turbine boat question??

[Jesse James]

I have heard the turine boats around the docks make a noise like a am radio losing tune... it is in this video at around 2:40 and throughout the rest of the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQdY_Zw-Cv4&feature=related


also in the powerboat article they were talking about the throttle set up in copelands phenomenon...and it lead me to believe they had to do some engineering to get it down from 12 levers, and they indicited a seperate throttle for n1 and n2......

what is n1 and n2 and do they require sperate throttles and if so why?

thanks...

[GENERAL LEE]

As little interest as I have in owning a turbine boat, I'll ALWAYS watch them run! :cheers2:

Was that Hellfire? It doesn't really look like I remember it, but it's been a few years since I've seen it. :cheers2:

[phragle]

this might help...

http://www.aircav.com/cobra/T53-703.html

[Chris]

N1 is the compressor stage. The turbine compresses air prior to combustion just as a piston engine does, but in a linear fashion using a multiple-stage turbine compressor. Each stage having a more aggressive blade pitch. The output of the compressor stage is ported into a combustion chamber, the fuel is injected and ignited and the output is ducted to the power turbine, N2.

Just like an engine there are RPM limitations. Both stages' RPM is a function of fuel input and load. The other limitation is exhaust gas temperature. Essentially, too much fuel and not enough load will overspeed the turbine- typically the N2 side first. Too much fuel and too much load will probably cause EGT related failure before the N1 overspeed issue occurs.

A gas turbine is in simple terms a jet engine blowing against a fan. The fan is connected to a shaft and then a gearbox that reduces output RPM and converts that speed into torque.

All you need to control a turbine engine is a single lever to either mechanically or electrically open the valve on the fuel metering system.

[boostbros]

the really loud screeching at idle is from the bleed band being wide openreducing the air into the combustion chamber so as to not blow the flame out the more power a turbine makes the quieter it gets as all the air is forced thru the engine... some of the sounds you hear docking are there is a large disk brake on the output shaft with often 2 calipers they use a trim pump for brake pressure and can stop the n2 or power turbine to shift when released it sounds like blowing compressed air on a bearing as the blades spin up to speed.....all the blades in a turbine are hollow and have air blowing thru them to cool them thats what a hot start is to big of fire with not enough cooling air inside the blades then they can melt or bend with not good results!

[Brownie]

I wish I had a picture of the throttle for the 4,500 HP Lycoming turbine in the 110' "Genrty Eagle". It was a ten-cent knob, about 1/2" in diameter.

[tommymonza]

What does the starter sytem look like and how does it work?

[ZBODaytona]

didn't turbine marine say they have a 50'V NorTech that has turbines with sound output at 89db? I seem to remember a post about that one day, just don't remember which forum and when. Though there was never any video posted of the boat.

[GENERAL LEE]

According to Randy Sweers, Canada Thrust has the biggest turbines in a pleasure boat. He said it pulls like a solid rocket booster. :willy_nilly:

[Chris]

Geico just sold their BIG motors to Bill Tomlinson for his new Mystic.

[waterboy222]

So does the N1 and N2 require seperate levers or is it automatic?

[Chris]

So does the N1 and N2 require seperate levers or is it automatic?

N1 and N2 are just measurements. Seeing what one is doing relative to the other tells the opertaor alot about what's going on load wise. But they can only be controlled by the amount of fuel put into the engine (N1) and the output load (N2). Turbines are typically coupled to things like props or rotors so output load is adjusted via changes in pitch.

One lever.

[waterboy222]

so output load is adjusted via changes in pitch.

One lever.


Gotcha.. This is where I was confused.. Im with ya now.:driving:

[40FlatDeck]

N1 and N2 are just measurements. Seeing what one is doing relative to the other tells the opertaor alot about what's going on load wise. But they can only be controlled by the amount of fuel put into the engine (N1) and the output load (N2). Turbines are typically coupled to things like props or rotors so output load is adjusted via changes in pitch.

One lever.

Obviously, when you stall N2 to shift, I assume you can only stall it for a short time before bad things happen.

[Chris]

Some turbines can't be stalled at all. The Lycoming is tolerant of it, but not for any great amount at time and only at idle speed. Idle speed is sort of a funny term- Idle on a turbine is only about 20% less than max RPM. At that speed, it's not putting enough energy into the N2 stage to move it very fast.


John Arruda would pop in here now and again- he's obviously way more knowledgeable on this stuff. Hopefully he sees this.

[Bradz]

This a good thread. I have always wondered how they shift into gear. Turbines are really quiet at speed. It is almost odd how quiet they are cruising. I wonder what the DB test is at idle? Would they pass many state laws of 90DB at idle? That would be great if they did as I can keep dreaming of the someday...

[skaterdave]

no expert but what little time i spent around one setup with t-53s you can stop the n2 for around a minute or less. the only setup i've seen is pieces that Elstrom makes for Whispering which aruda also uses. basically a bellhousing that bolts to the back of the t-53 where the n2 out put shaft comes out. the bellhousing had a machined opening for a disc brake caliper and a standard SCS crashbox bolts up to it. the scs crash box has a longer input shaft with spines for the rotor which floats on the input shaft that couples up to the n2. the setup i saw used a electric-over-hydraulic brake actuator, like you'd see on a boat trailer, to apply pressure to the caliper.

this is very similar to SCS shiftable crash box. as far as stopping the n2, you could compare it to pressing on a clutch pedal to shift a car, your only stopping the n2 when you pressing on the clutch. once the crash box is in neutral the n2 spools up agian.

[tommymonza]

When you stop n2 does the hot exhaust get diverted during that process some how?

[skaterdave]

When you stop n2 does the hot exhaust get diverted during that process some how?

i think it was Knot-right that explained it best. picture two fans. the first fan (n1) blows air on the second fan, its that second fan (n2) that connects to the output shaft.

no the exhaust gases are forced threw the second fan's blade. the blades themselves are cooled when air is flowing but when their stopped so does the cooling air. the blades can only handle so much heat before damage occurs.

so no the exhaust is forced thru the n2 blades

[Rik]

When you stop n2 does the hot exhaust get diverted during that process some how?


No, it still flows out the exhaust, just not as fast as the PT wheel is providing more resistance when not rotating.

There are two throttle controls on the Fuel control of the T-53's that are being referenced here. Apply named N1 and N2.

There are several ways of "throttling" these engines. One can use one throttle or two as N2 acts as a governor in some regards. I've seen people set N2 and throttle with N1.

The T55 L11C's have the same basic layout as the T53 L13's. One can throttle either of these two together, seperate or singular when settting the N2 Throttle.

[Rik]

According to Randy Sweers, Canada Thrust has the biggest turbines in a pleasure boat. He said it pulls like a solid rocket booster. :willy_nilly:

Not even close.

[Sick Sting]

Ask Knot Rght he has the 46 turbne skater around here very very smart in ths aspect he did his homework.
-Mike

[Rik]

What does the starter sytem look like and how does it work?

The starter is a generator as this is a DC motor. Simply put, the input shaft to the DC motor is splined and fits into a right angle gear box which in turn powers a gear (via a shaft) that is attached to the Compressor.

Being that on these engines (T53's and T55's) this is a purely "live" connection when the compressor is spinning it in turn rotates the DC motor.

When one closes the shunt field on a DC motor it becomes a DC generator.

[insanity]

As little interest as I have in owning a turbine boat, I'll ALWAYS watch them run! :cheers2:

Was that Hellfire? It doesn't really look like I remember it, but it's been a few years since I've seen it. :cheers2:

Nope not Hellfire, Hellfire's cockpit is a lot smaller and its exhaust is at the transom. But still sweet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Tr0syhIIo

[tommymonza]

Thanks Rik.

[KnotRight]

The noise you here is the Power turbine wheel comming to a hault.
This is done by a caliper squeezing a rotor stopping it.
Then you engage the crash box and select forward neutral or reverse.


Here is a video worth 1000 words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HpbYDFGrkA

[Seafordguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQdY_Zw-Cv4&feature=related




what is n1 and n2 and do they require sperate throttles and if so why?

thanks...

HAHA - I love that boat right beside that little sailboat. Two complete extremes using that ramp!!

[KnotRight]

I have heard the turine boats around the docks make a noise like a am radio losing tune... it is in this video at around 2:40 and throughout the rest of the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQdY_Zw-Cv4&feature=related


also in the powerboat article they were talking about the throttle set up in copelands phenomenon...and it lead me to believe they had to do some engineering to get it down from 12 levers, and they indicited a seperate throttle for n1 and n2......

what is n1 and n2 and do they require sperate throttles and if so why?

thanks...


The 53 and the 55,s are Gas Turbine engines.
This means there is a gas producer n1. and a power turbine n2
These two systems are completely independent of each other.

N1 is the gas producer which means it produces Hot gas (Combustion)
that is directed and focused onto the Turbine Wheel (N2).
At low Rpm the Force is not significant enough so that the design
allows the N2 to be stopped without issue.

Picture a compressor airgun. EX. like a blow off nozzle that a garage uses
to blow debris off something.

If you put a free spinning Wheel in a vice. EX. Like a Computer fan.
If you apply the airgun to the fan the force of the air against the blades
will cause it to move. It will Move pretty fast also.
Imagine this computer fan coupled to a shaft and attached to a prop.

This is a basic analogy.

[KnotRight]

So does the N1 and N2 require seperate levers or is it automatic?

In a helicopter n1 is the throttle. and n2 is the rotor speed.

These are both adjustable by the pilot.

Throttle and Collective pitch.

The rotor increases and decrease pitch in turn starts to pull the rotor
speed down . There is a droop compensator which keeps the rotor
speed up in the event the pilot has a heavy load Ex, lifting logs etc.

In a boat the n1 is the throttle and n2 is locked down at a given setting.

In one of my trial runs we could not get the boat over 100.
The n2 was locked down to low. simply backing out the stop screw is
all it takes.

Now you could certainly run a throttle on n2. this would give you
two throttles on each turbine.

In caution one needs to remember the n2 control is the actual governor
of the rpm. the maximum rpm of this is roughly 23,000.
By pulling back on this lever as in leaving the water would never
slow it down quickly enough as not to cause a overspeed.

Hope this helps

[KnotRight]

Here is the helicopters these were engineered for


t53 huey

t53 703 cobra

t55 chinook


Anyone wanna guess why its called t53?????

[MarylandMark]

By pulling back on this lever as in leaving the water would never slow it down quickly enough as not to cause a overspeed.


So..how do you throttle a turbine?

[MarylandMark]

Anyone wanna guess why its called t53?????

T for turbine
53 for military number

[macjazzy]

53, 5 Stage compressor, 3 stage turbine

[Rik]

So..how do you throttle a turbine?

Just like you throttle a normal boat. Push the lever forward and the motor accelerates, you can push N1 full then N2 or have N2 set and throttle N1

[KnotRight]

good answers..............


It was engineered in 1953

[KnotRight]

Just like you throttle a normal boat. Push the lever forward and the motor accelerates, you can push N1 full then N2 or have N2 set and throttle N1

I would like to try a temporary throttle on n2.

Two complete turns out added 50 mph.:eek:

[40FlatDeck]

Not even close.

I like that answer....:bump:

[KnotRight]

anticipating the water and pulling back faster.

Most turbine installations have the n2 locked down and throttle the n1.

In any case it will throw torque at the drives like ya read about!

[cigdaze]

anticipating the water and pulling back faster.

Most turbine installations have the n2 locked down and throttle the n1.

In any case it will throw torque at the drives like ya read about!

Nice. Talk about some impulse torsional yield.

[Rik]

I would like to try a temporary throttle on n2.

Two complete turns out added 50 mph.:eek:

Do it. On the 40's we can run right at 140 with N2 pulled back. Then with N2 throttled it really comes alive.

[KnotRight]

the really loud screeching at idle is from the bleed band being wide openreducing the air into the combustion chamber so as to not blow the flame out the more power a turbine makes the quieter it gets as all the air is forced thru the engine... some of the sounds you hear docking are there is a large disk brake on the output shaft with often 2 calipers they use a trim pump for brake pressure and can stop the n2 or power turbine to shift when released it sounds like blowing compressed air on a bearing as the blades spin up to speed.....all the blades in a turbine are hollow and have air blowing thru them to cool them thats what a hot start is to big of fire with not enough cooling air inside the blades then they can melt or bend with not good results!

Yes and no

The Bleed band closes at approx 85 percent n1.

Do you know what happens if it closes too late?

Here is the compressor section before balancing
also pictured is a set of Stainless compressor housings.
These were designed for salt water application for the navy.

[MarylandMark]

Throttling which (n1 or n2) provides better throttle response?

[Maximus]

Now take this killer equipment and come to a race course no matter the conditions. Sit in a milling area for 20 min while 2-3 of the fastest turbine raceboats in the world and 3-4 of the fastest Piston boats circle around you all wanting to be king, intimidation moves , cutoff here, a little bump there , it's getting hot . smoke get her on plane...watch out...did he just cut us off......fkn d**k. Green green green Go Go go go
Hold the 3800 hp wide open for two miles or whenever you've scared the crap out of yourself (175 or so 2-4's is usual) and don't get pinched turn one coming easy easy... turn as fast as you possibly can without flipping the boat over. Pin it and hold for 1.5 miles over what is probably a quartering sea (don't miss a throttle an over speed will cost the team 100+ k) ...as fast as 3800 hp wll take you (Watch the boat 10 feet away next to you at the same speed) Another turn ..back down to 135 anything more and your swimming...ahhh flat water ahead after this little hole by the jetty....but a nasty dog leg with race boat wakes to turn on...concrete to your right ...please don't hook. Hold it down....como'n faster 150, 160,165 ...turn..easy...hold it...turn easy little more...straight ...Hold it hard into the harbor. Concrete post to the starboard Hair-pin ahead ..... All system down (Bleed bands Popping off like fire crackkers)... ready Turn Turn turn..Nail it .....Wide open Pinned

You have 11 more laps to go.. Welcome to Key west in a turbine boat :driving:

[KnotRight]

Some turbines can't be stalled at all. The Lycoming is tolerant of it, but not for any great amount at time and only at idle speed. Idle speed is sort of a funny term- Idle on a turbine is only about 20% less than max RPM. At that speed, it's not putting enough energy into the N2 stage to move it very fast.


John Arruda would pop in here now and again- he's obviously way more knowledgeable on this stuff. Hopefully he sees this.

The ground idle is set at anywhere between 45-55 percent n1.
N1 max rpm is 105 percent.

[phragle]

Throttling which (n1 or n2) provides better throttle response?

Logically, I would think acceleration wise..throttling N2.. it would be like a clutch, if N1 is making the power, you are applying the power to N2. That would seem to be faster than increasing the power of N1 and applying it to N2. If your car is taking 4 grand and you dump the clutch your going to launch harder than stepping on the gas from idle.

[KnotRight]

Now take this killer equipment and come to a race course no matter the conditions. Sit in a milling area for 20 min while 2-3 of the fastest turbine raceboats in the world and 3-4 of the fastest Piston boats circle around you all wanting to be king, intimidation moves , cutoff here, a little bump there , it's getting hot . smoke get her on plane...watch out...did he just cut us off......fkn d**k. Green green green Go Go go go
Hold the 3800 hp wide open for two miles or whenever you've scared the crap out of yourself (175 or so 2-4's is usual) and don't get pinched turn one coming easy easy... turn as fast as you possibly can without flipping the boat over. Pin it and hold for 1.5 miles over what is probably a quartering sea (don't miss a throttle an over speed will cost the team 100+ k) ...as fast as 3800 hp wll take you (Watch the boat 10 feet away next to you at the same speed) Another turn ..back down to 135 anything more and your swimming...ahhh flat water ahead after this little hole by the jetty....but a nasty dog leg with race boat wakes to turn on...concrete to your right ...please don't hook. Hold it down....como'n faster 150, 160,165 ...turn..easy...hold it...turn easy little more...straight ...Hold it hard into the harbor. Concrete post to the starboard Hair-pin ahead ..... All system down (Bleed bands Popping off like fire crackkers)... ready Turn Turn turn..Nail it .....Wide open Pinned

You have 11 more laps to go.. Welcome to Key west in a turbine boat :driving:

F$kin Aye bro thats the sh@t right there:sifone:

[KnotRight]

Logically, I would think acceleration wise..throttling N2.. it would be like a clutch, if N1 is making the power, you are applying the power to N2. That would seem to be faster than increasing the power of N1 and applying it to N2. If your car is taking 4 grand and you dump the clutch your going to launch harder than stepping on the gas from idle.

Most Turbine installs do not do this.

[KnotRight]

Now take this killer equipment and come to a race course no matter the conditions. Sit in a milling area for 20 min while 2-3 of the fastest turbine raceboats in the world and 3-4 of the fastest Piston boats circle around you all wanting to be king, intimidation moves , cutoff here, a little bump there , it's getting hot . smoke get her on plane...watch out...did he just cut us off......fkn d**k. Green green green Go Go go go
Hold the 3800 hp wide open for two miles or whenever you've scared the crap out of yourself (175 or so 2-4's is usual) and don't get pinched turn one coming easy easy... turn as fast as you possibly can without flipping the boat over. Pin it and hold for 1.5 miles over what is probably a quartering sea (don't miss a throttle an over speed will cost the team 100+ k) ...as fast as 3800 hp wll take you (Watch the boat 10 feet away next to you at the same speed) Another turn ..back down to 135 anything more and your swimming...ahhh flat water ahead after this little hole by the jetty....but a nasty dog leg with race boat wakes to turn on...concrete to your right ...please don't hook. Hold it down....como'n faster 150, 160,165 ...turn..easy...hold it...turn easy little more...straight ...Hold it hard into the harbor. Concrete post to the starboard Hair-pin ahead ..... All system down (Bleed bands Popping off like fire crackkers)... ready Turn Turn turn..Nail it .....Wide open Pinned

You have 11 more laps to go.. Welcome to Key west in a turbine boat :driving:

Can I ask some top secret questions?
How many throttles do you have?
One per motor right?
Your n2 is wide open locked right?

[MarylandMark]

F$kin Aye bro thats the sh@t right there:sifone:

No sh1t right! I almost slammed my hand thru my screen trying to throttle along with the story!

now imagine if those 2-3 turbine boats and 3-4 piston boats were racing each other!

[DONZI]

WOW Maximus ! Thanks for the insight :driving:

Gerry, found that vid. -Wet start.:eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWPIvfXkj8

[KnotRight]

Balancing a set of pt wheels.


I could bore you guys with this info all night.

[KnotRight]

WOW Maximus ! Thanks for the insight :driving:

Gerry, found that vid. -Wet start.:eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWPIvfXkj8


Nice Find Ken!


Anyone know the difference in this Turbine compared to 53,s and 55,s?

Hint it is a TF

[MarylandMark]

I could bore you guys with this info all night.

I'm about to go back and read all 61+ pages of your Turbine 101 thread! Keep it coming!!

[KnotRight]

the n2 is reduced with this planetary reduction assembly.
This is internal in the 53 it takes the output of the n2 down to 6600rpm max.
The 55 reduction is not internal in its attended application. (chinook)
Its original gearbox is useless for a boat.
This why I asked the phenomena guys what they were using.

[KnotRight]

I'm about to go back and read all 61+ pages of your Turbine 101 thread! Keep it coming!!

You may have to wipe the dust off it:)

Here is one of the fuel rails being pattern tested.
In a 53 there is 22 of them.
They have two stages each. primary and secondary

[tommymonza]

So how do you throttle the n2 . I understand the brake for nuetral shift control but the throttling you kind of lost me.

Also what is the life span of the planetarys and what do they run in for lubrication?

[Jesse James]

thanks for the anwsers guys

[Rik]

I like that answer....:bump:

Hell, I've got nearly 5,000 hp in one engine alone. :sifone:

[boostbros]

i have opened a few t53s up and there is nothing to control n2 inside the engine the most basic way to describe a turbine gas producer is its a big blowtorch.....n1 and n2 control levers are strickly in the fuel control system? how does n2lever govern n2 speed? does it cut fuel or open bleed band? my brother is maintaince head at a power plant with 4 ge over 1 million hp gas turbines they are big and fasinating inside also helping a freind restore a few migs those engines are shakers you can grab the first row of blades and they are very loose and sound like wind chimes as it rotates at slow speed they lock in with centrifical force still does not seem right!

[KnotRight]

So how do you throttle the n2 . I understand the brake for nuetral shift control but the throttling you kind of lost me.

Also what is the life span of the planetarys and what do they run in for lubrication?

There have been several changes over the years modifying the planetarys
according to the Military manual 5000 hours.

The entire lubrication system is a dry sump system.
the oil I use is Mobil Jet.

The N2 is not throttled but rather locked into position.

I run approx 12 of these in my system.

[KnotRight]

i have opened a few t53s up and there is nothing to control n2 inside the engine the most basic way to describe a turbine gas producer is its a big blowtorch.....n1 and n2 control levers are strickly in the fuel control system? how does n2lever govern n2 speed? does it cut fuel or open bleed band? my brother is maintaince head at a power plant with 4 ge over 1 million hp gas turbines they are big and fasinating inside also helping a freind restore a few migs those engines are shakers you can grab the first row of blades and they are very loose and sound like wind chimes as it rotates at slow speed they lock in with centrifical force still does not seem right!

Its all controlled by fuel. If the Bleed ban opens to late the compressor
would force to much air into the combustor and a Stall will most likely
occur. This is when the in coming air actualy changes direction.
Comes right out the intake:eek:
I would love to get a tour of your brothers operation.
Come get me in one of those migs and the first round is on me.

What is amazing is the fuel control. It is a very complex unit.
You have to have some serious patience or alot of Corona to
take one of these apart. Even Arruda sends these out.
it has little fly weights that measure rpm of n1 n2 systems
Bellows that measure air density (altitude) It measures outside air temp.
incoming air pressure. It is all Mechanical.
It controls the air inlet vane guides, The bleed band, and of course
the fuel. It plots fuel schedules like takeoff, acceleration,deceleration
this is done with little internal cams and ramps.
You really have to give these guys credit it was late 1940s and 50,s
technology. In todays engines its all computer controlled.

Something else i find interesting is no one to my knowledge has replaced
this unit. with lets say a modified Motec. It has simple inputs and outputs.
and the Flow divider is really what controls the primary and secondary fuel nozzles.via incoming pressure. Perhaps it is what it is reliable.

Now I will Take my Freakin geek hat off now and go get some coffee.

Here is what the fuel control looks like.
Makes a holley Dominator look like a cereal box surprise.

[Rik]

Gerry, Fuel Controls are amazing when you consider all they do and how they do it. And to think they were designed and put into operation way before the modern computer was made makes them even more amazing.

[tommymonza]

Unreal complexity. Thanks for the education.

[waterboy222]

So do they use water at all? I mean, it seems like the exhaust is only a few inches long and some have water coming out, some dont.. Can you run them on the trailer?

[Dueclaws]

Fascinating!

[Bobthebuilder]

I can not contribute much to the technical side of the discussion but can tell you just a bit about the boat. It is a 50 ft Airborne and is owned by DoubleR Performance in Ontario, Canada. DoubleR looks after my boats in Canada and I know the players well. With the boat being painted orange, like the General Lee, we all call it the Dukes of Hazard boat. We did the Rice Lake Poker Run in September when that video would have been taken. A part of that poker run has us going 16 miles up a narrow river and the cottagers all get off the water and watch the mayhem that afternoon each year. Raymond wisely chose not to do the river section with the Dukes of Hazard because of safety concerns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlwsP5ZKMcU&feature=related

When I grow up I want a turbine ! LOL
Bob

[ZBODaytona]

http://www.turbinemarine.com/project_Leffin_50_NT_V.html

this is the boat i was talking about. For some reason I remember them saying it was very quite. Bob it is a 50V.

[KnotRight]

So do they use water at all? I mean, it seems like the exhaust is only a few inches long and some have water coming out, some dont.. Can you run them on the trailer?

Yes they can run on the trailer and do not require any water.
Some boat riggers choose to run water threw the exhaust.
Others run dry wrapped exhaust.
One challenge is to keep the oil at 200F this can be done with a water
exchanger like a piston application. You could even use a air to liquid exchanger to accomplish this also. This is how its done in the helicopter.


A Turbine once lit will run on fuel and air only no power or water at all.

[KnotRight]

Gerry, Fuel Controls are amazing when you consider all they do and how they do it. And to think they were designed and put into operation way before the modern computer was made makes them even more amazing.

I agree
Thats when engineers were super geeks!
No Cad no programs to figure this out were talking really fart smellers.

[Bobthebuilder]

http://www.turbinemarine.com/project_Leffin_50_NT_V.html

this is the boat i was talking about. For some reason I remember them saying it was very quite. Bob it is a 50V.

Sorry. I was referring to the video in JJ opening post #1. I had not realized that discussion switched over to the Turbine Marine Vee. Love the sound of the turbines. Carry on !! LOL

[40FlatDeck]

Yes they can run on the trailer and do not require any water.
Some boat riggers choose to run water threw the exhaust.
Others run dry wrapped exhaust.
One challenge is to keep the oil at 200F this can be done with a water
exchanger like a piston application. You could even use a air to liquid exchanger to accomplish this also. This is how its done in the helicopter.


A Turbine once lit will run on fuel and air only no power or water at all.

Gerry, I'm in Tucson and was contacted by the boys who built your turbines. They wanted me to stop by and check it out. Not that i would ever do it, but it would be cool as heck to see them run one up. :cheers2:

[40FlatDeck]

Also, when a "hot start" occurs, are you doomed to a rebuild? Are there systems to shut fuel off when this happens if you don't realize it? Is a hot start pretty common?

[Joe549]

Bob already answered the question about which boat it is in the opening video, but here are a few more pics of it and another youtube vid prior to the orange paint http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShO4K6ySfzg

[viperfitness1]

i worked on turbines in the air force for little over 6 years. run certified for GE F110,F118,F101,TF33,TF34 and pratt & whits F100 series

most of my knowledge is in test cell and complete overhauls

first pic is a F110 that is getting new stage one blades

second is a blurring pic of me inspecting LPT rotor blades after a long augmenter run on cell

ive got some really cool pics somewhere of a f110 that had a spare fairing left inside and it blew the augmenter section down the thrust tunnel after i put it in afterburner... heard a loud boom, seen sparks and started pressing fire suppression. scared the sh!t outa all of us! oh the good ol days

[Brad]

Great reading! Thanks

[KnotRight]

Bob already answered the question about which boat it is in the opening video, but here are a few more pics of it and another youtube vid prior to the orange paint http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShO4K6ySfzg

Hows those engines running?

Thats Double R,s correct?

[KnotRight]

Also, when a "hot start" occurs, are you doomed to a rebuild? Are there systems to shut fuel off when this happens if you don't realize it? Is a hot start pretty common?

Erik,
You can see it coming in the Pyrometer. Kill fuel and continue the spool.
Will drop the pyro almost instantly.

Wiring the Start fuel nozzles on a dedicated switch allows
the operator to kill the start fuel in the event of a Hot start.

I have had my Pyro pegged more then once. I was running home heating oil i had some plugged start fuel nozzles. let me tell you smoked more the a freight train and the pyro went to the moon.
Im at the dock and my crew was there holding the boat. I started spooling the starboard motor and I looked up and my crew were all freakin running away I looked behind me and the flame had to be 10 feet high:eek:
I just released the fuel and continued spooling exstinguishing the flame.
No damage occured what so ever.

There pretty stout engines and the more time you spend around them the more you get to know them.

[Bobthebuilder]

Hows those engines running?

Thats Double R,s correct?

I spoke with Raymond tonight and made him aware of the thread. He does not post but Peter sometimes does. He has had the boat up to 155 MPH with lots of throttle left. They had to back off and not go higher as there was no windshield on the boat yet. They had helmets on and were getting tossed around like "bobble heads" till they had a windshield. It was installed after the season finished up in Canada. He thinks it will top out at 180 but that is an estimate only at this time. He will know when the ice is off the lakes. I asked about the turbines and he says they are sweet since they were re built at PPS in Pheonix last year. Oh yes, the boat can be bought. One of the things I like about DoubleR is they will take on interesting projects like this. I had to laugh while watching the video Joe549 posted. At the 3:29 mark I went by in my old PREDATOR. It was on Lake Ontario near Toronto and I had no idea I was caught on video.
Bob

[KnotRight]

I spoke with Raymond tonight and made him aware of the thread. He does not post but Peter sometimes does. He has had the boat up to 155 MPH with lots of throttle left. They had to back off and not go higher as there was no windshield on the boat yet. They had helmets on and were getting tossed around like "bobble heads" till they had a windshield. It was installed after the season finished up in Canada. He thinks it will top out at 180 but that is an estimate only at this time. He will know when the ice is off the lakes. I asked about the turbines and he says they are sweet since they were re built at PPS in Pheonix last year. Oh yes, the boat can be bought. One of the things I like about DoubleR is they will take on interesting projects like this. I had to laugh while watching the video Joe549 posted. At the 3:29 mark I went by in my old PREDATOR. It was on Lake Ontario near Toronto and I had no idea I was caught on video.
Bob

Great news!
Glad I was able to steer him in the right direction.
If he is not burning Jet A Tell him Kerosene works very well.
The amount of smoke in his start up video tells me he may be burning
something else.

Bob I look forward to your next big adventure. Good luck and be safe.
Gerry

[macjazzy]

Nice Find Ken!


Anyone know the difference in this Turbine compared to 53,s and 55,s?

Hint it is a TF

Its a turbo fan engine. Has a set of longer blades on the compressor section that blow air rearward outside the compressor/turbine sections for added thrust. Used in airliners and some fighter planes. Not helicopters as they need to convert all the power the turbine makes into mechanical energy, ie into the gearbox.

The other main styles of jet engines would be turbo prop. The turbine powers a shaft that runs through the center of the jet forward to hook to a gearbox and power a propeller. Used in commuter Jets, C-130's, P-3's etc.

And TurboJets, all the power is used to generate thrust straight out the back of the engine. Mostly used in fighter jets and older jet planes. The least efficient of modern jet engines


At least I think that's right.....:willy_nilly::confused::willy_nilly::confused:

[YoungPerformance]

Excellent thread. I don't know my azz from a tree trunk when it comes to turbines. I am enjoying learning.
Eddie

[40FlatDeck]

Erik,
You can see it coming in the Pyrometer. Kill fuel and continue the spool.
Will drop the pyro almost instantly.

Wiring the Start fuel nozzles on a dedicated switch allows
the operator to kill the start fuel in the event of a Hot start.

I have had my Pyro pegged more then once. I was running home heating oil i had some plugged start fuel nozzles. let me tell you smoked more the a freight train and the pyro went to the moon.
Im at the dock and my crew was there holding the boat. I started spooling the starboard motor and I looked up and my crew were all freakin running away I looked behind me and the flame had to be 10 feet high:eek:
I just released the fuel and continued spooling exstinguishing the flame.
No damage occured what so ever.

There pretty stout engines and the more time you spend around them the more you get to know them.

:rofl:
So you better make sure you have a good set of batterys at hand to keep it spooling! How long does it take for startup? Is there a warm up period?

Sorry for all the questions!

Erik

[DONZI]

:rofl:
So you better make sure you have a good set of batterys at hand to keep it spooling! How long does it take for startup? Is there a warm up period?

Sorry for all the questions!

ErikYes, Good Batteries required. I think the Wet Start vid. i posted might have been from this reason .

Here's Gerry on a start up vid. that i took in Fairhaven Ma..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG2DxMmKj3g

[KnotRight]

:rofl:
So you better make sure you have a good set of batterys at hand to keep it spooling! How long does it take for startup? Is there a warm up period?

Sorry for all the questions!

Erik

You will know when you turn the key on.
The first you do is look at your voltage on that motor.
I wired it off a Standard marine key switch.
Position 1. Key on. Energizes, The fuel cut off solenoid. All gauges on.
Position 2 (Crank motor for piston application) energizes the start fuel
solenoids. In the event of a hot start this portion of the switch is spring
loaded you simply let go and it shuts down the xtra start fuel.
I have a completely independent momentary switch for the spool.
This is in the event of a start issue you can continue spooling cooling the
motor.

A start takes approx 20 seconds.
No warm up period once there lit there ready to Rock.

[KnotRight]

Yes, Good Batteries required. I think the Wet Start vid. i posted might have been from this reason .

Here's Gerry on a start up vid. that i took in Fairhaven Ma..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG2DxMmKj3g


The crowd loves the count down 3-2-1 Contact.
Boy I really do look like a geek!

[Chris]

No warm up period once there lit there ready to Rock.


Is it not important to bring the oil up to operating temp or does it come up that fast?

[boostbros]

anyone watch the discover ch a few years ago when some guys took the wings off a star fighter and were going to try for land speed attempt. during trying to fire it up after several trys they hot started and melted all the blades you could see them coming out the back it a great vid but i can,t find it it was a big engine j7 maybe? anyone else watch it? sometimes it was painful to watch!

[Chris]

That was the North American Eagle LSR project.

The F104 had a single a GE J-79 engine. The F-4 used two and the B-58 used four of them.

[Rik]

Is it not important to bring the oil up to operating temp or does it come up that fast?

Nope, once it's lit (in a boat) you can hammer the hell out of it and go. Just point and shoot.

[Rik]

Here's the warm up process

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khnqrqK8Zi0&feature=related

[KnotRight]

Is it not important to bring the oil up to operating temp or does it come up that fast?

No Chris the oil temperature in flight service according to the military
manual reads no minimum oil temperature warm up is required to achieve takeoff power. It does however give specifics about a over temp which
it reads anything over 93celcius write up required.
However I would consider some type of oil temp one would think
would be beneficial. I know I would never push my big blocks without some nice hot oil. The bearings are rollers and the seals carbon faced
which actually require oil and or compressor pressure on certain sides to seal properly.

One particular starting event I had was I had a seal actually stick and almost completely empty my sump tank The engine lit up and the pyro climbed
and there was a huge yellow flame which I think could have been viewed
from space. :eek: I shut her down and added 7 quarts and it never happened
again.

[boostbros]

http://www.vimeo.com/7379666 about 3/4 in the hot section is glowing red anyone seen that before?

[Rik]

http://www.vimeo.com/7379666 about 3/4 in the hot section is glowing red anyone seen that before?

I'm pretty sure that is the containment blanket. It is red from the start up.

[boostbros]

i think your right rik its just the way light hits it

[KnotRight]

What does the starter sytem look like and how does it work?

Here is the Starter/ Generator as Rik stated it doubles as a generator.

There are two versions of these a 200amp and a 300amp.

I paid 2500 each for these off a guy who bought 5000 of these off the
Army:eek:

The three polls fit a 00 lug one is ground, one is crank windings and the third
is Generator. Look closely you will see the exciter little #10 lugs.
When you put B+24 to this it will produce up to 300amps respectively.

This runs with the N1 system off a right angle drive and is always engaged.

[KnotRight]

Here is a picture out of my Student workbook that shows the
N1 and N2

N1= purple... Gas producer
N2= red .... Power Turbine


Note the bottom of the n1 with the studs on the right angle
that is where the Starter mounts.
SCS makes a right angle drive that will locate that above the engine for easy
Access.

[Rik]

Luckily, the Lycomings have a starter generator. The T-58's don't have this nor do some of the others other there. Try attaching a 400 amp alternator to an engine that has no pulleys :D

[nthdegree]

Luckily, the Lycomings have a starter generator. The T-58's don't have this nor do some of the others other there. Try attaching a 400 amp alternator to an engine that has no pulleys :D

we do it every day..it's called a gearbox....

[Rik]

we do it every day..it's called a gearbox....

So do I. It is just a lot easier when one does not have to make one or for the customer to not have to pay for one.

[Chris]

I saw a setup on a very early turbine rig where they were running an alternator and a water pump off of the output shaft. They had a pulley in between the shaft couplings.

[tango]

Gerry, do ya have a few photos of the rigging that you set up for your 12 volt alt./ power steering set up showing the pulley system with in the bell housing and the mounted external units ?

[MarylandMark]

I paid 2500 each for these off a guy who bought 5000 of these off the Army

Mfr: 9/68 Wow- when buying American meant you were getting some thing good!

[TCEd]

Mfr: 9/68 Wow- when buying American meant you were getting some thing good!

It's probably a Vietnam vet.
ed

[boostbros]

Ok so i just have to ask.....with the new light weight hulls like the mystic whos going to strap in a pair of blow torches out of something like the F15 and use just thrust? bet it would work and put on a show and some thunder for the spectators i remember seeing a big rig at the drag races a few years ago it had a single big maybe j79 engine i really did not take it to serious even during its show staging but when that thig took off it was amazing it even had the purple shock balls in the exaust it left us stunned..... to this day i,m surprized at how fast that thing accellerated! hey geico imagine hitting the afterburner coming into and out of key west for a little excitement!

[phragle]

Maybe it's just me... but thrust alone on someting that acutallydoes go airborne with unpredictable attitude is just kind of..scarey.. The dragster has 4 wheels on the ground controlling direction. Put that much thrust behind a mystic and as soon as it got a little air and got light, it would pobably resemble a ballon someone let the air out of..

[KnotRight]

As I stated in post 96 of starter relocation. the t53 has a accessory drive.
This would be a good place to attach a power steering pump. Ex. direct
drive KRC.

Here is a picture of the accessory gear it is at 2:00 oclock.

This is looking into the intake side with the planetarys removed.

Here is the way I rigged the power steering and alternator.

The drawback to this when I make a shift i loose the power steering
for a second.
It works but i am considering using the above idea.

[tango]

KR, is it easy to find the accessory drive unit and what is the approx. cost for one ?