The Great Canopy debate: To cover or not to cover, Thats the question!

[2TR]

While planning my winter project about cutting the F16 canopy off my boat and building a 4 person DW style lid I have gotten allot of interesting e-mails and this is what I was told...

- Cut it off and keep it off, Open boats are safer; thrown clear is better than getting stuck inside a lid.

- Keep the F16 Canopy, its solid and safe enough for Hydro's traveling 200mph

- Remove the F16 Canopy and put anything on other than that death trap.

- Don't build a Doug Wright style lid, those are junk.. build a fountain copy.

- Don't build a Fountain style lid, those are junk.. build a Doug Wright copy.

- Canopied boats should be outlawed in poker runs, you flip and your stuck inside with out a dive team.

- open boats over 85 boats should be outlawed in poker runs, you flip and your in trouble.

- Build the canopy thick and heavy

- No matter how think and heavy you build it, it can fail.

So with this information I have come to the conclusion canopied boats are not always safe and open boats are not always safe.. so I guess racing is dangerous :confused:

[Chris]

I don't believe any canopy is safe at 200 mph. At least not one connected to the mass of an offshore boat. And your last one was spot on- you can break anything.

The open-top canopy seems like a decent compromise in a boat that doesn't have a rescue diver in a helo. It gives you some margin of protection and some margin of escape-ability. It also depends on the boat. It's pretty rare for a vee to stop upside down or to sink immediately. Cats on the other hand don't care which side they stop on so you've got a good chance of being trapped.

[imco offshore]

I don't believe any canopy is safe at 200 mph. At least not one connected to the mass of an offshore boat. And your last one was spot on- you can break anything.

The open-top canopy seems like a decent compromise in a boat that doesn't have a rescue diver in a helo. It gives you some margin of protection and some margin of escape-ability. It also depends on the boat. It's pretty rare for a vee to stop upside down or to sink immediately. Cats on the other hand don't care which side they stop on so you've got a good chance of being trapped.

your right most v bottoms roll over like a weebell, and good cats have 2 ways out thru the top hatch and another thru the floor (tunnel) so i vote canopy,

[DAREDEVIL]

- No matter how think and heavy you build it, it can fail.



AND U SAY SOMETHING ABOUT MY SPELLING ????:rofl:

[Tres]

This should not be a debate. Unless racing just remove the canopy and install some wind protection and has structural strength.

[Tom A.]

I agree with Tres. Canopies belong in racing and not pleasure boating. Accidents can happen at any speed but the reason I no longer race and stick to pleasure boating is because I like to enjoy my boat and keep my self out of hairy situations. I love running side by side but also have no problem backing off and saying now is not the time to run hard. Untrained people, no safety teams and an enclosed boat is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Tom A.]

As for race canopies, has anyone looked into building a passenger compartment capsule for two similar to what they use in the drag boats? Seems like that works well in high speed stuffs and rolls.

[2TR]

- No matter how think and heavy you build it, it can fail.



AND U SAY SOMETHING ABOUT MY SPELLING ????:rofl:




Nice catch.. LOL :sifone:

[2TR]

This should not be a debate. Unless racing just remove the canopy and install some wind protection and has structural strength.


I agree with Tres. Canopies belong in racing and not pleasure boating. .


Don't you need to worry about surviving that 100mph crash before worrying about getting out the wreckage? I would think getting pitched at 100mph in an open cockpit boat would kill a person.

Whats offers the best odds of survival on the initial impact?
- 100mph Roll in an canopied V-Bottom
- 100mph Roll in an Open Boat?


Just asking, not arguing.

[Steve 1]

Depends on how fast you are going? Racing speeds among Professional drivers Yes Now Racing Speeds among Unprofessional drivers that is up to you after a 100 I would put a lid on it.

[DAREDEVIL]

Don't you need to worry about surviving that 100mph crash before worrying about getting out the wreckage? I would think getting pitched at 100mph in an open cockpit boat would kill a person.

Whats offers the best odds of survival on the initial impact?
- 100mph Roll in an canopied V-Bottom
- 100mph Roll in an Open Boat?


Just asking, not arguing.

I think if u roll a open cockpit boat @ 100 ,,u will not be in the boat anymore when it comes down.
Thats why i like open boats better then canopy !!!:leaving:

[KSims1868]

On a "Pleasure Craft" for poker runs or whatever...why does it HAVE to be a permanent fixture that can't be removed? Or is that already an option that's been explored and removed from contention? I mean obviously all canopies are meant to be opened so you can get in and out, but are there canopy setups that were built to be removed and left off if the boater chooses to run around in an open boat?

I am NOT very well-versed in boat building (which is probably painfully obvious) but it seems that a nice compromise would be a removable top. There has to be a safe way to have the best of both worlds. With all the technology and new materials for building available today there's got to be an alternative to "canopy" or "no canopy".

[skaterdave]

I agree with Tres. Canopies belong in racing and not pleasure boating. Accidents can happen at any speed but the reason I no longer race and stick to pleasure boating is because I like to enjoy my boat and keep my self out of hairy situations. I love running side by side but also have no problem backing off and saying now is not the time to run hard. Untrained people, no safety teams and an enclosed boat is a disaster waiting to happen.

???????????

hhhhmmm, i disagree here. theres been just as many if not more fatal accidents in non-canopy poker run boats vs race boats lately. whos to say that if the accidents of late among the poker runners would have turned out different if they had capsules.

i'd rather be in a capsule upside down and have to swim out rather than any of the other options one could come up with.

plus the theory of needing a dive comes into question, since i have yet to see a situtation where the occupants of a racing accident that couldn't get out themselves lived. i'm sure that the dive teams do there jobs and the have pulled many to safety but in most off the rollovers the racers are out before anyone is even on scene and unfortunitly the accidents that the divers have to get the racers out its normally past the point of no return, i'm only stating what i've seen and heard about.

so not to have a canopy boat for safety reasons of not having a full time dive team avilable is kind of a oxy-moron when used as a reason for not have a canopy, especailly at the speeds of the boats now adays.

anything can be dangerous and the faster or greater the speed the more that danger multiplies. basically it comes down to what your comfortable in. the other thing that at pleasure boaters seem to overlook alot is that theres poeple involved that have put their lives in your hand and your responsible for them and others around you.

[Bradz]

Wasn't there a time when people did not want to wear car seat belts because they could trap you in the car? I have had a pleasure canopy and a now a open pleasure (same boat). I would much rather take my chances with the slim odds of drowning in the canopy then to get tossed out of a cat at a 150. Canopy boats are much safer in any condition in my book. However the reality is for pleasure boat use canopies are very loud, very hot and you can not see very well behind or to the side. I prefer open cockpits for pleasure use now.

[animalhouse]

That is a tough question, but as most of you know we had a canopied race boat (which was actually a production boat) roll over, both the driver and throttle man were safe and awake, they let themselves out of the boat. The canopy did not fail, infact the windshield is still in perfect condition.

[MikeyFIN]

unless you at least has taken the immersion test and have an air bottle and regulastors for the crew NO canopies...so therefore no in pleasure boats.

[BobbyB]

I got thrown at a high speed. And got hurt pretty bad and the driver passed away. So i think canopys are safer.

[Slandrew]

In a race yes but for pleasure obstructed view harder to escape I whould vote no.

[nortech4play]

This is a pretty interesting debate , on one hand yes the canopy boat offers more protection if used properly but an open cockpit offers better visibility and overall comfort...

Since I run and open cockpit cat that has a few blind spots which make running at modest speeds somewhat of a challenge without another set of eyes to make sure you can see everything around and in front of you.

I could be wrong and most probably are but I would think having a closed cockpit for pleasure boating would be in my mind incredibly difficult and mentally taxing.

Even then to make them effective you would always need to be securely belted in with supplemental oxygen but how many pleasure boaters actually do that when running at some of the high speeds that these boats run on a typical weekend?

I understand the need for canopy's in racing due to the high speeds and close quarters that the boats are running it's definitely an awesome safety improvement akin to cages and wings on sprint cars.

This is not to say I don't think they are some of the "sickest" boats out on the water they are but there just not for me. Although I did really like the retractable Nor-Tech that was at the shootout, it would be nice when the weather doesn't want to cooperate...

In the end it becomes a personal decision that someone should weight the "pro's and con's" seriously before running a boat with a lid.

just me $0.02

[Chris]

???????????

i have yet to see a situtation where the occupants of a racing accident that couldn't get out themselves lived.

Tom Gentry for one.

A couple of years ago the guys in the canopied turbine boat on Chesapeake (not racing, running alone)

Those come to mind as accidents where the occupants were trapped in the canopy.

[Ratickle]

No doubt a canopy is safer during the crash sequence. If you are strapped in and the latch is locked.

After the crash, who knows??? In most cases I'd say yes if at least one of you are familiar with the breathing apparatus and how to use it, and can teach others how without them panicking because they are upside down, underwater, in a sinking boat...... :sifone:

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Chris I think you are reading it wrong. I don't know of anyone rescued alive after capsizing either.

Those were two vary different situations both with tragic endings. Gentrys was a slow not violent roll over. He was said to have panicked and his life jacket was inflated in the boat preventing his escape. The turbine was a violent cart wheel and/or tumble.

Aside from any measure made for safety sake in most cases it comes down to the luck of the draw anyway. Or bad luck.

[Slandrew]

I have drove both in some situations I favor open boat!In each lap you are planning your escape in the event of crash or roll over mirrors to see who's passing you is tough also!Pleasure no canopy Racing conopy yes!

[JupiterSunsation]

In a crash would a detachable canopy like the one OL uses on their GTX boats (like XXX) break loose easily? The boat can be open (like a Fountain 42 PR) or can be enclosed with a hatch for entry/exit.

[MikeyFIN]

Chris I think you are reading it wrong. I don't know of anyone rescued alive after capsizing either.



forum Member Koho has done it Twice...
that´s why I ain´t scared with him either in any condition and he´s done other watersports also like me.

Rule no 1. Don´t panic( everybody does the first time..I did slightly at the immersion test even but you gotta get over it).
One good practice to do is to practice swimming and flip turns for the issue--or play underwater rugby..

There´s enough air inside a capsized boat and you get freed from the belts yourself.
The Boat doesn´t SINK Fast if at all.

While sailing dinghies I was about 7 yrs old when tought to go under a capsized boat if the sea is rough and your tired because theres a lot to hang into there, it´s warmer there and a lot of air also and it´s quite cozy in fact.


I was the first one *Ever overhere to turnmyself upside down in a flipped canopy..i.e. having my head up and therefore being able to either breathe the air inside or use the bottle and free myself of the lifejacket if needed inside the canopy if it becomes a problem.
Also one thinks a lot clearer and calmer IMO being upwards.
Oh sure it requires some agility to do that in a canopy... a lot of people wondered how I did it later I didn´t even notice myself do it..the divers mentioned it later.
Well to me it came naturally as in UW Rugby and competition swimming I´ve flipped since my pre teens ... add some Martial arts for the last 26 yrs in there and I don´t see a problem in it.

One has to be fit for race or stay at home... applies also for the poker runners IMO, and especially them and their crew.

[MikeyFIN]

I have drove both in some situations I favor open boat!In each lap you are planning your escape in the event of crash or roll over mirrors to see who's passing you is tough also!Pleasure no canopy Racing conopy yes!


If I take family, close ones or just passengers with me I don´t run hard at all... I take the most unexperineced with me into consideration.

Larry Smith told no offshore pleasureboat shouldn´t go faster than 70 miles...and he didn´t design one either.
And I think the man has a LOT of Sense right there.

[MikeyFIN]

In a crash would a detachable canopy like the one OL uses on their GTX boats (like XXX) break loose easily? The boat can be open (like a Fountain 42 PR) or can be enclosed with a hatch for entry/exit.


In fact that´s the unsafest possible thing..like carrying a guillotine with you...

[Wahoo 214]

It absolutely amazes me that a boat of 120 - 170 mph would not have ALL of the best safety equipment possible. You spend $200k on power but won't use the best canopy, vests, air masks and training available. That is just plain stupied. These are race boats that people say are pleasure boats and I would bet most would not get into a race car without belts, helmet, air bags, driving class and safety suits to run those speeds.

[Airpacker]

I would take ANY open boat over one with an improperly designed and crash tested canopy system. One only has to look at boats who's canopies failed during a crash to see that a poor canopy will kill you faster than a toss out. The water pressure in a closed cockpit with a structural failure can collapse lungs, blood vessels and even stop your heart.
A well designed canopy must be coupled with a well designed passenger retention system to be effective. No good being a broken egg inside the box either.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Mika, Are there any others on your side that have been rescued? Why did not Koho get himself out?

[Tom A.]

Skaterdave,
I was not only referring to the consequences of a crash, I was talking about the overall aspects of running in an open boat for pleasure situations vs. in a canopy. Yes when we go fast we take a risk of mechanical failures, unforeseen events, etc. that could cause a crash. As a pleasure boater, I don't run my boat on the jagged edge during a poker run or with a group of friends. I maintain safe distances and have multiple look outs while running. Racing involves running on the jagged edge in close proximity to other boats on the edge. For that, I want a canopy, belts, air etc. but when I am out for fun I want to be able to see and feel my surroundings and I know at any time I can back off the throttles and enjoy a leisurely cruise. Pleasure boats are just that, pleasure. My boat runs 100+ and I have been there only twice, both times with only one other person on board who understands the risks involved. Most of the time I cruise 60-70, even in poker runs.
In summary, the style of operation will skew the benefits and negatives of having or not having a canopy. If the hardcore yahoo wants to run a poker run like a race, then yes a canopy may be best. But if not then the extra visibility and awareness in an open boat is better in my opinion.

[2TR]

I would take ANY open boat over one with an improperly designed and crash tested canopy system. .

So true, but that was not the question. Some people (if given the choice) would rather have a open 130mph open MTI over a 130mph Canopied MTI.

Is that wise?

[skaterdave]

tom A., to each there own, my friend. i've been lucky enough to be on both sides, racing and pleasure. i'm a cat guy so i lean towards the canopy. cats are more prone to stuffs and spins and vees are alot more forgiving in general.

on the canopy side, i think its an unspoken rule that capsules have air systems. and while a dunk test helps along with a scuba cert. i don't think capsule should be looked at as negative for pleasure boats. people need to educate themselves. as for cruising speeds, i can only reference the pokerruns i've attended and seen video of, and very few boats are there "cruising". i will say that recently what i've seen is a much more controlled and safer runs, say then 4-6 yrs ago. there is also alot less boats and the adult beverages have seemed to be frowned upon now.

[Steve 1]

So true, but that was not the question. Some people (if given the choice) would rather have a open 130mph open MTI over a 130mph Canopied MTI.

Is that wise?

The question should be do you want to live or die? a flip at 130 !! you put your life in the skill level of the driver!

[MikeyFIN]

Mika, Are there any others on your side that have been rescued? Why did not Koho get himself out?

There has been quite a lot of flips over the years, can´t recall anyone that would been in serious trouble though.

Actually he got himself out of the boat yes and towed onshore so therefore rescued.
Was a bit unclear what was meant here.

At the Europeans in our class there was a Flip with an open boat and the guys while not strapped thought they would´ve been safer in a canopy boat.
The problem is in a canopy boat strapped, one can get carried away...

[MikeyFIN]

The question should be do you want to live or die? a flip at 130 !! you put your life in the skill level of the driver!

Correct and NO I wouldn´t anymore and will not take any risks myself either behind the wheel, noncompeting that is.

[MikeyFIN]

It absolutely amazes me that a boat of 120 - 170 mph would not have ALL of the best safety equipment possible. You spend $200k on power but won't use the best canopy, vests, air masks and training available. That is just plain stupied. These are race boats that people say are pleasure boats and I would bet most would not get into a race car without belts, helmet, air bags, driving class and safety suits to run those speeds.

They aren´t even raceboats... they are deathtraps if they are with a nut behind the wheel considering the passengers might only be strapped by lap belts or grip handles...
When the people inside gets flying no handle will hold you and a lap belt only pulls your neck apart in a sudden course change.

[MikeyFIN]

If the hardcore yahoo wants to run a poker run like a race, .

then he should come racing and find the good atmosphere(?) there is among racers.

Regarding Racers in the USA vs Europe I´d gotta say your atmosphere is a lot better on the raceforms I´ve been involved there ( Oval and offshore ).

And That´s why I don´t want to continue racing much over here anymore.

And A big thanks for that and the chance to do it goes to Scott aka Daredevil.
* Never Forget!

[TCEd]

If designed correctly a canopy and associated safety equipment should work. What gets my attention is that an add on canopy probably are not designed to be integerated into an existing non-canopy hull.

Look at NASCAR where everything is hung onto the roll cage as that's the backbone of the car. On a NEW DESIGN boat you can design that type of backbone into the structure, not a metal tube frame, but a structural composite frame to include the canopy.

Adding a canopy to an existing hull would be a structures design exercise for each and every hull and canopy design and may be impossible to complete on many boats.

To start, what do we consider the strongest structural component in a boat hull ? and how do we attach/integerate into that component without compromising the original design or the add on canopy ?

Lots to think about !
ed

[Steve 1]

That is the beauty of the composite business one can add any physical he needs and build up as much is desired and taper the loading into the structure in the Old days I had a desk top Calculator and a slide rule, Nowadays the sky is the limit with the programs.

[MikeyFIN]

If designed correctly a canopy and associated safety equipment should work. What gets my attention is that an add on canopy probably are not designed to be integerated into an existing non-canopy hull.

Look at NASCAR where everything is hung onto the roll cage as that's the backbone of the car. On a NEW DESIGN boat you can design that type of backbone into the structure, not a metal tube frame, but a structural composite frame to include the canopy.

Adding a canopy to an existing hull would be a structures design exercise for each and every hull and canopy design and may be impossible to complete on many boats.

To start, what do we consider the strongest structural component in a boat hull ? and how do we attach/integerate into that component without compromising the original design or the add on canopy ?

Lots to think about !
ed


sure is lots... but you gotta do it as you do it in racecars.

*the canopy is a safety capsule and can therefore be adapted to different configurations.

[Tres]

If your going to bring a person along in your boat, and you have a canopy you better be aware of the liability. First Who is going to say the the structure integrity of the canopy or glass is going to hold up to your high speed occurance. Did you do structural testing to said conopy? are the people riding along trained to exit properly? without panic? Is your air system properly up to date? Do you maintain it every time you use the vessel? If your are not strapped in, you will get hurt. You cannot access upper lid to open untill water PSI has equalized so you will need to stay put and breathe from a regulatorand mouth peice. You will be hanging from your seat upside down so you need to brace yourself to release harness. If you know where to grab and access or even where to reach for the regulator?. Do you know which way to swim when you get out of the canopy? What if your occupants are unconcience how are you going to keep them breathing and remove them? I have seen professional racers PANIC in the dunker test over and over again. When you go upside down in a boat you dont have your wits about you or have a clue from right or left. So lets put family and freinds into a canopy put them upside down and see if they can really struggle to make it to the surface to breathe again. You all think its easy. Its not at all. Quit this debate and move on.Wait untill the insurance company gets burried on one of these claims or think about the lawsuit you may be involved in when someone dies in your canopy boat.

[PM203]

If your going to bring a person along in your boat, and you have a canopy you better be aware of the liability. First Who is going to say the the structure integrity of the canopy or glass is going to hold up to your high speed occurance. Did you do structural testing to said conopy? are the people riding along trained to exit properly? without panic? Is your air system properly up to date? Do you maintain it every time you use the vessel? If your are not strapped in, you will get hurt. You cannot access upper lid to open untill water PSI has equalized so you will need to stay put and breathe from a regulatorand mouth peice. You will be hanging from your seat upside down so you need to brace yourself to release harness. If you know where to grab and access or even where to reach for the regulator?. Do you know which way to swim when you get out of the canopy? What if your occupants are unconcience how are you going to keep them breathing and remove them? I have seen professional racers PANIC in the dunker test over and over again. When you go upside down in a boat you dont have your wits about you or have a clue from right or left. So lets put family and freinds into a canopy put them upside down and see if they can really struggle to make it to the surface to breathe again. You all think its easy. Its not at all. Quit this debate and move on.Wait untill the insurance company gets burried on one of these claims or think about the lawsuit you may be involved in when someone dies in your canopy boat.

That about sums it up. Personally, I think canopies do not belong on pleasure boats.

[2TR]

If your going to bring a person along in your boat, and you have a canopy you better be aware of the liability. First Who is going to say the the structure integrity of the canopy or glass is going to hold up to your high speed occurance. Did you do structural testing to said conopy? are the people riding along trained to exit properly? without panic? Is your air system properly up to date? Do you maintain it every time you use the vessel? If your are not strapped in, you will get hurt. You cannot access upper lid to open untill water PSI has equalized so you will need to stay put and breathe from a regulatorand mouth peice. You will be hanging from your seat upside down so you need to brace yourself to release harness. If you know where to grab and access or even where to reach for the regulator?. Do you know which way to swim when you get out of the canopy? What if your occupants are unconcience how are you going to keep them breathing and remove them? I have seen professional racers PANIC in the dunker test over and over again. When you go upside down in a boat you dont have your wits about you or have a clue from right or left. So lets put family and freinds into a canopy put them upside down and see if they can really struggle to make it to the surface to breathe again. You all think its easy. Its not at all. Quit this debate and move on.Wait untill the insurance company gets burried on one of these claims or think about the lawsuit you may be involved in when someone dies in your canopy boat.


So you don't need to worry about Lawsuits if someone dies in a high speed open boat accident?

[2TR]

I was more concerned about the ABOVE avg. power boater, the 100mph plus boats.

[Tres]

So you don't need to worry about Lawsuits if someone dies in a high speed open boat accident? Well at least they are not being restrained. Going down with the ship is no fun. Dont make this thread get ugly like the cat insurance thread. You knew when you started this thread it would just fester people up. It just stir up the pot. Being a racer of 18 years I was very aware of the danger of being enclosed and what safety it offered at the same time, and drive teams still had to be present and inspect your vessel to see how to remove you from the canopy.Once a Canopy boat goes over, the clock is ticking, very fast.

[2TR]

Well at least they are not being restrained. Going down with the ship is no fun.

Dieing is no fun, correct

But what would you stand a better chance of surviving the initial impact in?

I don't want to turn this thread into a Internet slap fight, but with the speeds boats are going now a days I
would think a lid would be a good safety feature.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

That about sums it up. Personally, I think canopies do not belong on pleasure boats.

Boats are going too fast , Pleasure boats and race boats.

[imco offshore]

i was in sarasota bay today in a canopy at 109 and glAD it was a canapoy. i wouldn,t even think of it otherwise,

[Tres]

Boats are going too fast , Pleasure boats and race boats.
Amen. People dont want to hear that though. they forget how fast 100 really is.

[Tres]

Dieing is no fun, correct

But what would you stand a better chance of surviving the initial impact in?

I don't want to turn this thread into a Internet slap fight, but with the speeds boats are going now a days I
would think a lid would be a good safety feature.
Your right if your well trained and the canopy and structure have undergone stress testing. But for a consumer no! Coffin on the water.Even itf you crashed all by yourself at 150. when the boat crashes your brains are still going 150 untill they bottom out against the inside of your skull, thus leaving you non awake. as the boat sinks with you strapped in, you can figure that one out.If your thrown from a boat wearing a lifeline jacket, you may have a chance. Quit this! Do what you want, but dont drag this out there for everyone else to get this idea in their head.

[phragle]

So you guys tell me...would it be a good idea for a semi-unexperienced driver to run around Daytona motor speedway as fast as he possibly can in a 200 mph nascar that has had the roof cut off turning it into a convertable? with no seatbelts or helmet??

[Chris]

As long as manufacturers build canopy boats and sell them to the pleasure boating public, or people buy ex-raceboats and convert them to pleasure boats, this will remain a perfectly valid debate.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Boats are going so fast that no amount of safety equipment makes them safe. Yes even the state of the art equipment hasn't truly been tested at the high speeds boats are going.

Rob mentioned convertible Nascar.. How about racing Stadium Supercross in only shorts, flip flops and goggles. Both are safer than any boat going over 150. IMO

[catastrophe]

Tres makes the right points.

Canopy without dunk test knowledge,oxygen,helmet and a helicopter with divers overhead is a coffin.

IMO

[imco offshore]

If your going to bring a person along in your boat, and you have a canopy you better be aware of the liability. First Who is going to say the the structure integrity of the canopy or glass is going to hold up to your high speed occurance. Did you do structural testing to said conopy? are the people riding along trained to exit properly? without panic? Is your air system properly up to date? Do you maintain it every time you use the vessel? If your are not strapped in, you will get hurt. You cannot access upper lid to open untill water PSI has equalized so you will need to stay put and breathe from a regulatorand mouth peice. You will be hanging from your seat upside down so you need to brace yourself to release harness. If you know where to grab and access or even where to reach for the regulator?. Do you know which way to swim when you get out of the canopy? What if your occupants are unconcience how are you going to keep them breathing and remove them? I have seen professional racers PANIC in the dunker test over and over again. When you go upside down in a boat you dont have your wits about you or have a clue from right or left. So lets put family and freinds into a canopy put them upside down and see if they can really struggle to make it to the surface to breathe again. You all think its easy. Its not at all. Quit this debate and move on.Wait untill the insurance company gets burried on one of these claims or think about the lawsuit you may be involved in when someone dies in your canopy boat.

Tres, your right but,, that can be said for any boat on earth.. ask Bob? ,,that was an open boat? :USA:

[Tres]

Tres, your right but,, that can be said for any boat on earth.. ask Bob? ,,that was an open boat? :USA:Once again, Its OK if your a racer. Not a consumer. You forget know that you have been it it for a while the dangers of a consumer in a boat that has a false sense of speed, limited visibility,and distortion. and on a poker run??? Dont forget when the boat goes upside down, it lights out. They cant even see. Lets not forget HOW many racers have been killed in canopy restraint system. Please quit encouraging the use of this for pleasure performance boats. I have had to built closed lid boats for people against my wishes but had my client sign several pages of hold harmless agreements. This is a dangerous topic. Quit.

[PatriYacht]

I don't think anyone should be in a canopy boat without full time air, helmet with air mask. For the same reason that life jackets are designed to hold your head up when you come to the surface, you may be unconscious. How do you reach for a regulator when you are out cold?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Even the helmets with full time air are not adequately tested. Who's to say it will stay on your face if water hits your face and twists your helmet around? You really need a Hanns devise and even then there are problems that have not been addressed.

Paint Guinea pigs and crash dummys on the boat so unsuspecting soles wont be mislead by the illusion of safety.

[TCEd]

Watching the NASCAR race at Talladega yesterday and seeing the Ryan Neuman crash made me think about this thread. I know it was a different type crash ( pavement vs. water)and different materials ( steel vs. composite) but it sure took a long time to get him out of that car and they had a lot of people and resources at the scene working to extract him.
Fortunatly he walked away, not sure what the results would have been for a similar time span with a boat in the water.
ed

[Steve 1]

The point is the old rules do not apply here the speeds have gone into the twilight zone and the NASCAR accident a VERY good Observation they could have got to him right away if he was in a convertible.

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

Watching the NASCAR race at Talladega yesterday and seeing the Ryan Neuman crash made me think about this thread. I know it was a different type crash ( pavement vs. water)and different materials ( steel vs. composite) but it sure took a long time to get him out of that car and they had a lot of people and resources at the scene working to extract him.
Fortunatly he walked away, not sure what the results would have been for a similar time span with a boat in the water.
ed

This and similar threads are incredibly tiring to me and as Tres has already proclaimed they are dangerous for the overall health and sustainability to our sport.

Just for a minute let’s explore the NASCAR/HP BOAT ANALOGIES.
1. Throw out materials and only look at material properties.
2. Using existing test protocols to provide baseline SM calcs for know materials
3. Develop proper testing procedures
4. Use probabilistic analysis to develop design criteria
5. Use the final engineering analysis to identity performance criteria.
6. Verify the performance criteria are measurable and quantifiable.
7. Test the final combination of parts and process to established standard.

With all you experts pontificating about what is better.

Which one of you has asked for laminate Schedules?
Who has asked for verification testing of stretched acrylic/ Polycarbonates?
Would anyone care to see some finite element analysis done?
Do you really believe this is infinite dimensional linear problem?

We haven’t even started the Human Factors and behavior analysis yet.

I am not an engineer but I have an IQ high enough to know this is a problem which needs to be addressed at U of M, Naval Academy or similar. I do work with engineers and naval architects who build **** like this www.Oasisoftheseas.com and they seem to know something.


Not one person has yet recognized you are all talking about a passive response mechanism rather than focusing on the prevention side of the problem.

Until someone of adequacy can really speak to the multi nodal nature of this problem lets keep this simple.

Recreational boats are meant to recreate in. The brain engages and knows is can be trained to drive properly and slow the **** down when you are out of our zone, therefore PREVENTING casualty requiring either active or passive safety response mechanisms.

If you like a lid go buy a race boat and go round and round.

If I were to build a NASCAR I am quite certain all of my questions and more could be answered in minutes by proper authority.

Now go ask your boat builder the same. There are some who can provide the right answers.

I’ll see you OFFSHORE!

OUT

[Steve 1]

Nobody is "pontificating" about anything! As there are some of us here who do Design and Build by the numbers and have been involved in Panel & Structural analyses and design for 30 years that really have built life saving canopy systems. When you can say the same then Butt in!

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

Nobody is "pontificating" about anything! As there are some of us here who do Design and Build by the numbers and have been involved in Panel & Structural analyses and design for 30 years that really have built life saving canopy systems. When you can say the same then Butt in!

Which is why I stated above some manufactures can and do provide the correct answers. The problem remains the industry has a whole lacks professional structure and standards.

[Steve 1]

Which is why I stated above some manufactures can and do provide the correct answers. The problem remains the industry has a whole lacks professional structure and standards.

Right it is like the wild west out there in many respects.

[imco offshore]

Brad , i respect what you and Tres are doing,, i also understand you two get into boats with Rich Johnny Speedracer,,,who scares the death out of you.,,,the fact is there are alot of very rich people out there who buy big fast toys, and have no respect for their, their friends, or the guy next to them,,,they were never tought it as a child, the only thing they know is with enough money you can buy anything anybody else has, there are people who own these toys and respect them.. RICH JOHNNY SPEEDRACER buys a lamborgini and wrapes it around a tree kills his best friend,,because he was never told how to drive it,Mario Andretti drives one without a problem,, i don,t know what the answer is,,, but every super car on the raod will kill.... the race cars have special equiptment in them ,,, same with boating,,, thanks for your efforts i know you have peoples intrest at heart...george jr.

[glh]

...the industry has a whole lacks professional structure and standards.I would venture that there is not enough economic volume in that industry to support these two items.

Same reason why insurance in those fringe areas of performance boating is practically unobtainable, and why so many manufacturers are having somewhat of a hard time these days.

If you compare anything to these boats economically or "wipe yourself out wise factor", don't go to NASCAR compare them to motorcycles.

Fortunately for motorcycle enthusiast (maybe not as fortunate for the one that wipe out)there is volume enough in motorcycle insurance pool to offset the ones that wipe themselves out. This more than likely due to the relative ease economically speaking based on the average general population revenues of going 170mph on a motorbike.

[MikeyFIN]

If your going to bring a person along in your boat, and you have a canopy you better be aware of the liability. First Who is going to say the the structure integrity of the canopy or glass is going to hold up to your high speed occurance. Did you do structural testing to said conopy? are the people riding along trained to exit properly? without panic? Is your air system properly up to date? Do you maintain it every time you use the vessel? If your are not strapped in, you will get hurt. You cannot access upper lid to open untill water PSI has equalized so you will need to stay put and breathe from a regulatorand mouth peice. You will be hanging from your seat upside down so you need to brace yourself to release harness. If you know where to grab and access or even where to reach for the regulator?. Do you know which way to swim when you get out of the canopy? What if your occupants are unconcience how are you going to keep them breathing and remove them? I have seen professional racers PANIC in the dunker test over and over again. When you go upside down in a boat you dont have your wits about you or have a clue from right or left. So lets put family and freinds into a canopy put them upside down and see if they can really struggle to make it to the surface to breathe again. You all think its easy. Its not at all. Quit this debate and move on.Wait untill the insurance company gets burried on one of these claims or think about the lawsuit you may be involved in when someone dies in your canopy boat.

Listen to the Man...
Right on the button there.

Tres you took the word out of my mouth.
Thank you.
No one should be in a canopy boat unless know the drill and Racing IMO.
And Still there´s a risk everytime one Panics in an accident.

[MikeyFIN]

So you don't need to worry about Lawsuits if someone dies in a high speed open boat accident?

Why would it be any different ?

The Captain has all the responsibility at sea.

[MikeyFIN]

So you guys tell me...would it be a good idea for a semi-unexperienced driver to run around Daytona motor speedway as fast as he possibly can in a 200 mph nascar that has had the roof cut off turning it into a convertable? with no seatbelts or helmet??


without the belts on he´d be hard pressed to go over buck fifty.... as he has to hold himself still with the wheel even with a roof on... just leave the belts out.
Come on get real...
I dunno about Daytona never been there but Talladega yes.

[Twin27Advantage]

I want a canopy V for pleasure! (if this market ever turns around and I sell my boat) For me it would extend my boating season by a good 3 months. I would use A/C and heat for comfort. For ME, we go somewhere then hang out on the bow, friends boats, or a beach. On a canopy boat I would put 4 chairs on the bow with a table and umbrella. (all billet and fabric matching the paint of course :)) Much more comfortable than leaning against a bolster. It would also make running from port to port in 3-5's more comfortable by eliminating the spray in the face.

I think allot of guys look at it from a racing standpoint and assume people would be doing the same thing off the course. Most people pleasure boating dont go making high speed sharp turns for the heck of it. Most are running in a straight line, even on poker runs.

Look at most accidents of pleasure performance boats...
(this would be for v bottoms)

1. To sharp of a turn in a step bottom (usually low speed).
Can be avoided with knowledge. Usually results in people being tossed from the boat as it spins out. A harness and correct seat will prevent major injury. Unless you are making high speed sharp turns it is extremely unlikely the boat will ever go over and leave you stuck inside. I would say you have a 20% chance of being left upside down and a 50/50 shot of getting out.

2. Running at night and hitting another boat or seawall.
Almost every accident you read about is from someone being tossed in the water hurt bad and cant be found because of the darkness. This is no different than a car accident. A harness or even a seatbelt would avoid most injury.

3. Running to fast, not know the waterway, and hitting shore or a marsh.
Most get tossed and hurt upon landing in shallow water or the trees. Again, do different than a car accident and a harness would keep you in place.

4. tripping and stuffing.
I dont think I have ever heard of a v-upside down from this but it is a possability. Again a harness will stop you from slamming your body into the dash.

A cat would be a bit different, but...

Sure you would have to wear your belt or harness all the time. but in a sit down boat your not walking around anyway so no big deal. If you go take your custom car out for a cruze to the local gathering of custom cars you would wear your seatbelt right? I am sure many will disagree with me, but go pull up all of the pleasure boating accidents you can find with any boat. You will find that 99% are the result of #2, #3, and 4.

[MikeyFIN]

If you like a lid go buy a race boat and go round and round.

If I were to build a NASCAR I am quite certain all of my questions and more could be answered in minutes by proper authority.

Now go ask your boat builder the same. There are some who can provide the right answers.

I’ll see you OFFSHORE!

OUT


Amen.

When are you next time over here ?
And maybe we´ll meet in KW?

[MikeyFIN]

I want a canopy V for pleasure! (if this market ever turns around and I sell my boat) For me it would extend my boating season by a good 3 months. I would use A/C and heat for comfort. For ME, we go somewhere then hang out on the bow, friends boats, or a beach. On a canopy boat I would put 4 chairs on the bow with a table and umbrella. (all billet and fabric mating the paint of course :)) Much more comfortable than leaning against a bolster. It would also make running from port to port in 3-5's more comfortable by eliminating the spray in the face.

I think allot of guys look at it from a racing standpoint and assume people would be doing the same thing off the course. Most people pleasure boating dont go making high speed sharp turns for the heck of it. Most are running in a straight line, even on poker runs.

Look at most accidents of pleasure perfromance boats...
(this would be for v bottoms)

1. To sharp of a turn in a step bottom (usually low speed).
Can be avoided with knowledge. Usually results in people being tossed from the boat as it spins out. A harness and correct seat will prevent major injury. Unless you are making high speed sharp turns it is extremely unlikely the boat will ever go over and leave you stuck inside. I would say you have a 20% chance of being left upside down and a 50/50 shot of getting out.

2. Running at night and hitting another boat or seawall.
Almost every accident you read about is from someone being tossed in the water hurt bad and cant be found because of the darkness. This is no different than a car accident. A harness or even a seatbelt would avoid most injury.

3. Running to fast, not know the waterway, and hitting shore or a marsh.
Most get tossed and hurt upon landing in shallow water or the trees. Again, do different than a car accident and a harness would keep you in place.

4. tripping and stuffing.
I dont think I have ever heard of a v-upside down from this but it is a possability. Again a harness will stop you from slamming your body into the dash.

A cat would be a bit different, but...

Sure you would have to wear your belt or harness all the time. but in a sit down boat your not walking around anyway so no big deal. If you go take your custom car out for a cruze to the local gathering of custom cars you would wear your seatbelt right? I am sure many will disagree with me, but go pull up all of the pleasure boating accidents you can find with any boat. You will find that 99% are the result of #2, #3, and 4.


You need to get a MasMar.. a double hulled canopied pleasure boat ranging from 33-75 feet classed by Lloyds as a B-class offshore yachts.
http://images.google.fi/images?rlz=1C1CHMG_fiFI308FI308&sourceid=chrome&q=MasMar&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=fi&tab=wi

the First one is my former Racing Bosses 47 with twin C11´s Surface drives and 60+ mph in any weather and feels totally Numb in the process so the passengers will enjoy the Ride. If you´re interested you might wanna go for a Ride with it I can arrange it for you.

This 75 footer is a genuine 70mph boat though..and can take you form Helsinki to Copenhagen ( across the Baltic) in 12 hrs at cruising speed.

http://images.google.fi/images?hl=fi&rlz=1C1CHMG_fiFI308FI308&q=MasMar%2075J&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

We have somewhat Fast ( read 70mph) canopied/cabin boats allover over here and would need a separate Cabin boat thread IMO.


Having one when it gets cold is way fun to run in, think of it, you and your best company by yourself..the archipelago or whatever you got all by yourself, you have it warm and cozy.. dock somewhere to have quality time by just the 2 of you and maybe even sleep overnight in the boat.... what do you think...gonna hit a homerun or not?

Here´s a small Swedish 25 Footer I happen to like a lot...
Making a driveby "downtown" Stockholm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8xG4NBUqY8

[Twin27Advantage]

MikeFIN, that is a pretty kick AZZ boat. Not my style but very, very cool!

[MikeyFIN]

ohh you where too fast.. which one you mean...
So I take you like a Fast Cabin boat...sorta like a patrol boat?

[phragle]

another avenue that has not been addressed is for lack of a better term "focused instinct" with no hard data to support, but from practicle experience, There are 2 distinct mindsets, racing and recreation. with a solid 10+ years doing motorsports rescue, when one is racing, one is hyperfocused and the brain works on a subconsicous neuronal pathway of action and reaction. The racer does not "think" when things happen, he reacts instincually. When recreating this pathway is not as active. Thus a seasoned racer is much more likely to have a serious accident when not racing. he may be very comfortable racing at 120-150 mph, but when doing these speeds recreationally with passengers and various other distractions he simply is not as focused.

[Twin27Advantage]

ohh you where too fast.. which one you mean...
So I take you like a Fast Cabin boat...sorta like a patrol boat?

The 33 is cool but the one at the bottom of this page has some nice lines:
http://www.masmarboats.fi/news.html

My goal in a canopy boat is moderate power, speeds a little over a hundred, lots of bling, and a basic cabin with small sink, bed, mirror, and tv. We only stay on the boat a few times a year. It is usually coming back from the bars late and using the mirror for...you know & the wife in the morning :), the tv to fall asleep, and the sink to brush your teeth.

I almost never run my boat wide open...I like being able to cruze in the 70mph range. Being able to run 70's with the drives at 0 makes for a very comfortable ride and great handling since you are not trimmed out trying to get every last mph out of it.

[MikeyFIN]

The 33 is cool but the one at the bottom of this page has some nice lines:
http://www.masmarboats.fi/news.html


I took another thread discussing just this...and yes that´s also a 33, the original one.
The man with the 75J just bought the whole company... well he can swing it..he owns most of the paper/cardboard packaging industry in North America...

[Big Time]

Being strapped into a full canopy boat, are you at a disadvantage if you are wearing a pdf? What are the racers required to wear?

[Wahoo 214]

manual inflatiable vests. You swim out and then pull the vest.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Being strapped into a full canopy boat, are you at a disadvantage if you are wearing a pdf?

You would not be able to get out with a regular pfd if it were to go over.

We race with inflatable ones as Dean mentioned.

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

another avenue that has not been addressed is for lack of a better term "focused instinct" with no hard data to support, but from practicle experience, There are 2 distinct mindsets, racing and recreation. with a solid 10+ years doing motorsports rescue, when one is racing, one is hyperfocused and the brain works on a subconsicous neuronal pathway of action and reaction. The racer does not "think" when things happen, he reacts instincually. When recreating this pathway is not as active. Thus a seasoned racer is much more likely to have a serious accident when not racing. he may be very comfortable racing at 120-150 mph, but when doing these speeds recreationally with passengers and various other distractions he simply is not as focused.

This is a great point and has been addressed at length. Tres and I actually teach this in class and have a full lesson plan to which this is incorporated with situational awareness.

We create somatic models and through skill training teach and embed human behavior response mechanisms.

[imco offshore]

This is a great point and has been addressed at length. Tres and I actually teach this in class and have a full lesson plan to which this is incorporated with situational awareness.

We create somatic models and through skill training teach and embed human behavior response mechanisms.

so does that mean you do a dunker test repeatdly,,

[Chris]

If you're going to run a canopy, you shopuld probably be professionally drown-proofed. All military pilots are. It's an unpleasant process, but it allows you to control the drowning reflex that virtually everyone has- even the strongest swimmers.

[phragle]

a lot of viable statements have been made on why it's better to have a lid, or why it's better to be in an open boat. A lot of opinions have been expressed by a lot of very knowledgable people. The simple fact is there is no complete body of evidence in either direction. No comprehensive accident analysis and no studies encompassing all the possible variables. The perfect canopy does not yet exist, open pleasure boat speeds have increased to the point that in a high speed accident, death or serious injury may be inevitable. You have a catch 22 situation where a canopy may help you to survive the initial accident yet may then put you in an unescapable situation of being trapped and drown. The only thing I can really contribute is that I have looked at every crashed boat I can to see and understand the damage to the boat, what held up and wat didn't in the canopy so I can better understand exactly what happens to the people on board, what the forces are and where they come from so that I can better anticipate and treat the corresponding human injuries.

[Steve 1]

The way I look at it is the chance's of survival are Much better With the Canopie. If someone wanted a Canopied boat and I talked them out of it (which I never ever would)for some these reasons listed in this thread then whatever happens would be my fault and I would have to live with that.

We have a good Idea of the forces involved unless Say it strikes a solid object like another boat running across it and BTW people have survived that also. The drag Boat guys are surviving horrific accidents in their canopied boats.. I Personally have seen the upside and the down side to this and have Drawn my own conclusions long ago.

[rainmn]

I don't see a lot of talk about the potential visibility downsides to running a canopy on a crowded waterway. I've never even sat in a canopied boat, so I don't know if it's a real concern or not.

Where I spend most of my time boating (Barnegat Bay) is a virtual zoo on a summer weekend, as I'm sure many of the bays & lakes are that other members call home. I couldn't imagine running in that bay at any rate of speed without having good 360 degree visibility.

For those of you who have run a canopied boat (Not on a race course, where everyone is theoretically going in the same direction), is the visibility an issue?

[Wahoo 214]

You can reduce the blind spots with cameras like we have in our boat. It is not like an unrestricted clear view but with two cameras I can see all the way around the boat.

[Wahoo 214]

Brad/Tres

Do you teach dunker tests in your classes? If you do, what kind of dunker are you using?

[phragle]

Dean looks around his boat by doing Crazy Ivans... http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/smilies/party-smiley-004.gif

[Twin27Advantage]

I went and searched for several pleasure boating accidents on this site, oso and all over the net. Besides a couple of cats and a V, none involve a boat that is upside down. The only ones that have boats consistently upside down are race boats during high speed turns.

The leading cause of a boat sinking is from overloading or anchoring to the stern. The first should not happen with a canopy, and the second is solved with a smart captain.

For the reasons I stated in post #71 it looks like a canopy and belts would have saved about 90% of the deaths caused during pleasure boating. Looking back at all of the accidents that happened in our area (Grand Haven/Spring Lake) and all the ones from Hot Boat (Hardy Dam) over the years, every death may have been avoided. Especially the ones from this summer.

Maybe I am just ignorant...

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

Brad/Tres

Do you teach dunker tests in your classes? If you do, what kind of dunker are you using?

Presently we do not support full canopied boats for pleasure use. We concentrate on performance pleasure boating and preventative measures.

However, David D and I are working up a add on program for the future whcih will include mandatory training with a recertification schedule.

Problem is the accidental passengers along with others.

[Tres]

I went and searched for several pleasure boating accidents on this site, oso and all over the net. Besides a couple of cats and a V, none involve a boat that is upside down. The only ones that have boats consistently upside down are race boats during high speed turns.

The leading cause of a boat sinking is from overloading or anchoring to the stern. The first should not happen with a canopy, and the second is solved with a smart captain.

For the reasons I stated in post #71 it looks like a canopy and belts would have saved about 90% of the deaths caused during pleasure boating. Looking back at all of the accidents that happened in our area (Grand Haven/Spring Lake) and all the ones from Hot Boat (Hardy Dam) over the years, every death may have been avoided. Especially the ones from this summer.

Maybe I am just ignorant... There are way more accidents then what you see on the net. Canopy boats will kill more people. Quit! Above mentioned is correct, Very limited visibility and very distorted veiws which alone will cause accidents.If you want to go this direction and a few more people get killed in this type of design, you will lose all High speed powerboating insurance. Many racers have died thinking this device would save their life and it did not. They are trained to escape as well. Put a family in this type of a boat and now you have a bad deal. Canopies are for racing only. Its alot easier to play with peoples lives when your telling them its safe. If you think your safe when your in one, its a false sense of security. End this thread.You forget this is your last freedom on earth, lets not end it with trapping humans in water coffins to drown.

[Twin27Advantage]

There are way more accidents then what you see on the net. Canopy boats will kill more people. Quit! Above mentioned is correct, Very limited visibility and very distorted veiws which alone will cause accidents.If you want to go this direction and a few more people get killed in this type of design, you will lose all High speed powerboating insurance. Many racers have died thinking this device would save their life and it did not. They are trained to escape as well. Put a family in this type of a boat and now you have a bad deal. Canopies are for racing only. Its alot easier to play with peoples lives when your telling them its safe. If you think your safe when your in one, its a false sense of security. End this thread.You forget this is your last freedom on earth, lets not end it with trapping humans in water coffins to drown.

Most of the ones I looked at are from news stories around the country. If it involved a death it almost always makes the news. 95% of the deaths would have been avoided if the person was starpped into a seat and did not fly out of the boat.

Sure if a person tries to run around at wide open making high speed turns they are going to get hurt. In a pleasure application I dont see this happening with a informed and safe captain.

If I were a insurance company I would almost give a person a discount. Again none of the ones I have read about involve a boat going upside down, except a few cats. All are from hitting piers, shore, or other boats. All would benefit from being strapped in. From what I see, the stats are very clear. For once you would hear "4 are safe after boat runs onto a marsh, or into a seawall, or was run over by another vessel?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I will prey for you.

Better yet your passengers.

[Tres]

Most of the ones I looked at are from news stories around the country. If it involved a death it almost always makes the news. 95% of the deaths would have been avoided if the person was starpped into a seat and did not fly out of the boat.

Sure if a person tries to run around at wide open making high speed turns they are going to get hurt. In a pleasure application I dont see this happening with a informed and safe captain.

If I were a insurance company I would almost give a person a discount. Again none of the ones I have read about involve a boat going upside down, except a few cats. All are from hitting piers, shore, or other boats. All would benefit from being strapped in. From what I see, the stats are very clear. For once you would hear "4 are safe after boat runs onto a marsh, or into a seawall, or was run over by another vessel?
OK your the smart one. You know better. EXpert I say. You should start your own insurance company.Yes turn it over in shallow water where you cant even open the canopy. You have NO idea.

[Twin27Advantage]

OK your the smart one. You know better. Move on

Ok, show me the accidents that actually happened during pleasure use that would leave someone trapped in a coffin that did not happen at a race.

The few from poker runs are already tainted by poor judgement or Negligent Operation as defined by the USCG.
"Excessive speed in the vicinity of other boats or in dangerous waters."

[imco offshore]

don,t forget alcohol and drugs on the water, how many accidents did they help?

[skaterdave]

first off this thread was started by a racer that wants to use his "race boat" for pleasure boating. and to make his boat more user friendly he wanted to change his canopy from his current setup of sitting one behind the other to a four man canopy.

if the canopy is properly installed it would add value and safety to his current boat.

next, since he aready has a canopy boat, he's familiar with the canopy routine. so how is it a "coffin" on the water ????

sorry i disagree with the whole concept that canopys are "bad". its a safety device that if educated on how to use would increase your chances in a accident.

currenttly i have not seen or heard of any boat manufacture doing any physical testing of there canopys. the design of these canopys are all based off of past boat wrecks and engineering data from math equations. so lets not compare this to nascar where they actually have done "destructive" testing and can base thier data off of proven facts and tests.

[imco offshore]

well i,m not sure but i think there is a foundation that does research and development on canopys ,,, i think his name is George Linder and the foundation is the Laven foundation,, i do remember crashed boats getting disected and tested for structure. at least they are doing something for our safety

[skaterdave]

my point is i have yet to hear of any of the manufactures bulding canopys or boats with canopys and performing tests on them to get real-time data.

i will say this however after being in both open and canopy boats.

canopys are far safety in any sititation. if you were to drown in one, most likely would have been already dead from the intial impact.

yes there are much harder to see out of and would need special training if you plan on being in one.

[haydenhamlin]

I have spoke with alot of experienced cat owners, and most say they would rather be in a open top with a 5 pt. harness setup.

[PM203]

I thought the old rule was not to run a canopied boat unless you had a rescue team with divers available.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

I thought the old rule was not to run a canopied boat unless you had a rescue team with divers available.

Yes, and another old rule is never be restrained in an open boat.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Welcome to the site Hayden.