GM news...Wagoner outed

[phragle]

GM ceo Rick wagoner has just announced he is stepping down immediatly at the request of Obama.

[Wrinkleface]

:eek:

[MacGyver]

GM ceo Rick wagoner has just announced he is stepping down immediatly at the request of Obama.

Wait.....am in the United States yet???? The government asking a CEO to step down...WTF???

[phragle]

this is Obama..wagoner was probably, for all intensive puroposes fired by Obama...I'm guessing the phone call went something like "Rick, it's Obama..it's time to go bud, or I will collapse GM and your life will get really miserable"

[Bobcat]

I thought he was admitting to being a homersexual:03::03:

[Wrinkleface]

I thought he was admitting to being a homersexual:03::03:

which 1????????????:lurk5:

[MattBMiller]

Wow....work is going to be interesting tomorrow

[catmando]

GM ceo Rick wagoner has just announced he is stepping down immediatly at the request of Obama.

Politico is reporting that the Obama administration asked GM CEO Rick Wagoner to step down:

The Obama administration asked Rick Wagoner, the chairman and CEO of General Motors, to step down and he agreed, a White House official said.


The White House confirmed Wagoner was leaving at the government's behest after The Associated Press reported his immediate departure, without giving a reason.

And the Wall Street Journal reports the same:

An administration official confirmed that Mr. Wagoner was asked to step down by the administration as a precondition for ongoing restructuring within the company.

**************************************

General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner will step down from the company, according to several reports.

The timing is curious, considering that President Obama is expected to announce on Monday the next steps to help GM and Chrysler, which have received $17.4 billion in emergency funding from the U.S. Treasury and are asking for more help: G.M. has asked for up to $16.6 billion more, and Chrysler another $5 billion. On Friday, Wagoner was in Washington, DC to meet with the White House auto task force, led by former investment banker Steve Rattner.

Wagoner and GM have been criticized for not doing enough to slash debt and cut costs as part of the giant automaker's agreement with the government.

CNBC first reported that Wagoner would step down, adding that GM did not confirm or deny the report.

The New York Times reports:

The unexpected move by Mr. Wagoner, who has been at the helm of G.M. for eight years, was not confirmed by the company. But a statement about Mr. Wagoner's future will be issued after the president's address...


There was no indication yet who would take over the top job at General Motors. As recently as March 18, Mr. Wagoner said in an interview that he had no indication that his job was in jeopardy because of the task force.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/29/cnbc-gm-ceo-rick-wagoner_n_180516.html

[catmando]

Wow....work is going to be interesting tomorrowYou work for GM? Interesting that GM has more models getting over 30mpg than any other carmaker.

[boatme]

wonder what his severance was

[03darkshadow]

wonder what his severance was



he probably got paid. and now he has one less headache.

[Magic Medicine]

WOW, Obama is scary.

[Wrinkleface]

All BS aside, this is scarry!!!!:boxing_smiley:

[Magic Medicine]

All BS aside, this is scarry!!!!:boxing_smiley:

thats what I said:boxing_smiley:

[glassdave]

I'm sure he will continue to get bonuses

[OldSchool]

All BS aside, this is scarry!!!!:boxing_smiley:

Just wait untill the healthcare plan is forced down our throats and you're doing fillings for $12/hour!!!!!!

:(:(:26::sifone::biggrinjester:

[fund razor]

His salary was increased from about 1.3 million in 2005 to 2.2 million in 2008 after he saved the company 9 billion, negotiated a money saving deal with the UAW, and oversaw a product line revival. Still wasn't enough to turn the company around, obviously. He has been there a while. Not sure if he needed to continue.

[Wrinkleface]

Just wait untill the healthcare plan is forced down our throats and you're doing fillings for $12/hour!!!!!!

:(:(:26::sifone::biggrinjester:

:banghead:

[Blue Oval]

If Obama calls the office,I'am not going to answer the phone.I would hate to loss my job.

[Wrinkleface]

If Obama calls the office,I'am not going to answer the phone.I would hate to loss my job.

I bet he doesn't know any 231 #'s!!!:bigear:

[Scarab KV]

Man makes me nervous. Came up too fast and owes too many people:(

[Blue Oval]

I bet he doesn't know any 231 #'s!!!:bigear:

Thats right,keep under the radar,thats how I work!

[Ted]

I'm sure Barry O has a pal/campaign contributor in mind, maybe we can put some union hack in there, you want bankrupt, that'll get you bankrupt .

[Magic Medicine]

Just wait untill the healthcare plan is forced down our throats and you're doing fillings for $12/hour!!!!!!

:(:(:26::sifone::biggrinjester:

Don't know too many who will spend 10 plus years and 200k to make 12 per hour.

Obama = communist

[Magic Medicine]

Man makes me nervous. Came up too fast and owes too many people:(

one word Chicago

[cuda]

Obama = communist

More precisly, Obama=socialism.

Communism is just socialism at the point of a gun.

[Magic Medicine]

More precisly, Obama=socialism.

Communism is just socialism at the point of a gun.

Your correct ole wise one:sifone:

[Bobcat]

Just wait untill the healthcare plan is forced down our throats and you're doing fillings for $12/hour!!!!!!

:(:(:26::sifone::biggrinjester:

s h it tracy, you are getting a pay raise:26::26::26:

[MattBMiller]

Obama = communist
:ack2:

[MattBMiller]

More precisly, Obama=socialism.

Communism is just socialism at the point of a gun.


:ack2::ack2:

[Wrinkleface]

s h it tracy, you are getting a pay raise:26::26::26:

:banghead:

[Audiofn]

My guess it it went like this. The guy wanted to resign anyhow, so he called up Obama and said I have had enough we are going to need a new guy. Obama thinks in his mind this is a great oportunity for me to look like I am hard on CEO's and asks if he can come off as firing this guy. I hope it back fires on him just like the AIG bonus issue has.

[fund razor]

He was there for 31 years, and most of those were under the old capitalist system. He probably didn't feel like being retrained.

[Playn]

Well when a company comes to the US taxpayer panhandling you have to expect that there will be conditions for that money (as there should be) ...however in my opinion they (congress) are just beating up the auto industry to "look good". It is grandstanding and opportunistic so they can show that they are "good stewards" of the peoples money and take focus off their reckless spending, pork packages, and AIG fiasco. I'd bet that congressmen on a whole don't own too much stock in any of the "big 3" so they are a good target, but I'm not sure I'd make the same statement about their personal interest in the troubled financial institutions.

[Magic Medicine]

:ack2::ack2:

That would be the minority here:26:

[rschap1]

WOW Yep SCARY!!

[Ratickle]

Well when a company comes to the US taxpayer panhandling you have to expect that there will be conditions for that money (as there should be) ...however in my opinion they (congress) are just beating up the auto industry to "look good". It is grandstanding and opportunistic so they can show that they are "good stewards" of the peoples money and take focus off their reckless spending, pork packages, and AIG fiasco. I'd bet that congressmen on a whole don't own too much stock in any of the "big 3" so they are a good target, but I'm not sure I'd make the same statement about their personal interest in the troubled financial institutions.

Well, here goes.


I do not believe GM and Chrysler can survive under the terms of their current structuring of contracts.

The average GM car costs $1400 more than a similar import, (assembled in the USA), in direct wage and employee benefits and an additional $2000 more than the same import, (assembled in the USA), in retiree benefits and pensions. And interestingly, the average Toyota worker in the USA makes more per hour than the average GM employee.

If these two issues are not corrected, the company will be gone sooner or later. I personally do not want any more of my tax dollars used to bail out companies who are poorly managed so, in that context, Wagner should have been gone a long time ago. File chapter 11, keep running under the courts oversight, restructure with a good business plan, and get on with it. You can't continue to lose $ on every car sold.

A strong, worldwide leader will result in the long run.


And AIG should have gone bye bye and only the depositers protected to $? on the dollar.


End.

[phragle]

shhhhhhhh... listen carefully...can you hear the golden parachute ruffling in the breeze??

[phragle]

cntracts my eye... the key to being a successfull car company is designing, building and selling a car that people actually want to buy, I know people who have not gotten rebates or -3% financing, no employee ricing but have actually paid thousand OVER sticker to get a car they wanted. so gm..please design a car that doesnt look like it was concieved by george lucas on acid, and doesnt rattle, shake and fall apart.

[Ted]

cntracts my eye... the key to being a successfull car company is designing, building and selling a car that people actually want to buy, I know people who have not gotten rebates or -3% financing, no employee ricing but have actually paid thousand OVER sticker to get a car they wanted. so gm..please design a car that doesnt look like it was concieved by george lucas on acid, and doesnt rattle, shake and fall apart.


GM sold more cars than ANY other car manufacturer for the past 10 years or so. Their profit margin is pooched due to employee costs of 70 plus dollars as opposed to 40 something dollars to US employees of BMW, Toyota, etc.

[Wrinkleface]

GM sold more cars than ANY other car manufacturer for the past 10 years or so. Their profit margin is pooched due to employee costs of 70 plus dollars as opposed to 40 something dollars to US employees of BMW, Toyota, etc.

GM has wasted alot of $ over the years & that jobs bank program was a joke!! I know multiple people that were in that getting bennys & $$$$ & laughing at GM!! Out fish'n & golf'n etc, while get'n $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Nobody pays me 2 do noth'n!!!!:beatdeadhorse5:

[Offshoredrillin]

The really crazy part is that Chrysler is owned by a hedge fund op that WONT put any money in to support it. Yet the administration does nothing about it.

[phragle]

GM sold more cars than ANY other car manufacturer for the past 10 years or so. Their profit margin is pooched due to employee costs of 70 plus dollars as opposed to 40 something dollars to US employees of BMW, Toyota, etc.

half the equation, so Mc Donlads has sold more burgers than wendy's, does that make McDonalds burgers that good?? when you are willing to pay premium for a good meal, is a big mac really on your mind?? you can forget premium..when you want a DECENT meal..is it a quarter pounder with fries??

[Ratickle]

half the equation, so Mc Donlads has sold more burgers than wendy's, does that make McDonalds burgers that good?? when you are willing to pay premium for a good meal, is a big mac really on your mind?? you can forget premium..when you want a DECENT meal..is it a quarter pounder with fries??

That makes McDonalds burgers the best perceived value.

And they make money.....:sifone:

[Audiofn]

when you want a DECENT meal..is it a quarter pounder with fries??

You just lost all credability with me!!! :26::26:

The Unions are probably the biggest burden on the auto makers. The insane executive compensation is also not helping. Unless they are all willing to sit down at the table and drop their drawers this is all going to end up in the unemployment office. Most every other company and it's employees are taking cost cutting measures, why should the auto union be any different. Thier stubborn attitude is going to get them in a much worse place then if they would just capitulate and get compensated on par with other manufacturers.

[Wobble]

It seems to me that there was something fundamentally wrong in the way GM was run in the past ten years. Ford is in better shape than the other two because it has been on a serious cost cutting program for years.

My guess is that Wagoner offered up more of the "same old, same old" instead of the brutal cost cutting that is needed.

It's going to be very interesting to see who gets the job, that's if they can find someone that wants it.

[Ratickle]

It seems to me that there was something fundamentally wrong in the way GM was run in the past ten years. Ford is in better shape than the other two because it has been on a serious cost cutting program for years.

My guess is that Wagoner offered up more of the "same old, same old" instead of the brutal cost cutting that is needed.

It's going to be very interesting to see who gets the job, that's if they can find someone that wants it.

I'll take it in a heartbeat......:sifone:

[phragle]

Mcdonalds works by volume, increased competition decreases volume, extreme competition severly degrades volume and you get lost in the crowd. if your meal is significantly better than the place down the street, you can charge more and keep volume and be profitable. if you just want to blast out a 99 cent generic cheese burger, the customer will eat at whatever cheeseburger place is closest, he will not seek your establishment.

[Magic Medicine]

I'll take it in a heartbeat......:sifone:

That makes 2 of us, should be easy to make improvements. The person has to be willing to change.

[Wobble]

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090329/CARNEWS/903309997

General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner out, replaced by COO Fritz Henderson

[Ratickle]

Mcdonalds works by volume, increased competition decreases volume, extreme competition severly degrades volume and you get lost in the crowd. if your meal is significantly better than the place down the street, you can charge more and keep volume and be profitable. if you just want to blast out a 99 cent generic cheese burger, the customer will eat at whatever cheeseburger place is closest, he will not seek your establishment.

McDonalds is one of only two stocks in the Dow that went up last year.

[phragle]

mostly because they are the only place in my neighborhood with a 99 cent value menu :)

[Sea-Dated]

Unions were great in their day but their day has passed. File bankruptcy, get out of the union contracts, and restructure. The company will come back stronger and more profitable than ever......

Oh and Fraggle, your an idiot.....:sifone::rofl:


The scariest part is that the government is now making decision for publicly held companies in America. Sounds like socialism to me......

[LaughingCat]

I don't get it. GM has been extending lines of credit for years, never does anything to improve their business model, begs the government for money and they use our tax dollars to stay afloat. Finally, someone is saying "enough". If you want to keep your company alive on the government cheese, you better come to us with more than, "hey, just going to keep doing the same thing and we'll sell more cars in the future."

I don't like that the government doing anything like this, but finally someone is showing these begging companies that coming to the government for bail-outs is serious stuff. Call it what anyone wants, this is not Socialism. Socialism is when the government seizes PROFITABLE businesses to enrich themselves. It is not when the government helps pathetic dying businesses delay the inevitable. The government isn't approaching these companies. It's the hypocritical Republican business leaders who are lining up to beg the government for help.
The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

(Many of the banks admit they didn't need the money and want to give it back.)

If you company is not dying, they're not coming to take you over. That's what they do in Russia and Venezuela. Not here. So quit acting like the paranoid, anarchist militia neighbors of the Unabomber.

Someone name one profitable strong company either the Bush admin or Obama admin have seized and I will admit I'm worng. Otherwise, I recommend everyone get their encyclopedias out and stop towing the line for the blowhard pundits and their mis-use of terminologies.

If you are a small government, fiscal conservative who is upset about the level of government involvement, I have one thing to say. . . "welcome to the Independent party. Republicans abandoned you for the religious right years ago."

[Ratickle]

I don't get it. GM has been extending lines of credit for years, never does anything to improve their business model, begs the government for money and they use our tax dollars to stay afloat. Finally, someone is saying "enough". If you want to keep your company alive on the government cheese, you better come to us with more than, "hey, just going to keep doing the same thing and we'll sell more cars in the future."

I don't like that the government doing anything like this, but finally someone is showing these begging companies that coming to the government for bail-outs is serious stuff. Call it what anyone wants, this is not Socialism. Socialism is when the government seizes PROFITABLE businesses to enrich themselves. It is not when the government helps pathetic dying businesses delay the inevitable. The government isn't approaching these companies. It's the hypocritical Republican business leaders who are lining up to beg the government for help.
The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

(Although, many of the banks admit they didn't need the money and want to give it back.)

If you company is not dying, they're not coming to take you over. That's what they do in Russia and Venezuela. Not here. So quit acting like the paranoid, anarchist militia neighbors of the Unabomber.

Someone name one profitable strong company either the Bush admin or Obama admin have seized and I will admit I'm worng. Otherwise, I recommend everyone get their encyclopedias out and stop towing the lione for the blowhard pundits and their mis-use of terminologies.

If you are a small government, fiscal conservative who is upset about the level of government involvement, I have one thing to say. . . "welcome to the Independent party. Republicans abandoned you for the religious right years ago."

I like it....:sifone:

[Von Bongo]

Someone name one profitable strong company either the Bush admin or Obama admin have seized and I will admit I'm worng.

JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo, US Bank...all profitable companies that were forced to give prefered shares of the company to the US government, pay an above market dividend on the shares and the Government has a say in what management gets paid and how the company can recognize top performing employees something a board of directors normally does in a capitalistic Republic...How am I doing? Sounds a lot like socialism to me.

[LaughingCat]

Ummm, not really. The original TARP deal was set with almost no restrictions. Many banks either didn't want to participate or didn't need to. The Treasury needed them to participate so that the program would not simply highlight bad bank and cause a run.

Subsequently, Congress added provisions for executive pay and such that have repulsed the strong banks. Those companies are all vying to return the money now that the rules have been changed. They were not seized by the government. Huge difference. Again, check the definition of socialism.

[LaughingCat]

We need to all operate on the correct page here so we can work the problem and identify the solution. . and how we are going to profit from it. Blowhards like Limbaugh, Olberman, Hannity, Beck, NY Times columnists, etc do NOT know what they are talking about and are stirring way too much noise just to be heard.

Let's focus people.

[Ms PatriYacht]

[QUOTE=Sea-Dated;166845]Unions were great in their day but their day has passed. File bankruptcy, get out of the union contracts, and restructure. The company will come back stronger and more profitable than ever......
QUOTE]

Ok so all they have to do is just get out of union contracts and they will
be strong, isn't life so simple:rofl:

The union could have worked for no pay for several months and it would not have made a bit of difference. Why so many of you think the ONLY, or at least the major reason for GM's problem is the unions is beyond me:dupe:

The union did not design the cars

The union did not decide to pay little attention to their car line up in favor of putting all their efforts into SUV's and trucks

The union did not make the decision to invent a needless new brand called Saturn.

The union did not make the decision to take on Hummer.

The unions did not make the financial decisions to buy or invest in money losing foreign car companies.

The union had nothing to do with the price of gas rising to close to $4.00 a gallon, or the banking catastrophe, or record unemployment that caused purchasing of just about everything to come to a screeching halt.

Union wages have been frozen for several years and new workers which are rarely hired are not receiving the same benefits as the guys of old, but that does not matter since most of you seem to still live in the past, when it comes to this subject:nopity: But in your defense why else would you think differently since GM seems to love to let the public bash their union workers, it's nice that that they think so well of them that they have created the illusion that they make close to $100.00 an hour. Teachers have unions and so does the government. So why when their wages are talked about do the schools not lump the cost of all their retires into the current teachers hourly pay. Of course when Obama's answer to health care takes affect and we have socialized medicine, we will not get the care that people get now so the legacy costs are bound to go down since we will not live as long.

The biggest reason GM and every other big company including Toyota, Nissan and Honda are having trouble is lack of sales. No matter how much a budget is trimmed if you are not selling stuff it does not matter. Have you seen the price of milk lately, today Kroger has it advertised for 1.59 a gallon, last week I got three gallons free because I bought three boxes of some Quaker Oat bars that were also on sale. I got Coke on sale for $3.00 a twelve pack and it came with two free boxes of Ritz crackers. I have never seen sales like what is taking place now, it's because NO one is buying unless they have to, and to sell something you have to discount it like never before.

A lot of you seem to think that workers love being in the job bank, being paid for nothing, sitting around like fat slobs collecting pay. Maybe you think that way since so many of you sit around at your jobs being paid while spending most of your day posting crap on the internet. Do you even know the reason why the program was created in the first place. Do you really think the union wants workers paid to not work. Do you know how many jobs a program like that has kept here in the United States. In fact some of you management big wigs might only been employed now because of the job banks. Just think if GM and the other large companies closed or downsized as many plants here in the states as they would have liked to, what might have happened to you if you had a business near one or provided a service or a product to them or someone one that supplied them. Companies like GM think twice about getting rid of a worker, or closing a plant if they know they will have to pay a wage. Closing a plant is a trickle down affect and regardless if you are a doctor, dentist, insurance agent, a hairdresser, or a waitress your life can be greatly effected each time a job get sent elsewhere. I am sure you will continue to say that you have to be competitive, well when does it stop, to me prices seem very competitive yet people are still not buying, if our country continues to loose jobs at this rate nothing will be cheap enough:(:(


On the topic of the thread like so much of the Obama agenda, actions are done to fast. Wagoner was not a bad CEO and unfortunately forcing his resignation now will create a lot of inner turmoil and restructuring down time that GM can not afford.

[Ms PatriYacht]

We need to all operate on the correct page here so we can work the problem and identify the solution. . and how we are going to profit from it. Blowhards like Limbaugh, Olberman, Hannity, Beck, NY Times columnists, etc do NOT know what they are talking about and are stirring way too much noise just to be heard.

Let's focus people.

you've got to be kidding, thankfully there are still some voices of reason that are watching and reporting what is going on. Of course if Obama and his cronies have their way what we hear on radio will soon be dramatically altered. :mad:

[RLJ676]

It seems to me that there was something fundamentally wrong in the way GM was run in the past ten years. Ford is in better shape than the other two because it has been on a serious cost cutting program for years.

My guess is that Wagoner offered up more of the "same old, same old" instead of the brutal cost cutting that is needed.

It's going to be very interesting to see who gets the job, that's if they can find someone that wants it.


The ONLY real reason Ford is in better shape right now is they mortgaged every single asset they could in 06, which created a sizable reserve.

Their cash burn rate has been worse than GM's for the past month's, despite being the smaller company. Structure and cost wise they are ahead in some areas, but behind in others (I have first hand experience with both companies). If they hadn't borrowed every penny they could when they did, they'd be in the same boat right now. Similarly, had GM or Chrysler done the same, they would most likely be lasting much longer right now as well.

[sledge]

Ummm, not really. The original TARP deal was set with almost no restrictions. Many banks either didn't want to participate or didn't need to. The Treasury needed them to participate so that the program would not simply highlight bad bank and cause a run.

Subsequently, Congress added provisions for executive pay and such that have repulsed the strong banks. Those companies are all vying to return the money now that the rules have been changed. They were not seized by the government. Huge difference. Again, check the definition of socialism.


So what wiktionary definition suits the scenario where government forces a company to "participate", changes the rules midstream, and then refuses to let participants give the money back? Perhaps you should follow your own advice and read what Wiki has to say on Socialism. There's a difference between socialism and nationalization. The gov't isn't nationalizing, but it sure borders on socializing.

[sledge]

Ok so all they have to do is just get out of union contracts and they will be strong, isn't life so simple
...
...
...

A bit of hypocrisy here. The UAW won't allow the hiring of new workers at lower wages so how can automakers reduce their costs? The jobs bank "saved jobs" but if the workers aren't doing anything, how can automakers reduce their costs? When an automaker wants to shut down an un-profitable product line or factory, the union always wants some continued concession. How can the automakers reduce their costs?

Labor unions have always been contentious bullies with an entitlement mindset. The only concession offered by the UAW so far has been "ok, so you can delay by a year the $10 BILLION cash payment for our retired workers." They don't want lower wage workers entering the system because that means less money to pay for the retirees (see Social Security funding problems). They don't want to reduce their workforce because that means less workers contributing to pay for the retirees.

You're absolutely right that today's immediate issue is the lack of sales. What do most companies do when sales are down? They reduce costs, including labor. But automakers can't easily or quickly reduce their labor costs. And they're still on the hook for all the non-producing retirees. So they're between a rock and a hard place. And the union still refuses to bend.

I wonder how Saturn would've worked if the UAW wasn't involved.
UAW Ousts Saturn Union Leader known for cooperative approach
...(Bennett) ...was swept from office, ... by opponents who favor a more traditional and more confrontational approach with management.

[LaughingCat]

So what wiktionary definition suits the scenario where government forces a company to "participate", changes the rules midstream, and then refuses to let participants give the money back? Perhaps you should follow your own advice and read what Wiki has to say on Socialism. There's a difference between socialism and nationalization. The gov't isn't nationalizing, but it sure borders on socializing.

I'm not sure. Will have to ask Bush and Paulson what they were thinking. Must be listed under the PretendingToBeConservativeButReallyaNazi-pedia.

[Ms PatriYacht]

A bit of hypocrisy here. The UAW won't allow the hiring of new workers at lower wages so how can automakers reduce their costs?

Hire new workers, why would they need to do that since they keep laying people off or talking them into early retirement, and the few new workers that have been hired have been hired at a lower wage and benefit scale, I am surprised you don't know that.


The jobs bank "saved jobs" but if the workers aren't doing anything, how can automakers reduce their costs? When an automaker wants to shut down an un-profitable product line or factory, the union always wants some continued concession. How can the automakers reduce their costs? There are 1,000's of ways to reduce cost and many of them have been done, and there are lots of options, labor is not the only cost they have.

Labor unions have always been contentious bullies with an entitlement mindset. The only concession offered by the UAW so far has been "ok, so you can delay by a year the $10 BILLION cash payment for our retired workers." Completely untrue, they have gone over 3 years with out pay increases, except for the COLA ,which was just taken back, and health benefits have been reduced and like I have said over and over, new hires get a differnt package.

They don't want lower wage workers entering the system because that means less money to pay for the retirees (see Social Security funding problems). See above They don't want to reduce their workforce because that means less workers contributing to pay for the retirees.

You're absolutely right that today's immediate issue is the lack of sales. What do most companies do when sales are down? They reduce costs, including labor. But automakers can't easily or quickly reduce their labor costs. And they're still on the hook for all the non-producing retirees. So they're between a rock and a hard place. And the union still refuses to bend.

I wonder how Saturn would've worked if the UAW wasn't involved.

Did they even need Saturn in the first place

[Von Bongo]

Ummm, not really. The original TARP deal was set with almost no restrictions. Many banks either didn't want to participate or didn't need to. The Treasury needed them to participate so that the program would not simply highlight bad bank and cause a run.

Subsequently, Congress added provisions for executive pay and such that have repulsed the strong banks. Those companies are all vying to return the money now that the rules have been changed. They were not seized by the government. Huge difference. Again, check the definition of socialism.

Ahh..but there's the rub, first no restrictions, now there are and the treasury wont let them return the money. One component of Socialism is the " fair or egalitarian method of compensation"

Well the government is sure setting some compensation levels at the top and telling the companies, no jets, no parties, no fun of any kind, yes you are profitable and don't need or want our money but yet we're going to tell you what you can and can't do and you are going to pay us a dividend that is 5 times or more what you pay your common stock holders.

Call it what you want but it's bull**** that the government is involved. The changes with TARP insured that no one on the private side is going to want to be part of TALF for fear that the govenment will change the rules.

Obama and his minions have assured a long and deep recession. Why do you think the market tumbles EVERY time he or Geitner speaks?

[LaughingCat]

Debating policy and economic issues on this board is like challenging to a cockfight and everyone is holding boners with pants at their ankles.

[Ratickle]

Debating policy and economic issues on this board is like challenging to a cockfight and everyone is holding boners with pants at their ankles.

:)

Not sure that's the way I would have worded it......:sifone:

[Wrinkleface]

A bit of hypocrisy here. The UAW won't allow the hiring of new workers at lower wages so how can automakers reduce their costs? The jobs bank "saved jobs" but if the workers aren't doing anything, how can automakers reduce their costs? When an automaker wants to shut down an un-profitable product line or factory, the union always wants some continued concession. How can the automakers reduce their costs?

Labor unions have always been contentious bullies with an entitlement mindset. The only concession offered by the UAW so far has been "ok, so you can delay by a year the $10 BILLION cash payment for our retired workers." They don't want lower wage workers entering the system because that means less money to pay for the retirees (see Social Security funding problems). They don't want to reduce their workforce because that means less workers contributing to pay for the retirees.

You're absolutely right that today's immediate issue is the lack of sales. What do most companies do when sales are down? They reduce costs, including labor. But automakers can't easily or quickly reduce their labor costs. And they're still on the hook for all the non-producing retirees. So they're between a rock and a hard place. And the union still refuses to bend.

I wonder how Saturn would've worked if the UAW wasn't involved.

A couple personal stories about the jobs bank!! Up close & in my face!!
#1..1 of by best friends grow'n up that I bowled w/ 4 years, partied w/ etc etc!! Got a job in Flint at Buick, & I believe got into a skilled trades position. He worked 4 can't remember how many years w/ ?able work ethics, in late, out early, at the pu during work hours, etc, by his own admission! Entered the JB & was in it 4 years! All that was asked of him was 2 do some community service, he did Jack chit, he just would not go, then he was in my office once tell'n me he got called 2 go move vehicles from 1 plant 2 another or something like that, he went 1 day & never went back again!! 2 the best I know all this X he was get'n something like 90 plus % of his normal wages & full bennys!! 4 DOING NOTHING 4 YEARS!!! Then he faded off into some ?able work comp/retirement thing & as far as I know he will B get'n paid the rest of his life!! He is about 50! Now don't get me wrong, I am glad because he had dental ins. during all that & currently & still comes 2 C me every 6 months! But on the other hand if he wasn't/ isn't drink'n a 5th or more of booze a day, he could pay 4 some dental work even if he didn't have ins!!!!

#2...1 of my absolute current best friends/next door neighbor, 2nd name on my will!!! He worked 4 a plant in Lansing & about 3-4 years ago entered the JB!! All that was asked of him was 2 go 2 some "place" where he checked in 4 supposedly 8 hours! He could sleep, watch tv, play cards, play w/ himself, play w/ his friends, ETC!!! That is all that was required of him 2 make I believe 90 plus % of his normal wages & full bennys!! In other words, DO NOTHING!! Let the games begin!! He & some of his buds would sign in & bug out & go fish'n, golf'n, 2 the pub, etc!!! 1 day their supervisor sez U better take it easy & stay around cuz somebody that apparently was play'n by the rules complained about these people that were not!! My buddy sez he & his friends Were gunna find out who did this 2 them & deal w/'m or something like that!! R U kidding me?? His own wife would tell him 2 shut up when he would start piss'n bout this situation cuz she knew how FK'n bad it was!! He cruised thru this period right into retirement at mid 50's!! Do I want 2 C people loose there jobs, NO, it does affect me heavely just south of Flint when people loose insurance, do I think a company can pay somebody 70-100k plus bennys 4 do'n NOTHING, NO!! Especially when alot treat the system like I just explained!! Just the Facts, Jack!!:(

[Ratickle]

Along those same lines, I have a friend who clocks in early by 15 minutes every day so he gets third shift premium for working first. The entire shift.......

[Sea-Dated]

I have a couple family members that either worked for unions or are currently working for unions and they say the same thing I do. Unions do not work any more. But of course they have good work ethics and believe in a days pay for a days work.

One of them was actually told by his union boss to work slower, he ws getting too much done and it was pizzing off the rest of the slackers and making them look bad. Desides the union said only so much work can be done in an hour and that is all he was allowed to do.

[Ms PatriYacht]

Tracy who cares what they do while they are in the job bank, the reason they are there is because the company choose to send work someplace cheaper, the fact is most would rather be at a job rather than a job bank, maybe they are pissed. Yes I know everyone feels that the companies should be competitive so to achieve that most of the jobs should be sent out of MI, I doubt that will help you practice. Now that there are no job banks don't be surprised if less and less of the people in your community are still working.

Paul where does your friend work, I know at the GM facilities that the only way you can clock in early and even get paid for that early time is if you are asked by your supervisor to do so. Also where Ian works if you are .10 of an hour late, you are forced to take a half vacation day.

We all know slack offs, union or non union. Heck my girlfriends father was a big wig at American Motors back in the day, he was steeling and cheating the company and they fired him but he could have been prosecuted if they wished. For every union slack off story I can tell you a management slack off story. In fact there are many members of chat style web sites that make as many as 100 posts in a single work day while on the payroll of a company they don't own, I wonder how many unproductive hours that adds up to. In the defense of the guys stuck in the job bank all day, they were put there, they did not choose to be unproductive. I would venture to say that if this or other boards relied on union workers to post during the day there would be very little activity

[Tommy Gun]

shhhhhhhh... listen carefully...can you hear the golden parachute ruffling in the breeze??

I heard $22mm this a.m.

[Ratickle]

Tracy who cares what they do while they are in the job bank, the reason they are there is because the company choose to send work someplace cheaper, the fact is most would rather be at a job rather than a job bank, maybe they are pissed. Yes I know everyone feel that the companies should be competitive to achieve that most of the jobs should be sent out of MI then, I doubt that will help you practice. Now that there are no job banks don't be surprised if less and less of the people in your community are still working.

Paul where does your friend work, I know at the GM facilities that the only way you can clock in early and even get paid for that time is if you are asked by your supervisor to do so. Also where Ian works if you are .10 of an hour late, you are forced to take a half vacation day.

And for every union slack off story I can tell you a management slack off story. In fact there are many members of chat style web sites that make as many as 100 posts in a single work day while on the payroll of a company they don't own, I wonder how many unproductive hours that adds up to. I would venture to say that if this or other boards relied on union workers to post during the day there would be very little activity

He is a set-up guy and therefore kinda gets to do what he wants...

[Ratickle]

I heard $22mm this a.m.

Is that all.

I still say he should have been gone a long time ago.

[Sunsation96]

If Obama calls the office,I'am not going to answer the phone.I would hate to loss my job.

Good call on that one:rofl:

[Wrinkleface]

Tracy who cares what they do while they are in the job bank, the reason they are there is because the company choose to send work someplace cheaper, the fact is most would rather be at a job rather than a job bank, maybe they are pissed. Yes I know everyone feels that the companies should be competitive so to achieve that most of the jobs should be sent out of MI, I doubt that will help you practice. Now that there are no job banks don't be surprised if less and less of the people in your community are still working.

Paul where does your friend work, I know at the GM facilities that the only way you can clock in early and even get paid for that early time is if you are asked by your supervisor to do so. Also where Ian works if you are .10 of an hour late, you are forced to take a half vacation day.

We all know slack offs, union or non union. Heck my girlfriends father was a big wig at American Motors back in the day, he was steeling and cheating the company and they fired him but he could have been prosecuted if they wished. For every union slack off story I can tell you a management slack off story. In fact there are many members of chat style web sites that make as many as 100 posts in a single work day while on the payroll of a company they don't own, I wonder how many unproductive hours that adds up to. In the defense of the guys stuck in the job bank all day, they were put there, they did not choose to be unproductive. I would venture to say that if this or other boards relied on union workers to post during the day there would be very little activity

Donna, my point was all that was asked of these people, my dog could, they could not follow simple rules or requests & get upset when confronted w /that issue!! All while making great money & bennys while B'n requested 2 do basically nothing!! Clear & simple!!

[Ratickle]

The main point is these Union Contracts were okay when there wes no competition. Now there is competition, like it or not. I have 4 Chevy's and four chevy motors in my boats. I am a Chevy guy, will not own an import.

When the competition started to erode the sales of USA vehicles, and the Unions refused to give concessions, even demanded more and that's when job banks were created because they were losing their jobs to imports, the union started losing jobs and the US auto makers started losing money. Union payrolls are down over 70% and they still don't get it.

GM has lost money on every car sold in the last 6 years. They have only made money on SUV's and pickups. In 2006 they had record sales and lost around $2 billion .

GM Reports 2006 Financial Results

* Record revenue of $207 billion in 2006
* 2006 reported net loss of $2.0 billion - improvement of $8.4 billion

Don't tell me the only issue is too few of sales. The year before, the loss was over $10 billion. Third highest revenue year ever.

Since the Unions, and management, didn't get it, they only have one way out now, file Chapter 11 under a pre-determined set of basic rules and start fresh.

Here's 2007, just in case you're wondering, (compared to Toyota).

2007 Profit/Loss GM vs. Toyota: Same # Cars

GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles

GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)


And 2008 Prelims, With a snide comment.....

GM announced a preliminary statement of loss for the fourth quarter of 2008: $9.6 billion dollars, adjusted to a net loss of $5.9 billion. That brings the year's figures to a reported net loss of $30.9 billion

If you think that tossing another 10 or 20 billion dollars on this fire is going to put out the flames, you are in line for a seat on the GM Board of Directors.

The added cost of benefits and pensions plus benefits per GM vehicle is currently about $3800 PER VEHICLE more than Toyota's. Still not a profit, but gettin closer.

My entire point is, they can't make it without the $3800 per vehicle going away, or, making imports illegal or cost prohibitive. That's not the only thing they need to do, but it's one of them.


And, Donna, I have nothing against the hard workers at GM or anywhere else. But, you cannot tell me that Ian hasn't seen the Union protect the lazy and commented on it. I have a very good friend who may lose his job in Saginaw, but if they don't do something to change NOW, it will all be gone.

[Wrinkleface]

Maybe not an exact analogy, but if I loose a family of patients, 4 whatever reason, they move, they don't like my Cologne, whatever, am I gauranteed I will fill those spots, NO! Sure I post during the day while waiting 4 x-rays or gaps between patients, or no show patients, etc!! Not only do I not make $ if my hands R not wet & in somebodys mouth but I am actually go'n backwards fast, multiple girls on the clock, mal practice ins, office ins., work comp, utilities, lab bills, prop taxes & on & on!! Nobody pays me 2 do nothing! Nobody wants people 2 B work'n w/ dental ins. anymore than me!

[Von Bongo]

What do you call the House Voting today giving Gietner the ability to limit the pay of 500 bank CEOs & Management 99% of which are profitable? Before it was only the banks that took $5 billion or more, now it applies to all the banks.

Getting hard to defend isn't it. thank god our founding fathers had two houses, at least the senate is doing what it's supposed to do, at least to this point.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/01/house.bonus.bill/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The House of Representatives voted Wednesday to give the Treasury Department the power to ban future "unreasonable and excessive" compensation at companies receiving federal bailout money.


The bill would give Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner greater say on executive compensation.

The Pay for Performance Act of 2009, which passed by a vote of 237-171, would empower Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner to define what constitutes reasonable compensation, as well as to ban bonuses not based on performance standards. Geithner's guidelines would apply to companies receiving assistance from the government's Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP.

[Offshoredrillin]

Maybe not an exact analogy, but if I loose a family of patients, 4 whatever reason, they move, they don't like my Cologne, whatever, am I gauranteed I will fill those spots, NO! Sure I post during the day while waiting 4 x-rays or gaps between patients, or no show patients, etc!! Not only do I not make $ if my hands R not wet & in somebodys mouth but I am actually go'n backwards fast, multiple girls on the clock, mal practice ins, office ins., work comp, utilities, lab bills, prop taxes & on & on!! Nobody pays me 2 do nothing! Nobody wants people 2 B work'n w/ dental ins. anymore than me!

Its a shame more people dont understand this. I recently had a dealership go to another installer that undercut me by 275 dollars per car. That installer isn't a legitimate business entity and carries no insurance, and works out of his spare bedroom of his condo. Ok it's a free enterprise, but I highlighted everything to the dealer and let them know what they got with me and told them like themselves, it costs money to run my business even when I'm not installing. I carry 1 million dollar shop keepers insurance and use premium films that last the longest in the industry, they wanted cheap, well the brand new 95K 750 I BMW that the guy did looks like hell after 2 weeks and just sitting on the sales floor, he CUT the paint and had to do the car twice. How can he make any profit?
GM needs to file and restructure, they wouldn't even miss a day, get rid of the union contracts and take the guys making 50 bucks an hour offer them 30 and benefits that the company controls NOT the union. they would only lose one shift, if that and overnight would be right back to being competitive, and then release the camaro and sales will skyrocket. when I left the teamsters in 99, UPS was paying 13000.00 per year to the teamsters for my benefits. I bought the same benefits from NASE for 220 per month. Sorry but unions have outlived their usefulness by being greedy.

[cuda]

One of them was actually told by his union boss to work slower, he ws getting too much done and it was pizzing off the rest of the slackers and making them look bad. Desides the union said only so much work can be done in an hour and that is all he was allowed to do.


I had a guy that worked for me, that told another guy to slow down, it was making him look bad.

Needless to say, he no longer works for me, because there is no union to protect his lazy azz from losing his job.
Better that he look bad, than me look broke.

[Ratickle]

What do you call the House Voting today giving Gietner the ability to limit the pay of 500 bank CEOs & Management 99% of which are profitable? Before it was only the banks that took $5 billion or more, now it applies to all the banks.

Getting hard to defend isn't it. thank god our founding fathers had two houses, at least the senate is doing what it's supposed to do, at least to this point.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/01/house.bonus.bill/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The House of Representatives voted Wednesday to give the Treasury Department the power to ban future "unreasonable and excessive" compensation at companies receiving federal bailout money.


The bill would give Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner greater say on executive compensation.

The Pay for Performance Act of 2009, which passed by a vote of 237-171, would empower Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner to define what constitutes reasonable compensation, as well as to ban bonuses not based on performance standards. Geithner's guidelines would apply to companies receiving assistance from the government's Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP.

I actually have no problem with it. That CEO's think they can take taxpayer money, and still live the style they used too except on our dime, is absolute bull. If they don't want strict oversight, don't take the money.

[Ratickle]

Sorry but unions have outlived their usefulness by being greedy.

I'll make one small disagreement. Large unions have outlived their usefulness, or even place in society. Small, local company unions, are usually an asset to a company. They usually make it easy to improve almost all aspects of a business. It's when some bonehead small group can shutdown a worldwide multi-billion corporation with no repercussions that it is absurd, and should be illegal.

5 years ago 400,000 union employees at Chrysler and GM. Today, 120,000 and sinking fast. And the union management still doesn't get it. "We've given up enough." The stupid F's even had a strike. American Axle shut GM's most profitable plants down. Now they're ready to file.

It was the Union President of the Steelmills, I believe, who said "I would rather have one union employee making $100 per hour than 1000 union employees making $10 per hour." He got neither. (My Dad was a steel worker).

[Knot 4 Me]

I grew up in a Union family (UAW Local 974). I've got no use for big Unions as they existed in the late 70's through today. They damn near crippled our family on several occasions. I was proud of my Dad when he crossed the line in '92 and finished his career out working for the company. Had he not crossed the line, he would still be working at age 68 instead of being 6 years retired now. Like he said in '92, "Son, I'm just a whore to the company and the Union. Who pays me more?".

[Ms PatriYacht]

Paul are you suggesting that they take away the retiree benefits, unfortunately that's really where the bulk of the costs are. Current workers pay and benefits are less then 10% of the cost of the car, and are on par with Foreign automakers. Since 03 wages and benefits have been greatly reduced on the news this morning they said by something like 59%, I am not sure where they got that number, but I will admit is seems high. Why do you think they can make a profit on a truck but not a car?

There are no union workers that make $50.00 an hour. The highest paid workers make about $35.00, in some companies some of those jobs might even be considered engineers. These are jobs that take years of schooling and training to learn. Ian designs complicated multi million dollar stamping dies on a computer program that has taken many college classes and years of training (not at the same pay) to learn. Other types of jobs that pay close to the top are master electricians, think of the level of skill and knowledge that is required to wire large production equipment safely so the place does not burn down or blow up. If I was working there I certainly would not want to trust that job to someone that was willing to work for $10.00 an hour. In my sales job I have often gone on to the production floor to meet with engineers and purchasing people to discuss problems they are having with a piece of equipment my filter goes in. In almost every instance an hourly worker, is called in to our conversation because they are the only one that really understand how the equipment operates, these are skill sets that I think are grossly underestimated by the general populous.

I am not really pro union and neither is Ian, we are to conservative for that. I am for treating workers fairly and for paying them a decent wage for their skill level and for not reneging on a promise made to people 50 years ago when they started working. I also can't help but defend the fact that there are so many smart and skilled workers out there that are almost despised because of of this country's mind set about what they are worth. And most of those views are based on information over ten years old, and the fact that they have heard of an hourly worker slacking off. So now it's no longer cool to be blue collar and frankly that scares me for the future of our country. It's probably because just about every school age kid hears you have to go to college no matter what. I heard it just the other day, someone said I told my kid I don't care what you study just get that degree. So now there are droves of kids in universities studying who knows what from liberal professors just to get a degree.

The main reason the United States rose to be one of the most powerful nations is because we produced things. But now the rest of the world has caught up and can do it cheaper and often without the restrictions that make it a level playing field. So what do we do, I guess we build factories in other countries and put those people to work. Then we force the people still here to take reductions in pay and benefits, which for someone in the 40's with fixed expenses does nothing to help our economy. And on top of it less and less of our young people are interested in doing the backbone work because they are in college trying to get a degree, heaven forbid they would learn a trade and become a lowly hourly worker.

Our country is our own worst enemy, we build other countries up with aide and technology support and then gobble up as much of their cheap imports as we can. Yet we can't drill for new oil, and have such stringent environmental polices that it's hard to run a large industrial plant without spending millions to insure we don't speed up Global Warming. Now on top of the auto companies problems, they are being forced to spend billions they don't have to develop cars most of us don't want to drive, just so we can achieve better gas mileage and not use our precious energy that supposedly there is a severe lack of. I better quit before I continue to ramble any longer:ack2:

[boatme]

Simple question

Not related to engineers or degreed individuals

Why should a guy (or Girl) working on a stamping press make $30 an hour and big benifits when
a nurse,emt,teacher,pilot (comuter plane) does not make that much money per hour ??

[Ratickle]

Paul are you suggesting that they take away the retiree benefits, unfortunately that's really where the bulk of the costs are.

Unfortunately, yes. Those over 62 will get 80% of it covered by medicare/medicaid, at our (taxpayer) expense. They will lose Dental, etc. And they will get to keep 80% of their pension I believe. I think the balance of the problem can be solved with the two tier wage structures they are using.

However, that is the only way they will survive long term.


When Clinton signed NAFTA and gave China Most Favored Trading Status, they knew this would happen. They also knew it would take some years because companies don't automatically fold when new competition takes their markets away. So, we were extremely prosperous for a few years because we all could buy stuff cheaply and still make what we were making. But then, nothing else can happen except what's going on. Either our standard of living gets lowered to match theirs, or theirs comes up to meet ours. We will meet somewhere in the middle, I think....

[Ratickle]

Simple question

Not related to engineers or degreed individuals

Why should a guy (or Girl) working on a stamping press make $30 an hour and big benifits when
a nurse,emt,teacher,pilot (comuter plane) does not make that much money per hour ??

It happened for one simple reason. The union wanted it too. No free markets until the imports got to build cars here with no excise tax penalties. Free markets are shaking it out very hard now. Too hard almost.

[Ratickle]

Why do you think they can make a profit on a truck but not a car?



No free market competition until very recently. That's when they had to lower prices to compete with the new SUV's from everyone and the new Full Sized pickups from a few...

[Von Bongo]

That CEO's think they can take taxpayer money, and still live the style they used too except on our dime, is absolute bull. If they don't want strict oversight, don't take the money.

Now lets turn that around, I assume you have a loan of some kind, house, boat, car. If not good for you! Serious.

(TARP is a LOAN, it isn't ADC, that pays the govenment $9 BILLION (best Dr. Evil voice) a year in dividends, ever wonder if you will see any of that dividend? It's taxpayer money right?)

Now again lets say you have a loan and today the bank calls and says, Mr. Ratickle, we loaned you this money a while back and until you repay it you can no longer take vacations, put your kids in soccer, take your boat out on the weekends. No more living like a king until you pay us back. Oh by the way if you want to pay us back we are going to look at your financial status to make sure you won't be under undo pressure, we wouldn't want your savings to suffer by paying us back so, we may or may not let you pay off early, we'll let you know. Remember only to work and back until we're paid off! Sorry but if you didn't want these restrictions you shouldn't have borrowed our money.

Sound absurd? Welcome to TARP.

My closing thought. $9 billion a year is being repaid in the form of a dividend to the government for the TARP funds, thats assuming that $199 billion has been loaned out of the $700 billion that was pledged. remember how worked up everyone was over $700 BILLION (My best Dr. Evil voice). So far not even 1/3rd has been used and on a good note the remaining 2/3rds likely won't be.

Mr. Taxpayer, why are't you upset over of the $9 billion a year you won't see a dime? You raise holy hell about AIG paying $200 million of payments that the government knew were comming but didn't tell you about. But a sum 45 times that amount will be paid yearly FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS that is a return on the TAXPAYERS loan to the banks. You won't see a dime and you won't so much as question why? I guess it's OK for the government to steal from you, at least you're used to it.

[Ratickle]

There are no union workers that make $50.00 an hour.

True, the avarage Toyota worker makes more per hour than the average GM worker. The benefits for the average GM worker is what makes the expense to the company too great to compete apples to apples.

I believe Toyotas is about $11 per hour additional cost and GM's is about $23 per hour additional cost.

[Ratickle]

Now lets turn that around, I assume you have a loan of some kind, house, boat, car. If not good for you! Serious.

(TARP is a LOAN, it isn't ADC, that pays the govenment $9 BILLION (best Dr. Evil voice) a year in dividends, ever wonder if you will see any of that dividend? It's taxpayer money right?)

Now again lets say you have a loan and today the bank calls and says, Mr. Ratickle, we loaned you this money a while back and until you repay it you can no longer take vacations, put your kids in soccer, take your boat out on the weekends. No more living like a king until you pay us back. Oh by the way if you want to pay us back we are going to look at your financial status to make sure you won't be under undo pressure, we wouldn't want your savings to suffer by paying us back so, we may or may not let you pay off early, we'll let you know. Remember only to work and back until we're paid off! Sorry but if you didn't want these restrictions you shouldn't have borrowed our money.

Sound absurd? Welcome to TARP.

My closing thought. $9 billion a year is being repaid in the form of a dividend to the government for the TARP funds, thats assuming that $199 billion has been loaned out of the $700 billion that was pledged. remember how worked up everyone was over $700 BILLION (My best Dr. Evil voice). So far not even 1/3rd has been used and on a good note the remaining 2/3rds likely won't be.

Mr. Taxpayer, why are't you upset over of the $9 billion a year you won't see a dime? You raise holy hell about AIG paying $200 million of payments that the government knew were comming but didn't tell you about. But a sum 45 times that amount will be paid yearly FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS that is a return on the TAXPAYERS loan to the banks. You won't see a dime and you won't so much as question why? I guess it's OK for the government to steal from you, at least you're used to it.

If I miss one payment, or go apply for an additional loan, etc, they will do exactly that. I have a friend who's house was foreclosed on because he moved. Didn't miss one single payment. Every home loan has a clause about your principle place of residence.

I do agree with you that the rules should have been put in place first, not modified after the fact. But, no one thought they would be dumb enough to pay out bonuses, go to parties, have vacation trips, on a loan that essentially kept them out of bankruptcy. They could not have gotten those loans from any other lender. Dumb on their part, now they all have to pay for the idiocy of a few....

You have someone foreclose and then go try to get a loan, see how well you do. Most banks will put a controller in your business office to approve every cent.

[LaughingCat]

I think my IQ just dropped 10 points. . . and that's just from skimming this thread.


:rofl:

[Ms PatriYacht]

Paul, Ian has seen lazy and incompetent workers both in union and management positions and most are protected by their bosses or the system. Don't think only union workers are protected, management at GM has always be quick to protect their own whenever possible. Often in Ian's job to proceed to the next step in a design he needs information from a manager. Unfortunately it is not un common that he sits idle because he can't get the information he needs in a timely manner. I am sure there are many reasons for this, but very often it is not because they are so overworked, they slack off as well. He often complains about how frustrating it is to sit and wait while he could be working on the project, he also seems to regularly get wrong information or direction because of the lack of understanding the manager has about the die projects he is managing. He also has had instances where he argued his point on a design issue to no avail with his boss and then was forced to go ahead and design something that he knew would not work. On a few occasions this has caused problems with a die that was put into production and the changes that were needed cost millions. In these instances everything is always traced back to where the problem originated and lucky for him he kept documentation. In none of these instances was a person let go, or a manager demoted. I am not posting this because Ian is so great, I am sure he does his fair share of slaking off and I am sure he has made mistakes. I post this because I am sick and tired of reading only about union workers that slack off.

[Ratickle]

Paul, Ian has seen lazy and incompetent workers both in union and management positions and most are protected by their bosses or the system. Don't think only union workers are protected, management at GM has always be quick to protect their own whenever possible. Often in Ian's job to proceed to the next step in a design he needs information from a manager. Unfortunately it is not un common that he sits idle because he can't get the information he needs in a timely manner. I am sure there are many reasons for this, but very often it is not because they are so overworked, they slack off as well. He often complains about how frustrating it is to sit and wait while he could be working on the project, he also seems to regularly get wrong information or direction because of the lack of understanding the manager has about the die projects he is managing. He also has had instances where he argued his point on a design issue to no avail with his boss and then was forced to go ahead and design something that he knew would not work. On a few occasions this has caused problems with a die that was put into production and the changes that were needed cost millions. In these instances everything is always traced back to where the problem originated and lucky for him he kept documentation. In none of these instances was a person let go, or a manager demoted. I am not posting this because Ian is so great, I am sure he does his fair share of slaking off and I am sure he has made mistakes. I post this because I am sick and tired of reading only about union workers that slack off.

I did not say only union workers, management started this mess and have done nothing to improve it. The post where I say if anyone thinks $10 or $20 billion will fix it they should be sitting on the GM board of directors is accurate. I think that's what Obama's guys told him and that's why GM's Pres is gone.

[Ms PatriYacht]

Paul
My post was in reference to the comment below that was in one of your posts. Plenty of management workers are lazy and incompetent and not only are they are often protected many are even promoted. For every bad worker there are hundreds of good ones.

And, Donna, I have nothing against the hard workers at GM or anywhere else. But, you cannot tell me that Ian hasn't seen the Union protect the lazy and commented on it. I have a very good friend who may lose his job in Saginaw, but if they don't do something to change NOW, it will all be gone.

[Ratickle]

For every bad worker there are hundreds of good ones.


I have no reason to disagree. I know at least 8 good ones and only one who uses the system.

[boatme]

I have no reason to disagree. I know at least 8 good ones and only one who uses the system.


I know the other 7 LOL

[Ms PatriYacht]

Paul that's good at least we agree a little:kiss: now I am going to do my best to stay off this thread, it's not like you all don't know my opinion by now:)
Here I am defending the non slackers when I have spent the better part of the morning being one, I gotta go do some work:willy_nilly: does anyone need a filter......

Marc *&%%++$ don't get me started:biggrinjester:

[boatme]

Donna go for it This is a GREAT discussion

I have worked for myself, or been paid on commission 95% of my life

The two times i worked for someone in the past 30 years I got financially burned both times

At least if i am going to sluff off I know I wont get paid during that time


I think 80% of the working public should be on some type of Commission or performance pay

Some would do real well, some would be in deep dog dooo

Let’s start by putting the politicians on commission Pay them for results dont pay them if they cant accomplish any givin task

[Wrinkleface]

Here I am defending the non slackers when I have spent the better part of the morning being one, I gotta go do some work:willy_nilly:



Oh yeah!!! Post'n while work'n!!!!!:26::grouphug:

[LaughingCat]

Hey. . . Look! ! ! A half-eaten twinkie

[Offshoredrillin]

was watching the news last night and a guy named Ferguson was speaking for the union, he said he "isnt giving up a nickel" "I've given enough" shame, if he is the guy in charge of bargaining, he just lost a buttload of people their jobs and probably sealed the fate of the UAW. wonder how he will feel being penniless much less nickeless.

[Ratickle]

was watching the news last night and a guy named Ferguson was speaking for the union, he said he "isnt giving up a nickel" "I've given enough" shame, if he is the guy in charge of bargaining, he just lost a buttload of people their jobs and probably sealed the fate of the UAW. wonder how he will feel being penniless much less nickeless.

I'm sure he is safe. The big UAW guys here in Grand Rapids came in and got Keeler Brass to go union. I was Plant Manager at the time. Within 3 years, completely closed and every job gone. 240 employees gone. Hed been in business over 100 years and the last year before the union had a 12% growth rate and 8.6% PBIT.:(

The organizer is still the UAW main goon in this area though.

[Blue Oval]

Tried to help out GM and rented a HHR for a week,no Fords ave. when we got there.Nice little car for a GM.

[Wrinkleface]

Tried to help out GM and rented a HHR for a week,no Fords ave. when we got there.Nice little car for a GM.

Dude, get a new shirt!!!!:26::seeya:

[Wrinkleface]

Hey. . . Look! ! ! A half-eaten twinkie

Do U know what they call the other 1/2?????












































Me neither, just seemed like there should B a joke there!!!!:26::leaving:

[cuda]

Tried to help out GM and rented a HHR for a week,no Fords ave. when we got there.Nice little car for a GM.

Hey, bring back my shower curtain!:sifone:

[Blue Oval]

Dude, get a new shirt!!!!:26::seeya:

Heidi says she likes the shirt,and thats all that matters.:sifone::sifone:

[cuda]

:)
Heidi says she likes the shirt,and thats all that matters.:sifone::sifone:

Guess so, if you don't mind your buds laughing behind your back!:26: