New American Tea Party

[Tommy Gun]

http://newamericanteaparty.com/

Mail a tea bag to the White House April 15....do it!

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

[Tony]

How about a crate full.

[ChiefApache]

This is cirrculating in an e-mail. Do you know how many tea bags will show up at the White House?:)

[phragle]

not enough.....

[DonziGirl]

My mom wants to go to this http://www.cincinnatiteaparty.org/ this weekend. She's never really been politically active before but she's getting pretty pissed off.

[Tommy Gun]

Vice President Joe Biden said during the 2008 campaign that it is patriotic for Americans to pay more in taxes. Since taking over control of Washington, the Obama Democrats have decided we should all be more "patriotic" having passed or proposed more than $5 trillion in new spending and $1.4 trillion in new taxes.

I don't know about you, but I don't believe there is anything patriotic about giving more of your hard-earned money to the government to bankroll the liberal Democrats' agenda to increase spending to record levels, change the tax code to redistribute the wealth of working families, and destroy the savings of millions of middle-class Americans.

So on this Tax Day, April 15, the Republican National Committee is asking you, along with hundreds of thousands of grassroots activists across our country, to assert a real patriotic act by sending a virtual tea bag to Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and the rest of the tax, spend and borrow Democrats. Let them know enough is enough and you don't approve of their plan to pass the largest tax hike in American history.

The $1.4 trillion in higher taxes is just the tip of the iceberg for the Democrats. The proposed cap and trade program on carbon emissions Obama wants would impose at least $646 billion in new energy taxes -- $3,100 for every American family a year. And the President wants to raise taxes on small businesses -- the very engine that provides 75% of our economic growth.

Americans will pay more in taxes this year than they will spend on food, clothing and housing combined and it is still not enough for Barack Obama and the liberal Democrats. Let them know you already pay enough in taxes by sending them a virtual tea bag by clicking the link below.

Your participation in this project is vital to holding the Obama Democrats accountable for their destructive higher tax and spending policies. Please send your virtual tea bag today. Thank you.


Sincerely,

Michael Steele
Chairman, Republican National Committee


http://teaparty.gop.com/Default.aspx

[phragle]

there is a balancing point.. between whiny *****y pessimism, and action. the scale is usually tipped to the ***** while getting bent over side, but occasionally the scales tip the other way as they did in the 60's. how much has to happen before the scale tips violently in the other direction is unknown, but it's bound to happen eventually.

[Dude! Sweet!]

There's a bunch of people in the government that I'd like to tea-bag...

[C M R]

My mom wants to go to this http://www.cincinnatiteaparty.org/ this weekend. She's never really been politically active before but she's getting pretty ****ed off.


http://taxdayteaparty.com/

Tomorrow's the big day for the tea parties. The above link will get you the time and place for your area.

They're expecting a huge turn out in Atlanta tomorrow evening. Sean Hannity will be broadcasting his show live from the Georgia State Capital.

http://www.atlantateaparty.net/

-David

[BGIII]

http://teaparty.gop.com/Default.aspx

There ought to be a douche bag as a choice.

[DonziGirl]

http://taxdayteaparty.com/

Tomorrow's the big day for the tea parties. The above link will get you the time and place for your area.

They're expecting a huge turn out in Atlanta tomorrow evening. Sean Hannity will be broadcasting his show live from the Georgia State Capital.

http://www.atlantateaparty.net/

-David


Yep. Mom is headed back out again today. Apparently they're marching down to city hall.

[Sea-Dated]

I am going to run by one after work today. There are a couple of them in Tulsa today.

[LaughingCat]

OMG, I'm f'ing cracking up. Big tea party protest in middle of downtown Tampa going on.
Chick has been standing there for over 3 hours with the following sign:

"Don't take my tax money, adopt my work ethic."

THREE HOURS PEOPLE. . . She is irony in tight mom jeans.

Please tell me these hypocritical lunatic fridgers don't represent the Republican party. I want to come back from Independent, but not while these morons are fighting for the steering wheel.

[Ratickle]

Americans will pay more in taxes this year than they will spend on food, clothing and housing combined

Sincerely,

Michael Steele
Chairman, Republican National Committee


http://teaparty.gop.com/Default.aspx

Anyone know if this is actually true?

[LaughingCat]

It may be true. But considering he is basically the Chris Rock of Politics, I'll wait for a more reputable source to give me data.

[LaughingCat]

OMFG, this is great. Fox News and CNN don't even know what this really means. He's a quote from Drudge Report:

THIS IS CNN: Anderson Cooper: 'It's hard to talk when you're teabagging'...

This is hysterical. It feels like a nationwide moron-fest. Teabaggin. . . priceless.

[Offshoredrillin]

OMG, I'm f'ing cracking up. Big tea party protest in middle of downtown Tampa going on.
Chick has been standing there for over 3 hours with the following sign:

"Don't take my tax money, adopt my work ethic."

THREE HOURS PEOPLE. . . She is irony in tight mom jeans.

Please tell me these hypocritical lunatic fridgers don't represent the Republican party. I want to come back from Independent, but not while these morons are fighting for the steering wheel.
i dont get your beef.
1. she is telling them not to (just) take the tax dollars, but go to work and adopt a good ethic.
2. She is passionate about it and maybe took a day off to legally voice her opinion. At least she had the nerve to show up.
3. so she is wearing mom jeans, if they are in her budget and she is happy so be it. I would rather see that than a welfare recipient telling me to give more whilst they wear sneakers that cost 5 times the cost of my work shoes.
4. Maybe she is a democrat that is tired of gov waste of our tax dollars? I know quite a few that even though they voted Dem in the election are voicing that this is wrong.

[Playn]

i dont get your beef.
1. she is telling them not to (just) take the tax dollars, but go to work and adopt a good ethic.
2. She is passionate about it and maybe took a day off to legally voice her opinion. At least she had the nerve to show up.
3. so she is wearing mom jeans, if they are in her budget and she is happy so be it. I would rather see that than a welfare recipient telling me to give more whilst they wear sneakers that cost 5 times the cost of my work shoes.
4. Maybe she is a democrat that is tired of gov waste of our tax dollars? I know quite a few that even though they voted Dem in the election are voicing that this is wrong.

X2. It amazes me the people who condemn those who want to voice their opinions on the overspending, overtaxing government. If your happy with the way things are then just stfu and don't attend.

[catmando]

Hey I say go for it. Protest is as American as apple pie. But where were all you teabaggers when bu$h was showering the banks and financial money-scammers with YOUR tax dollars? Didn't hear a peep out of you then.

What we have here is a bunch of disaffected righties whose ticket got stomped by a black man last November and you're letting Dick F'n Armey, Rush Limpwrist, Sean Scammity and the rest of the right wing elitists pull your strings.

[Tommy Gun]

Hey I say go for it. Protest is as American as apple pie. But where were all you teabaggers when bu$h was showering the banks and financial money-scammers with YOUR tax dollars? Didn't hear a peep out of you then.

What we have here is a bunch of disaffected righties whose ticket got stomped by a black man last November and you're letting Dick F'n Armey, Rush Limpwrist, Sean Scammity and the rest of the right wing elitists pull your strings.

Please provide an example of Bush showering the banks...please...one legitimate example???

I find it amusing that one would make light of those attending the tea parties...I say lets compare them to those who attended the Obama inauguration.

[LotoSteve]

Hey I say go for it. Protest is as American as apple pie. But where were all you teabaggers when bu$h was showering the banks and financial money-scammers with YOUR tax dollars? Didn't hear a peep out of you then.

What we have here is a bunch of disaffected righties whose ticket got stomped by a black man last November and you're letting Dick F'n Armey, Rush Limpwrist, Sean Scammity and the rest of the right wing elitists pull your strings.

or it could be that only 50% of the working age people in this country pay all the taxes and that 98% of THEM are white and sick of it.:mad:

[Tommy Gun]

Obama Inauguration...wonder how they'd have been dressed if it was 75 degrees???

[Tommy Gun]

Nice bunch of environmentally sensitive folks...

[Tommy Gun]

or it could be that only 50% of the working age people in this country pay all the taxes and that 98% of THEM are white and sick of it.:mad:

Damn straight comment that is. The one thing Obama has got right was when he said that white people are angry too.

[BGIII]

I say lets compare them to those who attended the Obama inauguration.

I'll bet a hell of a lot more vacation days were used today versus the inauguration.

[Tommy Gun]

Yep...all you Obama worshipers should read this...

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5854

[Playn]

Hey I say go for it. Protest is as American as apple pie. But where were all you teabaggers when bu$h was showering the banks and financial money-scammers with YOUR tax dollars? Didn't hear a peep out of you then.

What we have here is a bunch of disaffected righties whose ticket got stomped by a black man last November and you're letting Dick F'n Armey, Rush Limpwrist, Sean Scammity and the rest of the right wing elitists pull your strings.

I don't know where you were the last 8 years but there were a ton of conservatives that were very vocal over the liberal type spending that happened under president Bush's watch. Of course they don't tell you that when you get your marching orders for the day from the Daily Kos or moveon.org

[cuda]

Hey I say go for it. Protest is as American as apple pie. But where were all you teabaggers when bu$h was showering the banks and financial money-scammers with YOUR tax dollars? Didn't hear a peep out of you then.

What we have here is a bunch of disaffected righties whose ticket got stomped by a black man last November and you're letting Dick F'n Armey, Rush Limpwrist, Sean Scammity and the rest of the right wing elitists pull your strings.

You never miss a chance to use your seventh grade "cool" names, do you?
You're about as funny as a fart in church.

[catmando]

You never miss a chance to use your seventh grade "cool" names, do you?
You're about as funny as a fart in church.I just think of "Algore" "Al Bore", "Slick Willie", "Billary", John F'n Kerry, "Lurch", "Barney F*g" etc etc and I laugh at you.

[Tommy Gun]

I just think of "Algore" "Al Bore", "Slick Willie", "Billary", John F'n Kerry, "Lurch", "Barney F*g" etc etc and I laugh at you.

Wheres the beef?...just what I thought Cat, you come up empty.

[Trim'd Up]

It's about time that the conservatives become a little more vocal, although it is a little tougher to be an activist when you have a job.
I think it's time to turn the tables. Lets all give up on that "working thing" and start protesting everything.
Who's gonna keep the lights on then?

[LotoSteve]

These were takin looking down over the Liberty Memorial in Kansas City today. The only monument to WW I veterans in the country.

[LotoSteve]

It started at 4:00 so the crowd was fairly small at this point but I heard it grew to around 5000 people. one other thing, and I do not consider myself a racist but I didnt see a single person of color at the protest.

[LaughingCat]

Jeese people. Only commenting on the irony. "Adopt my work ethic" but taking time from work to hold the sign. It's just as funny as a gor white chick wearing a thong selling watermelon and turkey legs at the inauguration.

BTW, the 700 billion dollar TARP program was basically extorted from us by George W. Bush (D-Texas) on prime time tv and given to banks with basically no strings. Dems are no better but I expect it from them.

[Tommy Gun]

Jeese people. Only commenting on the irony. "Adopt my work ethic" but taking time from work to hold the sign. It's just as funny as a gor white chick wearing a thong selling watermelon and turkey legs at the inauguration.

BTW, the 700 billion dollar TARP program was basically extorted from us by George W. Bush (D-Texas) on prime time tv and given to banks with basically no strings. Dems are no better but I expect it from them.

Yep the IRONY really stings...the working people who actually pay taxes typically can't afford the time off...the "silent majority"...guess that explains plenty; but silent no longer;

"We're ****ed and were not going to take it anymore."

[LotoSteve]

hmmm maybe thats why they didnt start till 4:00 in the afternoon so people didnt have to miss work.........

[LaughingCat]

OK, friendly comment her. Tea Parties are to protest excessive taxes. Taxes have not been raised except for cigarettes. Spending has gone up but economists say that is how to avoid a Depression. So we have people out there rallying against how high tier taxes are. I'm having trouble connecting the pieces. Are they protesting the future increases in taxes, which is inevitable considering how much money we've spent not just in Obama first 100 days, but over the last 8 years on wars, tax cuts and entitlement expansions like the medicare prescription drug program?

I watched the hrecaps from yesteray. While the core of the purpose was easily supporter by those with educations, the soundbites played on all networks were form people who basically want to pay no taxes and have no government. I'm not going to argue the virtues of their dream, but that's the platform people like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber stood for. And there is no way possible that a movement based on that can attract enough people to democratically elect a leader. What I am saying is, if you defend Democracy and want the Republican party to win elections again, strapping yourselves to the militant Right is not going to win elections. But it will win ratings.

Which would you rather have?

So you know, I do stand for smaller government, reduced, but reasonable taxes (I want someone to answer 911 when I call) and capitalism. But it's tough to make arguments right now when the Capitalist business leaders have been lining up asking for corporate socialism hand-outs.

When the economic system is working, we can all argue our ideological differences. When the system is broken, like it is right now, we have to go to economics and historical lessons to fix the problem.

Analogy: When the race engine is operable, stepping on the gas will make it go faster. When the engine is broken, you have to fix the problem. Standing on the gas will do nothing. Right now, people think they can just mash their ideological pedals harder and get the result they want. But maybe people need to realize we need to let the mechanics get under the hood fast. The race is under green flag and we're arguing what color jumpsuit the mechanic is wearing.

Basically, we are stuck with Bozo and the monsters, but they must succeed for all of us to. If we hope they fail, we all fail.

I will not change my signature line to the famous quote from Backdraft:

You go, we go.
That basically sums it up for me.

[Offshoredrillin]

Good post, I understand. However the text below I feel belies what most Americans are thinking with the actions of yesterday.

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government.

this was originally signed by 55 men that were "elected" to look out for the best interest of America. The point being is, are the "elected" people of today doing their best for the country.
Charles Krauthammer said yesterday of the protests,"keep in mind, the people are protesting taxation withrepresentation. That this should be a wake up call for the incumbents in congress. I personally feel that this was aimed more towards congress and not the current administration. Basically as Nicolas Cage said, it means the people with the ability to affect change have the responsibility to do it.

[LaughingCat]

Interesting. We have a good dialogue going. Getting a much better understanding. Too bad the media focuses on the people who aren't prepared to convey the message properly. That, in itself, could diminish the positive effect of yesterday's activities.

[Ratickle]

Interesting. We have a good dialogue going. Getting a much better understanding. Too bad the media focuses on the people who aren't prepared to convey the message properly. That, in itself, could diminish the positive effect of yesterday's activities.

Diminish yes, extinguish no. And you must remember, reporting sets the rules of who they interview. If you have an agenda, just as in statistical polls, your "pigeons" can effect the outcome almost any way you want it too. And most media has an agenda.

[Offshoredrillin]

Interesting. We have a good dialogue going. Getting a much better understanding. Too bad the media focuses on the people who aren't prepared to convey the message properly. That, in itself, could diminish the positive effect of yesterday's activities.

True, but what can you realistically expect from people that think Lindsay, britney or paris not wearing underwear tops the news over the daily people that risk their lives to help society.
People bash Fox news, but I think they really do their best to try to be fair and balanced, they voice their opinions, but will report both sides. I enjoy watching Bret Bair, he has a very good program.

[Tommy Gun]

What you're missing is that the mainstream medial who produced those news stories elected to portray the movement as far right wing wackos. That's what the liberal media does...take sides and spin the stories. I wish they'd report the story without bias. The fact that they call it "news" is a joke in itself.

[Tommy Gun]

Here are some excerpts from a LOTO paper...I think this article does a good job of getting to the point of the tea parties. Too bad no major newspaper could print something truly reflective of the event...

The crowd at the courthouse was diverse -- white, black, latino, old and young. They wore jeans, business suits, T-shirts, cowboy hats, biker leathers and bandanas. They sang the National Anthem, they pledged their alliance to the flag under God.

Under a bright blue sky as the backdrop, a yellow flag snaked the words, "Don't Tread On Me."

These people of Camden County, right or wrong, were not and are not indifferent. By shredding the shroud of political apathy they stood together as one voice to join communities across the nation to assert new an old idea, "No Taxation Without Representation."

The voters of Camden County who showed up Wednesday, Republican and Democrat, fear the future in light of current Congressional action overseen and condoned by President Barrack Obama.

Lake-area business owners and upper-income taxpayers, many now struggling to keep local residents employed, are not convinced their elected officials are consulting the constituents that pay the bills.

The most common sentiment shared by the masses Wednesday was frustration over bailouts. They join the loathing of the vast majority of Americans -- Democrat and Republican.

The bottom line from everyone present at the Tea Party was basic. They feel their money is better off left in their hands because the federal government has shown little success in running anything effectively.

They believe in the words of Ronald Reagan, “Government is not the solution to the problem, government is the problem.”

[BBB725]

OK, friendly comment her. Tea Parties are to protest excessive taxes. Taxes have not been raised except for cigarettes. Spending has gone up but economists say that is how to avoid a Depression. So we have people out there rallying against how high tier taxes are. I'm having trouble connecting the pieces. Are they protesting the future increases in taxes, which is inevitable considering how much money we've spent not just in Obama first 100 days, but over the last 8 years on wars, tax cuts and entitlement expansions like the medicare prescription drug program?

I watched the hrecaps from yesteray. While the core of the purpose was easily supporter by those with educations, the soundbites played on all networks were form people who basically want to pay no taxes and have no government. I'm not going to argue the virtues of their dream, but that's the platform people like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber stood for. And there is no way possible that a movement based on that can attract enough people to democratically elect a leader. What I am saying is, if you defend Democracy and want the Republican party to win elections again, strapping yourselves to the militant Right is not going to win elections. But it will win ratings.

Which would you rather have?

So you know, I do stand for smaller government, reduced, but reasonable taxes (I want someone to answer 911 when I call) and capitalism. But it's tough to make arguments right now when the Capitalist business leaders have been lining up asking for corporate socialism hand-outs.

When the economic system is working, we can all argue our ideological differences. When the system is broken, like it is right now, we have to go to economics and historical lessons to fix the problem.

Analogy: When the race engine is operable, stepping on the gas will make it go faster. When the engine is broken, you have to fix the problem. Standing on the gas will do nothing. Right now, people think they can just mash their ideological pedals harder and get the result they want. But maybe people need to realize we need to let the mechanics get under the hood fast. The race is under green flag and we're arguing what color jumpsuit the mechanic is wearing.

Basically, we are stuck with Bozo and the monsters, but they must succeed for all of us to. If we hope they fail, we all fail.

I will not change my signature line to the famous quote from Backdraft:

You go, we go.
That basically sums it up for me.

Wow, where do I start.
How about letting the Bush tax cuts expire, which will increase taxes, which will happen if congress does nothing, so higher taxes are coming.
Bush and congress over spent, but tax cuts help increase tax revenue, just goggle the Laffer curve and learn.
I think the analogy now is we have the car on the track going wide open the wrong direction and it time to change the whole team. So if they the current party gets everything they want we won't be able to unring the bell, so I hope they fail enacting their policies

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

[Trim'd Up]

Using the race car analogy from above. At what point is the car beyond repair, and it is better to push it to the junk yard and start over, or at least strip it to the frame and rebuild it? I guess I am one of those "extremists" that feels that the government is out of control right now, and unless there are major changes things are going to continue to get worse. The constitution was a great document when it was written, and still is if it was actually followed. It is time to get back to what the founding fathers envisioned this country to be. I am tired of asking permission for everything from buying a gun to planting a tree in MY yard.

Oh, and by the way... I am not planning to overthrow the government, I am not part of a militia, and I am no looking into bombing anything. Just disgusted.

[catmando]

Wow, where do I start.
How about letting the Bush tax cuts expire, which will increase taxes, which will happen if congress does nothing, so higher taxes are coming.
Bush and congress over spent, but tax cuts help increase tax revenue, just goggle the Laffer curve and learn.
I think the analogy now is we have the car on the track going wide open the wrong direction and it time to change the whole team. So if they the current party gets everything they want we won't be able to unring the bell, so I hope they fail enacting their policies

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.Well I "goggled" the Laffer Curve and guess what it's a laugher;

Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006, 12:00AM

In this column, I'm focusing on bad economics. In fact, I'm going to write about what I consider to be the two worst economic ideas -- or at least ideas that pass as economics, though both have been thoroughly repudiated by nearly all credible thinkers.

When I say worst, I don't mean the most outlandish (e.g. stock prices are controlled by aliens) because those ideas usually collapse of their own weight. Rather, the most pernicious bad ideas in economics are those that have a ring of truth. They're hard to debunk because they have a certain intuitive appeal. As a result, they stick around, providing bogus intellectual cover for bad policy, year after year, decade after decade.

For the sake of political balance, I'll skewer a favorite of the right in this column, and then a favorite of the left in my next piece.

The Laffer Curve

Economist Arthur Laffer made a very interesting supposition: If tax rates are high enough, then cutting taxes might actually generate more revenue for the government, or at least pay for themselves. (In one of life's great coincidences, he first sketched a graph of this idea on Dick Cheney's cocktail napkin.) If the government cuts taxes, then Uncle Sam gets a smaller cut of all economic activity -- but reducing taxes also generates new economic activity. Laffer reasoned that, under some circumstances, a tax cut would stimulate so much new economic activity that the government would end up with more in its coffers -- by taking a smaller slice of a much larger pie.

In fairness to Mr. Laffer, there's nothing wrong with this theory. It's almost certainly true at very high rates of taxation. If you consider the extreme, say a 99 percent marginal tax rate, then the government will probably not be collecting a lot of revenue. To begin with, citizens are going to hide as much income as possible. (The more honest ones will turn to barter and avoid the tax system entirely.) And no one is going to rush out and take a second job or build a factory if they get to keep only $1 of every $100 that they earn.

So it's entirely plausible that slashing tax rates from 99 percent to 30 percent could increase government tax revenues. It would deflate the black market and provide a huge new incentive to work and invest.

No Big Jolt for the U.S.

But here's the problem when we take Laffer's theory and try to apply it in the U.S.: We don't have a 99 percent marginal tax rate. Or 70 percent. Or even 50 percent. We start with low marginal tax rates relative to the rest of the developed world. (Yes, I understand that it may not feel that way after the check you wrote last month.)

So cutting the tax rate from 36 percent to 33 percent is not going to give you the same kind of economic jolt as slashing a tax rate from 90 percent to 50 percent. There's no huge black market to be shut down, no big supply of skilled workers to be lured back into the labor market, and so on.

Will it generate new economic activity? Probably. And that will generate some incremental tax revenue for the government. But remember, it also means that the government will be taking a smaller cut of all the economic activity that we already have.

Think about a simple numerical example: Assume you've got a $10 trillion economy and an average tax rate of 30 percent. So the government takes $3 trillion.

Let's cut the average tax rate to 25 percent and, for the sake of example, assume that it generates $1 trillion in new economic growth (a Herculean assumption, by the way). So now, what does Uncle Sam get? One quarter of $11 trillion is only $2.75 trillion. The economy grows, government revenues shrink.

That's basically what happened with the large Reagan and George W. Bush tax cuts, both of which were followed by large budget deficits. Yes, spending has a lot to do with that, but the bottom line is unequivocal: In both cases, government revenue was lower than it would have been without the tax cuts.

Can't Lose Weight by Eating More

Neither the Reagan nor the George W. Bush tax cuts were "self-financing," as the Laffer disciples like to argue. According to The Economist -- my former employer and no bastion of left-wing thought -- the current Bush Administration's top economist, Gregory Mankiw, estimated that decreasing taxes on labor would generate enough growth to recoup only about 17 cents for each lost dollar; a tax cut on capital is better, paying for more than half of itself. Still, the bottom line from the Bush Administration itself is that tax cuts reduce Uncle Sam's take.

So why does Laffer's sketch on Dick Cheney's cocktail napkin rank near the top of my list of bad economic ideas? Because, when applied to the U.S., it's intellectually dishonest. The Laffer Curve offers the false promise that we can cut taxes without making any sacrifice on the spending side, and that's simply not true. It's the economic equivalent of arguing that you can lose weight by eating more.

Let me be perfectly clear: I'm not arguing that tax cuts are bad. I'm simply pointing out that we can't pretend that tax cuts won't require reductions on the spending side to balance the budget. In fact, you can disregard every other argument in this column and think about one thing: If Laffer were right, lower taxes would never require any spending sacrifice. We could pay a mere one percent of our income in taxes and still fund all of our government spending -- and maybe more! Do you think that's really possible?

This column should give you a hint of why economics is called the dismal science -- it's all about tradeoffs. We're the ones telling you that if you get more of something, you probably have to get less of something else.

Whether it's tax policy or dieting, you can't have your cake and lose weight, too, which is why America currently has huge deficits and a lot of fat people.

http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/economist/4065?p=1

Be careful what you wish for...

[cuda]

I just think of "Algore" "Al Bore", "Slick Willie", "Billary", John F'n Kerry, "Lurch", "Barney F*g" etc etc and I laugh at you.

Quote one fvcking time I ever used one of those sophmorish phrases. As a matter of fact, I've never heard anyone use those phrases. Go back to you political forums where you get brownie points for seeing who can make up the coolest names.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[jayboat]

People bash Fox news, but I think they really do their best to try to be fair and balanced

I can't believe you wrote that. :rofl:

Looks to me like the remnants of the repub party are feeling a bit marginalized these days. :nopity:

[Offshoredrillin]

I can't believe you wrote that. :rofl:

Looks to me like the remnants of the repub party are feeling a bit marginalized these days. :nopity:
that's only half the statement Jay, i also said that they do give their opinions, but will present both sides. They have many liberal Dem guests to present it, the other news outlets wont even invite a republican or god forbid a conservative. I have watched many Dems on fox and have seen the other side of many issues and at times have found out they are correct.
To realistically look at it, I'm 45 and was taught to save as well as spend, our government now is telling people to spend, most of the people I know are putting cash in safes week by week. This government now looks down on Family values while trying too hard to appease the special interests, that we cant have an opinion on gays and illegal immigrants, yet it is perfectly ok for the gays and illegal immigrants to rub the American family's face in their sexuality and make them pay for the illegals. Something has got to give, and by the ever changing tone of the people that are footing the bill, I bet it is sooner than later.

[Trim'd Up]

Catmando, typical selective cut and paste. You can google anything and find damn near whatever side of the topic you want. I can cut and paste AT LEAST 10 other articles/websites that support the laffer curve, but you were able to find one that "proved" it wrong. SO i guess your view must be correct. :rolleyes:

Congratulations!

For my next trick, I am going to "prove" that elephants cause cancer. :rolleyes:

[BBB725]

Well I "goggled" the Laffer Curve and guess what it's a laugher

No laugh Cat just some simple facts, you must have missed it but the basic theory, that has been proven over time, is this. Regardless if the tax rates are 90% or 33% the amount of revenue the government takes in is about 20% of the GDP.
So to increase the amount of revenue you have to increase the GDP of the country.

Hauser's law

[JohnS]

It's pretty sad when the president's new dog gets more air-time then tens, if not, hundreds of thousands of American TAXPAYERS expressing their opinions on runaway gov't.
News is just entertainment with polarized political slants.

[Offshoredrillin]

I can't believe you wrote that. :rofl:

Looks to me like the remnants of the repub party are feeling a bit marginalized these days. :nopity:

just for you buddy :D


Fox is already cowering down to the President

In response to President Obama's complaint that FOX News doesn't show
enough Black and Hispanic people on their network, FOX has announced
that they will now air " America's Most Wanted" TWICE a week

[Ratickle]

just for you buddy :D


Fox is already cowering down to the President

In response to President Obama's complaint that FOX News doesn't show
enough Black and Hispanic people on their network, FOX has announced
that they will now air " America's Most Wanted" TWICE a week

That's funny.......



Sad, but funny.......

[Tommy Gun]

I can't believe you wrote that. :rofl:

Looks to me like the remnants of the repub party are feeling a bit marginalized these days. :nopity:

Jay, it's good to have you back...I've really missed your witty (although misguided) banter.

[catmando]

No laugh Cat just some simple facts, you must have missed it but the basic theory, that has been proven over time, is this. Regardless if the tax rates are 90% or 33% the amount of revenue the government takes in is about 20% of the GDP.
So to increase the amount of revenue you have to increase the GDP of the country.

Hauser's lawHere's the killer for the Laugher's Theory;

"That's basically what happened with the large Reagan and George W. Bush tax cuts, both of which were followed by large budget deficits. Yes, spending has a lot to do with that, but the bottom line is unequivocal: In both cases, government revenue was lower than it would have been without the tax cuts."

That paragraph is in my cut and paste. If you bothered to read it you must have seen it.

[BBB725]

Here's the killer for the Laugher's Theory;

"That's basically what happened with the large Reagan and George W. Bush tax cuts, both of which were followed by large budget deficits. Yes, spending has a lot to do with that, but the bottom line is unequivocal: In both cases, government revenue was lower than it would have been without the tax cuts."

That paragraph is in my cut and paste. If you bothered to read it you must have seen it.

Cat you are missing the point, the law and curve have nothing to do with a balance budget, this only applies to the revenue the government takes in, not what it spends. Again the way to increase revenue for the government is to increase GDP and you do that by lowering taxes.

[catmando]

Cat you are missing the point, the law and curve have nothing to do with a balance budget, this only applies to the revenue the government takes in, not what it spends. Again the way to increase revenue for the government is to increase GDP and you do that by lowering taxes.We're doing business under the bu$h43 tax rates now which are higher than bu$h41's if I'm not mistaken.

How far would you lower taxes? What would be a good tax rate in your opinion? Would you close the offshore tax havens?

[BBB725]

We're doing business under the bu$h43 tax rates now which are higher than bu$h41's if I'm not mistaken.

How far would you lower taxes? What would be a good tax rate in your opinion? Would you close the offshore tax havens?

First I'm not a Republican, I'm a conservative and Bush was the lesser of two evils but still spent like a drunk sailor. The tax rates are progressive but for this I'll use the top brackets. In 2000 tax was 39.6%, 2001 was 39.1%, 2002 was 38.6% 2003 to current was 35%.

I have never given real thought on where taxes should be, we need a national defense, road system and other necessary services so taxes can't be zero. But it's a great question, let me think what I believe would work.

Currently I pay 35% federal, 7% state, 6.5% FICA with employer matches 6.5% making it 13%, total is 55%. Again the taxes are progressive and these numbers will be off some. Now what I'd like to see and where were at is the problem, I would like a flat tax no loop holes with the majority staying local. The taxes would be flipped something like this 10% county, 5% state and 5% federal. I'm just picking numbers but something along those lines.
Corporate taxes should be next to zero any taxes a company pays is passed along in the price of the product. At that point nobody would go offshore to avoid taxes, it wouldn't be worth it.

Want some more rule changes to better the system, lets make election day and tax day the same weekend instead of 5 months apart. Base line budgets that have to be balanced or all politicians, retired and active lose all pay and benefits till it is. Term limits two terms at a national level and your done, that way the politicians would pass laws knowing they will be a private citizen after. Elections held over a weekend with no results posted or broadcast until the polls close, if you release results you lose your FCC license. No more two party system, everyone's independent, that should make the voters learn about each candidate.

[MacGyver]

First I'm not a Republican, I'm a conservative and Bush was the lesser of two evils but still spent like a drunk sailor. The tax rates are progressive but for this I'll use the top brackets. In 2000 tax was 39.6%, 2001 was 39.1%, 2002 was 38.6% 2003 to current was 35%.

I have never given real thought on where taxes should be, we need a national defense, road system and other necessary services so taxes can't be zero. But it's a great question, let me think what I believe would work.

Currently I pay 35% federal, 7% state, 6.5% FICA with employer matches 6.5% making it 13%, total is 55%. Again the taxes are progressive and these numbers will be off some. Now what I'd like to see and where were at is the problem, I would like a flat tax no loop holes with the majority staying local. The taxes would be flipped something like this 10% county, 5% state and 5% federal. I'm just picking numbers but something along those lines.
Corporate taxes should be next to zero any taxes a company pays is passed along in the price of the product. At that point nobody would go offshore to avoid taxes, it wouldn't be worth it.

Want some more rule changes to better the system, lets make election day and tax day the same weekend instead of 5 months apart. Base line budgets that have to be balanced or all politicians, retired and active lose all pay and benefits till it is. Term limits two terms at a national level and your done, that way the politicians would pass laws knowing they will be a private citizen after. Elections held over a weekend with no results posted or broadcast until the polls close, if you release results you lose your FCC license. No more two party system, everyone's independent, that should make the voters learn about each candidate.


Well put Brooks.

[cuda]

OK, friendly comment her. Tea Parties are to protest excessive taxes. Taxes have not been raised except for cigarettes. Spending has gone up but economists say that is how to avoid a Depression. So we have people out there rallying against how high tier taxes are. I'm having trouble connecting the pieces. Are they protesting the future increases in taxes, which is inevitable considering how much money we've spent not just in Obama first 100 days, but over the last 8 years on wars, tax cuts and entitlement expansions like the medicare prescription drug program?

I watched the hrecaps from yesteray. While the core of the purpose was easily supporter by those with educations, the soundbites played on all networks were form people who basically want to pay no taxes and have no government. I'm not going to argue the virtues of their dream, but that's the platform people like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber stood for. And there is no way possible that a movement based on that can attract enough people to democratically elect a leader. What I am saying is, if you defend Democracy and want the Republican party to win elections again, strapping yourselves to the militant Right is not going to win elections. But it will win ratings.

Which would you rather have?

So you know, I do stand for smaller government, reduced, but reasonable taxes (I want someone to answer 911 when I call) and capitalism. But it's tough to make arguments right now when the Capitalist business leaders have been lining up asking for corporate socialism hand-outs.

When the economic system is working, we can all argue our ideological differences. When the system is broken, like it is right now, we have to go to economics and historical lessons to fix the problem.

Analogy: When the race engine is operable, stepping on the gas will make it go faster. When the engine is broken, you have to fix the problem. Standing on the gas will do nothing. Right now, people think they can just mash their ideological pedals harder and get the result they want. But maybe people need to realize we need to let the mechanics get under the hood fast. The race is under green flag and we're arguing what color jumpsuit the mechanic is wearing.

Basically, we are stuck with Bozo and the monsters, but they must succeed for all of us to. If we hope they fail, we all fail.

I will not change my signature line to the famous quote from Backdraft:

You go, we go.
That basically sums it up for me.

Huh? I bet you when McVeigh or the Unabomber runs for president, I won't vote for either of them either. I'm not sure if it states it in the US Constitution that the president must be alive, not room temp, or not.

[cuda]

First I'm not a Republican, I'm a conservative and Bush was the lesser of two evils but still spent like a drunk sailor. The tax rates are progressive but for this I'll use the top brackets. In 2000 tax was 39.6%, 2001 was 39.1%, 2002 was 38.6% 2003 to current was 35%.

I have never given real thought on where taxes should be, we need a national defense, road system and other necessary services so taxes can't be zero. But it's a great question, let me think what I believe would work.

Currently I pay 35% federal, 7% state, 6.5% FICA with employer matches 6.5% making it 13%, total is 55%. Again the taxes are progressive and these numbers will be off some. Now what I'd like to see and where were at is the problem, I would like a flat tax no loop holes with the majority staying local. The taxes would be flipped something like this 10% county, 5% state and 5% federal. I'm just picking numbers but something along those lines.
Corporate taxes should be next to zero any taxes a company pays is passed along in the price of the product. At that point nobody would go offshore to avoid taxes, it wouldn't be worth it.

Want some more rule changes to better the system, lets make election day and tax day the same weekend instead of 5 months apart. Base line budgets that have to be balanced or all politicians, retired and active lose all pay and benefits till it is. Term limits two terms at a national level and your done, that way the politicians would pass laws knowing they will be a private citizen after. Elections held over a weekend with no results posted or broadcast until the polls close, if you release results you lose your FCC license. No more two party system, everyone's independent, that should make the voters learn about each candidate.

A national sale's tax would accomplish a lot of the same things, except there would be millions out of work, who's only existance is due to writing, interpreting, and enforcing the tax codes.

[Tommy Gun]

A national sale's tax would accomplish a lot of the same things, except there would be millions out of work, who's only existance is due to writing, interpreting, and enforcing the tax codes.

I wouldn't worry about the IRS employees; they probably never have to pay taxes and get their benefits for life.

[Offshoredrillin]

I think the main thing that everyone really wants to see is a fiscal responsibilty from the government, I wouldn't have a problem giving a little more once a responsible program is in place, it's the rampany waste that is astounding. No problem was ever solved by just throwing money at it. The tea partys to me, were bringing the declaration back in line, and I see it growing daily, the republic has the right to empower a new government and insist on positve improvement, no party line at all. just fiscal responsibility and that isnt so easily defined.

[Tommy Gun]

I think the main thing that everyone really wants to see is a fiscal responsibilty from the government, I wouldn't have a problem giving a little more once a responsible program is in place, it's the rampany waste that is astounding. No problem was ever solved by just throwing money at it. The tea partys to me, were bringing the declaration back in line, and I see it growing daily, the republic has the right to empower a new government and insist on positve improvement, no party line at all. just fiscal responsibility and that isnt so easily defined.

I agree...I'd like to see a balanced budget ammendment. Of course there would have to be emergency exceptions; i.e. war; but the bottom line is that we cannot keep spending more than we make...this is our personal responsibility so why should the same not apply to our governments? (local, state and fedral). This crap of granting million(s) to research why pigs smell, etc. is ridiculous.

[cuda]

I think the main thing that everyone really wants to see is a fiscal responsibilty from the government, I wouldn't have a problem giving a little more once a responsible program is in place, it's the rampany waste that is astounding. No problem was ever solved by just throwing money at it. The tea partys to me, were bringing the declaration back in line, and I see it growing daily, the republic has the right to empower a new government and insist on positve improvement, no party line at all. just fiscal responsibility and that isnt so easily defined.

Rob for emperor!

You will have to change your first name. :sifone:

[cuda]

I wouldn't worry about the IRS employees; they probably never have to pay taxes and get their benefits for life.

I'm sure, and if they did abolish the IRS, they'd write into law they should get paid anyway, which I'm willing to agree to. It would cost us less in the long run.

[cuda]

Where do you get one of those bumper stickers that say

STOP ORGANIZED CRIME
ABOLISH THE IRS

[phragle]

maybe not federal taxes...but they will...how about local?? you pay city taxes and sales taxes and property taxes to pay for rd maint. police, fire, trash pickup, schools etc... now they want to add police and fire levies, garbage fees school levies etc.... what the hell are they doing with the money I am already giving them thats supposed to cover these things???

[BBB725]

maybe not federal taxes...but they will...how about local?? you pay city taxes and sales taxes and property taxes to pay for rd maint. police, fire, trash pickup, schools etc... now they want to add police and fire levies, garbage fees school levies etc.... what the hell are they doing with the money I am already giving them thats supposed to cover these things???



Spending it wisely:)

[cuda]

Spending it wisely:)

Good answer I'm sure. :sifone:

[Duke69]

OK, friendly comment her. Tea Parties are to protest excessive taxes. Taxes have not been raised except for cigarettes. Spending has gone up but economists say that is how to avoid a Depression. So we have people out there rallying against how high tier taxes are. I'm having trouble connecting the pieces. Are they protesting the future increases in taxes, which is inevitable considering how much money we've spent not just in Obama first 100 days, but over the last 8 years on wars, tax cuts and entitlement expansions like the medicare prescription drug program?

I watched the hrecaps from yesteray. While the core of the purpose was easily supporter by those with educations, the soundbites played on all networks were form people who basically want to pay no taxes and have no government. I'm not going to argue the virtues of their dream, but that's the platform people like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber stood for. And there is no way possible that a movement based on that can attract enough people to democratically elect a leader. What I am saying is, if you defend Democracy and want the Republican party to win elections again, strapping yourselves to the militant Right is not going to win elections. But it will win ratings.

Which would you rather have?

So you know, I do stand for smaller government, reduced, but reasonable taxes (I want someone to answer 911 when I call) and capitalism. But it's tough to make arguments right now when the Capitalist business leaders have been lining up asking for corporate socialism hand-outs.

When the economic system is working, we can all argue our ideological differences. When the system is broken, like it is right now, we have to go to economics and historical lessons to fix the problem.

Analogy: When the race engine is operable, stepping on the gas will make it go faster. When the engine is broken, you have to fix the problem. Standing on the gas will do nothing. Right now, people think they can just mash their ideological pedals harder and get the result they want. But maybe people need to realize we need to let the mechanics get under the hood fast. The race is under green flag and we're arguing what color jumpsuit the mechanic is wearing.

Basically, we are stuck with Bozo and the monsters, but they must succeed for all of us to. If we hope they fail, we all fail.

I will not change my signature line to the famous quote from Backdraft:

You go, we go.
That basically sums it up for me.

One of the best posts on this subject I've seen!!

[Tommy Gun]

Tax his land,
Tax his wage,
Tax his bed in which he lays.
Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes is the rule.
Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.

Tax his ties,
Tax his shirts,
Tax his work,
Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he tries to think.

Tax his booze,
Tax his beers,
If he cries,
Tax his tears.

Tax his bills,
Tax his gas,
Tax his notes,
Tax his cash.

Tax him good and let him know
That after taxes, he has no dough.

If he hollers,
Tax him more,
Tax him until he's good and sore.

Tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in which he lays.
Put these words upon his tomb,
'Taxes drove me to my doom!'

And when he's gone,
We won't relax,
We'll still be after the inheritance TAX!!

[Ratickle]

Tax his land,
Tax his wage,
Tax his bed in which he lays.
Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes is the rule.
Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.

Tax his ties,
Tax his shirts,
Tax his work,
Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he tries to think.

Tax his booze,
Tax his beers,
If he cries,
Tax his tears.

Tax his bills,
Tax his gas,
Tax his notes,
Tax his cash.

Tax him good and let him know
That after taxes, he has no dough.

If he hollers,
Tax him more,
Tax him until he's good and sore.

Tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in which he lays.
Put these words upon his tomb,
'Taxes drove me to my doom!'

And when he's gone,
We won't relax,
We'll still be after the inheritance TAX!!


I made an argument for debates that the life-time effective tax rate in this country was over 100%. Sometimes I won.