Can America ever have a real open ocean offshore race series again?

[Top Banana]

I hope this will open a dialogue with many people, both in America and anywhere else, that have an interest in this type of racing. Before we even start, let's all agree that the type of racing that we are talking about here is the historic type of offshore races, like Miami to Nassau and Around Long Island....not the shore type races that have developed over the years in the sport.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE SHORE RACES..... EXCEPT...THEY ARE NOT THE HISTORIC OR CLASSIC TYPE OF OFFSHORE RACE.

I'm not being critical, just looking for dialogue to keep the old stuff alive. Let's keep it positive here and maybe we can actually make some progress with this.

When the modern era of offshore racing started, the races were long point to point events. The first boats used were rather ordinary types of powerboats and the attrition rate was very high. Often just making it to the finish line meant you would win. The publicity that was gained by this kind of racing in the boating world, was noted by the boat manufacturers and they saw an opportunity to promote their product as not only fast, but also very reliable. As could be seen by the results of the race, their boat was safe and could bring you and your family home under actual sea conditions.

Added to this was an element of young men who were actual veterans of WWII and were looking for that combat rush that they no longer got in the civilian world. The engine manufacturers were in there too, trying to prove that this brand was the best outboard or this type of drive. Sterndrive was better than a V-Drive or straight shaft etc etc. Add in the many bilge pump and engine oil people and you had a sport that had quite a large foundation of products that could see positive benefits from participating in it.

The sport evolved into the form that seemed to be the final accepted version. When Don Aronow built and raced his 32 foot Cary in 1969, he set the bar at what has been copied ever since. A Deep Vee design boat over 30 feet, with twin big block motors set in staggered formation, driving two high speed sterndrives, carrying enough fuel for long distances and manned by a driver, throttleman and navigator. The boats grew larger as the horsepower increased and was able to power them, but the basic design and layout stayed the same. When anyone looked at a boat like that, they knew it was capable of racing offshore anywhere in the world.

I don't want to get into a cat vs a vee debate here, for the sake of this conversation let's stay with deep vees only and when we get that worked out, we can expand it further if there is interest. As the Brit's do, they limit their offshore racing to deep vees and boats with no canopies. This helps to maintain the value of the old race boats so much longer. Just look at the recent results of a older aluminum deep vee with new Ilmor power winning the Cowes race this past year.

What can we do to generate interest and support for this type of racing again? I propose a circuit of no more than 4 or 5 events per year that are geographically located around the country and actually run on the old classic courses. Around Long Island, Miami to Key West, Great Lakes and California.

[old377guy]

Charlie, thanks for your balanced approach. I seems like a positive approach to set aside the arguments about which format is "better" and simply note the historic value of the older point to point races.

[Ratickle]

I think there is opportunity to do so.

The biggest issues have started to be sorted out the last couple years with Bimini and Long Island.

Number one issue, when. I almost think the events have to be in conjunction with something else. Like the first Bimini run was with the OPA race and many of the required assetts were there for the race. So, possible choices that come to mind.

West coast.
A. San Diego used to have one that Bon Nordskog did. I don't recall the distance, but I think it was a couple laps of around 100 miles each? I'm positive Bob Teague would know. They have a speed week there that may work with it.
B. I think the Rum Run to Catalina ran every year until 2011?
3. Los Angelos to San Francisco. Does Nordskog still hold the record?

Great Lakes
A. Chicago, Milwaukee and back. Didn't T2x run that in an 18 foot outboard or something nuts like that?
B. Chicago, Michigan City, Milwaukee, Chicago.
C. Detroit, Cleveland

North East
A. Long Island
B.

South East
A. Miami, Bimini, Miami
B. Miami, Key West (One Way)
C.


What other events are around that could tie these in on the previous weekend, or maybe the day before?

What are all of the old offshore events that would make sense now days?

[ciao]

The Brits do allow canopies.73029

If only to keep Vee's cigarettes dry ;)

[ciao]

Something I put together in my spare time last year.

http://vimeo.com/28408999

Fairly sure you can do the same over there?

[Ratickle]

Nice vid, I really like the true offshore races.


I'm not so sure the classes shouldn't be revisited for over here. What do you use there as a list of classes?

[seeroy]

CIAO - WOW! You just took me 43 years back in time. My brain has the itch...too bad my body can't. - Steve Sirois

[Bobcat]

Outstanding ! I've been wanting to watch that for a couple of days.....but my computer dictates what and when I get to watch something.

[Ratickle]

CIAO - WOW! You just took me 43 years back in time. My brain has the itch...too bad my body can't. - Steve Sirois


I think you and Charlie could win that thing......


Ask George about his new shock absorber seats.....

[C35]

europeans want competition. americans want trophies- and are willing to pay for them. that's our new self-esteem thing. every kids a winner. now every adult is a winner.

too many 1 boat classes. its a joke.

[Sean Stinson]

There are a few of us out there that would love to see this kind of series come to life I for one have been very vocal a while back about it!!!!! But it seems to generate alot of interest but at the end of the day not alot of participation!!!!!

[C35]

There are a few of us out there that would love to see this kind of series come to life I for one have been very vocal a while back about it!!!!! But it seems to generate alot of interest but at the end of the day not alot of participation!!!!!

follow the money. no sponsors means the guy payin the bills makes the rules and thats the owner. Owners wanna win or at least have a trophy. offshore has never had sponsors much beyond the owners real business. boat racing is like airplane racing. few want to see it.

[Ratickle]

I think there is a small amount of thruth in that. But, thatis also part of what ruined the sport of offshore racing. These classes with one boat participating for an entire season talking about their undefeated season is rediculous. The last time I looked up "Race" in the dictionary, it was against a competitor or clock record. Then they have the audacity to talk out loud about why there is no television coverage or major sponsorship? COme on, when was the l;ast time you saw television cover any race with only one vehicle or person competing against nothing? They call those demonstrations, not competitions.....

So, in the old style offshore races, I'd have participation trophies, runs against the records that stood for that particular class with another trophy if you broke it, and classes with more than one boat would have the addition of the chance to get an additional trophy for winning their class overall, or finishing on the podium if 3 or more boats were in that class.

The difference between boat racing and airplanes, the numbers of people who own boats and drive them vs those with their own airplanes who fly them.

Somehow we have to get back to having the possibility of someone's dream coming true. Everyone out there knows their chances of racing a Geico or similar type boat is miniscule. But, almost everyone of them know they may have a chance to race a 24 Pantera or Cigarette against thier buddies 26 Velocity someday. But, we've managed to make it so there is not even a class for the two to compete on an even basis except in a GPS limited competition where the biggest, most expensive, motor wins.

So, what Charlie is proposing is a very good opportunity for those who care to make critical input towards a small solution. Those who love offshore racing should assist with positive input and "what if's" in my opinion.

[C35]

i dunno if geico did more good or harm. they drew some fans but distracted fans from the racing with their show runs.

racing will bump along aimlessly until the promoter is stronger than the racer- permanently. nascar, indy, drags works cause it costs $$$$$$$ to build a speedway.

its never gonna work with so many diff boats and classes. but nobody wants to have to buy a new hull so there's a class for every boat- and a trophy!!



whens the last time you heard a poker runner say they werent going because there wasnt enough prize money? lots of these runs draw way more than most races. why is racing different?

[Top Banana]

In the old days, the promoter, Red Crise offered you a room in Nassau if you made it over there for the Miami to Nassau race. He promoted it as the toughest race in the world. He built up the expectation of those who would participate, so if you won or just finished, you would feel like you accomplished something worthwhile. Can the racers of today be satisfied with that feeling or do they really need the trophy?

For those of us who run an offshore boat in the ocean.....we know the feeling of trying to adequately describe that to a boater who stays on a lake or bay...now magnify that 100 times and try to explain racing an offshore boat in the open ocean with 360degrees of horizon. You only were successful because you could navigate and you only won because you could navigate and run harder and faster than anyone else in real ocean conditions.

If we could only get these guys to try it just once, they would not go back to poker runs or beach racing ever again. The NY races in September attempt to do that. Either the 271 mile race for the experienced or the 100 mile race for those who want to try it. Maybe it will grow each year as more people try it.

[Bobcat]

:iagree::iagree:

[Sean Stinson]

follow the money. no sponsors means the guy payin the bills makes the rules and thats the owner. Owners wanna win or at least have a trophy. offshore has never had sponsors much beyond the owners real business. boat racing is like airplane racing. few want to see it.

I would disagree with that your point has some validity but still companies have put money into the sport and substantial amounts at different times!!!!

[Ratickle]

Other than Mercury Marine, what are some of the others who have contributed substantial amounts of time and money to promote the offshore racing classes? There was the short-lived GM support with the Vortec program, but who else?

[Top Banana]

Benihana, Hennessey Cognac, Budweiser, Witco Chemical, Amalie oil, US Coast Guard....they ran a boat in the early Miami to Nassau races.

[Ratickle]

I guess I was thinking since the fracture of the offshore ranks into several seperate organizations. We have Amsoil and Geico currently, but I believe the majority of both of their involvement with sponsorship goes toward a specific boat, not for an event or series of events.

[Pete B]

The first Miami-Bimini race was held in 2008 in conjuction with OSS. Not OPA. your fact checking up to speed! :)

And I dont mean the first one ever! the new age event if you will. which was a great event.

[Ratickle]

Yep. I wonder what is going to happen with it this year? Has anyone talked to Brad and Larry? Maybe OSS and HORBA will take it back over?

[Bobcat]

In the 90's Japan was on a roll financially, and was into racing. Right now China is on a roll, get them interested in competing in America.

[Pete B]

In the 90's Japan was on a roll financially, and was into racing. Right now China is on a roll, get them interested in competing in America.

Dont they own us??

[Pete B]

Yep. I wonder what is going to happen with it this year? Has anyone talked to Brad and Larry? Maybe OSS and HORBA will take it back over?

That would be a great task for one Ratickle, to do tomorrow, I am skeptical that it will happen though.

[Top Banana]

Yep. I wonder what is going to happen with it this year? Has anyone talked to Brad and Larry? Maybe OSS and HORBA will take it back over?

I saw a post recently that it will not run this year. It was a good start to open ocean racing again, but it suffered from some problems that were not the race promoters fault.

HORBA was involved in the first year and we could see very early on that it was hampered by first .....the date.

In June, it is usually very calm on the waters between Florida and the Bahamas. So as pointed out, that would not help the older boats hoping for an even playing field with rougher water. It provided a great venue for those who judge solely by high speeds....allowing Aqua Mania to post something like a 145 MPH average for the 106 miles.

The second big problem was ....the date.

By that point in June.... the boaters who live up north in the summer, already have their boats back up north. We only had a couple who were willing to tow back to Florida and then back home again. This kept the total number of entrants down. Although it was held in conjunction with the OSS race weekend, those boats are not really made for open ocean racing, from the size of the fuel tanks to the actual construction, so we had just few entries from the many race boats on hand.

As we hope to only do a couple of these races a year, we are trying to attract..."Sportsmen" as they were once called. Guys who love fast boats but don't want to spend a whole season traveling the circuit. These races are a chance to try racing without a big budget and still be able to enjoy their boats for the rest of the year.

The first Around Long Island race was held as Hurricane Igor hit the northeast. We raced on Saturday and on Sunday another race group in New Jersey cancelled because the water was too rough. September is usually a little rougher than the rest of the year, but that year was very rough with the effects of the hurricane.

[Ratickle]

I wonder if there is any possibility of doing something in conjunction with the OPA Championships in October from Jupiter?????


Would the weather and timing be better for a race then????

[Top Banana]

I wonder if there is any possibility of doing something in conjunction with the OPA Championships in October from Jupiter?????


Would the weather and timing be better for a race then????


October would be a nice tie in with HORBA's NY races in September. Especially the European boats who do Cowes Torquay too.

August they do Cowes...Sept they do New York.... October they do a Bimini run from Palm Beach and then they just stay and enjoy the Key West races in November. Peters and May said they can ship the boats back out of Jacksonville when they are done here.

Now all we need is someone to run the open ocean race out of Palm Beach.....

Sorry Rat....yes, the weather would be much better for real ocean racing in October......

[Ratickle]

What about leaving from Jupiter and going to Freeport??

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/ptrose/Misc%20and%20Personal%20Boats/JupiterFreeport.jpg

[Top Banana]

LOL great map. Immediately brings to mind the Bahamas 200 race back in June 80. We raced around Grand Bahama island and then to keep us all honest, they sent us from Freeport out to the
lignthouse on the north side of Bimini....straight shot out and back to the finish line.

As usual the water was flat calm and Ajac Hawk and Top banana battled side by side flat out over and back.....I pulled out ahead with about 30 miles to go by just trimming up so much the only thing in the water was the skegs and props....very flighty though.....then one of my engines started to tighten with about 5 miles to go and they started to catch and finally pass me ....they won, I came second by 30 seconds. The actual race distance over that course was 205 miles.

At the awards dinner that night they called the winners up....I marched right up and grabbed the big trophy. The APBA guy, Art Hafner looked confused. I said look at the name of the race on the trophy...Bahamas 200. Well, at the 200 mile mark I was in the lead, so it must be my trophy. We all laughed and then someone pushed Jerry in the pool and we got ready for Detroit, the next race on the circuit that year.

Back to your point on Jupiter....sure anywhere along there for a point from Florida........make it Jupiter...Freeport...Bimini...Jupiter. Really doesn't matter as long as we have 360 degrees of unbroken horizon for the race.

PS After the race we found Top Banana had a broken fuel transfer pump. That meant we had about 700 pounds of fuel we couldn't get rid of. The waters were unusually very rough for the week leading up to the race date. Race morning was flat calm, but we had filled up every tank on board preparing for a rough race. During a rough race, we would shift the weight around by transferring fuel.....if you didn.'t need the fuel in the end, you just pumped it overboard......not very politically correct, but reality back then.

[Ratickle]

Which year was it the Bahamian won the Bahamas 200? From what I recall reading once upon a time, the islands really rocked after that one......

I'll do some digging too.....

[gearhead]

Just a thought, and this might even up the playing field a little bit.
What if we do something like bracket racing, every body has to figure out how fast they can run their boat that day and state the times they will cross certain check points. Then let the slower boats go first and time them so all the boats should get to the finish line at the same time and the boat that runs closest to their time wins. It would make drivers and navigators do a lot of thinking and planning and would make for quite a finish!
When drag racing you have to know your car and your own limitations, and alot of times the slower car wins.
Just a thought????

[gearhead]

Don't forget Like in drag racing you have no way to time yourself and if you break out you lose. You figure your time, you take off with your compass and no GPS. Wouldn't it be fun to win against a million dollar boat?

[Ben]

Don't forget Like in drag racing you have no way to time yourself and if you break out you lose. You figure your time, you take off with your compass and no GPS. Wouldn't it be fun to win against a million dollar boat?

Sort of like this?

Teach Me About Predicted Log / Cruiser Navigation (http://www.predictedlog.org/Education/naca%20Teachme.html)

[gearhead]

Something similar to that but we would need differant classes like pleasure craft, sportsman, pro, super pro and unlimited.

[gearhead]

It would quite a sight to see a group of say 10 boats converging on the finish line after a 200 mile race, each one trying to figure out who has been sand bagging and if they should try to pass them up. Who ever wins gets the pot and a trophy and will hold the record time untill someone else does better. Their time might get upped the next race or stand for 10 more races.
The crowds like to see an exciting finish instead of one boat ahead of the others by an hour or two.
If anybody has done any brackett racing you will understand that there is a lot more to racing than just building the fastest and baddest car or boat, brackett racing challenges all aspects of the race. You run your race, and whoever runs the best race wins.
Once you learn brackett racing, it's as fun and challenging as it gets.

[Ratickle]

That certainly is a very interesting concept. Although, without GPS only a compass, we may not make it back.....

[T2x]

That certainly is a very interesting concept. Although, without GPS only a compass, we may not make it back.....

Please...no more GPS/bracket racing...Predicted log was an APBA class for years and it disappeared... Car rallies in the 50's and 60's also bit the dust...

Why, you ask....?

Because it wasn't...and isn't .....racing!!!!!!

This break out nonsense may work for a guy with a Camaro at his local dragstrip who can't afford to fix his car in flat out race mode....but Offshore racing is designed to test man and machine in a no holds barred race to the finish line.... anything else is a big yawn for all but the participants and their family and friends.....

T2x

[gearhead]

Hey I would like to build boat that would beat Mrs. Gieco, would you sponsor me?
Bracket racing is fun and we don't use GPS.
You can count me out cause I sure can't beat Mrs Gieco and I can't find a billionair that would sponsor me or you.
Have fun playing by yourself.
I would like to see 10 boats fighting for the finish line, not just one!
Might even be exciting for the spectators. You are living in the stone age, you might want to let some of the younger people with less money have some fun and their interest might develope into a real lively sport and their boats will get bigger and faster too.
Just like me in bracket racing I started with a cheap car and now I have a car that will run in the 8's.
Maybe someday I will be racing John Force!
Maybe someone will start out small and eventualy be able to race Mrs Gieco but if you don't develope an interest, Mrs Gieco will be playing by itself!
Remember how offshore racing started with some cabin cruisers and even houseboats, maybe we should get back to our roots!
Racing is racing whether its on your trike or your crotch rocket!
By the way, when bracket racing you run all out or you lose!

[gearhead]

I think you guys have forgot what offshore racing or any racing is! It is the story that you can tell your freinds and children, it's a story like the one Charlie wrote about going around long Island, it's not about the 50ft twin turbine that ran on flat seas from bimini and back in 45 minutes. It's the adventure and we need to get more of the younger crowd interested to continue this sport.
That is why this sport is dying, you shouldn't have to be a millionair to join in.
If I want to go fast I will get into my plane and pass up any boat that you have rode in, including Mrs Gieco.

[Ratickle]

It was a twin small-block Sonic that won the first year around Long Island.

There are good reasons for classes, the ones you just listed are the best. Allows comparable boats to run for the win without a speed or time limit. Somewhere I have the old APBA classes for offshore. They were interesting to say the least. I'll dig them up and get them posted.


As for comparing anything out there to a boat like Geico, you are not the only one who feels that way as there was no one they had to beat across the finish line the entire year. Also, don't forget, Turbine is also a GPS class with a maximum breakout speed of 150 in OPA and 155 in SBI. The penalties are pretty stiff for breaking out because of insurance issues. I do believe they can exceed that speed in Extreme Turbine in APBA with a special insurance writer if an extreme boat attends the event, but the only APBA offshore race currently scheduled is the OSS race in Biloxi. They do have the writer this year for the APBA santioned Kilo run scheduled. There may be more, just not positive at this time.

[gearhead]

There are a lot of people out there that are on a low budget and would like to experience offshore racing, it seems like there should be a way to get them in and help develope their interest.
Everyone starts somewere and it is never at the top. I remember the first boat I bought My wife called it the barnacle, it wasn't much but I was proud of it and if anyone wanted to race I would have raced it.
Anyway I hope you guys are getting my point, we can play with our faster boats and act like cavemen but who is going to step into our shoes when we are gone? We need to encourage every level of boat racing so it can continue to develope.
A lot of the top fuel drag racers started out as bracket racers, now look what they are running. There should be a way to set up bracket racing for boats and still run all out.
When I bracket race it is all out, all the way.
I am sorry to have changed the direction of the thread but sometimes you need to get to the root of the problem, Maybe my view is not that insightfull but that is the way I see it.
I would like to buy a 25ft boat or whatever as long as it fits in a catagory so I can race it and at the end of 200 mile race be nose to nose with someone across the finishline, that would be awsome!

[phragle]

Rat, when has the 150 mph turbine rule ever been enforced???

[Ratickle]

Rat, when has the 150 mph turbine rule ever been enforced???

I'm not sure it has been, but there hasn't been any competition in the class recently so the chances of any accidents go way down. This year, my opinion, is they will have to enforce it or lose their sources of insurance because of the issues with litigation. Lack of enforcement of safety rules and procedures appear to be the number one issue discussed about those events. In the race event insurance policy I know about first hand, it was written in the policy that 150mph was max, period (OPA). SBI strengthened their penalties for surpassing the 155mph rule last year with disqualifications and being barred from competition for the season.

[Top Banana]

It was a twin small-block Sonic that won the first year around Long Island.

There are good reasons for classes, the ones you just listed are the best. Allows comparable boats to run for the win without a speed or time limit. Somewhere I have the old APBA classes for offshore. They were interesting to say the least. I'll dig them up and get them posted. .

Old APBA class rules were.

PRODUCTION P - M - S

P Class was bone stock engines no more than 700 cu in with stock sterndrives.
M Class was some modifications allowed, bluprinting, same cu in limit and stock sterndrives
S Class Headers, heavy motorwork plus speedmaster drives

OPEN CLASS I and II

Big block motors, limit 1,000 cu in combined

Open I were twin engine boats
Open II were single engine boats

AV gas was the norm and speedmasters were used in all Open classes...or Arnesons.

The Around Long Island race has a class for single engine 24 footers for either the full race, 271 miles or the shorter 100 mile race. You have a boat, bring it and run it, the experience is more important than the actual result.

[T2x]

I think you guys have forgot what offshore racing or any racing is!

Really? I'll try to remember that......

[gearhead]

Really? I'll try to remember that......

Thats pretty good, so far two negative remarks and both referancing how great you are.
Maybe we should here from you how you started, or maybe you just started at the top and skipped all the steps that a lot of racers go through.
What we need from YOU and other ICON's is some guidance and some input on how to make this sport grow and how to foster interest in the younger generation. They seem to be setting around and playing video games instead of being exposed to the real world. We need to expose them and teach them about offshore racing or any other type of boat racing. They need to see it on tv or in person and to think they could join it at lower levels and work their way up. They need to see it and say yes I could do that also, Not just see Mrs Gieco and think they could never do it.
If you want to save offshore racing you need to start promoting it at the lower levels, that way there is a base of people to draw from.
You seem to be pretty well in the know, maybe you have some insight that would help.
How about some idea's!

[T2x]

both referancing how great you are.

Please provide those quotes........

I would love to see where I said how great I am.

If you can't.....perhaps you should re-examine the rest of your passionate verbal flailing.

Look, nobody wants to see boat racing succeed more than I do...and, for the record, I started with a home built outboard "pumpkinseed" on a kid's budget. However, at no time did I expect, nor want, any other boat racer to limit his speed so I could "keep up".

The sport is in very bad shape right now and it needs good, fact based ideas with proper safety and promotional budgets. Amateur motor racing is under attack all across the country and new federal laws and litigations are increasing by the day it seems. The antidote is money, professional resources, focus, COMPETITION, and marketing..."But what if I can't afford that?????"........ you ask? I don't have any "iconic" answers other than for you to get the chip off your shoulder and try to understand the magnitude of the problem. Past generations worked very hard to build the sport only to have it split up and pissed away. If you can find some ready made short cut solution to elbow grease and dedication, then have at it...... Maybe someday you, too, will be an "Icon".... but you may find all that means is you're a "used to be", rather than a "never was".

T2x

[OneBadInjun]

Please provide those quotes........

I would love to see where I said how great I am.

If you can't.....perhaps you should re-examine the rest of your passionate verbal flailing.

Look, nobody wants to see boat racing succeed more than I do...and, for the record, I started with a home built outboard "pumpkinseed" on a kid's budget. However, at no time did I expect, nor want, any other boat racer to limit his speed so I could "keep up".

The sport is in very bad shape right now and it needs good, fact based ideas with proper safety and promotional budgets. Amateur motor racing is under attack all across the country and new federal laws and litigations are increasing by the day it seems. The antidote is money, professional resources, focus, COMPETITION, and marketing..."But what if I can't afford that?????"........ you ask? I don't have any "iconic" answers other than for you to get the chip off your shoulder and try to understand the magnitude of the problem. Past generations worked very hard to build the sport only to have it split up and pissed away. If you can find some ready made short cut solution to elbow grease and dedication, then have at it...... Maybe someday you, too, will be an "Icon".... but you may find all that means is you're a "used to be", rather than a "never was".

T2x

Really? That's the best response you could come up with, to this threads commentary? Let's try to be a get along & be a bit more respectful to everyone, o.k? Thanks

[T2x]

Really? That's the best response you could come up with, to this threads commentary?

I wasn't aware I had some standard to live up to... I'll be sure to send my responses to you for editing in the future...

T2x

[OneBadInjun]

Let's try to be a get along & be a bit more respectful to everyone, o.k? Thanks Once again...

[gearhead]

T2x
Thanks for your resonse, at least we are getting some information and out here and some reasons why this sport is haveing problems. Hopefully we can identify some problems and do something about them.
Maybe a little brain storming would be inline here and lets overcome some of these problems.

By the way meeting you in person would be an honor and a high point in my life, even if you did bust my nose!

Anyway lets figure out a way give this sport a shot in the arm.
There will always be change in the way things are done, we just need to adapt to the differant needs in todays world.

[gearhead]

By the way running a 8 second 1/4 mile car in bracket racing doesn't sound like its speed is to limited, it's all out.

[OneBadInjun]

There will always be change in the way things are done, we just need to adapt to the differant needs in todays world. You hit the nail on the head with this comment gearhead. This is what you younger generations, as well as us older folks, need to always keep in mind...and your good to go.

[gearhead]

I wasn't aware I had some standard to live up to... I'll be sure to send my responses to you for editing in the future...

T2x

T2x
You are right, please say what you want. But hopfully we will try to stay on the subject of finding a solution or cure for this dying sport.
Drag racing is having the same problem and I think it is because we forgot about the younger crowd, we need a class for home built pumkinseeds so we can promote and develop race boat drivers.
We need to provide steping stones to the top becuase someday that is were they will be, and we can sit in our easy chair and be proud of what we did. If we don't we will be sitting around saying what happened!
Maybe we should have a junior offshore category? Just like junior dragsters.
I think that bracket racing would work real good in the smaller boats say under 30 ft.
Their is a lot more sandbagging going on in open racing then in bracket racing.
In bracket racing the faster you go the less time you will be off, 3% of 8 seconds is less than 3% of 15 seconds so you want to run as fast as you can. It is fun to watch because you don't know who is going to win untill they cross the finish line!

[Top Banana]

If you have a boat that you feel is safe for ocean racing, bring it to NY in September. If the boat fits into the wide open classes we have provided, you can start your offshore career. Safety is paramount, if your boat passes the ...Is it safe to race? question, it is in. Pleaseread the rules or contact Billy Frenz directly at NPBA.

Entry fees were $600 until March 31st.....Billy has the latest increase posted on his web site. Classes are on the HORBA site. Historic Offshore Race Boat Association - Boca Raton, FL (http://www.historicraceboats.com)

[gearhead]

OK, but I have a few questions. Say I buy a 24 ft boat, what kind of speed should it run to be competitive in the historic or D class?
Should it be twin engine if it is an outboard and how do I tell if the boat is safe for offshore racing?
Does it need flush cleats and no hand rail or is that for the faster boats?
Does it need floatation foam in the hull?
Any sugestions would be great I am looking at a 1970's boat that is an outboard. Read the rules but they left a lot to the imagination.
I want to run in a race at least once if I can, it's on my bucket list.
Also can a person modify the boat such as changing the seating position for better balance, say if it is nose heavy.
Are these classes more like a run what you brung?
Could you tell me what would be recommended equipment or specs from your experiences, and what is actually required for these two classes or where to find this info?
Thanks for the help!

[Ratickle]

Man, I'm trying to think of someone close to you who could help, but can't at the moment. Here's my opinion for anyone on a budget:

1. Pick a hull with good history, Pantera, Skater, etc.
2. Find a race team who runs that model.
3. Send them an email, or get ahold of one of the race orgs, and follow their recomendations.

In a 70's outboard boat, there are numerous guys on here who have run them. One of the fastest, and therefore trickiest to drive, is a Velocity. But, when compared to a later model step hull, not as much experience and seat time is needed and they are as fast, or very close.

A straight bottom Vee, like a Pantera 24 or similar, are probably the most forgiving, but also take the most power for the same top speed as a step or pad bottom.

What hulls are you considering?


And I'd say in a 24 you'd want twins. A single in an offshore Vee style is probably 65mph best case that size.

[gearhead]

What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal. – Albert Pike
Very true but may be a little deep for here.

[Ratickle]

Never anything too deep for here......


There are numerous things which need to be done to get the sport back in the forefront of motosporting like it was at one time. Talking about what worked, and what hasn't worked, is one of them.

My opinion, in order of importance, kind of goes like this....


1. Money

[gearhead]

Its kind of hard to get money when no one knows what to do with it. Get some valid ideas then get the money. If you have no plan, you can't do anything even if you have all the money in the world.
If you think money is the only thing needed to make something work then it's not worth doing.
We need a real promoter to get things going.
Anybody have any ideas??????????????? So far no one has had any ideas or input on how to improve things.
If I didn't live in middle of nowhere I could have some fun with this.

[gearhead]

Just another thought, What if there was a class for electric boats? Then we would be starting out developing new technology and we might be able to find real backers.
They are doing that with airplanes now and there has been some real success. There are 200 mph 4 passenger planes capable of 100 miles plus. There are new batteries that are available to increase the range by 5 to 10 times. Electric motors have insane amount of torque and bateries have a recharge time in the minutes verses hours. There are solar panels that will recharge the batteries at the dock during the week and then play on the weekends for free.
There are some really fast cars and bikes already, we are "missing the boat"
There will be a real market for this in the near future, they might be slower than you want at first but they would develope in to faster and faster boats and like brownie says the "beat goes on!"
Maybe this is where we get some money ,sponsors and maybe development money from the government so we can go play!

[mdkeywest]

Just another thought, What if there was a class for electric boats? Then we would be starting out developing new technology and we might be able to find real backers.
They are doing that with airplanes now and there has been some real success. There are 200 mph 4 passenger planes capable of 100 miles plus. There are new batteries that are available to increase the range by 5 to 10 times. Electric motors have insane amount of torque and bateries have a recharge time in the minutes verses hours. There are solar panels that will recharge the batteries at the dock during the week and then play on the weekends for free.
There are some really fast cars and bikes already, we are "missing the boat"
There will be a real market for this in the near future, they might be slower than you want at first but they would develope in to faster and faster boats and like brownie says the "beat goes on!"
Maybe this is where we get some money ,sponsors and maybe development money from the government so we can go play!

,YES WE CAN !!!!! LOL

[Top Banana]

Entries are starting to come in now for the New York Speed Festival weekend. On Friday evening more members for the NPBA Hall of Fame are to be inducted. Saturday morning at 8 AM, both races start from the buoy off Port Washington, NY. One group will be competing in the 271 mile 3rd annual Don Aronow Memorial Around Long Island Marathon.

Starting at the same time with the Don Aronow group, the first annual Bill Wishnick Trophy Dash. This is a 100 mile race that starts at Port Washington and will go along the northern coast of Long Island and end at Orient Point. The entire course is on Long Island Sound.

We have a lot of interest and entries so far in this class, as it gives the "Gentlemen Sportsmen" an opportunity to try this type of racing without having to modify their boats for the longer distance race.

Entry fees were $600 for the Don Aronow Marathon and $300 for the Bill Wishnick Trophy Dash. That was until the end of March. For current entry fees, please check the section on the Don Aronow race on the NPBA website. The later you wait to enter, the higher the entry fee will be.

Sunday will be a high end auto concours with Ferraris, Porsches, Lamborghinis and other exotic cars.

[Ratickle]

Maybe you should add a third course to challenge those who wanted to. Turn around at Orient Point and come back on the protected side of the island in the Sound.

[lohring]

Electric boats are already running. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yNu2_LlO9s&feature=g-user-u m The problem is you can't have performance and endurance at the same time. There's no way an electric boat could compete with internal combustion in a real offshore race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwViZLfRwBA&feature=g-user-u).

Lohring Miller

[Ratickle]

He may be on to something though....



Just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean the US Government won't give you money to spend on it.......:)

[Ratickle]

Its kind of hard to get money when no one knows what to do with it. Get some valid ideas then get the money. If you have no plan, you can't do anything even if you have all the money in the world.
If you think money is the only thing needed to make something work then it's not worth doing.
We need a real promoter to get things going.
Anybody have any ideas??????????????? So far no one has had any ideas or input on how to improve things.
If I didn't live in middle of nowhere I could have some fun with this.


There are several issues that have not changed since JC split off the very first organization from APBA and started his celebrity racer group organization. Since that time, splinter orgs, not falling under the UIM and therefore APBA have come and gone. The biggest underlying factor, in my opinion, is the rules are different for every org so racers cannot go race what makes sense to them. A good example, this year in Michigan area, we may have Tawas, St Clair, Port Huron, and Michigan City. Because of the schedules in this area, the three OPA races make sense to anyone who has a race boat and lives in this area. But, the Michigan City race, SBI, would also make sense because of the proximity, and the esire to possibly run the Key West Worlds that so many racers like to participate in. However, if you have a competitive boat in 6, 5, 4, 3, or SVL in OPA, you do not have a class competitive boat in SBI.

I think this is truly the number one issue when it comes to attracting racers and boats. Until all of the current orgs get together on rules, and not having events on the same weekends, the sport will continue to decline or stay in its current minimized participation. It's tough to attract participation, and sponsors, when it seems as if the most important issue is trying to make the other orgs fail vs trying to promote the sport.

That's why I say money. Only the most money has the opportunity to solidify the rules, and therefore the racers.

[Ratickle]

What would your Number One issue be?

Or a Top 5 in order maybe?

And Lohring, you've done more with electric boats than anyone. The best car out there can only currently go about 40 miles before it switches to fuel supply. That would mean about 5 to 8 miles in a boat if what I've read about water drag vs the rolling drag on a car is correct. Did you guys study that when going after the record?

[lohring]

We started with a 1/4 scale model when we thought we had to run lead acid batteries. When the rules changed, we realized from model boat guys that we actually had more power available than small internal combustion outboards. That's when Mike decided to go to a proven Ron Jones outboard hydro design that had run in the 80 mph area.

We got one of Bob Wartinger's special props and pushed the boat from 80 to over 100 mph in testing. We carefully set two buoys 1 kilometer apart for testing and checked how much battery we had. It was enough for 3 to maybe 4 passes. Since we only ran two passes for the records, it looked like we had lots of battery. Unlike previous electric boats that got towed to the course, we drove from the dock to the course and back. The thing that freaked everyone out the most is Mike stopped the boat between passes to check everything. People thought something broke.

We had limited generator capacity so we could only charge 1/2 the batteries at a time. It took two hours of charging for a few minutes of run time. So much for green energy. With modern batteries, brushless motors and matching speed controls, all this could be improved on. Electrics still have a long way to go in performance boats. That doesn't even start to get into costs. Our batteries cost $14,000 though lithium polymer batteries are better and less expensive now.

Lohring Miller

[Ratickle]

I see where James started a thread on Electric Powered Offshore Race Boats

Based on what you found out, should really be an interesting discussion.


And when are you going back to break the 100mph mark????