Home generator set up ideas

[pullmytrigger]

Anytime the power goes out I wonder if its going to be another "big one"......a week or so ago an area 3/4hr away from here was down for 3 days.....gives me the creeps so Im looking into buying one........ but its one thing to have one and another thing to be able to hook it up quickly and get the show on the road in the dark.....

the boat sits in the shop with practically a full tank of gas that I could get out with a drill pump and battery drill so i think i got that covered.......Obviously Im going to need the furnace to run and I have an electric hot water tank.......anyone go down this road?? any ideas on wattages?

[JFM]

I have a 20KW doing my house, auto transfer, so when the power goes out I don't even move. It runs off of propane or natural gas. I wouldn't go anything under a 10KW. JMO.

[JupiterSunsation]

You can buy cheap used ones on ebay, some even mounted on trailers. I have a stand-by unit 15KW that runs on natural gas and runs the whole house but can't run both a/c's at the same time.

If I didn't have natural gas I would buy a diesel unit that sits on a trailer but storage/theft could be an issue for some.

[buck]

I set my house up for this when I built it. I just throw a switch on the loop out front and change it from the power company to generator, plug in the generator and I'm good.

The up front cost for me was around $900. My partner has multiple Miller generators in his shop that I can take my pick of.

I say do it if it's cost effective.

Buck

[t500hps]

Is the furnace electric? Probably not. I have a 8,000 watt portable genset that came from Home Depot for less than $1,000. It runs the fans in my furnace (natural gas) and will supply power for 2 frig's, lights, 2 TV's, etc. Not sure if this one will run one of my AC's yet since I haven't needed it in the summer yet. My hot water heater is gas so not sure how much power your would take.

BTW: I used an extra 30amp shorepower cord from a boat to feed power into the panel box.

[RebarBox]

I set my house up for this when I built it. I just throw a switch on the loop out front and change it from the power company to generator, plug in the generator and I'm good.

The up front cost for me was around $900. My partner has multiple Miller generators in his shop that I can take my pick of.

I say do it if it's cost effective.

Buck

I like your thinking.

I could be using tomarrow if the forecast holds.:ack2:

[pullmytrigger]

its a gas furnace......

[Chris]

A 10K portable will run the essentials. You can buy a switch for $500 that will allow you to manually drop circuits and switch them to gen feed. I see 10K gens for $500 all the time. If you wanted fixed, 20K will run the average 4 bed houyse as long as you don't turn every light in the house on or try to run your air compressor, furnace, fridge, etc. I would opt for propane/natural gas unit and the auto switch if I were going that direction. You're probably going to be close to $5k into that installed.

[Audiofn]

The auto units are nice. If you loose power often then I would go that route. If you are just worried then I would go the manual set ups like Chris and Buck are talking about. What ever you do PLEASE get a PROPER transfer switch. People hook these things up wrong all the time and you can kill a guy working on the poll by back feeding the system if you are not carefull.

[t500hps]

The auto units are nice. If you loose power often then I would go that route. If you are just worried then I would go the manual set ups like Chris and Buck are talking about. What ever you do PLEASE get a PROPER transfer switch. People hook these things up wrong all the time and you can kill a guy working on the poll by back feeding the system if you are not carefull.

Yep, My neighbor's best friend is a lineman for the power co. Said he got zapped working on a line where someone was backfeeding a panel box (I do it too, but shut off the main first). He found the house that was backfeeding the line and removed their meter from the side of the house.....he said they will have to call us now to discuss this won't they!!!

[Knot 4 Me]

Last July, I installed a 8KW Generac stand-by natural gas gen. $3,500 for everything installed. I should have done this years ago as I have 3 sump pumps in my basement and battery back-ups don't stand a chance against my water intake if I lose power. The 8KW gives you 8 circuits. It covers my 2 refrigerators, furnace blower motor, 3 sump pumps, garage lights/door openers, master bedroom and bath and my entire family room. I thought about a 20KW to do the entire house but the up charge was just too great and the 8KW handles all my basic needs and essential systems. The installed price for the 20KW was more than double the price of the 8KW. Plus, you run a 20KW for a few days living like you normally would if you had power and your gas bill will be quite painfull!

[BY U BOY]

Alot of people are using these around here. http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Default.aspx

[Knot 4 Me]

Alot of people are using these around here. http://www.guardiangenerators.com/Default.aspxYup. That is what I have and love it. The new ones are very quiet.

[buck]

I like your thinking.

I could be using tomarrow if the forecast holds.:ack2:


That's exactly what I will be using if the weather comes too. I hope it doesn't happen, I'm leaving here at 3pm for Tulsa to watch AC/DC. This could be a long night. Oh well, at least Casey is going too. :ack2:

Buck

[Pachanga]

I have also been thinking about going this route. Figured I would install an underground propane tank. How much propane does a 20K or 25K generator normally use if it's being worked near capacity?

[insanity]

Definitely install a transfer switch if you want to run your panel via generator. There is a less expensive one you can install in the box itself, it locks out the generator breaker while the main is on and vice versa. I also saw a box at Lowes that you can install to run about 6 different breakers, but it was only like 4 15-amp and 2 20-amp and the install didn't look all that slick.

Best way is a transfer switch that completely disconnects the line coming in when you switch it to generator. As mentioned above you can get in deep sheit if you backfeed the lines and hurt/kill somebody.

[Chris]

I have also been thinking about going this route. Figured I would install an underground propane tank. How much propane does a 20K or 25K generator normally use if it's being worked near capacity?

I don't believe they'll allow propane underground. You could go to diesel, which is much less expensive and you'll need much less since it contains more BTU per gallon. Getting an underground tank permit could be tough.

[Spicy]

I don't believe they'll allow propane underground. You could go to diesel, which is much less expensive and you'll need much less since it contains more BTU per gallon. Getting an underground tank permit could be tough.

I have a 500 lb propane tank buried in my back yard, just had it topped of today actually....

[Spicy]

On the sizing of the gennie, the most bang for your buck go with the Lowes/Home Depot Generac or Guardian 16KW models, it will run "most" of your house on a Single family application and you dont even need to get off the couch during an outage, count to 8 and listen for the ATS to transfer and your back in business.... when Utility is restored it will transfer back automatically and then the gennie will run for 10 minutes or so to cool down....
I'm the Service Manager for a Large Electrical in Washington DC, i have bought a few for neighbors and my last house I built, even with my supply houses giving me a great deal I was only $200 cheaper then Home Depot.. not alot of mark up in them from what I have seen...

[MacGyver]

And remember to always hire a licensed electrician ;)

[Chris]

I have a 500 lb propane tank buried in my back yard, just had it topped of today actually....

Learn something new every day.

[inbetween]

Learn something new every day.

That is one of my daily goals. Makes each day a good one.

What kind of costs are involved in installing an auto switching generator setup, including generator, if the house has no gen now. We don't lose power often, but when we do I'm lost. I could never live like the Amish.

[Spicy]

Learn something new every day.

built this house three years ago in the Nazi of all building code capital of the world, Annapolis Md, the sailing capital of the world.... not that bad but they put you threw the ringer to get anything in this County..... and believe it or not that was the easiest permit, $3K for the tank,buried it, and ran it into my house approx 60' away to where my Plumber picked it up from there... labor and they topped it off, 400lbs as they only fill it to 80%...

[Spicy]

And remember to always hire a licensed electrician ;)


AMEN!!!!!:26::sifone:

[Spicy]

That is one of my daily goals. Makes each day a good one.

What kind of costs are involved in installing an auto switching generator setup, including generator, if the house has no gen now. We don't lose power often, but when we do I'm lost. I could never live like the Amish.


give or take a few hundred as labor rates differ around the Country...
16KW Gennie 3895 plus tax
Electrician, day of labor plus misc $500 in parts ($1,500)
Permit $100 (?)
Plumber... have to figure how you are going to feed it, Propane or Natural Gas?? This could get just as expensive as the gennie...

Basically 5500 to 7000 on the average...

Pat

[Pachanga]

I don't believe they'll allow propane underground. You could go to diesel, which is much less expensive and you'll need much less since it contains more BTU per gallon. Getting an underground tank permit could be tough.

My issue with diesel would be the storage life. Never heard of propane going bad. Am I right thinking this way?

[jryan26]

I set my house up for this when I built it. I just throw a switch on the loop out front and change it from the power company to generator, plug in the generator and I'm good.

The up front cost for me was around $900. My partner has multiple Miller generators in his shop that I can take my pick of.

I say do it if it's cost effective.

Buck


Looking at the forecast, you better get one picked up!:(

[rjcardinal]

One thing to think about is RPM. Most affordable gensets out there are 3600 rpm. These are way loud and not as durable as the 1800 rpm models.

I have a 15KW Guardian gasoline generator that powers my whole house. I have two central air units and I try to stagger run them to save on fuel. Several times during the power outages following hurricanes while entertaining family and friends I have screwed up and had both units running. The 15KW did it just fine. This year after Gustav it was even able to run my new inground pool as well.

So an inexpensive 3600 rpm store bought generator set up properly can run an entire house with ease.

But here are the draw backs.

3600 rpm is loud. Barely audible for me sleeping in the house with the a/c running but tough on my neighbors trying to sleep in hot houses with the windows open.

Being gasoline powered it burns about a gallon per hour running the house. At 4 bucks a gallon after Gustav it was expensive but worth it.

Refueling every 12 hours with a 30 minute or so cool down period. Pain in the ass but better than no a/c.

Longevity... just how long will this air cooled 30 hp V Twin last screaming at 3600 rpm near full load? So far so good but after 10 days from Katrina, 7 days with Rita, 9 days with Gustav, and 3 with Ike I am concerned.

After Katrina I was the only house around with a whole house gererator. Just a few years later several around me have something. The guy across the street has a Cat 35 KW natural gas 1800 rpm generator. This thing is so quiet that standing right next to it while running a 3800 square foot house you can barely hear it.

So thinking of my next generator I am looking at 25 KW 1800 rpm natural gas stationary units or a 25 KW diesel on a trailer with a couple hundred gallon fuel tank.

The automatic natural gas units are the best for convience. And I already have a 2 psi gas system run to my pool heater right next to where the generator will be. But in our area where flooding is a problem they might shut down the gas system if it gets real bad. They did in New Orleans after Katrina. Too much wind destruction or flood water will move hot water heaters and furnaces and break gas lines. I have been assured by an officer at the local natural gas monopoly that anything short of a nuclear attack they will keep the gas system on. But could you imagine shelling out the bucks for a commercial natural gas 1800 rpm genset only to loose gas service after a hurricane? I would probably have to go to jail.

The diesel on a trailer is a viable option. I can store it at my business and bring it home when needed. It wont be as conveint but having its own fuel supply has its advantages.

What ever I get it will be an 1800 RPM model though.

There was a good discussion on this topic on the other site a while back. It was in the bilge so I cant go there now but a member was a dealer for several gensets and had a lot of good info to offer.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Ron

[Chris]

My issue with diesel would be the storage life. Never heard of propane going bad. Am I right thinking this way?

We don't deal directly with them but virtually all of my customers have commercial generators. They're all diesel. Diesel's biggest issue is water getting into it and bacteria growth. I'm certain both can be managed.

[Madpoodle]

Buying a generator 101:

Generators are like a stereo. Ratings on them are always listed as maximum (peak) output, not continuous (RMS) duty. All generators are subject to a performance factor (PF) rating. Most use a .80 factor, i.e. a 10KW is 8 continuous, 10 peak. Some of the higher quality one's (Yamaha for one) use a .90 PF.

What does this mean to the consumer?? Your genset will produce its maximum rating (10kw) for a short period of time to handle surges and overloads. It will produce the rated output (8kw) on a “continuous” basis. Your generator may also have a “surge” rating. AFAIK, this rating has no standards, but instead seems to be how much of a load the genny will handle for a brief period without the voltage dropping below an undetermined level. As an example, there is a site that lists the Yamaha YG6600DE as having a surge capacity of 18,000 watts. This genset is rated @ 6600 peak, 6000 continuous. On a load bank it will hold a 6KW load @ 123 volts, 60 – 61 HZ all day long. Bump it to 7KW and after a few moments it begins to lose voltage, dropping to approx 110 volts. Bump it to 8KW, and the voltage is below 100 volts, and the engine is at the point of stalling. Whatever load you have on it, let’s say a fridge, is at risk of burning out it’s compressor / fan motors due to low voltage, and if the genny stalls, the risk is compounded.

Then, we get into the next bugaboo: Duty cycles. Not all generators / engines are manufactured to perform at rated output full-time. A duty cycle is how many minutes out of the hour it can do this.. Bummer is most generator manufacturers hide this information. So, your 8KW genset may actually be capable of producing that power for 6 minutes out of every ten without damaging it, or a 60% duty cycle.. Last but not least, a lot of the cheaper genset's use a smaller engine. It is always running at or exceeding its maximum capacity, shortening its life.. There is no replacement for displacement :) :)

To connect to the house: Get a transfer switch. If you’re needing to connect now, first of all yank the meter.. Not only does this prevent feedback from your genny to the lines, it prevents feedback from the lines to your genny.. It also gives the linemen a visual indicator that you have isolated your house from them, and they are not going to die working on your lines.. (FWIW, I have a 400-amp transfer switch on my house, and I still yank the meter when a genny is in use. Not necessary, but again, it's that visual thing..) Next, you need to inspect all the wiring for damage from flying debris. Outside outlets are a prime suspect. Check inside the panels and visually check your walls for water intrusion.. Then, you can wire the genny into the main panel. You want to connect to the 240 side of the genny and let the panel split the voltage. Your genset has two sets of windings, both make 120. If you pull off the one winding all the time, you will burn it up. If you pull evenly across both windings, it will last much longer.. Most of the gensets today have a four-prong connector, separating the neutral from the ground... Your electrician can help you connect it, but make sure you use all four connections if provided.. The generator should be grounded also; I go to the ground rod for my main panel.

Diesel vs Propane: On the average, a 20KW propane burns about 4 GPH. My 30KW diesel burns 17 gallons a day running 24/7. A lot of my customers buy the diesel units so they can switch it to 3 phase during the day for the office/shop, single phase at night for the house. Another drawback to the propane units is the fact that the regulators in them tend to go bad and come out adjustment. Diaphragms dry rot, fuel doesn’t flow, or even worse, leaks.



So, where are we now? Budget for the most generator you can afford.. Then BUY the next size up... FWIW, I sell more gensets the second week after a storm than the first. The people buying them are on their second generator of the event, the first one is toast…

[Pachanga]

Madpoodle,Excellent informative post! What part of the country are you in? SO discounts? :)

[Chris]

Madpoodle opens the door on another issue- you can't look at your load and buy a generator that matches it and expect it to work.

We do the occasional trade fair that's outside- it requires we bring in a 3-phase generator. We typically need at least twice the size comparable to the machine's power demands. Now that's running some fairly large electric motors that are starting at max load amps.

[Pachanga]

Yeah, The more I look at it I will probably need a 30K. All electric...heat pump has a 12K emergency strip,wellpump,etc.

[insanity]

panel split the voltage. Your genset has two sets of windings, both make 120. If you pull off the one winding all the time, you will burn it up. If you pull evenly across both windings, it will last much longer.. Most of the gensets today have a four-prong connector, separating the neutral from the ground... Your electrician can help you connect it, but make sure you use all four connections if provided.. The generator should be grounded also; I go to the ground rod for my main panel.



What about a generator that doesn't have a 240 plug? Just two 120 volt outlets? Same thing, two windings?

[boostbros]

a big point to make here about a mile from here we had a 500 foot sports dome that had a natural gas back up(20hp briggs V twin might have been kohler don,t remember) well after a big ice storm where we lost power for a week the back up ran for 36 hrs then seized allowing the dome to self destruct. the air cooled engines are not designed to run 24/7 they hold very little oil compaired to diesels a few of the guys are correct here diesel is by far the best and bigger is better i bought 2 military 50 kw enclosed sound proofed with 6 cylinder engines gensets for less than one honda 2000 if you look around they turn up all the time at auction sites and local adds i almost bought one the other day from the local water works 150kw it went for 1100bucks it was to big for any of my needs i do have a 100kw in our tug and its hard to get a big enough load on it ! it runs on straight used cooking oil, diesel if treated does not go bad or rancid like gasoline does

[Quinlan]

That's exactly what I will be using if the weather comes too. I hope it doesn't happen, I'm leaving here at 3pm for Tulsa to watch AC/DC. This could be a long night. Oh well, at least Casey is going too. :ack2:

Buck


Not to Hijac but The show was ROCKIN last nite!!!! Sorry about the CAPS I can barely talk!!:sifone:

Quinlan

[ProMod]

Unfortunately we have gone down the days with out power road.
As a contractor I would grab a couple Honda 5000 watt generators from the shop and hook them to a series of extension cords to keep hot water, freezers going etc.
I would set an alarm clock to fill them in the middle of the night while they were screaming full rpm in our drive way.Better luck than some but still a royal pain in the ass for days at a time.
5 years ago we installed a 15k Generac at our home in PA,wont run both ac compressors as some have stated but runs the essentials quietly and with a 500 gallon LP tank for a long time.
I have always changed the oil and filter after a days use and have had zero problems.
As luck would have it our Bay home in MD must be net worked to the same 100 year old grid we just installed the 17k model a few months back along with 6 other neighbors.
If you lose power for several days a year, to me its the only way to fly. Other wise if its for that occasional emergency I would pick up a used Honda or two and hook up a switch directly to your service and go that route.
Good luck!

[Madpoodle]

Madpoodle,Excellent informative post! What part of the country are you in? SO discounts? :)

I'm in So Florida.. We can talk :) :)


Madpoodle opens the door on another issue- you can't look at your load and buy a generator that matches it and expect it to work.

We do the occasional trade fair that's outside- it requires we bring in a 3-phase generator. We typically need at least twice the size comparable to the machine's power demands. Now that's running some fairly large electric motors that are starting at max load amps.

Depending upon the quality of the motor, the starting loads can be triple the running. If they start under a load, it can be even worse..




What about a generator that doesn't have a 240 plug? Just two 120 volt outlets? Same thing, two windings?

I've only seen a couple real small units without a 240 outlet, what is the make/model? I'll be happy to see if I can find out for you.

BTW, if your looking in the portable range, check out the inverters. Honda has em, Yamaha has a 6300 watter now that rocks.. Quiet, efficient, and stable power..

[pullmytrigger]

some great info......some observations......Im looking for something I can roll out of the shop, plug in fire up and go, I dont think Im into a permanent installation......for diesel wouldnt you have to have a whole chitload of diesel stored for use?......last time we had an outage here the gas stations had no gas/diesel cause their pumps needed power to work.....I can get lots of gas out of the boat or any one of 4 vehicales at the house......I think I'll keep my eye out for a big used one probably in the 10-15 kw range.

[RebarBox]

Not to Hijac but The show was ROCKIN last nite!!!! Sorry about the CAPS I can barely talk!!:sifone:

Quinlan


Buckster lost power.:( Not real sure how close he is to computer at work.

I'm taking him a generator this morning to power his home.

[itilldo]

Buying a generator 101:

Generators are like a stereo. Ratings on them are always listed as maximum (peak) output, not continuous (RMS) duty. All generators are subject to a performance factor (PF) rating. Most use a .80 factor, i.e. a 10KW is 8 continuous, 10 peak. Some of the higher quality one's (Yamaha for one) use a .90 PF.

What does this mean to the consumer?? Your genset will produce its maximum rating (10kw) for a short period of time to handle surges and overloads. It will produce the rated output (8kw) on a “continuous” basis. Your generator may also have a “surge” rating. AFAIK, this rating has no standards, but instead seems to be how much of a load the genny will handle for a brief period without the voltage dropping below an undetermined level. As an example, there is a site that lists the Yamaha YG6600DE as having a surge capacity of 18,000 watts. This genset is rated @ 6600 peak, 6000 continuous. On a load bank it will hold a 6KW load @ 123 volts, 60 – 61 HZ all day long. Bump it to 7KW and after a few moments it begins to lose voltage, dropping to approx 110 volts. Bump it to 8KW, and the voltage is below 100 volts, and the engine is at the point of stalling. Whatever load you have on it, let’s say a fridge, is at risk of burning out it’s compressor / fan motors due to low voltage, and if the genny stalls, the risk is compounded.

Then, we get into the next bugaboo: Duty cycles. Not all generators / engines are manufactured to perform at rated output full-time. A duty cycle is how many minutes out of the hour it can do this.. Bummer is most generator manufacturers hide this information. So, your 8KW genset may actually be capable of producing that power for 6 minutes out of every ten without damaging it, or a 60% duty cycle.. Last but not least, a lot of the cheaper genset's use a smaller engine. It is always running at or exceeding its maximum capacity, shortening its life.. There is no replacement for displacement :) :)

To connect to the house: Get a transfer switch. If you’re needing to connect now, first of all yank the meter.. Not only does this prevent feedback from your genny to the lines, it prevents feedback from the lines to your genny.. It also gives the linemen a visual indicator that you have isolated your house from them, and they are not going to die working on your lines.. (FWIW, I have a 400-amp transfer switch on my house, and I still yank the meter when a genny is in use. Not necessary, but again, it's that visual thing..) Next, you need to inspect all the wiring for damage from flying debris. Outside outlets are a prime suspect. Check inside the panels and visually check your walls for water intrusion.. Then, you can wire the genny into the main panel. You want to connect to the 240 side of the genny and let the panel split the voltage. Your genset has two sets of windings, both make 120. If you pull off the one winding all the time, you will burn it up. If you pull evenly across both windings, it will last much longer.. Most of the gensets today have a four-prong connector, separating the neutral from the ground... Your electrician can help you connect it, but make sure you use all four connections if provided.. The generator should be grounded also; I go to the ground rod for my main panel.

Diesel vs Propane: On the average, a 20KW propane burns about 4 GPH. My 30KW diesel burns 17 gallons a day running 24/7. A lot of my customers buy the diesel units so they can switch it to 3 phase during the day for the office/shop, single phase at night for the house. Another drawback to the propane units is the fact that the regulators in them tend to go bad and come out adjustment. Diaphragms dry rot, fuel doesn’t flow, or even worse, leaks.



So, where are we now? Budget for the most generator you can afford.. Then BUY the next size up... FWIW, I sell more gensets the second week after a storm than the first. The people buying them are on their second generator of the event, the first one is toast…


is there info you have for a manual switch gear

[Madpoodle]

I assume you mean a manual transfer switch? Not much to know, you need to figure out how your going to connect the genset, and put the proper connectors on the transfer switch. Hard wired genset is obvious, it's the portables that can be interesting. Look at the 240 outlet on the unit. Small gensets use either an L6-30 3 wire (http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_1001.htm) or a L14-30 4 wire plug. (http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/dept_id_1014.htm) Some of the larger portables will use a 50 amp "Temp Power" or CS636-5C (http://www.LevitonProducts.com/catalog/Leviton_50amp-125-250v-ac-non-nema-locking-plug.htm?sid=B4EFAAC87B42F6F15933144869718171&pid=1208)plug. On a larger portable with a direct connect box, you need to go to cam type connectors (http://www.LevitonProducts.com/catalog/model_17D21.htm?sid=B4EFAAC87B42F6F15933144869718171&pid=1208) to get the full power out of the unit. These are available color coded to ease the connection process, I recommend folks go that route. The genset can be setup with cam type quick connects so you do not have to leave the cables on it, and you can get cam type receptacles (http://www.LevitonProducts.com/catalog/model_17R21-W.htm?sid=B4EFAAC87B42F6F15933144869718171&pid=1208)for the transfer switch.


Mine is setup a bit different from most since I may not always have the same genset.. 400 amp Ronk switch (http://www.ronkelectrical.com/meter_rite_gl.html) (SERIOUS overkill, but that is what size service we put in when we rewired the place since it is only a few bucks more to oversize vs having to redo it down the road if we expand the house)
with a sub panel for the genset side. I had 30 and 50 amp receptacles on it to accommodate a couple different gensets, but I just got a sub-panel for it.
The new sub panel is equipped with an L6-30, L14-30, and a twist lock receptacle (http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_7788-CR.htm?sid=B4EFAAC87B42F6F15933144869718171&pid=1208) for the 50 Amp CS636-5C plug, PLUS cam receptacles.. I have properly sized breakers on the 30 and 50 amp circuits and a 200 amp breaker setup on the cams. When I am on the cams, I feed my neighbor off of the 30 amp. When I am on the 50 amp, I feed them off of the 30 on the genset. I made up cord sets for all the possible connectors, I should be good to go next storm :) :)

[Madpoodle]

BTW, we have used the GE manual transfer switches also with very good results..

[JupiterSunsation]

Learn something new every day.

Most S. FL cities/towns require below ground propane due to aestetics/safety.