Anyone taking odds on the auto industry bail-out?

[DollaBill]

It would be a waste of money. It's like trying to save a typewriter company in todays tech market. And, yes I'm aware of the job losses etc. Thats horrible and I hate to see people effected, but the reality is those workers were making too much for the past 40 years.

OK, whats your opinion?

[Buoy]

It really is, how far reaching this problem will be?
All the other industry's that supply the auto industry.
I think of one that is very near to me and I've been involved in - thin film coatings.
Although I work in Rx optics, they use the same type of coatings on the lenses (head/tail lamps) and glass on cars. That is a much larger part of the industry, as well as in tech stuff (LCD screens).
Auto industry shuts down, it takes other sectors with it.
Yes, the Auto industry has been overpaid for a long, long, time. Thank your Union.

[Trim'd Up]

I agree on the overpaid thing.
I see it being a huge blow to the country if the auto industry goes down though. All of the supporting industry, then the people in those sectors can't buy anything which will hurt other industries and on and on. It is going to get real bad. I don't think there is any way around it though. The country needs a good douching, but it is really going to hurt. We have gotten way to fat and lazy in this country to compete globally. I don't think we can spend our way out this time.

[Cash Bar]

Auto, Airline, Construction and Steelworker Unions(and others) have all served a purpose.

The problem is that purpose was accomplished years ago and now they are a burden on the economy.

[fund razor]

Full blooded capitalist here....
I have spent the last 20 years bad mouthing the auto unions for what they and the democrats did to the rust belt, northwest Ohio, and Detroit (Most of Michigan.)
I was among the first to realize a couple of years ago... while working in health care finance... that GM had become the largest provider of health care in the US.
I hate bailouts. I love accountability. I love it Karma.

I don't want any more taxes and I LOVE the free market system.

But most of the people who will be hurt, BAD by an uncontrolled collapse of the big three would have had nothing to do with it. (Myself working in the Detroit market included... for purposes of full disclosure.)

I am surprised to know that I support this particular bailout.
But I do.

Bail em out.

The banks and the big three. That's all... I would even let the airlines fail. But not the financial and industrial sectors.

[MarylandMark]

The country needs a good douching, but it is really going to hurt.

+1

Rebuild the economy from the bottom up.

Most in this country aren't in the position to buy a car any time soon and most likely it won't be one from the Big 3 when they do.

[fund razor]

If we can't save the big three.... let's at least kick out the illegals so that college graduates in the US can get (some) landscaping jobs.

[MarylandMark]

11/17/08 (http://www.reuters.com/article/americasDealsNews/idUSTRE4AG7DU20081117):

Honda opens new plant in Indiana hiring over 1K workers w/average wage of $18.51/hr with 900 more set to start in the Spring!

In the US Honda/Toyota/Nissan employ 113K people; Big 3 emply 239K

1/08 thru 10/08: (http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesE)

Big 3 sold 5,496,270 = 23 cars per person
H/T/N sold 4,054,494 = 36 cars per person

Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers. (http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_ detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx)

[fund razor]

That's a great post.
Proves that cars can be built here using the right business model.

Now we can bail them out. They can be the new Kentucky.

[DollaBill]

Full blooded capitalist here....
I have spent the last 20 years bad mouthing the auto unions for what they and the democrats did to the rust belt, northwest Ohio, and Detroit (Most of Michigan.)
I was among the first to realize a couple of years ago... while working in health care finance... that GM had become the largest provider of health care in the US.
I hate bailouts. I love accountability. I love it Karma.

I don't want any more taxes and I LOVE the free market system.

But most of the people who will be hurt, BAD by an uncontrolled collapse of the big three would have had nothing to do with it. (Myself working in the Detroit market included... for purposes of full disclosure.)

I am surprised to know that I support this particular bailout.
But I do.

Bail em out.

The banks and the big three. That's all... I would even let the airlines fail. But not the financial and industrial sectors.

Here's how I see it Fund (then off for sushi and a martini so I'm done for the evening :sifone:)

I disagree with the thought that the people being hurt had nothing to with and/or aren't responsible for their own fate. Did they ever sit back and say "what if"? I don't think so. Should they have? He!! yes. Period.

If you were/are a union worker and had the best blue color job on the planet and DECIDED to ride out that path and be there 30 years and have your healthcare/pension/etc YOU MADE A DECISION. Just like the rest of us. If you never thought about it your just not that smart. Darwinism cleans up once again.

You make your bed, you lie in it. PERIOD. I've made some dumb mistakes and paid dearly. But in the end they were MY decisions. Man up, accept responsibilty for ones life and move on the next chapter.

I know you Fund and I know that you don't expect anything from anyone so I don't why you think nobody should get hurt in this. TTYT bro.

:leaving:

[fund razor]

I don't know what TTYT means.

But I know how you feel Bill. I wonder though... if you are really hip to the extent that the ripples will travel... and how many totally innocent people who screamed against the stupidity in the auto industry....like me... will be screwed and on the doorstep of every town with a half a job open.
Do you really want me living on your living room couch????? :D

Have a good martini. I am jealous.

[fund razor]

I still hate bailouts, and love martinis.... so we should be cool.. I can get a storage space for my stuff... and I will be dragging the Brave. :D

Oh... and I have a couple of killer audio systems.

[fund razor]

Ok Bill... I am willing to compromise... so that I don't have to crash with you:

They turn down the big three and they bail me out to the tune of 30 mil. I will keep one mil for my various needs. I will put 10 mil in endowment (safe road) and invest the other 19 mil in new market businesses. I will pay the 30 mil back in 5 years.

And... I will pick up your bar tab for a year. That should be like.... 100k.

[jayboat]

If a major part of our manufacturing sector is allowed to fail we will go directly into a depression.

I'm in favor of some sort of assitance even if it's just Chapter 11- prove that they can re-invent themselves, re-structure, jettison current mgmt and attitude, and move forward with some cars that make sense.

I don't have much faith in our politicians right now, tho... their handling of the rescue/bailout so far has been rather unimpressive. I don't think they have a clue as to how to deal with this.

[inbetween]

That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers

Add benefits to that figure and my calculator starts to smoke

[jayboat]

I don't know what TTYT means.


I'm gonna guess: "talk to you tomorrow"

[jayboat]

(gotta get my post count up)

[fund razor]

If a major part of our manufacturing sector is allowed to fail we will go directly into a depression.

I'm in favor of some sort of assitance even if it's just Chapter 11- prove that they can re-invent themselves, re-structure, jettison current mgmt and attitude, and move forward with some cars that make sense.

I don't have much faith in our politicians right now, tho... their handling of the rescue/bailout so far has been rather unimpressive. I don't think they have a clue as to how to deal with this.

Uh oh. I agree with Jay.
Scratch another sign off the apocalypse gant chart.

[fund razor]

I'm gonna guess: "talk to you tomorrow"

Ok... You kids are so hip. I have never texted.

Gotta get my post count up too.

[jayboat]

Ok... You kids are so hip. I have never texted.

Gotta get my post count up too.

I hardly ever text... I'm just good with acronyms, and occasionally I get lucky.

[glassdave]

Here's how I see it Fund (then off for sushi and a martini so I'm done for the evening :sifone:)

I disagree with the thought that the people being hurt had nothing to with and/or aren't responsible for their own fate. Did they ever sit back and say "what if"? I don't think so. Should they have? He!! yes. Period.

If you were/are a union worker and had the best blue color job on the planet and DECIDED to ride out that path and be there 30 years and have your healthcare/pension/etc YOU MADE A DECISION. Just like the rest of us. If you never thought about it your just not that smart. Darwinism cleans up once again.

You make your bed, you lie in it. PERIOD. I've made some dumb mistakes and paid dearly. But in the end they were MY decisions. Man up, accept responsibilty for ones life and move on the next chapter.

I know you Fund and I know that you don't expect anything from anyone so I don't why you think nobody should get hurt in this. TTYT bro.

:leaving:

agreed 100% . . . . so many people want to blame their fate on someone else. I'm not saying people done get caught in the crossfire but most can see hand writing on the the wall long before it happens.

[jayboat]

Uh oh. I agree with Jay.
Scratch another sign off the apocalypse gant chart.

Stranger things have happened. Seriously. :ack2:

[fund razor]

agreed 100% . . . . so many people want to blame their fate on someone else. .
I know. It drives me nuts. Maybe my worst pet peeve.



I'm not saying people done get caught in the crossfire but most can see hand writing on the the wall long before it happens.

From what I can tell.... you and I are both in the path of the regional tsunami from a big three collapse. I know that you are fairly mobile... but this region, including the neighborhoods of our childhood homes... will go under and we will dam near need to flee. Think mad max. Chain link from Bowling Green to Waterford.

[fund razor]

I wish it was a case of simply forcing lazy autoworkers to get retrained.

But anyway... I respect the folks who say screw em. That's usually how I respond to these things. I get your point. I live it in my life.

[Ratickle]

If a major part of our manufacturing sector is allowed to fail we will go directly into a depression.

I'm in favor of some sort of assitance even if it's just Chapter 11- prove that they can re-invent themselves, re-structure, jettison current mgmt and attitude, and move forward with some cars that make sense.

I don't have much faith in our politicians right now, tho... their handling of the rescue/bailout so far has been rather unimpressive. I don't think they have a clue as to how to deal with this.


Uh oh. I agree with Jay.
Scratch another sign off the apocalypse gant chart.

Pretty ominous sign, I'm heading straight out to stock up on food, water, and bullets.:seeya:

I'm not in favor currently, unless they file Chapter 11. There is no way they can compete under the current structuring of the contracts with the workers. GM has 160,000 workers and almost a million retires collecting on average, $40,000 pension and full health benefits. Can't compete.

However, if they file, health benefits disappear and about 1/2 of the pension expense disappears. Unfortunately, the taxpayers have to pick it up, us!!!.

One thing to remember, no matter what, the same amount of cars will need to be made and sold, minus 10% to 15% for the economic downturn it will cause. Not all agree, but if we bail them out, I am almost positive it is just a postponement of the inevitable. It will happen in the near future, period.

[BBB725]

Management is 100% at fault on this one. They are the ones leading the company are are suppose to be looking out for the share holders. Yes the UAW ask for bigger and better contracts but to agree to job banks, how stupid can the leaders of the big 3 be. There are two ways to reduce cost at the auto plants, labor and material. UAW has stated no more concessions so that leaves material or the suppliers, who are going bankrupt now. Big mess that bankruptcy would help with legacy costs. They are uncompetitive now so giving them money without any changes and expecting a different out come is foolish.

[Ratickle]

Management is 100% at fault on this one. They are the ones leading the company are are suppose to be looking out for the share holders. Yes the UAW ask for bigger and better contracts but to agree to job banks, how stupid can the leaders of the big 3 be. There are two ways to reduce cost at the auto plants, labor and material. UAW has stated no more concessions so that leaves material or the suppliers, who are going bankrupt now. Big mess that bankruptcy would help with legacy costs. They are uncompetitive now so giving them money without any changes and expecting a different out come is foolish.

Yep, but giving them money and letting our politicians manage them is even worse.

[Tommy Gun]

No bailout without MAJOR concessions from UAW. I cannot accept that my hard earned money may be going to pay for some early UAW retirees health care to bridge the gap until they are medicare eligible. Ridiculous. I saw that the employee benefit cost in an american vehicle is $1,200+/- and in a Toyota $300 +/-. This is part of the reason they cannot compete.

[inbetween]

Looking back at one of MMs posts, maybe they should look at the Toyota or Honda business model. That seems to be working here. Not to start anything, but, Fountain has lost most of it's operating officers recently, trimming the fat, something the big 3 should consider doing?

[BBB725]

Yep, but giving them money and letting our politicians manage them is even worse.

I been reading congress wants over site on determining the new products.

[BUIZILLA]

labor tried to call the bluff on Eastern Airlines..

and we all remember where that arrogant move got them... :ack2:

[Von Bongo]

no bailout unless the legacy costs go away or at least substantial consessions from UAW. There's no way they can make it. I hate to see people lose their benefit but what makes them different that the rest of the county that has lost 40+% of their retirement in the last year? Or the Merril, WaMU or any of the thousands of workers that have lost jobs?

Citigroup cutting 53,000 workers, how many can GM let go with no additional ongoing costs?

IMHO under the current system its good money after bad. They think car sales will rebound in 2010...not likely.

[Offshoredrillin]

no bailout unless the legacy costs go away or at least substantial consessions from UAW. There's no way they can make it. I hate to see people lose their benefit but what makes them different that the rest of the county that has lost 40+% of their retirement in the last year? Or the Merril, WaMU or any of the thousands of workers that have lost jobs?

Citigroup cutting 53,000 workers, how many can GM let go with no additional ongoing costs?

IMHO under the current system its good money after bad. They think car sales will rebound in 2010...not likely.
I agree, i dont think the people are overpaid, I think it is gross mismanagement and not having standards for employees, they get away with being drunk on the job, not showing up and are rewarded for shoddy workmanship,reminds me of the movie "gung ho"... I'm sure most appreciate their job, but also damn sure think they are owed. I would look for congressional action to stop more of the execs from cleaning up if the company goes under, I would think wrongful doing legislation is right around the corner, ala Enron.

[jayboat]

It's too smart to ever happen...
but I think the oil companies should bail em out. :dupe:

[BUIZILLA]

It's too smart to ever happen...
but I think the oil companies should bail em out. :dupe: once on a while you come up with a humdinger good one... :) without cars/trucks oil company's have no reason to exist, and they have bookoo bucks right now...

[txriverrat2001]

20 years in the Auto industry and I'm not sure if anything would help .... IMHO I think the big 3 failing will have a major impact on the overall economy. So let's say GM goes under ... someone has to maintain and keep 'em runnin ... so the aftermarket gets fat?? I'm no economist by far ... just a car guy .... mainly fixed ops ... but just because a mfg craters ... everyone just quits driving them? Hell there are still Deloreans (sp?) here in Houston - not sure how his sales are .. but he's selling and servicing them.

I spent 10 years working out of Michigan for FoMoCo via a consulting firm and saw more waste in the programs and bs they shoved on the dealers it amazed me ..... but if you were a dealer, you really had no choice.

IMHO I think the fat cats upstairs at the Big 3 need to put people in their place. Don't like it? hit the door .. and tell your union guy to ki$$ my a$$.....

[rockstrmkr]

At the end of the day the consumer dictates what brands stay in business.
If you build consumer preference, people will buy...
If you cannot get your head out of your a$$ to create consumer preference, no bailout will help you.
The Chevy "Volt" is 2 years too late. Could you imagine GM sales 3-4 months ago if a hybrid vehicle would have been on the show-room floor?

[Ratickle]

I been reading congress wants over site on determining the new products.

Yeah, they do such a good job with all of the other economic items on their agenda.:(

[Ratickle]

once on a while you come up with a humdinger good one... :) without cars/trucks oil company's have no reason to exist, and they have bookoo bucks right now...

You forgot about boats. Did you think we get good mileage? If they bailout autos, they should bail out boats, motor homes, airlines, andon, and on, and on...........

[BBB725]

A "light bulb moment" if I've ever read one!

yep, spread the wealth.:biggrinjester:

[Cash Bar]

And... I will pick up your bar tab for a year. That should be like.... 100k.


Must not be near a Blue Martini.

That was the tab for a MONTH :rofl:

[Tommy Gun]

No bailout without MAJOR concessions from the CEOs of banks and lenders. I cannot accept that my hard earned money may be going to pay for more Golden Parachutes for executives.

Agreed.

[spilman]

Jayboat hit it...Big oil just might work....perfect circle

[glassdave]

I know. It drives me nuts. Maybe my worst pet peeve.



From what I can tell.... you and I are both in the path of the regional tsunami from a big three collapse. I know that you are fairly mobile... but this region, including the neighborhoods of our childhood homes... will go under and we will dam near need to flee. Think mad max. Chain link from Bowling Green to Waterford.

yea . . . it could get pretty ugly. Luckily i derive probably 80% of by biz from eslewhere. I do very little local work and when i do its insurance related. I grew up in Rossford and would hate to see it go downhill its a good little town, still seems ok though.

[Ratickle]

yea . . . it could get pretty ugly. Luckily i derive probably 80% of by biz from eslewhere. I do very little local work and when i do its insurance related. I grew up in Rossford and would hate to see it go downhill its a good little town, still seems ok though.

Hope that's not correct, may be though. Similar situations happened with steel in the 80's (Gary, Pittsburg, etc.), textiles in the 70's (North Carolina, Georgia, etc.), auto suppliers in the 90's, and on. Most manufacturing of major commodities has left, NAFTA and China's most favored nation trade status, (both signed by Clinton), has pretty much made it so US companies can't compete. I still believe Chapter 11 is the only way out.

[fund razor]

I am intrigued by the chapter 11 option, if it softens the landing.

I must say that I hoped to get more support for that plan of mine that would only cost 30 mil. :D

[Ratickle]

It's too smart to ever happen...
but I think the oil companies should bail em out. :dupe:

Certainly would be a fairly good start, add a couple things. A bailout is not a long-term solution because the $ will be gone. You need a long term solution. What if the $65bill was taken from the oil co's as a temp tax, put into something like the guaranteed home loan fund, loaned to anyone with a job, and a shi-ty mileage car to trade in at a zero interest rate for 5years, and only applied to autos with at least 80% US parts and labor. Then kept going in a circle? $65 bill will buy over 1 million cars, and 1 million cars with pollution issues would be taken off the roads every 5 years.

[Ratickle]

I am intrigued by the chapter 11 option, if it softens the landing.

I must say that I hoped to get more support for that plan of mine that would only cost 30 mil. :D

But just like the gov., you forgot about the rest of us.:)

[jayboat]

Certainly would be a fairly good start, add a couple things. A bailout is not a long-term solution because the $ will be gone. You need a long term solution. What if the $65bill was taken from the oil co's as a temp tax, put into something like the guaranteed home loan fund, loaned to anyone with a job, and a shi-ty mileage car to trade in at a zero interest rate for 5years, and only applied to autos with at least 80% US parts and labor. Then kept going in a circle? $65 bill will buy over 1 million cars, and 1 million cars with pollution issues would be taken off the roads every 5 years.

You need to get your ass to Washington. :seeya:

[BBB725]

The problem right now is the car companies have to much capacity for the market and need to cut cost by reducing labor cost which they can't do because of the contract they signed. The UAW has to show strength by standing up to the big three and chapter 11 breaks the contract and the UAW saves face. Bailing them out only prolongs the problem. As far as stealing money from one company and giving to another that made bad choices will chase all companies off shore.

[fund razor]

But just like the gov., you forgot about the rest of us.:)

Yeah... but my way is cheaper for you. :D

The more I think about chapter 11 and the implications... the more I like it in this situation.

[Trim'd Up]

Sounds wonderful to take money from a succeding company to bolster a failing one. That is socialism on a grand scale. I am no more supportive of coporate welfare than personal welfare. Punishing success, that's a hell of a wya to grow the economy.:ack2:

[db71]

Don't bail em out. chapter 11 they will come out a much leaner and profitable company they can cut anything they want in chapter 11. It will happen everyone knows it has to be done. I read the other day the reason they do not want to file BR is because they are afraid no one will buy cars from a company that is BR. I think that is a load of crap.

I used to work and still have friends who do for a commercial construction that is non union the same building they can build for 10 mil costs at least 15mil from a union company and the non union company cannot even bid on it. Now don't get me wrong in construction the unions actually train a skill but they could utilize that as a school for anyone who would want to attend like a college. Thats my union rant for now.

[Wrinkleface]

GMA just did a story on the execs run'n all around in private jets at big $'s, mentioned the salaries of GM & Ford main dudes, something like 16 & 28 mil resp. In Washington ask'n 4 $$$$$$$!!! They said the gm flight from Detroit was 20K round trip & showed a Northworst flight 4 $288 rnd trip!!!!! Can we say BS BS BS BS!!!!!!!!!!????

[cigdaze]

I support the bailout on one condition:
Fire everyone! Re-hire the next day on the MFG's own terms, thus ditching the unions.
There's no other way to return to profitability.

[Audiofn]

While Jayboats idea on the surface may seem good, oil companies and NO OTHER private company that could afford to buy the big three are interested. Why? Because they are so screwed up that they can not be fixed in their current state. You will never get an oil company to bail them out because the oil company does not care about car sales. In fact older cars get lower fuel milage so why would they want to see new car sales? They are profitable and they do not want the or need the bad debt.

While it is easy to try and say that the guys on top should not be able to fly in a private plane and should not be able to have their "golden Parachutes" then how do you plan to entice a good guy in to a failing company? As for the private plane, yes it costs a lot but there are ussually a lot more then one person on that plane. For example my wife has flown on one of the the Johnson and Johnson jets and there were 15 people on board. You divide that up and it makes sence. Also if you take the income of 28 million and divide that by the hour, do you really want that guy sitting at the airport doing nothign for 2 hours prior to his departure, with multimple layovers...... It is cost effective to put those guys on those planes. Do you think that Toyota, Honda.... pay thier exect small patato's? Of course not!

SO were does the problem lie? Lies in a lot of places. The cars IMO are competitive. I actually think my new Ford hybrid is a decent car. The way they treat customers still sucks. The unions are going to kill them with the long term overhead and vehicals have gone from a truck that in 1999/2000 cost 35,000 to almost 50,000 today. Who can afford a 50,000 dollar truck? Not many. 2000 dollars for GPS? No thanks I can get one for 150 at Staples.... Lets face it Chrysler almost killed MB!

There are a lot of industries that have gone bust over the years. The economy addapts. There is no doubt that there is LONG term suffering in that area. I can drive to a ton of town in Massachusetts that have places that went down when textile industries moved out in the 50's, 60's and 70's. They are now renovating these places and turning them into artists galleries, condo's, business condo's....... They found things to do and now they are growing and thriving.

[Audiofn]

I'm all for that.

That is because it is not going to effect you!!! :boxing_smiley::26:

[MarylandMark]

I'm torn-

I've been union labor for 15+ years. I signed on to this company because of the free medical, dental, vision, pension, pay, etc. When I retire I also expect free medical, dental, vision, pension. If they didn't offer that I would have gone to work some place else. I'm anti-union btw.

Union or no union- what is wrong with wanting a living wage? A wage you can actually live on- not one of the working poor. UAW getting $30 an hour is not the problem.

Start at the top:

Chief Executive Rick Wagoner's salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 million.

Fritz Henderson, who was promoted to president and chief operating officer in March, received compensation of about $9.3 million in 2007, up from about $5.1 million in 2006.

Vice Chairman Bob Lutz's compensation rose to about $9 million in 2007, from about $5.1 million in 2006.

Ford Motor Co Chief Executive Alan Mulally had earned more than $22 million in 2007

Chrysler's Nardelli is only making $1 a year after he rolled out of Home Depot making $347M in 2007 in golden parachute and severance packages. They are called golden because the rest of us are getting pissed on.


ps- Honda has never had an unprofitable year. It has never had to lay off employees. Honda doesn't disclose executive pay in detail, but the sum of salaries and bonuses that Fukui shares with 36 board members, $13 million.

[Audiofn]

Mark: You are not going to get a quality guy on TOP offering him nothing. For some one to come into these companies and take a huge risk not only in their earnings but also their reputation they want all the coin, and they should get it.

[MarylandMark]

I'd do it for 1/2... :sifone:

I agree- why go work at place Y when you can make X at place Z. I don't blame them for getting all they can; just think the entire CEO compensation world is way out of wack.

CEO pay vs average employee pay ratio:

USA 411 times
Mexican 61 times
Brazilan 60 times
China 36 times
Britan 32
Canada 23
France 23
South Korea 23
Germany 20
Japan 11


CEO pay to employee pay in America 37 times more than it is in Japan

CEO compensation of American oil companies average $33 million
CEO of BP (British Petroleum) 2nd biggest oil company in the world) made $5.6 million
CEO of Royal Dutch Shell (3rd biggest), made $4.1 million

All I'm saying is the little guy (worker) is not the only one mooching off the system. UAW forcing GM to have 3K employee's sit in an office building because there is no work is BS without a doubt but all them together don't make as much as the CEO does before thier first chit of the day which I think is just as wrong.

[BBB725]

I'm torn-

I've been union labor for 15+ years. I signed on to this company because of the free medical, dental, vision, pension, pay, etc. When I retire I also expect free medical, dental, vision, pension. If they didn't offer that I would have gone to work some place else. I'm anti-union btw.

Union or no union- what is wrong with wanting a living wage? A wage you can actually live on- not one of the working poor. UAW getting $30 an hour is not the problem.

Start at the top:

Chief Executive Rick Wagoner's salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 million.

Fritz Henderson, who was promoted to president and chief operating officer in March, received compensation of about $9.3 million in 2007, up from about $5.1 million in 2006.

Vice Chairman Bob Lutz's compensation rose to about $9 million in 2007, from about $5.1 million in 2006.

Ford Motor Co Chief Executive Alan Mulally had earned more than $22 million in 2007

Chrysler's Nardelli is only making $1 a year after he rolled out of Home Depot making $347M in 2007 in golden parachute and severance packages. They are called golden because the rest of us are getting pissed on.


ps- Honda has never had an unprofitable year. It has never had to lay off employees. Honda doesn't disclose executive pay in detail, but the sum of salaries and bonuses that Fukui shares with 36 board members, $13 million.

The biggest problem is the guarantied pay, retired workers health care and job banks, when sale decline any company has to be able to reduce cost which the auto makers can't do. The jobs bank alone is costing over 2 billion a year.

[DollaBill]

I don't think they will get it and I see chapt 11 then 7 for GM within 30 days.

[fund razor]

Good article about ramifications.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/what-if-gm-goes-broke.aspx

[DollaBill]

Oh, and I'm with you on the 30MM plan as long as our cocktail costs are included. Friggin pork! And Cash bar wasn't serious. We could go at least TWO months on 100k at Blue :)

[fund razor]

Oh, and I'm with you on the 30MM plan as long as our cocktail costs are included. Friggin pork! And Cash bar wasn't serious. We could go at least TWO months on 100k at Blue :)

Ok.... bar tab increase to 600k.
Thanks for your support. :D

[Tommy Gun]

[QUOTE=Audiofn;23891]

While it is easy to try and say that the guys on top should not be able to fly in a private plane and should not be able to have their "golden Parachutes" then how do you plan to entice a good guy in to a failing company? Do you think that Toyota, Honda.... pay thier exect small patato's? Of course not!

QUOTE]

Pay for performance; incentive pay; whatever you want to call it; we cannot afford to give bailout money to exec's who are the ones responsible for the situation in the first place, nor condone the unions position. They both need to give in order to make the companies vaible again. Until then no bailout; let'em go C11.

I mean what would you rather have, a fair paying job or no job. Of course that's a tough decision now that Barry's been elected. You'd probably be better off not working. :(

[Sea-Dated]

I don't think they will get it and I see chapt 11 then 7 for GM within 30 days.

I have to agree with Bill on this one except I think it will be 60-90 days before chapt 7.

[DollaBill]

You know - I just had a thought.

Where will Mercury get blocks from??? regardless of demand, it's crazy to think you may not be able to get a new GM block if this happens

crazy.

[fund razor]

You know - I just had a thought.

Where will Mercury get blocks from??? regardless of demand, it's crazy to think you may not be able to get a new GM block if this happens

crazy.

Aftermarket will become oem. You can already build a "GM" engine without actually getting a single part from GM. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. But I am pretty sure.

[Sea-Dated]

Aftermarket will become oem. You can already build a "GM" engine without actually getting a single part from GM. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. But I am pretty sure.

There are other sources for a "GM" big block besides GM.

[Awaken]

Chapter 11 Bankruptcy may help the big 3 survive, but it hurts every firm that supplies parts to them (and the second and third tier fims too). In 2005 Delphi declared chapter 11 and did not pay one vendor! The original goal was to break all of the unfavorable union contracts and then reorganize. Three years later and they are still in Chapter 11 and Delphi's vendors have yet to be paid. They owe my company a large chunk of change. If GM, Ford or Chrysler go Chapter 11, they will be able to cancel union contracts, but you will see a lot of small firms go under when the big 3 dont pay their bills. You wont see any of these firms getting bail outs either (I doub't it will even make the news).

[DollaBill]

Yes, you can def get other blocks (alum etc.) But what about the "production" boat engines? It will change the way everything gets serviced due to non-uniform parts etc.

[pullmytrigger]

You guys want to make this so complicated.....its the UAWs fault, Rick Wagoneer is too highly paid etc etc......bottom line......the cars arnt selling.......END of story!......if the big three were selling so many cars that the Toyota and Nissan plants were idle and closing down due to lack of orders youd pay Wagoneer 30 mil a year and love the guy.

Kock it off with all this BS.......the only REAL question is why arnt the cars selling????

I think this little I swear to god true story about sums it up.......my stepsons girlfriends parents have matching Trailblazers, his black, hers red........ok fine....but when they wanted a RELIABLE car for their darling, precious, defenceless little daughter (the girlfriend) to drive back and forth to University, a two hour drive one way sometimes in snowy, nasty weather and sometimes OMG! after dark!!....... what do you think they bought her?????........you guessed it, a Toyota Corolla........true story

[fund razor]

about sums what up?

[Tony M]

B I G - 3 COME ON C E O s ASK FOR MONEY AND come on the company LEAR JET'S WHAT EVER HAPPEN TO DOWN SIZEING YOU D I C K H E A D S !!!!!

[MarylandMark]

I mean what would you rather have, a fair paying job or no job. Of course that's a tough decision now that Barry's been elected. You'd probably be better off not working. :(

+1 on both points!


Chapter 11 Bankruptcy may help the big 3 survive, but it hurts every firm that supplies parts to them (and the second and third tier firms too).

Exact reason I'm not a fan of C11. Sell the assets- even if just for scrap metal- and that 3 million figure affected drops drastically. They will have to move on to make some thing else for someone else but long term they most likely would be better off doing that anyway. 1.5M Big 3 cars were bought this year- if they weren't around someone else would have to fill that void. Why didn't someone that bought a Honda buy a Yugo? They aren't around anymore but they still needed a car; see void filled.


bottom line......the cars arnt selling

Yep! This is the biggest reason I'm not a fan of saving them; they couldn't save themselves even with a bailout. It's been said many times before they made big bucks on the gas hogs, only made the econoboxes to meet CAFE- not sure if it is true or not but sounds about right.

[itilldo]

some of you guys really think that it will only effect about 250 K people???

If Ford and GM go out of business and we close our plant along with the other automotive plants (Tier 1 and 2 suppliers) in the area, this town of 30,000 and surrendering area will be affected directlly.. its not the GM and Ford guys that get the pinch.....this will be a true domino effect on how it effects the economy. People who don't have jobs at the Tier 1, well we don't need that many people at Wal-Mart, Applebee's, or the local Car dealership...etc, etc. cut them down as well and then you even have more out of work.

A comment earlier by " Audiofn" was about the the textile industry drying up (you mean moving over sea's) well this industry employee's a hell of a lot more people and the domino effect will be much much greater. This will be a total depression... much worse than anything any of us know about by first hand.....

Watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl

[pullmytrigger]

the GM pick up truck assembly plant 3 mi from my house, where several of my friends work even a year and a half ago ran 3 shifts 24 hours A DAY since like 1995!!!......now, that "golden" plant is down to one shift and slated to close!!!.....WOW!!!!...... why???.....lack of orders!!!!

I personally thank the oil speculators for driving the price of oil out of site out of pure GREED and killing the domestic truck market, the only profitable segment the big three had......doug

[jayboat]

Here's another troubling sign of the times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)...

[DollaBill]

some of you guys really think that it will only effect about 250 K people???

If Ford and GM go out of business and we close our plant along with the other automotive plants (Tier 1 and 2 suppliers) in the area, this town of 30,000 and surrendering area will be affected directlly.. its not the GM and Ford guys that get the pinch.....this will be a true domino effect on how it effects the economy. People who don't have jobs at the Tier 1, well we don't need that many people at Wal-Mart, Applebee's, or the local Car dealership...etc, etc. cut them down as well and then you even have more out of work.

A comment earlier by " Audiofn" was about the the textile industry drying up (you mean moving over sea's) well this industry employee's a hell of a lot more people and the domino effect will be much much greater. This will be a total depression... much worse than anything any of us know about by first hand.....

Watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl

I don't want anyone to see pain, but someone has to right now.

Here is the fundemental difference is this-

Why does your town get to survive?
Why do we have to look out for those people?
Why can't those people look out for themselves?
Why can't they relocate to where they can make a nice living?

It's a MUCH bigger picture

[pullmytrigger]

about sums what up?

what dont you get???

the big three's cars have a reputation for being P'sOS......you can buy a Toyota, drive it for 5 yrs and never lay a wrench on it, just reg maint......the resale values on the two brands says it all.

a westcoast guy posted awhile back on OSO about how his family owns a company that makes sensors for GM......he said GM will come and say they need a sensor that will do this and this and this......so they make it......then GM will come back and say "OK its good, we like it, but you need to cut your price per unit by 6 cents"......the only way they can do it is to make a cheaper (read unreliable) product...... he said they know the product is chitty as it goes out the door but thats what they paid for......you do that all over the car and you know what you get.

[itilldo]

Here's another troubling sign of the times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)...

this is a global issue... I talked to two buddies of mine who are both in the Teir 1 supplier base like myself, one in the UK and one in Germany just this morning about this topic and they are getting slow over there as well...in fact both stated that have each seen the work force being "trimmed" at their plant in the last several weeks. Keep in mind that these guys make car parts for Audi, Mercedes, Ford, GM, VW as well as others.

Keep in mind that this country is the place to sell cars and they will all, even Honda and Toyota, be hurting soon, some just will take a little longer to feel the pinch.

We have two competitive automotive suppliers in town here and they have had "fiscal issue's" and trimming people for the last several months but my plant is just starting to feel it today. In fact before me leaving work today, there was a plant wide meeting and the Hourly's were informed that they were going to be laying off 30 people prior to Christmas and don't look to come back until around the middle of Feb, maybe................

The Oil companies and the speculators really should be happy that they started all of this P h uckin mess

[itilldo]

I don't want anyone to see pain, but someone has to right now.

Here is the fundemental difference is this-

Why does your town get to survive?
Why do we have to look out for those people?
Why can't those people look out for themselves?
Why can't they relocate to where they can make a nice living?

It's a MUCH bigger picture

its not a matter of my town or other towns surviving per say...its surviving in the very basic's of needs, food and shelter.... If these people whom you say should tough it up and move on, to where to what....The number of people needing work will out weigh of what is available and what pay level will this be at, 8 bucks an hour? so too take a different job making the 8 or 10 bucks @ hr compared to the $16 they were making, now who / how are they going to make the difference in their diminished pay to accommodate that monthly house note? Make Meth or grow Pot and sell it to the City folks...


What I'm really trying to say is that this is not that cut and dry.


The main issue I really have is the bail out to AIG. This is not where that Government help should have gone too. Its better to keep people working than it is too worry about them loosing their house. You can find a place to sleep if your have a job even thou it might be a one bedroom apartment but if you don't have a job well you do what you have to do to survive......

[jayboat]

Yer right, it's not that cut and dry. I also think you are wrong to lay this on the oil companies and speculators, although they certainly helped speed up the inevitable.

Looking like it may be chap 11 for at least one of them. In an article I just read, the point was made that the auto cos are more than a little responsible for the position they find themselves in because they have FOUGHT congressional attempts to mandate better fuel mileage standards FOR YEARS.

Make your bed, lie in it.

[cigdaze]

It's not just the big 3 companies either. It's not just the plants. It's all the suppliers, support services, dealerships, maintenance and service, etc., etc. We're talking possibly millions of folks nationwide....Not to mention the 10s of millions of people with gm/ford/chrysler vehicles who will be left holding the bag. This will be the nail in the coffin signaling widespread depression. Something's got to be done. But costs must be trimmed, and that means folks going back to honest 8 hour shift, with reasonable pay.

It's the phucker working 3,75 hours a day making 45 bucks an hour turning a single bolt a few times a day that put them in this position.

[itilldo]

Yer right, it's not that cut and dry. I also think you are wrong to lay this on the oil companies and speculators, although they certainly helped speed up the inevitable.

Looking like it may be chap 11 for at least one of them. In an article I just read, the point was made that the auto cos are more than a little responsible for the position they find themselves in because they have FOUGHT congressional attempts to mandate better fuel mileage standards FOR YEARS.

Make your bed, lie in it.

I really did not mean that the oil Companies did this intentionally,, what was in my head and not being stated properly was that they continued to push the envelope as they should but the bubble burst. The rising fuel prices took monies away from people who were already in houses that they should not have had and then the miss payments because the displaced monies went to higher fuel costs, etc and here we are...

[DollaBill]

Doesn't look good for the car boys after watching testimony today. And the G4's didnt help. What a bunch of idiots.

[phragle]

well, dana just offered buy-outs to their engineers,(gm tech center) saying you can take it, if you don't we can't gaurantee your jobs will last long.... now if the automakers need to come up with new platforms, more streamlined mfg. and improve what they have now, aren't the engineers the very people you need??? and we wonder why the big 3 have problems....

[Spicy]

Watching the Nightly News right now, I think I heard this right GM stock at just over $2 a share it hasnt been that low since 1942.... Thats not good

[itilldo]

well, dana just offered buy-outs to their engineers,(gm tech center) saying you can take it, if you don't we can't gaurantee your jobs will last long.... now if the automakers need to come up with new platforms, more streamlined mfg. and improve what they have now, aren't the engineers the very people you need??? and we wonder why the big 3 have problems....



Dana plant down the road from us told their salaried folks Monday that they are cutting 15 % out of the front office and also informed them that the plant might be closing.... 200-300 people

Johnson Controls in Cadiz, Ky 22 miles form here is closing in the next month 500-600 people out of work.

[jayboat]

I really did not mean that the oil Companies did this intentionally,, what was in my head and not being stated properly was that they continued to push the envelope as they should but the bubble burst. The rising fuel prices took monies away from people who were already in houses that they should not have had and then the miss payments because the displaced monies went to higher fuel costs, etc and here we are...

All true... and just one piece of the puzzle.

One thing for sure- there is some pain coming.

[Von Bongo]

OK, how many jobs lost in the financial services in the last 12 months. Citi alone 77,000 jobs. NY City 165,0000 how many builders, realtors, mortgage brokers throughout the country.

Now lets say GM fails why are all the suppliers going down? If 12 million cars are the demand in the next 12 months SOMEONE has to build those cars, parts have to come from somewhere, they just don't magically appear. Does Honda and Toyota have the excess capacity, if not they have to hire more workers, former GM workers and suppliers to build them.

All the CEOs expect the a recovery in 8 months, mid 2009. Ain't happening, even if the market levels, people have lost generational wealth. Last thing on their mind is going out and buying a car from a company that just had to be bailed out.

Face it, it's over for GM for sure in it's current form. Chrysler too, maybe Ford can survive because they at least can pick up some market share and can get by without the bailout til 2010.

Having said that I think they will loan them money and in 6 months we'll be talkin about it again and Obama will throw more good money after bad.

[DollaBill]

I dont think there will be a 12 million vehicle/yr demand for 10 years. Maybe 6-8. EVERYONE is slowing down. "My truck is fine. I'll hang on to it 1 more year even though I get a new one every 3 years".

The american pysche has been altered forever. At least until everything is fine and then those kids grow up to be the phuking idiots that run wall street and Detroit. Kinda sound like the 30's to the 1980's and now here we are. Coincidence? hmmm

[pullmytrigger]

It's the phucker working 3,75 hours a day making 45 bucks an hour turning a single bolt a few times a day that put them in this position.

Sorry - that stereotypical worker left in the 70s......for the last 20 yrs a guy on the line works 50 seconds out of a minute.....8 hrs a day......no air conditioning......wanna trade places??.....after every job you have to hit a button on a keyboard thats linked directly to detroit to signal youve done your job....you cant keep up, you'll get a chittyer job like standing and working over your head underneath the car for 50 sec every minute......they have to force the guys to take overtime.....nobody wants it....too tired at the end of 8hrs......my buddies say when they first started (20 yrs ago) you could work in an area for a year or two and get a "good" job, maybe work up the line and get 10 or 15min to yourself, none of that for years.....now "they all suck".......a guys retires he is never replaced......everyone around him gets more work

[DollaBill]

Sorry - that stereotypical worker left in the 70s......for the last 20 yrs a guy on the line works 50 seconds out of a minute.....8 hrs a day......no air conditioning......wanna trade places??.....after every job you have to hit a button on a keyboard thats linked directly to detroit to signal youve done your job....you cant keep up, you'll get a chittyer job like standing and working over your head underneath the car for 50 sec every minute......they have to force the guys to take overtime.....nobody wants it....too tired at the end of 8hrs......my buddies say when they first started (20 yrs ago) you could work in an area for a year or two and get a "good" job, maybe work up the line and get 10 or 15min to yourself, none of that for years.....now "they all suck".......a guys retires he is never replaced......everyone around him gets more work

You mean.......................................


A JOB?

[pullmytrigger]

How hard would it be to divert $25b out of $700b to help our auto industry? Yes make them dangle with strings attached(fuel-efficient vehicles and suchlike) but to kill a whole industry and leave it to Japan?? Unthinkable.

GM makes lots of fuel efficient vehicals......the cobalt and aveo are as good as almost anything in pure mpg......too bad nobody buys them.....whens the last time you saw an aveo compared to a Honda.


Lack of SALES are killing the big 3

[pullmytrigger]

You mean.......................................


A JOB?

just stating the the facts is all.....they get a bum rap....where I am now I wouldnt trade places with them.......how about you???

[DollaBill]

It's not a matter of trading places with them. I'm not trying to break you balls either bro.

I didn't go to college and lived on a can of coca cola and 2 cupcakes for lunch everyday for over a year when I moved out at 18. You get what you bargain for, not what you deserve.

[Ratickle]

Congress bailed out the fat cat financiers and not the auto industry that employs 3,000,000 people??? What sense does that make??

None what so ever. They shouldn't have. But, it's the wall street guys and the bankers that gave them the most money, not the blue collar worker guys.

[Expensive Date]

I am not a fan of bailouts but if I was in position of power I would

LOAN them each 5 billion

Make every new car that gets over 25mpg eligible for a 60% tax deduction over three years

Use part of the stimulus package to make money available for low interest new car loans with a 660 score.

If you like these ideas vote
Sharkey/Palin 2012

[DollaBill]

What is the average monthly burn rate for those guys? collectively or each

[Expensive Date]

I like those ideas and I might vote for Sharkey, but not if he runs with the Moose Shooter. :26:

If you like them that means I have to rethink them:)

[jayboat]

I like those ideas and I might vote for Sharkey, but not if he runs with the Moose Shooter. :26:

He doesn't really wanna run with her. He wants to teach her some new political 'positions'. :drool5:

[Audiofn]

Everyone is hurting these days. While this was my best year ever, next year is shaping up to possibly be my worste! Were is my money? I feel lucky that I am carrying almost no debt in my business and can move around and be creative with myself untill things geto going again. I see one bailout after another and all I see is more and more money that is going to be needed from me to pay for people that thought that things were going to always be roses. People that milked these companies for all they are worth (yes the execs. as well) and now just can not seem to understand why they are in the position that they are in. Anyone called up Ford customer care (or should I say careless) lately? It is a JOKE. Cars that rust, brake rotors that warp, dealerships that look like they have not been updated for the last 50 years..... They just don't get it. A couple million/billion/trillion is not going to solve the cluster fu ck mess that they have put themselves into.

[Ratickle]

Everyone is hurting these days. While this was my best year ever, next year is shaping up to possibly be my worste! Were is my money? I feel lucky that I am carrying almost no debt in my business and can move around and be creative with myself untill things geto going again. I see one bailout after another and all I see is more and more money that is going to be needed from me to pay for people that thought that things were going to always be roses. People that milked these companies for all they are worth (yes the execs. as well) and now just can not seem to understand why they are in the position that they are in. Anyone called up Ford customer care (or should I say careless) lately? It is a JOKE. Cars that rust, brake rotors that warp, dealerships that look like they have not been updated for the last 50 years..... They just don't get it. A couple million/billion/trillion is not going to solve the cluster fu ck mess that they have put themselves into.

I do think Ford is in a position where the family could buy it back and reorganize without the headaches through a Chapter 11.

[Ratickle]

I am not a fan of bailouts but if I was in position of power I would

LOAN them each 5 billion

Make every new car that gets over 25mpg eligible for a 60% tax deduction over three years

Use part of the stimulus package to make money available for low interest new car loans with a 660 score.

If you like these ideas vote
Sharkey/Palin 2012

They are already offering better deals than that, and they are still not selling enough cars to survive. I believe combined, last year they sold 13.5 million vehicles.

[itilldo]

well, dana just offered buy-outs to their engineers,(gm tech center) saying you can take it, if you don't we can't gaurantee your jobs will last long.... now if the automakers need to come up with new platforms, more streamlined mfg. and improve what they have now, aren't the engineers the very people you need??? and we wonder why the big 3 have problems....



Dana plant down the road from us told their salaried folks Monday that they are cutting 15 % out of the front office and also informed them that the plant might be closing.... 200-300 people

Johnson Controls in Cadiz, Ky 22 miles form here is closing in the next month 500-600 people out of work.

[itilldo]

I was sent this email tonight and I checked most of this info and it seems to be true about the closures how things are really going to go down hill and how this effects a lot more than it looks in paper:


I wanted to give everyone a heads up that if you tend to give gift cards around the Holidays, you need to be careful that the cards will be honored after the holidays.

Stores that are planning to close after Christmas are still selling the cards through the holidays even though the cards will be worthless January 1.

There is no law preventing them from doing this. On the contrary, it is referred to as (Bankruptcy Planning). Below is a partial list of stores that you need to be cautious about.


Circuit City (filed Chapter 11)
Ann Taylor- 117 stores nationwide closing
Lane Bryant, Fashion Bug ,and Catherine's to close 150 stores nationwide
Eddie Bauer to close stores 27 stores and more after January
Cache will close all stores
Talbots closing down specialty stores
J. Jill closing all stores (owned by Talbots)
Pacific Sun wear (also owned by Talbots)
GAP closing 85 stores
Footlocker closing 140 stores mo re to close after January
Wickes Furniture closing down
Levitz closing down remaining stores
Bombay closing remaining stores
Zale's closing down 82 stores and 105 after January
Whitehall closing all stores
Piercing Pagoda closing all stores
Disney closing 98 stores and will close more after January.
Home Depot closing 15 stores 1 in NJ ( New Brunswick )
Macys to close 9 stores after January
Linens and Things closing all stores
Movie Galley Closing all stores
Pep Boys Closing 33 stores
Sprint/Nextel closing 133 stores
JC Penney closing a number of stores after January
Ethan Allen closing down 12 stores.
Wilson Leather closing down all stores
Sharper Image closing down all stores
K B Toys closing 356 stores
Loews to close down some stores
Dillard's to close some stores

[Von Bongo]

Use part of the stimulus package to make money available for low interest new car loans with a 660 score.

If you like these ideas vote
Sharkey/Palin 2012
I know your're looking for answers but a 660 credit scores default at a 15% rate and that was in a good economy. That's what the country needs is more bad loans :(

you want good rates you better have a a 750 or better and a down payment...yea, novel idea pay your bills, have some money in the bank get a loan. See too many people are missing the big picture. Easy credit is GONE!

[Expensive Date]

I know your're looking for answers but a 660 credit scores default at a 15% rate and that was in a good economy. That's what the country needs is more bad loans :(

you want good rates you better have a a 750 or better and a down payment...yea, novel idea pay your bills, have some money in the bank get a loan. See too many people are missing the big picture. Easy credit is GONE!


I had no idea that the default rate on a 660 was that high.The tool business is the original buy-here pay here deal and most of my customer base is well below 660.The reason that I do not see that high of a default rate is because I see them every week.
I totally agree that you should not even be able to get a loan with late pays,charge offs on your credit report.

[Cash Bar]

you want good rates you better have a a 750 or better and a down payment...yea, novel idea pay your bills, have some money in the bank get a loan. See too many people are missing the big picture. Easy credit is GONE!

I get the idea, but 750 ?

When I had the highest score of my life(so far), earlier this year, with EVERYTHING the way it should be, I had a 718. :(

Now it's a tick below 700 due to creeping balances. I still highly doubt I'm a serious risk.

[Von Bongo]

Ok I exagerate a bit, I really don't put much stock in credit scores I've seen people with over $100K in credit card debt with 700+ scores, I'm more concerned with the 5 C's of lending. Too bad so much went into 1 C and the remaining 4 pretty much were ignored for the last 7 years. But in all seriousness, times have changed and as you can see, things got to loose.

Minimize unsecured revolving debt, keep your debt ratio under 36%, pay on time and have some capital in reserve and you shouldn't have a problem getting a loan.

[Tommy Gun]

Recall that when Iaccoca got Chrysler its bailout there were no strings attached except for the repayment timeline, and he paid it back early. Now this situation is different, so I think pre-conditions are necessary.

I'm calling my Senators and Congressmen to tell them we need to keep GM Ford and Chrysler and I urge all those who agree with you and me to do the same.

I already wrote to both my senators and my rep...no way, no how, no bailout!

[Tommy Gun]

Its all basic supply and demand; regardless of a bailout, people aren't going to buy cars in this environment. They'll drive'em longer and repair'em. Good for the parts suppliers. We don't need a new car every three years. I don't want to see anyone out of a job, it's time for the big 3 to reorganize like the rest of the companies in America.

[Ratickle]

I know your're looking for answers but a 660 credit scores default at a 15% rate and that was in a good economy. That's what the country needs is more bad loans :(



But the government can set it up as an automatic deduction like taxes. No one would default forever, they always get theirs.

[fund razor]

Asian markets down 7%.

Gonna test that 7,997 low today.

Directly and indirectly a result of this huge concern for US auto segment.
Where is the leadership of the President-elect in this situation? So much of this is psychological, why can't he make a statement or something.... tell people to be calm and start a massive PR campaign to market US products in the world market again.

This sucks. 9/11 sucked... but at least we had leadership at that time.

So we don't bail them out... I accept it.... can somebody at least go spin this as a necessary and healthy correction or something? We need a counterpoint to the henny penny side of the story.

[Offshoredrillin]

Its all basic supply and demand; regardless of a bailout, people aren't going to buy cars in this environment. They'll drive'em longer and repair'em. Good for the parts suppliers. We don't need a new car every three years. I don't want to see anyone out of a job, it's time for the big 3 to reorganize like the rest of the companies in America.
and there ya have it, they have to do a restructure, by doing so, hopefully they will streamline...didnt look good for the big 3 all leaving in seperate private jets yesterday at a cost of 20k each. I just tell customers my film will keep their car looking better longer, as looks like they are going to keep it longer..they say ok, lets do it.

[jayboat]

Where is the leadership of the President-elect in this situation? So much of this is psychological, why can't he make a statement or something.... tell people to be calm and start a massive PR campaign to market US products in the world market again.


Well, the key word there is 'President-elect'...
he's not even in office yet.

If you are really interested in listening to what he has to say, here's his first weekly address (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd8f9Zqap6U) from five days ago.

Maybe our current pretzlenit could make a statement and make us all glad that we won't have to listen to him make statements for much longer. :smash:

[cigdaze]

Alright, a little embellishment maybe...but here are some facts.
Let's take a particular Ford truck plant. A typical UAW worker gets 48 minutes per shift in bathroom breaks, a 45-minute lunch and 2 30 minute breaks. Doing the math, that looks like hmmm: That's about 41 minutes per hour. And after adding in this typical UAW worker's salary, health care, pension, other miscellaneous benefits, he's costing Ford 79 bucks an hour. Cold hard facts. Google it.

Also of note, it's costs about $2000 per big-3 vehicle to pay for all this legacy crap...that's where the competitive advantage is lost.


Sorry - that stereotypical worker left in the 70s......for the last 20 yrs a guy on the line works 50 seconds out of a minute.....8 hrs a day......no air conditioning......wanna trade places??.....after every job you have to hit a button on a keyboard thats linked directly to detroit to signal youve done your job....you cant keep up, you'll get a chittyer job like standing and working over your head underneath the car for 50 sec every minute......they have to force the guys to take overtime.....nobody wants it....too tired at the end of 8hrs......my buddies say when they first started (20 yrs ago) you could work in an area for a year or two and get a "good" job, maybe work up the line and get 10 or 15min to yourself, none of that for years.....now "they all suck".......a guys retires he is never replaced......everyone around him gets more work

[cigdaze]

Poignant Op/Ed from today:

-------------

Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
By MITT ROMNEY
Published: November 18, 2008

Boston

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

[fund razor]

Well, the key word there is 'President-elect'...
he's not even in office yet.

But he was so highly praised for his "handling" of the september market problems. Thought maybe all that leadership just leaking out of every pore might be able to "change" something.

I can wait until Jan 20 if I have to.

[fund razor]

Kind of wish Romney was President Elect.
He is providing leadership.

I saw him talking about the problem this morning.
Thanks for the post Nick.

[DollaBill]

Kind of wish Romney was President Elect.
He is providing leadership.

I saw him talking about the problem this morning.
Thanks for the post Nick.

I would have voted for Romney in a heartbeat, but I didn't even get a chance at the primaries. wtf

[Audiofn]

Once the credit crunch hit prior to the elections that is when it was lights out for McCain and everyone was WISHING that Romney was the man. He could have CRUSHED Obama in the debates. Oh well maybe we will have a chance in 4 more years.... THey should start running any day now if last election is any indication.... :ack2::ack2:

[DollaBill]

McCain screwed up by not appointing Guilliani and Romney at that time. They would've been unbeatable, even with the pathetic disaster of a campaign McCain AND the RNC ran. Talk about management that needs to be replaced....

[fund razor]

Romney needs to STFU. He has nowhere near the business acumen his father had. He would have run GM into the ground. All subMitt can do is make babies, slop at the public trough all his life and rail against the unions.

Wow.

[DollaBill]

Romney needs to STFU. He has nowhere near the business acumen his father had. He would have run GM into the ground. All subMitt can do is make babies, slop at the public trough all his life and rail against the unions.

I'll take Romney on crack over Obama:seeya:

[Sea-Dated]

I'll take Romney on crack over Obama:seeya:

Ditto

[Playn]

Romney needs to STFU. He has nowhere near the business acumen his father had. He would have run GM into the ground. All subMitt can do is make babies, slop at the public trough all his life and rail against the unions.

wow.......still clueless arent ya.

[BUIZILLA]

Romney needs to STFU. He has nowhere near the business acumen his father had. He would have run GM into the ground. All subMitt can do is make babies, slop at the public trough all his life and rail against the unions. he's still light years ahead of you isn't he... :03:

[Playn]

I'm in favor of help if it comes with conditions. There was a post in another forum that pretty much echos my opinion of what needs to happen.

"Concessions by the unions are a form of investment in the well being of the company. Although they already made some concessions in the last round of contract negotiations, it's clear that more must be given to save the companies. I STRONGLY oppose bailouts, however under the following minimum circumstances I will hold my nose and hope for the best:

1. STOP ALL BAILOUTS TO WALL STREET FINANCIAL FIRMS. If we are going to provide assistance to any industry, it should be the manufacturers, who actually create real wealth and do serve a national security service (i.e. produce military equipment in times of war, etc.). The financial sector will solve its own problems just fine without our tax dollars. I think it's starting to become obvious that the bailouts aren't having the desired effect anyway, and I remain very skeptical that they ever will.

2. The US government must make dollar for dollar budget reductions to cover the cost of the bailouts (loans) to the auto industry. There can be no trickery with the federal budget (such as off budget accounting for the costs, etc.). This must be a real budget reduction that can be verified and measured.

3. The executive management and boards of all auto companies that take government loans must resign. They failed in their stewardship of the companies and they must step down so that more competent management can take over.

4. The UAW must take further wage and benefit reductions, perhaps on a permanent basis. This includes retired workers who are receiving pension and health benefits paid by the auto companies. If taxpayers are going to put their skin in the deal, so must the union workers.

5. All non-union staff must take wage and benefit reductions. They have to share the pain with the UAW.

6. The new executive management staff must agree to dramatically reduced salaries and bonuses paid via stock options. This way, if they succeed in turning the company around, they can realize the rewards for their efforts. If they fail, they don't get unjustly enriched. Like the union and non-union workers, these guys need to share the risk and the pain.

7. Outsourcing to foreign countries must be discouraged. I don't think we can prohibit the practice, but we can provide incentives to promote US based production of parts, assembly, etc. to help bring that work back home. Perhaps a formula for reducing the interest rate on the government loans, or some carefully crafted tax benefits. It's not an easy issue to address, but there must be something in the loan package to motivate the auto companies to keep the money in the family, so to speak.

8. DO NOT let the government dictate how the auto companies are to be run. Transparency and oversight is appropriate until the money is fully repaid, but to let the government decide how to manage a private company is just plain insane. Quite honestly, if the government managed these companies, they would have been bankrupt decades ago.

I'd love to see those in Congress who are responsible for this mess lose their jobs, too. But, they won't and I've come to peace with that fact.

These are just the larger points in my plan, and there are obviously numerous other details, but without the above deal points I can't see myself ever supporting the bailouts.

In short, if we truly feel like the loans to the auto industry are as essential as claimed, then we should be willing to make major sacrifices as a nation, and as individuals, to help save the Big 3. If, however, everybody wants a painless solution, then we aren't sincere in our commitment to the cause. There can be no painless solution; there will be the loss of some government services, or reductions in wages/benefits. But, if claims are true that the demise of the auto industry is eminent if the loans aren't provided, then I assume some sacrifices are worthwhile to avoid the utter destruction we are promised if the Big 3 fail. We need to choose the lesser evil, right? Seems like a clear choice to me, if you believe we must save the auto companies."


Quite frankly I'm fed up with all these givaways to everybody. We have done an injustace to our children and grandchildren who will be paying for this missmanagement.

These loans need to be repaid with interest.

To go with the above I would like to see termination of the CEO's without their severance packages.

I want upper management to take a 25% pay cut across the board. No bonuses or golden parachutes if they decide to leave.

Middle management, staff, and labor take a 10% cut across the board. No bonuses or severance if they decide to leave.

Retired auto workers take a 10% reduction in their retirement income. The legacy costs are huge and are a major part of the problem. The days of 30 and out are long gone. If the company come out of this then pay them back in stock.

I'd like to see the UAW "invest" some of their cash in the auto industry as well.


The bottom line is that these companies want the US taxpayer to become an "investor" in their company. If that is going to be the case then there needs to be MAJOR changes top to bottom.

[phragle]

I see the reasoning, but I am just uncomfortable with sacking the retiree's.. they had a signed contract with the mfg's they came to work and did their jobs over the years. they wholly fulfilled their end of the deal. whether or not it was a good deal is irrelevant. If you make a deal with someone for labor at an agreed upon compensation, that labor obligation is fulfilled, you pay up. how would it go over if I ordered a new outerlimits, they built it to my specifications, I used the hell out of it, then said " I'm having a tough time financially, so I am only going to pay you 15 cent's on the dollar, sorry guys, but it's a tough world, Oh and I need every other boat owner in the country to send me some money because the motors and drives need rebuilt now an I don't have any money" I'm sorry if the big 3 can' afford to pay the retirement obligations and remain profitable, but they are obligations none the less, time to fold, sell assets and put the proceeds in trust to meet the obligations of retired workers.

[fund razor]

he's still light years ahead of you isn't he... :03:

No.... Laughing Cat and Catmando are much, much smarter, powerful, more connected, and influential than "mutt."

[socalstone]

I say no to the Big3 bailout. Just like I said no to the Financial Bailout.
I don't even think bailout is the right term. All they will do at best is buy some time.
Then fail later, file chapter 11, get there chit in order and then sink or swim.
Why not let it happen now and save the money? where does it end?

Reminds me of a friend 20 years ago. He got in over his head in credit card debt.
His Dad bailed him out.

2 years later it happened again. Dad bailed him again.

Hard to believe but it happened a 3rd time. His dad said no bail out.

Guess what? he learned!
He filed bankruptcy. Cut back his spending. Got back on his feet by himself.
It wasn't easy but he did it.


Don't mean to sound callous. I know it will all get much worse before it gets better. just my 2cents

[Cash Bar]

Better the Mutt in the White House than the Mitt.


I can't believe you have survived this long in Texas. :leaving:

[pullmytrigger]

Alright, a little embellishment maybe...but here are some facts.
Let's take a particular Ford truck plant. A typical UAW worker gets 48 minutes per shift in bathroom breaks, a 45-minute lunch and 2 30 minute breaks. Doing the math, that looks like hmmm: That's about 41 minutes per hour. And after adding in this typical UAW worker's salary, health care, pension, other miscellaneous benefits, he's costing Ford 79 bucks an hour. Cold hard facts. Google it.

Oh Goooooogle it......ok........and oh yeah everything thats written on a contract goes down exactly as its written in the real world.........oooookayyyyyy:boxing_smiley:

And sorry......I cant comment whatsoever about what goes on at Ford, I have no idea....(btw another common misconception.....that all UAW contracts are rubber stamps of each other....theres signifigant differences).......
I called my bro tonight but he's working nights (building Impalas) but the last ime I talked to him about it he said they get 2 10min breaks per shift and a 19 or something minute lunch per shift, thats it......virtually no bathroom breaks......why?, because that would require a relief man (to do your job while the line keeps moving) and their isnt any because theres not even close to enough for Everyone to get a break.......in the end....you hold it.......I'll call him tomorrow during the day and get the real deal......you know.....just so you know.......

[Cash Bar]

I called my bro tonight but he's working nights (building Impalas) but the last ime I talked to him about it he said they get 2 10min breaks per shift and a 19 or something lunch


Just a question, as I have no idea.

Do the Canadian and US plants work under the same UAW guidelines?

Maybe that would make a difference.

[pullmytrigger]

Oh and back on the sales front.......
Like...how can a company that can be so dead on the mark and leading edge with the Corvette not sell anything else other than big trucks??
The retro thing......GM comes out with the HHR like 5 yrs after the PT Cruiser.....missed that boat.
Ford leads the way with the new retro Mustang, now the Challenger is out.....are we ever going to see that Camaro?????......its STILL not out......not exactly leading the pack

[phragle]

GM comes out with the HHR like 5 yrs after the PT Cruiser.....missed that boat.

that was the same guys that designed the aztec, they were drunk at the bar, saw a pt cruiser in the lot and said "we need an answer to that", the other one replied "coming up with something original will cut into our drinking time" to which the first said " naw, we take an out of focus pik of it and call it a day" these are the same people that designed that fugly suv that looked like a minivan with a truck nose stuck on it.
the only thing worse than these designs is that fact that someone approved them for production...

[boatme]

We should NOT bail out the car companies

I sold to the auto industry for 20 years an I have watched this coming on and it has been coming along time. The auto industry has been strong arming suppliers and the public for years. I represented two companies that were suppliers to the automotive companies that had the customer go banko and reorganize (Teir One to the Big three) they told us "sorry we owe you all this money but we need you to forget we owe you (one for $200,000 and the other for $500,000) but continue to supply us parts or we will have to close"
Both companies sucked it up and continued to supply to the customer on COD.
This worked right up until the customer found someone that would give them terms making our parts (translation someone that they hadn’t left holding the bag) and then they moved the work.
Now not only were the companies i sold for left never seeing what was owed to them, but they also lost the ability to make up that loss through continued sales. The work moved basically because the customer wanted to string out payments again.

I was paid on straight Commission for the work i brought in, so i not only lost all the commission on $700,000 but also lost any future commissions on the work going forward

The companies i sold for were able to weather these losses but many companies that supplied to the big three and the tier one and two companies had to go under as the result of these guys leaving them hanging and they could not stay afloat without the money owed

I went to a meeting called by one of these companies that didn’t pay us. They owed 17 suppliers in excess of 47 million dollars that they wanted to be forgotten, and have everyone continue to provide to them parts so they could continue to stay alive themselves. Two companies represented in that meeting that were suppliers, had to file for bankrupt right after the meeting and no one helped them out. The big car guys had no sympathy for them

Trust me i watched the automotive companies drive there suppliers into bankruptcy for years and no one offered a hand

We need to lower the home owners payments, and prop up this country from the bottom up , not pull it up from the top and try to drag everyone back to the surface

Bailing out the auto industry is just rewarding bad behavior plain and simple

Three of the reasons the car companies are in this position

1) Bad management
2) Behind the times with there products
3) Unions

Non of this will change by handing them money

Once you give them money then what ???? Who is going to buy the product ??? who is going to watch the guys spending the money???? Do we really trust the clowns that got the car companies in trouble to manage the money?? If we bail out the car guys, will we demand the resignation (without golden parachutes) of the top management??? OF COURSE NOT! So why do we want to help these guys

We are better to renegotiate home loans to keep people in there houses, and lower payments so they can afford to buy cars and other things. That way the car companies can use there own money to develop what they should have been working on years ago (Japanese have seen this and have many more efficient vehicles)

We bailed out the banks and AGI and gave them no rules to spend by so they continue to act badly.
The credit card companies are now crying fowl and want financial help. If we do help them will we charge them 30% interest and call them 2 minutes after there payment is due and tack on more fees?? OF COURSE NOT!
Our government is to stupid to run like a business.
No regular bank will finance the auto makers, what makes the government think they know better about a good or bad financial risk. Isn't it funny the banks wont help bail out the car companies, but the government will bail out the banks and the car guys

American Express was not a commercial bank so they could not benefit from the bail out. They applied to become a commercial lender and our government said ok, then they put there hand out for there share of bail out money

Now the city of Detroit wants a bail out, not the car company, the CITY!!

My personal one man company could use an infusion of money. Do I claim I am a commercial bank? Where is my bail out money?

We need a complete flushing of how we do business in this country, and it is happening!! No one is hurt more by all of this than me, but i see the need for the collapse so we can change the way we all act in our spending and in our free wheeling credit spending. (Yea I have been guilty of this as well) Yet we want our country to encourage more bad behavior and teach our kids that no matter what someone will pull there butts our of it

If we bail out the car companies will I be able to get a car at cost since I am one of the people that helped to pay for the bailout ?? When i call the bank and say "hey can i get a loan for this car i want to buy?" and they tell me no! Then what? I helped bail the banks and the car companies and still can't borrow for a car and everyone thinks bailouts are good.

This is rich mans welfare!! Joe public will not get the same type of consideration from banks or car companies when they need help so why should we all help them

We need to see the forest from the trees! Decisions need to be made as to what is best for us long haul, not what makes us feel better short term. Every time a business guy runs for President (See Perot or Forbes) they are shot down because they tell us what we should do, not what we want to hear.
We need to do what is right for our country, not what fixes the problems for the short term.

I am confused why this country isn't screaming for cutting government by one half to save money, and stop the bail outs and start the cuts IN HOUSE.
Why do we need two senators for each state?? Obama and McCain proved we don't need them because they weren't doing there real jobs for the last two years

The business model for the car companies have not changed so why give them money to continue the bad behavior I have yet to hear any one of the Big three talk about their plan to spend the money

All the big wigs from the big three are in Washington this week. Did they get there flying commercial?? No Way!
They aren’t even smart enough to know the world is watching and be economical about there travel They all flew in on expensive private planes

By the way I am broke and struggling like the rest of the world but I base my opinions on what the country needs not on what I need

Sorry to burst the bubbles but a bail out is only going to prolong the inevitable not fix it


I have now put on my Kevlar underwear because i am sure this will bring me a hailstorm of controversy.

I have looked the devil in the face (Auto companies) and the devil will not provide any sympathy for those who want a car and there credit is not as good as it used to be because of the economic downturn. The auto industry credit report looks like crap right now, and they expect billions of dollars even though the banks wont loan them money because of there rating

I wish this country luck but we have not seen the bottom yet

[BUIZILLA]

boatme...

one day, i'd like to buy you a beer...

[cigdaze]

Oh Goooooogle it......ok........and oh yeah everything thats written on a contract goes down exactly as its written in the real world.........oooookayyyyyy:boxing_smiley:

And sorry......I cant comment whatsoever about what goes on at Ford, I have no idea....(btw another common misconception.....that all UAW contracts are rubber stamps of each other....theres signifigant differences).......
I called my bro tonight but he's working nights (building Impalas) but the last ime I talked to him about it he said they get 2 10min breaks per shift and a 19 or something minute lunch per shift, thats it......virtually no bathroom breaks......why?, because that would require a relief man (to do your job while the line keeps moving) and their isnt any because theres not even close to enough for Everyone to get a break.......in the end....you hold it.......I'll call him tomorrow during the day and get the real deal......you know.....just so you know.......

Ahhhh...so, all plants and all UAW contracts are exactly like the one your brother's at, must be right...oooookkkkkaaaaayyyyy.

[boatme]

boatme...

one day, i'd like to buy you a beer...


I tend to rant but I can not believe we don’t see this

If I want money for my company and I go to the banks I have to have a FULL BLOWN business plan in hand or they won’t talk to me.

The car guys go in looking for 25 billion dollars with no plan, and a "trust me" attitude

Their arrogance is reason alone to send the Big three packing

[jayboat]

I have to have a FULL BLOW business plan in hand


Does that involve hookers? :sifone:

Seriously, great post.

[pullmytrigger]

Just so you know......I spoke to my bro yesterday he said in 8hrs he gets (2) 10min breaks and a 20 min lunch, hesays since you only get a 20 min lunch and the plant is SO huge you really only get a 10 min lunch because its a 5min walk to the caffateria one way......

The line starts at 6:30am on days.....a car comes down the line one every minute.....they re up to working 53 to 54 sec a min now......he says when he first started 24 yrs ago they worked 43 to 44 sec a min and their quality (JD Power) is much better now than then....in fact GM Oshawa has the #1 and #3 quality ratings of any plant in north and south America and that includes any manufacter including Toy/Nissan/BMW/MB.......he says that anyone who doesnt believe it is quite welcome to come to the plant and check it out he will arrange a tour (as employees can do) and "they can give us a hand"

I read him the bit about the Ford plant he says that he can say for sure that "no where in GM is like that!!!" as GM pitts plant against plant(quality,line speed, number of employees on payroll etc) and community against community (local tax breaks) when it comes time for the plants to "bid" on the right to build a car(or truck) for a specified model run, usaually 3 to 4yrs.......he said a plant like that Ford plant "would have been closed a long time ago in GM, no question about it....."

not breaking any balls, thats what he said......just so you know

[fund razor]

Trust me it's been hard. Old man McInsane took Texas but Obama won my city so that's a small consolation...

Old man McInsane?
From YOU??

Kind of ironic, no?

[Offshore Ginger]

Chapter # 11 and restructure, the boy's and girls who work for the big three have had a long and good ride for many years . I think it is time for each and everyone to get a reality check .:)

[Offshore Ginger]

I tend to rant but I can not believe we don’t see this

If I want money for my company and I go to the banks I have to have a FULL BLOWN business plan in hand or they won’t talk to me.

The car guys go in looking for 25 billion dollars with no plan, and a "trust me" attitude

Their arrogance is reason alone to send the Big three packing I agree Mark and then blow 20 k each attending meetings using there private jets...................................:ack2:

[MarylandMark]

I'm in a union-

We work 60 minutes every hour, get (2) 15 minute breaks per hour shift and lunch is on us (6-2:30 = 8.5 hours and get paid for 8). I feel violated!

[Ratickle]

We should NOT bail out the car companies. Bailing out the auto industry is just rewarding bad behavior plain and simple

(Japanese have seen this and have many more efficient vehicles)

Our government is to stupid to run like a business.



their quality (JD Power) is much better now than then....in fact GM Oshawa has the #1 and #3 quality ratings of any plant in north and south America and that includes any manufacter including Toy/Nissan/BMW/MB.......


We should not bail out anyone. Chapter 11 law allows for them to bail out themselves under a structured oversight plan.

Actually GM has the largest fleet of high milage vehicles.

Our government is too stupid and corrupt to run, period.....

And the independents also rate their cars in the top ten in quality.

[RLJ676]

As someone in the industry (I work for GM, not UAW), it is amazing how little people know.

I'd like to make a few points.

-This is not a product driven crisis, a UAW or cost structure crisis, etc. This is a FINANCIAL MARKET issue. There is no cash to borrow, for the OEM's or their customers. This has clearly killed revenue. Last year sales were over 17 MILLION, this year we are looking at under 11 MILLION. Imagine that kind of revenue loss on your company, now make it a huge mfg company that requires cash, and tons of it? Now take away ALL credit markets, and this is exactly what you get. The banks caused this entire problem, and are the ones getting bailed out?

-Like I mentioned, the cost structure has been improved dramatically over the past few years, that is where all the cash reserves have gone (buyouts, etc)
-UAW size is down over 50% (and this isn't the 70's, they work hard and have quality). Further, they will by 2010 be competitive in costs with transplants.
-White collar costs are down over 40% since 2000 as well
-The executives have already cut their bonuses, which is a huge portion of pay. There are no raises or bonuses for anyone as well.

-To people that claim it's capitalism, let them fall. This IS NOT A CAPITALISTIC playing field.
-The imports all have large support from their governments. It comes from R&D money, currency manipulation, gov't healthcare.....etc.
-We are the only country freely letting foreigners sell here, (if we had Japan's policies we wouldn't be having this conversation, along with the fact that restricted market gives them profits with no global competition)

-The impact of failure is huge, and will cost far more than a LOAN of $25 B

-The products are world class now, costs are in line and the future is promising. The issue here is purely one of the financial markets, and their failures impacting Detroit and its customers ability to borrow.

Please check here for more info, as I tend to just get incredibly aggrevated with the avg "American's" disdain for Detroit and ignorance of what has really happened here.
www.gmfactsandfiction.com

[boatme]

As someone in the industry (I work for GM, not UAW), it is amazing how little people know.

I'd like to make a few points.

-This is not a product driven crisis, a UAW or cost structure crisis, etc. This is a FINANCIAL MARKET issue. There is no cash to borrow, for the OEM's or their customers. This has clearly killed revenue. Last year sales were over 17 MILLION, this year we are looking at under 11 MILLION. Imagine that kind of revenue loss on your company, now make it a huge mfg company that requires cash, and tons of it? Now take away ALL credit markets, and this is exactly what you get. The banks caused this entire problem, and are the ones getting bailed out?

-Like I mentioned, the cost structure has been improved dramatically over the past few years, that is where all the cash reserves have gone (buyouts, etc)
-UAW size is down over 50% (and this isn't the 70's, they work hard and have quality). Further, they will by 2010 be competitive in costs with transplants.
-White collar costs are down over 40% since 2000 as well
-The executives have already cut their bonuses, which is a huge portion of pay. There are no raises or bonuses for anyone as well.

-To people that claim it's capitalism, let them fall. This IS NOT A CAPITALISTIC playing field.
-The imports all have large support from their governments. It comes from R&D money, currency manipulation, gov't healthcare.....etc.
-We are the only country freely letting foreigners sell here, (if we had Japan's policies we wouldn't be having this conversation, along with the fact that restricted market gives them profits with no global competition)

-The impact of failure is huge, and will cost far more than a LOAN of $25 B

-The products are world class now, costs are in line and the future is promising. The issue here is purely one of the financial markets, and their failures impacting Detroit and its customers ability to borrow.

Please check here for more info, as I tend to just get incredibly aggrevated with the avg "American's" disdain for Detroit and ignorance of what has really happened here.
www.gmfactsandfiction.com

As I posted early on, I am not uninformed. I worked selling to the big three and the tier one and tier two suppliers (stampings, Plastics, Die castings ect…)

Take a look at my previous posts on this subject

I will not repeat all I wrote except to say I have seen how it works on the inside and have worked with the guys on the floor all the way up to SR management and you are wrong so wrong. I also sold too many of the foreign car companies such as Nippondenso, Takada, Ogihara, Yazaki and others I have a better prospective on this than 80% of the country

There is absolutely no reason for us to bail out the car companies. Let them go banko and restructure. If they go banko they are not going under. (one might)This is a scare tactic they keep propagating to the general public. They will just restructure and continue on.

Unfortunately going banko will kill allot of suppliers, but they are already strung out long way. The big three strong arm suppliers dragging out terms 90 days 120 days or longer (This is standard practice for the big three) Many suppliers carry as little as a few thousand on the books always up to millions while begging every month for some payment. I spent a lot of time not selling, but trying to collect payment on monthly shipments we made to my customers. They were ALWAYS behind on payment

The suppliers are going to go under anyway, and hopefully this will give those that remain the power to start holding the Big three accountable which will make the tier one and tier two more accountable to further back suppliers, since many suppliers addoped the “wait to pay” stance to there suppliers because there customer (Big Three) was doing it to them

Yes It all trickles down, but it trickles down BADLEY


I said it before, I have looked directly into the eyes of the devil (auto companies) and they are selling all of us a bunch of crap. Time for a cleansing and a reality check for the arrogant Unions and arrogant management It is not going to be pretty and only hurt even what I do today. We need to stop getting what we want, and start to realize what is needed

If I walked into a meeting unprepared to explain what we do, and how I was going to do it, in order for someone to give me money for a project, I would get tossed out on my ear
Yet that is what the big three did last week. Trust me I would not get a second chance if I pulled that crap. You only get one first impression and the arrogant BIG THREE proved they can’t do what needs to be done and that is to HAVE A PLAN

By By Big Guys time to reap what you sow

[boatme]

This was my first post on this subject over a week ago (for those that missed it)


We should NOT bail out the car companies

I sold to the auto industry for 20 years an I have watched this coming on and it has been coming along time. The auto industry has been strong arming suppliers and the public for years. I represented two companies that were suppliers to the automotive companies that had the customer go banko and reorganize (Teir One to the Big three) they told us "sorry we owe you all this money but we need you to forget we owe you (one for $200,000 and the other for $500,000) but continue to supply us parts or we will have to close"
Both companies sucked it up and continued to supply to the customer on COD.
This worked right up until the customer found someone that would give them terms making our parts (translation someone that they hadn’t left holding the bag) and then they moved the work.
Now not only were the companies i sold for left never seeing what was owed to them, but they also lost the ability to make up that loss through continued sales. The work moved basically because the customer wanted to string out payments again.

I was paid on straight Commission for the work i brought in, so i not only lost all the commission on $700,000 but also lost any future commissions on the work going forward

The companies i sold for were able to weather these losses but many companies that supplied to the big three and the tier one and two companies had to go under as the result of these guys leaving them hanging and they could not stay afloat without the money owed

I went to a meeting called by one of these companies that didn’t pay us. They owed 17 suppliers in excess of 47 million dollars that they wanted to be forgotten, and have everyone continue to provide to them parts so they could continue to stay alive themselves. Two companies represented in that meeting that were suppliers, had to file for bankrupt right after the meeting and no one helped them out. The big car guys had no sympathy for them

Trust me i watched the automotive companies drive there suppliers into bankruptcy for years and no one offered a hand

We need to lower the home owners payments, and prop up this country from the bottom up , not pull it up from the top and try to drag everyone back to the surface

Bailing out the auto industry is just rewarding bad behavior plain and simple

Three of the reasons the car companies are in this position

1) Bad management
2) Behind the times with there products
3) Unions

Non of this will change by handing them money

Once you give them money then what ???? Who is going to buy the product ??? who is going to watch the guys spending the money???? Do we really trust the clowns that got the car companies in trouble to manage the money?? If we bail out the car guys, will we demand the resignation (without golden parachutes) of the top management??? OF COURSE NOT! So why do we want to help these guys

We are better to renegotiate home loans to keep people in there houses, and lower payments so they can afford to buy cars and other things. That way the car companies can use there own money to develop what they should have been working on years ago (Japanese have seen this and have many more efficient vehicles)

We bailed out the banks and AGI and gave them no rules to spend by so they continue to act badly.
The credit card companies are now crying fowl and want financial help. If we do help them will we charge them 30% interest and call them 2 minutes after there payment is due and tack on more fees?? OF COURSE NOT!
Our government is to stupid to run like a business.
No regular bank will finance the auto makers, what makes the government think they know better about a good or bad financial risk. Isn't it funny the banks wont help bail out the car companies, but the government will bail out the banks and the car guys

American Express was not a commercial bank so they could not benefit from the bail out. They applied to become a commercial lender and our government said ok, then they put there hand out for there share of bail out money

Now the city of Detroit wants a bail out, not the car company, the CITY!!

My personal one man company could use an infusion of money. Do I claim I am a commercial bank? Where is my bail out money?

We need a complete flushing of how we do business in this country, and it is happening!! No one is hurt more by all of this than me, but i see the need for the collapse so we can change the way we all act in our spending and in our free wheeling credit spending. (Yea I have been guilty of this as well) Yet we want our country to encourage more bad behavior and teach our kids that no matter what someone will pull there butts our of it

If we bail out the car companies will I be able to get a car at cost since I am one of the people that helped to pay for the bailout ?? When i call the bank and say "hey can i get a loan for this car i want to buy?" and they tell me no! Then what? I helped bail the banks and the car companies and still can't borrow for a car and everyone thinks bailouts are good.

This is rich mans welfare!! Joe public will not get the same type of consideration from banks or car companies when they need help so why should we all help them

We need to see the forest from the trees! Decisions need to be made as to what is best for us long haul, not what makes us feel better short term. Every time a business guy runs for President (See Perot or Forbes) they are shot down because they tell us what we should do, not what we want to hear.
We need to do what is right for our country, not what fixes the problems for the short term.

I am confused why this country isn't screaming for cutting government by one half to save money, and stop the bail outs and start the cuts IN HOUSE.
Why do we need two senators for each state?? Obama and McCain proved we don't need them because they weren't doing there real jobs for the last two years

The business model for the car companies have not changed so why give them money to continue the bad behavior I have yet to hear any one of the Big three talk about their plan to spend the money

All the big wigs from the big three are in Washington this week. Did they get there flying commercial?? No Way!
They aren’t even smart enough to know the world is watching and be economical about there travel They all flew in on expensive private planes

By the way I am broke and struggling like the rest of the world but I base my opinions on what the country needs not on what I need

Sorry to burst the bubbles but a bail out is only going to prolong the inevitable not fix it


I have now put on my Kevlar underwear because i am sure this will bring me a hailstorm of controversy.

I have looked the devil in the face (Auto companies) and the devil will not provide any sympathy for those who want a car and there credit is not as good as it used to be because of the economic downturn. The auto industry credit report looks like crap right now, and they expect billions of dollars even though the banks wont loan them money because of there rating

I wish this country luck but we have not seen the bottom yet

[boatme]

ahhhh yeaaaa

[MarylandMark]

You're a Republican in a union??? Wow just wow.

Yep! My union (CWA) sucks. I am actually an "agency fee payer". I resigned from the union but Maryland is not a right-to-work state so I have to pay the sorry SOB's anyway.

I say scrap all the unions!!! If you are worth a compensation package (pay, benefits, etc) you don't need a union to get it for you.

I had a better compensation package when I was at MCI (pre-scandal and pre-Verizon buying them) than I do now in a union. Phone companies are a "utility" and regulated by the Feds which means there aren't many places to work for. Made my bed and laying in it but which I could work harder to do better for myself. Don't take that as I'm unhappy- free medical/dental, work 7 miles from home, 6 figure pay w/OT, average 23 hour work week, etc. Life is good- but could be better and I'm willing to work for it but picked a career where I don't have many options to do so.

Union holding a working man down!

[RLJ676]

This was my first post on this subject over a week ago (for those that missed it)


We should NOT bail out the car companies

I sold to the auto industry for 20 years an I have watched this coming on and it has been coming along time. The auto industry has been strong arming suppliers and the public for years. I represented two companies that were suppliers to the automotive companies that had the customer go banko and reorganize (Teir One to the Big three) they told us "sorry we owe you all this money but we need you to forget we owe you (one for $200,000 and the other for $500,000) but continue to supply us parts or we will have to close"
Both companies sucked it up and continued to supply to the customer on COD.
This worked right up until the customer found someone that would give them terms making our parts (translation someone that they hadn’t left holding the bag) and then they moved the work.
Now not only were the companies i sold for left never seeing what was owed to them, but they also lost the ability to make up that loss through continued sales. The work moved basically because the customer wanted to string out payments again.

I was paid on straight Commission for the work i brought in, so i not only lost all the commission on $700,000 but also lost any future commissions on the work going forward

The companies i sold for were able to weather these losses but many companies that supplied to the big three and the tier one and two companies had to go under as the result of these guys leaving them hanging and they could not stay afloat without the money owed

I went to a meeting called by one of these companies that didn’t pay us. They owed 17 suppliers in excess of 47 million dollars that they wanted to be forgotten, and have everyone continue to provide to them parts so they could continue to stay alive themselves. Two companies represented in that meeting that were suppliers, had to file for bankrupt right after the meeting and no one helped them out. The big car guys had no sympathy for them

Trust me i watched the automotive companies drive there suppliers into bankruptcy for years and no one offered a hand

We need to lower the home owners payments, and prop up this country from the bottom up , not pull it up from the top and try to drag everyone back to the surface

Bailing out the auto industry is just rewarding bad behavior plain and simple

Three of the reasons the car companies are in this position

1) Bad management
2) Behind the times with there products
3) Unions

Non of this will change by handing them money

Once you give them money then what ???? Who is going to buy the product ??? who is going to watch the guys spending the money???? Do we really trust the clowns that got the car companies in trouble to manage the money?? If we bail out the car guys, will we demand the resignation (without golden parachutes) of the top management??? OF COURSE NOT! So why do we want to help these guys

We are better to renegotiate home loans to keep people in there houses, and lower payments so they can afford to buy cars and other things. That way the car companies can use there own money to develop what they should have been working on years ago (Japanese have seen this and have many more efficient vehicles)

We bailed out the banks and AGI and gave them no rules to spend by so they continue to act badly.
The credit card companies are now crying fowl and want financial help. If we do help them will we charge them 30% interest and call them 2 minutes after there payment is due and tack on more fees?? OF COURSE NOT!
Our government is to stupid to run like a business.
No regular bank will finance the auto makers, what makes the government think they know better about a good or bad financial risk. Isn't it funny the banks wont help bail out the car companies, but the government will bail out the banks and the car guys

American Express was not a commercial bank so they could not benefit from the bail out. They applied to become a commercial lender and our government said ok, then they put there hand out for there share of bail out money

Now the city of Detroit wants a bail out, not the car company, the CITY!!

My personal one man company could use an infusion of money. Do I claim I am a commercial bank? Where is my bail out money?

We need a complete flushing of how we do business in this country, and it is happening!! No one is hurt more by all of this than me, but i see the need for the collapse so we can change the way we all act in our spending and in our free wheeling credit spending. (Yea I have been guilty of this as well) Yet we want our country to encourage more bad behavior and teach our kids that no matter what someone will pull there butts our of it

If we bail out the car companies will I be able to get a car at cost since I am one of the people that helped to pay for the bailout ?? When i call the bank and say "hey can i get a loan for this car i want to buy?" and they tell me no! Then what? I helped bail the banks and the car companies and still can't borrow for a car and everyone thinks bailouts are good.

This is rich mans welfare!! Joe public will not get the same type of consideration from banks or car companies when they need help so why should we all help them

We need to see the forest from the trees! Decisions need to be made as to what is best for us long haul, not what makes us feel better short term. Every time a business guy runs for President (See Perot or Forbes) they are shot down because they tell us what we should do, not what we want to hear.
We need to do what is right for our country, not what fixes the problems for the short term.

I am confused why this country isn't screaming for cutting government by one half to save money, and stop the bail outs and start the cuts IN HOUSE.
Why do we need two senators for each state?? Obama and McCain proved we don't need them because they weren't doing there real jobs for the last two years

The business model for the car companies have not changed so why give them money to continue the bad behavior I have yet to hear any one of the Big three talk about their plan to spend the money

All the big wigs from the big three are in Washington this week. Did they get there flying commercial?? No Way!
They aren’t even smart enough to know the world is watching and be economical about there travel They all flew in on expensive private planes

By the way I am broke and struggling like the rest of the world but I base my opinions on what the country needs not on what I need

Sorry to burst the bubbles but a bail out is only going to prolong the inevitable not fix it


I have now put on my Kevlar underwear because i am sure this will bring me a hailstorm of controversy.

I have looked the devil in the face (Auto companies) and the devil will not provide any sympathy for those who want a car and there credit is not as good as it used to be because of the economic downturn. The auto industry credit report looks like crap right now, and they expect billions of dollars even though the banks wont loan them money because of there rating

I wish this country luck but we have not seen the bottom yet

Yeah, I'll trust "your expertise" since you worked in sales for tier III's or whatever as opposed to someone who's worked in various aspects for the OEM's and currently knows the industry.

You're "3 issues" are so off the mark it's not even funny.
1. Mgmt is new in 2/3 and Ford and GM have lead MAJOR RESTRUCTURING already, cutting costs by half and improving product at the same time.
2. Products behind the times??? Stick to boats, because it is OBVIOUS you are not familiar with Detroit's current reality with good products (CTS, CTS-V, Malibu, G8, Fusion, Edge, and the coming products which are common knowledge are already critically acclaimed.
3. The unions, while expensive, have been reduced in size by 50%, and as I stated, will be competitive with transplants by 2010. The problem is the burden of the retirees from a time when there were far fewer competitors and the Big 3 held all market share. Do you think it's fair they should not recieve their retirements now for some reason?????

You clearly didn't READ my post. Your post is based on YOUR experience with some suppliers that went under, so that is how business is done? That makes no sense, and neither does your whole post.

First, bankruptcy DOES NOT WORK for an OEM like a supplier. OEM's sell to the public, who expect a warranty. Survey's indicate at least 80% of customers won't buy from a bankrupt automaker, how do you think that would enable emerging, with no revenue?

Next, you ramble on about the failure of the BANK bailouts? How is that related, other than the fact Wall St caused this issue, and after being bailed out still isn't offering lending? This bridge loan is a different animal than the financial sector bailouts, and is meant to provide liquidity until the banks will start loaning again.

Further, keeping the millions that rely on the industry working IS rebuilding from the bottom, and keeping people off unemployment and paying their mortgages. This isn't a CEO issue, as those guys are set for life. They are fighting for the middle class working for them.

In all, your post really had nothing to do with the isses at hand, and seems more like a bitter remark from someone who was burnt by a bankrupt supplier.

[boatme]

Yeah, I'll trust "your expertise" since you worked in sales for tier III's or whatever as opposed to someone who's worked in various aspects for the OEM's and currently knows the industry.

You're "3 issues" are so off the mark it's not even funny.
1. Mgmt is new in 2/3 and Ford and GM have lead MAJOR RESTRUCTURING already, cutting costs by half and improving product at the same time.
2. Products behind the times??? Stick to boats, because it is OBVIOUS you are not familiar with Detroit's current reality with good products (CTS, CTS-V, Malibu, G8, Fusion, Edge, and the coming products which are common knowledge are already critically acclaimed.
3. The unions, while expensive, have been reduced in size by 50%, and as I stated, will be competitive with transplants by 2010. The problem is the burden of the retirees from a time when there were far fewer competitors and the Big 3 held all market share. Do you think it's fair they should not recieve their retirements now for some reason?????

You clearly didn't READ my post. Your post is based on YOUR experience with some suppliers that went under, so that is how business is done? That makes no sense, and neither does your whole post.

First, bankruptcy DOES NOT WORK for an OEM like a supplier. OEM's sell to the public, who expect a warranty. Survey's indicate at least 80% of customers won't buy from a bankrupt automaker, how do you think that would enable emerging, with no revenue?

Next, you ramble on about the failure of the BANK bailouts? How is that related, other than the fact Wall St caused this issue, and after being bailed out still isn't offering lending? This bridge loan is a different animal than the financial sector bailouts, and is meant to provide liquidity until the banks will start loaning again.

Further, keeping the millions that rely on the industry working IS rebuilding from the bottom, and keeping people off unemployment and paying their mortgages. This isn't a CEO issue, as those guys are set for life. They are fighting for the middle class working for them.

In all, your post really had nothing to do with the isses at hand, and seems more like a bitter remark from someone who was burnt by a bankrupt supplier.

Not bitter at all, I have watched this from the front and have been in more auto plants than most of the employees the two bankos I spoke of were a few years ago now

as far as what I have stated is all true, I don’t care if the CEO's were new to there jobs 6 months ago there arrogance to not even have a plan when walking in and asking for money is just down right stupid If I want money for my business I have to have a business plan not just a hand out

The new cars are way too late in coming and consolidation is what is needed in car lines

The unions, well what can be said, they made there own bed.

I like the idea of the UAW bailing out the car companies If they think it is a good idea why don’t they move to be employee owned and do the bailing out ?

As far a bitter, I think you are the bitter one watching your job go away, and quite frankly I would be upset as well, The problem is “in house” and what needs to be done is a lot different than what many would like to see done The feel good times are gone it is time for a old cleansing

Best of luck to you

[MarylandMark]

Just a general question to all- and it's been said on this thread before:

How many people do you know that is going to buy a new car/truck in the next 1-3 years if they don't have to?

I was thinking of scooping up a daily driver at these great prices but:

- if I did a trade, my trade is worthless (50K miles 06 KR SRW F350 4x4 diesel)
- fuel prices are down $1.83 87/$2.70 diesel
- what may be a great deal today could be over-paying 20% a few months from now (self-fulfilling prophecy thing )
- credit was tight but loosing up some (not mine; in general) God forbid you bought in the last 2-3 years with a 5-7 year loan. My be worth 50% of what you owe

Don't matter if the Big 3 made the best car in the world- Santa ani't delivering many any time soon any way.

[pullmytrigger]

hey maybe the union should buy the company.....Harley Davidson was brought to the brink of bankruptcy by the Japanese then didnt the employees buy the place, turn it around and now they cant build enough of them?

[MarylandMark]

8/08 Harley was bought by Italian motorcycle manufacturer MV Agusta

[MarylandMark]

But speaking of Harley- how about the "strike" in 07...

On February 2, 2007, upon the expiration of their union contract, about 2,700 employees at Harley-Davidson Inc.'s largest manufacturing plant in York, PA went on strike after failing to agree on wages and health benefits. During the pendency of the strike, the company refused to pay for any portion of the striking employees' health care.

The day before the strike, after the union voted against the proposed contract and to authorize the strike, the company shut down all production at the plant. The York facility employs more than 3,200 workers, both union and non-union.

Harley-Davidson announced on February 16, 2007, that it had reached a labor agreement with union workers at its largest manufacturing plant, a breakthrough in the two-week-old strike. The strike disrupted Harley-Davidson’s national production and had ripple effects as far away as Wisconsin, where 440 employees were laid off, and many Harley suppliers also laid off workers because of the strike.

[Velocity Kid]

They will get the bail out money. I we all need to go to washington and ask them to bail our business out. I think if we did they would get the message. Do you think the presidents of the big 3 took pay cuts Ummm NO. I think Reggie Fountain should march down to washington and ask them for a bail out

[Dreamer]

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/?seo=goo_|_2008_Chevy_Fuel_Solutions_Lifestyle_|_IMG_Electric_|_Chevy_Volt_ FS_General_|_chevy_volt

40k electric car... instead of a 25k prius


they r done

[Dreamer]

http://oglobo.globo.com/blogs/arquivos_upload/2008/02/198_2738-pontiac-aztec.jpg


lets produce more of these

[BUzzED]

I am probably going to start looking for a new truck in the near future. I usually stick to Ford or Chevy. I will look at Toyotas for thr simple reason of the bailout. I think it's rediculous they need bailing out as they have done it to themselves. The unions have ruined the "Big 3" & everything else they touch.

[Expensive Date]

http://oglobo.globo.com/blogs/arquivos_upload/2008/02/198_2738-pontiac-aztec.jpg


lets produce more of these


Can you tow a 38 TG with that:)

[stecz20]

i know a lot of people that have money and are taking advantage of pricing.... i always own at least one american car.. my entire family buys american cars and will continue to do so......

[rockfish71]

The only thing running this country in to the ground is NAFTA FREE TRADE MEXICO CHINA KOREA JAPAN HAVE YOU SEE THE WAY THOSE PEOPLE LIVE YOU NEED TO STAND UP FOR WE HAVE LEFT IN THIS COUNTRY OR WE WILL ALL BE MOVING TO ONE OF THOSE PLACES FOR A JOB TO MAKE 4.00 BUCKS A HOUR AND LIVING IN BOX'S GET REAL AND YES THE CEO'S ARE JACKA&&S THEY NEED TO TAKE THE PAY CUT YOU CAN'T EVEN RISE A FAMILY ON 25 BUCKS A HOUR AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION I'M A NON UNION WORKER. BUT I DEAL WITH THEM EVERYDAY.

[inbetween]

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/?seo=goo_|_2008_Chevy_Fuel_Solutions_Lifestyle_|_IMG_Electric_|_Chevy_Volt_ FS_General_|_chevy_volt

40k electric car... instead of a 25k prius


they r done

The Volt's not out yet, but the Prius has been around since '97

Yea, GM's got it together

[BBB725]

As someone in the industry (I work for GM, not UAW), it is amazing how little people know.

I'd like to make a few points.

-This is not a product driven crisis, a UAW or cost structure crisis, etc. This is a FINANCIAL MARKET issue. There is no cash to borrow, for the OEM's or their customers. This has clearly killed revenue. Last year sales were over 17 MILLION, this year we are looking at under 11 MILLION. Imagine that kind of revenue loss on your company, now make it a huge mfg company that requires cash, and tons of it? Now take away ALL credit markets, and this is exactly what you get. The banks caused this entire problem, and are the ones getting bailed out?



That's the key sales are down so the companies have to respond by reducing costs, two things make up the price of a car, material and labor. They reduce material costs by beating up suppliers or not buying. But when management signed the last labor agreement they made labor a fixed cost.

[BUIZILLA]

who the hell wants an electric car?? :ack2:

what's next electric boats ?? that's a shocker..

[Expensive Date]

who the hell wants an electric car?? :ack2:

what's next electric boats ?? that's a shocker..


If all the tree huggers get electric cars oil will stay cheap for our boats

[RLJ676]

They will get the bail out money. I we all need to go to washington and ask them to bail our business out. I think if we did they would get the message. Do you think the presidents of the big 3 took pay cuts Ummm NO. I think Reggie Fountain should march down to washington and ask them for a bail out


Here's a perfect example of people mouthing off with no clue. As I just posted, GM's exec's cancelled their bonuses, which are typically half of their compensation. Nardelli is working for nothing, and I believe Mulally cut his pay as well signifigantly.

[RLJ676]

The Volt's not out yet, but the Prius has been around since '97

Yea, GM's got it together

You realize their is a HUGE difference between the Volt, an all electric propeled vehicle (with gas generator to keep battery charged when necessary), and the Prius which is a simpler hybrid. Oh, and Ford, GM and Chrysler have hybrids that function just like the prius, they are just less ugly.

Further, if our gov't had paid R&D for a hybrid as Japan did for Toyota, it'd been out then too. Even though the Prius is still sold for a loss generally, so it really isn't anything but a PR car.

This goes to my point, everyone is sitting here saying know to a LOAN while they have absolutely no clue as to the facts. Learn something before making up your mind based on crap stated by ignorant pundits/congrassman and just repeating incorrect myths that have been around for years.

Check here, everything is true and verifyable. www.gmfactsandfiction.com

[RLJ676]

The only thing running this country in to the ground is NAFTA FREE TRADE MEXICO CHINA KOREA JAPAN HAVE YOU SEE THE WAY THOSE PEOPLE LIVE YOU NEED TO STAND UP FOR WE HAVE LEFT IN THIS COUNTRY OR WE WILL ALL BE MOVING TO ONE OF THOSE PLACES FOR A JOB TO MAKE 4.00 BUCKS A HOUR AND LIVING IN BOX'S GET REAL AND YES THE CEO'S ARE JACKA&&S THEY NEED TO TAKE THE PAY CUT YOU CAN'T EVEN RISE A FAMILY ON 25 BUCKS A HOUR AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION I'M A NON UNION WORKER. BUT I DEAL WITH THEM EVERYDAY.

Exactly. I don't understand how nobody can see that a "global economy" will result in our standard of living going to hell. Americans live much better than the global avg, but as we go more and more global ours will have to come way down in order for others to come up. Is that what we really want?????

[boatme]

Here's a perfect example of people mouthing off with no clue. As I just posted, GM's exec's cancelled their bonuses, which are typically half of their compensation. Nardelli is working for nothing, and I believe Mulally cut his pay as well signifigantly.


Little to late

Only did it because they were getting busted over it

They were to arogent to have done it before they walked in asking for money

You arent seriosly defending these idiots

They need to be GONE by virtue of how they have conducted them selfs in the last 6 months right up to last week

they need a permanant pay cut to ZERO and go home

[boatme]

Exactly. I don't understand how nobody can see that a "global economy" will result in our standard of living going to hell. Americans live much better than the global avg, but as we go more and more global ours will have to come way down in order for others to come up. Is that what we really want?????

Not what we want is what we need

we gotta stop looking for what we want and realize what we need

[RLJ676]

Little to late

Only did it because they were getting busted over it

They were to arogent to have done it before they walked in asking for money

You arent seriosly defending these idiots

They need to be GONE by virtue of how they have conducted them selfs in the last 6 months right up to last week

they need a permanant pay cut to ZERO and go home

Wrong again. GM cut theirs in June.

Without a financial crisis though, the restructuring would have us profitable in 09/10 at the latest, with no worries of bankruptcy. However, the banks strolled in for ACTUAL bailouts no questions asked, while the bandwagon has decided to rake us over the coals for a loan?:ack2:

Like I said, I just don't think you understand everything that has happened with the industry recently, as you are sticking to outdated stereotypes and just plain wrong information.

[BUIZILLA]

does Prius offer a trailer hitch option?

[boatme]

Wrong again. GM cut theirs in June.

Without a financial crisis though, the restructuring would have us profitable in 09/10 at the latest, with no worries of bankruptcy. However, the banks strolled in for ACTUAL bailouts no questions asked, while the bandwagon has decided to rake us over the coals for a loan?:ack2:

Like I said, I just don't think you understand everything that has happened with the industry recently, as you are sticking to outdated stereotypes and just plain wrong information.

We will have to agree to disagree

You want a bail out

I dont want a bailout

My info is not outdated and is as relivant as your info

you may be to close to see the forest from the trees

Good luck, no matter what happens you are going to need it. Things will never be the same in the auto bussiness no matter what happens, and it should never be as it was again

[Offshore Ginger]

Let them file chapter 11 and restructure .................. i am so tired of auto workers makeing more $$$$ money then people who have collage degrees for just twisting two nuts , give me a break . I also would like to say that i do not give a $hit if thay are bored , because they work on a assembly line but .......................... why do we send are son's and daughter's to collage to have a STUPID auto worker with no degree who twists two nuts together make more then the people who have a collage education , go figure .

[Sutphen39]

Detroit Free Press Exposes Six Myths About Domestic Automakers
The November 17, 2008, issue of the Detroit Free Press ran an interesting article about six domestic automaker myths that linger in the minds of consumers:

“The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are six myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.

Myth 1: Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality:

General Motors, Ford and Chrysler sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world.
GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 650,000 so far this year.
Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world’s largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Myth 2: They build unreliable junk.
Reality:

The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and ’90s are long gone. The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands’ overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth 3: They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality:

All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway.
The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 mpg on the highway, 2 mpg better than the best Honda Accord.
The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic.
Myth 4: They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality:

None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that’s killing them now.
Myth 5: GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality:

The domestic companies’ lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry.
The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan’s full-size pickups.
Myth 6: They don’t build hybrids.
Reality:

The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.

[inbetween]

You realize their is a HUGE difference between the Volt, an all electric propeled vehicle (with gas generator to keep battery charged when necessary), and the Prius which is a simpler hybrid. Oh, and Ford, GM and Chrysler have hybrids that function just like the prius, they are just less ugly.

Further, if our gov't had paid R&D for a hybrid as Japan did for Toyota, it'd been out then too. Even though the Prius is still sold for a loss generally, so it really isn't anything but a PR car.

This goes to my point, everyone is sitting here saying know to a LOAN while they have absolutely no clue as to the facts. Learn something before making up your mind based on crap stated by ignorant pundits/congrassman and just repeating incorrect myths that have been around for years.

Check here, everything is true and verifyable. www.gmfactsandfiction.com

I do realize the difference in the two cars. I should have used a diff comparison for the point I was trying to make.

Chrysler PT Cruiser 2000, huge success - Chevy HHR 2006, not so much

2005 Ford Mustang, success - Dodge Challenger 2008, in demand - Chevy Camaro - 2010 maybe, should be successful just because of the heritage

Hybrids, Since you have all the answers, when did GM release theirs?
1997 - Toyota, Audi
1999 Honda
2004 Ford
There are a bunch out there now, but how many from the big 3?

I'm not pushing imports, 2 Fords and a GMC in my driveway, BBCs in the boat, just looking at things and wondering why the American auto industry is where it is today. Not singling out GM, but they are the biggest of the 3 and from that, one could infer that they should have offerings at the forefront of technology before everyone else.

[boatme]

I do realize the difference in the two cars. I should have used a diff comparison for the point I was trying to make.

Chrysler PT Cruiser 2000, huge success - Chevy HHR 2006, not so much

2005 Ford Mustang, success - Dodge Challenger 2008, in demand - Chevy Camaro - 2010 maybe, should be successful just because of the heritage

Hybrids, Since you have all the answers, when did GM release theirs?
1997 - Toyota, Audi
1999 Honda
2004 Ford
There are a bunch out there now, but how many from the big 3?

I'm not pushing imports, 2 Fords and a GMC in my driveway, BBCs in the boat, just looking at things and wondering why the American auto industry is where it is today. Not singling out GM, but they are the biggest of the 3 and from that, one could infer that they should have offerings at the forefront of technology before everyone else.


What he said :sifone: This was my point as well when i said they have been behind the times. It was just to little to late

[Audiofn]

When I was looking for my Escape Hybrid you could not find them any place. I had to get a used one. The demand for them was HUGE but Ford could not get batteries or some such nonsense. They have a winner in this car and they can not make them. Now with the cost of fuel down so much lower the demand for them is going to drop big time.

If the Volt comes out at 40K then it will no fly unless the performance numbers are off the charts. If they came out with it last year maybe but not now.

[BBB725]

Don't worry, oil will go back up. I think it's going to take $5/gal to convince people that buying gas guzzlers is a bad decision. Unfortunately $5 gas will impact boating very negatively but that's the price of change.

That can't happen, Bush and Cheny are out of office and Obamas in:)

[Audiofn]

Don't worry, oil will go back up. I think it's going to take $5/gal to convince people that buying gas guzzlers is a bad decision. Unfortunately $5 gas will impact boating very negatively but that's the price of change.

So you are saying that part of your guys promis of change is 5$ a gallon gas? I bet a lot of people would not have voted for him knowing that :dupe::dupe:

[phragle]

When I was looking for my Escape Hybrid you could not find them any place. I had to get a used one. The demand for them was HUGE but Ford could not get batteries or some such nonsense. They have a winner in this car and they can not make them. Now with the cost of fuel down so much lower the demand for them is going to drop big time.

If the Volt comes out at 40K then it will no fly unless the performance numbers are off the charts. If they came out with it last year maybe but not now.

the volt isn't going to do it, what would do it is a 7~10k 40mpg metro with updated styling and a nice stereo that could be affordable to a kid working at Mc Donaldsn and make it look cool enough that a kid working at mcdonalds would actually want it and not be afraid to be seen driving it.

not counting burger king, wendy's and walmart employee's just mcdonlalds that little car would have at least 20 times the market share than the volt

[MarylandMark]

The king of Saudi Arabia, the largest oil producer in the world, says the fair price for oil is $75 a barrel.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/11/29/news/ML-Saudi-Oil-Prices.php

They are going to cut production to see at least that number from here on out so don't get too happy with the price at the pump right now. That is almost 40% more than what it has been trading at.. 55 + 40% = 77

[Playn]

who the hell wants an electric car?? :ack2:

what's next electric boats ?? that's a shocker..

I'd buy one in a second if they made the one I want. Personally I like what Tesla is doing but don't know if the cars meet the published claims. Additionally I'm not spending north of $100k on one. They were talking about a sedan in the $60K range (I'd like to see that number substantially lower) and I'd be interested in that providing it had similar performance as their claiming for the roadster.

[phragle]

well ford is coming out with the SVT F150 raptor, a high end big bucks pickup, granted it's a really sweet truck, but is this really a truck market?????????

[KENNYO]

I'd buy one in a second if they made the one I want. Personally I like what Tesla is doing but don't know if the cars meet the published claims. Additionally I'm not spending north of $100k on one. They were talking about a sedan in the $60K range (I'd like to see that number substantially lower) and I'd be interested in that providing it had similar performance as their claiming for the roadster.

We'd all be electrocuted the first weekend out if we had electric boats!!!!!!!!!!!

[inbetween]

who the hell wants an electric car?? :ack2:

what's next electric boats ?? that's a shocker..

40 miles in 8 hours then a recharge :rofl::rofl:

http://www.thameselectric.com/

[RLJ676]

the volt isn't going to do it, what would do it is a 7~10k 40mpg metro with updated styling and a nice stereo that could be affordable to a kid working at Mc Donaldsn and make it look cool enough that a kid working at mcdonalds would actually want it and not be afraid to be seen driving it.

not counting burger king, wendy's and walmart employee's just mcdonlalds that little car would have at least 20 times the market share than the volt

The Volt is NOT meant to be a volume seller (the volume the first few years will be LOW), it is meant to show off the best tech, but still won't be "profitable". It is a pure electric car, with a generator to charge the battery. It isn't like hybrid as we know them.

However, the Cruze, which replaces the Cobalt and will get over 40, and be priced in the teens, IS going to be a volume seller. This car will be just as important as the Volt. It will actually sell in volume, while the Volt gives PR (just as the Prius has greenwashed many into thinking Toyota is the green mfg).

[phragle]

hopefully the cruze will be more than a reskinned cavalier/cobalt, as for the volt, when your hemmoraghing dollars, why embark on non-profitable ventures and showing off?? research is one thing, but dont put your unfinished research projects into production.

[DollaBill]

The Volt is NOT meant to be a volume seller (the volume the first few years will be LOW), it is meant to show off the best tech, but still won't be "profitable". It is a pure electric car, with a generator to charge the battery. It isn't like hybrid as we know them.

However, the Cruze, which replaces the Cobalt and will get over 40, and be priced in the teens, IS going to be a volume seller. This car will be just as important as the Volt. It will actually sell in volume, while the Volt gives PR (just as the Prius has greenwashed many into thinking Toyota is the green mfg).

Just as clearly as the use of private jets to DC to plead their case for a bail-out is the same example being set by the Volt, per your information.

NOT MEANT TO BE A VOLUME SELLER?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That actually has me laughing. And, it should have you laughing too, but I'm starting to wonder if everyone in detroit or involved with the industry is blinded and buying their own BS.

"Let's see..... instead of building a product we can sell and make a PROFIT on, we'll showcase our commitment to technology and being green. I mean, the Fed will bail us out". :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Detroit and anyone who takes their side needs to go back and start at community college in Business 101

[BUIZILLA]

a close friend of mine owns 3 GM/Ford stores in middle TN, I hope he makes it, he is the epitome of the family style long term lifer, awesome sales and service store. stores like this NEED to survive, the big conglomerate stores are what ruined the perfect sales/service relationship we all crave. Autonation proves just what is all wrong with the auto sales industry...

[MacGyver]

A UAW worker makes 73.26/hour. $39.68 base wages with $33.58 in benefits. Unreal.

I say let the Big Three sink. These bloated wages are gonna put the Big Three under. And maybe thats exactly what they need.

Time to restructure and ditch the unions.

[MarylandMark]

A UAW worker makes 73.26/hour. $39.68 base wages with $33.58 in benefits. Unreal.

That includes legacy cost.

Everyone's always trying to take from the man that has to take take shower after work than before work...

UAW announced today they are willing to make more cuts (union lesson learned from Eastern Air maybe).

UAW workers made several concessions in their latest contract, including the implementation of a two-tier wage system.

Under this system, current employees will keep their current compensation rates, but new workers will make significantly less in benefits and wages. These new workers will only cost their employers $47 an hour all-in, while non-assembly line workers will only cost $26 an hour.

In another concession, the UAW will take control of health-care benefits as of 2010, meaning the all-in cost of the workers who were hired before the two-tier system was implemented will fall to $62 an hour.

Given these changes, by 2012 the average all-in cost of a UAW employee will be approximately $52 an hour. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081130.wcanauto1130/BNStory/Business)

4 years dropping cost over $20/hour.

[DollaBill]

Destruction of the unions would actually save other lesser known companies BILLIONS of dollars. That would have a very postive effect on the economy. Cut cap gains and now we have the start of something good.

? is, would the unions dissolve if the 3 go away?

[phragle]

here is aunion one for you,
Two guys that work(ed) for consolidated biscuit, tried 6 years ago to unionize biscuit factory, attempt failed. after the attempt failed they were fired. court just ruled (after 6 years) that they were fired for attempting unionization, and forced the biscuit company to rehire them, WITH 6 years back pay PLUS interest.

"On Wednesday, workers welcomed Bill Lawhorn and Russ Teegardin back to Consolidated Biscuit Company in McComb.

They were among seven people who were fired six years ago while a to unionize the plant. "We had an election. I was fired the day after the election," said Lawhorn.

An appeals court agreed that the company wrongfully fired Lawhorn and Teegardin for attempting to organize. The court ordered the company to re-hire them with six years back pay, plus interest.

"I guess I go back with 17 years seniority now. They ordered them to give everything back," said Lawhorn."

[DollaBill]

I'm pretty sure if onwed the biscuit company those 2 mfr's would have a ver unfortunate accident with a large forklift or dough mixing machine. Then they could contact their atty the way Steven Hawking does if they made it out alive.

[MarylandMark]

Some would argue that is exactly why unions are needed...

[BBB725]

Most companies get the union they deserve by how they treat their employees.

[boatme]

Most companies get the union they deserve by how they treat their employees.

can you explain what the heck this means ????

Most people that have unions have been stuck with them for years

unions were needed years ago but not so much any more yet their foot hold in any one company is almost imposiable to break

So maybe unions are now getting what they deserve (loss of jobs) because of how they have treated the companys??

[boatme]

I've been watching the Congressional coverage this morning and one of the auto execs said his company has lost 300 dealers THIS YEAR ALONE.

And that is true why?? Because an auto exec said it ???? LOL :ack2:

I am sure many have gone down or are about to and that is very sad but i am having a hard time holding any credability to what the three stooges are saying.

[BBB725]

can you explain what the heck this means ????

Most people that have unions have been stuck with them for years

unions were needed years ago but not so much any more yet their foot hold in any one company is almost imposiable to break

So maybe unions are now getting what they deserve (loss of jobs) because of how they have treated the companys??

This would only apply to companies who were non union and had one voted in.

A simplified way, be unreasonable with the employees, pay, work conditions etc... The union can be just as unreasonable back, work rules, benefits etc..

[BBB725]

unions were needed years ago but not so much any more yet their foot hold in any one company is almost imposiable to break

So maybe unions are now getting what they deserve (loss of jobs) because of how they have treated the companys??

I agree with that, unions help create the middle class, but with a world economy they have to help the company become competitive or die with them.

[boatme]

I agree with that, unions help create the middle class, but with a world economy they have to help the company become competitive or die with them.

yep it sucks no matter how ya look at it

[MarylandMark]

Most companies get the union they deserve by how they treat their employees.

Exactly.

My company has gone to a tiered system- lower pay, lower benefits, lower pension, lower 401K match, lower every thing for people hired after 8/03. No doubt they would have done the same across the board if they could. They treat us like crap as it is; hate to see what they would try to get away with if we were non-union (and my union sucks).

Job banks? Health care for life? Pensions? Companies agreed to them when they were making money hand over fist on the backs of their workers. Don't make promises you can't keep.

I'm sure someone will try to argue the companies were held hostage with the threat of strike and strong armed. I call BS.

Always trying to take from the man that has to take a shower after work rather than before work. CEO's and white shirts caused this; not the guy working on the line.

Oh yea- I think job banks are total BS but the rest is just a living wage and part of a compensation package.

[boatme]

Exactly.


Job banks? Health care for life? Pensions? Companies agreed to them when they were making money hand over fist on the backs of their workers. Don't make promises you can't keep.


Always trying to take from the man that has to take a shower after work rather than before work. CEO's and white shirts caused this; not the guy working on the line.

.

ahhhh union mentality "we agreed once so it means for life"

As far as whose fault

It is both the white collar and the blue collars fault. There is plenty of blame to go around
If you think it is only white collar guy why is it you would want a bail out so those same idiots could run the show ?

[MarylandMark]

I don't want the bail-out to go thru. Bed made, lie in it.

I just don't like the working stiff getting the shaft all the time when others (execs) are making millions over millions running the company in to the ground.

I would never have taken the job I currently have if I wasn't promised the package they offered me. Work there 25-30 years to have them say- sorry; we lied is just plain wrong.

[MarylandMark]

Honda has more employee's in "job banks" than all of the Big 3 combined does...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-12-07-new-auto-plants_N.htm