Ford Sweeps Car and Truck of the Year

[Andrew]

Ford proved that the domestic auto industry is ripe for a comeback by winning the North American Car and Truck of the Year awards with its Fusion Hybrid sedan and Transit Connect van.

[Chris]

Who awarded that to them?

I'm beginning to think that the worst thing that could have happened to GM and Chrysler is bankruptcy. I don't know that they'll be able to catch up product-wise. I thing GM will be hamstrung by the inability to attract talent. And as far as Chrysler- if the US needed Fiats, they'd have already been here.

[MikeyFIN]

the Transit is a British Ford Van and a household name since the 60´s...
But other than that great for Ford and congrats.

[MikeyFIN]

Who awarded that to them?

I'm beginning to think that the worst thing that could have happened to GM and Chrysler is bankruptcy. I don't know that they'll be able to catch up product-wise. I thing GM will be hamstrung by the inability to attract talent. And as far as Chrysler- if the US needed Fiats, they'd have already been here.

GM is too conservative to attract talent as the beancounters have run the company for 40 yrs.
Still I watched with keen interest how Chevrolet would fare in WTCC.

One of the Worst things for GM to happen is loosing Opel to Fiat which is becoming a major stakeholder of Chrysler.
If Opel is gone from the GM stable there´s no brand to speak of for GM in Europe as Vauxhall was just a badge-engineered Opel and I can´t think GM would succeed in the future without a major selling brand in Europe.

[MarylandMark]

Who awarded that to them?


http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/about-nacoty.html

[MikeyFIN]

http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/jurors.html

[RLJ676]

Who awarded that to them?

I'm beginning to think that the worst thing that could have happened to GM and Chrysler is bankruptcy. I don't know that they'll be able to catch up product-wise. I thing GM will be hamstrung by the inability to attract talent. And as far as Chrysler- if the US needed Fiats, they'd have already been here.

I'd strongly beg to disagree.:USA:

I left Ford for a (better) job at GM Aug of 08. I am still happy with this move, despite all the constant internet ragging from armchair CEO's and right wing anti GM wack jobs.

The bankruptcy is terrible from a PR standpoint, and the fact the only way through it was with gov't funding is the worst aspect. If there had been any other available bank, the offer would have been taken. Unfortunately that wasn't the case at that time, and we are were we are.

However, there is not a tremendous amount of brain drain so far, and we are allowed to pay people competitively.

Further, our lineup is one of the reasons I came to GM. They had the better cars to me, and I still think that. If you look at the other finalists for COTY, the LaCrosse and Equinox could easily both have won. For truck of the year, the Transit is a silly choice. It's a low volume commercial van that's been around in Europe for years and gets mediocre milage, while being smaller than a real van (the Fusion hybrid is a great car though).

Check out the recent GM launches (LaCrosse, Equinox/Terrain, Camaro, CTS-V) and the upcoming ones shown at this autoshow (Regal, Cruze, Aveo - seriously). GM's lineup is not suffering because of the bankruptcy, and now the focus is even better after shedding brands. Ford does not have a single vehicle that we can not easily compete with (other than Fusion Hybrid actually) or exceed.

So, while Ford is doing pretty damn well, and is clearly the media darling these days (along with any Limbaugh type) they still have a ton of debt to overcome. GM does not have balance sheet problems and is launching hit after hit. I'd say GM will be more profitable in '10 than Ford.

Chrysler.....after seeing their Detroit Auto Show lineup, they really should have been liquidated. That volume disappearing would have greatly benefited Ford/GM.

Overall, Ford and GM leave no excuse for buying some boring Jap crap over the next several years.

[DollaBill]

Ford is enjoying a comeback. The American auto industry is not. GM and Chrysler should and will be gone eventually. They get what they deserve

[Spicy]

Ford proved that the domestic auto industry is ripe for a comeback by winning the North American Car and Truck of the Year awards with its Fusion Hybrid sedan and Transit Connect van.

I'm a Chevrolet Guy... I have a Company Vehicle and a Personel Vehicle both Chevrolet's... My Company I work for is a large Electrical Contractor and we buy approx 50 vehicles a year between the four different offices, which are all delivered ,lettered, tagged prepared etc for our employees at my office, we have used Chevrolet for as many years as I can imagine...

My owner wanted to switch this past fall, as we had an issue with size vans to buy, in short we operate our business with Vans and Pick ups, mostly Vans. When there is no Astro anymore it is hard to buy full size vehicles with gas and most importanly parking issues in Washington DC with full size...

I came back to the office after Thanksgiving break and the Ford Dealer had delivered a couple hand fulls of vehicles of FORD'S.... It just looked kind of weird seeing a few Full Size, Rangers and Transports in the parking lot when it has been Chevrolet for so many years...

My Silverado LT pick up is only 2 years old and the nicest in the Company so I dont have to worry about switching over for another two years roughly...

[RLJ676]

Ford is enjoying a comeback. The American auto industry is not. GM and Chrysler should and will be gone eventually. They get what they deserve

This would be the right wing anti-GM wack job talk I mentioned earlier.

[mj2562]

This would be the right wing anti-GM wack job talk I mentioned earlier.

Agreed! Cts-v, G8 Gxp , Duramax diesel, the list can go on and on! One question I have is when was the last time you could buy a boat w/ a Ford motor in it? Let find someone that put a 5.4 liter w/ all that fd up cam adjustment B.S. on it, and Feed it a Steady Diet of 5000 rpms and see how long it last. :cheers2: Bicycle chains and Marine environments I dont think so.

[03darkshadow]

im not a gm person, but i do like the dmax a lot better than the ford 6.4. also the camaro seems to be a better buy then a mustang GT (only because of the engine). other than these i would go for a Ford product any day. i looked at and test drove both a 1500 silverado and a F150. without a doubt the ford felt better and the interior looked better and the materials looked higher quality.

however, we have mostly GM trucks at work. they aren't the greatest quality. there are a few fords and they seem to hold up better. this is just what i've seen, no right winged anything.

[DollaBill]

I'm not any wing. I don't follow politics. But I am a fan of Darwin ;)

[Andrew]

This would be the right wing anti-GM wack job talk I mentioned earlier.

I understand you having to tote the current administration party line, they saved your skin. :seeya: :sifone:

[RLJ676]

I understand you having to tote the current administration party line, they saved your skin. :seeya: :sifone:

I wouldn't go that far....but I just can't see how some people fail to see the business case supported the move. It wasn't a give away with no return like we do all over the world which somehow ****es people off less than supporting a major industry and GDP contributor in this country?

I'm fiscally conservative (but definitely biased on this deal), but I'm pretty sure the task force did the business case to do what was best for the country. The "uaw vote" conspiracy's, etc crack me up. The task force's demands were tougher more cutthroat business moves than the companies would do on their own, to create viable companies. They weren't just bleeding heart handing it over.

[DollaBill]

bottom line is that if actual real-live business people were in office when the "crisis" hit the auto makers (which was 30 years in the making but hey, they were busy right) GM and Chrysler would be gone. Period. Business 101

[DollaBill]

I understand you having to tote the current administration party line, they saved your skin. :seeya: :sifone:

Oh it's fact they saved your job.

[Five Cent Worth]

I'd strongly beg to disagree.:USA:

I left Ford for a (better) job at GM Aug of 08. I am still happy with this move, despite all the constant internet ragging from armchair CEO's and right wing anti GM wack jobs.



Is it a better job for you or for all? Good to hear it worked out for you. :cheers2: Caddy has it going on and some GMC's. The Acadia (sp?) is awesome and will be our next family car. Nothing out there like it. :USA:

I have drove nothing but Ford's and GM my whole life. The Fusion that I have now is BY FAR the best car I have ever owned for many reasons.

I know one thing - stealing talent from the auto indusrty is like taking candy from a baby. I bet we hire an engineer, supply chain, packaging, etc out of the industry once every two weeks. Some of your peers don't feel the same...

[Andrew]

I wouldn't go that far....but I just can't see how some people fail to see the business case supported the move. It wasn't a give away with no return like we do all over the world which somehow ****es people off less than supporting a major industry and GDP contributor in this country?

I'm fiscally conservative (but definitely biased on this deal), but I'm pretty sure the task force did the business case to do what was best for the country. The "uaw vote" conspiracy's, etc crack me up. The task force's demands were tougher more cutthroat business moves than the companies would do on their own, to create viable companies. They weren't just bleeding heart handing it over.

The way the Bondholders got screwed is what really what soured me.

[RLJ676]

bottom line is that if actual real-live business people were in office when the "crisis" hit the auto makers (which was 30 years in the making but hey, they were busy right) GM and Chrysler would be gone. Period. Business 101

Please show me your in depth analysis showing how the lost tax revenue + increased other social support costs would be less than a yet unknown return on an investment. That would be some "business 101" I think we would all be curious to see.......

[RLJ676]

Is it a better job for you or for all? Good to hear it worked out for you. :cheers2: Caddy has it going on and some GMC's. The Acadia (sp?) is awesome and will be our next family car. Nothing out there like it. :USA:

I have drove nothing but Ford's and GM my whole life. The Fusion that I have now is BY FAR the best car I have ever owned for many reasons.

I know one thing - stealing talent from the auto indusrty is like taking candy from a baby. I bet we hire an engineer, supply chain, packaging, etc out of the industry once every two weeks. Some of your peers don't feel the same...

Yep, for me it's better but plenty aren't thrilled (but they aren't all top flight either). It'll be like there everywhere though.

I moved to Detroit from KC in 06 specifically to work in the auto industry, so I'm a little different than most for whom it's just another job.

What industry are you in?

[RLJ676]

The way the Bondholders got screwed is what really what soured me.

Agreed, but that happens in bankruptcy. GM's bondholders were mostly unsecured so no matter what (liquidation, normal bankruptcy) they would have end up screwed. People seem to forget that it's investing, and you are paid a return (interest). That interest is because there is risk of loss, it is not a sure thing. Many of those bondholders had also bought recently when rates/risk were already high.

I'd argue bankruptcy would never have happened without banking bozo's destroying the economy and then refusing to bank (ie lend).....but we've gone off topic far enough.

Ford Fusion Hybrid, great car. Transit Connect, blah small commercial van.

[Five Cent Worth]

What industry are you in?

Consumer Products. NWL. Sourcing, Quality and Packaging people have seemed to work out the best. The engineers can't take going from working on cars to: totes, brooms or pens you know....

Love the vet in your photo to the left. :cheers2:

[DollaBill]

Please show me your in depth analysis showing how the lost tax revenue + increased other social support costs would be less than a yet unknown return on an investment. That would be some "business 101" I think we would all be curious to see.......

I think you're stretching the "all". most members know me well and also know I'm pretty sharp, sport :sifone:

I'm done with this dead horse. It wall shake out in the end. Talk is cheap for everyone at this point.

[Chris]

I'd strongly beg to disagree.:USA:

.

I'm thinking purely from a senior executive standpoint when speaking of them being hamstrung- the inability to brovide the substantial incentives necessary to bring in a senior-l;evel superstar.

You're obviously closer to it than I am so maybe you could share your perspective on a couple of topics.


You jumped- aren't you concerned about GM's long-term ability to survive?

Does the fact that our government owns a big chunk of the company and exerts substantial influence concern you? Do you see that "interference" affecting product and marketing decisions?

Does the fact that the unions now own a substantial portion of the company and have board-level influence create cause for concern?

[RLJ676]

I think you're stretching the "all". most members know me well and also know I'm pretty sharp, sport :sifone:

I'm done with this dead horse. It wall shake out in the end. Talk is cheap for everyone at this point.

Sharpest guy in the world can't tell us how this business case will work out.....which is my point. Thanks.

[DollaBill]

You're def getting the auto bail-out cheerleader of the year award. lol

[RLJ676]

Consumer Products. NWL. Sourcing, Quality and Packaging people have seemed to work out the best. The engineers can't take going from working on cars to: totes, brooms or pens you know....

Love the vet in your photo to the left. :cheers2:

I'm in purchasing and work with logistics and quality pretty closely. It is all pretty applicable to many industries.

The engr part is different, although most only are really project mgrs. I can see them not translating to "less complex" products well.

[RLJ676]

You're def getting the auto bail-out cheerleader of the year award. lol

As you said....I have a job because of it (and do tons of my friends, neighbors, etc).:USA:

[DollaBill]

As you said....I have a job because of it (and do tons of my friends, neighbors, etc).:USA:

but at what ultimate price? the cost of everyone else's?

[RLJ676]

I'm thinking purely from a senior executive standpoint when speaking of them being hamstrung- the inability to brovide the substantial incentives necessary to bring in a senior-l;evel superstar.

You're obviously closer to it than I am so maybe you could share your perspective on a couple of topics.


You jumped- aren't you concerned about GM's long-term ability to survive?

Does the fact that our government owns a big chunk of the company and exerts substantial influence concern you? Do you see that "interference" affecting product and marketing decisions?

Does the fact that the unions now own a substantial portion of the company and have board-level influence create cause for concern?


From an executive standpoint it is more difficult, but not impossible. If you're up on GM news, which I doubt most are, we have picked up some new big time execs. We got the CFO from Microsoft just a few weeks ago, along with 2 top regulatory relations guys from ATT. We've gotten some leeway on salaries I believe for hiring new people. The task force/pay czar understands getting top talent takes realistic pay, and the "punishment" of cutting pay was for the top people that were already there.

The gov't and UAW ownership have the same influence on the day to day business, none. They seriously are like any other ownership in a public company. The trusts in charge of the investment put board members in place. Those board members only job is to ensure a return on investment. They do not put UAW interests or gov't (green is what I'm sure everyone's concerned with) ideals ahead of profit. I can honestly see this firsthand, and have not heard a single bit of this happening.

I was previously concerned about long term survival, but after the bailout the things I'm seeing in terms of new mgmt direction and lack of previously mentioned outside interference are very encouraging. Combined with the products I've been mentioning, which are truly impressive coming down the pipeline I think we are set. The balance sheet is good, the mgmt I think has most of this right, and we will sell vehicles on merit, not incentives. I think we have a bright future.

The new interim CEO Whitacre has said he thinks we'll be profitable in '10....I don't see why not.

[RLJ676]

but at what ultimate price? the cost of everyone else's?

How's that exactly?

Like I've said, there's nothing saying this won't be paid back. That equals saving a ton of jobs, and preventing a lengthening/deepening of a pretty bad recession for free? We know the worst case cost, but we don't know the best case (which would be a net positive return- unlikely).

[BUIZILLA]

As you said....I have a job because of it (and do tons of my friends, neighbors, etc).:USA: I remember an interview after the election that the person said > Obama says he is going to pay my mortgage and health insurance, and give me a job, so that's why I voted for him....

[BillR]

I hope GM and Chrysler do well!

That said, I just came back from a local car show last weekend. Of the domestic brands, Fords interiors looked VERY nice. The GM;s and Chrysler's still look like Hertz rentals. I was really interested in the new Camaro, but the cheap azz interior turned me off. The Mustang looks waaaay better. The Challenger was fair, but the seats were comfy - not sure that is what I would want in a muscle car though. . . .
Also paint quality of most of the GM's and some of the Chrysler looked lousy.
GM and Chrysler have a good bit of ground to make up.

I also believe we ALL should be buying American cars and keeping the profits and jobs in this counrty!!

[JupiterSunsation]

Glad Ford won, now the buyers of their diesels will have something to chat about when the tow truck driver is giving them a ride back to the dealership....... :D


GM/Chrysler got a pass at the expense of American taxpayers, bond holders got shafted (must be a warm and fuzzy feeling telling old people/fund managers that were bondholders that they aren't getting their money back despite being high up on the "debt" food chain......Keep in mind Chrysler was privately owned when it got govt. money....next time you can't keep payroll going/accts payable current would it be nice to have Uncle Sam send you a billion to "help" you get back on your feet?

[MarylandMark]

I remember an interview after the election that the person said > Obama says he is going to pay my mortgage and health insurance, and give me a job, so that's why I voted for him....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI :)

FIL bought a Chevy some thing car 2 years ago and a GM truck a few months ago. Chevy car is nicer than say an Accord, feels more solid, seats are built for plumper Americans vs skinny Asians (without offending but trying to get my point across) and few other things that seem nicer.

His truck- nice and traded an 06 F350 KR with less than 20K miles in on it. 1500 series or whatever the loaded but bottom of the line duty wise one is. He wanted gas vs diesel and some thing that wasn't such a "truck" to drive. He only towed a 2480 Trition or a Kabota tractor with his last truck, this one he'll do that as well as run to the store or whatever since it is easy.

Fords in my driveway; going to be a bitter taste for not letting them fail in my mouth for a long, long time.

[JupiterSunsation]

Mark....borrow that 1500 if it has the 5.3 motor, it will burn rubber around the block! They shift nicely too when the bumper is taking up the next lane and white smoke is pouring out of the wheel wells!

[Blue Oval]

Way to go Ford! I'll take anything I can to help sales!

[Wobble]

[Fords in my driveway; going to be a bitter taste for not letting them fail in my mouth for a long, long time.

I thought I'd better preserve this statement just for giggles:sifone:

[Tommy Gun]

Please show me your in depth analysis showing how the lost tax revenue + increased other social support costs would be less than a yet unknown return on an investment. That would be some "business 101" I think we would all be curious to see.......

And what will you say if the return is ZERO????

Fact is the UAW was paid off for its support in the election and the bondholders got screwed when, according to backruptcy law, they would have recieved more than the unions in a bankruptcy. NO Gov't Motors ever for me...until or if they ever pay the gov't back. NO MORE SOCIALISM.

[RLJ676]

Way to go Ford! I'll take anything I can to help sales!

Have you guys had much interest in the transit connect?

I'm guessing the Fusion Hybrid's move as fast as they land on the lot?

[Tommy Gun]

How's that exactly?

Like I've said, there's nothing saying this won't be paid back. That equals saving a ton of jobs, and preventing a lengthening/deepening of a pretty bad recession for free? We know the worst case cost, but we don't know the best case (which would be a net positive return- unlikely).

Do we really know the worst case...do have a crystal ball? WTF do you think will happen if they go under now? After all there's nothing saying it WILL be paid back.

[BUIZILLA]

actually, the GM president was smooching with Pelosi, :kiss: and said there will be a landslide payback.... I guess we'll see...

[RLJ676]

Do we really know the worst case...do have a crystal ball? WTF do you think will happen if they go under now? After all there's nothing saying it WILL be paid back.

Worst case is all the money invested is lost. Thought that was clear.

[Blue Oval]

Have you guys had much interest in the transit connect?

I'm guessing the Fusion Hybrid's move as fast as they land on the lot?

We have not sold a Transit Connect, lost 4 restaurants in town in the last year, great van for food service or light delivery, all the places that could use them are fightig to stay in buisness!

[Tommy Gun]

Worst case is all the money invested is lost. Thought that was clear.

Yea, taxpayers money...and the "disaster" that was averted would just be postponed.

I really like the way Pelosi is patting herself on the back...wonder how good sales would have been if the Gov't didn't subsidize them too????????????????

[Knot 4 Me]

Been a GM man since '79 with well over 30 GM purchases made. And based on all that hands-on experience, I have not owned a GM car since 2001. Toyota has since filled the bill for my cars with 2 sitting in my garage right now. They simply do not go in to to the shop for anything and perform exactly as needed for my wife and son. I'm the last GM hold out in the family with a '06 Denali XL. With the exception of an '88 Calais I owned with the infamous Quad 4 motor, the Denali is hands down the worst GM vehicle I have owned in terms of quality. I can tell you that the odds of it being replaced with another GM product are quite slim. I'm looking to trade it off this weekend so we'll see what I come up with. I've been quite impressed with Ford's current lineup. Much more so than GM's lineup. And as a taxpayer, I like that Ford did not take any of my money to stay in business. That just might earn them my business after all these years.

[DollaBill]

And what will you say if the return is ZERO????

Fact is the UAW was paid off for its support in the election and the bondholders got screwed when, according to backruptcy law, they would have recieved more than the unions in a bankruptcy. NO Gov't Motors ever for me...until or if they ever pay the gov't back. NO MORE SOCIALISM.

Thank you. I was starting to think I was the only one around here thinking clearly.

[DollaBill]

Yea, taxpayers money...and the "disaster" that was averted would just be postponed.

I really like the way Pelosi is patting herself on the back...wonder how good sales would have been if the Gov't didn't subsidize them too????????????????

It's just like the real estate/banking bail out disaster. Everything done was just a delay of whats going to happen anyway. And it's coming.

[sledge]

You guys that think GM/Fiat should've been shut down....how much do you think it would've cost to support all the people that would've been out of work? Don't forget to include all the collateral damage.

Consider the idea that taking care of all these people would've been a much greater example of socialism than trying to keep the business going.

I'd much rather borrow $50Billion @ .25% to have a shot at getting some/most/all of it back, rather than just throwing $50B at people with no chance of ever getting it back.

I like the new Buicks, would drive a Caddy and will continue to drive GM trucks.

[Wobble]

Been a GM man since '79 with well over 30 GM purchases made. And based on all that hands-on experience, I have not owned a GM car since 2001. Toyota has since filled the bill for my cars with 2 sitting in my garage right now. They simply do not go in to to the shop for anything and perform exactly as needed for my wife and son. I'm the last GM hold out in the family with a '06 Denali XL. With the exception of an '88 Calais I owned with the infamous Quad 4 motor, the Denali is hands down the worst GM vehicle I have owned in terms of quality. I can tell you that the odds of it being replaced with another GM product are quite slim. I'm looking to trade it off this weekend so we'll see what I come up with. I've been quite impressed with Ford's current lineup. Much more so than GM's lineup. And as a taxpayer, I like that Ford did not take any of my money to stay in business. That just might earn them my business after all these years.

I have been a GM buyer for the same period, probably close to sixty vehicles. You will not find an import car or truck on my property, period.

In all those vehicles which we run to 225,000 or 250,000 miles I have only been inside one engine, (lifter noise on a 96 Tahoe). Less than 8 transmission rebuilds and two for rear end work (1 under warranty)

I'm not saying a Toyota couldn't do the same (after all they have done well by copying us and listening to our experts), but I am not spending my money there when I can buy American.

[rschap1]

Personally I am a Ford fan and glad to see them get any good press they can. I also have a lot of former co-workers and friends that are GM employees. Would love to see them and GM do as well as possible, but the last few years I have really soured towards GM trucks, cars, dealers, service, and policies. I have gotten treated poorly by local dealer, and some of the recall driven "fixes" are worse than the problem that they were forced to fix. While I wish all the workers well, I do have to say GM's troubles do not surprise me. Not to say that it doesn't look like the media is just "jumping on a bandwagon" either. It has been a LONG time since I have seen Ford (or any domestic) rated better than an import, but it seems to be what everyone wants to say these days. Going with the flow...

My .02 (from personal experiences)

[Hard Charger]

Competition coupled with incentive is what made this country great. That’s what inspires people to succeed not leveling the playing field, bailouts and government control. That’s a one way ticket to mediocritize and Socialism…

No where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights states the Government was created to provide for us. The Revolutionary War (War of Independence for those who don’t follow history) was fought for fewer reasons than we’re currently facing.:USA:

[Knot 4 Me]

I have been a GM buyer for the same period, probably close to sixty vehicles. You will not find an import car or truck on my property, period.

In all those vehicles which we run to 225,000 or 250,000 miles I have only been inside one engine, (lifter noise on a 96 Tahoe). Less than 8 transmission rebuilds and two for rear end work (1 under warranty)

I'm not saying a Toyota couldn't do the same (after all they have done well by copying us and listening to our experts), but I am not spending my money there when I can buy American.Coming from a UAW family, I used to be the same way (no foreign vehicles on my property). I fault no one who has this philosophy. I also offer no apologies for having two of those damn furrin' cars in my garage. I believe my ratio keeps me in the pro-American lot. My trucks will always be American. My cars will be whatever fancies my wife. And right now she fancies Toyota. I believe I heard her mention Nissan the other day. Oh my! :eek: :sifone:

[Tommy Gun]

You guys that think GM/Fiat should've been shut down....how much do you think it would've cost to support all the people that would've been out of work? Don't forget to include all the collateral damage.

Consider the idea that taking care of all these people would've been a much greater example of socialism than trying to keep the business going.

I'd much rather borrow $50Billion @ .25% to have a shot at getting some/most/all of it back, rather than just throwing $50B at people with no chance of ever getting it back.

I like the new Buicks, would drive a Caddy and will continue to drive GM trucks.

Is every company that declared bankruptcy out of business? NO. The assets would have been spun off and sold to the highest bidder; someone would have stepped in to buy the compnay or parts of it and restored it to health with a competetive approach; more union concessions or no union workers and built a solid company or companies based on sound business practices. Happens every day. Look whats happening anyway...no Saturn, no Pontiac...this all could have been done without taxpayer money. This is ALL ABOUT POLITICAL PAYBACK TO THE UAW. Geeez, they ended up declaring bankrupcy anyway just to screw certain creditors; borders on criminal if you ask me.

[Five Cent Worth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI :)



That's f'n unreal..... :cuss: :smash:

Love me some Ford's. Have had the old SHO, Lightning, Supercoupe, reg. Thunderbird and now the Fusion.

[RLJ676]

Is every company that declared bankruptcy out of business? NO. The assets would have been spun off and sold to the highest bidder; someone would have stepped in to buy the compnay or parts of it and restored it to health with a competetive approach; more union concessions or no union workers and built a solid company or companies based on sound business practices. Happens every day. Look whats happening anyway...no Saturn, no Pontiac...this all could have been done without taxpayer money. This is ALL ABOUT POLITICAL PAYBACK TO THE UAW. Geeez, they ended up declaring bankrupcy anyway just to screw certain creditors; borders on criminal if you ask me.

Yeah, because sales of auto mfg's have all gone real well. That capacity would not have been bought or bought for pennies on the dollar. GM would be liquidated, a tiny fraction bought, and more former great US things owned by foreigners. That would be real great for the US (oh, and the lenders all end up completely screwed anyways).

This country's lack of realization that the market is not free, and the competition values their big industry and protects them is pathetic. I'm so ****ing sick of uninformed "Americans" rooting against the home team, while the competition they root for (and site for not needing this help or that) has been propped up by their gov'ts all along.

Go sell a foreign car in Japan, Korea, China and see how that goes as a foreign entity. Yet here we are dumb enough to root for them to win. They get it, we don't. Modern "war" is economic, and we are going down the ****ter. What happens when they decide they no longer want to keep buying our debt in USD, or at all? We have a constant flow out of money, combined with huge debt to everyone. Real power is earned by being a lender, not owing everyone.

So keep rooting for GM to fail to prove some idiotic point of yours, so that you lose your tax investment.

You can't claim " let capitalism decide" for the US when you are competing on a foreign stage that has no concept of a "fair fight". But I guess you guys think all this country needs is bankers and waiters, why make anything or actually create value.

[Lee]

Yeah, because sales of auto mfg's have all gone real well. That capacity would not have been bought or bought for pennies on the dollar. GM would be liquidated, a tiny fraction bought, and more former great US things owned by foreigners. That would be real great for the US (oh, and the lenders all end up completely screwed anyways).

This country's lack of realization that the market is not free, and the competition values their big industry and protects them is pathetic. I'm so ****ing sick of uninformed "Americans" rooting against the home team, while the competition they root for (and site for not needing this help or that) has been propped up by their gov'ts all along.

Go sell a foreign car in Japan, Korea, China and see how that goes as a foreign entity. Yet here we are dumb enough to root for them to win. They get it, we don't. Modern "war" is economic, and we are going down the ****ter. What happens when they decide they no longer want to keep buying our debt in USD, or at all? We have a constant flow out of money, combined with huge debt to everyone. Real power is earned by being a lender, not owing everyone.

So keep rooting for GM to fail to prove some idiotic point of yours, so that you lose your tax investment.

You can't claim " let capitalism decide" for the US when you are competing on a foreign stage that has no concept of a "fair fight". But I guess you guys think all this country needs is bankers and waiters, why make anything or actually create value.

+1 Great post:USA:

[DollaBill]

Yeah, because sales of auto mfg's have all gone real well. That capacity would not have been bought or bought for pennies on the dollar. GM would be liquidated, a tiny fraction bought, and more former great US things owned by foreigners. That would be real great for the US (oh, and the lenders all end up completely screwed anyways).

This country's lack of realization that the market is not free, and the competition values their big industry and protects them is pathetic. I'm so ****ing sick of uninformed "Americans" rooting against the home team, while the competition they root for (and site for not needing this help or that) has been propped up by their gov'ts all along.

Go sell a foreign car in Japan, Korea, China and see how that goes as a foreign entity. Yet here we are dumb enough to root for them to win. They get it, we don't. Modern "war" is economic, and we are going down the ****ter. What happens when they decide they no longer want to keep buying our debt in USD, or at all? We have a constant flow out of money, combined with huge debt to everyone. Real power is earned by being a lender, not owing everyone.

So keep rooting for GM to fail to prove some idiotic point of yours, so that you lose your tax investment.

You can't claim " let capitalism decide" for the US when you are competing on a foreign stage that has no concept of a "fair fight". But I guess you guys think all this country needs is bankers and waiters, why make anything or actually create value.

Create value? last time I checked the only thing that depreciated faster than our boats were the vehicles towing them.

[Wobble]

Yeah, because sales of auto mfg's have all gone real well. That capacity would not have been bought or bought for pennies on the dollar. GM would be liquidated, a tiny fraction bought, and more former great US things owned by foreigners. That would be real great for the US (oh, and the lenders all end up completely screwed anyways).

This country's lack of realization that the market is not free, and the competition values their big industry and protects them is pathetic. I'm so ****ing sick of uninformed "Americans" rooting against the home team, while the competition they root for (and site for not needing this help or that) has been propped up by their gov'ts all along.

Go sell a foreign car in Japan, Korea, China and see how that goes as a foreign entity. Yet here we are dumb enough to root for them to win. They get it, we don't. Modern "war" is economic, and we are going down the ****ter. What happens when they decide they no longer want to keep buying our debt in USD, or at all? We have a constant flow out of money, combined with huge debt to everyone. Real power is earned by being a lender, not owing everyone.

So keep rooting for GM to fail to prove some idiotic point of yours, so that you lose your tax investment.

You can't claim " let capitalism decide" for the US when you are competing on a foreign stage that has no concept of a "fair fight". But I guess you guys think all this country needs is bankers and waiters, why make anything or actually create value.

Great post.

I have travelled extensively and cant remember how many times that I have been told that they would love to own a Mustang, Corvette, Camaro even full size pickups etc. But they never would because import duties on foreign made cars, especially American made were prohibitive.

[Indy]

This would be the right wing anti-GM wack job talk I mentioned earlier.

Put me in that boat too. I've had a few Chevy's along with their flagship car and that's exactly why I own Fords now.

[hotjava66]

although this thread is totally off topic i will chime in. i live and do business in an area that was totally based on GM for our economy, and know first hand some of the situation. it is bittersweet for me because i am an american through and through and want to see our companies do well. unfortunately GM was a poorly managed, run into the ground mess, robbed by its labor and management from top to bottom. i knew and know many people who worked there including family that did little or nothing and made big money, benefits, retirement etc. the union workers here saw GM as the enemy, even though they made great money, and stole everything they could, management had no control so did not care what happened as long as they were paid. the only people here that could afford their products were those who were building them. i knew people in their "jobs bank" program that were paid 90% of their wage to stay home for 3 years because they were not needed but could not be let go due to contract. GM also had many times more retired people drawing pensions than they had working. it was destined for failure for many years in my opinion. the bailout situation not only screwed the bondholders but many suppliers in the state, who were owed millions but got nothing, due to the bypassing of the bankruptcy system. those companies folded and millions of jobs were lost, all to save the union boys and their votes. this state is in dire straights now regardless of the bailout, due to too much government, taxes, and unions and their attitudes towards business. i still buy US because i love this country but it burns my *ss to support bad business, greed. my business is crap because of all this, and im not getting a bailout, i just work harder for less and try to survive. my biggest problem now is if the gov has controlling interest in gm who votes those shares? it will be the special interests and campaign funders who have run this country into the ground. i hope GM recovers but they need major changes to do so and goverment running them is not it. hard work, innovation, production, effeciency, is what will save not only GM but our country, not goverment or taxes. goverment does need to be on the side of business, but not in this fashion. i agree w/RLJ that we all need to create value, the so called "new economy" is the death of our national economy in my opinion. everyone here wants to sit around and do nothing and be paid well for it. it is human nature, but it used to be if you didnt do *hit you dont have *hit. not anymore, where else in the world are all the "poor" people fat?

[Tommy Gun]

Yeah, because sales of auto mfg's have all gone real well. That capacity would not have been bought or bought for pennies on the dollar. GM would be liquidated, a tiny fraction bought, and more former great US things owned by foreigners. That would be real great for the US (oh, and the lenders all end up completely screwed anyways).

This country's lack of realization that the market is not free, and the competition values their big industry and protects them is pathetic. I'm so ****ing sick of uninformed "Americans" rooting against the home team, while the competition they root for (and site for not needing this help or that) has been propped up by their gov'ts all along.

Go sell a foreign car in Japan, Korea, China and see how that goes as a foreign entity. Yet here we are dumb enough to root for them to win. They get it, we don't. Modern "war" is economic, and we are going down the ****ter. What happens when they decide they no longer want to keep buying our debt in USD, or at all? We have a constant flow out of money, combined with huge debt to everyone. Real power is earned by being a lender, not owing everyone.

So keep rooting for GM to fail to prove some idiotic point of yours, so that you lose your tax investment.

You can't claim " let capitalism decide" for the US when you are competing on a foreign stage that has no concept of a "fair fight". But I guess you guys think all this country needs is bankers and waiters, why make anything or actually create value.

Listen, last thing I want is GM to fail to prove a point. Point is GM ALREADY FAILED. You think I want to buy a Jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy UAW and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want ME to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? ZERO. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...I buy American evey chance I get, unless it's CRAP, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

[Tommy Gun]

Two words to reinforce my point: JOB BANK

The elimination of the Job Bank should save GM quite a lot in payroll expenses. Whereas employees in the Job Bank made nearly 100 percent of their normal wages – despite not having to report for work – the new system will see out-of-work employees making about 72 percent of their normal wages, according to Automotive News.

So the new system provides out-of-work employess 72 percent of their normal wages...wow that's some real hardship right there. :eek:

And the UAW "allowed it" wow, what generous guys they are...considering the alternative was NO WORK.

[JupiterSunsation]

Listen, last thing I want is GM to fail to prove a point. Point is GM ALREADY FAILED. You think I want to buy a Jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy UAW and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want ME to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? ZERO. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...I buy American evey chance I get, unless it's CRAP, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

+1 Best post I have read on any subject! ( and I like GM cars).

RJ don't take the posts personally, they reflect GM as a whole company not you as a single worker. I believe all the UAW plants suffer from the same bad management that has killed the chance of any American automaker of being the #1 worldwide......

[Knot 4 Me]

listen, last thing i want is gm to fail to prove a point. Point is gm already failed. You think i want to buy a jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy uaw and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want me to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? Zero. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...i buy american evey chance i get, unless it's crap, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years. + 2.

[DollaBill]

Listen, last thing I want is GM to fail to prove a point. Point is GM ALREADY FAILED. You think I want to buy a Jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy UAW and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want ME to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? ZERO. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...I buy American evey chance I get, unless it's CRAP, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

+3. game over

[JohnS]

TG hit the nail on the head.
Anytime the gov't "invests" in anything, its with our money. Some of us don't feel bailing out a failed company is a prudent investment. But we taxpayers have no choice and no say but the only thing certain is we will get the bill for it. Those tax dollars could have gone to a better initiative or investment, or heck, just let us keep it and invest in our own companies. And for the record, I'm a GM guy too.

[RLJ676]

Listen, last thing I want is GM to fail to prove a point. Point is GM ALREADY FAILED. You think I want to buy a Jap car to prove a point? Geez, point is the greedy UAW and stupid management already ruined the company, and now you want ME to help fix it? Screw that, what help has my company rec'vd? ZERO. You want to make a living? Go to work and compete for it like the rest of us have to every day. But no, you'd prefer the gov't to bail your sorry azzes out and come up with every excuse in the book to justify it. Bottom line is you can't jusitfy it...I buy American evey chance I get, unless it's CRAP, which unfortunately is all the best paid, highest qualified well trained workers in the world have been producing for the last 20 years.

Nobody wanted the gov't to bail out GM. But when the financial system collapses, and the banks won't loan to anyone (GM to add liquidity or car shoppers to buy) the gov't was the only option. GM has clearly made many mistakes, but the biggest is being so large in the past. The hundreds of thousands of workers from the past collecting benefits are not an easy problem to solve, and nobody giving them those benefits foresaw a future competing with the world who has none of those burdens! Combine that with bankers greed collapsing the entire financial system and you have 2008.


Two words to reinforce my point: JOB BANK

The elimination of the Job Bank should save GM quite a lot in payroll expenses. Whereas employees in the Job Bank made nearly 100 percent of their normal wages – despite not having to report for work – the new system will see out-of-work employees making about 72 percent of their normal wages, according to Automotive News.

So the new system provides out-of-work employess 72 percent of their normal wages...wow that's some real hardship right there. :eek:

And the UAW "allowed it" wow, what generous guys they are...considering the alternative was NO WORK.

This is an old article (what's the date on it?). 99.9% sure the stupid jobs banks are gone now. They were an abused system and far too large, but you realize when demand fluctuates and your labor need goes up and down, it's not too easy to hire and fire people who are supposed to be well trained. The transplants do the same thing, they just have a smaller workforce.

[RLJ676]

+3. game over

If by game over you mean the investments been made and there's nothing that'll undo it, than yeah the game's over.

Now if you want to continue going around harping on GM so you lose your investment you're so pissed about........I can't see any logic there.

If you don't like the new cars, don't buy them. But your nonsense about GM accomplishes nothing.

[RLJ676]

+1 Best post I have read on any subject! ( and I like GM cars).

RJ don't take the posts personally, they reflect GM as a whole company not you as a single worker. I believe all the UAW plants suffer from the same bad management that has killed the chance of any American automaker of being the #1 worldwide......

I try not to get worked up about this.

It's not easy working in such a visible industry where everyone is an armchair CEO. It was annoying before the recession, it's hell now.

It's just funny how everyone has these loud opinions when they pretty clearly know nothing about the company or industry.

[DollaBill]

If by game over you mean the investments been made and there's nothing that'll undo it, than yeah the game's over.

Now if you want to continue going around harping on GM so you lose your investment you're so pissed about........I can't see any logic there.

If you don't like the new cars, don't buy them. But your nonsense about GM accomplishes nothing.

I didnt say it would accomplish anything. This is a forum where members express opinion and debate issues.

And it seems my opinion isn't the only response you consider nonsense. I'm discussing an issue and don't want to too abrasive. You're a member here and I'm sure we would get along well as most of us do. I just wanted to get that out there :cheers2:

[RLJ676]

I didnt say it would accomplish anything. This is a forum where members express opinion and debate issues.

And it seems my opinion isn't the only response you consider nonsense. I'm discussing an issue and don't want to too abrasive. You're a member here and I'm sure we would get along well as most of us do. I just wanted to get that out there :cheers2:

Trust me, a lot of people I have a ton of things in common with and I disagree pretty completely on this issue.:willy_nilly: Seeing your posts, we would pretty much agree on everything else I believe.:sifone:

Like I said, there is a ton of parts moving in what has happened, and just sucks to see all the negativity from so many Americans that aren't aware of most of it. I work with globally with people all over the world, and there's just a difference in their attitude in supporting their companies (that their gov't shares) that this country lacks. I just can't see the value in someone boycotting GM for this reason. If you hate the cars, had a crappy one in the past, etc, that I get.

[mosi]

When a person says "Buy American.".....does that mean HONDA?

[JupiterSunsation]

I try not to get worked up about this.

It's not easy working in such a visible industry where everyone is an armchair CEO. It was annoying before the recession, it's hell now.

It's just funny how everyone has these loud opinions when they pretty clearly know nothing about the company or industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50qSV_F-nAE

Very sad HBO documentary about closing GM's Dayton SUV plant......If you have an hour to kill you will be sad by the end of the video.....

[RLJ676]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50qSV_F-nAE

Very sad HBO documentary about closing GM's Dayton SUV plant......If you have an hour to kill you will be sad by the end of the video.....

I've seen it.

Last month I was in Pontiac at a stamping facility that was closing down another building. Parking lot's made to hold thousands of cars with less than 50 in them. The remaining massive building that used to be full of presses now has a few lines and the rest is full of service parts. It was real depressing.

[Tommy Gun]

Nobody wanted the gov't to bail out GM. But when the financial system collapses, and the banks won't loan to anyone (GM to add liquidity or car shoppers to buy) the gov't was the only option. GM has clearly made many mistakes, but the biggest is being so large in the past. The hundreds of thousands of workers from the past collecting benefits are not an easy problem to solve, and nobody giving them those benefits foresaw a future competing with the world who has none of those burdens! Combine that with bankers greed collapsing the entire financial system and you have 2008.



This is an old article (what's the date on it?). 99.9% sure the stupid jobs banks are gone now. They were an abused system and far too large, but you realize when demand fluctuates and your labor need goes up and down, it's not too easy to hire and fire people who are supposed to be well trained. The transplants do the same thing, they just have a smaller workforce.

1-28-2009 Less than a year ago and after they had already gone a begging to the gov't for money; via private jet.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/uaw-allows-gm-to-eliminate-job-bank.html

[RLJ676]

1-28-2009 Less than a year ago and after they had already gone a begging to the gov't for money; via private jet.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/uaw-allows-gm-to-eliminate-job-bank.html

Gone now though.....

[Tommy Gun]

Gone now though.....

Yeah I thinks its great that the company is going down the tubes and they still had a job bank...go UAW! Guess they really needed those guys in reserve in case someone happened to place a random order for a million cars.

[BBB725]

Gone now though.....

Correct, what's the latest on retiree health care obligations?

Who's funding it now? Union or Company?

And I'm not being a wise guy, Last I heard GM was going to contribute 35 billion to the fund to relive itself of further obligation.

[RLJ676]

Yeah I thinks its great that the company is going down the tubes and they still had a job bank...go UAW! Guess they really needed those guys in reserve in case someone happened to place a random order for a million cars.

It was a contract. What do you want? It was a costly deal for the company, but the UAW IS NOT what broke GM, so why do you keep going on about it? I don't like the UAW/unions, but I know that they were not the problem that caused bankruptcy.


Correct, what's the latest on retiree health care obligations?

Who's funding it now? Union or Company?

And I'm not being a wise guy, Last I heard GM was going to contribute 35 billion to the fund to relive itself of further obligation.

Not sure the dollar amounts, but basically all of those liabilities were turned to equity ownership. The UAW will only get their fund money now if GM does well and the IPO makes them a lot of money.

Back to the thread though......anyone driven a Fusion hybrid?:USA: (I really wasn't trying to drive this into a GM discussion, was just responding to comments on it)

[Tommy Gun]

The hundreds of thousands of workers from the past collecting benefits are not an easy problem to solve, and nobody giving them those benefits foresaw a future competing with the world who has none of those burdens! Combine that with bankers greed collapsing the entire financial system and you have 2008.

It was a contract. What do you want? It was a costly deal for the company, but the UAW IS NOT what broke GM, so why do you keep going on about it? I don't like the UAW/unions, but I know that they were not the problem that caused bankruptcy.

So the UAW didn't have anything to do with negotiating legacy costs thru collective bargaining? The burdens you speak of, were those not thte result of the UAW's negotiations thru collective bargaining? So you say the costs are the problem, but at the same time say that it's not the UAW's fault? :eek: They can agree to modify a contract at any time...they held the automakers hostage while the rest of the world was passing them by. Greedy bankers, yes; greedy unions...absolutely.

So if legacy costs add thousands to the price of each car, and GM can't compete with the Japs on price and quality...whose fault is it?

[clayinaustin]

Getting this thread back on track... So Ford wins the latest "car of the year". Big deal. :rolleyes:

GM won big last year. http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/2008.html

Ford only had one vehicle (Edge) the year before that http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/2007.html

It sounds to me like it was Ford's "turn" to win. :rolleyes:

[sledge]

So the UAW didn't have anything to do with negotiating legacy costs thru collective bargaining? The burdens you speak of, were those not thte result of the UAW's negotiations thru collective bargaining? So you say the costs are the problem, but at the same time say that it's not the UAW's fault? :eek: They can agree to modify a contract at any time...they held the automakers hostage while the rest of the world was passing them by. Greedy bankers, yes; greedy unions...absolutely.

So if legacy costs add thousands to the price of each car, and GM can't compete with the Japs on price and quality...whose fault is it?

I think people need to consider whether they're disappointed with General Motors the car company, versus the United Auto Workers union. Sure people can go on about GM execs being complacent in bargaining with UAW and not helping out the co in the long term. But I think people need to seperate the union from the company to a certain extent.

Anybody would be hard pressed to defend the union for its responsibility in contributing to the problems. The union's greed is second only to bankers' when it comes to hurting companies. But when you talk about "the auto industry" and "the big three" you're talking about a heck of a lot more than just the UAW.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the hypocrisy I read from some of you guys sometimes. In one thread you b!tch about Wall Street making tons of money. In the next you cry out for bondholders that got crushed; if they would've taken equity for their debt they wouldn't have lost as much, if anything. In one thread you b!tch about "Us-the taxpayer" bailing out what should be our pride and joy; in another you complain that all of our manufacturing is being moved offshore (how 'bout those Chinese Hummers?)

So what the phuck do you people want? Sacrifice a little, save what we have. Or just b!tch and moan until we've got nothing left. :USA:

FWIW, "we-the taxpayers" EARNED $45 BILLION on our "investments" through the TARP so far. The numbers coming out today indicate there's still approx $120Billion outstanding to be paid back. It's only been ONE YEAR and change since "we" gave/lent/invested this money. Chump change IMHO compared to the money "WE-THE TAXPAYER" have spent over the last 9 years to subsidize the rest of the world.

[Birdog]

GM will fail again for the same reason they failed before..They stil dont understand they are building crappy cars. Crap fit and finish, crap paint, crap interiors...

My ford TRUCK is twice as well built as my Pontiac (I wont even get into my Jeep LOL}

If thry were selling cars, nobody would even be talking about the unions, This is GMs excuse

[DollaBill]

I'm looking at cars right now. If I get another SUV it will be another Expedition. If I get a car I will look at the Lincoln MKZ and a couple imports. GM isn't even on my radar.

[MarylandMark]

I'm not looking so haven't done a comparison, but I like the looks of the Caddys better than the Lincolns

[DollaBill]

I'm not looking so haven't done a comparison, but I like the looks of the Caddys better than the Lincolns

Actually, you're right about that. The caddys are very nice. But, I still won't buy one. Ford is a company that deserves my business IF I buy American.

[BBB725]

So the UAW didn't have anything to do with negotiating legacy costs thru collective bargaining? The burdens you speak of, were those not thte result of the UAW's negotiations thru collective bargaining? So you say the costs are the problem, but at the same time say that it's not the UAW's fault? :eek: They can agree to modify a contract at any time...they held the automakers hostage while the rest of the world was passing them by. Greedy bankers, yes; greedy unions...absolutely.

So if legacy costs add thousands to the price of each car, and GM can't compete with the Japs on price and quality...whose fault is it?

Management, for not standing up for the share holders

The one thing your leaving out of this equation is it takes two side to agree in collective bargaining. The UAW will ask for as much as they can get but it is up to the boys upstairs to say yes or no. Look at Caterpillar they said no and now have dumped the life time health care back on the union, have realistic rules in place along with lower starting wages.

[phragle]

From an executive standpoint it is more difficult, but not impossible. If you're up on GM news, which I doubt most are, we have picked up some new big time execs. We got the CFO from Microsoft just a few weeks ago, .


Microsloth?? does this mean that all new GM's will be insanely bloated, overpriced and crash on their own for no appearant reason??

[Tommy Gun]

So what the phuck do you people want? Sacrifice a little, save what we have. Or just b!tch and moan until we've got nothing left. :USA:

FWIW, "we-the taxpayers" EARNED $45 BILLION on our "investments" through the TARP so far. The numbers coming out today indicate there's still approx $120Billion outstanding to be paid back. It's only been ONE YEAR and change since "we" gave/lent/invested this money. Chump change IMHO compared to the money "WE-THE TAXPAYER" have spent over the last 9 years to subsidize the rest of the world.

Well I for one want the government out of private business, smaller gov't, less entitlement programs and lower taxes. Regarding the banks, they had to step in because they already control/regulate the banks thru the Federal Reserve Bank and the FDIC. Although I use the term regulate loosely as it applies to the investment banks that caused most of this mess. A run on the banks would have been a real disaster. IMHO GM decalring bankruptcy without gov't intervention not so much. I purchased 8 GM cars/trucks in a row and was a loyal customer. Now German and most recernt purchase a Ford truck.

BTW do you remember when the Democrats were calling for a windfall tax on the record big oil profits???? How come no one is calling for a windfall tax on the record Federal reserve profits, which are more than big oil made????????

I will give the Dems credit for their managing of the tarp thus far. It is one thing they have mostly done right. Problem is they want to take the repaid funds and distribute them thru more entitlement programs under the guise of more stimulus....we'll never get it back.

[phragle]

This country's lack of realization that the market is not free, and the competition values their big industry and protects them is pathetic. I'm so ****ing sick of uninformed "Americans" rooting against the home team, while the competition they root for (and site for not needing this help or that) has been propped up by their gov'ts all along.

Go sell a foreign car in Japan, Korea, China and see how that goes as a foreign entity. Yet here we are dumb enough to root for them to win. They get it, we don't. Modern "war" is economic, and we are going down the ****ter. What happens when they decide they no longer want to keep buying our debt in USD, or at all? We have a constant flow out of money, combined with huge debt to everyone. Real power is earned by being a lender, not owing everyone.

So keep rooting for GM to fail to prove some idiotic point of yours, so that you lose your tax investment.

You can't claim " let capitalism decide" for the US when you are competing on a foreign stage that has no concept of a "fair fight". But I guess you guys think all this country needs is bankers and waiters, why make anything or actually create value.

Guess what man, the world aint fair. When americans are car shopping, they dont care if some japanese sumo wrestler beat you up and took your lunch money. You can plead your case with them, maybe they will smile and pat you on the head, but they are still just going to turn around and buy what ever the hell they want. Everybody loves the girls scouts but how many boxes of thin mints would you be buying if they tasted like styrofoam? Last time you bought girl scout cookies, were you really concerned about whether they were baked and boxed in the US??

Reality man...it sux, but you live in it.

[DollaBill]

"Reality man...it sux, but you live in it."

Well there's my new sig line LOL

[sledge]

How come no one is calling for a windfall tax on the record Federal reserve profits, which are more than big oil made???????

Umm...did you realize that first of all, the Federal Reserve is the only quasi-government agency that has always been profitable? And more importantly, all of the FRB profits already go to the US Treasury?

:cheers2:


Well I for one want the government out of private business, smaller gov't, less entitlement programs and lower taxes.

I'm with you & everyone else on this. But I think what happened the last couple years was extraordinary and required an extraordinary response. The key is that the gov't doesn't keep finding ways to permanently have their grimy hands in everything.

[phragle]

I'm with you & everyone else on this. But I think what happened the last couple years was extraordinary and required an extraordinary response. The key is that the gov't doesn't keep finding ways to permanently have their grimy hands in everything.


Lets look at it this way... you wanted coffee this morning...it was incredibly bitter.. you poured a ton of sugar into it to sweeten it up. That made it drinkable today, it will work tomorrow, but sooner or later your going to run out of sugar. Then the coffee will suck. Had you just kicked Juan Valdez's azz and told him to grow decent coffee, or bought coffee from the foldgers guy.. you would still have sugar in to bowl and good coffee in your cup. The industry needs desperatly to be remodeled. The govt. is throwing water ballons full of Big Lots chinese house paint at i and saying "look how shiny it is" as the foundation crumbles and the termites feast.

[BBB725]

Regarding the banks, they had to step in because they already control/regulate the banks thru the Federal Reserve Bank and the FDIC.

Not quite, the Federal Reserve Bank is a private bank not owned by the government.

[RLJ676]

I think people need to consider whether they're disappointed with General Motors the car company, versus the United Auto Workers union. Sure people can go on about GM execs being complacent in bargaining with UAW and not helping out the co in the long term. But I think people need to seperate the union from the company to a certain extent.

Anybody would be hard pressed to defend the union for its responsibility in contributing to the problems. The union's greed is second only to bankers' when it comes to hurting companies. But when you talk about "the auto industry" and "the big three" you're talking about a heck of a lot more than just the UAW.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the hypocrisy I read from some of you guys sometimes. In one thread you b!tch about Wall Street making tons of money. In the next you cry out for bondholders that got crushed; if they would've taken equity for their debt they wouldn't have lost as much, if anything. In one thread you b!tch about "Us-the taxpayer" bailing out what should be our pride and joy; in another you complain that all of our manufacturing is being moved offshore (how 'bout those Chinese Hummers?)

So what the phuck do you people want? Sacrifice a little, save what we have. Or just b!tch and moan until we've got nothing left. :USA:

FWIW, "we-the taxpayers" EARNED $45 BILLION on our "investments" through the TARP so far. The numbers coming out today indicate there's still approx $120Billion outstanding to be paid back. It's only been ONE YEAR and change since "we" gave/lent/invested this money. Chump change IMHO compared to the money "WE-THE TAXPAYER" have spent over the last 9 years to subsidize the rest of the world.

Well said. With this crowd greed is good, if you are mgmt.... the working guys....F U you greedy UAW scum, huh?

UAW's benefits were over the top, but the size of the retirees is the killer! Even with avg benefits it would have been a huge legacy cost nobody competing here now does.

40 years ago the Big 3 had 70% of the market and basically no competition. Therefore you need a big workforce. The US lets any and everyone come sell here, so now you have hundreds of name plates competing against you with different operating structures and costs and you still hold 45% of the market, but it is still not enough to support current labor and retirees, so now you break your contracts to screw the retirees? Or do you guys suppose GM should have used their time machine?

I won't even get into what they should have done to prepare for the market going from 17 mil vehicles a year to 10.... which "might" hurt revenue. Nobody had that in their plans.

[RLJ676]

Guess what man, the world aint fair. When americans are car shopping, they dont care if some japanese sumo wrestler beat you up and took your lunch money. You can plead your case with them, maybe they will smile and pat you on the head, but they are still just going to turn around and buy what ever the hell they want. Everybody loves the girls scouts but how many boxes of thin mints would you be buying if they tasted like styrofoam? Last time you bought girl scout cookies, were you really concerned about whether they were baked and boxed in the US??

Reality man...it sux, but you live in it.

Sure, don't worry about the US trade deficit and lack of power that goes with being in debt to everyone.......world's not fair but I prefer being a super power rather than China's *****. People may not consider this stuff, but people are stupid, that's the world we live in.

Other countries go out of their way to maintain, better yet gain economic power while attitudes like yours here give ours away.

Also, globalization is just the world going to equilibrium. As a top standard of living country, that means we HAVE TO go down as others come up. The jobs (industry) will continue to move to lower cost options (given free trade/globalization) until none are left. Basically we'll all be low cost producers.

[JupiterSunsation]

I'm looking at cars right now. If I get another SUV it will be another Expedition. If I get a car I will look at the Lincoln MKZ and a couple imports. GM isn't even on my radar.

MKZ is a POS.....just won one of the worst cars built awards.

[JupiterSunsation]

Not quite, the Federal Reserve Bank is a private bank not owned by the government.


yes and no.....

In particular, the United States Government does not own shares in the Federal Reserve System nor its component banks but does take all of its profits after salaries are paid to employees, dividends are paid to member banks, and surplus is put in a capital account. The government also exercises some control by appointing its highest level employees and setting their salaries.

According to the Federal Reserve, there are presently five different parts of the Federal Reserve System:[8]

The presidentially appointed Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, a governmental agency in Washington, D.C.
The Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), which oversees Open Market Operations, the principal tool of national monetary policy.
Twelve regional privately-owned Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation, which divide the nation into 12 districts, acting as fiscal agents for the U.S. Treasury, each with its own nine-member board of directors.
Numerous other private U.S. member banks, which subscribe to required amounts of non-transferable stock in their regional Federal Reserve Banks.

[DollaBill]

MKZ is a POS.....just won one of the worst cars built awards.

really? dam. looks good. oh well. sick deals on them right now

[Tommy Gun]

Umm...did you realize that first of all, the Federal Reserve is the only quasi-government agency that has always been profitable? And more importantly, all of the FRB profits already go to the US Treasury?

Yes I realize the Federal Reserve Bank is privately owned; however it operates under guidelines set forth by the US Treasury. And not all of the profits go to the US Treasury. The central bank announced Tuesday it logged a record profit of $52.1 billion. Of that total, a record $46.1 billion gets turned over to the Treasury Department. :cheers2:

[MarylandMark]

I'd rather them go out of business and melt their entire factory down to be sold for scrap metal to fund the retirees vs screwing them; they put in their dues regardless how cushy the contract may have been. I have a phuckin thief!

[JupiterSunsation]

really? dam. looks good. oh well. sick deals on them right now

Don't feel bad, my wife had a GL Mercedes SUV that was 70K new, 2 years/49K miles later couldn't get 35K on a trade. It also made the clunker list!

[Tommy Gun]

Hate to cut and paste but read this and tell me the UAW doesn't have anything to do with the problems with our carmakers, or other industires for that matter...

Behind Closed Doors, Unions Win, You Lose

Yesterday, President Barack Obama, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) and nine other lawmakers met face-to-face for seven hours to resolve differences between the House and Senate health care bills. At the same time these talks were going on, AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka, Service Employees International Union President Andy Stern and United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger met with other Obama administration officials in a separate room in the White House. This all comes after these same labor leaders met personally with Speaker Pelosi yesterday, and after they met face-to-face with President Obama in the White House on Monday. Despite then-candidate Barack Obama's explicit promises to the American people, absolutely none of these meetings were open to the public or televised on C-SPAN. In fact, Politico reports: "Those involved in the talks sought to keep details of their progress under wraps."

And just what deals were Big Labor, the leftist majorities in Congress and the Obama administration making behind closed doors? How to pay for President Obama's likely $1 trillion health care plan without raising taxes on one of the President's most loyal constituencies: labor unions. Specifically, Big Labor reportedly has struck a deal with health care negotiators to exempt union members from the 40% excise tax on high-priced health insurance premiums. By some estimates, the tax would hit one in four union members. Now Big Labor will get all of the big government health care spending they always wanted, but they will not have to pay for it.

And Obamacare's Big Labor handouts don't end there. The legislation also sets aside $5 billion to subsidize the costs of employer health benefits for early retirees. As Heritage fellow James Sherk notes, few nonunion employers, of course, pay pension and health benefits for workers to retire at 55. And then there's the small business exemption from the employer mandate for businesses with less than 50 employees. At first this applied to all small businesses, but after aggressive lobbying by Big Labor, non-unionized construction businesses were unexempted. Big Labor lobbyists explicitly admitted they wanted to use Obamacare's job-killing employer mandates as a competitive advantage to drive non-unionized firms out of business.

So where does the White House and Congress propose to regain the revenue lost from exempting unions from the health care excise tax? The people who fund job creation: investors. The Obama administration wants to apply the Medicare payroll tax not just to wages but to capital gains, and for the first time ever, to dividends and other forms of investment income. This tax will hit seniors the hardest since many of them live off their dividend and interest income, in addition to their pension and Social Security checks. But it also hurts us all since high taxes on capital gains, dividends, interest and business income increase the cost of capital, thus depressing investment at the very time the economy needs new investment to grow and create jobs.

Big Labor's high wages and inflexible work rules have already bankrupted our nation's once proud automobile industry. Across the country, their early retirement and exorbitant pensions are bankrupting states. The health insurance excise tax was once the signature health care spending cost cutter of Obama's entire health care plan. Now it has been gutted at the altar of Big Labor power. The big loser in all of these cases is you, the American taxpayer.

[sledge]

Yes I realize the Federal Reserve Bank is privately owned; however it operates under guidelines set forth by the US Treasury. And not all of the profits go to the US Treasury. The central bank announced Tuesday it logged a record profit of $52.1 billion. Of that total, a record $46.1 billion gets turned over to the Treasury Department. :cheers2:

"Privately owned" is a misnomer applied these days more as propaganda than what most understand as private ownership. Banks "subscribe" to "shares" because that's required as part of being a "nationally chartered" or "state member chartered" bank.


The Federal Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Federal Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Federal Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the system. The stock may not be sold or traded or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, limited to 6 percent per year.

The dividends paid to member banks are considered partial compensation for the lack of interest paid on member banks' required reserves held at the Federal Reserve. By law, banks in the United States must maintain fractional reserves, most of which are kept on account at the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve does not pay interest on these funds. (The Federal Reserve now has authority to pay interest on these funds granted by Congress in the EESA of 2008.)

So yeah, they pay "dividends" to member banks, they pay a little interest nowadays, and they keep a little slush fund. Point is, our little investments are profitable and cash flow positive...at least for now. :sifone:

[sledge]

Hate to cut and paste but read this and tell me the UAW doesn't have anything to do with the problems with our carmakers, or other industires for that matter...

Now labor unions....that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Not withstanding the fine UAW and other union members on this board, their union leadership are the termites of the labor pool. Nothing but greed and malice come from those people. I wonder how many union members realize just how much their "leadership" earn.

[MacGyver]

My next truck will be a Chevy :D

[VtSteve]

As many should have noticed by now, the auto industry isn't anywhere close to their marketing soundbites.

The Fusions are made in Mexico, along with the Milan and the MKZ. Interestingly enough, they all started with the Mazda 6 platform. Regardless, I like them, very good solid cars.

I've been in two different Malibus, one for a week. After being impressed with the nice looking lines, I was appalled with the interior design. There's only so many times I want to lift my leg over the narrow slot called a door opening. Nice ride, good handling, I'll take the Fusion's layout anyday. Just like a well-designed boat cockpit.

So are we patriotic by buying a Mexican-made car with a Japanese engine, a Canadian built car that loses money and losses come back to the US, or a good car made by real Americans in the United States by a company that actually makes money?

Maybe the better decision is to send the loser companies to Mexico for good, and they can take the losses.

[JupiterSunsation]

As many should have noticed by now, the auto industry isn't anywhere close to their marketing soundbites.

The Fusions are made in Mexico, along with the Milan and the MKZ. Interestingly enough, they all started with the Mazda 6 platform. Regardless, I like them, very good solid cars.

I've been in two different Malibus, one for a week. After being impressed with the nice looking lines, I was appalled with the interior design. There's only so many times I want to lift my leg over the narrow slot called a door opening. Nice ride, good handling, I'll take the Fusion's layout anyday. Just like a well-designed boat cockpit.

So are we patriotic by buying a Mexican-made car with a Japanese engine, a Canadian built car that loses money and losses come back to the US, or a good car made by real Americans in the United States by a company that actually makes money?

Maybe the better decision is to send the loser companies to Mexico for good, and they can take the losses.


I personally would pass on buying "Mexican" made but my mom bought a 09 Honda CRV (made in Mexico), all Dodge diesels are made there as well as a lot of the Chevy/GMC 1500 crew cabs and most of Volkswagens are made there (Some GTI's/R32's are still made in Wolfsburg/Slovakia).

[RLJ676]

As many should have noticed by now, the auto industry isn't anywhere close to their marketing soundbites.

The Fusions are made in Mexico, along with the Milan and the MKZ. Interestingly enough, they all started with the Mazda 6 platform. Regardless, I like them, very good solid cars.

I've been in two different Malibus, one for a week. After being impressed with the nice looking lines, I was appalled with the interior design. There's only so many times I want to lift my leg over the narrow slot called a door opening. Nice ride, good handling, I'll take the Fusion's layout anyday. Just like a well-designed boat cockpit.

So are we patriotic by buying a Mexican-made car with a Japanese engine, a Canadian built car that loses money and losses come back to the US, or a good car made by real Americans in the United States by a company that actually makes money?

Maybe the better decision is to send the loser companies to Mexico for good, and they can take the losses.

I'm sorry, but this is just a bad attempt at rationalizing a foreign car. GM produces like 16% of their vehicles in Mex/Canada (and sells a bunch there as well). Toyota imports 50% of their vehicles. Further, labor cost is 10% of the total cost of a car. When you know more about the supply chain you realize the numbers on the window claiming NA content are also worthless. An American car is one where overheads are here in the US, and the profits too (when they exist, which is 95 out of 100 years pretty much).

It's fairly insulting to see how the transplants have duped people into thinking it's better for this country to buy their cars. They really have to be having a laugh over there. Makes me sick to see toyanda commercials talking about "built in the US".

If you want to buy any car you want, go for it if you really like it better but the claim it's "American" or better for this country is absurd.

[Tommy Gun]

Porsche - There is no substitute.

[VtSteve]

I'm sorry, but this is just a bad attempt at rationalizing a foreign car. GM produces like 16% of their vehicles in Mex/Canada (and sells a bunch there as well). Toyota imports 50% of their vehicles. Further, labor cost is 10% of the total cost of a car. When you know more about the supply chain you realize the numbers on the window claiming NA content are also worthless. An American car is one where overheads are here in the US, and the profits too (when they exist, which is 95 out of 100 years pretty much).

It's fairly insulting to see how the transplants have duped people into thinking it's better for this country to buy their cars. They really have to be having a laugh over there. Makes me sick to see toyanda commercials talking about "built in the US".

If you want to buy any car you want, go for it if you really like it better but the claim it's "American" or better for this country is absurd.

The gap in Domestic Content has narrowed so much now, GM will be leading the charge against it. I think they'd be going far further if not for their predicament. I think the American made accounted for a lot of GM sales the last two decades, while shrinking. They have some good stuff finally, but we were told to be patriotic and buy the crap they made for two decades. That left a mark.

If not for foreign competition, goodness knows what kind of crap they'd be producing.

It's a numbers game. They have people crying that assembly workers don't amount for much of the end product, all the while complaining and whining about the cost of assembly is killing them.

Toyota makes many Corollas here, Matrix, Camry, Avalon, Tundra and Tacoma. I believe they still import the Prius, but not for long. Honda has a huge domestic record, both in manufacture and content. Back in 2006 or 2007, foreign-owned companies accounted for more than half of the parts suppliers themselves. GM was big on outsourcing parts, ask Delco.

[RLJ676]

The gap in Domestic Content has narrowed so much now, GM will be leading the charge against it. I think they'd be going far further if not for their predicament. I think the American made accounted for a lot of GM sales the last two decades, while shrinking. They have some good stuff finally, but we were told to be patriotic and buy the crap they made for two decades. That left a mark.

If not for foreign competition, goodness knows what kind of crap they'd be producing.

It's a numbers game. They have people crying that assembly workers don't amount for much of the end product, all the while complaining and whining about the cost of assembly is killing them.

Toyota makes many Corollas here, Matrix, Camry, Avalon, Tundra and Tacoma. I believe they still import the Prius, but not for long. Honda has a huge domestic record, both in manufacture and content. Back in 2006 or 2007, foreign-owned companies accounted for more than half of the parts suppliers themselves. GM was big on outsourcing parts, ask Delco.

I'll just preface this by saying I know "a little" about how the auto industry's supply chain works.;)

Agreed competition drives the industry, to the betterment of all consumers. Unfortunately, this competition also drove some big problems when they don't have legacy burdens, or a few thousand dollar currency advantage to pad profits or "dump" products....

Correct, Toyota makes many models here, but they import half of their vehicles still. Best yet, the cars they build here are supplied by Koritsu suppliers (Japanese suppliers they own a good part of). This means the suppliers profits all go back to Japan/the OEM. Best yet, the tier I may be located here but all of the actual value in the tier II/III's etc from all over the world. Makes the number on the window useless.

Not saying if you're saying GM leads in outsourcing or using domestic? GM has approximately around 70% US content, and well over that NAFTA content. GM's point is not to outsource parts, it is to get competitive pricing/quality wherever it comes from (can't afford to over pay on anything with labor/currency competition). GM does lead in American content overall (99.9% sure, can't recall where to get the stat for reference).

What's funny is, when dealing with Koreans, Germans...etc, they assume that the goal of Americans is to source American suppliers, because it most definitely is there's (whether a written rule or not). They all have nationalistic pride and want to support their country, they don't understand how someone couldn't. This is first hand experience.

[RLJ676]

Porsche - There is no substitute.

Porsche - there is no substitute in overcharging you for a mediocre performing antiquated ass heavy wreck in waiting.:USA:

[MacGyver]

Tesla Motors :USA:

[Ratickle]

It's fairly insulting to see how the transplants have duped people into thinking it's better for this country to buy their cars. They really have to be having a laugh over there. Makes me sick to see toyanda commercials talking about "built in the US".



Exactly...

[Wobble]

Tesla Motors :USA:

The Chassis is built by Lotus which is a British Manufacturer owned by a Malaysian company

[MacGyver]

The Chassis is built by Lotus which is a British Manufacturer owned by a Malaysian company

Oh well :rolleyes:

[Tommy Gun]

Porsche - there is no substitute in overcharging you for a mediocre performing antiquated ass heavy wreck in waiting.:USA:

Congratuations; ignorance is bliss. Porsche races and wins endurance races. Their racing record speaks for itself. Domestic vehicle service intervals (including oil changes) on a Cayenne for example are 20,000 miles. I have 92,000 miles on my 2006S; replaced a water pump; beyond that never been in service other than scheduled maintenance. AWD is a beast in the snow and it has a 6,000lb towing capacity; all while handling like a sports car.

24 hours Le Mans: By far the most successful marque in the history of the race is Porsche, who have taken 16 overall victories, including seven in a row from 1981 to 1987.

24 Hours Daytona: Porsche has the most overall victories of any manufacturer with 21, scored by various models, including the road based 911, 935 and 996. Porsche also won a record 11 consecutive races from 1977-1987 and won 18 out of 23 races from 1968-1991.

Why does this matter? "No one feels as committed to motor sport as Porsche. We build racing cars and are involved in racing and motor sport not just for image reasons, but because of the technical challenge it presents, so that we can learn from it for our series produced vehicles. Nearly every Porsche series model started life as a racing car."

[Tommy Gun]

Tesla Motors :USA:

The Roadster is an American car with a vehicle identification number common to all cars considered "American." But like all production cars, it has parts from around the world. The body panels come from French supplier Sotira. These are sent from France to Hethel, U.K., where Tesla contracts with Lotus to build the Roadster's unique chassis.[22][23] The Roadster shares roughly 6 percent of its components with the Lotus Elise; shared components include the windshield, air bags, some tires, some dashboard parts, and suspension components. The Roadster's single-speed gearbox is made in Detroit to Tesla's specifications by Auburn Hills, Mich.-based supplier Borg Warner. Brakes and airbags are made by Siemens in Germany, and some crash testing was conducted at Siemens as well.[24]

For Roadsters bound for customers in North America, the chassis is then sent to Menlo Park, California, for final assembly. For Roadsters bound for customers in Europe or elsewhere outside of North America, the chassis is sent to a facility near Hethel, U.K., for final assembly. At these final assembly locations, Tesla employees install the entire powertrain, which consists of the battery pack, power electronics module, gearbox and motor. Tesla also performs rigorous "pre-delivery inspection" on every car before customers take ownership.

[Ratickle]

24 hours Le Mans: By far the most successful marque in the history of the race is Porsche, who have taken 16 overall victories, including seven in a row from 1981 to 1987.



I do believe there has only been one Porsche winner in the last 15 years and three times in the last 25 years or so. They do need to upgrade their lineup some. And during the time it was not "Family" owned, it did go downhill.

[Tommy Gun]

I do believe there has only been one Porsche winner in the last 15 years and three times in the last 25 years or so. They do need to upgrade their lineup some. And during the time it was not "Family" owned, it did go downhill.

Porsche won in 1996,97 and 98; eight out of the last ten were Audi wins. Porsche Engineering Group has for many years offered consultancy services to various other car manufacturers, including Audi.

[RLJ676]

Congratuations; ignorance is bliss. Porsche races and wins endurance races. Their racing record speaks for itself. Domestic vehicle service intervals (including oil changes) on a Cayenne for example are 20,000 miles. I have 92,000 miles on my 2006S; replaced a water pump; beyond that never been in service other than scheduled maintenance. AWD is a beast in the snow and it has a 6,000lb towing capacity; all while handling like a sports car.

24 hours Le Mans: By far the most successful marque in the history of the race is Porsche, who have taken 16 overall victories, including seven in a row from 1981 to 1987.

24 Hours Daytona: Porsche has the most overall victories of any manufacturer with 21, scored by various models, including the road based 911, 935 and 996. Porsche also won a record 11 consecutive races from 1977-1987 and won 18 out of 23 races from 1968-1991.

Why does this matter? "No one feels as committed to motor sport as Porsche. We build racing cars and are involved in racing and motor sport not just for image reasons, but because of the technical challenge it presents, so that we can learn from it for our series produced vehicles. Nearly every Porsche series model started life as a racing car."

Wait, are we talking race cars?

I'm not, and I'd hope you're not by mentioning the CAYENNE. Seriously, that thing is the least Porsche vehicle out there. They make great cars, but charge a fortune. Their top car is outperformed by the Cayman, even with less power. Rear engine is not a good configuration.

Here's from the latest C&D Lightening Lap results. Same drivers in the same conditions.....better than random 'berg ring times.

911 Carrera S ($108K) 3:05.8
Cayman S ($76K) 3:05.8
M3 ($69K) 3:05.4
Vette Grand Sport ($57K) 2:58.8
Vette ZR1 ($119) 2:51.8

Yeah, you're right, Porsche isn't ripping you off for their alleged sports cars.:eek:

You're driving a Cayenne though.....so I guess it is pretty sporty for taking kids to soccer, but I'd take an M5 over it.

[Tommy Gun]

Wait, are we talking race cars?

I'm not, and I'd hope you're not by mentioning the CAYENNE. Seriously, that thing is the least Porsche vehicle out there. They make great cars, but charge a fortune. Their top car is outperformed by the Cayman, even with less power. Rear engine is not a good configuration.

Here's from the latest C&D Lightening Lap results. Same drivers in the same conditions.....better than random 'berg ring times.

911 Carrera S ($108K) 3:05.8
Cayman S ($76K) 3:05.8
M3 ($69K) 3:05.4
Vette Grand Sport ($57K) 2:58.8
Vette ZR1 ($119) 2:51.8

Yeah, you're right, Porsche isn't ripping you off for their alleged sports cars.:eek:

You're driving a Cayenne though.....so I guess it is pretty sporty for taking kids to soccer, but I'd take an M5 over it.

Since I haven't seen the article I don't know what track it was run on but typically those with long straightaways will benefit the larger HP cars. For example you are comparing the GS Vette 436 HP and the ZR1 Vette 620HP against a Cayman S w/320HP and a Carrera S w/385 HP. Perhaps if they'd tested the GT w/612HP the results might be a bit different.

My point regarding Porsche was that they have an endurance racing heritage and are not as exotic or maintnenance intensive as one might be lead to believe; Regarding the Cayenne The Times journalist Andrew Frankel says on one level, it is the world's best 4x4...Despite the controversy faced by critics, the Cayenne has been a success. As of August 2009, well over 250,000 Cayennes have been built.

Then again that Chevy equinox sure is a winner:eek:

[RLJ676]

Since I haven't seen the article I don't know what track it was run on but typically those with long straightaways will benefit the larger HP cars. For example you are comparing the GS Vette 436 HP and the ZR1 Vette 620HP against a Cayman S w/320HP and a Carrera S w/385 HP. Perhaps if they'd tested the GT w/612HP the results might be a bit different.

My point regarding Porsche was that they have an endurance racing heritage and are not as exotic or maintnenance intensive as one might be lead to believe; Regarding the Cayenne The Times journalist Andrew Frankel says on one level, it is the world's best 4x4...Despite the controversy faced by critics, the Cayenne has been a success. As of August 2009, well over 250,000 Cayennes have been built.

Then again that Chevy equinox sure is a winner:eek:

It's ran at VIR. As you saw the lower powered Cayman ran the exact same as the more powerful 911, so it's not a straights issue. Rear engine makes little sense.

How much is that GT? It still won't beat the ZR1. My point was Porsche's are overpriced, which you are helping by pointing out how much less power you get for more money. Vette maintenance won't exactly break the bank, particularly compared to these cars. Porsche makes great cars, just overpriced and in the case of the 911, overhyped.

The Cayenne has sold to lots of wealthy image conscious people because of the brand. It is a very capable vehicle, I just don't think that's why it's been a success. Works for Porsche as it funds all the other projects. The Panamera I'm sure is due to it, and I like that car.

So I stand by my first point, Porsche's are overpriced and the "real Porsche" (911) is of poor layout and likely to put you ass first quicker than any car I can think, other than an overpowered Shelby replica maybe. The new ones with lots of electronic nannies does well, but those old ones.....

Equinox is a darn nice little CUV. Wish we could build more, as they're flying off the lots.

[sledge]

likely to put you ass first quicker than any car I can think

Until you've backed one into the gravel pit yourself, that's just regurgitating what critics have written. And lemme tell you, I've backed in my share of race cars. :driving: You just can't trail the pre-996 chassis into corners. C4-earlier chassis aren't going to appreciate it either. The 996 got new geometry to help with corner entry so the problem isn't as prevalent. But each car is different and demands a different style to push it to the limits. What hurts the 911 these days is the weight it's put on.

Bring EUR/USD back to parity and the 911 may be very price competitive.

[JupiterSunsation]

Until you've backed one into the gravel pit yourself, that's just regurgitating what critics have written. And lemme tell you, I've backed in my share of race cars. :driving: You just can't trail the pre-996 chassis into corners. C4-earlier chassis aren't going to appreciate it either. The 996 got new geometry to help with corner entry so the problem isn't as prevalent. But each car is different and demands a different style to push it to the limits. What hurts the 911 these days is the weight it's put on.

Bring EUR/USD back to parity and the 911 may be very price competitive.

trailing throttle oversteer at its best! :D

[JupiterSunsation]

RJ

There are plenty of "Vettes" that are in salvage yards nationwide when "Rocco" had the 4 hundred truurty horsepowa get away from him........

GM makes nice Cadillacs, great trucks, decent "full size" SUV's and great bang for the buck Corvettes......but go look at a 30 year old 911 and compare it to a 30 year old "Vette" and you will understand why Porsche charges a few bucks more......

[JupiterSunsation]

Wait, are we talking race cars?

I'm not, and I'd hope you're not by mentioning the CAYENNE. Seriously, that thing is the least Porsche vehicle out there. They make great cars, but charge a fortune. Their top car is outperformed by the Cayman, even with less power. Rear engine is not a good configuration.

Here's from the latest C&D Lightening Lap results. Same drivers in the same conditions.....better than random 'berg ring times.

911 Carrera S ($108K) 3:05.8
Cayman S ($76K) 3:05.8
M3 ($69K) 3:05.4
Vette Grand Sport ($57K) 2:58.8
Vette ZR1 ($119) 2:51.8

Yeah, you're right, Porsche isn't ripping you off for their alleged sports cars.:eek:

You're driving a Cayenne though.....so I guess it is pretty sporty for taking kids to soccer, but I'd take an M5 over it.

Notice they aren't running a base Corvette in those tests either.....where is the 911 GT2, GT3 or Twin Turbo if this is a run the best of the best grouping.

[RLJ676]

Notice they aren't running a base Corvette in those tests either.....where is the 911 GT2, GT3 or Twin Turbo if this is a run the best of the best grouping.

Sure, they'll be closer, but TWICE the cost.

My point is they're overpriced, not bad cars. I like the Cayman a lot, but it's expensive. The Euro doesn't help, but where they really kill you is the options. I don't think if the Euro devalued they'd charge less. People are willing to pay the big bucks, but they don't sell a lot and don't need to at their margins.

I'd take an M3 over these Porsches too. Why not have a back seat for similar/better performance and the same or less money?

[RLJ676]

RJ

There are plenty of "Vettes" that are in salvage yards nationwide when "Rocco" had the 4 hundred truurty horsepowa get away from him........

GM makes nice Cadillacs, great trucks, decent "full size" SUV's and great bang for the buck Corvettes......but go look at a 30 year old 911 and compare it to a 30 year old "Vette" and you will understand why Porsche charges a few bucks more......

Check a 40+ year old vette.:sifone:

[Tommy Gun]

[QUOTE=RLJ676;416558]It's ran at VIR. As you saw the lower powered Cayman ran the exact same as the more powerful 911, so it's not a straights issue. Rear engine makes little sense.

How much is that GT? It still won't beat the ZR1.

Really, how do you know this? No doubt the ZR1 is impressive and perhaps it would win but comparitively the numbers are vey close. The 620 HP ZR1 is 5.4 lbs/HP; 638 HP is 5.5 lbs/HP whereas the GT is 5.02lbs/HP. The top speeds are virtually identical so I think it would be interesting to run them side by side.

[I]My point was Porsche's are overpriced, which you are helping by pointing out how much less power you get for more money.

No doubt the Corvette is a good value for the money, but I never have been impressed due to the poor quality of the fit and finish. Perhaps the newer ones are better.

Vette maintenance won't exactly break the bank, particularly compared to these cars.

Really, what is your point of comparision on the maintenance? My 911 maint interval is 15k miles; the Cayenne is 20k miles...what is a ZR1?

Porsche makes great cars, just overpriced and in the case of the 911, overhyped.

Your certainley entitled to your opinion but I think its racing heritage proves otherwise.

The Cayenne has sold to lots of wealthy image conscious people because of the brand.

Unlike say a Cadillac Escalade?

So I stand by my first point, Porsche's are overpriced and the "real Porsche" (911) is of poor layout and likely to put you ass first quicker than any car I can think, other than an overpowered Shelby replica maybe. The new ones with lots of electronic nannies does well, but those old ones.....

So when was the last time you actually drove one?

Equinox is a darn nice little CUV. Wish we could build more, as they're flying off the lots.

Congrats...the 2010's are getting good reviews however the older models...not so good.

[RLJ676]

I get it now....you like paying for racing heritage rather than current performance. Should have been obvious from your Cig!:sifone: (joking, as your boat is the dream boat:cheers2:)

I believe the GT and ZR1 have both ran the Nurbergring, and the ZR1 faster. Doesn't mean much though on different days and different drivers. I certainly would love to drive either or see them go flat out to see. Now combine cost and livability (if you are doing more than track toy)....

Again, I like Porsche. Great cars but I don't like a rear engine design and you can get more for your money in other places (not just a vette). Again, I'm talking sports cars, not race cars. A flat out track ready car is different than a sports car for the street. I'm not huge on it and could be wrong, but haven't vette's recently dominated the AMLS, etc? Are they in a different class than the 911?

Last time I drove one was my uncle's 07 911 about 3 years ago. Didn't get to get on it in any curves to get a handling impression. Quick car....but the sound isn't right. I'm just a V8 guy I guess.

I thought everyone knew Escalade's only sold because of rappers.:sifone:

[JupiterSunsation]

RLJ........that Caddy CTS with the Vette motor is ugly but really fast!

The M3's have gotten WAY WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. I have had two and my last one was an 02 convertible (333 HP, 57K new). Same car now is a V8/400+ HP and 75K....

[RLJ676]

RLJ........that Caddy CTS with the Vette motor is ugly but really fast!

The M3's have gotten WAY WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. I have had two and my last one was an 02 convertible (333 HP, 57K new). Same car now is a V8/400+ HP and 75K....

I have tried not to be too GM and bring that one up.....but yeah. Only I don't find it at all ugly.....:willy_nilly:

I'm headed over to watch the games with some buddies, one just bought a CTS-V, and he owes letting me take it for a quick spin.:driving:

I think the M3's start in the 50's or low 60's, but options get real pricey real fast. They are great cars though.

[Tommy Gun]

From C&D's review of the ZR1...

The ZR1’s steering still doesn’t have the leanness or data-bit flow of a Porsche 911’s, but placing and holding the nose where it’s needed is easier and takes less guesswork and prayer.

Different strokes for different folks...that's why there are so many cars to choose from. Regardless, I'm not good enough to drive those cars at that level and personally think real high end cars to be a waste because unless you get on a track you can't legally drive them like they want to be driven. I'm real content with my 1997 911S, not the fastest but a blast to drive; and it hasn't lost much of it's value over the years and is a classic; the last of the 993 air cooled cars.

That is why I think performance boats are more fun...you can run at speed without the added worry of LE most of the time.

[phragle]

Check a 40+ year old vette.:sifone:

Like the one in the garage, wth matching numbers, not to mention the engine, trans and rear end have NEVER been opened up or gone into......

[MarylandMark]

that Caddy CTS with the Vette motor is ugly but really fast!

:ack2: I think it is bad ass! :)

[Tommy Gun]

Lip-Ship has one...its pretty cool; and very fast.

[JupiterSunsation]

From C&D's review of the ZR1...

The ZR1’s steering still doesn’t have the leanness or data-bit flow of a Porsche 911’s, but placing and holding the nose where it’s needed is easier and takes less guesswork and prayer.

Different strokes for different folks...that's why there are so many cars to choose from. Regardless, I'm not good enough to drive those cars at that level and personally think real high end cars to be a waste because unless you get on a track you can't legally drive them like they want to be driven. I'm real content with my 1997 911S, not the fastest but a blast to drive; and it hasn't lost much of it's value over the years and is a classic; the last of the 993 air cooled cars.

That is why I think performance boats are more fun...you can run at speed without the added worry of LE most of the time.

But nobody knew those 993 S/ Turbos were going to hold their value so well.... The 2001-2004 Turbos are very fast/reliable but don't seem to hodl their value anywhere near as well as the previous generation 911's.

The boats are more fun especially when the lawmen couldn't catch you if they wanted to!

[rainmn]

I'm real content with my 1997 911S, not the fastest but a blast to drive; and it hasn't lost much of it's value over the years and is a classic; the last of the 993 air cooled cars.

100% agree. I sold my '95 993 cab a few years ago, but I plan on replacing it with a 993 coupe soon. My favorite series for sure.

[RLJ676]

From C&D's review of the ZR1...

The ZR1’s steering still doesn’t have the leanness or data-bit flow of a Porsche 911’s, but placing and holding the nose where it’s needed is easier and takes less guesswork and prayer.

Different strokes for different folks...that's why there are so many cars to choose from. Regardless, I'm not good enough to drive those cars at that level and personally think real high end cars to be a waste because unless you get on a track you can't legally drive them like they want to be driven. I'm real content with my 1997 911S, not the fastest but a blast to drive; and it hasn't lost much of it's value over the years and is a classic; the last of the 993 air cooled cars.

That is why I think performance boats are more fun...you can run at speed without the added worry of LE most of the time.

Exactly!:cheers2: Sure would suck if there wasn't all the options to argue about on the internet.

Unfortunately I can't afford any real speed on the water (at least in a boat size I'd want to run on St Clair), so I'll take my cheap speed in the vette.

[Five Cent Worth]

Hey, the 48 has been winning a lot lately in a Chevy... :willy_nilly:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Tommy Gun]

Hey, the 48 has been winning a lot lately in a Chevy... :willy_nilly:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

NASCAR; Toyota: :lurk5:

[MacGyver]

Chevy in NASCAR's Sprint Cup Series, 2009 season: 1st, 2nd and 3rd :driving:

[BBB725]

Chevy in NASCAR's Sprint Cup Series, 2009 season: 1st, 2nd and 3rd :driving:

The only thing factory in any of the cars is the emblem

[MacGyver]

The only thing factory in any of the cars is the emblem

Shhhhhhhh.......Don't tell anyone :sifone: