Opinions ....let's hear them.

[Top Banana]

I started posting some old photos of the original Banana Boat factory in the Banana Boat co section here on Serious and some of the 24 footers we made over the years..... and it got me thinking about the future.

I would like to ask for some opinions from the Serious Offshore community, about the future of the 24 foot and 28 foot Banana Boats.

Is there a future for a 24 and 28 foot boats in the offshore world or should we focus more on the smaller sized boat world and offer them as a step up for them? Are we looking at the wrong market with offshore?

If there is a future, I would think that a whole new deck design is in order for both and I would appreciate your input on that.

The bottom is a traditional deep vee. We could make inserts for the hull molds for a step to pick up more speed if that would be necessary.

Should we keep the sport boat models or convert over to just center consoles?

If we keep the sport boat models should we just go with brackets / swim platforms and outboards or offer single sterndrives too?

How custom should we offer...right now we give the customer a blank sheet of paper and whatever they want, we make it happen.

Or should we just stop the smaller sizes and focus on the bigger size boats for the future?

Are we the last to still offer a smaller boat?

I appreciate and value your opinions and welcome any and all dialogue on this subject.

The boating world has changed since the day Don Aronow and I sat in his office and made the deal for the molds of the 24 Cigarette. What needs to be done for the future?

Thank you ahead of time for your thoughts.

Charlie


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[fund razor]

With the economics of today, (we aren't in the boom of the 90's coupled with 1.20 a gallon gas) if I am going to get a 40 foot plus boat, it's going to be a second home. Not a "speedboat."
Meanwhile, I'll always have a 24-28 foot boat for fun running, and am open to sterndrives or outboards as a preferred dayboating vehicle on Lake Erie.
(I currently own a 28 apache)

I wouldn't buy a large offshore, regardless of ability. Maybe a Black Thunder... but otherwise, if it's bigger than 30 feet it's gonna be a cruiser.

[Ratickle]

Well, for sure the 28 has a place in the offshore world. The 24 is currently an unknown. It will be interesting to see how the new Defender comes out of Chief.

I think the biggest issue there is why buy a 24 of anything when the 28 is so close to the same price and neither one will go over the weight for most small tow vehicles, power vs performance is almost identical because of the new layup materials, and you actually have room in a cabin to spend the weekend.

The biggest selling boat in the current lineup at Outerlimits is the 29. The new boat coming out of Saber is the 28. The latest boats sold by Pantera has been their 28's.

As for blocking the hull to make a step, I would say it's a good thing not just for the top speed, but also for fuel efficiency. That is going to matter more and more. Speed is starting to take a backseat to usefulness. Hence the center console overtake of the offshore performance world. The big question with a step or two, can you make it safe for the average new boater out there? There is not a one of us here who have raced step and conventional Vee's who doesn't know what can happen in a split second with a step hull designed for top speed only. It is even more susceptible in a single outboard configuration. I have talked with numerous race drivers and they believe the P1 boat would be much safer with twin outboards than the current single. It seems like they roll or flip one every other race. I was just talking with Sean Stinson about the Fastech the other day and he was saying that step design was extremely forgiving in a corner. Same with the Chief as we know, and there are a couple other examples like the single step Phantom 30. But would those same designs work in a 28 or 33? You know the people to discuss that with better than I do. The fastest straightline Vee out there is also the most prone to spinouts and rollovers, happens way too often. Until the latest bottom modifications, it was a boat I always warned people about learning to drive through a corner from an expert before ever going on their own.

I do believe you would have to modify the deck. I think the raised deck on the black thunder is an incredible example of how to design a boat that looks "performance" good but has maximum headroom. The new Sunsation 43 is also a good example. Two boats that are out there going over 100 but no problem for spending the weekend on in style and comfort, and never a story of a spinout or flip.

The other thing about your hulls, the 24 would be a 26 for most manufacturers today because of the molded on swimplatform deal, and the 28 would be a 30. If you are pricing against those types of builders, it's something you'd have to consider.

I'll think some more. But, like Fund, my 24 is the most fun of all the boats I own and we've kept it because of that. The 28 to 30 bracket may be the best of all in the all-around single boat owner market.

[Buoy]

OK, since you're asking opinions...

Personally, the 24-28 is right for me.
When I was younger (20's-30's) I wanted a 35-40' offshore boat, but couldn't afford one (not many in that age range can). But 35-40' of boat is a lot to upkeep, storage is more expensive, even dockage is more expensive, requires a larger tow vehicle, and just in general it's a lot of work. But, at that age, I had the energy to do it but I didn't have the funds.

24-28 is towable by most trucks/SUV's today. Most people have room to store a 24-28 at home. My 24 (Pantera) fits in my garage (barely...). Even counties/HOA's have limits if you store outdoors (my last house limited up to 28' on a paved pad in the backyard).
Plus, with today's fuel prices...

I think the market is going to start picking up very soon, and I believe the 24-28' market is where it's going to go. Having something that can be reasonably an "overnighter" for a couple is a bonus.

As stated by others, if I were to buy anything larger than 30', it's gonna be a "water condo", 2nd boat. I put bottom paint on it, park it in a dock as a weekend home, and only leave dock a few times a year.

[Buoy]

Additional thoughts...

I'm not a fan of stepped hulls. Just seems to me that adding them, while it may increase top end, ask the customer "How often, and for how long are you going to run WOT"?
I'm guessing a truthful answer is 3-4 times a season, and 10-15 minutes.
I think with steps, more can go wrong than go right.
"If" you offered steps, the 28 might benefit, but on the 24... I don't think you'll see much benefit on a hull that size - but, I'm certainly not an authority on that topic.

Paul, to add to your list of "flying condos", put the 37' AT on that list. If you've ever been in one, it's a huge boat. Mike Sommers just picked his up last fall, and I'm sure he'll tell you it's a fast water condo.

[Flying Dutchman]

No steps, no cc don't change the deck. Your differentiation is heritage. Your customer is a "boater" or a yachtsman and has one, or more, boaters boats- a Hinkley, classic Hatteras, etc and probably something modern and over 70 feet as well. You offer an alternative to a wooden chris craft type of runabout this is not a first boat, this is a 10th boat, and one of many in the stable. In fact your target customer is probably considers themselves more of a sailor- In the sailing world you may call it "spirit of tradition". Full on teak and Chrome (teak decks!), yacht level of finish. No "livorsi offshore bling" Pretty much a new boat with new stock power that looks like the cigs and bananas in your old photos. Best of all you were part of the tradition and already carry the heritage. After awhile this becomes his go to boat, because of the ease of use vs. the "big boats" and sharp classy look-

[Top Banana]

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Thank you to all that have responded, quite a variety of opinions there and that is just what I hoped for.

I understand the "Big" boat or cruiser concept while still owning a smaller fast boat.

These photos of my 38 Magnum Sport is what I used for going out to Nantucket or Block Island or Montauk for weekends.

It had big block gas engines. Laid up very light for a Magnum, it had two custom oval Italian portholes in the sides rather than the four square ones they used back then. The head was expanded so it had a full sit down shower. Cockpit was custom wrap around seats up front and the back was open with a horseshoe shaped couch around the stern area and up the sides. Bimini top over the forward section of the cockpit kept the sun off. I wanted it very simple. Easy to maintain and operate.

I had a customer years ago who had a 60 foot yacht and a 24 Banana sterndrive. He said if he was going out for less than 3 hours that day, he would jump in the Banana. If he was going out longer or staying over someplace, he took the bigger boat.

We offer a 9 foot cabin in the 24 Banana now. It starts right after the forward bulkhead and goes all the way to the cabin door buklhead. It has a large vee berth with porta potti underneath and two small sit down areas just inside the doorway. Maybe we could emphasize that aspect in both the 24 and 28 footer. People could have a quick little boat and some overnight or afternoon accomodations if they wanted to.

Great ideas, keep them coming and thanks for the input.

[fund razor]

He said if he was going out for less than 3 hours that day, he would jump in the Banana. If he was going out longer or staying over someplace, he took the bigger boat.

I think that is what I was thinking. I work full time, so my windows of opportunity tend to be small. If it is a nice Saturday afternoon and I want to go out on the lake, I take it to the ramp and am back by dark. My 28 is small enough to have a fun ride, but big enough for some confidence if conditions change. I have used a 21, a 26, and a 28 for this purpose. A well built 24 would fit right in. I also think that 28 and under is fairly easy to keep at home on a trailer, leaving the option of leaving a cruiser in the water as the "summer home."
For me, the combination of a fat pig like an Egg Harbor at the yacht club year round (wet slip in summer, jack stands in winter) and a trailerable "speedboat" would be the perfect combination and meet all of my boating needs. I happen to have a dually because my 28 is heavy, but a 24 would eliminate that need.

[cdail28590]

The biggest issue I see, which was pointed out earlier, was the cost of a new 24'. I'm guessing a new 24' is going to be in the $70-90k range. For me thats a lot of money for a 24' or even a 28' boat. New boats in general are getting so expensive that its more appealing to buy used. I think if you could provide a 24' with decent power in the $40-50k range more people would be interested in it.

[Top Banana]

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The biggest issue I see, which was pointed out earlier, was the cost of a new 24'. I'm guessing a new 24' is going to be in the $70-90k range. For me thats a lot of money for a 24' or even a 28' boat. New boats in general are getting so expensive that its more appealing to buy used. I think if you could provide a 24' with decent power in the $40-50k range more people would be interested in it.

That brings up and intersting point. Let's forget the 24 footer for now and focus on the 28. As many of you know the biggest cost in a new boat is the cost of the engines, either outboards or sterndrives. Soooooo....should we entertain the idea of selling the 28 footers as bare hulls and decks with certain items included....fuel tanks, navigation lights, windshield?

Seriously, the reason a lot of companies won't sell a bare hull and deck is they are concerned about what the final product will be like. No one wants to build a boat that is known as a, less than best reputation, because of how others beyond their control finished it.

Or, do we include an option list that the customer can work from, up to and including a complete running boat?
Or maybe just hulls and decks to dealers that would do the actual finish work.

There is no easy answer, but it gets complicated quickly.

What would a price point be for a 28 like one of these photos.

Bare hull and deck in white gelcoat. Center fuel tank installed, windshield installed, hole cut for single engine sterndrive in transom.

Cockpit interior, front seats or bolsters and rear bench seat installed....choice of 7 colors for interior.

Would anyone....even dealers be interested in a boat like this coming to the market?

[Buoy]

Selling un-rigged hulls...
The first problem I see as a consumer would be warranty issues. Something goes wrong and you have the rigger pointing fingers at the builder of the hull, and the hull builder blaming the rigger, or both of them blaming the engine maker... The customer is caught in the middle.

[Top Banana]

Selling un-rigged hulls...
The first problem I see as a consumer would be warranty issues. Something goes wrong and you have the rigger pointing fingers at the builder of the hull, and the hull builder blaming the rigger, or both of them blaming the engine maker... The customer is caught in the middle.

That is why I said we could use a dealer .....say for an example the dealer used was TNT out of Miami. Each group...boat builder and dealer...would respect the other's ability to do a top job and the customer would get a price break...maybe?

[cdail28590]

I like the idea of a unrigged hull completed minus drive and motor or you do options to have all rigging run and a drive on it all that is needed from the customer is a motor. I think there are a lot of people that have good powerplants that want a newer boat and wouldn't have a problem buying a boat unrigged with only a hull structural warranty at good price for a starting point or like you said have all the options to do whatever. Think about if you could buy a new boat with interior, gauges, lights, and rigging to the motor for a price of $20k and you supplied the drive and motor. I think a lot of boaters would be pulling their current motors and drives off to put on that boat at that price point.

[Buoy]

That is why I said we could use a dealer .....say for an example the dealer used was TNT out of Miami. Each group...boat builder and dealer...would respect the other's ability to do a top job and the customer would get a price break...maybe?

I see where you're going, but at that point you aren't selling unrigged hulls. You are just outsourcing the rigging.

I know years ago Pantera sold a few unrigged hulls, and I'm sure they still would today. But, among the "Pantera Cult", when one of these boats comes up for sale used, the very first thing that everyone starts screaming is "It wasn't rigged by Pantera".

But, on the other hand if you're looking at a Cigarette, if it was done by Lipship it's more desirable.

I know I didn't answer any question here, just throwing things out for discussion.

[Top Banana]

Think about if you could buy a new boat with interior, gauges, lights, and rigging to the motor for a price of $20k and you supplied the drive and motor. I think a lot of boaters would be pulling their current motors and drives off to put on that boat at that price point.

LOL, I was actually thinking of selling a 28 footer, not a 10 footer.

I think though, you are just using any low price point for an example. Your quoted price, $20K, is not that far off for a full cockpit with bolsters, sun pad and cabin interior...never mind the cost of layup of the hull and deck and all of the pieces and parts to get it ready for an engine installation.

We are thinking along the same lines here, just a bit off on the price.

[Bobcat]

Years ago (and I mean years) I took a 19' Dynasty down to LOTO....and almost sank it (which would have been a shame because it was full of strippers.....college girl strippers not biker strippers) A year later I took a 23'7" Powerquest down there and had a really good time in all conditions.

To this day I believe 24' is the minimum length for rough water. I do like 28' footers the most, because you can still tow them in residential areas with ease, and they can handle any water I want to be in. Love the sound of big blocks, but I boat in saltwater 100% of the time, and skinny saltwater water 50% of that time(nice to be able to idle trimmed to the max) ..so I am always looking at O/B's . Outboard 28's can fly !!!! Plus a usable cabin is nice.

So anything tow-able, fast , and dependable ...sounds easy !!!! (and a huge swim ladder for us older larger folks)

[Buoy]

I agree with Bobcat, 28' is ideal.
And, if I were in salt, I'd want O/B's

[Ratickle]

I believe that 28' Offshore boats won several of the long offshore races back in the day. I also know of a Pantera that set a long-distance record once upon a time.

[Ratickle]

As Pepe passed to me, the record boat was a 24'.

[Top Banana]

Staying with old school usable cabin boat look in a 28 ............or should we modernize it a bit by sleeking back the windshield and blending it into the deck line ...........or even just a flat deck like the old Cary outboard raceboat has here.

What does the next generation of buyers want for a timeless look?

77785

[Bobcat]

Windshields are a tough decision. If you live somewhere it rains a lot...they are handy with a convertible top...but they are also subject to "sneezing" (both ways) And are hard to keep clean. They can also be a sauna at low speeds. I like the look of the race fairing, or even the older Fountain mini windshield with the "lip on it.

[Buoy]

I prefer a flat deck with a fairing, or a small windshield (the useless, 6" tall type).
It just looks better.

[poncho]

Had a boat with convertible top and it snapped onto the windshield. It was nice when it rained because I could still use the boat. Current Donzi Classic has a windshield and think it adds to the styling. Its a 22. On the 18 Classic I prefer them without.

[Ratickle]

Windshields are nice, but they need to be un-intrusive. Some look like crap, some add to the boats overall appeal. I'll try to dig up some of my favorites.....

[Ratickle]

The older Hustler 32 and the Velocity 28 both had sweet looking windscreens that blended in with the boat lines.

77790

77791

[Hellbent]

Staying with old school usable cabin boat look in a 28 ............or should we modernize it a bit by sleeking back the windshield and blending it into the deck line ...........or even just a flat deck like the old Cary outboard raceboat has here.

What does the next generation of buyers want for a timeless look?


I still drool over old Saber's, Pantera's, and Scarab's. I think a small fairing that can easily be converted to a windshield or have deflectors added to it is the best bet. But....

I have additional thoughts here because I'm the guy the industry claims they're trying to appeal to. I'm middle aged, upper middle class income, 1.6 kids, etc. I need at least 28' to support my style of boating (friends, kids, a couple coolers, over-nights, etc.). If I can't buy a brand new 'performance' boat that fits my needs for around $125k then it's not happening. Getting financed is not as easy as it once was (many lenders have dropped boats all together), insurance costs are much higher thanks to all the fraud over the past 20 years, and fuel prices are 3x what they were 20 years ago. These are all factors that I have to consider when I'm buying a 'toy' like this. The demographic of customers who were spending $125k+ 20 years ago on a brand new 28' barely exists anymore. Those were the days of a booming economy that was ripe for the picking for even the dumbest of entrepreneurs. It's not like that anymore. Throw on top of all that the fact that I can buy a 20 year old boat that performs nearly as good as a new one (and looks just as good) for a fraction of the cost right now and it's pretty hard to justify buying new.

I guess what I'm saying here is.....there isn't enough market to support more than a handful of 28' manufacturers if the price is $200k+. That's the elephant in the room that none of the manufacturers seem to be addressing. Until they find a way to sell one for less, the numbers will continue to decline. There will be some shift in sales due to people stepping down from bigger boats (because they can't afford to buy a brand new 40' anymore) but manufacturers aren't going to attract many 'new' performance boaters at $200k. For proof all you have to do is look at how many of those manufacturers are gone now and the higher age of the average performance boater. Just sayin'.....

[cdail28590]

The laid back windshield or one like the Velocity has look much better. What would be a price point for a 28' with everything included but a motor and drive and all wiring back to the motor completed?

[Ratickle]

Some of the things I seem to notice when it comes to performance powerboats (and has influenced our choices over time).

Most ladies want comfort.
Fast is fun but only for a reasonably short time. Rough rides are not fun at all for most. As my wife has said in the 24', #It was a pretty good ride, I don't think I broke any ribs this time and only had the wind knocked out of me a couple times." A place to lay out and sun. A potty to take a pee. Room for a nap, cooler, and a place to change are all important. So is a place out of the wind, (sometimes you're heading somewhere that "Bad Hair" is something to cause arrival issues......

The boat must look cool
It seems to be a status thing. I'm fine in a ratrod version of a boat with good performance capabilities. My wife, not so much.

The days of multiple boats to fit the need at the time are almost over. They are starting to cost too much. It's not just the purchase, but the insurance is also getting up there.

So, the 28' seems to fit the bill. They are big enough to have a decent sunpad. With a slightly raised deck they have the room for a potty and a place to nap or change. With the right lines, classics rock, they meet the "cool" requirement. The deep Vee's ride decent in rough water. There is not much a decent driver can't go through in somewhat comfort in a well designed 28. And nice for us guys, they can perform very well in most conditions with a large single or with twins. But wive's/girlfriend's are becoming very involved when the final decision is made.

I think the main question is what is the best value. Boats are expensive when new. Over $200,000 for a 28' is a large chunk of change. How much does the cost change per foot average now? How much more is a 28 than a 24? What about a 32 vs a 28? The obvious cost of a twin versus a single seems huge when the average engine/drive package is over $40,000, but the cost of twins in a 28 versus the same package in a 32 seems like it should be minuscule when it comes to total cost. Wrong?

Personally I think the 28 with a huge single is a great option.

[fund razor]

The older Hustler 32 and the Velocity 28 both had sweet looking windscreens that blended in with the boat lines.

77790

77791

My old 26 Chris had a windshield that blended with the lines very well.
77802

[Ratickle]

And I've had this discussion with several people in person and on the phone since this thread was started. The importance of steps. I say it is no longer just speed, although that is important. But the pad bottom on Velocity has similar speed capabilities as a well designed step bottom. The more important part of bottom design after safety in all water conditions is efficiency. Boats will need to get better and better mileage, the step bottom boats do that. And, so far, the Chief bottom seems to be the best of both worlds. Would it perform the same when scaled down?

[Ratickle]

My old 26 Chris had a windshield that blended with the lines very well.
77802

Also had great headroom for it's size and kept nice performance lines. Did the 26' include the platform on those?

[fund razor]

Also had great headroom for it's size and kept nice performance lines. Did the 26' include the platform on those?

If I recall correctly, it was 26 without the bolt-on platform.

[Ratickle]

One thing I'm curious about on potential boat design and configurations. I talked with a friend who has a sweet Scarab 30 center console with twin 225 Mercs. I told him he should stick on a couple new 300 Verados, but he said that had been tried with a 30 and it was too heavy in the stern for the boat.

Will the design of the 28 Banana, and similar size boats, handle a twin 300 to 350 setup of the new outboards? (A single 557 would be interesting too).

[Top Banana]

77815

Okay........here is something that we have been working on for a bit now.

This is a 28 foot boat.

It was designed as a race boat with a single big block sterndrive.

Cabin room is plenty big..... from the deck line to the bottom of the vee. Same as the 24footer, 9 feet end to end.

This would be a bolster boat with the fuel tank under the floor of the cockpit.

It is shown with race hatches in the drawing, but this could be changed to a back seat and a sun pad for the ladies.

Plenty of room for a vee berth and a porta potti and storage under there.

This race version could be purchased for someone who is just looking for a fun boat that can be used for a few hours and quickly washed down and put away.

Hull and deck with 100 gallon fuel tank and trim tabs and all electronics installed. Steering options installed also.

You tell us what engine and drive you will be using and we cut the transom for the drive and exhaust pipes.

We think we have captured the timeless look also.........

What do you think??

[Top Banana]

One thing I'm curious about on potential boat design and configurations. I talked with a friend who has a sweet Scarab 30 center console with twin 225 Mercs. I told him he should stick on a couple new 300 Verados, but he said that had been tried with a 30 and it was too heavy in the stern for the boat.

Will the design of the 28 Banana, and similar size boats, handle a twin 300 to 350 setup of the new outboards? (A single 557 would be interesting too).

I would not like to think of someone putting twin 300HP or 350HP on a 28 foot boat. I think for a raceboat that would be fine, but for the average joe out for a weekend with his family, he really doesn't need that much speed or power.

If he wants more speed we would suggest a bigger sized boat.

[Ratickle]

How much power did you have on your twin outboard boats?

[h2oMag]

I'm chiming in late on this but selling blank hulls is what put Jim Klem [Lancer, Aero, Predator & Awesome marine] on the boat builder map. In 1974 I bought his very first offshore 24' blank hull from him, from that sale he sold at least 20+ blank hulls to my friends & there friends in the next year. The hulls that were rigged by the blank hull buyers had good boats , unlike the ones he rigged & sold., they sucked!!!! Jim's greed got to him, & with the more boats he built the more the greed grew. We all know that's what lead to his down fall. My point if you could build & sell blank 26' to 28' hulls they could be a success if the price were fair. After talking with Harold @ Magnum Marine when I went there last fall there still talking about bringing back the 27' sport. The rumor mill on a base boat with a single is 200 K+, I don't think that price will sell many boats. Donzi is back building 18' classics with a base price around 80K, but I believe that's to much for that boat. I don't know the current cost of the materials needed to build a 26' to 28' boat but if it could be built for less than 18' Donzi you might have a hit.. Here is a pic of one of Jim's loosely copied 27' Magnum boats, had a nice cabin & ran well with a single. The only bad thing was that Jim was involved... Mark

[jetcruzr]

77815

Okay........here is something that we have been working on for a bit now.

This is a 28 foot boat.

It was designed as a race boat with a single big block sterndrive.

Cabin room is plenty big..... from the deck line to the bottom of the vee. Same as the 24footer, 9 feet end to end.

This would be a bolster boat with the fuel tank under the floor of the cockpit.

It is shown with race hatches in the drawing, but this could be changed to a back seat and a sun pad for the ladies.

Plenty of room for a vee berth and a porta potti and storage under there.

This race version could be purchased for someone who is just looking for a fun boat that can be used for a few hours and quickly washed down and put away.

Hull and deck with 100 gallon fuel tank and trim tabs and all electronics installed. Steering options installed also.

You tell us what engine and drive you will be using and we cut the transom for the drive and exhaust pipes.

We think we have captured the timeless look also.........

What do you think??


I really like the looks of the rendering. If I was going to build or own a 28 footer, that is exactly what I would want it to look like. The race option is a great idea too!

[old377guy]

77815

Okay........here is something that we have been working on for a bit now.

This is a 28 foot boat.

It was designed as a race boat with a single big block sterndrive.

Cabin room is plenty big..... from the deck line to the bottom of the vee. Same as the 24footer, 9 feet end to end.

This would be a bolster boat with the fuel tank under the floor of the cockpit.

It is shown with race hatches in the drawing, but this could be changed to a back seat and a sun pad for the ladies.

Plenty of room for a vee berth and a porta potti and storage under there.

This race version could be purchased for someone who is just looking for a fun boat that can be used for a few hours and quickly washed down and put away.

Hull and deck with 100 gallon fuel tank and trim tabs and all electronics installed. Steering options installed also.

You tell us what engine and drive you will be using and we cut the transom for the drive and exhaust pipes.

We think we have captured the timeless look also.........

What do you think??

Yup, that is the right look, Charlie.

[Hellbent]

77815

Okay........here is something that we have been working on for a bit now.

This is a 28 foot boat.

It was designed as a race boat with a single big block sterndrive.

Cabin room is plenty big..... from the deck line to the bottom of the vee. Same as the 24footer, 9 feet end to end.

This would be a bolster boat with the fuel tank under the floor of the cockpit.

It is shown with race hatches in the drawing, but this could be changed to a back seat and a sun pad for the ladies.

Plenty of room for a vee berth and a porta potti and storage under there.

This race version could be purchased for someone who is just looking for a fun boat that can be used for a few hours and quickly washed down and put away.

Hull and deck with 100 gallon fuel tank and trim tabs and all electronics installed. Steering options installed also.

You tell us what engine and drive you will be using and we cut the transom for the drive and exhaust pipes.

We think we have captured the timeless look also.........

What do you think??

What sort of price range are you targeting?

[Top Banana]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the feedback.

Happy to hear that we have so many that share our vision of what it should look like.

I will be speaking with some people at the Miami boat show in regards to the latest pricing on power, drives, props and the latest layup changes.

What I am thinking of for a personal play boat, would be a 700 HP, simple cabin, 5 pack bolster for a retail of under $100K

Without power, under $60K

Feedback......

[Buoy]

I think in the current market that pricing is pretty damn good!!
Honestly, I think it would be hard to build for that price.
What do you have in mind for gauges/controls? Tabs? Steering? Exhaust?

[Bobcat]

That's a pretty good price. The thing I always worry about restoring older hulls , is the fuel tank and transom. You're looking at a brand new hull, with new technology for $60K.....it's a no worries deal to me.

[Hellbent]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the feedback.

Happy to hear that we have so many that share our vision of what it should look like.

I will be speaking with some people at the Miami boat show in regards to the latest pricing on power, drives, props and the latest layup changes.

What I am thinking of for a personal play boat, would be a 700 HP, simple cabin, 5 pack bolster for a retail of under $100K

Without power, under $60K

Feedback......


That would be great! At that pricing I think it would be a very popular boat. A simple cabin is all that's necessary for a 28'. Again I look to the Pantera and Saber as great examples. Give me enough storage space for a couple of over-night bags, room for a cooler and a spot for a porta-pot and I'm all good. And I'd rather have a little more length in the v-berth/bed than long benches.....just sayin'. In most 28's the v-berth is a little short making sleeping for 2 a little cramped. An extra foot or so there would be nice.

[Ratickle]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the feedback.

Happy to hear that we have so many that share our vision of what it should look like.

I will be speaking with some people at the Miami boat show in regards to the latest pricing on power, drives, props and the latest layup changes.

What I am thinking of for a personal play boat, would be a 700 HP, simple cabin, 5 pack bolster for a retail of under $100K

Without power, under $60K

Feedback......

That would be a heck of a price based on what I know of the other boats out there in that size.

[Buoy]

That would be a heck of a price based on what I know of the other boats out there in that size.

I would say comparable boats are in the $150-175,000 range.

[Ratickle]

Now you have to decide about steps, or no steps.....

[Top Banana]

Looks like I will need to firm up the power prices a bit more when I get to the show. I have heard from several other builders that my pricing guessestimate is a bit on the low side,

Seems that a full race package Ilmor 700+ HP and Indy drive would be closer to $85,000 with a prop and steering.

So, before I dig any other holes, let me get some definite pricing on both power and new layup schedules.

I still remember the days when we bought 280 TRS packages for $3,400. Just add a prop and you were in business.

[Ratickle]

I believe the most reasonably priced package out there currently is the 520 Merc package. List about $44,000, dealer cost just over $30,000 I've heard.

[Top Banana]

I believe the most reasonably priced package out there currently is the 520 Merc package. List about $44,000, dealer cost just over $30,000 I've heard.

Not sure if the speed we could get out of a 520 package would be attractive enough for buyers.

If so, then say $44,000 power and $60,000 for boat ready to be rigged, we would be just over $100,000. Brand new everything rather than spending $100K for a used something or other and tHen the rebuilds to make it work correctly.

Is there a market for this kind of product?

[Ratickle]

On the underpowered side of your thoughts. I realize the modified Outerlimits 29 bottom is probably the current fastest bottom in a straight line out there. But, with a stock 525 in race trim that boat is still over 90 mph. Both the 520 and the 525 are rated at the propshaft I believe, so the performance differences should not be all that great (ask rthe Merc guys at the show). If you are seriously considering stepping the bottom and tweaking it similar to the Chief, I really think you could have a boat that goes over 80 for sure with the single 520. In a non-step, most likely not.

But, as I still believe, it is not the all out top speed that is the most important thing when considering your "dream" 28' boat. It is the overall practicality of cabin, amenities, towability, price, fuel usage, all water types capability, and cruise speed. I have to believe that is a 60+ mph cruise boat which gets you where you want to go at average road speeds in a car.

Also, don't forget, if you add a swim platform to the boat, it's a 30' you're now selling.

[Bobcat]

80 MPH top end with a 60 MPH cruise is the sweet spot .

[Buoy]

Also, don't forget, if you add a swim platform to the boat, it's a 30' you're now selling.

NO IT'S NOT!!! IT'S A 28' BOAT WITH A SWIMSTEP!!

[fund razor]

But, as I still believe, it is not the all out top speed that is the most important thing when considering your "dream" 28' boat. It is the overall practicality of cabin, amenities, towability, price, fuel usage, all water types capability, and cruise speed. I have to believe that is a 60+ mph cruise boat which gets you where you want to go at average road speeds in a car.

You are preaching my gospel, apostle Paul. :D

[Top Banana]

Okay then off to Miami to dig out fact from fiction re what these power packages really cost and what it actually takes to get to those speeds.

Not sure if we could market a 500 HP package for 100K that needs a $10,000 prop to get to those speeds.....or a boat that can reach those speeds, but takes two and half miles to get on plane and only runs on AV gas.

Back in the day ....at the start of a race when we were loaded with 500 plus gallons of gas........we had to trick the boat into believing it was a flat bottom to get on plane. We would start off with the throttles pushed further and further forward until the boat stopped gaining momentum....then we would flip the boat hard over on the side to actually get the boat to start to plane on the flat surface of the bottom of the vee. As it climbed up and picked up speed we would flip it back upright and be off to the start line.

Most racers would just circle around and around and never come back off plane again in fear of not being able to get,up in time for the start. BUT as we know now...Copeland not seeing Halpern and crushing him in his cockpit while waiting for the start of a race...it was really dangerous.

[old377guy]

80 MPH top end with a 60 MPH cruise is the sweet spot .

The Sweet Spot??? Really?, I guess that I've been looking in the wrong spot - which explains an awful lot.

[Bobcat]

:blush5:

[Ratickle]

You should be having some interesting conversations in Miami....