I can't believe what I'm watching

[LotoSteve]

Our "representatives" in Washington are about to defy the will of the people and vote for Obama Care which will push us deeper into debt and closer to a socialist country even though 36 States have filed or are working on filing lawsuits to stop DC from making this law. Anyone who votes for this bill should be tried for breaking their oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

[Trim'd Up]

I didn't expect any less. "WE" don't have many, if any, representatives in DC. I get more disgusted every day. Where do we go from here? Our forefathers had it easy relative to the present day IMO. There is no "new world" where you can escape tyrannical governments anymore, you just have bad or worse.

[phragle]

Our forefathers also stood on much more equal footing with regards to rebellion and overthrow. The average citizens group does not have close to the firepower or technology that the government does. Therefor the govt has no fear of us. So much for my beliefe in what at least part of the intent of the 2nd amendment was about.

[BUIZILLA]

vote em all out this November

drain the Pelosi Swamp

[LotoSteve]

There is no doubt we need reform but this pos bill will only increase the problems just like every other entitlement program.

I would bet lawsuits or the fear of lawsuits are the leading cause for high medical cost, yet this bill does nothing to address it.

[BillR]

Been working on boat all day - do they have enough votes to pass it???\

I hope and pray they won't get them, but with all the bribes - I'm sure they will. Fvckers!

[BillR]

I would bet lawsuits or the fear of lawsuits are the leading cause for high medical cost, yet this bill does nothing to address it.

Of course not! That would be the first logical step!:USA:

[LotoSteve]

It looks like they have more then enough.

[LotoSteve]

vote em all out this November

drain the Pelosi Swamp

I have never gotten directly involved with any campaign or political issue in the past but I intend to now. The only chance we have to stop these socialist is for the average citizens to get involved once and for all.

[BUIZILLA]

a lot of the idiots voting for this have already announced they won't run again..

[phragle]

a lot of the idiots voting for this have already announced they won't run again..

Why do they need too?? with back room pyouts and the promise of cushy high payng jobs, they don't need too.....

[RedDog382]

How long do you think it will be before that almighty one stiffs Bart Stupack and the other 5 democratic hold-outs on the "executive order" to not allow public funds to pay for abortions ...?

Stupack is more like Stupid to give in on this one!

[Tony]

drain the Pelosi Swamp



Can I stomp on the her face with my favorite ice climbing boots as the wrikled old cu%t swirls down the drain?:USA:

[Tommy Gun]

Since I have less than 50 employees and I think exempt from the requirment to provide health care benefits I have a mind to terminate their coverage when this passes and if they complain tell them to call their favorite Democrat because this is the BS they voted for. All I know is that my taxes are going up and I have to find some way to pay for it.

[Ratickle]

Somebody better file a lawsuit about constitutional legality. It's no way legal to pass a bill implemented by the Senate. Or to pass a bill that has not been voted on and passed by both houses of Congress. This is absolute BS....:cuss::mad::smash::mad::cuss:

[Trim'd Up]

What's the Constitution? Do we have one of those?

[BUIZILLA]

the bulk of this monstrosity and illegal posturing will hit in 2014... I predict it will be repealled in 2013..

[phragle]

I predict that if our founding fathers were alive to see this, there would be bloodshed.

[jayboat]

I predict that if our founding fathers were alive to see this, there would be bloodshed.

Wonder how they would feel about bu$hco's little Iraqi adventure. :smash:

[Tommy Gun]

Wonder how they would feel about bu$hco's little Iraqi adventure. :smash:

29 Democratic Senators and 82 Democratic Representatives voted in favor of the Iraq resolution...that's far more support than the healthcare bill will receive. The Democrats are lying their sorry azzes off to get this bill past...its disgusting.

[LotoSteve]

How long do you think it will be before that almighty one stiffs Bart Stupack and the other 5 democratic hold-outs on the "executive order" to not allow public funds to pay for abortions ...?

Stupack is more like Stupid to give in on this one!

The lying Communist gave them what they needed to save face with their constituents for now and I doubt any of them have a backbone to really care what happens down the road. A guest on FOX earlier today said the executive order cannot supercede what the Congress passes so get ready for your tax dollars to fund abortion. :mad:

[LotoSteve]

Since I have less than 50 employees and I think exempt from the requirment to provide health care benefits I have a mind to terminate their coverage when this passes and if they complain tell them to call their favorite Democrat because this is the BS they voted for. All I know is that my taxes are going up and I have to find some way to pay for it.

You are just one of thousands of business owners that will come to the same conclusion and its probably by design. Eventually they will get what they wanted all along. A single government run system. Just think of how many thousands of SEIU jobs that will create. Making a Doctor appointment will be akin to a trip to the DMV only slower.

[Chris]

The upside-


Obama got a trillion-dollar giveaway out of Congress and many months later they still have been unable to disperse the money. Hopefully they'll be this ineffectual in rolling their healthcare package out. Remember "Cash for Clunkers"? These same people are going to attempt to take over 1/6th of our economy. They couldn't pass out a billion on rebates without a meltdown.

The net of this is their own ineptitude, coupled with some court challenges just may slow this down enough that we can get a fresh batch in office and repeal this nonsense.

I almost feel sorry for the Dem candidates at Midterms. Almost.

[jayboat]

29 Democratic Senators and 82 Democratic Representatives voted in favor of the Iraq resolution...that's far more support than the healthcare bill will receive. The Democrats are lying their sorry azzes off to get this bill past...its disgusting.

Yep, there was no lying at all in the runup to the invasion- surely that's why all those folks voted the way they did. :ack2:

No where near as bad, right? Remind me again why 5,000 Americans are now dead.

[phragle]

If the same govt that believes in $1500 toilet seats, bridges to no whereand back room dealings gets put in charge of healthcare, a few more than 5000 are likely to die....

[fund razor]

Stop thinking foreign war Jay. Start thinking civil.

[jayboat]

yeah, riiiight. :ack2:

[BUIZILLA]

Stop thinking foreign war Jay. Start thinking civil. he can't... he's stuck in the past... :smash:

[LotoSteve]

40% will be paying 100% of the cost of this program. At some point people will say enough is enough. I think we're close to that now.

[BUIZILLA]

40% will be paying 100% of the cost of this program. At some point people will say enough is enough. I think we're close to that now. funny you say that, I saw a recent statistic where 41% of US citizens possessing a SS card were working, and 59% weren't...

[jayboat]

he can't... he's stuck in the past... :smash:

In case you haven't noticed, we're still over there- 7 years later.

[Donskihp]

It seems everyone is supprised about the turn of politics since Obama was elected. It seemed obvious to me we were going into the crapper with this last election.

[Ted]

In case you haven't noticed, we're still over there- 7 years later.


Yup, another broken campaign promise on the part of your President.

[catastrophe]

29 Democratic Senators and 82 Democratic Representatives voted in favor of the Iraq resolution...that's far more support than the healthcare bill will receive. The Democrats are lying their sorry azzes off to get this bill past...its disgusting.

They voted that way because they believed the garbage info that was given them about conditions there.

The one thing I dont get is the unnatural resistence to being somewhat socialistic.
The USA is the first country to reach out and help others that are in need or are the first nation to go to the aid of others that need military support.
So I dont get the negative attitude for helping your own countrymen that cannot help themselves.

One thing I see that is a positive in all this, is that Joe Public is much more aware and participating in the process of running your country.
That alone will change things in the future.

The part that is enjoyable is the fact this very devisive topic can be discussed on SOS with civility and respect as opposed to the way it cant be discussed on other sites because of the lack of law and order....and mutual respect.

[LaughingCat]

Everyone is so focused on fighting the little battle arguments (cost of plan provisions, Barney Frank is a ***got, Obama is a N----r, Nazi's takig over, Constitutionality), we didn't notice the Dems using a bigger strategy to push this through and completely undermine the Republicans chances in November. People will see the main points, not the cost. People will see no cancelation, insurance pools, no pre-existing conditions.

On the campaign trail, you really think Republicans can fight to put the donut hole back in medicare prescriptions costs, drop coverage for people in their 20s on their parent's plan, reinstall pre-existing conditions, reinstall insurance companiies ability to drop you when you get sick. Let's be realistic. We may not like what the bill has or costs, but it's a political masterpiece for Democratic political longevity. It encopasses alot of Reagan's and Newt's ideas.

If David Frum (he was W.'s economic speech writer) still have any credibility in this crowd, everyone should be much more worried about the future and stop thinking the country will vote R's back into majority power in both the House and Senate.

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

[Ted]

They voted that way because they believed the garbage info that was given them about conditions there.

The one thing I dont get is the unnatural resistance to being somewhat socialistic.
The USA is the first country to reach out and help others that are in need or are the first nation to go to the aid of others that need military support.
So I dont get the negative attitude for helping your own countrymen that cannot help themselves.



We have a perfect example of socialist medicine to our north and we don't want it. I mean if your own politicos have to come here for medical care, what does that say? And frankly we have very few, if any, people dying in the streets because of our system, heck, even the woman that Obama tried to use as an example turns out to be eligible for assistance and is not going to lose her home or go without treatment.

[jayboat]

Yup, another broken campaign promise on the part of your President.

Bullsh!t. So your guy lies us into a war and you try and make a negative point about the fact we haven't left yet? :ack2:

stupid chit, Ted, and you know it- the schedule for the withdrawal is common knowledge.

Your disingenuous crap gets old.

[jayboat]

Everyone is so focused on fighting the little battle arguments (cost of plan provisions, Barney Frank is a ***got, Obama is a N----r, Nazi's takig over, Constitutionality), we didn't notice the Dems using a bigger strategy to push this through and completely undermine the Republicans chances in November. People will see the main points, not the cost. People will see no cancelation, insurance pools, no pre-existing conditions.

On the campaign trail, you really think Republicans can fight to put the donut hole back in medicare prescriptions costs, drop coverage for people in their 20s on their parent's plan, reinstall pre-existing conditions, reinstall insurance companiies ability to drop you when you get sick. Let's be realistic. We may not like what the bill has or costs, but it's a political masterpiece for Democratic political longevity. It encopasses alot of Reagan's and Newt's ideas.

If David Frum (he was W.'s economic speech writer) still have any credibility in this crowd, everyone should be much more worried about the future and stop thinking the country will vote R's back into majority power in both the House and Senate.

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

They won't listen. They're too busy with their fingers in their ears, shouting "NO!"

Frum nailed it. The repubs are gonna be in the wasteland for a long, long time.

[LaughingCat]

I thik the much bigger picture going n is not necessarily about the components of this bill, the education bill, jobs bill or anything else. It's about getting, maintaining and extending power. I don't like seeing one party get too much power. We saw how too much power corrupted the Conservatives, now we will see what happens with teh Democrats. Glad I grew my nails out so I could start biting them.

[BUIZILLA]

the schedule for the withdrawal is common knowledge. why don't you post Oby's ORIGINAL CAMPAIGN SCHEDULE for us there JayBaby...

then we'll all see the current schedule and see who's the BS artist

come on Jay... find them BOTH and post em

I dare ya

[phragle]

Bullsh!t. So your guy lies us into a war and you try and make a negative point about the fact we haven't left yet? :ack2:

stupid chit, Ted, and you know it- the schedule for the withdrawal is common knowledge.

Your disingenuous crap gets old.

Civility........ take it easy Jay. These are issues we are all passionate about and we all have our own ideas and opinions. Those ideas and opinions are what we are discussing.

[Ted]

Bullsh!t. So your guy lies us into a war and you try and make a negative point about the fact we haven't left yet? :ack2:

stupid chit, Ted, and you know it- the schedule for the withdrawal is common knowledge.

Your disingenuous crap gets old.

Damn I do know how to strike a nerve huh Jay? You backed a liar and a big fake, with no experience and nothing but a bunch of questionable thugs around him. Deal with it, Frum is wrong, and the sheeple are a wee bit pi$$ed right now. Skanky Nan can play all the tricks she wants, her reign is drawing to a close. The wasteland awaits...

[catastrophe]

We have a perfect example of socialist medicine to our north and we don't want it. I mean if your own politicos have to come here for medical care, what does that say? And frankly we have very few, if any, people dying in the streets because of our system, heck, even the woman that Obama tried to use as an example turns out to be eligible for assistance and is not going to lose her home or go without treatment.

Cuda would enjoy it about now.:bump:

And dont get the law mixed up with the structure of delivering the product.

[LaughingCat]

Damn I do know how to strike a nerve huh Jay? You backed a liar and a big fake, with no experience and nothing but a bunch of questionable thugs around him. Deal with it, Frum is wrong, and the sheeple are a wee bit pi$$ed right now. Skanky Nan can play all the tricks she wants, her reign is drawing to a close. The wasteland awaits...


Hi Ted,

You may be totally correct. That's what we have elections for. Dems have squandered momentum before, they can do it again. It's a long time until November. They better hope the public digests this well and the economy turns around AND jobs are created.

[LaughingCat]

Cuda would enjoy it about now.:bump:


This night, he would be so worked up, he'd eat everyone in the room, Democrats, Republicans, pages and porters. He'd be Demolition Man.

[03darkshadow]

Everyone is so focused on fighting the little battle arguments (cost of plan provisions, Barney Frank is a ***got, Obama is a N----r, Nazi's takig over, Constitutionality), we didn't notice the Dems using a bigger strategy to push this through and completely undermine the Republicans chances in November. People will see the main points, not the cost. People will see no cancelation, insurance pools, no pre-existing conditions.

On the campaign trail, you really think Republicans can fight to put the donut hole back in medicare prescriptions costs, drop coverage for people in their 20s on their parent's plan, reinstall pre-existing conditions, reinstall insurance companiies ability to drop you when you get sick. Let's be realistic. We may not like what the bill has or costs, but it's a political masterpiece for Democratic political longevity. It encopasses alot of Reagan's and Newt's ideas.

If David Frum (he was W.'s economic speech writer) still have any credibility in this crowd, everyone should be much more worried about the future and stop thinking the country will vote R's back into majority power in both the House and Senate.

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

940 billion over 10 years where are we going to get that??



there are positives to this bill, the way our health care is now does need changed. but it shouldn't be on our shoulders to pay for people who are unwilling to work and think they're entitled to things. the ridiculous lawsuits causing doctors insurance to go up needs to change. actually our whole judicial system needs an overhaul but thats for another day. and as for people getting dropped when they get sick, that shouldn't happen, you pay in and all of a sudden you get sick, thats not necessarily your fault.

[LotoSteve]

Yep, there was no lying at all in the runup to the invasion- surely that's why all those folks voted the way they did. :ack2:

No where near as bad, right? Remind me again why 5,000 Americans are now dead.

Stop the hijacking please. Start your own thread if you want to talk about the war.

[BUIZILLA]

Hi Ted,

You may be totally correct. That's what we have elections for. Dems have squandered momentum before, they can do it again. It's a long time until November. They better hope the public digests this well and the economy turns around AND jobs are created. word..

[Ted]

why don't you post Oby's ORIGINAL CAMPAIGN SCHEDULE for us there JayBaby...

then we'll all see the current schedule and see who's the BS artist

come on Jay... find them BOTH and post em

I dare ya


Wait, let me!


Obama Outlines His Troop Pullout Plan
The Associated Press | September 12, 2007

By MIKE GLOVER

CLINTON, Iowa -- Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is calling for the immediate withdrawal of all U.S. combat brigades from Iraq, with the pullout being completed by the end of next year.

"Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was," Obama was expected to say in a speech Wednesday at Ashford University.

"The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year _ now," the Illinois senator was to say.

Obama's ardent opposition to the war has been a central theme of his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination, and he has used it to distinguish himself from leading rival Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y. She voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq; Obama was not yet a senator.

Obama was trying to further sharpen that distinction Wednesday, spelling out his views on what the U.S. should do next.

He introduced legislation last January calling for withdrawal to start on May 1 and for all combat brigades to be pulled out by March 31, 2008.





CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. — President Barack Obama announced Friday that he'll withdraw U.S. combat troops from Iraq by Aug. 31, 2010, but his plan to leave as many as 50,000 U.S. troops there through 2011 made many Democrats in Congress angry, while Republicans cheered.

It was an ironic reception for a new commander-in-chief whose presidential campaign was built initially on his early opposition to the Iraq war and his promise to end it if elected.

Obama traveled to Camp Lejeune to announce his Iraq policy — which had leaked several days earlier — to a gym full of 2,700 Marines in camouflage uniforms. Some 8,000 Marines at the base near Jacksonville, N.C., will ship out this spring to Afghanistan, where Obama is escalating the U.S. presence.

[LaughingCat]

Hi Shadow,

I'm really no expert on this bill. BUt the non-partisan CBO scored it a reduction of debt over 10 years of $1.2 trillion. So if the bill spends $940 billion over 10 years, then without it, the current health care format spends $2.14 trillion.

[LotoSteve]

They voted that way because they believed the garbage info that was given them about conditions there.

The one thing I dont get is the unnatural resistence to being somewhat socialistic.
The USA is the first country to reach out and help others that are in need or are the first nation to go to the aid of others that need military support.
So I dont get the negative attitude for helping your own countrymen that cannot help themselves.
One thing I see that is a positive in all this, is that Joe Public is much more aware and participating in the process of running your country.
That alone will change things in the future.

The part that is enjoyable is the fact this very devisive topic can be discussed on SOS with civility and respect as opposed to the way it cant be discussed on other sites because of the lack of law and order....and mutual respect.

The USA is the most generous nation on the planet when it comes to helping those that truly cannot help themselves. However the people born in this country have no excuse for not being able to help themselves. Compared to lots of other country's, the USA is the Garden of Eden when it comes to opportunity. Frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing about all the poor in this country. Most are just lazy.

[03darkshadow]

the way our health care is now, we would spend more then with the bill? im lost, sorry.



btw, is anyone watching whats going on? the one guy asked the chair to let people stand up and make public their vote. he doesn't want that to happen

[catastrophe]

The USA is the most generous nation on the planet when it comes to helping those that truly cannot help themselves. However the people born in this country have no excuse for not being able to help themselves. Compared to lots of other country's, the USA is the Garden of Eden when it comes to opportunity. Frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing about all the poor in this country. Most are just lazy.



"Frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing about all the poor in this country. Most are just lazy."

Nice

[RedDog382]

People will see the main points, not the cost. People will see no cancelation, insurance pools, no pre-existing conditions.


The cost of this will be unsustainable. If you think the costs of insurance premiums are skyrocketing now, just wait until this goes into effect. When the insurance companies are on the verge of collapse, then the govenrment (by design) will HAVE to take them over. Then we will ALL be fucxed ...

[LotoSteve]

"Frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing about all the poor in this country. Most are just lazy."

Nice

Explain to me why they are poor. Could it be they chose to drop out of school or they chose to use drugs or they chose to to buy $200 basketball shoes instead of buying groceries. If someone really wants to succeed in this country there are tons of opportunities for them to take advantage of. More so if they are a minority.

Of course there are people born with disabilities whether it be physical or mental that have special needs and deserve help. I have no problem giving them whatever they need to live comfortably but I have no sympathy for people who expect the rest of us to pay their way.

[Donskihp]

Well said LotoSteve!

[Tommy Gun]

bullsh!t. So your guy lies us into a war and you try and make a negative point about the fact we haven't left yet? :ack2:

Stupid chit, ted, and you know it- the schedule for the withdrawal is common knowledge.

Your disingenuous crap gets old.

3000 dead from the WTC attack is no lie. Nor was the repeated games and UN sanction defiance by Hussien.

Regardless it doesn't have much to do with the subject bill. Because you say Bush lied it justifies the BS lies, corruption and arrogance of the Obama administration? There certainley is no question about whether or not that is true. This bill pushes this country closer to insolvency; Medicare and Social Security are in trouble and they choose to ignore that for this. Insanity.

[RedDog382]

Hi Shadow,

I'm really no expert on this bill. BUt the non-partisan CBO scored it a reduction of debt over 10 years of $1.2 trillion. So if the bill spends $940 billion over 10 years, then without it, the current health care format spends $2.14 trillion.

Not counting "the doctor fix". The federal government already pays only about 18% of billing to physicians, and they intend to cut that even more. The private insurance companies started doing the same thing when they saw what the government was getting away with.

I can't walk into a hardware store, pick up a $100 item, toss $18 on the counter and walk out. Good luck finding a good doc to save your backside in the years to come!

What a lot of people don't realize is the we (the ER docs) already take care of A LOT of people for FREE without ANY reimbursement now because the government says we have to.

[03darkshadow]

3000 dead from the wtc attack is no lie.




funny you mention that, a guy i work with is all into this infowars.com thing. and basically they believe that the gov't did 9-11.






and back to the health bill, how come they didnt say "my name is ____ i vote yes (or no) to this bill." the one republican wanted that. but i guess now its pretty obvious who voted for who. im not happy my taxes are going up.

[LaughingCat]

Tommy,

You are right. That is no lie. But it was Saudi Arabia that hit us, not Saddam. Completely documented and proven. Bringing up 9/11 as justification for the IRaq war is just like using Pearl Harbor to justify invading Mexico. 9/11 was a terrible tragedy and we squandered the entire global goodwill we immediately inherited becasue we invaded the wrong country.

Sorry for the temporary hi-jack.

[LaughingCat]

Electronic vote is connected to teh person's name. It is electronically tabulated and recorded in efficient time.

[03darkshadow]

Not counting "the doctor fix". The federal government already pays only about 18% of billing to physicians, and they intend to cut that even more. The private insurance companies started doing the same thing when they saw what the government was getting away with.

I can't walk into a hardware store, pick up a $100 item, toss $18 on the counter and walk out. Good luck finding a good doc to save your backside in the years to come!

What a lot of people don't realize is the we (the ER docs) already take care of A LOT of people for FREE without ANY reimbursement now because the government says we have to.



does this bill help with people being able to sue dr's like crazy?

[catastrophe]

Explain to me why they are poor. Could it be they chose to drop out of school or they chose to use drugs or they chose to to buy $200 basketball shoes instead of buying groceries. If someone really wants to succeed in this country there are tons of opportunities for them to take advantage of. More so if they are a minority.

Of course there are people born with disabilities whether it be physical or mental that have special needs and deserve help. I have no problem giving them whatever they need to live comfortably but I have no sympathy for people who expect the rest of us to pay their way.

You are a typical extremist full of BS stereotyping.

Maybe they are one of the following.

Someone that used to build cars whose job was sent to Mexico
Someone that used to be in the massive shipbuilding industry in the USA which other than military is non existent.
Someone in the once huge carpet industry that left your country.

Or in any manufacturing industry that is now exampled by the shiploads of goods that come from China to Walmart.
And most recently the thousands of people in the automanufacturing and homebuilding sector.

There are hundreds of reasons why some folks cant afford proper healthcare.

And out of a hundred reasons...typically about 6 of the reasons involve laziness.

[RedDog382]

does this bill help with people being able to sue dr's like crazy?

Not at all. Not one of the attorney/Democrat Senators or Representatives has wanted or been willing to look at the issue of malpractice reform.

Don't get me wrong ... malpractice does exist. My own mother and stepfather both died of blatant malpractice. But the CEO of this health insurance plan/hospital chain responsible for their deaths made in excess of $22 million in salary and bonuses during 2007/2008. This is the guy they need to go after!

[LotoSteve]

You are a typical extremist full of BS stereotyping.

Maybe they are one of the following.

Someone that used to build cars whose job was sent to Mexico
Someone that used to be in the massive shipbuilding industry in the USA which other than military is non existent.
Someone in the once huge carpet industry that left your country.

Or in any manufacturing industry that is now exampled by the shiploads of goods that come from China to Walmart.
And most recently the thousands of people in the automanufacturing and homebuilding sector.

There are hundreds of reasons why some folks cant afford proper healthcare.

And out of a hundred reasons...typically about 6 of the reasons involve laziness.

And then starts the name calling. :rolleyes:

Is there some reason those people cannot change careers?

You can buy catastrophic health insurance for less then $200/month so don't tell me people cannot afford it while they are changing jobs. I know, I paid it while I was between jobs.

[catastrophe]

Not at all. Not one of the attorney/Democrat Senators or Representatives has wanted or been willing to look at the issue of malpractice reform.

Don't get me wrong ... malpractice does exist. My own mother and stepfather both died of blatant malpractice. But the CEO of this health insurance plan/hospital chain responsible for their deaths made in excess of $22 million in salary and bonuses during 2007/2008. This is the guy they need to go after!

Correct

[RedDog382]

does this bill help with people being able to sue dr's like crazy?

The chosen one's education ...?

Law school/Attorney.

The chosen one's wife's education ...?

Law school/Attorney.

She made a lot more as an attorney working for a prominent hospital in Chicago than most ER physicians make.

Why would they call for malpractice reform and put most of their colleagues out of business?

[LaughingCat]

You can buy catastrophic health insurance for less then $200/month so don't tell me people cannot afford it while they are changing jobs. I know, I paid it while I was between jobs.


Assuming, of course, you have no pre-existing conditions.

[Expensive Date]

Market not real happy and China down almost 2%. http://www.cnbc.com/id/17689937

[LotoSteve]

Assuming, of course, you have no pre-existing conditions.

I'm not so sure about that. I have had Ulcerative Colitis since I was 28 and it was never brought up when I bought insurance. However, if your right that is certainly something that needs to be correctly by Congress.

[Tommy Gun]

The chosen one's education ...?

Law school/Attorney.

The chosen one's wife's education ...?

Law school/Attorney.

She made a lot more as an attorney working for a prominent hospital in Chicago than most ER physicians make.

Why would they call for malpractice reform and put most of their colleagues out of business?

EXACTLY..WHY WOULD THEY BOTHER WITH SOMETHING THAT MAKES SENSE?

The Democrat Party has become the Lawyers’ Party.

Barack Obama is a lawyer.

Michelle Obama is a lawyer.

Hillary Clinton is a lawyer.

Bill Clinton is a lawyer.

John Edwards is a lawyer.

Elizabeth Edwards is a lawyer.

Every Democrat nominee since 1984 went to law school (although Gore did not graduate).

Every Democrat vice presidential nominee since 1976, except for Lloyd Bentsen, went to law school.

Look at leaders of the Democrat Party in Congress:

Harry Reid is a lawyer.

Nancy Pelosi is a lawyer.

The Republican Party is different.

President Bush is a businessman..

Vice President Cheney is a businessman.

The leaders of the Republican Revolution:

Newt Gingrich was a history professor.

Tom Delay was an exterminator. Dick Armey was an economist.

House Minority Leader Boehner was a plastic manufacturer.

The former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist is a heart surgeon.

Who was the last Republican president who was a lawyer? Gerald Ford, who left office 31 years ago and who barely won the Republican nomination as a sitting president, running against Ronald Reagan in 1976. The Republican Party is made up of real people doing real work, who are often the targets of lawyers.

The Democrat Party is made up of lawyers. Democrats mock and scorn men who create wealth, like Bush and Cheney, or who heal the sick, like Frist, or who immerse themselves in history, like Gingrich.

The Lawyers’ Party sees these sorts of people, who provide goods and services that people want, as the enemies of America. And, so we have seen the procession of official enemies, in the eyes of the Lawyers’ Party, grow.

Against whom do Hillary and Obama rail? Pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, hospitals, manufacturers, fast food restaurant chains, large retail businesses, bankers, and anyone producing anything of value in our nation.

This is the natural consequence of viewing everything through the eyes of lawyers. Lawyers solve problems by successfully representing their clients, in this case the American people. Lawyers seek to have new laws passed, they seek to win lawsuits, they press appellate courts to overturn precedent, and lawyers always parse language to favor their side.

Confined to the narrow practice of law, that is fine. But it is an awful way to govern a great nation. When politicians as lawyers begin to view some Americans as clients and other Americans as opposing parties, then the role of the legal system in our life becomes all-consuming. Some Americans become “adverse parties” of our very government. We are not all litigants in some vast social class-action suit. We are citizens of a republic that promises us a great deal of freedom from laws, from courts, and from lawyers.

Today, we are drowning in laws; we are contorted by judicial decisions; we are driven to distraction by omnipresent lawyers in all parts of our once private lives. America has a place for laws and lawyers, but that place is modest and reasonable, not vast and unchecked. When the most important decision for our next president is whom he will appoint to the Supreme Court, the role of lawyers and the law in America is too big. When lawyers use criminal prosecution as a continuation of politics by other means, as happened in the lynching of Scooter Libby and Tom Delay, then the power of lawyers in America is too great. When House Democrats sue America in order to hamstring our efforts to learn what our enemies are planning to do to us, then the role of litigation in America has become crushing.

We cannot expect the Lawyers’ Party to provide real change, real reform or real hope in America Most Americans know that a republic in which every major government action must be blessed by nine unelected judges is not what Washington intended in 1789. Most Americans grasp that we cannot fight a war when ACLU lawsuits snap at the heels of our defenders. Most Americans intuit that more lawyers and judges will not restore declining moral values or spark the spirit of enterprise in our economy..

Perhaps Americans will understand that change cannot be brought to our nation by those lawyers who already largely dictate American society and business. Perhaps Americans will see that hope does not come from the mouths of lawyers but from personal dreams nourished by hard work. Perhaps Americans will embrace the truth that more lawyers with more power will only make our problems worse.

The United States has 5% of the world’s population and 66% of the world’s lawyers! Tort (Legal) reform legislation has been introduced in Congress several times in the last several years to limit punitive damages in ridiculous lawsuits such as “spilling hot coffee on yourself and suing the establishment that sold it to you” and also to limit punitive damages in huge medical malpractice lawsuits. This legislation has continually been blocked from even being voted on by the Democrat Party. When you see that 97% of the political contributions from the American Trial Lawyers Association goes to the Democrat Party, then you realize who is responsible for our medical and product costs being so high!

[LaughingCat]

EXACTLY..WHY WOULD THEY BOTHER WITH SOMETHING THAT MAKES SENSE?

The Democrat Party has become the Lawyers’ Party.

Barack Obama is a lawyer.

Michelle Obama is a lawyer.

Hillary Clinton is a lawyer.

Bill Clinton is a lawyer.

John Edwards is a lawyer.

Elizabeth Edwards is a lawyer.

Every Democrat nominee since 1984 went to law school (although Gore did not graduate).

Every Democrat vice presidential nominee since 1976, except for Lloyd Bentsen, went to law school.

Look at leaders of the Democrat Party in Congress:

Harry Reid is a lawyer.

Nancy Pelosi is a lawyer.

The Republican Party is different.

President Bush is a businessman..

Vice President Cheney is a businessman.

The leaders of the Republican Revolution:

Newt Gingrich was a history professor.

Tom Delay was an exterminator. Dick Armey was an economist.

House Minority Leader Boehner was a plastic manufacturer.

The former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist is a heart surgeon.

Who was the last Republican president who was a lawyer? Gerald Ford, who left office 31 years ago and who barely won the Republican nomination as a sitting president, running against Ronald Reagan in 1976. The Republican Party is made up of real people doing real work, who are often the targets of lawyers.

The Democrat Party is made up of lawyers. Democrats mock and scorn men who create wealth, like Bush and Cheney, or who heal the sick, like Frist, or who immerse themselves in history, like Gingrich.

The Lawyers’ Party sees these sorts of people, who provide goods and services that people want, as the enemies of America. And, so we have seen the procession of official enemies, in the eyes of the Lawyers’ Party, grow.

Against whom do Hillary and Obama rail? Pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, hospitals, manufacturers, fast food restaurant chains, large retail businesses, bankers, and anyone producing anything of value in our nation.

This is the natural consequence of viewing everything through the eyes of lawyers. Lawyers solve problems by successfully representing their clients, in this case the American people. Lawyers seek to have new laws passed, they seek to win lawsuits, they press appellate courts to overturn precedent, and lawyers always parse language to favor their side.

Confined to the narrow practice of law, that is fine. But it is an awful way to govern a great nation. When politicians as lawyers begin to view some Americans as clients and other Americans as opposing parties, then the role of the legal system in our life becomes all-consuming. Some Americans become “adverse parties” of our very government. We are not all litigants in some vast social class-action suit. We are citizens of a republic that promises us a great deal of freedom from laws, from courts, and from lawyers.

Today, we are drowning in laws; we are contorted by judicial decisions; we are driven to distraction by omnipresent lawyers in all parts of our once private lives. America has a place for laws and lawyers, but that place is modest and reasonable, not vast and unchecked. When the most important decision for our next president is whom he will appoint to the Supreme Court, the role of lawyers and the law in America is too big. When lawyers use criminal prosecution as a continuation of politics by other means, as happened in the lynching of Scooter Libby and Tom Delay, then the power of lawyers in America is too great. When House Democrats sue America in order to hamstring our efforts to learn what our enemies are planning to do to us, then the role of litigation in America has become crushing.

We cannot expect the Lawyers’ Party to provide real change, real reform or real hope in America Most Americans know that a republic in which every major government action must be blessed by nine unelected judges is not what Washington intended in 1789. Most Americans grasp that we cannot fight a war when ACLU lawsuits snap at the heels of our defenders. Most Americans intuit that more lawyers and judges will not restore declining moral values or spark the spirit of enterprise in our economy..

Perhaps Americans will understand that change cannot be brought to our nation by those lawyers who already largely dictate American society and business. Perhaps Americans will see that hope does not come from the mouths of lawyers but from personal dreams nourished by hard work. Perhaps Americans will embrace the truth that more lawyers with more power will only make our problems worse.

The United States has 5% of the world’s population and 66% of the world’s lawyers! Tort (Legal) reform legislation has been introduced in Congress several times in the last several years to limit punitive damages in ridiculous lawsuits such as “spilling hot coffee on yourself and suing the establishment that sold it to you” and also to limit punitive damages in huge medical malpractice lawsuits. This legislation has continually been blocked from even being voted on by the Democrat Party. When you see that 97% of the political contributions from the American Trial Lawyers Association goes to the Democrat Party, then you realize who is responsible for our medical and product costs being so high!

Wow, you typed all of that yourself?

I'm just playing. Seriously, why would anyone expect they will vote for things Republicans want. They are Democrats and will vote for their interests. No surprise there

[phragle]

"Frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing about all the poor in this country. Most are just lazy."

Nice


I'm not lazy, I am just in the middle of a "restructuring"




You can buy catastrophic health insurance for less then $200/month so don't tell me people cannot afford it while they are changing jobs. I know, I paid it while I was between jobs.

$200 is a LOT of money, when you are making $400~600 a month... with car insurance, food, school supplies, utilities etc..

What would have been nice is say $25~$50 a month health insurance for college students.. The average college student is in good health so the risk vs. cost ratio wouldnt be bad. I do find it ironic that I am in a private nursing school and work in a hospital yet have no access affordable health insurance.

[LotoSteve]

I'm not lazy, I am just in the middle of a "restructuring"



$200 is a LOT of money, when you are making $400~600 a month... with car insurance, food, school supplies, utilities etc..

What would have been nice is say $25~$50 a month health insurance for college students.. The average college student is in good health so the risk vs. cost ratio wouldnt be bad. I do find it ironic that I am in a private nursing school and work in a hospital yet have no access affordable health insurance.

You and catastrophe both know who I'm talking about. The drains on society that have no intentions of ever trying to better themselves or support themselves.

Well said Tommy Gun.

[03darkshadow]

Not at all. Not one of the attorney/Democrat Senators or Representatives has wanted or been willing to look at the issue of malpractice reform.

Don't get me wrong ... malpractice does exist. My own mother and stepfather both died of blatant malpractice. But the CEO of this health insurance plan/hospital chain responsible for their deaths made in excess of $22 million in salary and bonuses during 2007/2008. This is the guy they need to go after!



i know it does exist and those actual cases should be delt with, but the ridiculous lawsuits in general need to stop IMO.

[LotoSteve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU7-G50Xvus&feature=player_embedded

[fund razor]

There are hundreds of reasons why some folks cant afford proper healthcare.

And out of a hundred reasons...typically about 6 of the reasons involve laziness.

Please quote credible source for your statistics so I can go read them. Thanks.

[catastrophe]

You and catastrophe both know who I'm talking about. The drains on society that have no intentions of ever trying to better themselves or support themselves.

Well said Tommy Gun.

Of course I know who you are talking about....the point is you shouldnt be.

There will always be the 5-6% of the populace that cheats or steals or circumvents the rules...on every subject.
My point is you dont stucture your whole health care system just to protect yourself from them to the detriment of others.

Since the inception of retail selling its a known fact there is costs built in to cover shrinkage caused by shoplifting and employee theft...fact of life.

There is a minority of people that mishandle firearms either by using them for criminal activity or selling them to people that shouldnt own them....but you dont ban firearms to everyone.

The banking system has operating costs built in to cover losses from fraud etc. Doesnt mean that since that exists that those that play by the rules shouldnt be allowed to use the banking system.

I think the biggest problem that exists on this whole subject is curing the topics that actually cause inflated operating costs, which include the lawsuits against doctors and the white collar crime of rip offs that are prevelant in all aspects of delivering healthcare.

The bottom feeders are everywhere, and dont misunderstand....I detest them as much as the next guy.

But your country is suffering a phenominon that Canada is suffering.

We are becoming a service economy. While others are making our clothes and ships and cars and TVs and numerous other products we both watch our $30.00 an hour jobs evaporate and get replaced with $ 12.00 an hour retail , MacDonalds, Home Depot, Dunkin Donuts jobs.


If I was to put a spotlight on one topic that effects both our countries for a lot of grief throughout numerous topics ( crime, job losses, social service costs ) its real close.

MEXICO

[fund razor]

I hear that some Canadians bring people to the US if they want to get them health care before they die.

[catastrophe]

I hear that some Canadians bring people to the US if they want to get them health care before they die.

They also bring $$$ supplied by our government.

The advantage the USA has over other countries isnt the day to day care or the quality of your care in total.
It houses the large drug companies and has the use of their funds in clinical trials whereby many diseases are controlled or cured " unofficially".

Stem cell research is one of those topics...thank God.

[catastrophe]

Retailer costs


http://retail.about.com/od/lossprevention/tp/shrink_sources.htm

[fund razor]

They also bring $$$ supplied by our government.

Ok. That would be a key difference. Your government supplies money. Down here, our productive citizens supply the money and our government siezes it and redistributes it at their whim.

[fund razor]

I think that like Japan in 1941, the socialists among the democratic party have awoken the sleeping giant of american capitalism and conservatism. Those with the means to flee will flee, those with the will to stay and fight will stay and fight.

One of the simple steps we need to take is to revoke the voting rights of those who get massive handouts, like welfare. If the government must be their parent... then they should be treated as a child. That will help cut down on people who vote simply for the promise of additional hand outs.

[catastrophe]

Ok. That would be a key difference. Your government supplies money. Down here, our productive citizens supply the money and our government siezes it and redistributes it at their whim.

Like every other country's government does.

In a lot of cases up here it makes me puke just as your current topic is upsetting you.

Our country is about to vote on giving new Canadians access to government old age pensions after 3 years instead of ten years.

Boeing will reap the benefits by building more planes to ship people from India here by 10X current volumes.

I'm glad I'm old . Pity the next generations kids.

FKN cocksuckerfaces , those that are ruining our country.

[fund razor]

I guess I feel about socialists the way that you do about separatists. Imagine you woke up this morning and there was talk (in french) among your lawmakers about funding separatism.

Yeah. See?

[fund razor]

I hope that this stupidity causes a backlash which eliminates nearly all social programs. Handouts cripple those who would have otherwise gotten creative. The concept of needing to be just a little better, earlier, faster, stronger, smarter, or more educated than the next guy to insure your employability is being eroded by the entitlement mindset. We have created a welfare class, and now we own them. The last thing that we need to do is increase the size, scope, and role of our government in the daily needs of the private citizen.

[catastrophe]

I guess I feel about socialists the way that you do about separatists. Imagine you woke up this morning and there was talk (in french) among your lawmakers about funding separatism.

Yeah. See?

NO, I agree and understand your upset. Dont miss that point.

I dont know if everyone really understands your current topic though because it really is huge and complicated.

If people are just disregarding it by blindly following partisan rhetoric , thats no good either.

SOMEBODY must feel its of value....it just passed through your government after umpteen years of trying.

From what I see those that voted for it are probably not going to get re elected....so they must believe in it.

[LotoSteve]

I hope that this stupidity causes a backlash which eliminates nearly all social programs. Handouts cripple those who would have otherwise gotten creative. The concept of needing to be just a little better, earlier, faster, stronger, smarter, or more educated than the next guy to insure your employability is being eroded by the entitlement mindset. We have created a welfare class, and now we own them. The last thing that we need to do is increase the size, scope, and role of our government in the daily needs of the private citizen.

Very well said and I hope your right about the sleeping giant.

[Ted]

NO, I agree and understand your upset. Dont miss that point.

I dont know if everyone really understands your current topic though because it really is huge and complicated.

If people are just disregarding it by blindly following partisan rhetoric , thats no good either.

SOMEBODY must feel its of value....it just passed through your government after umpteen years of trying.

From what I see those that voted for it are probably not going to get re elected....so they must believe in it.


Here is what I think the Dems believe. They KNOW that their party was decimated in the 94 elections after they failed to pass healthcare reform. Once this pig in a poke got started they were caught on a roller coaster. They had proposed it and could not let it drop. They think/know that the only thing that might save a few seats in the next election is a win, no matter how ugly. And the only thing that all of them R's and D's, REALLY believe in is re-election. My hope is that they are wrong and the country will spank them until they bleed, then they can go get some socialized medicine to make them feel better. If I was elected to Congress tomorrow I would only sponsor one bill- that Congress, the Senate, etc. was subject to the exact same health care they just wished on the American people.

[catastrophe]

"eliminates nearly all social programs"

I know John well enough that that comment is not his true feelings.

And Steve, I hear you and dont disagree re your points about the size of government. My frustrations are government waste, not exclusively their involvement in my life.

The topic I detest more is ripoffs by big business and institutions such as the oil industry, banking, mortgage, etc.

Helping those that cant help themselves isnt a bad thing.

And I too hate helping those that refuse to put any effort into helping themselves.
2 different topics though.

[Airpacker]

I guess I feel about socialists the way that you do about separatists. Imagine you woke up this morning and there was talk (in french) among your lawmakers about funding separatism.

Yeah. See?

Too late John, we already do. We send tax money to the Feds and they give it, LOTS of it to Quebec where represive French language laws and forced French education are the norm. We pay huge salaries and bennies to French politicians to sit in our House of Commons. We pay their wages, their health care and their ridiculous pensions. French politicians who want nothing more than to break up our country.

We also pay farmers NOT to farm, fishermen NOT to fish, loggers NOT to log, miners NOT to mine and so on and so on.

Politicians KNOW better how to spend our hard made earnings than we do. At least, thats what they tell us.

Welcome to the "Shut up and pay" club my friends from south of the border.

[fund razor]

SOMEBODY must feel its of value....it just passed through your government after umpteen years of trying.

Yeah, funny how people in the government favor more power over our lives.
They were bribed with what we call "pork barrel" add-ons to the bill. There were many promises made. It's based on a series of back-door deals and several premises that are extremely unlikely. Bad promises and false premises.

It will make it incredibly difficult for those smallish companies (50-200 employees) to survive.

Does that sound like party rhetoric to you?

Let me rephrase my earlier point so that it is understood:
Eliminate nearly every social program. The line between "tribute" and "charity" has been blurred. If you leave some capital in the hands of the private sector, we can call charity what it is. And it can do what it is meant to do. We don't need the government to do what can be done by allowing capitalism to work. We are creating cripples and chasing away those who were born with the ambition gene, because it is of no value here in the system that the socialists desire.

[fund razor]

Helping those that cant help themselves isnt a bad thing.


That is for you and I to do. The government can't do it better than us. Trust me. I know a little about private philanthropy. ;) I can take a dollar and raise 10. Yes, that is a 10:1 ratio on revenue vs expense. Our government can't acheive 1:10.

[Tommy Gun]

I'm glad I'm old . Pity the next generations kids.

FKN cocksuckerfaces , those that are ruining our country.

Now there is something I agree with. This healthcare debate is not about taking care of the poor; it's about free enterprise vs big gov't; its socialism vs democracy; its about democrats lying thier azzes off to jam thru partisan legislation; its about a gross misrepresentation of the cost to the citizens who will have too pay for it; and what is absoluelty will NOT do is control costs...its a joke. I've aked my counterparts repeatedly to explain how costs will be contained or go down without a single reply beyond "Bush lied so we can, or the R's are worse".

And as for those mfg. jobs we no longer have...unions and gov't regulation; now healthcare has been added to that toxic combo. So I agree...I'm glad I'm old . Pity the next generations kids.

FKN cocksuckerfaces , those that are ruining our country.

[LAriverratt]

And I too hate helping those that refuse to put any effort into helping themselves.
2 different topics though.

I think these problems are intertwined...there is always a grey area in government involvement. they widen that grey area every time they do something... a lot of people living below the "poverty" level her in the USA who receive government aid do not pay taxes...the government does not figure in the money/aid/health care/food stamps/state aid...etc, they receive from the taxpayer as income so what is the actual income of these people??? They seem to be comfortable living aty that rate too me...I see it everyday 200 yards from my business entrance and it's sad to watch these people waste away at the expense of hard working people, they just exist and blame the "system" for their problems. I say pull up your boot straps and you can achieve anything!!! that is the American way that was instilled in me!!!

[OldSchool]

Wait for the next move!!!!!! ...and don't think that its not coming in a BIG way.

:rolleyes::cuss::rolleyes::cuss::rolleyes::cuss::rolleyes::cuss::rolleyes:

[jayboat]

why don't you post Oby's ORIGINAL CAMPAIGN SCHEDULE for us there JayBaby...

then we'll all see the current schedule and see who's the BS artist

come on Jay... find them BOTH and post em

I dare ya

Have you ever had to make a course correction while boating because of unforeseen circumstances? Nitpickers. :smash:

Hey, whatever happened to those WMD's?

[OldSchool]

Have you ever had to make a course correction while boating because of unforeseen circumstances? Nitpickers. :smash:

Hey, whatever happened to those WMD's?

Of course, but I don't lie about where I'm going every time I leave the dock either!!!!:sifone::cheers2:

[Tommy Gun]

Have you ever had to make a course correction while boating because of unforeseen circumstances? Nitpickers. :smash:

Hey, whatever happened to those WMD's?

"Bush lied so we Democrats have a free pass to be more arrogant, corrupt and dishonest"

Nice logic.

[Tommy Gun]

And for all those "cost" controls in the healthcare bill; hospital stocks are up at market open with no major downward moves in any of the healthcare stocks.

WHAT A JOKE THAT BILL IS.

[BUIZILLA]

Have you ever had to make a course correction while boating because of unforeseen circumstances? Nitpickers. :smash: to answer your question, yes, I have..

but not because the current POTUS lied to me about HIS charted and stated map being wrong...

[Chris]

"Frankly I'm sick and tired of hearing about all the poor in this country. Most are just lazy."

Nice

I think there's now an SIC code for the guy that stands at the top of the highway exit ramp with the piece of cardboard with "Homeless- Need Work. Will Do Anthing"

Anything except look for a job.

[Tommy Gun]

Sebilius "healthcare costs are unsustainable" well biotch guess what? So is the Federal deficit for all your BS entitlelments.

[catastrophe]

I think there's now an SIC code for the guy that stands at the top of the highway exit ramp with the piece of cardboard with "Homeless- Need Work. Will Do Anthing"

Anything except look for a job.

LOL Good one.:)


But surely no one thinks that the current healthcare changes are aimed at these people.
They dont even vote.

[Trim'd Up]

LOL Good one.:)


But surely no one thinks that the current healthcare changes are aimed at these people.
They dont even vote.

Hell, dead people vote thanks to ACORN. Why would you think homeless people don't?

[Chris]

Obama's election was the first of two fundemantal shifts in American politics. Yesterday's vote was the second.

We're losing the middle class. The days of making a middle-class income without a college degree or specialized training are gone. The only jobs like that left are in government employment.

We've borrowed our way into staggering debt. We have no conceivable way of paying it back. We "borrowed" all the money from Social Security to pay for things politicians wanted to give to their constituents in exchange for constituent's votes. When that ran dry, we started borrwing from the Chinese. Wonder why their market is down today?

I completely understand the desire to "fix" healthcare. And I do believe in helping my fellow man that's unable to help himself. But this healthcare bill is re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Until we (a) fix the economy and (b) come up with a plan to reform health care that truly addresses the actual problems with the system, it's all just window dressing.

[Tommy Gun]

LOL Good one.:)


But surely no one thinks that the current healthcare changes are aimed at these people.
They dont even vote.

Well there is absolutey one group that the healthcare changes weren't aimed at...Congress; the Democratic bastards voted to keep their elite plan.

[DollaBill]

This surprises anyone why????

[fund razor]

Hey, whatever happened to those WMD's?

Somebody looted them like a tv set in a hurricane?

[Chris]

LOL Good one.:)


But surely no one thinks that the current healthcare changes are aimed at these people.
They dont even vote.

My strong belief is that the current healthcare changes are aimed at making our population dependednt upon the government. And, as such, making one party's jobs that much more secure.

I'm a pretty practical guy. That makes me a bit of a cynic. But I'm rarely far off the mark.

This is one of those areas where my cynicism was proven- I'm a bit involved in local politics, so I get to see some of the sausage being made. Some years back I noticed a particularly heated race. Alot of money was flowing to the campaigns of both contestants. The position was Juvenile Court Judge. I'm thinking to myself "Of all the judgeships, that's about the lowest profile. And of all offices, judges are about the lowest profile. So why?" There was an easy answer- of all the county's elected offices, this particular post had the greatest number of employees. One judge oversaw dozens of referees, counselors, court employees and so on. More jobs equals more patronage. More patronage equals an easier job to hang on to.

The sole mission of an elected official is to hang onto their job. Doing good is somewhere down the line. If I'm the politician that you HAVE TO have in order to keep your life in the present, comfortable form that you've grown accustomed to, then it's alot easier to keep my job.

Inevitably, we're going to run out of places to borrow tomorrow's money to pay for things today. We may even be past the point of being able to fix it. And when that point comes, all the socialized medicine and Social Security and government jobs are going to evaporate. There won't be any dollars to give out- or at least the one's we're giving out won't be worth anything.

[RedDog382]

They also bring $$$ supplied by our government.

Sorry Cat, but the Canadians actually save their own money and come to the U.S. paying cash for medical services.

[phragle]

History is littered with ancient failed civilizations. Ultimate failure is the norm. The Myans, the Egyptions, the Roman empire..... Dare we think our little 230 year old experiment is somehow special? Every candle that has burned bright has burnt out.

We will survive, our children are going to have it rough, our grandchildren are phucked.

[jayboat]

Wait, let me!


Obama Outlines His Troop Pullout Plan
The Associated Press | September 12, 2007

By MIKE GLOVER

CLINTON, Iowa -- Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is calling for the immediate withdrawal of all U.S. combat brigades from Iraq, with the pullout being completed by the end of next year.

"Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq and there never was," Obama was expected to say in a speech Wednesday at Ashford University.

"The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year _ now," the Illinois senator was to say.

Obama's ardent opposition to the war has been a central theme of his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination, and he has used it to distinguish himself from leading rival Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y. She voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq; Obama was not yet a senator.

Obama was trying to further sharpen that distinction Wednesday, spelling out his views on what the U.S. should do next.

He introduced legislation last January calling for withdrawal to start on May 1 and for all combat brigades to be pulled out by March 31, 2008.





CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. — President Barack Obama announced Friday that he'll withdraw U.S. combat troops from Iraq by Aug. 31, 2010, but his plan to leave as many as 50,000 U.S. troops there through 2011 made many Democrats in Congress angry, while Republicans cheered.

It was an ironic reception for a new commander-in-chief whose presidential campaign was built initially on his early opposition to the Iraq war and his promise to end it if elected.

Obama traveled to Camp Lejeune to announce his Iraq policy — which had leaked several days earlier — to a gym full of 2,700 Marines in camouflage uniforms. Some 8,000 Marines at the base near Jacksonville, N.C., will ship out this spring to Afghanistan, where Obama is escalating the U.S. presence.

Was he the president in Sept 2007???

Your post- your claim is total BS. Typical - take a non-issue and try to make it into something it is not.

If he had managed to get us out already, you would be screaming that the terrahists had won. :rolleyes:

But it is not surprising - just a typical repub tactic - lots of hand-wringing and predictions of doom. Too bad you don't realize it's the GOP that is going down. Isn't it about time that you started worrying about the important stuff? :smash:

David Frum

If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.
So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

Andrew Sprung

The flip side of Obama's perhaps naive belief that he can win Republicans over is his ability to show them up. Americans are confused about the plan, but they are not confused about the man. By large margins they trust Obama more than they do the Republicans to produce rational solutions to the country's problems. In the past month, he exploited his mastery of policy detail, his pragmatism, his focus on effectively alleviating the suffering he spotlighted, and his willingness to stake his political future on getting this bill passed to the utmost. The full eloquence and passion of the campaign came back to his lips in forum after forum and speech after speech.
To Democratic legislators, his message was that this bill epitomized why they had sought public office and why they were Democrats; it was the raison d'etre for their careers; in effect, passing it was worth their careers (and would make or break his own).

[LotoSteve]

History is littered with ancient failed civilizations. Ultimate failure is the norm. The Myans, the Egyptions, the Roman empire..... Dare we think our little 230 year old experiment is somehow special? Every candle that has burned bright has burnt out.

We will survive, our children are going to have it rough, our grandchildren are phucked.

Wasn't it Caesar that said kill all the lawyers.

[catastrophe]

Wasn't it Caesar that said kill all the lawyers.

:):):):)

[Ted]

I stand by my post, and I will discontinue the debate since it is off-topic and I am not going to argue with other people's ideas, form your own or keep the pundit's to yourself.











Was he the president in Sept 2007???

Your post- your claim is total BS. Typical - take a non-issue and try to make it into something it is not.

If he had managed to get us out already, you would be screaming that the terrahists had won. :rolleyes:

But it is not surprising - just a typical repub tactic - lots of hand-wringing and predictions of doom. Too bad you don't realize it's the GOP that is going down. Isn't it about time that you started worrying about the important stuff? :smash:

David Frum

If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.
So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

Andrew Sprung

The flip side of Obama's perhaps naive belief that he can win Republicans over is his ability to show them up. Americans are confused about the plan, but they are not confused about the man. By large margins they trust Obama more than they do the Republicans to produce rational solutions to the country's problems. In the past month, he exploited his mastery of policy detail, his pragmatism, his focus on effectively alleviating the suffering he spotlighted, and his willingness to stake his political future on getting this bill passed to the utmost. The full eloquence and passion of the campaign came back to his lips in forum after forum and speech after speech.
To Democratic legislators, his message was that this bill epitomized why they had sought public office and why they were Democrats; it was the raison d'etre for their careers; in effect, passing it was worth their careers (and would make or break his own).

[Chris]

Wasn't it Caesar that said kill all the lawyers.



It wasn't Caesar, but someone of equal fame and stature. It was the charachter "Dick the Butcher" in Shakespeare's Henry VI.

The line was framed in a sentiment of disposing of people standing in the way of an anarchist revolution. It wasn't a line written as a positive sentiment.

[phragle]

Of course this is only MY PERSONAL OPINION

http://www.tipb.com/images/stories/2008/07/iphone_no_cut_and_paste.jpg


When discussing issues that matter to you tell me your opinion, explain to me why you think that way, explain to me why you think my logic is flawed. Maybe use a link as a reference, but I believe your posts should stand on their own merit. If one was writing an argument paper and the paper consisted predominatly of someone elses work, it would not get a passing grade, much less make a solid argument. Show me you care enough about a subject to have an opinion, explain to me why you think I should agree with YOU, not some random blogger or whoever.

This is not to be construed as an attack for C&P, this is a plea for honest, open candid discussion. I love mint chocolate chip ice cream, I think it tastes good, it puts a smile on my face when I eat it, it's very refreshing to me on a hot day, I thionk you should try it!! That has much more impact than a cut and paste from the american dairy council.

[Tommy Gun]

Was he the president in Sept 2007???

Your post- your claim is total BS. Typical - take a non-issue and try to make it into something it is not.

So a campaign promise doesn't count? WTF, he proclaimed a bunch of crap and told a bunch of lies to garner votes, but that doesn't count? WTF The fact is he is a liar who did so to gain power and is now attempting to implement a socialist agenda. So this is a non-issue?

I don't think he stated he agreed with Obama's promise to withdraw, only that Obama did in fact make the promise and he provided quotes of said promise. Just one more example of an Obama lie. (or was it a mis-statement?)

[phragle]

The line was framed in a sentiment of disposing of people standing in the way of an anarchist revolution. It wasn't a line written as a positive sentiment.

It may come to a point where an anarchist revolution may seem like a viable option.....

[jayboat]

So a campaign promise doesn't count? WTF, he proclaimed a bunch of crap and told a bunch of lies to garner votes, but that doesn't count? WTF The fact is he is a liar who did so to gain power and is now attempting to implement a socialist agenda. So this is a non-issue?

I don't think he stated he agreed with Obama's promise to withdraw, only that Obama did in fact make the promise and he provided quotes of said promise. Just one more example of an Obama lie. (or was it a mis-statement?)

Two words for ya: compassionate conservatism.

[OldSchool]

Was he the president in Sept 2007???

Your post- your claim is total BS. Typical - take a non-issue and try to make it into something it is not.

If he had managed to get us out already, you would be screaming that the terrahists had won. :rolleyes:

But it is not surprising - just a typical repub tactic - lots of hand-wringing and predictions of doom. Too bad you don't realize it's the GOP that is going down. Isn't it about time that you started worrying about the important stuff? :smash:

David Frum

If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.
So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

Andrew Sprung

The flip side of Obama's perhaps naive belief that he can win Republicans over is his ability to show them up. Americans are confused about the plan, but they are not confused about the man. By large margins they trust Obama more than they do the Republicans to produce rational solutions to the country's problems. In the past month, he exploited his mastery of policy detail, his pragmatism, his focus on effectively alleviating the suffering he spotlighted, and his willingness to stake his political future on getting this bill passed to the utmost. The full eloquence and passion of the campaign came back to his lips in forum after forum and speech after speech.
To Democratic legislators, his message was that this bill epitomized why they had sought public office and why they were Democrats; it was the raison d'etre for their careers; in effect, passing it was worth their careers (and would make or break his own).

Come on Jay, quit drinking the .......

[fund razor]

Two words for ya: compassionate conservatism.

Here's two for you: unrecovered hippie.

[Tommy Gun]

It may come to a point where an anarchist revolution may seem like a viable option.....

Seeems that that is where we are headed if this train cannot be turned around. Fortunately the liberals aren't bright enough to arm themselves.

[Chris]

Guys- This IS an anarchist revolution. THEY are the anarchists. They're the one's putting radical reformers into high places in government and using our very own system to take it where they want to go.

As I've said repeatedly, this is the result of a democratically-elected representative government. Back in the 80's, you had idealistic young people voting Republican when it didn't even serve their best interests to do so. The Republican policies were geared to the benefit of their parents and their employers. But they all had the optimism to believe that's where they were headed.

Today, that middle is headed downward. We've failed as a society to prepare them for a global economy and now they're competing with other manual labor based economies like Vietnam and S. Korea. And there aren't alot of F-150's and bass boats in the driveways of 4 betdoom homes in Saigon or Seoul these days. When the sentiment among the masses is to "rob from the rich", you've got problems. Simply because they can- at least until the rich are tapped out.

[DollaBill]

I joked about moving to Canada 5 years ago. It's becoming a reality lately

[hotjava66]

History is littered with ancient failed civilizations. Ultimate failure is the norm. The Myans, the Egyptions, the Roman empire..... Dare we think our little 230 year old experiment is somehow special? Every candle that has burned bright has burnt out.

We will survive, our children are going to have it rough, our grandchildren are phucked.

All the great early democracies were destroyed by the government getting to big and taking too much resources. When those who take from the system outnumber those who contribute, or in todays terms, use more tax dollars than can be paid in, they crumble. We are well down that road now. And it will get worse, as more voters are on the take, that is the real danger here. Eventually you will get a society of A.Politicians, B.An Elite Class, C.Goverment employees, D.Peons. If we dont change our ways, it will be the death of the self-made man who can find success through hard work. Only politics will be the way to success, and there goes the incentive to produce anything. We all need to get involved and clean up this mess before it is too late. I think most of us agree things need to be done, but not in this fashion. This isnt about health care, it is about the future of our democracy and the opportunities that are here.

[Chris]

I joked about moving to Canada 5 years ago. It's becoming a reality lately

Move to Florida- they're exempt.

Or are they? I know there were back-door deals in there. I'd be surprised if they came out.

[hotjava66]

If it takes a revolution, so be it. When I was in DC viewing the Constitution last fall there is a plaque outside saying the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. We havent been so, it is time now. Either we take back our government from the politicians by due process, or if they have subverted the system enough, we do it ourselves. If you think the military would stand against the population, and for the current government, you are nuts, these are people who are willing to risk their lives for love of country. This is worst case, of course, we still can fix things if we get on it now.

[catastrophe]

I joked about moving to Canada 5 years ago. It's becoming a reality lately

I feel safe inviting you to stay with me cuz I know you wont show up:sifone::sifone:

If you do decide to come...learn Punjabi first....your co workers at 7-11 wont understand you.

But Welcome to Canadaindia anyway buddy.

[DollaBill]

I feel safe inviting you to stay with me cuz I know you wont show up:sifone::sifone:

OK, now thats funny

[phragle]

I have been searching for a way to elaborate on my personal feelings (phuck I sound like Dr. Phil) on the issue...

I believe in goodwill towards man, I am not an evil cold hearted bastard.

Last year at Harrison, I opened my motorhome to all serious members, heck it was an open invite to all in attendence even if you were a card carrying OSO member. I drink rum drinks, yet I bought 2 cases of beer, even though I wasn't drinking beer, to share with everyone. Did I do it because I wanted too? Yes. Now if the board had demanded that I provide a hospitality coach at my expenses, I may have resented that.

I helped Fundy a couple times last summer with his Apache project,Fundy is a friend of mine, he knows that if he called me up and said Rob, I need some help, that I would be there to help. If he called me up and said "I don't care if your studying for a test tomorrow, you are going to come over and fix my boat right now", That wouldn't have gone over very well.

I have a bit of medical knowledge, if a complete stranger knocked on my door with blood running down his arm, I would do my best to fix the situation without expectation of payment.

IMHO, the Govt. is demanding that we take care of others. This will serve no purpose except turning good will into resentment. While as a medical professional, I will provide good care to anyone I treat, I gaurantee you my bedside manner and level of care will be much better for the person I want to help.

[fund razor]

IMHO, the Govt. is demanding that we take care of others. This will serve no purpose except turning good will into resentment.

I have donors calling asking where my organization stands on the issue because if they are forced to support those who they didn't choose to... they will stop supporting those that they wanted to. I have gotten some emails too.

[htrdlncn]

Thruout the history of man all great empires have fallen.
We are no different.
Probably wont happen in our lifetime and it may not be destroyed completely
but it will fall. It is in mans nature to destroy
what he can not have and we have had for the past 200 years what most of
the world does not, freedom and lifestyle. Unless we nuke everyone except
ourselves it will happen.

[LotoSteve]

I have been searching for a way to elaborate on my personal feelings (phuck I sound like Dr. Phil) on the issue...

I believe in goodwill towards man, I am not an evil cold hearted bastard.

Last year at Harrison, I opened my motorhome to all serious members, heck it was an open invite to all in attendence even if you were a card carrying OSO member. I drink rum drinks, yet I bought 2 cases of beer, even though I wasn't drinking beer, to share with everyone. Did I do it because I wanted too? Yes. Now if the board had demanded that I provide a hospitality coach at my expenses, I may have resented that.

I helped Fundy a couple times last summer with his Apache project,Fundy is a friend of mine, he knows that if he called me up and said Rob, I need some help, that I would be there to help. If he called me up and said "I don't care if your studying for a test tomorrow, you are going to come over and fix my boat right now", That wouldn't have gone over very well.

I have a bit of medical knowledge, if a complete stranger knocked on my door with blood running down his arm, I would do my best to fix the situation without expectation of payment.

IMHO, the Govt. is demanding that we take care of others. This will serve no purpose except turning good will into resentment. While as a medical professional, I will provide good care to anyone I treat, I gaurantee you my bedside manner and level of care will be much better for the person I want to help.

Sissy :)

[phragle]

Sissy :)

I heard girls like guys that are in touch with their feelings, at least thats what was said on Oprah the other day...... :kiss:

[GregP]

Passing the health care reform bill was long overdue.

Is it a perfect bill, no, it's loaded with lots of useless drivel and favors (most of them BY and FOR the insurance companies) like evey legislation past in the last 10-20-30? years (including the hallowed Ronnie and Bushie years). The key things, like preventing insurance companies from charging you premiums until you actually get sick and then canceling you, will last. The bad will get "adjusted" out over time. There are several years built in before much of it actually takes effect anyway.

It could have been a better bill if the Republicans leaders weren't so arrogant. They agree to most of whats in the bill (and have said so), but were to set in their "tear it up and start over" mantra to actually consider trying to make it better. If they had come out with some "we will vote for it if you change" ideas you can bet they would have been adopted just like all the other deals-for-votes.

I would have preferred they tackle corporate greed first, but that is next on the agenda and I hope it doesn't stop with just the financial markets. If you want to make mega-bucks do it putting your own money at risk. If your risking others money not yours then you don't deserve big money and bonuses for simply doing your job. That money belongs as profits to the real owners and creating more jobs and investment for the future. I'm still hoping for 90%+ pay cuts at Goldman Sachs and the rest of corporate senior management (their pay has gone up 10 times what it was relative to the rest of their employees and it's time to cut it back to where it was) but since $ for favors still rules Washington we will be lucky to see a fraction of that.

-Greg

[Chris]

I feel safe inviting you to stay with me cuz I know you wont show up:sifone::sifone:

If you do decide to come...learn Punjabi first....your co workers at 7-11 wont understand you.

But Welcome to Canadaindia anyway buddy.

When I was up to see you, I was astonished that the workers in a coffee shop didn't speak any English. And it wasn't like I was in some ethnic neighborhood. I was in a Tim's by the Convention Center.

[DollaBill]

Passing the health care reform bill was long overdue.

Is it a perfect bill, no, it's loaded with lots of useless drivel and favors (most of them BY and FOR the insurance companies) like evey legislation past in the last 10-20-30? years (including the hallowed Ronnie and Bushie years). The key things, like preventing insurance companies from charging you premiums until you actually get sick and then canceling you, will last. The bad will get "adjusted" out over time. There are several years built in before much of it actually takes effect anyway.

It could have been a better bill if the Republicans leaders weren't so arrogant. They agree to most of whats in the bill (and have said so), but were to set in their "tear it up and start over" mantra to actually consider trying to make it better. If they had come out with some "we will vote for it if you change" ideas you can bet they would have been adopted just like all the other deals-for-votes.

I would have preferred they tackle corporate greed first, but that is next on the agenda and I hope it doesn't stop with just the financial markets. If you want to make mega-bucks do it putting your own money at risk. If your risking others money not yours then you don't deserve big money and bonuses for simply doing your job. That money belongs as profits to the real owners and creating more jobs and investment for the future. I'm still hoping for 90%+ pay cuts at Goldman Sachs and the rest of corporate senior management (their pay has gone up 10 times what it was relative to the rest of their employees and it's time to cut it back to where it was) but since $ for favors still rules Washington we will be lucky to see a fraction of that.

-Greg

You actually believe that the govt is interested doing whats right and will now be "fixing" the financial system? ROTFLMAO. Next you'll say the president was elected by the people and is there to watch over the country. You do realize all this is just a scripted TV show right?

As far as wall street and regulation the only regulation that will work is that which is dictated by the public. You lost your money? I guess you won't send it to a wall street firm anymore. Thats the only way it will work

[Ted]

Don't you work for a greedy corporation Greg? If this bill was worth anything what so ever don't you think the evil Republicans would have jumped on the band wagon, at least some?????? Nope, this stinker belongs to the party of the limousine liberal lawyers and they will have to learn how to go back and get a real job when the party ends in November, lucky THEIR healthcare is portable :rolleyes:






Passing the health care reform bill was long overdue.

Is it a perfect bill, no, it's loaded with lots of useless drivel and favors (most of them BY and FOR the insurance companies) like evey legislation past in the last 10-20-30? years (including the hallowed Ronnie and Bushie years). The key things, like preventing insurance companies from charging you premiums until you actually get sick and then canceling you, will last. The bad will get "adjusted" out over time. There are several years built in before much of it actually takes effect anyway.

It could have been a better bill if the Republicans leaders weren't so arrogant. They agree to most of whats in the bill (and have said so), but were to set in their "tear it up and start over" mantra to actually consider trying to make it better. If they had come out with some "we will vote for it if you change" ideas you can bet they would have been adopted just like all the other deals-for-votes.

I would have preferred they tackle corporate greed first, but that is next on the agenda and I hope it doesn't stop with just the financial markets. If you want to make mega-bucks do it putting your own money at risk. If your risking others money not yours then you don't deserve big money and bonuses for simply doing your job. That money belongs as profits to the real owners and creating more jobs and investment for the future. I'm still hoping for 90%+ pay cuts at Goldman Sachs and the rest of corporate senior management (their pay has gone up 10 times what it was relative to the rest of their employees and it's time to cut it back to where it was) but since $ for favors still rules Washington we will be lucky to see a fraction of that.

-Greg

[DollaBill]

I feel safe inviting you to stay with me cuz I know you wont show up:sifone::sifone:

If you do decide to come...learn Punjabi first....your co workers at 7-11 wont understand you.

But Welcome to Canadaindia anyway buddy.

I'll still continue to do business in the US. But the company will be based out of a nice tax free place and so will my income. I'll just be "hanging out" in Canada for a few weeks at a time.

BTW - I learned that if you reside in Puerto Rico you pay no income tax ;). And you get all the benefits of being a US citizen. Something to look into

[Tommy Gun]

It could have been a better bill if the Republicans leaders weren't so arrogant. They agree to most of whats in the bill (and have said so), but were to set in their "tear it up and start over" mantra to actually consider trying to make it better. If they had come out with some "we will vote for it if you change" ideas you can bet they would have been adopted just like all the other deals-for-votes.



Are you serious? The greedy Dem's cut the Republicans out of the process because they had the neccessary fillibuster proof vote. They had no reason to listen or care what the Republicans said. They only invited them in when Brown won mass. Perfect example, where is the tort reform?...you want to reduce costs? Creating more competition between companies by allowing customers to purchase across state lines? Logical but ignored. They voted no because there were several things in the bill they were adamantly oppossed to. Special treatment, corruption, pork, back room deals, taxes, gimmick accounting, deficit spending, etc.

The Republicans wanted a bill based on the concepts both parties could agree on; the Democrats wanted none of that...it was their way or the highway.

[TCEd]

"Statewide, some 536,000 uninsured residents will gain access to coverage, and 781,000 young adults will become eligible for parental policy coverage"

Numbers released for Michigan.

[phragle]

Adding 536,000 and 781,000 you get 1,317,000. According to the US govt census data in 2006 the population of detroit was 871,121.......

[DollaBill]

Adding 536,000 and 781,000 you get 1,317,000. According to the US govt census data in 2006 the population of detroit was 871,121.......

AND you expect them to know math? right......... LMAO

[LotoSteve]

AND you expect them to know math? right......... LMAO

Its special math called ACORN and its only used for counting votes and government entitlements.

[TCEd]

Adding 536,000 and 781,000 you get 1,317,000. According to the US govt census data in 2006 the population of detroit was 871,121.......

Those are the numbers for Michigan not Detroit ! Remember, the hand shaped state with a penninsula added above.

[Tommy Gun]

Its special math called ACORN and its only used for counting votes and government entitlements.

LOL! http://www.firenancypelosi.com/

[GregP]

Don't you work for a greedy corporation Greg?

Yes and I'm sure the CEO's are also overpaid and they work the Congressional Plus-Ups like other companies but I don't agree with it.

Republicans (nor Dems) will ever touch real tort reform, like making lawyers who work on % liable as co-defendents if the suit is ruled frivolous, limiting the % of an award that the lawyers can consume, and stating to the jury just what the lawyers $ arrangements are, as they are both full of lawyers who won't do anything to cut down their and their friends money tree.

The republicans ARE the party of big greed and big corporations, which is why I left the party. Rember who was the leading cause for both the financial crash (which was really only a crash to the few companies with the government in their pocket who didn't want to take their loss and are now paying themselves back big bonuses) and started the Friends of the gov bailout (remember who started dumping $ with no strings to the favored few) ... although the Dems are close behind in getting corporate $.

If you really want the government to listen to the majority (not just the favored few campain contributors) what we need is NO private campain $, only a strictly set public-funded allowance for each candidate who gets on the ballot. Also no paid political party positions, no corporate paid political ads, no PAC paid political ads, only whatever speaches the candidates can get covered by the press and their personal appearances. But I don't see anyone pushing for that kind of real "take the $ away from running things" reform.

The only reason anything gets passed in congress is because it benefits some company or big $ contributor.

-Greg

[GregP]

Are you serious? .

Yes. Even the religous right got in their pay-to-play gift with the last minute abortion directive. The Republican leadeship's only goal was to see if they could make it not pass, as even being part of passing something good can't be allowed if it isn't on their watch.

-g

[phragle]

Those are the numbers for Michigan not Detroit ! Remember, the hand shaped state with a penninsula added above.


I was meaning as a ratio example of Detroit (lrgest city in state) vs. the numbers for the entire state, but I did not phrase it well.

[Tommy Gun]

Yes. Even the religous right got in their pay-to-play gift with the last minute abortion directive. The Republican leadeship's only goal was to see if they could make it not pass, as even being part of passing something good can't be allowed if it isn't on their watch.

-g

Did the Democrats not jerk themselves around for months because even they couldn't agree on the bill?...and puleese, the religious right got nothing with that worthless Obama order; it was pure political cover so Stupak could vote yes and tell his consituents he was looking out for them.

But I am on totally board with limiting the contributions, just think what good could be accomplished with that money.

[phragle]

Greg, as I have stated before, it's not tort reform persay in medical malpractice. a lawyer is doing his job within the confines of the law. What really exacerbates the problem is judges who allow frivolous suits to move foreward and allow obscene judgements and docotrs themselves. To bring a successfull malpractice suit foreward you must have expert testimony to prove that negligance does indeed exist. that expert testimony is provided by doctors who charge obscene amounts to provid testimoney. Without those doctors testifying, malpractice would dry up. If judges stood their ground, ma;practice would dry up considerably. While it is popular, you reallycan't blame lawyers wholely for the problem. If the lawyer didn't go after everything including the kitchen sink, the party could turn around and sue the lawyer for what amounts to legal malpractice.

[GregP]

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. (AP) - The Associated Press says Reynolds American CEO Susan Ivey made $16.2 million last year, about 84 percent more than the previous year as the nation's second-biggest tobacco company struggled with declines in cigarette demand.

Another example of gross corporate greed. No one should get that kind of $, even if the company sales icnreased by 1000 times.

-g

[LaughingCat]

You guys are all worked in a frenzy and will achieve nothing, much like what your guidance counsellors once told you. :sifone:

You can be extraordinarily weathly backing either party. The fact is, few people actually attain real wealth. The rest are given their rally cries and little bags of hope so they can tow the line for the few wealthy.

So they give you things to argue about and we dabble around in the sport. But in the end, most people will never see any real benefit, from either party, but we'll always blame the other side and keep on fighting.

Here's reality: If everyone voted based on their wallets, Republicans would never win anything. If people always voted Democrat, there'd be nothing in their wallets. So we just waver between the two parties hoping to scrape a few coins together.

[GregP]

Phragle -

I agree judges are a lot of the problem ... and judges were - and are always concerned they may one day have to go back to being - lawyers.

Juries are no better, they are hand picked by the lawyers to have minimal intelligence and follow the herd like lemmings by - lawyers.

I don't know about you but I keep seeing a trend here.

-g

[DollaBill]

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. (AP) - The Associated Press says Reynolds American CEO Susan Ivey made $16.2 million last year, about 84 percent more than the previous year as the nation's second-biggest tobacco company struggled with declines in cigarette demand.

Another example of gross corporate greed. No one should get that kind of $, even if the company sales icnreased by 1000 times.

-g

why? if the company's sales increased dramatically a few million won't make a dent.

[OldSchool]

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. (AP) - The Associated Press says Reynolds American CEO Susan Ivey made $16.2 million last year, about 84 percent more than the previous year as the nation's second-biggest tobacco company struggled with declines in cigarette demand.

Another example of gross corporate greed. No one should get that kind of $, even if the company sales icnreased by 1000 times.

-g

You are right Greg. There is no way that that woman needs all of that $$$. The Gov't should take 15 million of it and send $10,000 to 1500 people. That way, more people could be happy!!!

See how ridiculous that sounds??

Disclaimer: I'm not being serious!!:sifone:

[fund razor]

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. (AP) - The Associated Press says Reynolds American CEO Susan Ivey made $16.2 million last year, about 84 percent more than the previous year as the nation's second-biggest tobacco company struggled with declines in cigarette demand.

Another example of gross corporate greed. No one should get that kind of $, even if the company sales icnreased by 1000 times.

-g
Sounds like an emotional argument.
It's called the free market system Greg. Socialists really hate it, because those "wealthy fat cats" just pizz them off. What they forget is that 86% of all federal income taxes are paid by the top 25% and the bottom 50% pay just 3%.
Ms. Ivey has been President and Chief Executive Officer of RAI since January 2004, and was elected the Chairman of the Board of RAI effective January 1, 2006. She served as Chairman of the Board of R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company, a wholly owned operating subsidiary of RAI, referred to as RJR Tobacco, from July 2004 to May 2008. From July 2004 to December 2006, she also served as Chief Executive Officer of RJR Tobacco. She served as President and Chief Executive Officer of B&W from 2001 to 2004. Ms. Ivey also served as a director of B&W from 2000 to 2004 and Chairman of the Board of B&W from January 2003 to 2004. Prior to 2001, Ms. Ivey held various marketing positions with B&W and BAT after joining B&W in 1981. Ms. Ivey commenced serving on the Board of RAI as of January 2004. She also is a member of the board of directors of R.R. Donnelley & Sons Company. In addition, Ms. Ivey is a member of the boards of directors of the United Way of Forsyth County, the Winston-Salem YWCA and the University of Florida Foundation; and serves on the boards of trustees of Wake Forest University, Senior Services, Inc. of Winston-Salem and Salem College.

From Equilar:
Her base pay in 2008 (last year verifiable) was $1,200,000 and bonuses took her to around 8m. She paid more in federal tax in a single year than you could obviously ever imagine.

I don't think that it is any of your business what somebody else's bonus package is unless they work for you, or the government.

[OldSchool]

This is one of my favorites of all time. Every now and then I feel that it's appropriate to post it. Enjoy!!! :sifone::cheers2:



The liberal daughter



Father/Daughter Talk

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many
others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and
among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to
support more government programs, in other words redistribution of wealth.


She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a
feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had
participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her
father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he
thought should be his.


One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on
the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed
objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she
indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing in
school.


Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let
him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very
difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to
go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a
boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent all
her time studying.


Her father listened and then asked, 'How is your friend Audrey doing?' She
replied, 'Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she
never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus;
college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots
of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over.'

Her wise father asked his daughter,


'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct 1.0 off your
GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both
have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of
GPA.'


The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired
back, 'That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked really hard
for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey
has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my
tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the Republican
party.'

[LotoSteve]

I just got this in an email. Probably BS but maybe not.


Senator Bayh,

As a practicing physician I have major concerns with the health care bill before Congress. I actually have read the bill and am shocked by the brazenness of the government's proposed involvement in the patient-physician relationship. The very idea that the government will dictate and ration patient care is dangerous and certainly not helpful in designing a health care system that works for all. Every physician I work with agrees that we need to fix our health care system, but the proposed bills currently making their way through congress will be a disaster if passed.

I ask you respectfully and as a patriotic American to look at the following troubling lines that I have read in the bill. You cannot possibly believe that these proposals are in the best interests of the country and our fellow citizens.

Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit books of all employers that self-insure!!

Page 30 Sec 123 of HC bill: THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!

Page 42 of HC Bill: The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC benefits for you. You have no choice!

Page 50 Section 152 in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals' finances & a 'National ID Health card' will be issued! (Papers please!)

Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer. (Time for more cash and carry)

Page 65 Sec 164: Is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions & community organizations: (ACORN).

Page 84 Sec 203 HC bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the 'Exchange.'

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans -- The Govt will ration your health care!

Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. (Translation: illegal aliens.)

Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups (i.e. ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans. (AARP members - your health care WILL be rationed!)

Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. (No choice.)

Page 12 4 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt monopoly.

Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American Medical Association - The Govt will tell YOU what salary you can make.

Page 145 Line 15-17: An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan. (NO choice!)

Page 126 Lines 22-25: Employers MUST pay for HC for part-time employees ANDtheir families. (Employees shouldn't get excited about this as employers will be forced to reduce its work force, benefits, and wages/salaries to cover such a huge expense.)

Page 149 Lines 16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who does not provide public option will pay 8% tax on all payroll! (See the last comment in parenthesis.)

Page 150 Lines 9-13: A business with payroll between $251K & $401K who doesn't provide public option will pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.


Page 167 Lines 18-23: ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.) (Like always)

Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of the GOVT HC Admin.. will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records. (I guess so they can 'deduct' their fees)

Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." (Yes, it really says that!) ( a 'fee' instead)

Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid Seniors. (Low-income and the poor are affected.)

Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors: It doesn't matter what specialty you have trained yourself in -- you will all be paid the same! (Just TRY to tell me that's not Socialism!)

Page 253 Line 10-18: The Govt sets the value of a doctor's time, profession, judgment, etc. (Literally-- the value of humans.)

Page 265 Sec 1131: The Govt mandates and controls productivity for "private" HC industries.

Page 268 Sec 1141: The federal Govt regulates the rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

Page 272 SEC. 1145: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151: The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever the Govt deems preventable (i.e...re-admissions).

Page 298 Lines 9-11: Doctors: If you treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission -- the Govt will penalize you.

Page 317 L 13-20: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. (The Govt tells doctors what and how much they can own!)

Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion. (The Govt is mandating that hospitals cannot expand.)

Page 321 2-13: Hospitals have the opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. (Can you say ACORN?)
Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339: The Govt mandates establishment of=2 outcome-based measures. (HC the way they want -- rationing.)

Page 341 Lines 3-9: The Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. (Forcing people into the Govt plan)


Page 354 Sec 1177: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special needs people!' Unbelievable!

Page 379 Sec 1191: The Govt creates more bureaucracy via a "Tele-Health Advisory Committee." (Can you say HC by phone?)

Page 425 Lines 4-12: The Govt mandates "Advance-Care Planning Consult." (Think senior citizens end-of-life patients.)

Page 425 Lines 17-19: The Govt will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. (And it's mandatory!)

Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: The Govt provides an "approved" list of end-of-life resources; guiding you in death. (Also called 'assisted suicide.')(Sounds like Soylent Green to me.)

Page 427 Lines 15-24: The Govt mandates a program for orders on "end-of-life." (The Govt has a say in how your life ends!)

Page 429 Lines 1-9: An "advanced-care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates.

Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans.. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE GOVERNMENT?!?)

Page 429 Lines 13-25: The GOVT will specify which doctors can write an end-of-life order.. (I wouldn't want to stand before God after getting paid for THAT job!)

Page 430 Lines 11-15: The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end-of-life! (Again -- no choice!)

Page 469: Community-Based Home Medical Services = Non-Profit Organizations. (Hello? ACORN Medical Services here!?!)

Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.)

Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.

Senator, I guarantee that I personally will do everything possible to inform patients and my fellow physicians about the dangers of the proposed bills you and your colleagues are debating.

Furthermore, if you vote for a bill that enforces socialized medicine on the country and destroys the doctor-patient relationship, I will do everything in my power to make sure you lose your job in the next election.

Respectfully,

Stephen E. Fraser, MD

[LaughingCat]

Total horse sh!t. This came around as a video the other day. I downloaded the bill and looked up page 29. It talks about maximum out of pocket for the insured, not rationed care. Deleted the video after that. Check for yourself.

They figure no one will look anything up. I love how they even give you the page and lines to see they're fully of crap.

This is the bigger problem for politicians. They still dont undertand fact-checking is not a laborious effort. Google and a keyboard will refute most lies and propaganda.

[LaughingCat]

You are right Greg. There is no way that that woman needs all of that $$$.


Holy crap bro, I totally thought you were going the male chiavanist Pig route. Was starting to crack up.

http://www.boreme.com/media/yr2004/i_feminists.jpg

[catastrophe]

I just got this in an email. Probably BS but maybe not.


I love the way you leave an escape route about validity at the beginning....but post the crap anyway.
Cute.

[LotoSteve]

I love the way you leave an escape route about validity at the beginning....but post the crap anyway.
Cute.

Just trying to be entertaining.....:USA:

[DollaBill]

just following the theme and lightening the thread :)

[Chris]

I saw the stack of papers that is the bill. It's pretty big. I find it hard to believe that any one person knows all of what's in it. And I doubt many members of the congress that just voted for it know any more about it that what someone else has told them about it.

And as with most new legislation, there's inevitably going to be the effects of the Law of Unforseen Consequences at play. That means that in actions like this, there will be things that no one though of that are negatively impacted. The bigger the bill, the greater that number of instances.

So...


Based on that, I don't know that I'm prepared to disbelieve anything as of yet.

[catastrophe]

I saw the stack of papers that is the bill. It's pretty big. I find it hard to believe that any one person knows all of what's in it. And I doubt many members of the congress that just voted for it know any more about it that what someone else has told them about it.

And as with most new legislation, there's inevitably going to be the effects of the Law of Unforseen Consequences at play. That means that in actions like this, there will be things that no one though of that are negatively impacted. The bigger the bill, the greater that number of instances.

So...


Based on that, I don't know that I'm prepared to disbelieve anything as of yet.


I agree.............no one person understands it...on the side that voted FOR it or the side that voted AGAINST it.

And its garbage in total if the controls on spending, lawsuits and wastefulness dont go hand in hand with it as it is rolled out to the public.

Despite what side of the fence you are on.


And Steve

I made that comment with respect........cute.....well done:USA:

[LaughingCat]

just following the theme and lightening the thread :)


Outstanding. Any more?



. . .

So...


Based on that, I don't know that I'm prepared to disbelieve anything as of yet.

My God, man. You are rational. No wonder you are Master of our Domain.

[LaughingCat]

I should've made two separate quotes an replies just to run my count up and piss Jay off.

:sifone:

[cigdaze]

Read it and weep.
http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf

[Sea-Dated]

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. (AP) - The Associated Press says Reynolds American CEO Susan Ivey made $16.2 million last year, about 84 percent more than the previous year as the nation's second-biggest tobacco company struggled with declines in cigarette demand.

Another example of gross corporate greed. No one should get that kind of $, even if the company sales icnreased by 1000 times.

-g

If you were that CEO and you busted your a$$ to acheive the #'s you wouldn't feel that way and you know it. You would smile, take the check, and head straight to Skater or MTI or whatever and buy a boat.

Great double standard and don't try to deny it.

[Chris]

No one should get that kind of $, even if the company sales icnreased by 1000 times.

-g

I'm truly interested to know the rationale behind this statement.

They didn't steal the money. They didn't even write the check. These CEO's are highly recruited by the boards of directors of every major American corporation. Their skills are highly sought after. These same boards set their salaries and bonus/benefits packages. If you own shares in this corporation, you voted for the Board that brought this person in. If they don't manage your investment to your liking, you're free to vote in others. Or get your fellow shareholders together and put your own boardmembers in place. or divest yourself of the interest in the company. Beyond that, it's a private business- if you have no financial interest in it, your opinion on what they do is invalid.

Governments interfering in the financial matters of private corporations to the extent of controlling the wages and salaries is textbook Facism.

[Tommy Gun]

Governments interfering in the financial matters of private corporations to the extent of controlling the wages and salaries is textbook Facism.

From the developments lately looks like our Democratic party is doing a good job of recruiting and selling those very ideals.

[jayboat]

I should've made two separate quotes an replies just to run my count up and piss Jay off.

:sifone:

:toetap05: :sifone:

[jayboat]

This is one of my favorites of all time. Every now and then I feel that it's appropriate to post it. Enjoy!!! :sifone::cheers2:



The liberal daughter



Father/Daughter Talk

[...blah, blah, blah...]

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the Republican
party.'

awwwww. That gives me such a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Remind me to thank you personally this weekend. :smash::sifone:

[catastrophe]

We'll all get kicked out of the poker run.....eating Craigs burritos and drinking Jays champagne.:driving:

[Wrinkleface]

We'll all get kicked out of the poker run.....eating Craigs burritos and drinking Jays champagne.:driving:

:eek:

[Chris]

From the developments lately looks like our Democratic party is doing a good job of recruiting and selling those very ideals.

I have merely a recreational interest in history and world politics. And even I recognize that the fundamentals that initiatives like these are being based on are time-tested principles that. That all failed miserably.

I fear that once again, someone has to do significant damage to our country before people will wake up and embrace the basic fundamentals that we need to exist by in order to prosper.

This health care legislation is likely the first of a few yet to come. I'm certain they'll be emboldened by their success and they'll attempt to ram some more down out throats before we kick them to the curb in the midterms.

[catastrophe]

I have merely a recreational interest in history and world politics. And even I recognize that the fundamentals that initiatives like these are being based on are time-tested principles that. That all failed miserably.

I fear that once again, someone has to do significant damage to our country before people will wake up and embrace the basic fundamentals that we need to exist by in order to prosper.

This health care legislation is likely the first of a few yet to come. I'm certain they'll be emboldened by their success and they'll attempt to ram some more down out throats before we kick them to the curb in the midterms.



Dont be blaming their offense...blame your own defense.

[Tommy Gun]

I guess I should have paid closer attention during high school when I took "Political Ideologies and Theisms"...I do remember the final being an essay, but that was way many beers ago.

[Chris]

Dont be blaming their offense...blame your own defense.

This is no great idealogical political victory. It was a coincidence of timing. This was just the first window they've had since the 60's to slip it in. They almost had this window in the 90's, when George Bush made the mistake of being president when it was time for a recession. But there was too much latent conservatism in the country.

This is going to be expensive for the Dems.

[Wrinkleface]

I guess I should have paid closer attention during high school when I took "Political Ideologies and Theisms"...I do remember the final being an essay, but that was way to many hookers & beers ago.

:huh:

[fund razor]

I'm truly interested to know the rationale behind this statement.

They didn't steal the money. They didn't even write the check. These CEO's are highly recruited by the boards of directors of every major American corporation. Their skills are highly sought after. These same boards set their salaries and bonus/benefits packages. If you own shares in this corporation, you voted for the Board that brought this person in. If they don't manage your investment to your liking, you're free to vote in others. Or get your fellow shareholders together and put your own boardmembers in place. or divest yourself of the interest in the company. Beyond that, it's a private business- if you have no financial interest in it, your opinion on what they do is invalid.

Governments interfering in the financial matters of private corporations to the extent of controlling the wages and salaries is textbook Facism.

No doubt Chris. Amazing the accidental Marxists among us.

What happened this weekend was a constitutional abomination. What they did against the will of the American people will not stand. It is nothing that the supreme court first, and 5 boxes of cartridges last... won't fix. I hope that we can employ the former, although Mr. Jefferson reminded us that the latter is also a possibility.

[fund razor]

I love the way you leave an escape route about validity at the beginning....but post the crap anyway.
Cute.

I don' expect Canadians to understand this. Your country was built on treaty, apology and appeasement. While I respect the civility of all that, I really do.... That's what makes your country great...
You must understand that our country was built by force. The will of the strongest will overcome the will of the weak. That's what made us great. Not fair. Not perfect. Just great. Life isn't fair anyway. Any attempt to run from that and pretend we are Canadians will only dilute our nature.

[Tommy Gun]

:huh:

Yeah, I went to a public high school too.

Krauthammer predicts a National Sales tax to deal with the massive deficit these arrogant Democrats are running up.

[fund razor]

Watch... they are about to ROCK us on the death tax/inheretance tax.
It was rolled back to.... wait for it.... zero.

The fundraisers are planning for a 1 million dollar exemption, a double digit jump in estate tax and a gift tax of as much as 48%.

But that doesn't impact liberals. Their parents are poor anyway.
They don't want to create an aristocracy or anything by letting me inherent my parents wealth. They'd rather take it from me and pay for some never-grew-out-of-being-a-hippy-non-producer.

[fund razor]

This is pretty funny: Iran and Afghanistan currently have universal health care and we pay for it.

[Tommy Gun]

Yeah shocking...not; and our new to be healthcare bill is also a gov't takeover of student loans...remember how well Fannie and Freddie are doing?

So why is the takeover of studnet loans in a healthcare reform bill???? Dishonest, lying, bastrd crooks...that's why.

[fund razor]

My parents don't have wealth... btw. It was hypothetical. :o

[LotoSteve]

I agree.............no one person understands it...on the side that voted FOR it or the side that voted AGAINST it.

And its garbage in total if the controls on spending, lawsuits and wastefulness dont go hand in hand with it as it is rolled out to the public.

Despite what side of the fence you are on.


And Steve

I made that comment with respect........cute.....well done:USA:

Oh I know. Never took it any other way.

[LotoSteve]

I don' expect Canadians to understand this. Your country was built on treaty, apology and appeasement. While I respect the civility of all that, I really do.... That's what makes your country great...
You must understand that our country was built by force. The will of the strongest will overcome the will of the weak. That's what made us great. Not fair. Not perfect. Just great. Life isn't fair anyway. Any attempt to run from that and pretend we are Canadians will only dilute our nature.

I have to disagree with this a little bit. Yes the USA was born out of force (with lots of help) but what really made us great is our natural resources. We also made it through WW2 with barely a scratch compared to Europe and in the end they all owed us for supplying them during the war.

[phragle]

Yeah shocking...not; and our new to be healthcare bill is also a gov't takeover of student loans...remember how well Fannie and Freddie are doing?

So why is the takeover of studnet loans in a healthcare reform bill???? Dishonest, lying, bastrd crooks...that's why.

Anybody have the readers digest version of what this is going to do to my student loans??

[Chris]

FWIW, Nancy Pelosi is one of the wealthiest people in Congress with a personal net worth of over $25 mil. Now, she's been in politics her entire life. She's not like Bloomberg who got rich then went into the biz. So how does a lifetime public servant end up with that much cheese? And do you know any municipal sewer workers, cops or plow truck drivers with that kind of wealth?

[Wrinkleface]

FWIW, Nancy Pelosi is one of the wealthiest people in Congress with a personal net worth of over $25 mil.

nice hunk'o cheese!!!

[LotoSteve]

Anybody have the readers digest version of what this is going to do to my student loans??

Miss a payment and the IRS will take all your chit.

[Wrinkleface]

Miss a payment and the IRS will take all your chit.

he's FK'd!!!!:eek: they will take his Captain Morgan & drink it in front of him while they beat him!!:smash:

[phragle]

Damn... I'm putting my boat in my teddy bears name then....

[phragle]

he's FK'd!!!!:eek: they will take his Captain Morgan & drink it in front of him while they beat him!!:smash:

Over my dead body!!! Waco and Ruby ridge mean anything to them bastages?? If the Capt and I are going down, their goingwith us!!! :cuss::cuss::cuss:

[Wrinkleface]

Over my dead body!!! Waco and Ruby ridge mean anything to them bastages?? If the Capt and I are going down, their goingwith us!!! :cuss::cuss::cuss:

right on Slayer!!!!

[Tommy Gun]

Lock & load boys, lock & load.

[Wrinkleface]

Lock & load boys, lock & load.

will there B any warning shots????????????????:confused:

[Tommy Gun]

Not 4 U...BTW the wife opened my phone with your latest text message...LOL!

[Wrinkleface]

Not 4 U...BTW the wife opened my phone with your latest text message...LOL!

:biggrinjester:

[BBB725]

Not 4 U...BTW the wife opened my phone with your latest text message...LOL!

I hope it wasn't the same one I got:sifone:

[DollaBill]

hehehe

[LaughingCat]

Looks like the Market is shaking off the bad news. Health stocks are up, prescription manufacturers are up, index is up. Maybe having many more people signed up and getting services might make them money. Just saying. . .

[LAriverratt]

Looks like the Market is shaking off the bad news. Health stocks are up, prescription manufacturers are up, index is up. Maybe having many more people signed up and getting services might make them money. Just saying. . .

How much money did those industries put into trying to derail this BS??? not much imo..it was a win win for them I think...should have seen this coming and invested accordingly...wonder where our esteemed elected officials money is invested??? HMMMMMMMM

[LaughingCat]

The health care industry always straddles the fence. They gave to McCain and Obama. They gave to Hillary, Edwards, everyone. They just don't want you to truly ruffle anything up.

Even if the public option comes into play later in the year, they'll all make plenty. The private insurance companies will have to drop their premium amounts and take everyone. They'll still make a mint. Remember, you dont have to make much off each person when you make a killing off everyone. Their model is involuntarily being changes from gouge the few to profit hevily off the many.

The peasants are upset about HCR. But the Kings are all fine and they will be fine.

[LaughingCat]

Before this thread dies, I just wanted to say that I am glad we had a civil discussion about a heated topic. This is a major improvement over times past.

[catastrophe]

Before this thread dies, I just wanted to say that I am glad we had a civil discussion about a heated topic. This is a major improvement over times past.


Perfect acknowledgement !!!!!!!!!!!!

Glad you noticed too.:USA::USA:

[phragle]

The private insurance companies will have to drop their premium amounts and take everyone. .


I saw plenty about having to offer insurance to everybody and not denying pre-existing conditions... It may be in there somewhere, but I saw nothing about not being able to charge out the azz for it. Sure we will cover your obese diabetic azz...just $999 a month....

[fund razor]

I saw plenty about having to offer insurance to everybody and not denying pre-existing conditions... It may be in there somewhere, but I saw nothing about not being able to charge out the azz for it. Sure we will cover your obese diabetic azz...just $999 a month....

Did you catch the part about the increasingly graduated fines for people who are uninsured?

[LaughingCat]

I saw plenty about having to offer insurance to everybody and not denying pre-existing conditions... It may be in there somewhere, but I saw nothing about not being able to charge out the azz for it. Sure we will cover your obese diabetic azz...just $999 a month....

I don't know about specific language. But there are two things to consider. One is that the HCR legislation removed the decades-old exemption for insurance companies from the Federal Anti-trust laws. This eans that any unfair or anti-competitve practices (like the insurance companies colluding to fix prices) is illegal. So fair competition will likely drive them down.

The second, and many of you may not want to hear this, is that the Dems are whispering about bringing back the public option at a later date, probably after the mid-term elections when they see if they still can do it. If customers have a government option with a reasonable price, then insurance companies will have to compete for the lion's share. Otherwise, if they focus only on the wealthier customers who buy Cadillac plans, they will turn into much smaller, regional type insurance companies and lose size and clout.

I'm not telling you how I necessarily want it, but this looks like the most realistic outcome on the horizon.

[fund razor]

I remember when I thought that all of the people in the 60s were cool. They fought the establishment..."the man."
I ate that up when I was young. Hippies like the bomb throwing Bill Ayers and the weather underground, Cloward and Pivens who wanted to collapse the system by getting people on welfare. The SDS. Dangerous, drug-fueled, Marxists.

Now that these same former radicals are the man, and have become the inner circle to the president... I am scared as phuck of them.

[phragle]

I remember when I thought that all of the people in the 60s were cool. They fought the establishment..."the man."
I ate that up when I was young. Hippies like the bomb throwing Bill Ayers and the weather underground, Cloward and Pivens who wanted to collapse the system by getting people on welfare. The SDS. Dangerous, drug-fueled, Marxists.

Now that these same former radicals are the man, and have become the inner circle to the president... I am scared as phuck of them.


Now you know what happens long term when you eat too much acid.......

[LotoSteve]

I remember when I thought that all of the people in the 60s were cool. They fought the establishment..."the man."
I ate that up when I was young. Hippies like the bomb throwing Bill Ayers and the weather underground, Cloward and Pivens who wanted to collapse the system by getting people on welfare. The SDS. Dangerous, drug-fueled, Marxists.

Now that these same former radicals are the man, and have become the inner circle to the president... I am scared as phuck of them.

I thought they were cool because of all the puzzy they were getting. And you have to admit, the best Rock & Roll came out of th 60's.

[phragle]

Stippers are more fun to do than hippie chicks, but they both will give you a headache if you have to talk to them for an extended time.

[phragle]

Let me get this straight. The new health care plan will be written by a committee whose Chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress which hasn't read it, signed by a President who smokes, funded by a Treasury Sec. who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a Surgeon General who is obese, and financed... by a....... country that is nearly broke. What could possibly go wrong?

[LaughingCat]

And you have to admit, the best Rock & Roll came out of th 60's.

I admit it

[Ratickle]

Let me get this straight. The new health care plan will be written by a committee whose Chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress which hasn't read it, signed by a President who smokes, funded by a Treasury Sec. who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a Surgeon General who is obese, and financed... by a....... country that is nearly broke. What could possibly go wrong?

Sounds like a good plan to me.......:sifone:

[Ratickle]

The second, and many of you may not want to hear this, is that the Dems are whispering about bringing back the public option at a later date, probably after the mid-term elections when they see if they still can do it. If customers have a government option with a reasonable price, then insurance companies will have to compete for the lion's share. Otherwise, if they focus only on the wealthier customers who buy Cadillac plans, they will turn into much smaller, regional type insurance companies and lose size and clout.

There will be nothing but a government plan in the end the way the bill is written. No company can afford to pay an additional 40% on their health care plans. McDonalds has figured an additional $7500 for every store. Catepillar has estimated $100,000,000 annual cost increases. My wifes company has already sent out the notice theirs will be changed, (I read cancelled), because of the 40% penalty they would have to pay.

The government has taken over, (Seized?), 51% of the private sector since November of 2008. They have most of what they want. We are officially a socialist country now by the description I was taught in school.:(:mad::(

[phragle]

Joe McCarthy for president, J. Edgar Hoover for VP.... or is all hope gone?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Is_this_tomorrow.jpg/414px-Is_this_tomorrow.jpg

[Tommy Gun]

Before this thread dies, I just wanted to say that I am glad we had a civil discussion about a heated topic. This is a major improvement over times past.

F.O. :sifone:

[Tommy Gun]

I don't know about specific language. But there are two things to consider. One is that the HCR legislation removed the decades-old exemption for insurance companies from the Federal Anti-trust laws. This eans that any unfair or anti-competitve practices (like the insurance companies colluding to fix prices) is illegal. So fair competition will likely drive them down.

The second, and many of you may not want to hear this, is that the Dems are whispering about bringing back the public option at a later date, probably after the mid-term elections when they see if they still can do it. If customers have a government option with a reasonable price, then insurance companies will have to compete for the lion's share. Otherwise, if they focus only on the wealthier customers who buy Cadillac plans, they will turn into much smaller, regional type insurance companies and lose size and clout.

I'm not telling you how I necessarily want it, but this looks like the most realistic outcome on the horizon.

Duh, we all knew this was phase 1.

[LaughingCat]

ha

[Fanatic]

Have you ever had to make a course correction while boating because of unforeseen circumstances? Nitpickers. :smash:

Hey, whatever happened to those WMD's?I don't know ask these guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwqh4wQPoQk

Hint: Bush didn't lie we went to war based soley on the 15 intel agencies intel and the NIE. Oh and 109 democrats agreed and voted for the Iraq resolution based on that same intel.

Oh and WMD's?


Wall Street Journal
October 14, 2004
After the release of the Iraq Survey Group's Duelfer report, the headlines blazed "No WMD Found." Most stories continued by saying that Iraq did not constitute an imminent threat to the U.S. and thus the U.S. was wrong to eliminate that threat. This reflects the notion that Iraq was only a threat if it had military munitions filled with WMD. The claim "Iraq was not an imminent threat" was also expounded by pundits that seemingly crawled out of the woodwork as well as those opposed to President Bush. But have these individuals read carefully the report before engaging in such anti-Bush rhetoric?

While no facilities were found producing chemical or biological agents on a large scale, many clandestine laboratories operating under the Iraqi Intelligence Services were found to be engaged in small-scale production of chemical nerve agents, sulfur mustard, nitrogen mustard, ricin, aflatoxin, and other unspecified biological agents. These laboratories were also evaluating whether various poisons would change the texture, smell or appearance of foodstuffs. These aspects of the ISG report have been ignored by the pundits and press. Did these constitute an imminent threat? Perhaps it depends how you define "threat."

The chemical section reports that the M16 Directorate "had a plan to produce and weaponize nitrogen mustard in rifle grenades and a plan to bottle sarin and sulfur mustard in perfume sprayers and medicine bottles which they would ship to the United States and Europe." Are we to believe this plan existed because they liked us? Or did they wish to do us harm? The major threat posed by Iraq, in my opinion, was the support it gave to terrorists in general, and its own terrorist activity.

The ISG was also told that "ricin was being developed into stable liquid to deliver as an aerosol" in various munitions. Such development was not just for assassination. If Iraq was successful in developing an aerosolizable ricin, it made a significant step forward. The development had to be for terrorist delivery. Even on a small scale this must be considered as a WMD.

Biological agents, delivered on a small scale (terrorist delivery) can maim or kill a large number of people. The Iraqi Intelligence organizations had a history of conducting tests on humans with chemical and biological substances that went beyond assassination studies. While many of these were in the 1970s and 1980s, multiple documents and testimony indicate that such testing continued through the 1990s and into the next millennium, perhaps as late as 2002. Do we wait until such weapons are used against our domestic population before we act? Is that the way that some people wish to have the U.S. protected from terrorist activity?

It is asserted that Iraq was not supporting terrorists. Really? Documentation indicates that Iraq was training non-Iraqis at Salman Pak in terrorist techniques, including assassination and suicide bombing. In addition to Iraqis, trainees included Palestinians, Yemenis, Saudis, Lebanese, Egyptians and Sudanese.

As for the U.N. inspection system preventing such R&D, why did Iraq not declare these clandestine laboratories to Unscom and Unmovic and why did these inspection agencies not discover these laboratories? Might it have been that there were multiple informants working inside Unscom and Unmovic that kept the Iraqi Intelligence Service informed as to what sites were to be inspected? Information collected by ISG indicates that this was the case. In late 2002 and early 2003, equipment and materials were removed from several sites 24 hours before U.N. inspections. Such informants were said to be active since 1993. Ergo, no surprise inspections.

Furthermore, sanctions were rapidly eroding. Unscom was aware of this erosion but not to the degree that apparently developed post 1998. The accounts of bribery of officials from several countries that were pushing for lifting or weakening sanctions are legend and have been extensively reported this past week. Inspections can not be effective without the full support of the U.N. Security Council. Such full support did not exist from late 1996 onward. Perhaps, now we know why. Iraq exploited the power of wealth in the form of oil to buy influence in the Security Council and within governments throughout the World. This has now been well documented.

Was Iraq an imminent threat? With the regime's intention and the activity of its intelligence organizations, and with the proven futility of uncovering its clandestine laboratory operations by the U.N. inspectors, it is hard to draw any other conclusion. Regretfully, terrorism is the wave of the future. The report by Charles Duelfer is unclassified and makes very interesting reading for those who really want to know. For those with a closed mind, it will be a waste of time.

Mr. Spertzel, head of the biological-weapons section of Unscom from 1994-99, just returned from Iraq, where he has been a member of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG).

[Buoy]

Hi Fanatic, welcome to the board.

What kind of boat are you running?:rolleyes:

[Bobcat]

A rational boat !And he is not swayed by pedophiles and their handlers;)