjn)
n.
An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.

[Origin unknown.]


cur·mudgeon·ly adj.
cur·mudgeon·ry n.


Also, origin unknown......:sifone:

Exactly.........

By the way, my motto is:

"The majority of people are almost always wrong."

How do you think Pelosi, Obama, and Barney Frank got elected?

T2x

[boatme]

Sean

I am not sure what is wrong with the phone

Give me a number or PM me and i will call you

[Ratickle]

Sean

I am not sure what is wrong with the phone

Give me a number or PM me and i will call you

Pay your bill......:sifone:

[boatme]

Pay your bill......:sifone:

Wondered what that envelope was sitting there

Said Verison i thought it said Viagra and i knew i didnt need that :)

[Pete B]

Just curious, many say the offshore of old is the ticket, if thats the case why then last year at the Miami-Bimini run was their ONE vintage boat???? Drag boats, Tunnels, and Hydros, keep the spectator occupied, you dont want to miss the show. To me the bottom line is racing is entertainment! If you dont entertain the fans, they wont be there long. potential sponsors wont either, many say lok at what P-1 does,they are spending a lot of someone's cash on marketing. Class 1 same thing lots of someones money. Class 3 or X class, now there is some racing going on there.

[stainless]

If you are relying on your event spectators to make you a great sport the wait will be endless. TV is, in fact, the key to the castle.

All you need is that color guy who can do live to tape, unscripted monologues for 90 minutes non stop while riding in a helicopter with the door off at 120 mph.

Whatever happened to him.......? ;)

T2x

Those tapes were the best rich !:sifone:

[ar15meister]

very interesting thread guys.

[T2x]

Just curious, many say the offshore of old is the ticket, if thats the case why then last year at the Miami-Bimini run was their ONE vintage boat???? .

Because Augie and Billy Martin are still racing their's in the P classes...and the rest were confiscated by the government..... :D

T2x

[Pete B]

T2x,
I certainly hope you will share your insite and musings throughout the race and Poker run season. Your commentary is much like talk Radio personalities I listen to, while I dont always agree with them, I respect thier views and opinions. I attended 16 events last year, from the outboard worlds, to class 1 to F-1, all had entertainment value, some better than others.

Biloxi has always had a great fan turn out. It is my opinion that racer's that sit on the fence to see what will happen at this site are missing the bus.

[Ratickle]

Wondered what that envelope was sitting there

Said Verison i thought it said Viagra and i knew i didnt need that :)

That's your story....

[Top Banana]

Those tapes were the best rich !:sifone:

And they still are ......available on new DVD format..

www.historicraceboats.com

[T2x]

T2x,
I certainly hope you will share your insite and musings throughout the race and Poker run season. Your commentary is much like talk Radio personalities I listen to, while I dont always agree with them, I respect thier views and opinions.

You know, when I was a paid commentator and an APBA official, there were certain "limits and suggestions" that were placed on my ramblings, and I chafed under them (as my colleagues can certainly remember---especially the producers). The web has allowed my alter ego-T2x- to emerge and challenge some pompous notions and stick pins in the balloons of false idols. While I may not always agree with T2x either(Can you spell schizophrenia?), the character has been very useful in stimulating thought and shedding light on issues that are clouded by good ol' boy networks, sacred cows, and big spenders. He has also said the things that many are thinking privately but are too intimidated to speak openly about.

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

Rich

[Ratickle]

You know, when I was a paid commentator and an APBA official, there were certain "limits and suggestions" that were placed on my ramblings, and I chafed under them (as my colleagues can certainly remember---especially the producers). The web has allowed my alter ego-T2x- to emerge and challenge some pompous notions and stick pins in the balloons of false idols. While I may not always agree with T2x (Can you spell schizophrenia?), the character has been very useful in stimulating thought and shedding light on issues that are clouded by good ol' boy networks, sacred cows, and big spenders. He has also said the things that many are thinking privately but are too intimidated to speak openly about.

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

Rich

Ah, Swartzcraft comes to mind.....:sifone:

[Ron P]

Square one is to have a face to face meeting and have meaningful conversation about running some joint events and a joint World Championship. OPA and SBI refuse to have such a meeting with OSS. I've tried several times with OPA and have now given up. SBI is just a dead issue until JC retires.

As I've said before. If they racers want unification, they can force it to happen at any time.

If someone wants to host a meeting, just say when and where and I'll be there. Until that can happen, the rest is all BS.

The problem with Offshore is the people running the organizations. I am trying not to be one of the problems. I prefer to look for solutions.

Ron Polli
OSS - President
732 552 0669

[T2x]

The problem with Offshore is the people running the organizations. I am trying not to be one of the problems. I prefer to look for solutions.

Ron Polli
OSS - President
732 552 0669

Well said Ron

The longest journeys all start with the first step.......

However, the problem with Offshore is the people who tolerate the people running the organizations, and lobbied for more than one group in the first place. Your group (OSS) was started by a bunch of guys to protest APBA and part of the same group then went and started another group to protest OSS ( you can't make this stuff up). All of this was before your term as president and you had nothing to do with it.

The slogan "United we race" should be replaced with "Shut up and race".

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

Square one is to have a face to face meeting and have meaningful conversation about running some joint events and a joint World Championship. OPA and SBI refuse to have such a meeting with OSS. I've tried several times with OPA and have now given up. SBI is just a dead issue until JC retires.

As I've said before. If they racers want unification, they can force it to happen at any time.

If someone wants to host a meeting, just say when and where and I'll be there. Until that can happen, the rest is all BS.

The problem with Offshore is the people running the organizations. I am trying not to be one of the problems. I prefer to look for solutions.

Ron Polli
OSS - President
732 552 0669


Ron

You have always been a class act...With that being said maybe if more would extend olive branches we could get back to the old style racing!!!!

Sean

PS I will save my incoherent ramblings about the Romans and Greeks for later!!:sifone::sifone::sifone::sifone:

[chewiekw]

I am just going to buy the old DVD's grab a cold one and sit back relax and enjoy...

[Sean Stinson]

I am just going to buy the old DVD's grab a cold one and sit back relax and enjoy...

:sifone::sifone::sifone::sifone::sifone::sifone::sifone::sifone::sifone:

[Ron P]

Well said Ron

The longest journeys all start with the first step.......

However, the problem with Offshore is the people who tolerate the people running the organizations, and lobbied for more than one group in the first place. Your group was started by a bunch of guys to protest APBA and part of the same group then went and started another group to protest you ( you can't make this stuff up). All of this was before your term as president and you had nothing to do with it.

The slogan "United we race" should be replaced with "Shut up and race".

T2x

Funny, I believe Mike A came up with "Shut up and Race". I came up with "United we Race" and Haggin ran with it. I just never imagined it would be this hard to accomplish.

[Miller]

Television is the KEY. And, it may yet DICTATE an entirely new venue and direction for the sport. Only time will tell....

[Jeff Helmkamp]

Jim, you are correct, my perspective is through a lens, but I’m not getting paid by anyone so I am more a fan than anything. Therefore, the more boats I see the better. Long intervals between boats are tough for spectators and cameramen who are stationary. That is why I say on a long course put all the boats out there that safety will allow due to the diverse speeds. Eventually, there will be boats at all points on the course. The more boats that are going by the spectators the more interested they will be.

As I stated earlier, I started watching offshore in ’93 with SBR. They didn’t have many boats at the LOTO race that year but I still enjoyed it because I didn’t have a barometer to go by. Then I went to Key West in November of 94 and there were over a hundred boats (all orgs were represented there) that was a blast. There were just about as many open boats there then as there are in total at any race, any org puts on now. As a side note, I follow drag racing also and they are having trouble getting full 16 car fields also. The only drag racing that is thriving right now is the Outlaw Pro Mod’s running 1/8 mile in ADRL. Heck, the IHRA is having trouble getting 8 car fields when they are supposed to be 16. I don’t know the reason why offshore has lost so many of its competitors, I suspect I know the reason though. I just know that we will never have another 94 or 95 Key West until all the orgs come together to make it happen

I just don’t get why all the orgs don’t work together to make it happen. JC can’t be pleased when he gets 16 or whatever the number of boats that were in NY last year. Now, if OPA and OSS were there thus bringing the number up to 60 or 70, now that would be a race his sponsors and the spectators would enjoy and I suspect most competitors as well.

Lately, I have only been to OSS races and the Worlds in Key West so I don’t know what an OPA or SBI race is like without it being in Key West. I really like the brand of racing OSS puts on, I just wish they would put more boats on the course at a time. If they only have 26 boats in the pits then find a way to get two races of 13 boats in each race if you can’t get them all out there.

Having said all that, I still cannot wait until the next boat race on my schedule. I appreciate all Ron, JC, and Smitty do to put on the races; I just wish they were all together at the same venue.

[1waterboy1]

We dont need joint races...we need one organization period.I really think that APBA Offshore was on the right track..great race sites with national and regional circuts, two days of racing,two premiere featured classes(Super Cat and Super Vee)...manufactuers classes with manufacturer support(Mercury,GM, and the boat companies in Factory 2 and Factory 1)..and run what you brung classes for everything else(Performance 1,2,3,4,5).There was very competitive racing in the top classes(SC,SV,F2 and F1) with usually 15 and as many as 25(F2) or more boats in each class.The overall boat count was usually a minimum of 60 with as many as 90!The televsion program showed racing...it was not a commercial for a boat company,or a show featuring the parties or the lifestyle of offshore powerboat racers!

So what happened?Why did the sport split,and then split again?Does anyone actually think that the sport is better now than it was at the end of 2003?There may have been some issues; but the worst thing to do was to start another organization.It has been said so many times before,but why cant we learn from the past.This has all happened many times before,not only in offshore;but in other forms of motorsports as well.After all,the fued between CART and IRL produced disastrous results in what once was the greatest motorsport event in the world;the Indianapolis 500.At least they finally merged, and interest in indy car racing is on the rise again.

APBA,NPBA,USPBA,OPT,USO,SBI,APBA OFFSHORE,OSS,OPA,OPS....whats next?The sport simply cannot thrive with multiple sanctioning bodies.I bet if a full merger was achieved,alot more people would be interested in offshore powerboat racing again.The results speak for themselves.

And lets get back to racing in the ocean!In my opinion,heat races in flat water are better suited for hydroplanes.We dont need the huge courses of the old days that took boats miles out to sea.I think multiple lap short course races in rough water would level the playing field and keep the boats close.This would be exciting for the racers and the fans.

Offshore powerboat racing is an awesome motorsport.The key to commercial success is televsion.Since we are not getting a gate at the races;why are we so focused on inshore racing?The crowds were much larger in the seventies and eighties;and the people on shore only saw the boats at the begining and the end of the race.We need to capture the spectacle of boats with screaming engines leaping off the ocean swells racing not only each other but the ocean itself.That is something that even the casual fan has shown interest in.

Lets all work together to get it headed in the right direction again.The first step in unification.I still believe that offshore has alot of potential to be the next great motorsport.

[Ratickle]

Does anyone actually think that the sport is better now than it was at the end of 2003?

After all,the fued between CART and IRL resulted in disastrous results in what once was the greatest motorsport event in the world;the Indianapolis 500.At least they finally merged, and interest in indy car racing is on the rise again.


Offshore powerboat racing is an awesome motorsport.The key to commercial success is televsion.We need to capture the spectacle of boats with screaming engines leaping off the ocean swells racing not only each other but the ocean itself.That is something that even the casual fan has shown interest in. Lets all work together to get it headed in the right direction again.The first step is unification.I still believe that our sport has alot of potential to be the next great motorsport.


Usually don't quote those I don't know, but well said. It's up to all of us to work at it.

[cigdaze]

So what happened?Why did the sport split,and then split again?Does anyone actually think that the sport is better now than it was at the end of 2003?There may have been some issues; but the worst thing to do was to start another organization.It has been said so many times before,but why cant we learn from the past.This has all happened many times before,not only in offshore;but in other forms of motorsports as well.After all,the fued between CART and IRL produced disastrous results in what once was the greatest motorsport event in the world;the Indianapolis 500.At least they finally merged, and interest in indy car racing is on the rise again.
Better now? No way; and it won't be until we strip the plurality from the word organization(s). It's obvious that merging will never happen, so someone is going to have to concede - be it willfully or and the behest of the racers. And this one organization, whichever it is, will have to stop making classes for boats, and start insisting on making boats for classes.

[Dunbar 104]

I think it is pretty simple. Competitors will seek competition. Quit rewarding those that run from it, those that buy victory, and those that race in the wrong class. Heaven for bid that you just might have to sell your boat and buy something that is competitive, or change classes to be in a class that you can afford, or be competive in. And for those that a waiting for things change to there way of thinking. Your buoy kicker. Your never going to buy, or race anything.

[TCEd]

Looking at the SBI, OSS and OPA schedules it looks like each sanctioning body has claimed a geographical region. SBI has Florida, OPA has the upper east and Michigan and OSS has the Gulf ,mid-south and Lotto.
Other than the big money teams do most racers run within their sanctioning body and save some travel costs or cross over and run everyones events ?
ed

[Pete B]

Dunbar 104,
You are correct about some running from competition, SVL is the Most affordable, and safe way to race. with Cat OB a close 2nd. but instead of joining ranks with boats of similar hulls/Motors they run to where chance of a win is more probable.

Congrats on your win in Biloxi!!

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

TCEd

No question it is easier to stay close to home. I don't see any correlation between proximity and consistency

I studied last years teams near the end of last season. As I remember In OSS 18 of 22 boat average did every event for OSS. Only 3 did all of SBI events. In OPA 17 did every event and 24 did all 3 Geico cup Events.

Amsoil run the most events All OSS most OPA and a few West coast. Geico did many as well. Ryan ran all OSS plus 3 SBI, Sarasota Marathon and Key West.

There were a bunch that did pick and choose convenient travel events.

I believe the best thing a racer can do is race a complete series.

Everyone likes to talk about boat count. Consistent boats racing is more important then registered boats or a single big event. IMO

[Ratickle]

Dunbar 104,
You are correct about some running from competition, SVL is the Most affordable, and safe way to race. with Cat OB a close 2nd. but instead of joining ranks with boats of similar hulls/Motors they run to where chance of a win is more probable.

Congrats on your win in Biloxi!!

I was looking at Cat OB, but was convinced for a beginner, a cat is not the best starter boat. So SVL is currently where I pay attention.

ANd I would be staying as close to home as possible. I would love to be able to tow all over, but if all the orgs had an SVL class, I would do the NY?Jersey, LOTO, St Clair & Harrison etc.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Paul, You could run a SVL OSS legal boat in the other classes in the other groups. If you modify it you can run it in Pro AM OSS. I may be wrong, but I think the motor is worth more as sealed stock. There was a SBI class boat with a vortec that ran in Pro AM last week end.

[Next Generation]

because augie and billy martin are still racing their's in the p classes...and the rest were confiscated by the government..... :d

t2x

lmao!

[Dunbar 104]

ANd I would be staying as close to home as possible. I would love to be able to tow all over, but if all the orgs had an SVL class, I would do the NY?Jersey, LOTO, St Clair & Harrison etc.[/QUOTE]


That is what causes the problem we currently have. Pick a series If you really want to race SVL your going to have to travel and run OSS. Sorry but if your not willing to travel than your not ready to race SVL. Asking series that does not have a class following just adds to the problem. Last year we had a race in in Havasu. Alot of the SVLs were not going to go. Brad Johnson who drives from California to race SVL with us asked that we go his direction and race, and almost every team made it. 3500 miles for some. It was a good race we won.

[MarylandMark]

Travel costs is an issue that would hopefully solve itself if there was one organization which would IMHO lead to better sponsorships. You think Dale Jr is manning the register at the Chevy parts counter M-F to race on Sunday?

[Ratickle]

ANd I would be staying as close to home as possible. I would love to be able to tow all over, but if all the orgs had an SVL class, I would do the NY?Jersey, LOTO, St Clair & Harrison etc.



That is what causes the problem we currently have. Pick a series If you really want to race SVL your going to have to travel and run OSS. Sorry but if your not willing to travel than your not ready to race SVL. Asking series that does not have a class following just adds to the problem. Last year we had a race in in Havasu. Alot of the SVLs were not going to go. Brad Johnson who drives from California to race SVL with us asked that we go his direction and race, and almost every team made it. 3500 miles for some. It was a good race we won.

Wasn't my point, sorry.

What I meant was, if there was only one org, or if all orgs had a SVL or similar where one, which I will call it entry level - nonbracket class boat, would fit. We would be racing. I can't take time off work, (well now I could, but Terri can't), and support a race boat and travel all over.

I would love too, but don't have the budget.

Remember the old Great Lakes Silver Series? (Think that's right). Was very popular and well attended. Leave work Friday evening, tow to site, race Sat or Sun, tow home, at work Monday.


And qualify for Worlds....

[T2x]

Funny, I believe Mike A came up with "Shut up and Race". I came up with "United we Race" and Haggin ran with it. I just never imagined it would be this hard to accomplish.

Having one group sanction Offshore Racing is not hard.......it's really simple...too simple apparently for the "great minds" to grasp at times.

The fact is that maybe all of the real racers, the guys who worked within a single set of rules for the first 30 years of Offshore racing..... or got beached for a year for cheating..... have disappeared. There was no whining about a boat being 2 inches too short, or faster in certain conditions, or having a bigger budget. It was what it was.

Sadly, today...it is what it is.

May I suggest a new slogan?

"Shut up and race United"

T2x

[T2x]

This may be as simple as having a series of meetings of all race boat owners on a conference call schedule. Make the agenda simple.

What races will you all attend, either regionally or nationally?

How can you all fit into 2 major and x number of minor classes?

After that give the rules to the so-called sanctioning bodies and tell them that you will race under these conditions or not at all....... and that you will only tolerate one group of officials (elected by you...but then give them authority and shut up), directors(appointed by elected officials), and safety personnel....(so they can't saddle you with featherbedded "extras" and so they cannot schedule races on the same dates).

See, It's really very simple. Isn't it?

T2x

[Dunbar 104]

Wasn't my point, sorry.

What I meant was, if there was only one org, or if all orgs had a SVL or similar where one, which I will call it entry level - nonbracket class boat, would fit. We would be racing. I can't take time off work, (well now I could, but Terri can't), and support a race boat and travel all over.

I would love too, but don't have the budget.

Remember the old Great Lakes Silver Series? (Think that's right). Was very popular and well attended. Leave work Friday evening, tow to site, race Sat or Sun, tow home, at work Monday.


And qualify for Worlds....


I understand what you are saying, I just think it is better for the sport to race twice a year with 10 boats heads up vs. 5 times local with one or 2 boats.

[T2x]

Wasn't my point, sorry.


Remember the old Great Lakes Silver Series? (Think that's right). Was very popular and well attended. Leave work Friday evening, tow to site, race Sat or Sun, tow home, at work Monday.


And qualify for Worlds....

Great Lakes Silver Cup Series and the other regional series all fed off ...and fed...... The National Series. Everything was complimentary to each other. The smaller series emulated the larger ones. The "Big Boys" raced in the National races only, while the smaller guys made the National races in their respective regions and attended the "World's" at year's end, but everything was under one banner and one set of rules.

Successful races make more successful races and bring more people into the sport. It's what the novice finds after he gets the bug that makes all the difference. If the venue is simple, uniform and growing, all kinds of good things happen. If it's fragmented, convoluted and hamstrung by egos and Pied Pipers, it's going to crash and burn.

T2x

[Sean Stinson]

...............................................SURU Offshore!!!!!................................................

[Sean Stinson]

Nice ring to it Rich

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Great Lakes Silver Cup Series and the other regional series all fed off ...and fed...... The National Series. Everything was complimentary to each other. The smaller series emulated the larger ones. The "Big Boys" raced in the National races only, while the smaller guys made the National races in their respective regions and attended the "World's" at year's end, but everything was under one banner and one set of rules.

Successful races make more successful races and bring more people into the sport. It's what the novice finds after he gets the bug that makes all the difference. If the venue is simple, uniform and growing, all kinds of good things happen. If it's fragmented, convoluted and hamstrung by egos and Pied Pipers, it's going to crash and burn.

T2x

That is how it was when was first exposed to it. The lowest national class was stock B . Stock was twin 200's. A was cat, B was V.

Yes, that was a good.

A-D were sportsman.

V's were still racing Cats then in the upper classes too.

[T2x]

V's were still racing Cats then in the upper classes too.

They probably should today as well...If a v can't compete....buy a cat...if it can...check to see if the motors were overhauled in North Carolina. :D

[boatme]

Wasn't my point, sorry.


Remember the old Great Lakes Silver Series? (Think that's right). Was very popular and well attended. Leave work Friday evening, tow to site, race Sat or Sun, tow home, at work Monday.


And qualify for Worlds....

My wife was risk manager for the GLSCS it was a cool group and a lot of fun To bad it was like most other groups
it ate itself alive the last year or two before it went away

[Ted]

The funny thing is that the regions and national structure is still basically in place with the different groups. And if everyone came together it could very easily be divided back up and we would lose very few boats or sites. BUT the groups are divided by wants and personalities and unless a purge occured across the board nothing will change.

[Ratickle]

Great Lakes Silver Cup Series and the other regional series all fed off ...and fed...... The National Series. Everything was complimentary to each other. The smaller series emulated the larger ones. The "Big Boys" raced in the National races only, while the smaller guys made the National races in their respective regions and attended the "World's" at year's end, but everything was under one banner and one set of rules.

Successful races make more successful races and bring more people into the sport. It's what the novice finds after he gets the bug that makes all the difference. If the venue is simple, uniform and growing, all kinds of good things happen. If it's fragmented, convoluted and hamstrung by egos and Pied Pipers, it's going to crash and burn.

T2x

That's the way I raced motocross out west. At most, two national events a year.

[THEJOKER]

Brian:

That's why Miami Marine Stadium is a treasure worth keeping.

T2x


Agreed! Make it the offshore powerboat racing hall of fame too!

[Ratickle]

V's were still racing Cats then in the upper classes too.


They probably should today as well...If a v can't compete....buy a cat...if it can...check to see if the motors were overhauled in North Carolina. :D

There you go again.....:rofl: :sifone: :rofl:

[Fast Shafts]

Rich,
Just out of curiosity, what boats and what year(s) did you race? I am specifically asking about offshore, not tunnel.
I remember the first race for your twin outboard 30 Shadow in Barnegat Bay, and thought this was history-the first production cat with two engines beating triple engine V hulls.

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

OSS Biloxi TV show up on http://os.performanceboats.com/

Please check it out!
__________________

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Pretty cool.

I talked to Chris this past weekend. It is great to have someone with his enthusiasm and resources covering our sport. I can't wait to see everything he talked about.

[Ratickle]

OSS Biloxi TV show up on http://os.performanceboats.com/

Please check it out!
__________________

Very nice.

[Sean Stinson]

Does anyone know what the future of Miami Stadium will be....

[Ratickle]

Does anyone know what the future of Miami Stadium will be....

Here's a link to the group handling it. I think T2x and Brownie are both involved.


http://www.marinestadium.org/

[Sean Stinson]

I only have one gripe.......In the future renderings photo #49 why do they have to use a stinking blow boat!!!! I mean come on blow boats are Rhode island.....Miami is the birthplace and home of the muscle boat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

BTW thanks for the link Rat

[T2x]

Rich,
Just out of curiosity, what boats and what year(s) did you race? I am specifically asking about offshore, not tunnel.


I didn't do that much Offshore racing. We got busy building boats for others with Shadow and Conquest, plus I had the TV announcing. That plus my "real job" was a full time career.

On the other hand, earlier (1964-1969) off and on, I ran in races like the Around Long Island race (pre Benihana), The Miss America (Atlantic City Marathon), Chicago-New Buffalo and Milwaukee-Chicago-Milwaukee back when smaller boats were the norm and I was racing OPC full time. Later, after I left the tunnel boats and started Shadow I raced a couple of seasons with various dual engine 21 Vee Shadows (see below), and later raced the first two seasons in a couple of our factory Shadow Cats (also below) to get us established (and apparently it worked, the white hull pictured is Wayne "quicker" Vickers and me qualifying first in the, until then all fuel injected, inboard, Sport Class at the Key West World's-the engines busted off in the final.. That hull, powered by Mercury's super secret, EFI T-4's, was among the fastest in the entire sport at that time). I also throttled Black Duck in its first two races. So maybe 5 full years of Offshore spread over 20+ years of racing( OPC, Outboard, and once in an Inboard hydro) . In truth I found Offshore racing a bit boring at times and hated the concept of driving by committee. You have to remember that I had just come out of 120 mph, 250 lb tunnel hulls with trim on the wheel and under one foot, and a foot throttle. We raced within inches of each other and swapped positions constantly. Later as the Offshore speeds went up another 50 mph that opinion changed.

When you have people like Pete Aitken and Tom Akoury, Willie Diaz, Davey Gilmore, Dom Palumbi, and the Lavin brothers in your boats, you're better off working behind the scenes on set up........ There was a lot of time spent working/testing with Mercury Marine and I did a lot of the test driving on boats like Love-It and Black Duck.

I'll be the first to admit that people like Billy Sirois, Bobby Moore, and Richie Powers had a lot more Offshore seat time than I did. But I did okay, I guess.


I remember the first race for your twin outboard 30 Shadow in Barnegat Bay, and thought this was history-the first production cat with two engines beating triple engine V hulls.

I remember that race well. There was so much belly aching from the Vee bottom guys (Bill Gazelle, et al)that the referee kicked us up two classes to Sport from Production. We still went fast enough for second overall or some such and not only walloped all of the triple outboard vees, we also beat every inboard save one.

I actually had more fun with the little 80+ mph, 21 footers, because we got to race against 30' and larger boats. I actually "hip checked" a 32 footer in a race as we approached a turn when he tried to come over and force me into the infield. I had both the wheel and the throttle in those boats and hit the other boat hard enough with my gunnel to scare him 5 lanes out and away from me on that turn (it did very little good for my co-driver's blood pressure however and he was white knuckled and near hysteria for the remainder of the race). That was normal when racing tunnel boats in Canada, where everydody grew up playing hockey. The first turn in Canadian heat races sounded like a chorus of carpenters framing a house.

The one thing that made us so fast back then, aside from George's marvelous hull designs, was the fact that we were the very first to raise the prop shafts (x Dimension) to OPC heights on both our Outboard and Inboard hulls. Howard Arneson was just starting to do the same thing with his unique drives out west, but we were following traditional proven outboard race boat technology. When we first showed up at both Oshkosh and Lake X the Mercury staff thought we were nuts....until we ran the boat through some speed trials. Within a few months almost every drive in Offshore was either shorthened or remounted.

The best moment, however was a test ride I gave to Gazelle, Jerry Jacoby, Joe Detore, and Dave Gilmore in the Shadow prototype (Beige and Brown hull below) before a race in Freeport, Long Island. As you leave the inlet at Jones Beach going out into the Atlantic there is a 1/4 mile long sand bar to the west of the main channel with surf like breakers and about 3 feet of water. As we headed out the guys were all very nonchalant in part because the boat was so docile at 75-80 mph in a mixed chop and they didn't realize how fast we were going. I figured I would get their attention so I aimed the boat right at the middle of the bar. As I approached there was suddenly a lot of shouting and scurrying for cover amongst the "passengers" ...... Needless to say, we cleared the surf head on without much ado...... and after a lot of cursing, I sold two boats and made two other guys cat "believers". :D

[Sean Stinson]

When you have people like Pete Aitken and Tom Akoury, Willie Diaz, Davey Gilmore, Dom Palumbi, and the Lavin brothers in your boats, you're better off working behind the scenes on set up........ :D

I saw Tom Akoury down in Key West this year while at the worlds at the crab place just before you get to Murray Marine on the southside of US-1 talk about some great stories!!!!!!!

[Ratickle]

I only have one gripe.......In the future renderings photo #49 why do they have to use a stinking blow boat!!!! I mean come on blow boats are Rhode island.....Miami is the birthplace and home of the muscle boat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Too funny.......:rofl:

[T2x]

Here's a link to the group handling it. I think T2x and Brownie are both involved.


http://www.marinestadium.org/

Right now it looks good legally, but given the current budget crisis, the funds may not be so easy to come by.

Having raced their myself a few times, I can't tell you how important this piece of history is to the sport.

T2x

[Fast Shafts]

Thanks T2

[OldSchool]

:)