My reality based approach to healthcare....

[phragle]

Healthcare is a quality of life issue. Once we are born, we have life, there is no guaranty of the quality of that life. The quality of life is what we make it. By nature, the only universal law, the fittest survive, the weakest perish. This promotes evolution and prevents overpopulation. Those successful in life can make choices that provide themselves with Healthcare improving the quality of their life.

If we somehow perfected Healthcare, curing cancer, obesity and all the other maladies of life and provided it to all, fed and provided for all the poor and starving on the planet... Just what would that do to the human race? The population would grow uncontrollably. The earths resources would be depleted, crime would soar and unemployment would be rampant.

Universal Healthcare is not a birthright, it is a privilege that is earned. Paid for with intelligence and hard work. While this is not the popular lovey dovey answer, it is reality.

For me, I am currently without healthcare. That decision, while being a gamble, was made as I pursue an education that will provide me with healthcare and a better quality of life in the future.

[Chris]

The elephant in the room on healthcare has nothing to do with the system that delivers that care to our citizens. To use a very tired expression, "We've met the enemy and it is us".

As long as we look to medicine for our well being, we'll spend alot for it and we'll never really get it. Personal behavior is at the root of this problem. And it's responsible for a huge percentage of cost. As long as people continue to over-indulge and take no action to improve their state of health, our health care system hasn't a prayer of keeping up.

[Boss460]

The elephant in the room on healthcare has nothing to do with the system that delivers that care to our citizens. To use a very tired expression, "We've met the enemy and it is us".

As long as we look to medicine for our well being, we'll spend alot for it and we'll never really get it. Personal behavior is at the root of this problem. And it's responsible for a huge percentage of cost. As long as people continue to over-indulge and take no action to improve their state of health, our health care system hasn't a prayer of keeping up.

Haha. I noticed your avatar and imagined John Belushi saying this. :rofl:

[MacGyver]

Haha. I noticed your avatar and imagined John Belushi saying this. :rofl:

I'm more used to Belushi like this :D

V8lT1o0sDwI

[Bobcat]

Thank goodness for abortion

[Tony]

Thank goodness for abortion

There are plenty of hard working tax paying "contributors" who have the desire to reproduce and raise the next generation of contributors that can not do it biologically. My wife's parents are a textbook example.:)

[saber28]

Healthcare is a quality of life issue. Once we are born, we have life, there is no guaranty of the quality of that life. The quality of life is what we make it. By nature, the only universal law, the fittest survive, the weakest perish. This promotes evolution and prevents overpopulation. Those successful in life can make choices that provide themselves with Healthcare improving the quality of their life.

If we somehow perfected Healthcare, curing cancer, obesity and all the other maladies of life and provided it to all, fed and provided for all the poor and starving on the planet... Just what would that do to the human race? The population would grow uncontrollably. The earths resources would be depleted, crime would soar and unemployment would be rampant.

Universal Healthcare is not a birthright, it is a privilege that is earned. Paid for with intelligence and hard work. While this is not the popular lovey dovey answer, it is reality.

For me, I am currently without healthcare. That decision, while being a gamble, was made as I pursue an education that will provide me with healthcare and a better quality of life in the future.

yes , you really need an education. you are a

[phragle]

yes , you really need an education. you are a

If you wish to debate the issue, by all means bring it. My ideas are open to debate, my character is not.

[saber28]

Healthcare is a quality of life issue. Once we are born, we have life, there is no guaranty of the quality of that life. The quality of life is what we make it. By nature, the only universal law, the fittest survive, the weakest perish. This promotes evolution and prevents overpopulation. Those successful in life can make choices that provide themselves with Healthcare improving the quality of their life.

If we somehow perfected Healthcare, curing cancer, obesity and all the other maladies of life and provided it to all, fed and provided for all the poor and starving on the planet... Just what would that do to the human race? The population would grow uncontrollably. The earths resources would be depleted, crime would soar and unemployment would be rampant.

Universal Healthcare is not a birthright, it is a privilege that is earned. Paid for with intelligence and hard work. While this is not the popular lovey dovey answer, it is reality.

For me, I am currently without healthcare. That decision, while being a gamble, was made as I pursue an education that will provide me with healthcare and a better quality of life in the future.

where to even begin. a simple fact is the better educated, wealthier, and healthier people are the LESS they reproduce.

so if you lose your job and health insurance, and get sick, you should die because obviously you are stupid and lazy.

you are only one accident or illness away from financial ruin, does that occur to you? i'm sure you will not burden the rest of us by going to the emergency room when you don't have insurance, will you?

[Chris]

Saber-

I know you're new so there's some slack being cut here.

We don't do that here. You have an intellecual argument? Have at it. Teach Rob and the rest of us something. Rip whoever you like to shreds with intellect and wit. But we're polite and respectful here.

If by chance you see people name-calling and such, it'll only be because they're good friends playing around.

As we like to say, this is our living room. All of ours. And you probably wouldn't go to your neighbors house and call one of his friends a name simply because he expressed an opinion. It's no different here.

[phragle]

If you lose your job and insurance, you have the option of cobra. If you choose not to purchase it, then insurance is not as high on your priority list as other things. You have made a choice and are subject to the consequences of your actions.







so if you lose your job and health insurance, and get sick, you should die because obviously you are stupid and lazy.

you are only one accident or illness away from financial ruin, does that occur to you? I'm sure you will not burden the rest of us by going to the emergency room when you don't have insurance, will you?

True, I have made the decision to fore go insurance at the moment while I am in school. I do however have friends that are doctors and nurses, I also work at a hospital, so I do have access to limited healthcare out of friendship and professional courtesy. As far as coverage for a more catastrophic illness or injury, I would either be dead or paying medical bills instead of buying a new boat when I graduate. Financial ruin? I was a medic for years... At $10 an hour I had no financial stability to begin with, and my back is shot from carrying 500 pound people up and down stairs. I made the decision to go to school for a career in a relatively recession proof field that would provide me with a stable secure financial income including health insurance as I get older and much more likely to need it. This was my decision and I am quite capable of being responsible enough to accept the consequences.

As far as stupid and lazy? I work, I go to a difficult school full time, I have all but given up having a life to achieve my goals. I work as an aide in a hospital wiping asses to put myself through school. If someone is unemployed, and chooses to watch Oprah instead of job searching and improving their skill set or accepting a job that is 'beneath' them, why should my tax dollars provide them with insurance?

In short, I am intelligent and motivated for success. If one is not intelligent nor motivated, the chlorine in the gene pool should take care of them, not tax dollars. Right wrong or indifferent that is my opinion.

It's human nature to be 'charitable' towards your fellow man. I was a volunteer firefighter for years, I volunteered on a search and rescue team for years, I currently volunteer my medical skills at races. If a man wants to help his fellow man thats his decision. It is NOT the job of the government to subsidize and legislate Darwinism out of existance.

I have no problem helping my fellow man to his feet, I do have a problem with carrying people thru life. The decision on who I help should be my decision, not the governments. Is it not enough that my tax dollars are allready providing foodstamps to the poor, providing housing to the poor, providing healthcare to the poor, providing cellphones to the poor, providing spending money to the poor? Should my tax dollars really go to subsidizing healthcare for able bodied Americans?? What next? government subsidized cars and gas cards? Government subsidized cable tv?

I must admit, i really don't undertsand the point your are trying to make here
where to even begin. a simple fact is the better educated, wealthier, and healthier people are the LESS they reproduce Are you saying we should support high school dropout, drug addicted and obese people in their quest to multiply like rabbits? Or are you saying that its a bad thing that educated, employed, healthy people make a decision about family size that is inline with their resources and lifestyle? Or possibly that if we simply give everyone a college degree, money and healthcare, that it will equate to fewer OctoMom's and knocked up crack whores? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, Subsidizing and surrounding him with 400 cases of Aquafina is not going to make him any more likely to drink.




Disclaimer: this entire reply was done entirely with free thinking from my own mind. There is no cut and paste. :sifone:

[phragle]

There are plenty of hard working tax paying "contributors" who have the desire to reproduce and raise the next generation of contributors that can not do it biologically. My wife's parents are a textbook example.:)


And for their efforts, they were rewarded with a binge drinking powerboater who frolics with penguins.... :cheers2:

[MarylandMark]

badda-bing!

I still think every one should be covered to some extent for catastrophic events. $146/mo per our resident health insurance SME (subject matter expert), in this example only; your results may vary:

http://seriousoffshore.com/forums/showpost.php?p=414165&postcount=28

My soon to be wife is a Nurse Practitioner and I do the computer system and phones for her boss. I don't need health care for a runny nose, she treats me or he does or whatever for free. I do need it in case some thing serious happens.

[Chris]

The argument on the other side is that normally healthy people will begin to neglect things like basic checkups. Perfectly healthy women who take good care of themselves still succumb to things like breast cancer. If you've got to shell out $800 bucks out of your own pocket every year, I wonder how many people will just skip it and end up with a lethal disease as a result?

[Wrinkleface]

If you wish to debate the issue, by all means bring it. My ideas are open to debate, my character is not.

U have no character, U proved that a the OOL party!!!:eek::bump::leaving:

[Chris]

U have no character, U proved that a the OOL party!!!:eek::bump::leaving:

In the words of Winston Wolf, ""You have charachter?? You ARE a charachter."

[Davidmnc]

In the world we live in today health care is a real problem for real people. I can relate to Rob's position. In December of 2008 I was a sales and F&I consultant with a mid sized RV dealer in eastern NC. Facing very difficult times my employer made the decision to discontinue health insurance for his staff. Having never lived a day with out health insurance my first reaction was to go out and buy health insurance for my family. What an eye opener that was! It was just too much. I could not afford to do it. So after much debate we opted to go with out until things got better. Well things did not get much better in 2009, so I did the only thing we knew to do. Find a new employer. After a lengthy search I landed in Claremont NC at a MUCH larger RV dealership with full benefits and an over all better situation for my family. But I went a full year with out health insurance. When my kids were sick, they saw the doctor. When my wife was sick, she saw the doctor. We paid out of our pocket. Thank GOD nothing major happened. My point is these things happen every day to people who had no idea just a few years ago that they were vulnerable. So do not judge Rob. He has taken an educated risk for a better future. I consider him my friend, and he has my support. Good luck Rob and thank you for sharing your story.

[Birdog]

If you lose your job and insurance, you have the option of cobra. If you choose not to purchase it, then insurance is not as high on your priority list as other things. You have made a choice and are subject to the consequences of your actions.








True, I have made the decision to fore go insurance at the moment while I am in school. I do however have friends that are doctors and nurses, I also work at a hospital, so I do have access to limited healthcare out of friendship and professional courtesy. As far as coverage for a more catastrophic illness or injury, I would either be dead or paying medical bills instead of buying a new boat when I graduate. Financial ruin? I was a medic for years... At $10 an hour I had no financial stability to begin with, and my back is shot from carrying 500 pound people up and down stairs. I made the decision to go to school for a career in a relatively recession proof field that would provide me with a stable secure financial income including health insurance as I get older and much more likely to need it. This was my decision and I am quite capable of being responsible enough to accept the consequences.

As far as stupid and lazy? I work, I go to a difficult school full time, I have all but given up having a life to achieve my goals. I work as an aide in a hospital wiping asses to put myself through school. If someone is unemployed, and chooses to watch Oprah instead of job searching and improving their skill set or accepting a job that is 'beneath' them, why should my tax dollars provide them with insurance?

In short, I am intelligent and motivated for success. If one is not intelligent nor motivated, the chlorine in the gene pool should take care of them, not tax dollars. Right wrong or indifferent that is my opinion.

It's human nature to be 'charitable' towards your fellow man. I was a volunteer firefighter for years, I volunteered on a search and rescue team for years, I currently volunteer my medical skills at races. If a man wants to help his fellow man thats his decision. It is NOT the job of the government to subsidize and legislate Darwinism out of existance.

I have no problem helping my fellow man to his feet, I do have a problem with carrying people thru life. The decision on who I help should be my decision, not the governments. Is it not enough that my tax dollars are allready providing foodstamps to the poor, providing housing to the poor, providing healthcare to the poor, providing cellphones to the poor, providing spending money to the poor? Should my tax dollars really go to subsidizing healthcare for able bodied Americans?? What next? government subsidized cars and gas cards? Government subsidized cable tv?

I must admit, i really don't undertsand the point your are trying to make here Are you saying we should support high school dropout, drug addicted and obese people in their quest to multiply like rabbits? Or are you saying that its a bad thing that educated, employed, healthy people make a decision about family size that is inline with their resources and lifestyle? Or possibly that if we simply give everyone a college degree, money and healthcare, that it will equate to fewer OctoMom's and knocked up crack whores? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, Subsidizing and surrounding him with 400 cases of Aquafina is not going to make him any more likely to drink.




Disclaimer: this entire reply was done entirely with free thinking from my own mind. There is no cut and paste. :sifone:


I agree with just about everything you are saying but, I have to point out that YOUR choice to not buy Health Ins is a gamble with MY money as well as yours. God forbid something bad happens to you but, You have to see that tax dollars will pay to make you better.

[phragle]

I agree with just about everything you are saying but, I have to point out that YOUR choice to not buy Health Ins is a gamble with MY money as well as yours. God forbid something bad happens to you but, You have to see that tax dollars will pay to make you better.

Its a gamble with my money and my future. I would wind up with a pretty good sized bill that would take me a fair amount of time to pay off. So I would be paying my bill plus intrest. How is that your money?

[Chris]

I would wind up with a pretty good sized bill that would take me a fair amount of time to pay off. So I would be paying my bill plus intrest. How is that your money?

Unfortunately, that's not the reality of healthcare today. The bill doesn't get paid in most cases. There's no sense wasting the resources on chasing individuals without assets. If you're a renter driving a 10-year-old car, the hospital spending ten grand (more) to get a wholly uncollectable judgment isn't a wise investment.

And as far as paying off a large bill...

A few years ago my father had a severe headache. He went to the local hospital. A few hours and an expensive helicopter ride later he was in a major medical center in an induced coma in the ICU, being treated for an aneurism. He was there for three weeks and another in step-down. Another month of in-patient therapy ensued. His total bill was almost $650K. His out-of-pocket was $100. He was 71 and had under $100K in total assets. Even if he wanted to, there's no conceivable way for him to pay that bill.

Let's take a different test case. Let's say you're 30 and single. You've got a good job- making $50K a year. You've got rent and food and such. But if you save not a nickle for your future and if you cut out the unnecesary, you can scrape up 10 grand a year to put towards your life-saving $650,000.00 medical procedure. So if you can do that for the next 65 years and the hospital is willing to carry your debt for 2/3rds of a century interest-free, you'll have them paid off. Or you can just do what everyone else does- you go bankrupt and your new life starts next Monday.

Hospitals aren't banks. They have to pay the doctors, nurses and other staff on Friday and they have to pay for the building and the light bill just like everyone else. But unlike the mechaic down the street that will push your broken Chrysler to the curb if you can't afford that transmission rebuild, our medical system won't deposit you on the streetcorner to die from a cerebral hemmorhage.

[phragle]

A very valid point, but that brings and entirely new perspective to look at. With the astronimcal cost of healthcare and the fact that as a person ages, sooner or later they will have a heart attack, a stroke, cancer etc.. Thats basically inevitable. Its not like auto insurance, or home owners insurance, where its a calculated risk for the insurance company that you wont have an accident or your house will burn down. If healthcare has become so expensive that the average person has no real ability to pay for it and relies on a 3rd party to pay enormous bills when they eventually inccur them, how is it feasible for the 3rd party to exist long term? Or is implosion emminent?

[Chris]

With the astronimcal cost of healthcare and the fact that as a person ages, sooner or later they will have a heart attack, a stroke, cancer etc.. Thats basically inevitable.

Not necessarily. many people live long, issue-free lives. But that's going to begin trending downward. We're too dependent as a society on our health care system bailing us out from failures in our own personal responsibilities. we don't have the resources anymore to buy our way into long life. People are going to have to take better care of themselves and not depend on modern medicine to give them eight and nine decade lifespans.

The world of the 50's, 60's and 70's is gone. There's just not enough to spread around anymore. We no longer feed and equip the whole world. Other countries have caught up.

[mustang]

Reading this thread I believe valid points have been made regarding the expense of health care and the average persons inability to pay the sometimes astronomic costs. However, what I think is missing is WHY health care costs so much. Let's face it....that is a large part of the reason why this is such a hot button issue. Things have a way of becoming important when the costs become out of reach. WHY are the doctors charging so much. WHY are the insurance companies charging so much. Is it purely profit based? I don't think so. Is there a significant problem in this country with our lack of tort reform. In my opinion....yes. Today, we have become such a litigous society and we will sue a Dr. or hospital for millions of dollars for something that may just not be warranted. To validate my argument with example...I live in Chicago and read last month in the Tribune about a woman who had gone to Ghana on a humanitarian trip to render aid to the underprivileged. This woman was educated and employed as a nurse. She was advised to take the anti-malaria meds prior to her trip but in the article she admitted that she chose not to because she didn't want to deal with the side effects of nasuea and upset stomach. Photos taken of her in Ghana show her walking around in a t-shirt and shorts as opposed to a long sleeve shirt and pants to limit the skin exposure. Once she returned she felt ill. She waited 2 weeks to go to the DR. (remember that she is a nurse) She presented herself to Northwestern where she was diagnosed with malaria. As a result of the infection she lost her arms at the elbows and legs at the knees. It is a travesty and I wouldn't want to wish this fate upon my worst enemy. However, she has now filed suit against Northwestern for several millions of dollars indicating that they were negligent in not treating her aggressively enough (even though they gave her the anti malaria meds typical of treatment for this disease) and that is why she lost her limbs. Perhaps her decision to not take the meds before her trip, walk around in shorts and wait 2 weeks after returning ill from a 3rd world country. What I'm getting at here is a strong contributing factor as to why our health care costs are so high is because people file lawsuits for insane amounts of money in several unwarranted situations. Insurance companies have to pay out on these lawsuits because there is no tort reform. The insurance company has to increase the costs of their medical malpractice premiums. The Dr. has to raise his charges to accommodate that premium cost. Those charges are passed onto the patient and ultimately the insurance company. I don't pretend to think that this is the only issue but I do think it is a strong contributing factor.

[Chris]

The issue with health care is MANY things. There is no single magic problem. Tort reform is one. But there's no "aha!" moment to be found in the whole mess. There are many inefficiencies. And sometimes there just isn't any efficient way to rid the inefficiencies- the cure hurts worse than the pain, sop to speak. We could cure many of these problems, but the cure ends up costing more than the ill.

There is one overwhelming flaw in our healthcare system- OVERUSE.

We place too much of a demand on the system. The population uses more than we are capable of paying for.

[phragle]

There is one overwhelming flaw in our healthcare system- OVERUSE.

We place too much of a demand on the system. The population uses more than we are capable of paying for.

This basically sums up what I stated in my initial post..


Healthcare is a quality of life issue. Once we are born, we have life, there is no guaranty of the quality of that life. The quality of life is what we make it. By nature, the only universal law, the fittest survive, the weakest perish. This promotes evolution and prevents overpopulation. Those successful in life can make choices that provide themselves with Healthcare improving the quality of their life.



Somewhere a line has to be drawn. Whether its basic stabilizaition and pallative care for the masses and more advanced care for those with the resources to obtain it, or something else... Healthcare is a quality of life issue. A persons quality of life should be dependent on that persons motivation and resources to improve their quality of life.

[Davidmnc]

Somewhere a line has to be drawn. Whether its basic stabilizaition and pallative care for the masses and more advanced care for those with the resources to obtain it, or something else... Healthcare is a quality of life issue. A persons quality of life should be dependent on that persons motivation and resources to improve their quality of life.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

I think we can all agree health insurance is extremely important for every one, but until the cost of health care is better controlled. It is just going to get more difficult for the average person to afford. And as long as people are aloud to use emergency rooms for their primary care physicians, the cost are going to continue to be out of site.

[jmoore32fever]

Phragle I appraise your choice to better yourself & take the risk of no health insurance... My GF who is 25 has chose to do the same thing in the past year for the same intentions as you to pursue becoming an RN... What I don't understand is people compainig about there tax $$$ possibly having to go towards someone like you or my GF because something catastrophic happened... I'm more then willing to help others who are not as fortunate as me that will @ least try & better themselves & in general make the world a better place to live....

What p*sses me off is paying for deadbeats who are perfectly able to work & choose not to because the goverment will give them all they want out of life from my tax $$$$ My GF works as a medical assitant @ a place similiar to an urgent care & It is also a doctors office... Some of the stories she tells, absolutely just floor me... People my age & younger (25) coming in that have never worked a day in there life & bragging how they never will on disability & pain meds with no logical proof that there is Even anything actually wrong with them, situtations like this are just the tip of the iceberg.

I hate paying taxes just as much as the next person, but in the end I think about people in situations like my GF, phragle & others who are trying to do the right thing, I can't believe some people on here are actually givng him a hard time & cutting him down for his choices.... Most on here make substantionally(sp?) more money than I & I am proud to live in a country that takes my tax dollars to help these kind of people in the event something goes wrong that they could not control.... The problem is not helping these people but giving our tax dollars to people like I mentioned above

[Birdog]

Phragle I appraise your choice to better yourself & take the risk of no health insurance... My GF who is 25 has chose to do the same thing in the past year for the same intentions as you to pursue becoming an RN... What I don't understand is people compainig about there tax $$$ possibly having to go towards someone like you or my GF because something catastrophic happened... I'm more then willing to help others who are not as fortunate as me that will @ least try & better themselves & in general make the world a better place to live....



Perhaps you can start helping by giving your GF 50 bucks a week to buy Catastophic Ins ?

[boostbros]

well theres 2 roads here with a huge difference theres a lot of us that fired our insurance co because of how bad modern medical and the drug companys have gotten i am pretty sure in a hundred years they will look back at how people were tortured with chemo and radiation and drugs that are toxic where the road has divided is as a group we are in much better health and manage our own care it really is very easy to learn, while the rest of my neighborhood brags about their goldplated health plans they don,t have to eat healthy or take care of their body because they can let someone else take care of it! i think the problem IS insurance let me throw out here you have a very expensive exotic car if you insure it for more than it worth you can abuse it and trash it or take extreme risk now try that with out insuring the car i will bet you are more respectful and take better care of it!

[jmoore32fever]

Birdog $200 a month, $2400 a year for just in case something severe happens? That in the end she would be paying on for the rest of her life regardless of if she had that insurance or not, becuase that $50 a week insurance wouldn't be worth a damn anyhow, & when her time was up tax dollars would still have to pay for it? Ya that makes good sense....

Quite honestly I'd like to put her on my insurance, been together 4yrs but because we are not legally married I can't.....

[DonziGirl]

And for their efforts, they were rewarded with a binge drinking powerboater who frolics with penguins.... :cheers2:

Thanks for your high opinion of me :cuss:

[DonziGirl]

Thank goodness for abortion

Whether or not you are pro-life or pro-choice this isn't something to take lightly.

I won't get into a debate about it but you should be thankful that your mother didn't decide to go that route

[phragle]

Thanks for your high opinion of me :cuss:

Donzi.. I did NOT call you a Penguin......

[Birdog]

Birdog $200 a month, $2400 a year for just in case something severe happens? That in the end she would be paying on for the rest of her life regardless of if she had that insurance or not, becuase that $50 a week insurance wouldn't be worth a damn anyhow, & when her time was up tax dollars would still have to pay for it? Ya that makes good sense....

Quite honestly I'd like to put her on my insurance, been together 4yrs but because we are not legally married I can't.....

For what it's worth, We live in the same area and catastrophic Ins is not bad in Ohio. It doesnt cover hangnails and such but kicks in when the bad crap happens. I had for years with BC/BS

Is she in UCs Nursing program ? I know thats TOUGH !

[jmoore32fever]

She was in Miami's & didn't like the pace that it was going, there's a small basically A community college Bohecker that she is doing now that is strictly just eveything she needs to be an RN is year round & is averaging around 26-28hrs of class a week... I believe her plans are to get her masters @ UC or Miami when she is done with this....

[saber28]

[QUOTE=phragle;459860]Healthcare is a quality of life issue. Once we are born, we have life, there is no guaranty of the quality of that life. The quality of life is what we make it. By nature, the only universal law, the fittest survive, the weakest perish. This promotes evolution and prevents overpopulation. Those successful in life can make choices that provide themselves with Healthcare improving the quality of their life.

If we somehow perfected Healthcare, curing cancer, obesity and all the other maladies of life and provided it to all, fed and provided for all the poor and starving on the planet... Just what would that do to the human race? The population would grow uncontrollably. The earths resources would be depleted, crime would soar and unemployment would be rampant.

Universal Healthcare is not a birthright, it is a privilege that is earned. Paid for with intelligence and hard work. While this is not the popular lovey dovey answer, it is reality.


assuming you define successful as wealth, are you saying a wealthy wall street banker deserves better health care than a janitor? so people should live or die based upon their income? everyone is happy that you are trying to improve your situation, and i wish more people would, but many people might find themselves in a situation beyond there control and with out health care, according to your logic they should not get any care?

[Ratickle]

I think people have to make choices. The janitor to choose to buy a boat, new car, big screen color tv, or health care. It's the choices we make with our money that decides what, and when, something happens to us. I do not believe everyone has the right to have a heart transplant at age 80 or a new hip at 95. These are practices which keep driving up the cost of health care for all of us and have taken it out of the realm of reality.

The proposed new health care plan will effectively do away with company provided health care within a few years. It will also make it so everyone has the exact same coverage whether you have a job, take personal care of yourself, take drugs, overeat, drink excessively, or not. I do not believe that is the correct plan to follow.

My wifes company has already sent out the letter her health care will be eliminated if the bill passes because they will qualify under the "Cadillac" plan and it would cost the company too much additional money on top of the insurance to provide it (40%). Catapillar has estimated their additional expense at $100 million per year.

You can say what you want about everyone should have the same quality of health care. That is exactly what they have done in numerous other countries where the health care is much worse than ours. Socialism is socialism no matter how you state it. Next it will be that everyone deserves the same quality of car and car insurance? Or house and house insurance? It's been tried many places in the world. It has never succeeded.

[Tommy Gun]

I think people have to make choices. The janitor to choose to buy a boat, new car, big screen color tv, or health care. It's the choices we make with our money that decides what, and when, something happens to us. I do not believe everyone has the right to have a heart transplant at age 80 or a new hip at 95. These are practices which keep driving up the cost of health care for all of us and have taken it out of the realm of reality.

The proposed new health care plan will effectively do away with company provided health care within a few years. It will also make it so everyone has the exact same coverage whether you have a job, take personal care of yourself, take drugs, overeat, drink excessively, or not. I do not believe that is the correct plan to follow.

My wifes company has already sent out the letter her health care will be eliminated if the bill passes because they will qualify under the "Cadillac" plan and it would cost the company too much additional money on top of the insurance to provide it (40%). Catapillar has estimated their additional expense at $100 million per year.

You can say what you want about everyone should have the same quality of health care. That is exactly what they have done in numerous other countries where the health care is much worse than ours. Socialism is socialism no matter how you state it. Next it will be that everyone deserves the same quality of car and car insurance? Or house and house insurance? It's been tried many places in the world. It has never succeeded.

I will wait and see what is in the "final" bill, but I am likely to terminate my companies health insurance benefits as well. I have less than 50 employees so apparently am not subject to a penalty but now that these so called exchanges will be created why should I provide the benefit? My taxes will be going up to pay for this so I need to make that back somehow. This is the reality of what they are doing...this is not health care reform, it is another entitlement that benefits few and creates more deficit spending at a time in which our deficit is already out of control.

I don't care what any supporter says about the CBO score...this is more deficit spending. I don't know how anyone could truthfully say it will reduce the deficit when they are rasing FICA taxes to help pay for this healthcare bill. This just postpones the need to further rework Social Security...which will likely result in less benefits and even more taxes...all for the sake of this healthcare reform bill (in which the lawyers party convienently choose to ignore real tort reform). Next wait and see them pass the $250B "doctors fix" which was not addressed in this bill...than whats next? MORE DEBT AND HIGHER TAXES.

[Ratickle]

I don't care what any supporter says about the CBO score...

The CBO score about deficit reduction includes all of the following increases of taxes. The total is somewhere around a 137 billion deficit reduction with a 550 billion increase in taxes.

Projected revenues from the tax increases over the next decade:

— The new Medicare taxes would raise an estimated $210 billion over the next decade.

— The new tax on high-cost insurance plans, $32 billion.

— A fee on the makers and importers of brand-name drugs, $27 billion.

— An excise tax on the makers and importers of certain medical devices, $20 billion.

— An annual fee on health insurance providers, starting in 2014, $60 billion.

— The repeal of a tax loophole that could allow paper manufacturers to get tax credits for generating alternative fuel in the paper making process, $24 billion.

— Plus a new tax on investments would be on top of capital gains and dividends tax increases already proposed by Obama.

— And the president wants to increase the top tax rate on capital gains and dividends from 15 percent to 20 percent.

[Tommy Gun]

The CBO score about deficit reduction includes all of the following increases of taxes. The total is somewhere around a 137 billion deficit reduction with a 550 billion increase in taxes.

Projected revenues from the tax increases over the next decade:

— The new Medicare taxes would raise an estimated $210 billion over the next decade.

— The new tax on high-cost insurance plans, $32 billion.

— A fee on the makers and importers of brand-name drugs, $27 billion.

— An excise tax on the makers and importers of certain medical devices, $20 billion.

— An annual fee on health insurance providers, starting in 2014, $60 billion.

— The repeal of a tax loophole that could allow paper manufacturers to get tax credits for generating alternative fuel in the paper making process, $24 billion.

— Plus a new tax on investments would be on top of capital gains and dividends tax increases already proposed by Obama.

— And the president wants to increase the top tax rate on capital gains and dividends from 15 percent to 20 percent.



The supporters are a buch of lying bastrds.

[fund razor]

I think that I have a solution. A compromise. Let's do it the new way for a few years, and that way all of these dam chronically ill people will die. Really sick people don't get any investment. This will reduce the load on the system, we can go back to the old way in which the best way to get insurance is to make yourself more employable than the next guy. (You know, the way our dads did it.) Then, when it's all said and done we can make up a lot of extra time by not having to visit the sick so much. We will have a lot of funerals at the front end. But just say that you can't get out of work. I see no flaw in this idea, as it combines the best of both systems.

[saber28]

I think people have to make choices. The janitor to choose to buy a boat, new car, big screen color tv, or health care. It's the choices we make with our money that decides what, and when, something happens to us. I do not believe everyone has the right to have a heart transplant at age 80 or a new hip at 95. These are practices which keep driving up the cost of health care for all of us and have taken it out of the realm of reality.

The proposed new health care plan will effectively do away with company provided health care within a few years. It will also make it so everyone has the exact same coverage whether you have a job, take personal care of yourself, take drugs, overeat, drink excessively, or not. I do not believe that is the correct plan to follow.

My wifes company has already sent out the letter her health care will be eliminated if the bill passes because they will qualify under the "Cadillac" plan and it would cost the company too much additional money on top of the insurance to provide it (40%). Catapillar has estimated their additional expense at $100 million per year.

You can say what you want about everyone should have the same quality of health care. That is exactly what they have done in numerous other countries where the health care is much worse than ours. Socialism is socialism no matter how you state it. Next it will be that everyone deserves the same quality of car and car insurance? Or house and house insurance? It's been tried many places in the world. It has never succeeded.

what makes you assume the janitor bought a new tv or a new car?

i agree with you about procedures at late stages in life, but isn't this your so called "death panels" in action? who decides who gets what! not that easy is it?

[Ratickle]

what makes you assume the janitor bought a new tv or a new car?

i agree with you about procedures at late stages in life, but isn't this your so called "death panels" in action? who decides who gets what! not that easy is it?

Who decides someone else gets to do whatever they want and be supported on my dime? People need to take responsibility for their own lives. Basic health care should be free to everyone, I have zero problem with that. But, expensive procedures like organ and joint replacements should be on a as you can afford basis. If you work for a company that has the benefits to do so, great. Otherwise it's just too bad. And to give a crack-head or herion addict the same coverage under the new plan as a hard-working, lower paid, single mom should be grounds for impeachment.

And you can call the janitor and let me know......

[phragle]

Sabre..with back tracking a page and half to quote you.... The law of natural selection states survival of the fittest. There are plenty of successful people who started poor and thru motivation became successful. Your janitor may be the nicest guy in the world, but he choose to be a $9 an hour janitor. He does not live in the same nieghborhood as a person making 75-100-200k a year.... He may drive a used car, not a new Denali, he may dine on the dollar menu not Ruth Chris...

the desire to have more, the desire to have better drives improvement. Nice house, nice paychecks, nice food, nice vehicles and yes, nice healthcare should be something earned.

Do I somehow think less of the janitor or disrespect him, no. Would I encourage the janitor to strive for more? yes.

[Trim'd Up]

Too bad there is no natural selection in modern society. We wouldn't have the HUGE dependent class we have now if there was. We protect the lazy and unintelligent from themselves on a daily basis only for them to procreate and create more lazy and unintelligent children.

[TCEd]

I think a lot of your opinions will change once you reach the later years and your knees and hips hurt and you're just too old for a replacement procedure.

[Davidmnc]

Thanks for your high opinion of me :cuss:




Donzi.. I did NOT call you a Penguin......

What's wrong with Penguins any way? :cuss:

[phragle]

I think a lot of your opinions will change once you reach the later years and your knees and hips hurt and you're just too old for a replacement procedure.

My Gradfather is in his mid 90's, recently had a fall and broke a hip, had it replaced and is doing great. He choose a carreer in the coastguard which has provided him with good healthcare.

[Ratickle]

I think a lot of your opinions will change once you reach the later years and your knees and hips hurt and you're just too old for a replacement procedure.

If this bill passes it guarantees I won't be able to get those types of procedures done anyway. The system will dole out based on waiting lists, and those who have been on welfare their entire lives will have the exact same opportunity as those who were productive their entire lives. Just look at Canada, France, and England if you want to see the results.

There are already groups of specialists reviewing opening hospitals in Mexico to take care of the influential.

And if you think this is such a good deal, why did Congress exempt themselves???????

[Tommy Gun]

If this bill passes it guarantees I won't be able to get those types of procedures done anyway. The system will dole out based on waiting lists, and those who have been on welfare their entire lives will have the exact same opportunity as those who were productive their entire lives. Just look at Canada, France, and England if you want to see the results.

There are already groups of specialists reviewing opening hospitals in Mexico to take care of the influential.

And if you think this is such a good deal, why did Congress exempt themselves???????

Two words...Costa Rica.

[TCEd]

If this bill passes it guarantees I won't be able to get those types of procedures done anyway. The system will dole out based on waiting lists, and those who have been on welfare their entire lives will have the exact same opportunity as those who were productive their entire lives. Just look at Canada, France, and England if you want to see the results.

There are already groups of specialists reviewing opening hospitals in Mexico to take care of the influential.

And if you think this is such a good deal, why did Congress exempt themselves???????

No I don't necessarly think this is a good plan. My comment is directed at those in this thread that suggest medical care should stop due to age.