oil cooler reccomendations?

[fixxxer22]

I have slightly built up 502. last year when i pulled the engine i had a good ammount of metal in the engine. the cam had 5 flat lobes. i went to change the oil on it and i decided to pull the plug after sucking it down to look at the magnet. it had a good ammount of furry metal on it. last night i tore down the upper engine and inspected the valvetrain. the lifters, pushrods, and rockers looked good. i think i may have metal still in my old oil cooler. i am bringing the boat to work and pulling the engine to inspect the bearings and install a better timing set. if i find nothing wrong i am going to assume it is in the cooler. i just want to replace it with the same tandem oil/ps cooler. any reccomedations on aftermarket replacements?

i tried to flush the cooler last year. and the engine was completely torn down, boiled and bored. i will also do a leakdown check. the metal does not have that bearing material smell.

[YoungPerformance]

Yeah, I would definitely replace that cooler if you think there is any metal in it. It sounds like it since you found it on the magnet. There is no reason to chance it. Whenever I get an engine that has been broken or is on the way out and has put metal in the pan, I pitch the cooler in the trash. For you setup, a cooler from Eddie Marine will work just fine. I use their 3" combo cooler up to about 800 hp and it works great. Been using them for years with no problems. They have them in both bare and chrome plated.
Eddie

[fixxxer22]

Yeah, I would definitely replace that cooler if you think there is any metal in it. It sounds like it since you found it on the magnet. There is no reason to chance it. Whenever I get an engine that has been broken or is on the way out and has put metal in the pan, I pitch the cooler in the trash. For you setup, a cooler from Eddie Marine will work just fine. I use their 3" combo cooler up to about 800 hp and it works great. Been using them for years with no problems. They have them in both bare and chrome plated.
Eddie

when i pull the engine what else should i look for? it runs great and i did a leakdown check middle of last season. all was good. the distributor gear looked good. i am running lunati retrofit roller lifters and they look a little polished but i dont think that is where my metal is comming from. i am going to check the rods and mains. also i have heard that i should have installed a new oil pressure pypass valve due to my new higher pressure higher volume oil pump... am i bypassing my oil filter too much?

[YoungPerformance]

That is quite possible that you are bypassing the filter to much. I just remove the valves and plug the one hole that is off center in the oil filter pad. The other one just stays open.
I would drop the pan and pull a few main and rod caps off to have a look. Obviously, the metal is coming from somewhere. You need to find it. This will give you the chance to clean the pan real good. When bearings are going, they make a ton of metal shavings. With the bypasses opening, that metal just keeps going through the bearings, making more shavings. With everything else showing good, I would put money on it taking a bearing out. Check the rear main bearing thrust face to be sure it is not worn excessively. With the wrong coupler and outdrive input shaft combo, it will tear up the rear main bearings thrust surface. Good luck. Give me a shout if I can help.
Eddie

[fixxxer22]

I was hoping that the engine would not have to make a trip to the machine shop but oh well. I did have a shake when comming down from high speeds. I guess it would not be that bad if the crank is ok. i could just buy another set of bearings and make her work.

I am still a little concerned with the condition of the lifters they are a little rough. I wonder if i have skimped in this section i am running these http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2535&gid=311

I went with them because of cost. But now i am wondering if they are tough enough for my application.

I will keep you posted of what i find and i wil remove the bypass and plug that hole. Is it threadded? do i just insert a pipe plug in it?

[YoungPerformance]

I haven't run those lifters before, so I don't know how good they are and what they can take. All I can say is that I use Morels and they work.
As for the bypass hole, it is not threaded. I tap it with a 1/2" NPT tap and then screw in a plug. You have to tap all the way to the botom of the hole so that the plug will not stick up past the surface. I have seen someone use an expansion plug ( like a freeze plug, or cam plug) that just gets driven in the hole. It looks to be much easier than tapping it. I am not sure of the exact size plug. I will see if I can find out.
Here is a pic of how I do it.

[fixxxer22]

wow! you have alot of info. thank you very much. and pray for me! i will post next week when i get the engine out and torn down.

where can i find morel lifters. cant seem to ind a website.

[Geronimo36]

Kinda weird you wiped out 5 cam lobes with roller lifters and they're still in-tact?

Any copper color metal shavings?

[fixxxer22]

Kinda weird you wiped out 5 cam lobes with roller lifters and they're still in-tact?

Any copper color metal shavings?

No, it was a 502 mag with a hydraulic flat tappet. that zinc is good stuff. was wondering why it kept loosing power and that is when i decides to build it. but currently my cam looks great. i am going to post pictures of the valvetrain on sunday so young performabce can tell me what he thinks of the current lifters.

gotta take care of this now so i can have another fun season. didnt notice the metal until the end of last season. i like to pull my drainplug to inspect the magnet when i change my oil.

[MILD THUNDER]

Damn oils today wreak havoc on flat lifters. I always tried to use oil with high zddp when i ran flat tappets, and tried not idling the boat too much. Where i used to store my boat, it was like a 5 mile idle to where you can get on plane. Used to throw it in nuetral and bring the R's up every so often to splash some oil on the cam.

[MILD THUNDER]

That is quite possible that you are bypassing the filter to much. I just remove the valves and plug the one hole that is off center in the oil filter pad. The other one just stays open.
I would drop the pan and pull a few main and rod caps off to have a look. Obviously, the metal is coming from somewhere. You need to find it. This will give you the chance to clean the pan real good. When bearings are going, they make a ton of metal shavings. With the bypasses opening, that metal just keeps going through the bearings, making more shavings. With everything else showing good, I would put money on it taking a bearing out. Check the rear main bearing thrust face to be sure it is not worn excessively. With the wrong coupler and outdrive input shaft combo, it will tear up the rear main bearings thrust surface. Good luck. Give me a shout if I can help.
Eddie

Eddie, I gotta hand it to you. Your insight and advice on the boards is priceless, and its rare to see a well known builder like yourself help out the do-it-yourselfers on the forums. There have been lots of builders that advertise on the boat forums, but not many who participate much in the tech help like you do. Sorry to get off topic...

[fixxxer22]

Damn oils today wreak havoc on flat lifters. I always tried to use oil with high zddp when i ran flat tappets, and tried not idling the boat too much. Where i used to store my boat, it was like a 5 mile idle to where you can get on plane. Used to throw it in nuetral and bring the R's up every so often to splash some oil on the cam.

That is a good idea.... That cam was sooo bad that i showed it to my guy at the machine shop and he asked to keep it to show people the effects of the new oils of today.

[YoungPerformance]

Eddie, I gotta hand it to you. Your insight and advice on the boards is priceless, and its rare to see a well known builder like yourself help out the do-it-yourselfers on the forums. There have been lots of builders that advertise on the boat forums, but not many who participate much in the tech help like you do. Sorry to get off topic...

Thank you very much. I really appreciate the kind words. I really enjoy helping. I had a lot of help coming up, so I know what it's like to need someone's help that is more knowledgable than you. I didn't have the money to pay someone to fix my stuff, so I had to learn on my own. And I asked many people, many questions. I am just returning the favor.
I try to live by a saying: the true measure of a man is when he helps someone that can't benefit him. I take it as me helping someone that I am pretty sure will never buy anything from me.
Eddie

[YoungPerformance]

Fixxxer, do you have a hyd. roller in it now? Has the flat tappet been replaced by a hyd roller? Did the cam lobes go out last year and you changed the cam and ran it since then? Just trying to get up to speed so we can figure out what is going on.
Eddie

[fixxxer22]

The engine lost the cam and i then decided to go through it. I tore it down and had all new bearings installed and went through it. i installed a hyd roller cam with the retrofit lifters. the cam is a gen 6 and i am running the plate between the cam and sprocket. no button. stock pan, has 500hp intake and carb. crower rockers, rough surfaces removed and gasket matched heads (no flow bench here locally) just made a 500hp. it has a 525efi cam in it.

Eddie, I am going to take some pics of the valvetrain and lifters and post here tommorow.

[fixxxer22]

Actually i will pots pics tonight. I really would like your input more sooner than later Eddie:cheers2:

[YoungPerformance]

No problem. I would be glad to help as much as I can. Post the pics and we can go from there.
Eddie

[jeffswav]

Yeah, I would definitely replace that cooler if you think there is any metal in it. It sounds like it since you found it on the magnet. There is no reason to chance it. Whenever I get an engine that has been broken or is on the way out and has put metal in the pan, I pitch the cooler in the trash. For you setup, a cooler from Eddie Marine will work just fine. I use their 3" combo cooler up to about 800 hp and it works great. Been using them for years with no problems. They have them in both bare and chrome plated.
Eddiex2 that is the one I use.

[fixxxer22]

One of the lifters which i think look ok. mostly focusing on where they ride in their bores.

[fixxxer22]

I pulled the lifters up by the way. I was wondering if the wear on them is normal.

[fixxxer22]

And a quick pic of the cam and its condition

[fixxxer22]

All the rockers felt good and did not show any signs of poor wear. i am thinking at this point i need to get the engine out and take a look at the lower end.

[YoungPerformance]

All the rockers felt good and did not show any signs of poor wear. i am thinking at this point i need to get the engine out and take a look at the lower end.

I agree. Everything looks good so far. Those lifters look like Morels. I know they are put out by Lunati, but they sure look like Morels. Morels builds a ton of lifters for others, so that is probably what they are.
Eddie

[fixxxer22]

Thanks Eddie, I will let you know what i find...

[RMBuilder]

Fixxxer,

The lifters are the Lunati “street roller” lifters manufactured by Morel. The primary use for these is as an OEM replacement. It is hard to assess from these photos, however the scuffing in the skirt area would tend to suggest improper lifter/bore clearance. We do not recommend these lifters in marine applications, particularly with elevated spring force/rates. It also appears you have some possible tracking issues with the lobes; again the photo makes any analysis difficult. If the tracking marks are deep enough to catch a pointed object you may be through the heat treat. Can you list the spring package you are currently using?
Again, from the photos it is hard to assess, however the intake ports appear to have a coating of soot, which would be an indicator of (intake) reversion due to valvetrain instability.

Bob

[YoungPerformance]

I went back and looked at the pics (made them larger, didn't do that the first time) and I see the scuffing on the lifters. You definitely do need to check the clearance between the lifters and their bores. What may also have happened is that the metal shavings in the oil went through the engine oil and caused the scuffing. Once you verify the lifter clearance, we will have a better idea of what caused the scuffing.
Eddie

[Boat1]

If there was residual metal from his last cam failure in the hoses or oil cooler they would be after the filter and sent back into the engine. Since you found metal with a magnet that signals flat tappet cam material before bearing material IMHO. Bearing material is usually more flakey than ground. I'm going by the findings in an Oberg oil pre filter, for example (Found mostely on drag cars and dry sump systems). Maybe the scuffing of the lifters is from old camshaft metal, the lobe sctraches are likely trash related as well. Did you remove all the oil galley plugs and rod them out last time? Specifically the two long passages along the lifter bores.

[fixxxer22]

Yes, my machine shop pulled all plugs and boiled the block. I tried my best to get the lines and cooler flushed with a solvent tank. now it looks like i am paying for it. the cam does look a little rough. i might need to get a package together from rm builder. the springs were installed by my speed shop. he sent me my old ones in a lunati box that the part number no longer existed and was to a flat tapped cam setup. so, i called back and he said he just had that box laying around and he threw my old springs and assured me that they were some brand and were 145 installed (i think). the cam was used out of a 525efi. i am now paying for being cheap. I will have the engine out tonight.

[fixxxer22]

well the rod bearings look ok to good. not the best but not as bad as the mains. there are a couple of heavy grooves that make me upset. there is no bearing material in the pan and that is what the plug looked like every time i changed the oil from about mid season. to now. exactly the same metal content.

[fixxxer22]

The bores looked really good. the crosshatch was in good shape. i plasti-gauged a main and it was at 3 thou. called the speed shp and he said he would have to look up ring gap and bore clearance but it was not bored and those are my factory JE pistons. i think i am going to pull the crank and leave the heads on so i do not have to buy head gaskets again. But now i worry about my awesome blueprinted melling oil pump. will it survive?

[Boat1]

Before you remove the crankshaft check the end play of the crankshaft, look for .005 to .008 play front to back. If you had trashy oil it will show in the main bearings with the rear main likely to be the worst, #1 or front main will likely be less scratched. On the rear main check the thrust side of the bearings. I would take the end plate off the oil pump and look for scratches. The surfaces in the pump should all be polished not scratched. Was the crank turned during the last rebuild? Check the chamfer on oil the oil holes in the crankshaft, make sure there are no rough edges to peel bearing material. I would pull the oil galley plugs in the rear and front of the two long passages along the lifter bore. If you have alot of metal deposits on any of the plugs, maybe the block didn't get cleaned properly. I would recommend replacing the cam bearings also, once out, you can clean the passage with brakekleen. Check the oil pump driveshaft for signs of rubbing, and the distributer gear for polished areas, signs of rubbing. If you cant determine that this engine is making metal debris, it might have been leftover.

[Chris]

i might need to get a package together from rm builder.


.



Bob is the man.

[fixxxer22]

I just got off the phone with him he will be getting me a timing set, springs, cam and lifters. I am ready to do it the best way possible.

[Real Baja]

Use a 20mm freeze type plug driven into side hole and staked (with small punch) in four places. See picture here.......
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/general-q/184337d1135978727-oil-pressure-problems-stock-hardware-dscf0498.jpg

[jeffswav]

I just got off the phone with him he will be getting me a timing set, springs, cam and lifters. I am ready to do it the best way possible.I hope you are ready to go fast :D The springs change and height adjustment will be easier to do with the heads removed. Be sure if you use the cam button setup to get the camshaft endplay set correctly, do not use the stamped steel cover. Also be sure to check the pushrod length, do the sharpie test. Bob will point you in the right direction.

[Griswald]

Use a 20mm freeze type plug driven into side hole and staked (with small punch) in four places. See picture here.......
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/general-q/184337d1135978727-oil-pressure-problems-stock-hardware-dscf0498.jpg


I tried to install a 20mm plug in my block tonight and was 100% not comfortable on how loose it was. Staked or not, I didn't like it and went with the 30lb relief valve instead.

[fixxxer22]

Use a 20mm freeze type plug driven into side hole and staked (with small punch) in four places. See picture here.......
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/general-q/184337d1135978727-oil-pressure-problems-stock-hardware-dscf0498.jpg

Thanks for the help but mine is going back to the machine shop to be cleaned so i can ensure that everything goes well. So, i think i am gonna go with what Eddie does and tap the hole since i have the oppertunity to clean out any shavings made by tapping the hole. thanks for the help :cheers2:

[Trim'd Up]

I tried to install a 20mm plug in my block tonight and was 100% not comfortable on how loose it was. Staked or not, I didn't like it and went with the 30lb relief valve instead.

I used a 13/16" freeze plug and it fits really tight. I had to drive it in like they are intended. I tried the 20mm too and agree it was too loose.

[MERPerformance]

Fixxxer22
As said, by Eddie and Bob, always check the lifter bore clearance not only for clearance, but also for being out of round. The Morel, lifter is what I use on every build. The problem with any lifter is the clearance and any side loading of the lifter, caused by the bore not being true to the cam lobe. This can be corrected by indexing the lifter bores installing bronze sleves. Morels require a max clearance of .0015 and a min of .001. I use a BHJ lifter true set-up in my milling machine. the bores are drilled and reamed to about 1.000" then we install bronze bushings, drill the oil galley holes through the bushings, then ream the bushings, the block is then put into a honing tank and the bushings are finish honed to size.
Your lifter to bore clearance should be .0015 for a marine application. I have found that for example: New Dart block clearance is .001-.0012", on a World block .002-.0022", GM Gen5,6,.002" anything that has alot of time on it
.0025-.0028". One of the problems with a World block is the lifter bores are short, plus they have a under-cut- radius at the top of the bores. Any of the older Gen IV blocks do not have the taller lifter bores and are most likely worn and out of round. I have in the past extended the bronze bushing out of the bore on the top to give more surface area to the lifter.
Have you machine shop, check every one of those bores for clearance with a bore gauge against the Morel lifter O.D. size. If they say only 1 or 2 are worn, you are better in the long run doing all 16. The cost should be 450-500$.

[fixxxer22]

Now, I have a handle on getting more money for this fix. would it be wiser for me to install a crossover kit and remove the circulating pump. remove the thermostat and purchace a thermostat controlled oil cooler? Also, talking to Eddie (who has been awesome help) i am going to install an oil tem gauge.

My only issue is I run the V-belt sytle system and 3 of the belts use the circulating pump. I am not in the market for a serpintine system. What do i do with the belts. Do i just go direct to the power steering and alternator with shorter belts?

And is buying a used crossover kosher or is there a good system out there? I do not need anything flashy. My engine is balck and blue and i do not care how it looks. it looks like a big bruise and i am ok with that. so is there any crossover kits that are painted instead of chrome?

[MILD THUNDER]

Now, I have a handle on getting more money for this fix. would it be wiser for me to install a crossover kit and remove the circulating pump. remove the thermostat and purchace a thermostat controlled oil cooler? Also, talking to Eddie (who has been awesome help) i am going to install an oil tem gauge.

My only issue is I run the V-belt sytle system and 3 of the belts use the circulating pump. I am not in the market for a serpintine system. What do i do with the belts. Do i just go direct to the power steering and alternator with shorter belts?

And is buying a used crossover kosher or is there a good system out there? I do not need anything flashy. My engine is balck and blue and i do not care how it looks. it looks like a big bruise and i am ok with that. so is there any crossover kits that are painted instead of chrome?

I would keep the circulating pump and add a oil T-Stat and oil temp gauge.

[fixxxer22]

I was looking at the perma-cool 1070 on summit. I am looking at $8-900.00 for a thermostat controlled oil cooler. or about $400.00 for the eddie marine cooler Eddie reccomended. The thermostat from perma-cool is like $50.00 and looks like it may do the trick. The hardin marine ones are very very expensive. I am just confused as how to hook it up.

I am looking at having to buy pistons now due to the fact that i have staining in my bores that i let go by last year. I have some omey to spend on this build but i wanna go good on hard parts. i was just wondering if i should ignore the cheap in me and get the expensive thermostat or get the normal cooler, watch my temps and go from there.

[fixxxer22]

Looks like there is a hardin marine thermostaticaly controlled oil cooler available for 600.00 i might just go that route. I will be drinking keystone and eating ramen but i will have a good running engine.

[AIR TIME]

I got rid of the circulating pump when I did my 502 over and when I did it a second time added pistons made it 9.5 to1 hyd roller cam , merlin heads vee belts just bought smaller ones made 647hp with bg 850 dart intake and 670 with intake block and 1050 nickerson felt a lot more going to the 1050. now have a custom Dean Gellner carb by a shop CFM and Dean is making a custom intake by playing with a brodix intake. so don't stop at 500hp doing new pistons/cam you should make a health 600 plus might as well go to 509. that motor set up and the shortie drive helped get me to mid 80s. but you need headers for this to forgot that part oops. good luck .:driving:

[AIR TIME]

since you need a cooler just get one with the thermo/ powersteering/oil cooler all in one I think hardin and ke and cp sell them for 600.00 your in good hands with rm and yp take care .

[fixxxer22]

Ohhhh yes i am in good hands with RM. i got a thermostat controlled cooler. just need help with plumbing. which line goes where and what not. bob said that with my factory heads and gils i may be in the 560-570 range for hp. the lifters are here and the pistons are on the way. and he is making me a spec sheet so my builder cant phuck it up.