Advise from my gear head friends

[CruiserJohn]

Hey guys... as those of you who know me knows I just bought a new (used) boat. Its a Rinker Fiesta Vee 300 with Twin Mercruiser small blocks carborated. I will pause for you to regain composure as I know 520 HP is a joke to you all. Those of you who know me well knows Im the furthest thing from a gear head, however my friend Tom noticed that the Carbs were double barreled as opposed to 4 barrel. His assumption was that Mercruiser must have come out with this for Fuel efficiency, however, but will also limit my speed and RPM's. Now I know that we are not talking major speed, but would it be worth it for me to consider changing the carbs out to four barrel to increase my RPM's and speed some or should I just stick to 35 MPH and enjoy the fact that I will be choaking down far less fuel at $6 a gallon? Tom had never seen this before and wondered if you all were familiar with this approach by mercruiser. thanks

[redhotsommer]

Stay with two-barrel and enjoy. Gas is supposed to hit record prices this summer...you don't want to burn more of it if you don't have to.

[CruiserJohn]

thanks, that was my thought, but I dont know engines very well.

[Ratickle]

Right now I'm with Mike on this. But;

What year is the boat?
I'm assuming Alpha drives?
What do the engines say on them as far as Merc Model?

The Merc guys will know if there are easy, reasonably priced, upgrades that may help and not hurt fuel economy.

[CruiserJohn]

1997 5.7L I dont know the merc Model, I can look this weekend when I go back out there. Has Bravo II's

[Ratickle]

1997 5.7L I dont know the merc Model, I can look this weekend when I go back out there. Has Bravo II's


Well, here's what we have to choose from....


72744

[OBNOXUS]

Would gain HP obviously,,,,, fuel mileage wouldnt be to bad if you kept out of the back barrels.

Worth it $$$$ not really.

[redhotsommer]

Hahaha! When I saw you had posted, I figured it would be to tell him to put fuel injection on it! (Which I have, btw...if the O.P. is interested...) ;)

[OBNOXUS]

well ,,,,,now that you mention it,,,,,,,it would improve throttle response,,,,, fuel economy,,,,driveability,,,,ease of start up ( I still have your video :) )

But again,,,,,not worth the $$$$$

[C35]

cant say ive ever seen a 350 2bbl. A holley 600 on a dual plane would prob do you well. and you dont have to push the levers all the way forward. theres a huge fuel efficiency difference between 80pct and full throttle on pretty much every boat

[ICDEDPPL]

I say you go for it John cause if gas is $5/gal I`ll be on your boat every weekend and I wanna go fast dammit!

[Ratickle]

Actually, every boat I've owned that I've converted to fuel injection has got much better fuel milage....


No exceptions. Even when I've doubled the horsepower......

[OBNOXUS]

Actually, every boat I've owned that I've converted to fuel injection has got much better fuel milage....


No exceptions. Even when I've doubled the horsepower......

Finally !!!! someone on my side !!!! LOL

[Donskihp]

If you change carbs you might want to think about changing cams, cams won't let but so much fuel mix into the engine. If that engine was engineered for 2- 2 barrels you may have some pretty small cams in it.

[CruiserJohn]

Great advise guys! Now who wants to come and do this work for beer! Lol

[CruiserJohn]

Dan, welcome on our boat anytime... Just leave the speedo on the baja!

[ICDEDPPL]

NEVEEEERRRR!!!!!

[MILD THUNDER]

John, save your money. Your not going to gain much, if anything by just adding a 4 barrel carb to those engines. Even if you gained 10HP, you'll never notice it in that boat. A freshly painted smooth bottom and props are what you wanna focus on!

$6.00 a gallon?? I wish someone would have told me this was happening a few months ago. As a matter of fact, I may be interested in your two barrel carbs John, I'll trade you for 4 850CFM four barrels.

[ICDEDPPL]

That blower look familiar.. whats next Joe you gonna start blowing Bravos??


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/DanBaloun/Boat/thunder.jpg

I like the red carbs better thou I`ll give you that

[MILD THUNDER]

That blower look familiar.. whats next Joe you gonna start blowing Bravos??


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/DanBaloun/Boat/thunder.jpg

I like the red carbs better thou I`ll give you that

Thank you, I too like the red/black carbs. I am glad to be done painting them. Two are totally rebuilt and painted. Need to finish the other two tonight or tomorrow. Painting them while totally apart is a pain in the a$$, but looks a little more trick when assembled. Taping off the top of the carb and painting the whole thing one color would have been alot easier!

[ICDEDPPL]

I remember always trying to play with the 4 adjustment screws trying to make it idle at less that 950rpms without surge.. cold starts were a bitch, the motor needed like 5 minutes warm up before it would stay running under load
man I don`t miss that.

Fuel injection FTW:driving:

[MILD THUNDER]

[QUOTE=ICDEDPPL;579819]"I remember always trying to play with the 4 adjustment screws" QUOTE]


Well theres your problem! Jk

Now if only you had those 600SC's in the Baja, some chillers and some smaller pulleys, and you'd have a 95mph ride!

[MILD THUNDER]

Hey Dan, BTW, do you remember how many lbs of boost your gauge showed at WFO on your stock 600?

[ICDEDPPL]

WOT right around 5psi knee grow.. WFO? what is that Wide Fu ckin Open?

I think my pulley was smaller .



[QUOTE=ICDEDPPL;579819]"I remember always trying to play with the 4 adjustment screws" QUOTE]


Well theres your problem! Jk

Now if only you had those 600SC's in the Baja, some chillers and some smaller pulleys, and you'd have a 95mph ride!

yes and lots of extra Bravo parts. woohooo

[OBNOXUS]

I think my pulley was smaller .




I heard that about you !!!! :26:

[ICDEDPPL]

NICE! :ack2::cheers2:

[Ratickle]

I think my pulley was smaller .


I heard that about you !!!! :26:


:eek:


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/ptrose/littlepenis.gif

[ICDEDPPL]

You`re all just jealous of my 4" and my paper route!!

[Ratickle]

You`re all just jealous of my 4" and my paper route!!


:sifone:

[MILD THUNDER]

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/bananaheadbanger.gif

[Cig Flat Deck]

72768Mine start and run just fine. Blower surge is sweet.

[MILD THUNDER]

72768Mine start and run just fine. Blower surge is sweet.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/agree.gif

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/rockout.gif

[Ratickle]

Sometimes it will drive you nuts though. Especially when you're trying to ease it in and dock, pop it in gear, oops, sorry......

[MILD THUNDER]

Normally it can be tuned out. If the idle mixture screws are backed out too far, or the speed screw adjusted to far in, it will surge up and down like a sob. Just dynoed a friends engines last week. 588CI with 8.3L whipple, intercooler, and twin 1050 Carbs. Granted the whipple design helps, but none the less, the surge was able to be tuned out, and engines idled at steady at 1150RPM. Keep in mind these engines have very big cams, that kept pulling and making power. They did a 7000RPM pull, peak hp still climibing. The hyd valvetrain wouldnt have liked anymore, so that was as fast as they'd take it.

Sure sounds nice :cheers2:

[OBNOXUS]

The Mike and Joe HP battle begins !!!!

[Cig Flat Deck]

I wanted the blower surge and dry pipes. Mine fires up cold and stays running. No horsing around with the throttles. With the speedmasters and cleavers the blower surge helps with docking. If everything was tuned right you don't have to mess with the carbs or worry about the engines dying out when shifting

[ICDEDPPL]

oh yeah at 1200rpm they sure idle sweet but the ol bravos slam hard anything over 900.
Anyway you carb cheerleaders, I prefer to do my tuning with a laptop instead of a screwdriver in a 1955 time machine :kiss:

[Cig Flat Deck]

That's where you bravo baby boomers have it all wrong.lmao Run a transmission and no worrys. And who doesn't love a 1955 chevy. I know I do

[ICDEDPPL]

One day when i grow up I will have a trans.. one day.. :iagree:
someday

[redhotsommer]

You...like the rest of us...will NEVER grow up. Face it.

[MILD THUNDER]

The Mike and Joe HP battle begins !!!!

Mike is in the lead. 1205HP. over 1000ft lbs of torque from 3700RPM to 6500RPM. Although, Joey is making some changes now, so we will see! When it comes to the water tests, my money is on the 38 Fever with the #6's though!

[OBNOXUS]

Yup,,,,will see Thurs,,,,,if Pro Systems is right,,,,maybe tickling 1300,,,,,ugh

[MILD THUNDER]

Yup,,,,will see Thurs,,,,,if Pro Systems is right,,,,maybe tickling 1300,,,,,ugh

Those engines are gonna have more run time on the dyno than they've had in the boat in a year! And I thought I was nuts!

[MILD THUNDER]

[QUOTE=ICDEDPPL;580096]oh yeah at 1200rpm they sure idle sweet but the ol bravos slam hard anything over 900.
Anyway you carb cheerleaders, I prefer to do my tuning with a laptop instead of a screwdriver in a 1955 time machine :kiss:[/QUOTE

I'll keep my laptop for looking up porn, and keep using the screwdrivers for now when it comes to fun. :boxing_smiley:

[ICDEDPPL]

ok apples to oranges Joe.

Lets do apples to apples Dan:

1955 Chevy say hello to 2012 chevy

72788

72789

[OBNOXUS]

Those engines are gonna have more run time on the dyno than they've had in the boat in a year! And I thought I was nuts!

Lmao,,,,,you may be right at this point !!!!

less to mess with when its together right !!!!???

[MILD THUNDER]

Lmao,,,,,you may be right at this point !!!!

less to mess with when its together right !!!!???

I think we should get Fountain stickers made up for borowski's dyno!! lol

[Tony M]

I think we should get Fountain stickers made up for borowski's dyno!! lol Oh ! Dam I Got Burn Along Time Ago At That Place ! Sure Hope Something Has CHANGED !

[MILD THUNDER]

Oh ! Dam I Got Burn Along Time Ago At That Place ! Sure Hope Something Has CHANGED !

Yes, new owner, and new team working there now. Good group of guys.

[Tony M]

Yes, new owner, and new team working there now. Good group of guys. That's What I have found out from 1 other person But you Can't change a bad memory sure hope what he has said is True ! Because if it is and if that one guy stays "Zap"
I would hesitate going to See Him ! :seeya:

[OBNOXUS]

They didnt build the motor anyway.

Just using the dyno.

Today is the big day !!!

[Ratickle]

They didnt build the motor anyway.

Just using the dyno.

Today is the big day !!!



We're waiting!!!!!!:toetap05:

[OBNOXUS]

OH MY !!!!!!

[kerigoff]

Is dave running it on the dyno? Smack him around if he is! He knew Brian, Brian did his first paint job on his dragster. He built both of the elders motors and well I hope next year to have some help from him to finish one of Boo's other unfinished projects...

[OBNOXUS]

yup,,,,its Dave.

Water line broke to the dyno.

I replumbed it and letting PVC glue dry,,,,,try again tomorrow !!!

[kerigoff]

Well you boys r in good hands. He's a smart one and he genuinely loves what he does. When we built the 509 for the Chevelle I worked right up the street and spent many lunchs hanging out there with Ted and Sharon. Dave and I became friends being the same age and I was thoroughly impressed with how the place looks with the new owner.

[MILD THUNDER]

Well you boys r in good hands. He's a smart one and he genuinely loves what he does. When we built the 509 for the Chevelle I worked right up the street and spent many lunchs hanging out there with Ted and Sharon. Dave and I became friends being the same age and I was thoroughly impressed with how the place looks with the new owner.

Dave is very cool!! Small world.

I will say though, I am pretty impressed with the whole procharger deal. Considering there is nothing exotic about the engines themselves, they are gonna make real close to 1300HP In my guess now that the bugs are worked out, and it can be pulled a bit higher. Today they made 1221 I think at 6000RPM, but that was as high as it was pulled. Power keeps climbing.

The thing that impresses me, is 522CI, which is small by todays standards, just a little 4" stroke crank. Edelbrock aluminum heads with little runners, stock!!! No fancy CNC heads,I would bet that with a 871 roots, they'd be lucky to make 800-850HP on pump gas with the longblock combo he has. Granted I personally would detune these a bit if they were going in my boat, but......

[kerigoff]

Whats all that shiny chit? Are those the things that make it whistle? Who you gonna pay to clean them? Just Kidding Joe. I do agree that a 522 is small in today's world. The 509 just had some nice Lunati rods, cam with some easy head work on the stock heads and the stock intake until it was replaced with an edelbrock. My favorite part was the demon 1050, no doubt! When it was on the dyno I think it did about 650.

I don't get to play around with those type things much anymore, but I sure would like to know what the noticable difference will be when I put a big box of parts on my bike! :)72861

[MILD THUNDER]

I won't be polishing any of that shiny stuff cuz they ain't mine, they are the other joeys engines! I'm getting away from all that polished stuff, too much upkeep!

I'm sure Dave can get that bike running!

[kerigoff]

The bike is my project to cuss n scream at! I think I can handle doing the 2 into 1 exhaust and the naked air kit. That power commander scares me though! I got black exhaust for it because I want to ride not clean! Thankfully I have both of Brian's bikes stored at a friend who is retired. He's been a huge help with keeping them clean and starting both of them.

[redhotsommer]

yup,,,,its Dave.

Water line broke to the dyno.

I replumbed it and letting PVC glue dry,,,,,try again tomorrow !!!

HOLY CRAP. Joey just posted it on Facebook. That boat is gonna be retarded.

[ICDEDPPL]

I have lost track of what the F we`re talking about!?!?

[CruiserJohn]

I was just thinking the same thing.. you fricking go fasters are all the same! lol.. we were talking about my 260 horse double barrel bad ass 30 mph motors...

[ICDEDPPL]

then some shop, someones motors, then a motorcycle, facebook, some boat..:huh::huh::huh:

[redhotsommer]

Joey's 42 Fountain. Motors dynoed out at 1298 each. He might want to buy those two-barrels from you CruiserJohn...I can't imagine 1300 hp is gonna be too good on gas...

[ICDEDPPL]

Don`t know this Joey but someone should mention maybe upgrading to Bravo XR top cap might be a good idea haha

[MILD THUNDER]

I'd be worried about #6's at those power levels!

[OBNOXUS]

16 lbs of boost !!!!! :willy_nilly:

I will be wering my helmet and borrowing Tony M's Lifeline jacket for the test drive

And yes,,,,Im serious !!!!!!

[MILD THUNDER]

16 lbs of boost !!!!! :willy_nilly:

I will be wering my helmet and borrowing Tony M's Lifeline jacket for the test drive

And yes,,,,Im serious !!!!!!

I think you should wear a snowmobile helmet, and a el cheapo orange lifejacket that goes around the neck.

[Tony M]

I think you should wear a snowmobile helmet, and a el cheapo orange life jacket that goes around the neck. Still Have My Life Line , And Wow Can You Feel The Love From My Cuz Cheapo Orange life Jacket I Surprised He Didn't Tell You To ware it Backwards Just in case you Fall Out !

[MILD THUNDER]

Wow, was Ken sent me that last dyno sheet. Den, if those AFR ratio numbers on the right are correct, that is WAY lean for it to survive in a boat. Those numbers need to be in the low 11's, in my opinion. It may fatten up in the boat, but I dont think two full points. I'd rather have to pull a jet size or two out when installed. Wednesdays pulls were showing we were going in the right direction jetting it up, when the dyno broke. What happened!! i would be concerned with those AFR numbers on a N/A 502, let alone a 15psi blown engine. 13.7? Thats getting a little too close to stoich. A 2012 Ford Escape V6 would probably have a full throttle AFR reading similar to that.

Two things I would do. Make Joseph spend a few hundred and take his tails to the welder, and put 02 bungs in them. Then, borrow a wideband and check while running the boat. The 02 wont lie, and I wouldnt trust plug readings on a 1300HP marine engine. Second thing, drop the boost to 10-11 PEAK psi. It will still make 1100HP. Im not sure how much cylinder psi those MLS headgaskets can withstand?

:eek:

[OBNOXUS]

The thought process was, with marine exhaust, and in an engine compartment at 120 degrees and 80 percent humidity,,,, it is going to fatten up.

And your right,,,,,I would have an 02 sensor on it if it was mine.

Remember what I said in the beginning of all this !!!!???

I have no opinion,,,,,give me a complete motor and I will rig the boat !!!!!

[redhotsommer]

....don't forget DRIVE the boat too...

Joey is gonna be too scared.

(I would be too!)

[OBNOXUS]

....don't forget DRIVE the boat too...

Joey is gonna be too scared.

(I would be too!)

And apparently the only one actually IN the boat.

He says he will be watching from shore !!!!

[MILD THUNDER]

The thought process was, with marine exhaust, and in an engine compartment at 120 degrees and 80 percent humidity,,,, it is going to fatten up.

And your right,,,,,I would have an 02 sensor on it if it was mine.

Remember what I said in the beginning of all this !!!!???



I have no opinion,,,,,give me a complete motor and I will rig the boat !!!!!

I hear that. I'd still rather see it jetted perfect on the dyno, then pull fuel when in the boat if needed! But hey, they aint mine.

Here is one of Eddie youngs 1025 EFI engines. Take a look at his boost numbers, and his AFR readings on the dyno. 11.8 at full tilt. Thats with dyno headers too. He does usually tune after installed in the boat, with a wideband. Maybe thats why Eddie doesnt have comebacks on his engines though. Him and I were talking a few weeks back regarding valvesprings. I had asked him if tool room springs were worth the money on something like my setup. His reply was "I just got a set of my 925's that make around 950HP in for a freshen up. 350 hours on them and the crane springs tested within 5psi of each other, so I'd say the crane's would be just fine for you"

350 Hours from a 950HP blown marine engine before a freshen up?!! Works for ME!

-hjM0BJHpjY

[MILD THUNDER]

And apparently the only one actually IN the boat.

He says he will be watching from shore !!!!

Yes, he did say that! lol

I'll also be watching from shore cheering for ya Den. The odd thing is i will have a helmet on too, except i'll be on shore.

[Ratickle]

So the boat's gonna be driven by remote control??????

[OBNOXUS]

By me,,,,,,UGH nice knowing you all !!!

[redhotsommer]

By me,,,,,,UGH nice knowing you all !!!

Dear Dennis,

Could you make sure we get the work done on my boat before you test drive Joeys? Thanks.

Love,
mike

[B.Z.]

Dear Dennis,

Could you make sure we get the work done on my boat before you test drive Joeys? Thanks.

Love,
mike


DITTO...Love BZ

[WETTE VETTE]

Wow, was Ken sent me that last dyno sheet. Den, if those AFR ratio numbers on the right are correct, that is WAY lean for it to survive in a boat. Those numbers need to be in the low 11's, in my opinion. It may fatten up in the boat, but I dont think two full points. I'd rather have to pull a jet size or two out when installed. Wednesdays pulls were showing we were going in the right direction jetting it up, when the dyno broke. What happened!! i would be concerned with those AFR numbers on a N/A 502, let alone a 15psi blown engine. 13.7? Thats getting a little too close to stoich. A 2012 Ford Escape V6 would probably have a full throttle AFR reading similar to that.

Two things I would do. Make Joseph spend a few hundred and take his tails to the welder, and put 02 bungs in them. Then, borrow a wideband and check while running the boat. The 02 wont lie, and I wouldnt trust plug readings on a 1300HP marine engine. Second thing, drop the boost to 10-11 PEAK psi. It will still make 1100HP. Im not sure how much cylinder psi those MLS headgaskets can withstand?

:eek:

I agree with you that the O2 sensor doesn't lie, but it is giving you the average of that cylinder bank. Even on boosted engines its not umcommon for the A/F to vary from cyl to cyl as much as .5. This is why plug checks should be mandatory to verify what the O2 is saying on each cylinder not to mention timing and plug heat range checks. Now if the average O2 was 11.0 there would be more of a cushion to cover the potential lean cylinder. Imagine if the average is 13.5 and one cylinder (#7) is 14.0 under that boost / power level!! Too bad the dyno sheet doesn't have fuel flow or BSFC's listed. A lot of engine shops rely on the fuel being consumed more than the O2's to get the motor dialed in.

[OBNOXUS]

Dear Dennis,

Could you make sure we get the work done on my boat before you test drive Joeys? Thanks.

Love,
mike

Actually think Im going to sneak you in by next weekend.

I will have a small window of time and all that crap,,,,,er,,,, I mean your transom and drives are taking up alot pf space !!!!

[ICDEDPPL]

I'd be worried about #6's at those power levels!

One thing I learned from my drag racing days and forgot about with my first boat...the rat race for more power and speed just brings more headaches and an empty wallet.
Damn I`m getting old
:bday:

[Ratickle]

Very interesting discussion....


Does anyone have a set of headers he can borrow with sensors in every cylinder? On my Haltech engines, that was what we used so we could go cylinder by cylinder to balance.

[MILD THUNDER]

I agree with you that the O2 sensor doesn't lie, but it is giving you the average of that cylinder bank. Even on boosted engines its not umcommon for the A/F to vary from cyl to cyl as much as .5. This is why plug checks should be mandatory to verify what the O2 is saying on each cylinder not to mention timing and plug heat range checks. Now if the average O2 was 11.0 there would be more of a cushion to cover the potential lean cylinder. Imagine if the average is 13.5 and one cylinder (#7) is 14.0 under that boost / power level!! Too bad the dyno sheet doesn't have fuel flow or BSFC's listed. A lot of engine shops rely on the fuel being consumed more than the O2's to get the motor dialed in.

Im with ya Craig. Thats why i was saying 13.8 AFR on that one bank at full pull, is living on the edge in my opinion! IDK why they dont use BSFC numbers there. I know they look at EGT's as being a tuning tool. If the EGT's are good, then the tune should be good. Im not sure if I totally agree with that?

Meaning you can be borderline lean AFR, put some additional timing in it, and the EGT's come down. Or, be on the fat side, but not enough timing, and EGT's will show high.

I am trying to learn new things everyday. My feeble mind tells me get the fuel right first, then add or remove timing to get EGT's to a safe level. However, thats what my brain tells me, and may not be what actually works.

I actually was on the phone tonight with a buddy from Grand Rapids. He had some 460CI N/A engines in his Formula. The first shop dynoed the engine, doing some full pulls. The egt's and fuel numbers looked fine under full throttle load on the dyno. However, once he put them in the boat, it had a awful lean spot while cruising, that ended up burning some pistons and tuliping almost all the valves. Thats no good! This time around they rebuilt the engines, and put it on the dyno again, and did some cruising simulation, they found the lean spot, fixed it, and all good now. Kinda like those sled engines, Burning down while cruising at 55mph! This is why I think im gonna add 02 sensors in my tailpipes this year. I can then monitor whats going on at cruise, and wot.

[CruiserJohn]

Sounds like Dan is ready to become Cruiser Dan! lol

[ICDEDPPL]

Give me a few more years then I`ll want some twin Diesels:sifone:
Cummins 450`s get like 28gal per hour.:)

[ICDEDPPL]

This is why I think im gonna add 02 sensors in my tailpipes this year. I can then monitor whats going on at cruise, and wot.

Funny you mention that I was just a soldering fool tonight extending the harnesses for my AFR gauges. Had em in last year mounted for passengers to see but what good does that do. They gonna be in the dash now.. You know I gotz to I gotta keep an eye on those big beast motors biotch! lol
If I recall I was at 11.7 at idle to 13.0 at wot

I have pictures.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/DanBaloun/Boat/bfe4e383.jpg

[MILD THUNDER]

Cool Dan!! I thought about adding those to my dash too. Only I heard that moisture kills the sensors fast. I'd like to look into this. I think having them on the dash would be great!

[Ratickle]

Where do you pick up the A/G for those?


And when you say moisture, in the fuel because of ethanol? Or when it is sitting?

[MILD THUNDER]

I just remember hearing that any moisture contaminates the O2 senser itself. Maybe from condensation, reversion, etc. My exhaust is totally dry, so I think i'd be fine to run them. The cool thing about them, is say you plug up a needle and seat on a carb setup. A fuel PSI gauge would still show good fuel psi, but the engine is actually going lean. Having the 02, is really nice!