Warpath!

[LEOPAJM]

Congrats Doc !

[lucy]

Here is the Old Subtle Approach
thank you sharing the photos and happy holidays to you and your lovely family.!! stay warm up there.:seeya:

[lucy]

Thanks Lucy, she will be in great hands, i can promise that. She will be a trailer queen during the week and tear up the race course on sundays. I can officially she is mine now, just need to pick her up. Im very excited
Dr. G

awesome!!:driving::cheers2:

[McCaffertee]

Going testing!
49913
How in the heck do you upload/post a pic?

[MarylandMark]

How in the heck do you upload/post a pic?

That worked and it looks flippin unbelievable!!!

[MrCig]

thank you sharing the photos and happy holidays to you and your lovely family.!! stay warm up there.:seeya:

Thanks Lucy same to you. Take care of my little brother down there.

Mark:cheers2:

[Thunderman]

Congratulations Gary on the purchase of a great Apache. What HP motors are you thinking of getting and what kind of speed are you hopping to achieve?

[DrGaryDC]

Thanks Thunderman, we will be running class 3 which is 95mph. We are going to run some blown big cubic inch Rogers Speed Shop motors and will probably keep the boost down to a minimum. For some poker runs and weekend blasts, will change the pulley and should run well over 100
G

[BattleCry]

Thanks Lucy same to you. Take care of my little brother down there.

Mark:cheers2:


It takes a strong liver and a huge bar tab to take care of your little brother. :D

[BattleCry]

I was just in Georgia and Joe Kinser's place. The 47 Negative Reaction is still there and alive. He doesn't use it much, but it is ready to go. What a beautiful sight to see the Apache sitting side-by-side with his yellow 47 Jaguar cat Wild Thing.

I was also looked at the two 36's, Drillin It and Geronimo RaceBoat, at Mr. Smith's place. They are both still clean, covered, heated, and in dry storage on the trailer.

[MarylandMark]

Get any pics BattleCry?

[Geronimo36]

I was also looked at the two 36's, Drillin It and Geronimo RaceBoat, at Mr. Smith's place. They are both still clean, covered, heated, and in dry storage on the trailer.

Nice! Drillin-It is probably one of the best set up 36's out there! The combination of short-stagger and power is pretty darn good!! :driving:

Geronimo is the cats meow as well but from what I hear from Bobby the setup on Drillin-it is the cats azz!:USA:

[lucy]

It takes a strong liver and a huge bar tab to take care of your little brother. :D

Hi Andy! I have him under control!!(not) LOL!! Mark I think your brother needs a Lion Tamer!! he does look cute with that black hat!!:)

[DrGaryDC]

Lucy, you are just having way too much fun. Im doing something wrong here:)
Dr. G

[lucy]

I went to lots of planning meetings and I applied them to my own life planning!. Gary I have a question for you; Why did you choose Apache over the other brands of boats you were considering??

[DrGaryDC]

I grew up going to the races when racing was racing, 80's. Ive looked at most everything out there. Yes, the new technology is very fast, however, i dont believe the quality is the same. Im not looking to glass my boat back together after races like i see alot do today. Also, when i was racing in the bounty hunter, 79 cigarette, just the history of the old boats create some much attention and inspiration, kinda like an old restored classic car. Ive always admired the lines of the apache and was looking for a 3 man standup. Its not easy being 6'8". I tried "shoehorning" myself into some of these canopied boat,(cool looking boats) just not very practical. I believe i can get everything im looking for from my apache. No issues with trailoring and permits (cats), can store in my dads shop, can fit on our lift at the house (no modifications), and will be very fast!
Dr. G

[lucy]

you made a great decision!! one of my girlfriends is very tall could not take her on the poker run in canopied boats. how about graphics and a name for your boat do you have anything in mind????

[boatme]

How about Chiropache

[lucy]

I like it!:)

[DrGaryDC]

Thats a good one

[DrGaryDC]

Dahm Lucy, you trying to kill all the guys here on serious with pics of you and your friends:)

[MarylandMark]

I love all 3 pics Lucy posted!

That skull ROCKS IT!! Pic #3 comment is self explanatory

[lucy]

is this the Tu Tama boat?

[xlr8by]

is this the Tu Tama boat?

Lucy I am not sure, but I believe that the current owner is on this website and if his avatar is the side of his boat, that is not the current paint job, but it could have been the old one maybe? See this post http://67.192.255.161/forums/showpost.php?p=397254&postcount=190

[Geronimo36]

Is Tu Tama, RHC's old boat?

[10x]

It was a sad day, just glad fred ippolitto and his crew were ok.... I was a half mile behind them when it happened and by the time I passed by all you could see was the bow sticking straight up. :(

Word is they were running fast and loose. There were literally 5-6' rollers in the hudson that poker run with about 150 boats at the start. I still had my Panther and we could only run 50 mph in that slop. It was probably the most amount of boats ever at the NYC poker run. They went skyward approaching 100 mph, tripped, stuffed and barrel rolled at high speed.... All we could see was water.... :(

Took pics of it with the hatches open, on the dock right before we all took off that day. The accident must've happened right behind us, cause we never seen it take place.

[boatme]

Took pics of it with the hatches open, on the dock right before we all took off that day. The accident must've happened right behind us, cause we never seen it take place.

We were headed to NY the next week to look at Freddy's Boat a friend of mine was going to buy it after a sea trial

I called him later on saturday to tell him that i saw a pic of the boat with 3 foot of the bow sticking out of the water at the poker run So much for that purchase

[Nykamp]

Lucy that 36 is in the middle east area.

[BRD]

Is Tu Tama, RHC's old boat?

yep .... Frank hows it going ?

[Geronimo36]

Took pics of it with the hatches open, on the dock right before we all took off that day. The accident must've happened right behind us, cause we never seen it take place.

I didn't even know you were there, it's too bad we didn't get to hang out. I still had my Scarab, actually had the for sale sign on the back that year. ;) That year had a rediculous number of boats... One of the most hectic starts I remember in the 11 years I've done that run. This coming year I might do something different, maybe AC...we'll see how it goes...:cheers2:

I remember Fred pulling into the gas dock Friday evening.... My buddies knew I was looking for a 36' so when Fred pulled in, I asked him how he liked the boat. His response was; "Best boat I've ever owned." Famous last words I suppose. :(:(

After the poker run my buddy Steve says to me; "You still wanna buy the Apache?" I guess I did... ;)


We were headed to NY the next week to look at Freddy's Boat a friend of mine was going to buy it after a sea trial

I called him later on saturday to tell him that i saw a pic of the boat with 3 foot of the bow sticking out of the water at the poker run So much for that purchase

That sucks.... I didn't even know it was for sale.. He got a great deal on that boat.. I remember the ebay auctions... That's the year you and I met.


yep .... Frank hows it going ?

I wanted to buy that boat....it was just outta my price range. Bobby hooked us up when it was for sale.

Things are good, busy as hell right now, it doesn't even feel like Christmas. I guess I can't complain, just working hard, keepin the ship afloat!!

Hey, ya know we never closed the loop on the Concept... My buddy wound up buying a left-over with twins from Tomes Landing. He uses the Concept more than his 51 OL these days!

[ChiefApache]

Is Tu Tama, RHC's old boat?

Yes it is, so no Lucy, that is not the Tu Tuma scheme. I need to go find it.

[Thunderman]

Were all 41 Apaches made of Kevlar? How about the 36's?

[Geronimo36]

Were all 41 Apaches made of Kevlar? How about the 36's?

As far as I know about the 36's some of them were Kevlar. The one that rolled in NYC was a Kevlar layup.

[Geronimo36]

Yes it is, so no Lucy, that is not the Tu Tuma scheme. I need to go find it.

In an email set to me by Bob in 2004' about 2 months before I bought mine, is this it? "Frank, 1996 MerCruiser 600 SC / bravos 300+ hrs fresh water lake Erie boat, $$$130K Clean 75+MPH"

[ChiefApache]

In an email set to me by Bob in 2004' about 2 months before I bought mine, is this it? "Frank, 1996 MerCruiser 600 SC / bravos 300+ hrs fresh water lake Erie boat, $$$130K Clean 75+MPH"

Yes, that is Tu Tuma, thanks Frank. Roger had no name on the boat when he owned it. When Rob bought it he took his time and named the boat the last year or so. He did well.

Thanks to Rob F who owns Tu Tuma, we own our Apache. We too were after Roger's boat and almost had Rob talked into selling her to us. Things worked out the way they should have. :)

[xlr8by]

Were all 41 Apaches made of Kevlar? How about the 36's?

Not sure on the 36' but I believe all the 41' were made from Kevlar and 5 were carbon/kevlar which are Sam,Tonto, Tatonka, Geronimo, and Ghost Runner (originally named "Take Over")

[Geronimo36]

Not sure the benefit of Kevlar back then? It was strong but also heavy and sometimes there was lay-up problems with the kevlar back in those days. Did they use less glass layers to compensate for the Kevlar and the added weight?

I wonder how much lighter the Carbon 41's are than the regular?

[Powerabout]

Carbons stiff to compress and Kevlar wont stretch or tear
You can sand carbon with your finger and whatever you sand kevlar with hasn't been invented yet
Using them without an epoxy layup is almost a waste of good cloth

[xlr8by]

Not sure the benefit of Kevlar back then? It was strong but also heavy and sometimes there was lay-up problems with the kevlar back in those days. Did they use less glass layers to compensate for the Kevlar and the added weight?

I wonder how much lighter the Carbon 41's are than the regular?
If you scroll to 5:28 of this video it says the Apache 41' using Kevlar is 1/3 lighter than fiberglass (granted this video is not the most accurate as they say Warpath is running 120mph :) ). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_6vdTEChas Can't help besides this...

[Thunderman]

My main question is, are all 41,s made of kevlar?

[DAREDEVIL]

my main question is, are all 41,s made of kevlar?

no !!!!

[Thunderman]

no !!!!

Thanks Daredevil. Happy to see you back. You are always so eloquent and infomative. Now do you or anybody else know which 41,s were made out of what? p.s. Im gonna answer for you. no!!!!

[lucy]

Marry Christmas to you all!! Have a wonderful day and enjoy your families. You only have one life make it count!!:)

[Thunderman]

Not sure on the 36' but I believe all the 41' were made from Kevlar and 5 were carbon/kevlar which are Sam,Tonto, Tatonka, Geronimo, and Ghost Runner (originally named "Take Over")

Sorry, missed your post. Thanks for the reply.

[Thunderman]

Marry Christmas to you all!! Have a wonderful day and enjoy your families. You only have one life make it count!!:)

Does that dog know how lucky he is? Merry Christmas!!!

[Magnum Mark]

Marry Christmas to you all!! Have a wonderful day and enjoy your families. You only have one life make it count!!:)

MERRy XMAS back 2 you.....m.m...

[MikeyFIN]

So time to bump the thread

Which Apaches have a
1. Notch
2. Rocker
3. Hook
4. Straight

Bottom?

[xlr8by]

this thread is too quiet :(

[DrGaryDC]

Its come to a grinding halt, lol

[MikeyFIN]

Not to a halt but has slowed down.. I got IRL stuff that has to do with the thread.

[xlr8by]

So time to bump the thread

Which Apaches have a
1. Notch
2. Rocker
3. Hook
4. Straight

Bottom?

Not to avoid your question, but besides the transom angle being different for the earlier vs. later boats, I do not know anything else to help with this.

[xlr8by]

Its come to a grinding halt, lol

Post some pics of your new boat when you get time! :) Any idea on what name or graphics you are going to go with?

[MikeyFIN]

Not to avoid your question, but besides the transom angle being different for the earlier vs. later boats, I do not know anything else to help with this.

Hopefully my question didn´t stop the thread!!!
Where is the line drawn in earlier vs later ?

[DrGaryDC]

My Apache is being picked up Saturday in Ft. Lauderdale. The boat still resembles the way Magnum Mark had it. There are a few cosmetic modifications i plan to change. I am still going toward the name Wellness on the Warpath, compliments of Lucy. I wanted a name that will carry out the wellness revolution (my business) as well as the apache legacy. What does everyone think??

[DrGaryDC]

Here is a recent pic of the engines

[DrGaryDC]

Mercury 800SC
I know, I know, they are not Roger Speed Shop motors, but that is ok for the moment

[xlr8by]

Hopefully my question didn´t stop the thread!!!
Where is the line drawn in earlier vs later ?

I do not have a definite line in the sand for what was the last boat with the original transom angle. I know that Warpath, Warpath II, The Team Apache Boat (banner boat), all have the earlier transom, and I think Stinson said in a prior post that it was only the early boats. Off the top of my head Lethal Weapon, Island Runner, Shaka, etc. do not have it so the change took place somewhere in between, I know it does not answer your question too well :(. Anybody?

[xlr8by]

Here is a recent pic of the engines

Dr,
The name sounds great and is very fitting for an Apache! The motors look good as well, that is one clean engine room!! I can't wait to see and hear it running next year!

[warpath]

My Apache is being picked up Saturday in Ft. Lauderdale. The boat still resembles the way Magnum Mark had it. There are a few cosmetic modifications i plan to change. I am still going toward the name Wellness on the Warpath, compliments of Lucy. I wanted a name that will carry out the wellness revolution (my business) as well as the apache legacy. What does everyone think??

Do your boat your way, there are no rights or wrongs. You bought an awesome boat. Most people would criticize the expense, dedication and effort needed to maintain and to keep these boats running but take a ride in one on the right day and really... very few things could make you feel so alive. Specially now when life can be so monotonous. Congratulations! You made a choice to try to feel alive! How can you put a price on that?

[Geronimo36]

Do your boat your way, there are no rights or wrongs. You bought an awesome boat.

Great advice warpath! I remember when I was doing my re-rig everyone on the internet knew the best way to do it...the shoulda, woulda, coulda's were....:willy_nilly: After a while I just ignored it, did my own thing and in due time it came out exactly how "I" wanted it!:driving:

One thing though, make sure you have reliable information sources. People who know these Apaches, have spent time dialing them in and get them to run the way they're supposed to.

[DrGaryDC]

I totally agree! It reminds me of the personal trainers at my gym who are 50lbs over weight or the financial investors who pull up in a Ford Focus and want to invest your money:)
Dr. G

[wananewboat]

Gary, Any recent pictures of the rest of the boat?

[lucy]

could not finish the year with out wishing you all a very happy new year!!:sifone::sifone: you have being part of my life for many years!! Besos from Colombia!!:kiss::kiss::kiss:!

[DAREDEVIL]

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO U ASWELL !!!!!!!!!!

SEE U in 2010 .:kiss:

[DrGaryDC]

Well, she is officially on her way to NJ to her new home. She will be well taken care of. Will be finalizing on her name, some minor cosmetic changes, and begin working on the new motors. Looking forward to build the new monster motors for her. Its gonna be a great year!!!!

[lowblue320]

Well, she is officially on her way to NJ to her new home. She will be well taken care of. Will be finalizing on her name, some minor cosmetic changes, and begin working on the new motors. Looking forward to build the new monster motors for her. Its gonna be a great year!!!!

Can't waite to see it winning some races and attending some poker runs.

[Ratickle]

I totally agree! It reminds me of the personal trainers at my gym who are 50lbs over weight or the financial investors who pull up in a Ford Focus and want to invest your money:)
Dr. G

Should be your sig line Doc.......:sifone:

[Ratickle]

could not finish the year with out wishing you all a very happy new year!!:sifone::sifone: you have being part of my life for many years!! Besos from Colombia!!:kiss::kiss::kiss:!

Happy New Year Lucy!!!!

Paul and Terri

[Thunderman]

[QUOTE=DrGaryDC some minor cosmetic changes, and begin working on the new motors. Looking forward to build the new monster motors for her. Its gonna be a great year!!!![/QUOTE]

What drives are you going to use?

[DrGaryDC]

Going to keep the 3a's and just play around with some props. Have a set of 5's to try as well. Plenty of testing prior to first race

[Thunderman]

What differs between 3a's and number 5's? Sounds like fun! Keep us posted.

[Thunderman]

If you look at the things that become timeless, collectible, legendary, etc. They are usually things that fit one or more of these criteria;
Exceptional performance for their time.
Uncompromising build quality.
A legacy of winning even against supposedly more modern designs even under the most challenging conditions.
Colorful and complex people and stories related to the item.:willy_nilly:
Hand build not mass produced, made in limited numbers.
Each Apache boat has its own unique story and specifications.
Every manufacture of boats, cars, motorcycles, would like to win in racing but the ones who usually win are the ones with the most will and commitment to winning. The primary goal of most manufactures is to SELL their product and used racing as a tool to promote sales. NOT the case for APACHE winning in racing was their PRIMARY goal!! selling the boats only a bonus reaffirmation of their success.:)
In reality the price and desirability of these Apache boats is limited to the few people who know of their history, Unlike Ferrari for example, of which every one knows about, Nonetheless is my opinion, Apache's history is just as interesting and its winning record, significant and undeniable in its sport. No other boat manufacture the I know of can truly make this claim!!!:USA::USA::USA:

:iagree:

[MikeyFIN]

Gotta Agree with Lucy on the Apache having Racing as top priority thenagain Apache wasn´t alone but Apache has that "special" SoFla Drama around it.

CUV made 0 pleasure versions that I know of and the owners of CUV´s, well mostly European Aristocrats so Drama or no Drama, take your pick but all around the tabloids in the day and getting a lot more ink.
And come to think of it the same philosophy that was applied in Apache, CUV and Larry Smith also applied for Lotus,Ferrari and Porsche and in that order regarding the will to please the audience...
How many pleasure versions vs raceboats did LS make which reputation got washed by Wellcraft ?
Guess the total number is less than Apache raceboats?

I´ve always wondered is the Legacy of Apaches just an American thing as seems overseas it doesn´t carry that high, even a Cig or a Magnum is a match.
The Brits especially state that Apache had their asses handed to them against the European competition and back in the day and wasn´t a threat in the toughest of them all, CTC race.

I personally like Apaches a lot ( Because of the 41 being Don Aronows last baby) but would also consider a CUV Cougar or a LS raceboat as an alternative (Did I say that).

There´s a lot of other interesting stuff among those the audience knows nothing about and especially the Brits and Italians are renown for building only raceboats and caring less about selling on monday as those behind the builds are Load€d with ca£h in other busin€$$€$ and keep a very low profil£ of it.

This is a Very good thread that IMO definitely needs the Competitors threads alongside just to relive the days.

[Sean Stinson]

So time to bump the thread

Which Apaches have a
1. Notch
2. Rocker
3. Hook
4. Straight

Bottom?

1) Most
2) All
3) a few
4) Most

[Sean Stinson]

What differs between 3a's and number 5's? Sounds like fun! Keep us posted.

The drive height as measured on the vertical shaft but you already knew that I am sure!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

I do not have a definite line in the sand for what was the last boat with the original transom angle. I know that Warpath, Warpath II, The Team Apache Boat (banner boat), all have the earlier transom, and I think Stinson said in a prior post that it was only the early boats. Off the top of my head Lethal Weapon, Island Runner, Shaka, etc. do not have it so the change took place somewhere in between, I know it does not answer your question too well :(. Anybody?

All you have to do is look at the back of the boat and you can tell.....if the transom has a little angle just under the rub rail then it is a new transom if not it is an old transom!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

Going to keep the 3a's and just play around with some props. Have a set of 5's to try as well. Plenty of testing prior to first race

How many sets of props do you have Gary

[MikeyFIN]

1) Most
2) All
3) a few
4) Most



Lol Guess the No3´s do not wanna be public :)

[DrGaryDC]

You can check on the driveline section, we have been discussing about 3's vs 5's for weeks

[Ratickle]

You can check on the driveline section, we have been discussing about 3's vs 5's for weeks

Sean's been lost......:)


Sean, you must have some input for the 3 vs 5 thread......

[Thunderman]

CUV made 0 pleasure versions that I know of and the owners of CUV´s, well mostly European Aristocrats so Drama or no Drama, take your pick but all around the tabloids in the day and getting a lot more ink.
And come to think of it the same philosophy that was applied in Apache, CUV and Larry Smith also applied for Lotus,Ferrari and Porsche and in that order regarding the will to please the audience...
How many pleasure versions vs raceboats did LS make which reputation got washed by Wellcraft ?
Guess the total number is less than Apache raceboats?

I´ve always wondered is the Legacy of Apaches just an American thing as seems overseas it doesn´t carry that high, even a Cig or a Magnum is a match.
The Brits especially state that Apache had their asses handed to them against the European competition and back in the day and wasn´t a threat in the toughest of them all, CTC race.


There´s a lot of other interesting stuff among those the audience knows nothing about and especially the Brits and Italians are renown for building only raceboats and caring less about selling on monday as those behind the builds are Load€d with ca£h in other busin€$$€$ and keep a very low profil£ of it.

Im preaty sure that apache was less concerned than the others in making a profit, mainly when you consider the source of the money used and the nature of the companies owner. Also, Ferrari in the times of Enzo was only interested in racing . Porsche and Lotus though remarkable where just a little more into it for the money generated by the sales.

[Magnum Mark]

cuv made 0 pleasure versions that i know of and the owners of cuv´s, well mostly european aristocrats so drama or no drama, take your pick but all around the tabloids in the day and getting a lot more ink.
And come to think of it the same philosophy that was applied in apache, cuv and larry smith also applied for lotus,ferrari and porsche and in that order regarding the will to please the audience...
How many pleasure versions vs raceboats did ls make which reputation got washed by wellcraft ?
Guess the total number is less than apache raceboats?

I´ve always wondered is the legacy of apaches just an american thing as seems overseas it doesn´t carry that high, even a cig or a magnum is a match.
The brits especially state that apache had their asses handed to them against the european competition and back in the day and wasn´t a threat in the toughest of them all, ctc race.


There´s a lot of other interesting stuff among those the audience knows nothing about and especially the brits and italians are renown for building only raceboats and caring less about selling on monday as those behind the builds are load€d with ca£h in other busin€$$€$ and keep a very low profil£ of it.

im preaty sure that apache was less concerned than the others in making a profit, mainly when you consider the source of the money used and the nature of the companies owner. Also, ferrari in the times of enzo was only interested in racing . Porsche and lotus though remarkable where just a little more into it for the money generated by the sales.



ben himself told me that the european competition was heavy diesel powered boats that ran past yellow warpath..the warpath was so lite they had a hard time keeping it in the water...old money vs new money..cya..

[Sean Stinson]

Sean's been lost......:)


Sean, you must have some input for the 3 vs 5 thread......

I will go check it out bro!!!!

[Thunderman]

ben himself told me that the european competition was heavy diesel powered boats that ran past yellow warpath..the warpath was so lite they had a hard time keeping it in the water...old money vs new money..cya..

Some people on this thread would never admit that a heavier boat could be faster in rough seas but I think, common sense would tell you that there are some advantages to a heavier boat.

[Sean Stinson]

Thanks Daredevil. Happy to see you back. You are always so eloquent and infomative. Now do you or anybody else know which 41,s were made out of what? p.s. Im gonna answer for you. no!!!!

Hold up there trigger.....every 41 ever built was built of Kevlar....some just happened to have carbon fiber in their lay-up as well!!!!!

[Thunderman]

Hold up there trigger.....every 41 ever built was built of Kevlar....some just happened to have carbon fiber in their lay-up as well!!!!!

Thanks, Tex! Sean how much $ was a 41 when new, ready to race back in 85-87?

[Sean Stinson]

I remember that the pleasure versions were retailing around 200k - 300k and they went up from there depending on options this was in 88 era!!!!!

I used to have the brochures but Thad Allens Apache never returned them before they went belly up!!!!!

[LEOPAJM]

Some people on this thread would never admit that a heavier boat could be faster in rough seas but I think, common sense would tell you that there are some advantages to a heavier boat.

AMEN !!! No question about it !!!!

[ChiefApache]

Some people on this thread would never admit that a heavier boat could be faster in rough seas but I think, common sense would tell you that there are some advantages to a heavier boat.

Agreed and we've experienced it oursevles.

[Geronimo36]

Agreed and we've experienced it oursevles.

Agreed, it's the whole reason I got one!! And after riding in my Panther for years my wife feels the same way! :USA:

[Nykamp]

In 1989 a full race 41 was $400,000.00.

[xlr8by]

In 1989 a full race 41 was $400,000.00.

What kind of power and drives was that back in 89?

[Nykamp]

#6's full stagger with C&G 800's, and the big C 600 dual ram tabs. I don't know if that was with or without the Myco.

[xlr8by]

#6's full stagger with C&G 800's, and the big C 600 dual ram tabs. I don't know if that was with or without the Myco.

Very interesting thanks for posting! Any ideas what a Top Gun was going for in the late 80's to compare to the price of a pleasure 41'?

[warpath]

ben himself told me that the european competition was heavy diesel powered boats that ran past yellow warpath..the warpath was so lite they had a hard time keeping it in the water...old money vs new money..cya..

Both Warpath's are believed to be among the heaviest of 41 race Apaches, I guess sometimes not heavy enough.

[Team Tsunami]

Very interesting thanks for posting! Any ideas what a Top Gun was going for in the late 80's to compare to the price of a pleasure 41'?

I have the price sheets for most Cig's in the mid 80's. In 1987 a Top Gun with Hawks 572's and #3's with external Steering, Headers, and Kevlar lay-up was 259K. The kevlar lay-up was a 15,000 option!

[DAREDEVIL]

Hold up there trigger.....every 41 ever built was built of Kevlar....some just happened to have carbon fiber in their lay-up as well!!!!!

Sean, SORRY...but why do they dust white and not yellow when u grind them ?????:rolleyes:

I think, its that they are glass....and some have kevlar in them ???????:eek:

[MikeyFIN]

Im preaty sure that apache was less concerned than the others in making a profit, mainly when you consider the source of the money used and the nature of the companies owner. Also, Ferrari in the times of Enzo was only interested in racing . Porsche and Lotus though remarkable where just a little more into it for the money generated by the sales.

Offtopic.

In the Times...really when Colin Chapman was in charge for Lotus and Ferdinand Porsche both companies was in fact more devoted to Racing and extreme in their OWN designs than Ferrari who in the beginning relied on old Alfa Romeos...and lets not go in there... I know the Ferrari and Alfa History more than well.
Today... well all have gone south and Ferrari more than anyone with even selling jogging shoes so I´m glad Apache actually has the story it had and didn´t get watered down like the others.

[MikeyFIN]

Some people on this thread would never admit that a heavier boat could be faster in rough seas but I think, common sense would tell you that there are some advantages to a heavier boat.

Heavier and most of all Bigger....plus the diesels at the time was Cats... Big Cats.
Buzzis IVECO series springs to mind and some other tin cats I´ve witnessed personally in the med (50ft 4 engine Cougar ,see below ) so seems Don Aronow was right on the money.
He liked heavier boats in the rough and personally I can attest he was right.

Apaches was at the time 41´s, so was CUV´s, but Cougars..46->. La Gran Argentina 55, CESA 1882 53 and so on...
The writing was/is on the wall, not even a Apache 47 will cut it in Cowes for example.

http://fbdesign.it/historic%20boats.php
http://www.islandpulse.co.uk/b2/cowes-torquay-cowes/

Plus Europeans have always liked cutting edge technology, surface drives multiple trannies, high rpm diesels, aero and hydrodynamic aids and other crazy stuff....
because they have had the money to play with and had bigtime racing connections.

http://www.seabreeze.com.au/News/Power%20Boats/The-era-of-the-gentlemen-racers_2449214.aspx

So yes the thread is fitting... A Warpath...as that´s just what it was for the native.

Good and proud heritage in it´s own.

:seeya:

[MikeyFIN]

Sean, SORRY...but why do they dust white and not yellow when u grind them ?????:rolleyes:

I think, its that they are glass....and some have kevlar in them ???????:eek:

When you sand composite you mostly sand the bonding material which is white even if its glass or epoxy, with carbon it goes light gray at most.

Don´t ask how I know.

[Thunderman]

Different conditions favor one design over another. There isnt a boat that is better in every condition. Also every race team concentrates their development on their most probable conditions. Why set up for Cowes if youre going to race in Key West and vise versa. In the Warpath video theres a reference to the 50' Popeyes not being able to keep up. Who made those cats?

[Sean Stinson]

Sean, SORRY...but why do they dust white and not yellow when u grind them ?????:rolleyes:

I think, its that they are glass....and some have kevlar in them ???????:eek:

That would be the resin stud if you hit the Kevlar it wont turn to dust it gets fuzzy!!!!!!!!

[boatme]

Sean knows about fuzzy

[Sean Stinson]

Sean knows about fuzzy

Absolutely bro!!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

I will scan the price sheets from the Apache brochures from 88

[MikeyFIN]

In the Warpath video theres a reference to the 50' Popeyes not being able to keep up. Who made those cats?

The right question would be who rigged them, a big cat even in calm water and especially there, rigged right, with proper power will walz away.

[Sean Stinson]

The right question would be who rigged them, a big cat even in calm water and especially there, rigged right, with proper power will walz away.

I am pretty sure it was rigged right......Al had the best working on his stuff!!!!!

Sirois and Idoni to name a few!!!!!!!

[MikeyFIN]

I do not worship names much as everybody makes mistakes.
Got a reminder of that in KW in 2009.

Then what was the problem (why the boat didn´t run at the moment) is the valid question.

[Sean Stinson]

I do not worship names much as everybody makes mistakes.
Got a reminder of that in KW in 2009.

Then what was the problem (why the boat didn´t run at the moment) is the valid question.

Because the water was huge and it was sinking......

[Sean Stinson]

Big water and the cat no likee each other!!!!! Said in my best spanglish accent!!!!!

[Geronimo36]

I do not worship names much as everybody makes mistakes.
Got a reminder of that in KW in 2009.

Please bless us with your infinite wisdom. :driving:

Sounds like sour grapes to me....:USA:

[Powerabout]

Hey Mikey
Speaking of set up right..how about all the single shear bolts on the steering of El Boss....scary!

[MikeyFIN]

Please bless us with your infinite wisdom. :driving:

Sounds like sour grapes to me....:USA:

Just a reminder do not take anything for granted.

No sourness in what I´m talking about and you do not have a clue what the reminder was, had nothing to do with a member on the board.

[MikeyFIN]

Hey Mikey
Speaking of set up right..how about all the single shear bolts on the steering of El Boss....scary!

Are we talking of that black one ?
As far as I know thats a pleasure boat..never raced and did never look into it that much.

[Geronimo36]

No sourness in what I´m talking about and you do not have a clue what the reminder was, had nothing to do with a member on the board.

You're right, you're a smart guy and that's why I asked you to bless us..... :rolleyes:

[MikeyFIN]

Being smart doesn´t make you god..or a priest..
Back to basics.

Tell me about the Apache Cats for a change.
Everything you know for example to get back on track.

[MikeyFIN]

Big water and the cat no likee each other!!!!! Said in my best spanglish accent!!!!!

Sounded more like Japlish...
The womeen love uu for a veryyy loong time....:bump:

A 50 ft Cat can take big water when not sinking do not even think a V unless it´s of same size could even hold a candle.
Those days are over and have been since mid 80´s just ask anyone who built cats back in the day.

[Geronimo36]

Tell me about the Apache Cats for a change.
Everything you know for example to get back on track.

Other than one of them almost killing Bob Saccenti, not being an Aronow design and leading them to a Championship it's not a subject I have vast knowlege of....

With your vast knowledge you may know so let's hear it!:driving:

[MikeyFIN]

So your talking about the Maelstrom/ John McCall wooden "plug boat" that stuffed, the later real Apache Cats of carbon and Kevlar where all identical MPYD boats, right?
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/classic-offshore/359660d1220995444-1986-open-class-national-champ-apache-sodus86-team-apache-96-1.jpg

Also once Team Apache had a Cougar tin cat to secure the title in 86.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/classic-offshore/359659d1220995444-1986-open-class-national-champ-apache-team-apache-miami-86.jpg
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/classic-offshore/390737d1247319129-apache-cat-85-86-h9806-0066sm.jpg

I´m more interested about the Race boats history aka the Warpath in general not the Apache drama.
Like Wild Cat Apache that won all it´s races with Bob Idoni on the sticks.
..

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/classic-offshore/390787d1247347684-apache-cat-85-86-wild-c.jpg

[GENERAL LEE]

Hey Mikey
Speaking of set up right..how about all the single shear bolts on the steering of El Boss....scary!


Are we talking of that black one?

As far as I know thats a pleasure boat..never raced and did never look into it that much.


The Cigarette El Boss was raced extensively. There was a Shadow Cat El Boss that raced as well. T2x has some stories about that one of course.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9148/copyofelboss.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/copyofelboss.jpg/)

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7012/copyofdsc00703.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/copyofdsc00703.jpg/)

[MikeyFIN]

Good Morning guys....


http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/showpost.php?p=407565&postcount=2099

And I was talking about an 50 foot Cougar from Ibiza with the Name El Boss... a pleasure boat that was a sisterboat to Popeyes.
I know about those so lets get back on THE WARPATH.

[Geronimo36]

So your talking about the Maelstrom/ John McCall wooden "plug boat" that stuffed, the later real Apache Cats of carbon and Kevlar where all identical MPYD boats, right?
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/classic-offshore/359660d1220995444-1986-open-class-national-champ-apache-sodus86-team-apache-96-1.jpg

Also once Team Apache had a Cougar tin cat to secure the title in 86.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/classic-offshore/359659d1220995444-1986-open-class-national-champ-apache-team-apache-miami-86.jpg
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/classic-offshore/390737d1247319129-apache-cat-85-86-h9806-0066sm.jpg

I´m more interested about the Race boats history aka the Warpath in general not the Apache drama.
Like Wild Cat Apache that won all it´s races with Bob Idoni on the sticks.
..

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/classic-offshore/390787d1247347684-apache-cat-85-86-wild-c.jpg


If you don't have it already but the Apache video from Big Seas and talk to T2X.

[MikeyFIN]

No I do not have it (yet).

Does the Video tell how many Apache Cats was built etc ?
I know T2X is the man to talk to about US built cats.. and Brownie.

And I love that Wild Cat, looks IMO So Cool.

And I love this one too...

[Geronimo36]

It's a must have! Starts with the Squadron and goes all the way to Wild Cat.

I'm not sure how many cats were built. I wasn't as interested in the cats so never really paid much attention. As for the Wild Cat boat, the video depicts they won the KW Worlds, put the boat on the trailer and never raced again.

[fund razor]

As for the Wild Cat boat, the video depicts they won the KW Worlds, put the boat on the trailer and never raced again.

Something poetic about that.

[Sean Stinson]

Sounded more like Japlish...
The womeen love uu for a veryyy loong time....:bump:

A 50 ft Cat can take big water when not sinking do not even think a V unless it´s of same size could even hold a candle.
Those days are over and have been since mid 80´s just ask anyone who built cats back in the day.

Mikey I hate to say this but 8-10 seas 47 Apache 46 Cougar vs 50 Cougar Cat 46 Skater or whatever cat I am going to say it would be a pretty good heads up race anytime you would like to try it by all means feel free to jump in and we might be able to arrange something!!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

No I do not have it (yet).

Does the Video tell how many Apache Cats was built etc ?
I know T2X is the man to talk to about US built cats.. and Brownie.

And I love that Wild Cat, looks IMO So Cool.

And I love this one too...

How many Apache cats were built I think is in the vicinity of 6ish

[Sean Stinson]

Benny had a raceboat! Lorne Liebel had 2 I believe the first one sank off AC, the second is now Warpaint and belongs to Bob Vesper! Street had one and I believe there was the 41 pleasure one and also I believe there was 1 military one!!! Might be a couple that went to Europe but not sure on that!!! McManus could give you an exact count and I know he monitors the boards!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

Actually Benny had 2 raceboats the one they crashed and the all white second one.....this doesn't include the Cougar that became Erics Reality!!!!

[Geronimo36]

I know he monitors the boards!!!!

Would be nice if he responded once in a while. :driving::smash:

[GENERAL LEE]

Benny had a raceboat! Lorne Liebel had 2 I believe the first one sank off AC, the second is now Warpaint and belongs to Bob Vesper! Street had one and I believe there was the 41 pleasure one and also I believe there was 1 military one!!! Might be a couple that went to Europe but not sure on that!!! McManus could give you an exact count and I know he monitors the boards!!!!

"BigYellowCat" on the board has one as well.

It's BIG, and yellow :sifone:

[MikeyFIN]

It's a must have! Starts with the Squadron and goes all the way to Wild Cat.

I'm not sure how many cats were built. I wasn't as interested in the cats so never really paid much attention. As for the Wild Cat boat, the video depicts they won the KW Worlds, put the boat on the trailer and never raced again.

It went to Japan and was raced there.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLfhm-46Va4


Thats one boat I´d like to get my hands on best of both world..a Cat and one of the names in Racing from back in the day.
But as the EU * Fking laws are seems I´m "stuc" with Cougars ( which I am actually starting also to grow into..used to hate the looks)...unless...

[MikeyFIN]

Mikey I hate to say this but 8-10 seas 47 Apache 46 Cougar vs 50 Cougar Cat 46 Skater or whatever cat I am going to say it would be a pretty good heads up race anytime you would like to try it by all means feel free to jump in and we might be able to arrange something!!!!!


We met briefly at KW so next time well see about that.

Would love to hop at least in and yes on 8-10´s a mono would be my choice too.
Wouldn´t matter if it would be a 46 Cougar ( which I´m familiar with) or a A47 ( which would be one of THE boats in my book along with the A41 and LS Scarab377/ Cig 376).

I´m sure Chris will soon say something regarding C46vs A41...

[MikeyFIN]

"BigYellowCat" on the board has one as well.

It's BIG, and yellow :sifone:


Now that wouldn´t be Bob V ???

Pics???

[MikeyFIN]

Actually Benny had 2 raceboats the one they crashed and the all white second one.....this doesn't include the Cougar that became Erics Reality!!!!

The second one was kevlar/carbon not a wooden one like the 1st, I´d say
Mr. McManus could really tribute and clear our thoughts, I know he just like Don A likes boats on the sturdy side.

Thenagain it´s always up to the conditions but a consensus for a A41 would be like 10-11K lbs filled up for an allarounder in Racing ?

[Geronimo36]

But as the EU * Fking laws are seems I´m "stuc" with Cougars ( which I am actually starting also to grow into..used to hate the looks)...unless...

What raceboat do you own? Any pics?

[MikeyFIN]

What raceboat do you own? Any pics?
offtopic.
None at the moment.. looking for something.

[Geronimo36]

oh, ok.

[lowblue320]

I would like to know was the 47 Kemosabe ever a race boat? If so did it race under the name Kemosabe or another?

[Nykamp]

It's my understanding it was built to race but was not ever raced, the same family from canada built TONTO.

[DrGaryDC]

Here she is in front of our house ready for pick up to Rogers Speed Shop

[MikeyFIN]

Safely Home! :hurray:

[Sean Stinson]

"BigYellowCat" on the board has one as well.

It's BIG, and yellow :sifone:

I dont think his is a real Apache from the original days....it might be but I think it was built later.......

[Sean Stinson]

It's my understanding it was built to race but was not ever raced, the same family from canada built TONTO.

I think it was the Waxmans that built it right Steve???

[lowblue320]

It's my understanding it was built to race but was not ever raced, the same family from canada built TONTO.

Thanks.

[Dude! Sweet!]

Stinson probably knows this, but we have a Warpath on the West Coast too! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNKvEOIEvaI&feature=fvw

KNKvEOIEvaI&feature=fvw

[Thunderman]

[QUOTE=MikeyFIN;407565]Heavier and most of all Bigger....plus the diesels at the time was Cats... Big Cats.
Buzzis IVECO series springs to mind and some other tin cats I´ve witnessed personally in the med (50ft 4 engine Cougar ,see below ) so seems Don Aronow was right on the money.
He liked heavier boats in the rough and personally I can attest he was right.

Apaches are awesome boats whether theyre light or heavy. Could you make one of the lighter ones faster in some conditions? (like some of the new offshore races) offcourse. But all of the ones that won in the kinds of conditions that made them legendary, weren't light boats Warpath1,Warpath2,The Banner boat ect. They were built that way by design not by chance. Its just simple physics. Heavier is generally not only stronger, but the weight it carries flattens the wave giving you a better ride and keeping the props in the water longer. I really dont want to get into a back and forth about this, but not too long ago I remember you were dead set on lighter was better in any condition, and I really dont want to waste my time finding the posts, they were just silly, so, Im just gonna assume you changed your mind.

[Sean Stinson]

Stinson probably knows this, but we have a Warpath on the West Coast too! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNKvEOIEvaI&feature=fvw

KNKvEOIEvaI&feature=fvw

Yes I do thats a bad a$$ boat

[MikeyFIN]

Im just gonna assume you changed your mind. [/B]

I was above talking About SIZE not weight.
So your assumption was like usual... the mother...

Yes I still feel light is good, why ?
In my belief a lighter boat will also cut it with a deeper V.
Who said 24 is the norm when it has not proven to be, there´s 26 and 28 Degree light boats around who has done serious hurt on several feet bigger boats back in the day.

[MikeyFIN]

If you look at the bottom profile of the Cougar, you'll notice it's more "pointy" than the Apache. In reality, they have about the same amount of bottom.

Did you measure the WL on them..and how much does it count running on plane?

I´ve come to the conclusion as the pond is what it is on the east side and North Sea especially Cougar has a reason for it and to be able to carry thru the waves better.

I mean most European boats do look more pointy that most americans.

[DrGaryDC]

Sounds like MM's, but his was an 86

[Geronimo36]

Is that the one you own currently?

Let me know details so we can add you to the owners thread.

[DrGaryDC]

Im not aware of this one, 3 pack/6pack??

[MikeyFIN]

I've only been on the 47 a couple of times. But I would have to say there would be no contest in rough water capability.

That´s what everybody tells me who has been on 47´s but the record books doesn´t back it up for some reason, did those two actually race against each other is a good question ?

It´s sorta like every Shelby Cobra owner telling how good cars Cobras are to drive and the Cobras ( factory backed and Daytona Coupé on top of that ) stomped the (privateers) Ferraris and then later on Carrol Shelby tells the Corvette and Cobra where both equally bad and handled like tractors!
On top of that Phil Hill adds that the Ferrari 250 GTO was the best there was at the time handlingwise.

Thenagain I´d be more happy with a Cobra or even a Daytona Replica than a Ferrari 250 GTO..especially on the street.
Oh Well...

[MikeyFIN]

Apaches are awesome boats whether theyre light or heavy. Could you make one of the lighter ones faster in some conditions? (like some of the new offshore races) offcourse. But all of the ones that won in the kinds of conditions that made them legendary, weren't light boats Warpath1,Warpath2,The Banner boat ect. They were built that way by design not by chance. Its just simple physics. Heavier is generally not only stronger, but the weight it carries flattens the wave giving you a better ride and keeping the props in the water longer..

Warpath 2=Yellow warpath ?

That was a light boat, so is the Banner boat..the current owner told me about it himself.
a Heavy boat while crushing a wave also slows down more by just doing that...
Simple physics.
You can also have your props in the water by having the boat light.... just do not air it...and here comes the legendary stuff...the magic T-arms...

[Chris]

That´s what everybody tells me who has been on 47´s but the record books doesn´t back it up for some reason, did those two actually race against each other is a good question ?



The 47 came around as the sport was shifting to "spectator-friendly", which favored the cats and the big Fountain.

Also, these monsters were not nearly as reliable 20 years ago as they are now. The triple and quad-engined boats meant 50 to 100% more stuff to go wrong- and it often did.

And I really don't recall the 46 being raced that much. In the eraly days of Superboat, George Morales had his everywhere. After the 47 showed up, George had "other things" going on.

[Chris]

Warpath 2=Yellow warpath ?

That was a light boat, so is the Banner boat..the current owner told me about it himself.
a Heavy boat while crushing a wave also slows down more by just doing that...
Simple physics.
You can also have your props in the water by having the boat light.... just do not air it...and here comes the legendary stuff...the magic T-arms...

The second Warpath wasn't nearly as light as the banner boat.

[MikeyFIN]

So you are telling me the A47 came a little late in the game if the Fountain outran that and was the same size about ?

Well guess someone needs to take an A57 to CTC and put it in the record books ;)

I believe there´s some still around in Europe. Even one owner was at least some time ago even from Turkey.

[MikeyFIN]

The second Warpath wasn't nearly as light as the banner boat.

I might remember wrong but the weight of the Red Banner boat was 10600lbs.
And are the 4 yellow ones all then heavier, as I heard they are identical ?

[Chris]

So you are telling me the A47 came a little late in the game if the Fountain outran that and was the same size about ?

.

The INXS Fountain was no slouch in rough water, but the Apache could run it down in the really nasty stuff. On flat water, the Fountain really flew. And when racing came closer to shore, the Fountain really had an advantage. The previous INXS Superboat was a 47 Apache.

[xlr8by]

I might remember wrong but the weight of the Red Banner boat was 10600lbs.
And are the 4 yellow ones all then heavier, as I heard they are identical ?

If by 4 yellow boats you mean predator, star chaser, and US1 (not sure what one you are considering the fourth) they came along after Warpath II, and are lighter than the banner boat. Warpath II was not part of the yellow boat group of predator, star chaser, US1, #4(?). I can prove this since the banner boat was raced after Warpath II, and US1 was used after the Banner boat. Not to mention that those yellow boats have the updated transom. Which the banner boat and Warpath does not have. I might be wrong myself, but this is always what I thought.

[MikeyFIN]

The INXS Fountain was no slouch in rough water, but the Apache could run it down in the really nasty stuff. On flat water, the Fountain really flew. And when racing came closer to shore, the Fountain really had an advantage. The previous INXS Superboat was a 47 Apache.

Shame none of those boats never run in Europe..even later on as here the courses are still rough.
Especially CTC which brits like to pick on the "yanks" that do not have the nuts to do it there :)

I always think when people talk about INXS about the first one...good you pointed out which INXS.

[MikeyFIN]

If by 4 yellow boats you mean predator, star chaser, and US1 (not sure what one you are considering the fourth) they came along after Warpath II, and are lighter than the banner boat. Warpath II was not part of the yellow boat group of predator, star chaser, US1, #4(?). I can prove this since the banner boat was raced after Warpath II, and US1 was used after the Banner boat. Not to mention that those yellow boats have the updated transom. Which the banner boat and Warpath does not have. I might be wrong myself, but this is always what I thought.

I was told the 4 Yellow ones include the Yellow Warpath and are identical.
doesn´t necessarily mean if the Banner boat was raced later that it would be built later, might been some other issues.

Yellow Warpath
Yellow Rabbit
Yellow Starchaser
Yellow Predator

[Geronimo36]

It was called the Rabbit for a reason... lighter isn't always better and it depends on the conditions.

Buy the Freezeframe videos and watch the Atlantic City race for an example of how well the 47's faired in rough water.... The waves were huge, bow spray was hitting the copter above.... Predator and Island runner going at it head-to-head... can't get much better!

[xlr8by]

I was told the 4 Yellow ones include the Yellow Warpath and are identical.
doesn´t necessarily mean if the Banner boat was raced later that it would be built later, might been some other issues.

Yellow Warpath
Yellow Rabbit
Yellow Starchaser
Yellow Predator

I still don't think this is correct, as JC and others have posted that Warpath I and Warpath II are heavy boats. The owner of Starchaser is on here and has proven based on the speed and power that his boat is running that it is light and Predator has been known to be a light boat. If the boats were the same why would Team Apache race US1 instead of Yellow Warpath if they were "identical"?

This post claims 3-4 yellow hulls http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showpost.php?p=303406&postcount=525
This post lists Warpath I and Warpath II HIN# see here http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showpost.php?p=302652&postcount=499

I still believe that Warpath II as the second HIN# is not the same as those other yellow boats simply based on when it was built, the transom, and the weight. I could still be wrong though, what is that saying believe none of what you hear, and half of what you read? :)

[Geronimo36]

Anyone have the video of the light 41' that blew open the side?

[MikeyFIN]

Now I also think your´e right Yellow Warpath being the 2nd hull in 84 and a racehull can´t be similar to Predator and siblings as those are later boats (86`s ?)


This starts to remind me of a list I was involved in trying to list the 917 Porsches and found out that of several cars even Porsche switched numbers on chassies and then alter the resto buffs made replicas and called them real for just having some parts put together I made one Restoration shop In US quite tighlipped after I put the original invoices of the car in question and all the receipts of its racing career in the first team to the table and told I have them personally here.
Came up there´s two chassis and two racecars with same chassis number originating from one car and the other car also despite painted right sports a too early body...
Raceteams seldomly keep track of their stuff and do not have time or interest either.
I´m sure someday people will start to ask me a lot of stuff I´ve wrenched and boy would I remember everything.... probably not.

[Chris]

Predator is a very light layup boat.

[Chris]

The waves were huge, bow spray was hitting the copter above.... !

I think that was the 45 that doused the helo. But there were pobabaly other incidents.

[MikeyFIN]

It was called the Rabbit for a reason... lighter isn't always better and it depends on the conditions.

Buy the Freezeframe videos and watch the Atlantic City race for an example of how well the 47's faired in rough water.... The waves were huge, bow spray was hitting the copter above.... Predator and Island runner going at it head-to-head... can't get much better!

You don´t need to remind me a 3rd time, I promise : )

[warpath]

[QUOTE=MikeyFIN;410471]MikeyFIN QUOTE]

It´s sorta like every Shelby Cobra owner telling how good cars Cobras are to drive and the Cobras ( factory backed and Daytona Coupé on top of that ) stomped the (privateers) Ferraris and then later on Carrol Shelby tells the Corvette and Cobra where both equally bad and handled like tractors!
On top of that Phil Hill adds that the Ferrari 250 GTO was the best there was at the time handlingwise. ___________________________________________________________________________ ___
Ive been a member of the Shelby American Auto Club for many years and have attended and participated their conventions and open track events, as well as ferrari open track events. I raced a 427 SC Cobra replica virtually identical to the original and prepared by Cobra Automotive, they are very knowlegable in track preparation of all Shelby cars. Though Ive never heard any mention of Carrol Shelby putting down his own cars, I can tell you that they arent the most nimble of race cars. Some of the so called best handling cars are usually just considered good handling because they have excellent feel, are very predictable and the driver feels confident driving near or at the limit, but not necessarilly the fastest on the track. In the end the Cobra achieved with brute force and its own kind of skill, and the Ferrari couldnt match it with finness. 917 Porsches were a good example of this they were supposed to be difficult cars to handle but were unbeatable because of their other strengths.

[xlr8by]

Warpath,
Do you mind posting photos of the cockpit and bulkheads of Warpath I and Warpath II? Also, have you ever thought about putting Warpath II back to original graphics?

[warpath]

Back to boats. I have papers from when Warpath 2 was taken to LakeX and it weighed around 10,800#. I Spoke to Tommy Evans about the weights of these three boats. He told me Warpath1 was the heavier than Warpath2 but just marginally and Warpath2 heavier than the Banner boat but also marginally. I beleive these three boats are within a few hundred pounds of each other succesively.

[warpath]

Warpath,
Do you mind posting photos of the cockpit and bulkheads of Warpath I and Warpath II? Also, have you ever thought about putting Warpath II back to original graphics?

Okay I will post them as soon as I can. As for putting the original graphics on Warpath2 the only person that could do that right would be Gail Paik. There really is a lot more artwork and detail in those graphics and letters than you could see in pictures. Colors inside colors, really a lot of work and all done by hand. Finally allready having Warpath1 original you always have to be more careful not to scratch it ect. Warpath2 can be used with less worries.

[MikeyFIN]

Offtopic reply about racecars here (http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?p=410856#post410856)

[MikeyFIN]

Back to boats. I have papers from when Warpath 2 was taken to LakeX and it weighed around 10,800#. I Spoke to Tommy Evans about the weights of these three boats. He told me Warpath1 was the heavier than Warpath2 but just marginally and Warpath2 heavier than the Banner boat but also marginally. I beleive these three boats are within a few hundred pounds of each other succesively.

Bob V of Warpaint stated his boat weighs in at 10600.

[Chris]

Back to boats. I have papers from when Warpath 2 was taken to LakeX and it weighed around 10,800#. I Spoke to Tommy Evans about the weights of these three boats. He told me Warpath1 was the heavier than Warpath2 but just marginally and Warpath2 heavier than the Banner boat but also marginally. I beleive these three boats are within a few hundred pounds of each other succesively.

The second Warpath was built without the cabin liner, correct?

[Geronimo36]

Any idea what the deadrise was on the 46' Cougar?

[Chris]

I'm reasonably sure they were 24 degree bottoms.

[Sean Stinson]

I'm reasonably sure they were 24 degree bottoms.

Correct but I am pretty sure it also has a small pad towards the back of the boat!!!!

[MikeyFIN]

Sean Correct.

[warpath]

The second Warpath was built without the cabin liner, correct?

Correct. No cabin liner just like Warpath1

[warpath]

The High school friend of mine, that found Warpath2 for me, raced a few Apaches and was the driver of the 41 that broke the hull and sank. He was told the plain hull and deck weighed 3300 pounds. He figured about 2000#'s lighter than average 41's. Does that sound right?

[Sean Stinson]

The High school friend of mine, that found Warpath2 for me, raced a few Apaches and was the driver of the 41 that broke the hull and sank. He was told the plain hull and deck weighed 3300 pounds. He figured about 2000#'s lighter than average 41's. Does that sound right?

Yes it does.......I am pretty sure a hull and deck layup was around the 5500# mark give or take a few.....after the boat broke I think they laid them up with an extra layer or 2 to alleviate the problem.....

Who is your high school friend?????

[Geronimo36]

The High school friend of mine, that found Warpath2 for me, raced a few Apaches and was the driver of the 41 that broke the hull and sank. He was told the plain hull and deck weighed 3300 pounds. He figured about 2000#'s lighter than average 41's. Does that sound right?

I've heard about that boat but never got the whole story. Thanks for sharing! What race team was it?

[Erie Express]

I would like to know was the 47 Kemosabe ever a race boat? If so did it race under the name Kemosabe or another?


It was sure looking good last summer at the Lake St. Clair Reunion....

[warpath]

I've heard about that boat but never got the whole story. Thanks for sharing! What race team was it?

The boats he raced werent his. Years ago he showed me the photo from the chopper were he's standing on the bottom of the hull, waiting to be picked up. Supposedly they were leading the race easily when it sounded like a bomb went off, imediately the water started coming in, so they aimed towards a sandbar. he said at one point he looked back and the motors were under water, even the distrubutors (I think they were magnetos), only the horns of the Fuel injection were out and they were still running, but eventually they cut out. According to him, after some arguing they took the hull back to Jack Kramer and Mark Macmanus where it was quickly dissapeared., And they got another hull made, at cost. He's been looking for the photo if he finds it ill post it. Ill also ask the name of the boat.

[DAREDEVIL]

found this

http://boatmad.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=25623

[MikeyFIN]

Thats a very good gallery boatmad has, actually the best there is, watched that clip some time ago but didn´t want to post the link as Flying Falcon came dead last (maybe ran out of fuel) or had issues already at the start, Buzzi boats sweeping a 1-2-3-4 with the La Gran Argentina/Red FPT taking first and even a crewmember of the famous Yellowdrama team at age 79 in a Cougar 46 up there running quite good with surface drives and Yanmars.
Just shows even on a Sunny day how grueling CTC is...

[MikeyFIN]

Another Great Video from Boatmad, CTC 2009 and a Nice Apache up close in the beginning.


http://boatmad.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=21519

[Sean Stinson]

The boats he raced werent his. Years ago he showed me the photo from the chopper were he's standing on the bottom of the hull, waiting to be picked up. Supposedly they were leading the race easily when it sounded like a bomb went off, imediately the water started coming in, so they aimed towards a sandbar. he said at one point he looked back and the motors were under water, even the distrubutors (I think they were magnetos), only the horns of the Fuel injection were out and they were still running, but eventually they cut out. According to him, after some arguing they took the hull back to Jack Kramer and Mark Macmanus where it was quickly dissapeared., And they got another hull made, at cost. He's been looking for the photo if he finds it ill post it. Ill also ask the name of the boat.

What is your friends name if you dont mind me asking.....

[warpath]

What is your friends name if you dont mind me asking.....

I dont mind, but he might.

[Chris]

Correct. No cabin liner just like Warpath1

Bobby tells the story that the first Warpath boat was built for Ben prior to their partnership and that it was built as a pleasure boat- with a liner.

[Geronimo36]

I was up in the attic looking for some things for my wife and came across a boxu full of some old boating pictures from the 90's and early 2000's so I scanned the Apache pics for you all!:driving:

F2-36 - NYC SBI Race (don't remember the year)
5151551516
Firewater - NYC SBI Race (don't remember the year)
51517

[Geronimo36]

47' Apache - Atlantic City (dont' remember the year):driving:

[Thunderman]

Another Great Video from Boatmad, CTC 2009 and a Nice Apache up close in the beginning.


http://boatmad.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=21519

If that race would've been a couple hundred miles longer and the seas rougher, Im preaty sure the Apache would've won.:USA:

[warpath]

Bobby tells the story that the first Warpath boat was built for Ben prior to their partnership and that it was built as a pleasure boat- with a liner.

Ill double check. Maybe I dont understand your question. Ill double check on the first part of the cabin, but from there on Im sure because you can see the all the reiforcements ( no liner ).

[xlr8by]

Updated List
47'
1. Yellow Kramer race boat
2. PTM/Lucky Strike US Offshore Paceboat (Kramers back up boat) AKA US offshore pace boat (American Flag paint scheme)
3. INXS
4. Little Ceasars
5. The Dealer aka Broken Arrow
6. RDS Kid Apache Kid (45')
7. Tweet Revenge aka Paleface
8. Firewater
9. Octavian
10. Medicine Man
11. Boss Hogg aka Quick Tempered
12. War Party
13. Kemosabe
14. Mega Toy (45' boat)
15. Apache Hertiage (45' boat)
16. For Your Eyes Only
17. Running Brave aka Spirit of Apache
18. Miami to NY Race boat was a 47' but the beam appeared wider
19. Fighter One
20. Joe Kinser's boat on Lake Lanier
21. Lil Can

Please feel free to contribute any changes/updates. When the list gets closer to completion I will create a separate thread similar to the 41' race boat registry for the 47'.

[lucy]

nice job!!

[chewiekw]

Warpath do you have a bigger picture of your Avatar? Thanks for sharing...

[xlr8by]

nice job!!

Where you been? This thread needed your trivia!! ;)

[lucy]

just got home from a long South America trip! recharging my batteries be ready to play tomorrow:)

[J-Bonz]

Updated List
47'
1. Yellow Kramer race boat
2. PTM/Lucky Strike US Offshore Paceboat (Kramers back up boat) AKA US offshore pace boat (American Flag paint scheme)
3. INXS
4. Little Ceasars
5. The Dealer aka Broken Arrow
6. RDS Kid Apache Kid (45')
7. Tweet Revenge aka Paleface
8. Firewater
9. Octavian
10. Medicine Man
11. Boss Hogg aka Quick Tempered
12. War Party
13. Kemosabe
14. Mega Toy (45' boat)
15. Apache Hertiage (45' boat)
16. For Your Eyes Only
17. Running Brave aka Spirit of Apache
18. Miami to NY Race boat was a 47' but the beam appeared wider
19. Fighter One
20. Joe Kinser's boat on Lake Lanier
21. Lil Can

Please feel free to contribute any changes/updates. When the list gets closer to completion I will create a separate thread similar to the 41' race boat registry for the 47'.

What about this 47'?

[Offshore Ginger]

I was up in the attic looking for some things for my wife and came across a boxu full of some old boating pictures from the 90's and early 2000's so I scanned the Apache pics for you all!:driving:

F2-36 - NYC SBI Race (don't remember the year)
5151551516
Firewater - NYC SBI Race (don't remember the year)
51517 Frank great pics and funny thing about having treasures in the attic .:rofl::rofl::seeya:

[xlr8by]

What about this 47'?

Not sure anyone??

[Geronimo36]

Frank great pics and funny thing about having treasures in the attic .:rofl::rofl::seeya:

Thanks Artie! If I have more time I'll dig thru some of the older photos we took at the races! :driving:

[DAREDEVIL]

What about this 47'?

wow,,,,,where is it and who owns it . me likey !!!!!:USA:

[Thunderman]

Updated List
47'
1. Yellow Kramer race boat
2. PTM/Lucky Strike US Offshore Paceboat (Kramers back up boat) AKA US offshore pace boat (American Flag paint scheme)
3. INXS
4. Little Ceasars
5. The Dealer aka Broken Arrow
6. RDS Kid Apache Kid (45')
7. Tweet Revenge aka Paleface
8. Firewater
9. Octavian
10. Medicine Man
11. Boss Hogg aka Quick Tempered
12. War Party
13. Kemosabe
14. Mega Toy (45' boat)
15. Apache Hertiage (45' boat)
16. For Your Eyes Only
17. Running Brave aka Spirit of Apache
18. Miami to NY Race boat was a 47' but the beam appeared wider
19. Fighter One
20. Joe Kinser's boat on Lake Lanier
21. Lil Can

Please feel free to contribute any changes/updates. When the list gets closer to completion I will create a separate thread similar to the 41' race boat registry for the 47'.
What about Pale Face?

[J-Bonz]

wow,,,,,where is it and who owns it . me likey !!!!!:USA:

That pic was posted on the other site a while ago. It was said that it was a 47' some where in Asia, Japan/China.....

[xlr8by]

What about Pale Face?

See number 7 ;) it was tweets revenge.

[Sean Stinson]

Not sure anyone??

That one went to Japan.....details in the Apache Pic thread!!!!

[WMF]

Im sure Chris can help complete the list with the 3, 41 Apache's he had owned!!:cheers2:

[xlr8by]

Im sure Chris can help complete the list with the 3, 41 Apache's he had owned!!:cheers2:

Chris said he owned 3 pleasure setup boats. That would be a great start on the pleasure 41' list (hint hint :) ). That is one list, I am not trying to tackle myself, but maybe someone else will!!

[WMF]

Chris said he owned 3 pleasure setup boats. That would be a great start on the pleasure 41' list (hint hint :) ). That is one list, I am not trying to tackle myself, but maybe someone else will!!

Is there a difference between the pleasure and the race setup Apache 41??:sifone:

[xlr8by]

Is there a difference between the pleasure and the race setup Apache 41??:sifone:

Cabin (exists on pleasure not on race), Cockpit race is 3 or 6 man stand up (Pleasure is 2 bolsters and a rear bench, although there is a standup boat or two out there with a cabin), Motors are Full Stagger on race setup (pleasure is side by side or half stagger), Race Hatches!! (my favorite) aren't on pleasure. There are other's but these are the big ones. WMF even if you know, I figured it should have been posted at some point in this massive thread.

[Nykamp]

Full race setups will have an 8' hatch, and differnt life lines up the bow. The life lines have more surport at the anchor points on the deck. Also the full race setup's will have the big K planes the C 600 dual ram tabs.

[Geronimo36]

Predator, mid 1990's timeframe, Point Pleasant race.....

[Geronimo36]

So I was digging thru the box trying to find more old Apache photo's and came across an old picture of me on my fathers boat at age 2+/-. First pic is me at 2 yrs old, 2nd is my daughter at 2 on the Apache.

I was on the phone with a friend looking at them and he said; "What's the difference between the two?" I said, I dunno, hair color? He said, no, the lifejacket!!! I guess our parents were less worrysome in the 70's/80's. :ack2:

Can't make this stuff up!:cheers2:

[ChiefApache]

So I was digging thru the box trying to find more old Apache photo's and came across an old picture of me on my fathers boat at age 2+/-. First pic is me at 2 yrs old, 2nd is my daughter at 2 on the Apache.

I was on the phone with a friend looking at them and he said; "What's the difference between the two?" I said, I dunno, hair color? He said, no, the lifejacket!!! I guess our parents were less worrysome in the 70's/80's. :ack2:

Can't make this stuff up!:cheers2:

LOL! Great pics Frank.

[BBB725]

So I was digging thru the box trying to find more old Apache photo's and came across an old picture of me on my fathers boat at age 2+/-. First pic is me at 2 yrs old, 2nd is my daughter at 2 on the Apache.

I was on the phone with a friend looking at them and he said; "What's the difference between the two?" I said, I dunno, hair color? He said, no, the lifejacket!!! I guess our parents were less worrysome in the 70's/80's. :ack2:

Can't make this stuff up!:cheers2:

She looks like she could beat you up, if you were both 2:sifone:

[Geronimo36]

Heck, she beats me up now!

[warpath]

Warpath do you have a bigger picture of your Avatar? Thanks for sharing...

your welcome.

[Geronimo36]

your welcome.

Warpath, do you happen to know the HIN on your boats? First Apache was the Warpath, maybe the first pleasure boat was second then the yellow rabbit, then the banner boat for the apache challenge??

[xlr8by]

Warpath, do you happen to know the HIN on your boats? First Apache was the Warpath, maybe the first pleasure boat was second then the yellow rabbit, then the banner boat for the apache challenge??

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showpost.php?p=302652&postcount=499
Come on Frank start reading this thread ;)

[olli]

Is War Dancer the only Apache (or Comanche?) with such a deck? What is the Story behind it?

51773

[Sean Stinson]

What about Pale Face?

#7 on the list bro!!!!:sifone::sifone:

[Geronimo36]

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showpost.php?p=302652&postcount=499
Come on Frank start reading this thread ;)

Thanks dude!!!

So 003 was probably the first pleasure version.... I remember hearing from Bob that he had Ben build the hull/deck and Bobby turned it into a pleasure version, first one built! I'll have to confirm. :)

[GENERAL LEE]

Is War Dancer the only Apache (or Comanche?) with such a deck? What is the Story behind it?

51773

That deck looks pretty good I think :cheers2:

[olli]

That deck looks pretty good I think :cheers2:

Certainly does but why is it different? Was it built like that or have they modified it?
As far as Comanche and Apache are concerned I do not know if these lines can be seperated like some people do on other threads. The brochure of the Comanche 42 shows 'Ultimate Warrior' on the front page. :huh:

[thedonz]

From what i remember each Apache/ Comanche were custom build to the original owner and not 1 of them was exactly the same; sorta like a Skater

[Sean Stinson]

That deck looks pretty good I think :cheers2:

As far as I know it is the only one it did have the original Apache deck at one time have pics somewhere of it and then it went through a total refit and it is as you see it now!!!!

[Sean Stinson]

warpath, do you happen to know the hin on your boats? First apache was the warpath, maybe the first pleasure boat was second then the yellow rabbit, then the banner boat for the apache challenge??

ab841001??84
ab841002??84

[xlr8by]

ab841001??84
ab841002??84

Warpath AB841001F84A
Yellow Warpath AB841002M85A

:)

[Geronimo36]

So it looks like the first pleasure version the Bobby built may have been AB841003M85A if the Banner boat is AB841004?85A??? Are the letters before the year the build month?

[Geronimo36]

That deck looks pretty good I think :cheers2:

Looks like the Apache deck... Possibly later on the deck was modified because in order for it not to be a "splash" you need to change more than 1 thing aobut the boat!:kiss:

During the Comanche error I heard a few "apache's" were thrown in. ;)

[xlr8by]

So it looks like the first pleasure version the Bobby built may have been AB841003M85A if the Banner boat is AB841004?85A??? Are the letters before the year the build month?

See this pic.
Current format
Jan A
Feb B
March C
April D
May E
June F
July G
August H
Sept. I
Oct. J
Nov. K
Dec. L

*Key to Month of Model Year

The month of certification or manufacture. Indicates the month in which construction began, with “A” being January and “L” being December.

"MODEL YEAR FORMAT (Appears Apache used this one)

(XYZ45678M84A )=example of HIN.
Designates Model Year Format, Model Year=(84) (A)=Month of Production

*Key to month of production for Model Year Format. In the example, month is August.

A - August D - November G - February J - May
B - September E - December H - March K - June
C - October F - January I - April L - July "

[Geronimo36]

In retard terms please??? :)

[xlr8by]

In retard terms please??? :)

Warpath I HIN:AB841001F84A
So, we know that the beginning is the Apache manufacturerer, the middle is the length 41', the serial number is 001 in this case, and the F84A means the boat was built in August 1984. I hope this helps, and I hope I am applying what I just learned correctly!

[Geronimo36]

Thanks. Don't mind me, it's been a long day and I was being lazy and didn't want to read/digest the factual info you posted! :)

[GENERAL LEE]

During the Comanche error I heard a few "apache's" were thrown in. ;)

Oh yeah, like they'd risk that.........http://smiliesftw.com/x/eek5oopsie__________.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)




:sifone:

[Sean Stinson]

So it looks like the first pleasure version the Bobby built may have been AB841003M85A if the Banner boat is AB841004?85A??? Are the letters before the year the build month?

Dont forget the rabbit.....there was a pleasure boat in the top 5

[Sean Stinson]

Warpath I HIN:AB841001F84A
So, we know that the beginning is the Apache manufacturerer, the middle is the length 41', the serial number is 001 in this case, and the F84A means the boat was built in August 1984. I hope this helps, and I hope I am applying what I just learned correctly!

I know the later ones used the other format

[MarylandMark]

In retard terms please??? :)

You said the R word! :eek: :sifone:

[Geronimo36]

Dont forget the rabbit.....there was a pleasure boat in the top 5

Sean, which one was the rabbit? WP #2, the Apache Team boat with the starchaser looking head on the side or something else?

[Geronimo36]

You said the R word! :eek: :sifone:

I include myself so it takes one to know one! :):bump:

[Geronimo36]

Warpath I HIN:AB841001F84A
So, we know that the beginning is the Apache manufacturerer, the middle is the length 41', the serial number is 001 in this case, and the F84A means the boat was built in August 1984. I hope this helps, and I hope I am applying what I just learned correctly!

Some useless info and not sure if it applies to the 41's but Bobby's boats were numbered as such;

My boat: APH36029J495

It was the 29th boat out of the mold, built in October 1994, but was a 1995 model.. APH 36' 029 boat out of mold, built in Oct 94 , 95 shows it is a 95 model...

This is the way Bob numbered his Apaches according to Coast Guard regulations.:cheers2:

[fund razor]

APH28011B888

So I mine was the 11th?

Built in feb of 88?

[Geronimo36]

That's correct!!

One could assume Bob averaged roughly 3 boats per year from 88 - 94' ;)

[Sean Stinson]

Sean, which one was the rabbit? WP #2, the Apache Team boat with the starchaser looking head on the side or something else?

The yellow US-1 boat with Red head dress.... It was Warpath 1 then Warpath 2 then the rabbit then I believe the pleasure boat and then the banner boat

[Geronimo36]

The yellow US-1 boat with Red head dress.... It was Warpath 1 then Warpath 2 then the rabbit then I believe the pleasure boat and then the banner boat

Cool, thanks Sean! :cheers2:

Did the rabbit become Firewater, then painted silver and now for sale? Did the rabbit also have a hull failure in its early days which was fixed?

tlyg3TN5hVM