Ar-15

[Doo-er]

Looking at a Bushmaster AR-15 E2S, the guy wants $1000.00 and that he paid more than that. My problem is that when I look them up online I can get a new one for $799.00.

I was thinking of offering him $500.00 and no more. What are you thoughts?

[Wobble]

Looking at a Bushmaster AR-15 E2S, the guy wants $1000.00 and that he paid more than that. My problem is that when I look them up online I can get a new one for $799.00.

I was thinking of offering him $500.00 and no more. What are you thoughts?

I'd buy the new one from a reputable seller

[sellsman11]

Looking at a Bushmaster AR-15 E2S, the guy wants $1000.00 and that he paid more than that. My problem is that when I look them up online I can get a new one for $799.00.

I was thinking of offering him $500.00 and no more. What are you thoughts?

Chris should be here any minute. He can give you the skinny.

[Chris]

If he were willing to sell it to you for $500, I'd have to ask why. Firearms aren't like used cars. They really don't depreciate. He could probably get $800 easily and definitely could sell it to a dealer for $700 or so. What he has with is affects price as well. Cases, optics, etc can add alot in value.

You may see it listed for that lowball price, but actually getting one could be a whole different story. The reputable one's are selling for just shy of $900. and remember with mailorder you have shipping and FFL transfer. If you don't have someone to do that for you, you may have trouble. More and more dealers are shying away from doing those transfers.

[Ted]

I have been looking into the idea of building one lately. There is only one controlled part on the gun and the rest can be acquired over the internet. And the idea of putting together a gun somewhat customized the way I want it is attractive to me. With the new year I think I will get started on that little project. :)

[Doo-er]

If he were willing to sell it to you for $500, I'd have to ask why. Firearms aren't like used cars. They really don't depreciate. He could probably get $800 easily and definitely could sell it to a dealer for $700 or so. What he has with is affects price as well. Cases, optics, etc can add alot in value.

You may see it listed for that lowball price, but actually getting one could be a whole different story. The reputable one's are selling for just shy of $900. and remember with mailorder you have shipping and FFL transfer. If you don't have someone to do that for you, you may have trouble. More and more dealers are shying away from doing those transfers.

It is just the gun, no case, optics ect. The deal is he was renting a house from a friend and owes him money ($1000.00) so he is offering the gun to my friend to clear up the debt. Friend doesn't want the gun so he called me. Renter is hurting for cash so I'm going to try to get a good deal, may work out may not?

thanks for the info

[Chris]

Call your local police department and run the serial number.

[insanity]

I have been looking into the idea of building one lately. There is only one controlled part on the gun and the rest can be acquired over the internet. And the idea of putting together a gun somewhat customized the way I want it is attractive to me. With the new year I think I will get started on that little project. :)

Brownells has been selling the Spikes lowers for 80-90 bucks, but you have to deal with the FFL thing. If you can find a local place to get a decent lower so you don't have to deal with FFL you are gtg. There is a local place to me that does alot of AR work/sales called ADCO Firearms, has a good website too, http://www.adcofirearms.com. I plan on having them take a little weight off my 308 soon.

[Tony]

Browse the equipment exchange in the ar-15.com forums. Theres always dealers and private sellers with good deals on any and every part you would ever need to build an AR platform. If your looking into anything Rock River call Pete at Legal Transfers. His prices and his service are as good as it gets.

[gerritm]

Prices on Ar's have gone down. I think the craziness of Obama gun control buyers has subsided a bit. I bought my DPMS Panther Ar-15 about a year ago and paid close to a grand for it. They are now down to $800 at the gun shows. Supply and demand. The supply is up right now. We go to the gun shows and every dealer is loaded with black rifles. You couldn't buy a 308/7.62 six months ago and they were all over the show. Like Chris said they don't depreciate, the problem is the over priced ones. Ammo is back, also. Bushmaster's are not a special or high end AR. If the gun is in excellent condidtion it might be worth $800 or so.

[hotjava66]

yes, a grand is a bit high for it, i would say 650-700 tops if its in good shape and doesnt have any accessories. the market has softened up a bit, a couple days before the election i ordered a rock river in 458socom and didnt get it until july. now you can get just about anything, i just picked up an ar-10t, havent been able to get them for quite a while, but of course i wanted to get rid of another gun and the market is off now. my gun guy took my bushmaster varmint special on trade for 800.00, in like new condition, so he will prob sell it for 900.00 and they are 1150 new. as far as building one, i always wanted to but if you want top notch it was about a wash with a good builder, it would be fun though.

[RLJ676]

I've been doing a ton of research on AR's recently as I just started getting the stuff to build my own.

You can build a more quality gun for around $800, or a similar to BM one for around $600.

If you're just plinking and want a gun for cheap, try this. http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=2108721&cat=161&

However, I'd recommend building one, and ar15.com has a ton of info. I am sure he can sell that gun for that money to someone, but that doesn't mean it's a "good deal", a lot of people buy an AR without doing a lot of research.

[RedDog382]

I have also been doing a little research on these myself. A new (in the box) Colt AR-15 6920 Law Enforcement model from a local gun store here in Vegas is currently going around $1300 plus tax and $25 FFL background check/transfer.

Ballistics of the .223 aren't that impressive and energy really drops off after 200-300 yards.

Thinking an Armalite AR-10 in .308 (7.62) might be a better investment ...(?)

[Tony]

If your considering a .308 the DPMS LR308 is hard to beat. The Armalite is much like Bushmaster, your paying for a name.

[RLJ676]

I have also been doing a little research on these myself. A new (in the box) Colt AR-15 6920 Law Enforcement model from a local gun store here in Vegas is currently going around $1300 plus tax and $25 FFL background check/transfer.

Ballistics of the .223 aren't that impressive and energy really drops off after 200-300 yards.

Thinking an Armalite AR-10 in .308 (7.62) might be a better investment ...(?)

I believe if you shop around you can grab Colt's for below 1200, which is a great deal on "the AR".

If you're hunting anything bigger than varmint regularly with the rifle, an AR10 makes sense, but if you are just target shooting the .223 is way cheaper. Seems though that once you have one you just keep buying and building more so you could just get both....BRD (black rifle disease).

[tcuda499]

I've got the disease!!!! 4 .223's and one play one in 9mm. I really want an AR10 but its hard(exspensive)to get good 7.62.

[Tony]

Federal Gold Medal Match is about as good as it gets in factory ammo for theese, it will shoot sub MOA in a stock LR308. You will be supprised by the increased accuracy that handloads tailored to your specific rifle will have over factory ammo.

[tcuda499]

Federal Gold Medal Match is about as good as it gets in factory ammo for theese, it will shoot sub MOA in a stock LR308. You will be supprised by the increased accuracy that handloads tailored to your specific rifle will have over factory ammo.

not into reloading yet but have most of the stuff I will need.......except time

[Von Bongo]

I have also been doing a little research on these myself. A new (in the box) Colt AR-15 6920 Law Enforcement model from a local gun store here in Vegas is currently going around $1300 plus tax and $25 FFL background check/transfer.

(?)

For $1300 you can get an 6940 colt NIB monolithic rail. 6920s have been going for ~$1000 pretty regularly NIB.

Check AR15.com as has been said and also www.sturmgewehr.com. Most FFLs will transfer for about $30.

AR's are back to or slightly below Pre obama prices. If you are looking for an AR I'd look at Colt, LMT, Stag and Rock river. If you want to put one together the lowers are all about the same and Bravo Company USA makes great uppers. Rock River was selling the complete kit minus the lower for like $600 a while back so for less that $700 you could have a darn fine black rifle.

Read a lot on AR15 and you will pick up pretty quick whats good and whats average.

Great LMT
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=224423

Colts at Clydes. Great deal in the 6940
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=224385

RRA kit
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=199

[Trim'd Up]

I have a DPMS LR-243L. It is basically a lighter AR-10 but in 243 Win. I only have about 60 rounds through it so far but I am really impressed. I haven't had a single function issue and it shoots one ragged hole at 200yds. I have a 223 as well and it is great for target but it just doesen't have the ass behind it for consistent bang-flops on even coyote sized animals. It definitely kills them just not with the authority of a 22-250 or 243 at 300+ yards. Something else to consider is a an AR-15 in one of the wssm calibers if you want more punch but lighter weight. D-tech or olympic arms both make them but ammo is a little pricey and harder to find.

For just a cheap plinker check out the CMMG bargain bin rifles. I have a couple of buddies with them and they shoot damn good especially for under 600 bucks.
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=2106045&cat=161&PHPSESSID=1d8034e9a4813502b5d97187de6efc81

[Chris]

I've got the disease!!!! 4 .223's and one play one in 9mm. I really want an AR10 but its hard(exspensive)to get good 7.62.

You should take a look at the ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel vs. the 7.62.

[Chris]

I've got the disease!!!! 4 .223's and one play one in 9mm. I really want an AR10 but its hard(exspensive)to get good 7.62.

You should take a look at the ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel vs. the 7.62. And it works in the AR-15 architecture.

[tcuda499]

You should take a look at the ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel vs. the 7.62. And it works in the AR-15 architecture.

Didn't know that......I'll have to look into it. what would have to be changed out besides the barrel?

[Trim'd Up]

Didn't know that......I'll have to look into it. what would have to be changed out besides the barrel?

You can buy them complete from just about everybody. No need to change anything unless you already have an AR.

[Chris]

barrel, magazine and bolt. I believe you can reuse the carrier.

The Grendel shoots flatter than the 7.62 and at 600 yards carries more energy. It's faster so your BD comps are alot easier to calculate. The downside is that brass is expensive. The caliber really favors the handloader, but the results are amazing.

[Chris]

Keep this in mind- when you buy an off-the-shelf rifle, it's built to work with all the ammo out there. If you build your own, you can specify alot of different things that will dramatically improve accuracy. The biggest is chamber reaming. Not only can you have a higher-tolerance reamer used, you can get a shorter throat cut. That will allow you to seat your bullets to match your throat depth. Factory chanber are cut deep and the bullet is forced to jump the gap to the throat and the beginning of the rifled bore. With the shorter throat, you can set bullet seating to the throat- so when chambered, the ogive of the bullet is touching the throat. Big increase in accuracy.

The downside- on an autoloading rifle, you may get the occasional failure-to-feed. But on a properly tuned, well cared-for rifle, it would be rare.

[ZBODaytona]

barrel, magazine and bolt. I believe you can reuse the carrier.

The Grendel shoots flatter than the 7.62 and at 600 yards carries more energy. It's faster so your BD comps are alot easier to calculate. The downside is that brass is expensive. The caliber really favors the handloader, but the results are amazing.

So wouldn't you just buy a complete upper and then have both the 223 and the 6.5

My buddy is in love with the AR-15. He has complete uppers for his guns so in a minute he can go from 22, 9mm, 223. He mentioned something about a 260 or 270 one as well. Now I am wondering if it is the 6.5 you speak about. He just changes uppers, has different mags for the different ammos and goes on about shooting. Seems like a good thing to me. He likes Spikes tatical, but of course they are only a few miles from us.

[Chris]

So wouldn't you just buy a complete upper and then have both the 223 and the 6.5

.

Depends on your way of thinking. I personally wouldn't. The cost of a lower, trigger group and a stock wouldn't keep me from owning another rifle. So, me- I'd have both :)

[waterboy222]

For just a cheap plinker check out the CMMG bargain bin rifles. I have a couple of buddies with them and they shoot damn good especially for under 600 bucks.
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=2106045&cat=161&PHPSESSID=1d8034e9a4813502b5d97187de6efc81



Thats a good deal.. Im thinkin about getting one for my gf to use at the indoor range, ideal gun for that!

[publius]

Get a Colt if you can afford it, they are very well made and will absolutely not decrease, but increase in value. .223 ballistics are very good for what it is intended for, killing people and varmints. 200-300 yds. is when almost all rounds really start to bleed off velocity. The 6.5 grendel is a .260, or actually, a .264 and is a hell of a cartridge. I personally, wouldn't go above 6-700 for a used Bushmaster.

[Tommy Gun]

I don't know much about the technical aspects of the different calibers, but I do know that my .270 Browining A-Bolt is very accurate at range. It makes sense that if a 6.5 = .264 it should also be very accurate.

[Chris]

There are alot of components that go into how a cartridge performs ballistically. Case design can have a huge effect on how the cartridge performs. In the case of the Grendel, the case diameter and shoulder design balances very well with the burn charachteristics of a couple popular rifle powders.

Another aspect is the performance of the projectile. Some of the factors governing performance are bullet weight, velocity and coefficient of drag. Moving the projectile faster means it drops less in a given distance- flat trajectory. A bullet drops at the same speed whether dropped from your hand or propelled to 4,000 feet per second. It's just that at 4Kfps it doesn't have time to drop as much. A low coefficient of drag means that the drag of the bullet is lessened, allowing it to retain more velocity. And velocity is energy. Mass is also energy. So when you put all this together, the 223 moves very swiftly and has a low coefficient of drag, but since it's only 55 grains in weight, its energy at distance is much less. If you go to the 7.62, the CD is up substantially and speed is down, but energy remains high with a typical bullet weight of 168gr. The 6.5 moves almost as fast as the 223 and at 123gr has substantially more weight. So you get a good, flat trajectory and good energy at long distances.

Another aspect of CD and energy is deflection. Unless you're at an indoor range, you're dealing with wind and thermals. And those two can greatly affect accuracy. In that respect, the 6.5 is a solid performer. While CD is important, bullet profile is the big one here. Big, fat bullets are easy to blow around. So are light one's. The 6.5 is a good balance.

I've been playing with my own 6.5 for a couple years. It's base is the Remington 300 Short Action Ultra Mag (SAUM). I necked the case down to 6.5mm and messed with the shoulder a little bit. I chose this base as I wanted to try it in an autoloading rifle and the AR-10 platform would accommodate the cartridge length. So far I've been astonished with the performance. The ballistics absolutely blow the 7.62 away.

[ZBODaytona]

You guys are all saying colt. I have been told that the newer colts aren't what they used to be, and now your really paying for the name. Armalite I hear a good ones. They says bushmasters are a good bang for the buck. Though I'd probably go with the spike's tatical as they are local for me.

[Tommy Gun]

You guys are all saying colt. I have been told that the newer colts aren't what they used to be, and now your really paying for the name. Armalite I hear a good ones. They says bushmasters are a good bang for the buck. Though I'd probably go with the spike's tatical as they are local for me.

Take a look at Rock River.

[Chris]

A locally-built gun may be a flawless piece, but unless you're going to keep it forever, it could be a tough sell. A pro-built gun doesn't present that problem.

My experience has been that DPMS provides the best balance of cost, value and performance. You can also easily resell it. RRA also builds a very high-quality weapon. Armalite as well.

[ar15meister]

buy a Colt.....

I have a couple of AR's...no Colt though... we cant get new Colts in Canada and the used ones are stupid money.

[Von Bongo]

A locally-built gun may be a flawless piece, but unless you're going to keep it forever, it could be a tough sell. A pro-built gun doesn't present that problem

+1 unless its a hesse, olympic or vulcan.

[Chris]

+1 unless its a hesse, olympic or vulcan.

Yeah- I suppose that's what I meant about "Pro-built"

Hesse. That's funny. :biggrinjester:

[RedDog382]

You should take a look at the ballistics of the 6.5 Grendel vs. the 7.62. And it works in the AR-15 architecture.

Chris,

Does that mean it would be reasonable to start with a Colt AR-15 LE and eventually modify it to handle the 6.5 Grendel round? Or would the Armalite AR-10 be a better place to start?

[Tony]

RD, one easy way to do it. http://www.alexanderarms.com/siteshopper.htm?cat=15&item=32


More on the Grendel: http://www.65grendel.com/

[Chris]

Chris,

Does that mean it would be reasonable to start with a Colt AR-15 LE and eventually modify it to handle the 6.5 Grendel round? Or would the Armalite AR-10 be a better place to start?

The beauty of the Grendel is that it works with off the shelf parts in the AR15 architecture. Parts are way more plentiful and alot less expensive.

In the AR-10, you can move to something really extreme, like the 6.5 based 300 I'm playing with.

The issue is overall cartridge length. The length of the Grendel makes it workable in the 15-length magazines and with the 15 bolt stroke length.

If you build one, get a competent gunsmith to work you up a throat depth based on the projectile you'll use. I like the 123gr Scenar. It has a fairly plump ogive that allows you not so deep throating and still chambers well, but will give you tight bullet/bore spacing and better accuracy.

[tcuda499]

+1 unless its a hesse, olympic or vulcan.

whats that mean? Hesse,Olympic,Vulcan are good or bad?

[RLJ676]

whats that mean? Hesse,Olympic,Vulcan are good or bad?

They are junk. Hesse and Vulcan are the same company, and have a few other names (blackthorne may be one). These are basically the only brands that should absolutely be avoided all together.

I think most people here would be interested in building there own, assuming we're all mechanical, loud, expensive toy type people.:willy_nilly: With a build you can pick exactly what you want, and go top shelf on important parts (barrel and BCG) and then budget wherever you want on other parts. You also save 11% excise tax that is on all complete rifles. "Building" can be as easy as pinning together a complete upper and complete lower to buying every single piece separately and assembling.

I'm going to end up with a pretty top shelf built gun for around 900 by just shopping for some great deals on my parts.

If you want top of the line parts for reasonable prices, nothing can beat Bravo Company Mfg. They do every single mil-spec requirement same as Colt, only with a lot more options in uppers and for less money. All the gun forums I have been reading extensively have nothing but praise for them. (my 16 midlength BCM upper just arrived today:USA:).

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

Spike's is a very big name, and popular. Resale online with gun people will be fine, but who plans on selling a gun anyways? (I did once and regret it).

[Von Bongo]

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/
.

I agree have purchased many things from them and all top notch.

While I still hold Colt above the rest because of their testing of individual parts I'd own any bravo company upper or lower and not think twice about it.

If I were to buy another AR today in 5.56 it would probably be the LMT qcb MRP piston carbine. I think they have the best MRP design and the piston rifes are cleaner running than the DI guns although all mine are DI. Just make sure to run the DI dripping wet with lube.

[RLJ676]

I agree have purchased many things from them and all top notch.

While I still hold Colt above the rest because of their testing of individual parts I'd own any bravo company upper or lower and not think twice about it.

If I were to buy another AR today in 5.56 it would probably be the LMT qcb MRP piston carbine. I think they have the best MRP design and the piston rifes are cleaner running than the DI guns although all mine are DI. Just make sure to run the DI dripping wet with lube.

BCM does not batch test either, they individually test everything. I haven't found anything different between the two, other than good CS with BCM and more name recognition with Colt. Can't go wrong with either from what I can tell.

I haven't read anything that makes me think a piston upper is worth the cost (those LMT uppers are like over a grand right?). Seems for any advantage there's some disadvantage. I'm just building my first though.....so I could see one sneaking in some day.

[Von Bongo]

I haven't read anything that makes me think a piston upper is worth the cost (those LMT uppers are like over a grand right?). Seems for any advantage there's some disadvantage. I'm just building my first though.....so I could see one sneaking in some day.

Yes they are going for about $1K.

Even a Bravo Company 16" M4 upper with DD rail installed and a BCM bolt group is $924 right now on their website. A LMT piston uppper is monolithic rail including the BCG so its about a wash at $1K.

[Chris]

Adams Arms offers an external gas piston system for the AR. I saw a number of $260.

The gas-piston systems are a novelty. But it does give you something else to play with.

[Trim'd Up]

Ruger's sr-556 or whatever it's called is a piston system too. I don't really see the need myself. Your just adding other moving parts that get dirty instead of the receiver area. You can run dirty ass mil-surp ammo all day until you have a problem with the stock ar, then put a few drops of clp on the bolt and do it again.

[Chris]

Worst-case, you get a failure to feed and have to clear it. But alot of people like to envision themselves in some epic firefight and .... you know the rest.

The AR does shoot dirtier. After prolonged firing, you're dirty. It's in your mouth, sinuses and on your clothes. You don't get that with an AK, HK oe M1A1 type rifle.

[Von Bongo]

The gas-piston systems are a novelty. But it does give you something else to play with.

I don't know about that. Current bets are the piston system is the next upgrade to the M4 over a complete new gun. HKs 416 is getting a lot of good pub. Doubt we would buy a german version but I could see colt building it on license.

My guess (very uneducated) is that the next rifle will be Gas piston and in a 6.5-6.8 range. I think the military my be finding that the 5.56 doesn't go through walls as well as the 7.62 of the enemy and wants more stopping power.

The other advantage to the GP system is less heat.

[Tony]

[QUOTE=Trim'd Up;409579]Ruger's sr-556 or whatever it's QUOTE]



Ruger building an AR is like Jimmy Buffet offering a Manatee steak on his Margaritaville menu.

[Chris]

I don't know about that. Current bets are the piston system is the next upgrade to the M4 over a complete new gun. HKs 416 is getting a lot of good pub. Doubt we would buy a german version but I could see colt building it on license.

My guess (very uneducated) is that the next rifle will be Gas piston and in a 6.5-6.8 range. I think the military my be finding that the 5.56 doesn't go through walls as well as the 7.62 of the enemy and wants more stopping power.

The other advantage to the GP system is less heat.

Yeah- for a military rifle. But for you and I, it's a novelty. If ours jams, so what? I agree they're technologically superior, but the average civilian owner wants one just to have one. Me- there are plenty of other options out there that address the limitations (and my own personal pet peeve) regarding the AR gas system. Why buy a band-aid when there are plenty of other options out there? And most of them way more interesting. Plus, I kinda like showing up at the range with something different. Who doesn't own an AR?

I have a 416. Nice rifle. Nothing revolutionary- It's the same piston system that's been used for close to a century now. Everyone makes it. An as far as licensing, John Browning doesn't need the checks. Even funnier, it's the Armalite-patent rifle they sold to Colt that they've put the gas-op sytem that Browning invented and Marlin later perfected (and Kalashnikov copied) on. Talk about full-circle.

I don't see the military leaving the 5.56. There's way too much invested in it- both with us and our allies. War materiel supply is a major issue- and having different ammo than your allies is a major logistical problem. But if it happened, my guess is they would transition to the 6.8SPC. It gives a fairly substantial boost in firepower but still satisfies the present ammo-load requirements.

[Chris]

Ruger's sr-556 or whatever it's




Ruger building an AR is like Jimmy Buffet offering a Manatee steak on his Margaritaville menu.

No $hit. Even though Bill is dead and the company is in other hands, the mere mention of the Ruger name brings a bad taste to my mouth.

[Von Bongo]

Yeah- for a military rifle. But for you and I, it's a novelty. If ours jams, so what? I agree they're technologically superior, but the average civilian owner wants one just to have one.



Oh I agree 100%. That's why it's called Black Rifle Disease. But then again if the Zombies do come.....:willy_nilly:

[Chris]

I see these guys at the range and at the shows. And I hear some of the discussions. Sometimes they creep me out a bit. I understand some obsessiveness about a hobby, but some of these guys are Dungeons and Dragons weird.



(That's my second old-guy reference today- don't know if that's even remotely contemporary)

[Tony]

Go Ninja, Go Ninja, Go!

[WMF]

I have a couple AR's:sifone:

[Chris]

There are alot of non-AR options out there in a light assault rifle. From vintage AR-180's and Beretta AR-70's to rifles like the FN FS2000 and SCAR, the Robinson M-96, Bushmaster/Magpul, and one that I really like, the SIG.

Most of these rifles are superior in design to the AR platform. The only downside is that they're all more expensive.

[Tony]

Bushy/MASADA:D

...now about that lapua....

[Chris]

You like that better than the SCAR?

[RLJ676]

I see these guys at the range and at the shows. And I hear some of the discussions. Sometimes they creep me out a bit. I understand some obsessiveness about a hobby, but some of these guys are Dungeons and Dragons weird.



(That's my second old-guy reference today- don't know if that's even remotely contemporary)

Have you seen all the tacticool talk and gear these mall ninja's buy? AR15 can be a scary place....but so can any gun forum.

I like guns a lot, but these guys are obsessive, and convinced they will be in a 2 week firefight out of their house.

I read advice like "you need 12 mags to each AR you own", etc.

Oh, and I'm 29 and know that D&D is some serious dork action, but don't know that a 20 year old would? I also think a 20 year old may not have ever played pinball.....

[Chris]

I spend some time on the HK forum. All that crap is forbidden. How many mags/rounds/etc. All strictly verboten.

Mall Ninja. Yeah. That's about it too.