Possible new race team for 2020

[Cookee]

Hi Guys,

It's been a while! I raced in the UK for some years and also made race boats with quite a few wins and championships to our credit.

I have been asked by a very good friend of mine who has recently relocated to Florida to possibly start a team for Pro Vee Extreme/Pro Stock Vee/Super Vee Xtreme/Superboat Vee but I'm a little confused as which is what! they all seem to use 26' to 32' hulls with 525 engines with a rev limit. We would like to race in the most popular class with the most races local to Florida - ideally!

I see there is a newish Phantom SV32 for sale, I'm guessing the Imco SCX are the best option for drives for this class? Are there any others for sale that anyone knows of?

Thank's in advance guys!

[Ratickle]

I copied my answer from the other thread and placed the copy here.

Hey big guy, glad to see you around.

That is a loaded question in many ways. First, what class? There are several single engine Vee classes, but the only spec single engine classes (non-GPS maximum speed) are the two canopied classes which were, (before the new names), Vee Lite and Vee Lite Extreme.

Both use modified Bravos. And they actually hold up well, unless you spin the boats out and crack a gimble. With the latest designs from Merc, and possibly upgrades from the Bravo Shop, IMCO, etc, they have lasted multiple seasons with proper care and partial rebuilds in the off season.

As far as organizations go, where the events are, right now it is up in Limbo for a year from now. The second question is does he want to race for fun, or a national championship with a lot of events.

OPA - http://www.oparacing.org/schedule.html Four events in Florida, ten events total
RWO - https://www.raceworldoffshore.global/schedule/ Two events in Florida, three events total
SBI - https://superboat.com/ Actually only one event in Louisiana. (Shows they have the two RWO events).

So, if you're racing for fun, and next year is exactly the same with organizations and events (highly unlikely), get a boat and run six events in Florida. The class for a single engine canopied vee is either Super Vee Lite, Superboat Vee, ProStock Vee, or Super Vee Lite Extreme, depending on engine stock or modified.

If you want to race a full season and get a national championship, go with OPA (at this time). We all have our fingers crossed that the P1/OPA combination will actually invigorate the sport again. But, the new RWO put a monkey wrench in that happening this year. No idea how it will shake out long term, and won't know until after Key West most likely.

[Ratickle]

I guess question number one, are you going to try to make some events this year?

[john acosta]

if you want to run single engine ) in a v type hull then opa has a class a big one very competitive.

There are several will Smith Phantoms 29s around ,And a couple sister ships by spates ( smiths old parnter in the beginning )

The Extremes by spates seem faster in smaller water . The Phantoms Rule the big water.

Either are the best choice.

The fountain s in that class do well

The outerlimits 29 is hard to say as the team running that hull seem to
get caught cheating after each win.

Get a new phantom 32 and have some fun

cheers

[Ratickle]

The next question is, who is going to survive. Which class, which org?

The Pro Stock Vee, utilizing the 525 package, has a maximum length of 30'. All other classes, utilizing a 509CuIn carb engine, have a maximum length of 32'.

So, what to run?

Part depends on if you have a decent engine builder who will assist. Either one lasts quite awhile all things considered. With the reduction in RPM in both classes to 5400, the valvetrains are not giving out so an entire season is not unheard of anymore.

My personal opinion, both classes will survive. But, RWO and SBI, (at this time I'm not sure either will survive), do not have the 525 class as an option.

So, now what?

[john acosta]

sbi is gone.

jc is NOT here anymore.he went bye bye .
sbi is run by two old women and a Mississippi truck driver,

I hope rwo and opa
or opa and rwo make the class one engine .
Geeze how many times ? really
just pick a motor
496 to 510 whatever just pick one

[Ratickle]

I think, for the present few years, it was the best possible compromise. The main problem, some of the organization heads care nothing about the sport or the race teams. If one organization has Vee Lite at a maximum 30' with 525's, the other org makes the exact same class a maximum of 32' with carbureted motors. Why you may ask? The only possible reason is so once somebody builds a boat, they can't race it competitively in the other org. Result, teams leave the sport, race boats sit all over the place, and the sport declines. So, make two classes with almost identical boats in one org and everybody can race, their boats are no longer obsolete. Awesome!

Once again, the sport can grow.

The question is, neither SBI or RWO have both classes. So, what will happen if they actually put on a World's in Key West? Add classes to try to attract boats? Probably the most likely result. But, still a screwed up mess. Change your own rules because you stole an event, one important to the sport, and you need to try to make yourself relevant. Impressive, right?

[john acosta]

rwo opa

sbi is over after this last race. too bad they didn't let go two years ago .
jc deserved to go out on a high note

[Cookee]

Sounds like even more questions than when I started! SBI is done by the sound of it so OPA? Phantom is 30' so fits in all classes so it's just the motor to choose. Are they still making 525's?

As I see it OPA Pro Stock V is 30' running 525's and Super Vee Xtreme is 32' running 525's or a 510 CID motor - I'm guessing this boat qualifies? https://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/58464.

Ideally I would be looking to compete in all 6 Florida races but what setup meets both regulations if any?

[Ratickle]

If you want to compete in all races, and have a competitive chance, that is a good boat. Will's new 32's are competitive and safe. Give him a call at Phantom and have a chat.

Now, even with a 525, that boat is not legal for ProStock Vee. It would be only legal for SVX in OPA and any APBA affiliated organization. But, I do not ever see the two classes coming together into one class because, even thought they need a bit of tweaking in my mind, when OPA and P1 got together and made the rules for both classes, they did a pretty good job.

So, the boat is legal in SBI's and RWO's only single engine Vee Spec Class. It is also legal in OPA's SVX class.

For your question on the 525, no, they are no longer manufactured. However, because of the group with 525's and 30' boats, OPA/P1/APBA has tweaked the rules to where you can have anybody rebuild your 525 and send it to an authorized dyno, and they will inspect it and seal it for a reasonable price.

Buy it and go run. That's a pretty good deal I think.

I believe Will is under contract to build 7 more?

[Ratickle]

OPA Rules

https://static.secure.website/wscfus/8442181/10323557/opa-rule-book-2019.pdf

[Cookee]

Now, even with a 525, that boat is not legal for ProStock Vee. It would be only legal for SVX in OPA and any APBA affiliated organization.

The rules say that is a legal engine, OPA ProStock V rule excerpt:



Engine Build Requirements – ProStock V Class
1. ProStock V team can have their engine rebuilt by any builder of their choice. OPA MUST be notified in
advance
2. After the rebuild, the engine MUST be delivered to OPA for inspection/Dyno, to determine it is legal for
competition.
3. If the engine is determined to be legal, it will be sealed and returned to the team owner. There are no
alterations allowed to the 525 engine package.
4. Maximum cubic inch limitation of 509 cu in
5. Dyno sheets will remain with OPA
6. A standard of 560 HP will be the benchmark plus or minus 20 hp. If an engine falls short of the
benchmark the team will be notified prior to sealing.
7. OPA at its discretion has the right to Dyno any team's engine at any time. If found out of spec, the team
will lose all points for that season, and will be disqualified until such time that the engine is brought back
into spec.
8. All internal parts must remain as OEM spec.
 For example if a team uses an aftermarket crankshaft, it must meet OEM spec as far as weight,
stroke, journal size, external balance, keyway location etc.
9. All Camshafts must remain the original Mercury OEM part.
10. Overbore not to exceed .030 in the engine block, any standard deck standard bore block can be used.
11. No alterations to the cylinder heads will be allowed. surfacing to the deck of the head is allowed, but the
compression must remain under 8.7.
12. Fuel system and intake plenum must remain as produced by Mercury Marine.
13. In other words the intent here is to allow the teams to be able to build their own engines as long as they
remain as a stock 525 engine package. In order to maintain parody in the ProStock V class.
14. The cost for inspection by OPA will be $800.00. The Dyno time will also be $800.00.

Approved Outdrives:
Mercruiser Bravo One, Must comply with applicable rules
Mercruiser Bravo X, XZ, Must comply with applicable rules
Mercruiser Bravo XR, Must comply with applicable rules
Mercruiser Bravo XR Sportmaster Must comply with applicable rules
Mercruiser Bravo XR Short Sportmaster Must comply with applicable rules
IMCO SC and SCX Must comply with applicable rules

And Super Vee Xtreme:
Approved Inboard Engines
 Mercury Racing 525 EFI Motor, with its OEM Stock Specifications, with the following exceptions a
maximum cubic inch limitation of 510 Cubic Inches and a maximum RPM limitation of 5400 RPMS.
 The SVX Class 510 CID Motor with the following specifications:
 Displacement: Maximum 510 CID, with a 4” stroke crankshaft only. Crankshaft throws must be in
accordance with OEM specifications
OPA Rule Book 2019/Version 8 – 05/13/2019 Page 65
 Compression Ratio: Maximum compression ratio of 9.0:1.
 CAM: Any hydraulic roller cam with a maximum intake lift of .610 inch and exhaust lift of .632 inch
measured at the valve with zero lash is the only cam allowed, with an OEM stock gear timing chain,
no belt driven timing chain systems are allowed. Variable cam timing not allowed.
 Block: Chevrolet designed blocks, with their OEM specifications, NO MODIFICATIONS, manufactured
by General Motors, World Products and Dart must be approved by OPA.
 Materials: Crankshaft, Flywheel, connecting rods, pushrods, and wrist pins must be made of steel.
Titanium or other materials are not allowed.
 Heads: The approved cylinder head is the Dart Pro I Head, Part Number 19100010M (bare head) or
19100112M (complete head with valves and springs) with their stock OEM specifications, no
modifications allowed. 1.7 ratio rocker arms on stud mounted rocker arm shafts only. The head
serial numbers must remain on the head and may not be defaced or altered. The Stock Mercury 525
OEM Head with its OEM specifications and no modifications may be used.
 Intake Manifold: Any stock cast intake manifold with a Holly Carburetor 4150 style (size) base may
be used. No fabricated or tunnel ram type manifolds may be used. Intakes may be port matched up
to 1 ½ inches to match cylinder heads. Carburetor spacers or adapters are NOT ALLOWED.
 Induction System: One Holley carburetor 4150 style (size) only is allowed. Naturally aspirated only,
no forced induction allowed.
 Lubrication (Engine): External oil pumps or dry sump systems are not allowed.
 Ignition System: Engines are required to use the MSD Digital or Analog Ignition system limited to
5400 RPMs. Crank triggers and belt drive ignitions are not allowed.

Drives:
Outdrive Specifications:
 Approved Models – The Mercruiser Bravo One, XZ, XR, Sportmaster , Short Sportmaster XR, BMAX, and
Imco SC and SCX Drives are approved for competition.
 The Volvo DPX Duo Prop is approved for competition.


Or am I reading it wrong?

Which is the most popular class?

[Ratickle]

I'm sorry Cookee, you are correct. The engine is legal, just not competitive from what I've seen. The 525 is limited to a maximum of 580 HP on the dyno test, 560 being the average. The 509's they are running, with the single carb and bumped up compression, are all over 600 HP.

The hull is not legal. It is 32' from top of transom to tip of bow I believe, but double check. Maximum on the ProStock is 30'.

It is a twin step, so it has to run 250 lbs heavier than the single step boats under any APBA organization. (Triple steps and more have to run 500 lbs heavier).

If you want to talk to some of the racers in the class, let me know and I'll PM you a couple numbers.

[Ratickle]

I still think that boat is a decent price.

[Cookee]

Looking at the OPA results the Pro Stock Vee is the best supported class, the Phantom is a bit over the budget so does anyone have any idea of where I might find a decent boat under $100K? of is that a Unicorn? Thanks in advance!

[Ratickle]

But the Pro Stock Vee boats, boats with completely stock 525's, are not competitive in SBI or RWO with their modified carb engines.

I'll do some checking. The class is making a big comeback and all of the ones that were for sale reasonably, have been sold in the last year and a half.

[Cookee]

I thought SBI was finished? If we only race in Florida we will only be missing one RWO race as far as I can see? The 510 carb boats won’t fit the most competitive class in OPA if I read it all correctly?

[Ratickle]

Correct.

Make sure you watch the race tomorrow. I don't know what time it will be on in your neck of the woods though.

[Ratickle]

At least I think they are finished. And, for RWO to have any chance of success, they are going to have to add the class to their rulebook.

[Cookee]

Correct.

Make sure you watch the race tomorrow. I don't know what time it will be on in your neck of the woods though.

Watch it where?

[Ratickle]

On the Lake TV Facebook Page

https://www.facebook.com/laketv

[Ratickle]

Saturday, June 1st: RACE DAY‬

* ‪8:00 am - Mandatory Racer's Meeting on lower level banquet room Camden on the Lake‬
* ‪10:30 am - 11:00 Opening Ceremonies ‬
* ‪11:00 am - Start of Lake Race ‬2019. Open to public
* ‪5:00 pm - End of Racing‬
* ‪6:00 pm - Award Ceremony on Camden's outdoor stage. Open to public
* ‪Noon - 6:00 pm - Pool Party with DJ Kaziem at Lazy Gator‬
* ‪8:00 pm - Kricket Alley Band on Camden's outdoor stage (no cover)‬
* ‪9:00 pm - Rod Tuffcurls & The Bench Press Band at Shady Gators
* ‪9:00 pm - Bikini Contest at Shady Gators‬
* ‪7:30 pm - Opening act at Lazy Gator
Billy Ray Cyrus Relief Concert at 9:30 pm.
Portion of all ticket sales will benefit storm and flood victims in Eldon & Jefferson City

[Ratickle]

They are live now

https://www.facebook.com/pg/laketv/videos/?ref=page_internal

[Cookee]

Thanks for that - I'm afraid I didn't have time to watch it all but it looked like an amazing event.

After much discussion with my friend and having gone through many difficult times with the now ex-governing body for powerboat racing in the UK we have decided trying to deal with 3 sets of rules and governing bodies (even if it became 2) in a foreign country (even if you guys do speak English) it would all be a bit too much.

However all is not lost and racing's loss with hopefully be Poker run's gain!

The focus is more on a fast cat with non race engines running on widely available gas and reliable, a cabin would be a great bonus as he lives on the lakes near Orlando and has two youngish kids. 6 seats open top, fast enough to keep up and not be last but not dangerous! Sorry for all the questions!

ps not to rule out a fast V bottom!

[Ratickle]

My personal opinion is, it will become one org in the next year, I doubt 2 will survive. I believe SBI is already done. There has been no promotional info about the Louisiana race at all.

But, even if it is two, to survive they will have to adopt APBA rules, or at least duplicate them. I believe that will happen this year before the New York race by RWO. Otherwise they will have no boats.

A cat with a cabin is extremely rare. I believe Pete made 5 36's and about the same in the 46's, (one that will be coming out of paint tomorrow). What size and power are you looking for?

[Cookee]

I think Poker Runs will suit him better - he likes a party!

38' plus, power is down to maintenance really, nothing that needs regular expensive rebuilds so a pair of 6-800's and solid drives, reliability is more important than outright speed but he won't be happy being last/slowest! Monohulls are still an option - How many Florida Poker runs are there and when is the season?

[Ratickle]

https://flpowerboat.com/

https://www.jacksonvilleriverrally.org/

https://ftmyersoffshore.com/

[Ratickle]

There are also some non-organized. Like Ryan Beckley's New Year's day Joey Gratton Remembrance fun run.

[Cookee]

He is actually on Paradise Island Bahama's where he's having a house built and so he's going to go to the Poker Run and meet some of the people this weekend, he may even host a party at the new house which has a considerable sized dock!

[Ratickle]

Is he planning on driving the boat back and forth between Paradise Island and Florida for events?

[Cookee]

No he has moved to the mainland now, long story!!!!

[Ratickle]

What area?

[Cookee]

What area?

Orlando by a lake

[Ratickle]

Center of everything, but not on the Gulf or Atlantic.

We bought a place in Port Charlotte.

[Ratickle]

Here is one of those rare cats for sale.

https://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/60131

[Ratickle]

Is that kind of what he is looking for?

[Cookee]

Is that kind of what he is looking for?

Hi!

Sorry I've been away playing golf and a quick trip to Paris for some family stuff.

Yes that boat would be great! Are the 540ci motors reliable? I guess 650+hp each?

[Ratickle]

Depends on who builds them, and with what parts.

I can do some checking and see if I can find out anything if you'd like.

[Cookee]

No that’s ok, I’ll do due diligence on whatever motors are in the boat he really wants, I assume several engine builders build those motors? What would be a nice reliable HP for an engine that size?

[Ratickle]

Most that are well built are in the 625 to 650 HP range naturally aspirated. Mine are 635 HP at 6000 RPM. A 540 is a 502 tall deck, bored and stroked. A really good engine. The Merc Bulldogs were 540's. The Merc's were low HP, only 470 at the props, but easy to make more.

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1440

The ones in this boat, with the blowers, I would guess are in the 750 HP range with 5 or 6 lbs boost? But that is just a wild ass guess.

[Cookee]

Ok that’s helpful thank you. I guess the most important things are reliable HP without massive maintenance costs, with or without super chargers?

[Ratickle]

Supercharges work well, if you keep the boost low enough to not cause issues when you end up with only 89 octane available on the water.

Normally in the 3 to 5 lb area.

[Cookee]

How fast would this boat be with the Whipples? http://www.tresmartinperformance.com/listings/2003-38-cigarette-top-gun-184999

[Ratickle]

Don't know, but Tres was just up here in Michigan teaching a new boat owner how to drive.

Give him a call, he should be very truthful. Has an honest reputation. Look up, https://www.performanceboatschool.com/

I'll send out some inquiries on the boat too.