Can you be drunk in your home and posses a firearm? [Archive]

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Tommy Gun

10-09-2009, 12:03 PM

Case weighs gun rights, intoxication

By T.J. Greaney/Columbia Daily Tribune, Mo. (MCT)
Published: Friday, October 9, 2009 12:09 AM CDT

Now comes the curious case of John L. Richard (pronounced "ree-shard").

In November 2006, Scott County sheriff's deputies were dispatched to Richard's home in Benton in response to a domestic dispute. His wife told a 911 operator that she had decided to leave him and he threatened to kill himself by "blowing his head off."

She said Richard cautioned that if police responded, he would make them shoot him. Before deputies arrived, however, Richard swallowed an unknown amount of morphine and amitriptyline. Deputies found him slumped over in a chair, unconscious with a fully loaded Beretta 9 mm semi-automatic handgun in his lap. He also had a shoulder holster with a spare clip of ammo, implying he intended to shoot more than just himself.

Scott County deputies did the prudent thing. They confiscated Richard's gun, took him into custody, and he was later charged with possessing a loaded firearm while intoxicated, a Class D Felony.

But a funny thing happened on the way to a conviction. Richard's attorney requested a change of venue to Mississippi County and asked a judge there to dismiss the case. He argued it violated both the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and Article 1 of the Missouri Constitution, which protects a citizen's right to keep and bear arms in defense of home, person and property.

The judge agreed and tossed out the case.

Because the ruling threatened to invalidate a state statute, the appeal went straight to the Missouri Supreme Court. Last week, both sides made their arguments.

So the question was put to the state's highest legal authority: Do we Missourians have an inalienable right to pack heat while wasted?

Richard's attorney argued "yes." He said that the law, as it is written, threatens any law-abiding gun owner who happens to get drunk from time to time inside his own home. If the gun is nearby and the owner is impaired, he could be ruled by police to be "in possession" of the firearm.

And what about the guy who takes prescription medication and keeps a gun in the house? Should he be worried about police knocking down his door and hauling him off to jail? State public defender Craig Johnston argued that a gun owner might have to choose between taking prescription pain pills and keeping a gun by his nightstand for protection.

"Gun owners are put in a position where they have to risk violating the law in order to be protected," Johnston said.

But assistant attorney general Karen Kramer pushed back hard on those arguments. She said Johnston was making a case that the law is so vague and broad that it has unintended consequences. She said this argument known as the "over breadth doctrine" should only apply to First Amendment cases and cases involving "inherent" human rights.

Additionally, she said, the law does not have a "chilling effect" that affects other rights.

"We're not talking about chilling the right to get drunk in one's home, if there is such a right," said Kramer. "Nor are we talking about chilling the right to take prescription drugs."

The judges, too, seemed skeptical of the gun-rights claim. They peppered Johnston with questions: What about a gun at a drunken party? What about a gun in the courtroom? Does a gun-owner's right to self defense prevent the state from passing any laws restricting gun possession?

The court's decision is due in the coming months.

What do you think?

Sea-Dated

10-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Interesting hmmmmmm........

fund razor

10-09-2009, 12:22 PM

"Deputies found him slumped over in a chair, unconscious with a fully loaded Beretta 9 mm semi-automatic handgun in his lap. He also had a shoulder holster with a spare clip of ammo, implying he intended to shoot more than just himself."

The spare clip didn't imply anything. Does the number of rounds in my home "imply" that I intend to shoot one person with each round??? What if my intent was to shoot one person with 11? Or nobody with 1,000?

Trim'd Up

10-09-2009, 12:27 PM

Boy, I'd be in trouble. I have a bunch of spare clips and god knows how many rounds of Ammo. I guess I better quit drinking. :rolleyes:

Wobble

10-09-2009, 12:47 PM

She said Richard cautioned that if police responded, he would make them shoot him.

[B]What do you think?

I'd call that a threat, they should have just shot him then read him his rights.

clayinaustin

10-09-2009, 12:49 PM

JupiterSunsation

10-09-2009, 01:00 PM

Offshoredrillin

10-09-2009, 01:08 PM

I believe that if you are legally drunk (or otherwise impared) you should not be allowed to "possess" anything that can harm yourself or others. This includes holding a loaded gun, driving a car, etc.

You can "possess" a car, but you can't "possess" the keys should not be allowed to drive it. You can possess a gun, but it has to be unloaded. You can "possess" the gun, but you can't "possess" the bullets.

Just my two-cents...
so according to this theory, I cant be drunk in my house with my jeep keys in my pocket, even if I never leave the house?

or I cant be drunk in my house with my loaded guns, even though they are in a safe?

I think the main point here to me, is that he made verbal threats to use the gun (intent/premeditation) to harm himself and the potential to do harm to someone else. The amount of ammo isnt an issue.

However for drunk driving, you are being punished for what you could do, meaning the potential of an accident. if you drive home and don't hurt anyone or yourself? other than having alcohol what laws have you violated? I'm not condoning driving under the influence, but it is one of the only laws in the country where you are held liable for the potential of what could happen.

clayinaustin

10-09-2009, 01:27 PM

However for drunk driving, you are being punished for what you could do, meaning the potential of an accident. if you drive home and don't hurt anyone or yourself? other than having alcohol what laws have you violated? I'm not condoning driving under the influence, but it is one of the only laws in the country where you are held liable for the potential of what could happen.

At the risk of taking this thread off track... You can be arrested for DWI because you pose a danger to yourself and to others. Ten of thousands of people have been accidently injured or killed because of drunk driving. No one will argue that drunk driving is safe.

On the other hand very few people have been accidently injured or killed because a drunk person was holding a loaded gun. But, I would argue that you still pose a danger to yourself and to others, and that the law should reflect that.

The police are NOT gonna break down your door and arrest you in your home unless someone calls and complains!

My advice... keep your guns, keep your alcohol, get drunk, but don't pi$$ off anyone! :sifone:

Trim'd Up

10-09-2009, 01:33 PM

My main problem with your thoughts Clay is when you are legally drunk, who is really intoxicated. I am sorry but .08 is far from drunk in my eyes. A person at .08 who has been around guns their entire life and has a proper respect for them is much safer than some idiot with one cold sober. This goes for boats, cars etc. I guarantee that most of the people on this site are safer driving a boat at .08 than the average person on the water sober.

Offshoredrillin

10-09-2009, 01:43 PM

At the risk of taking this thread off track... You can be arrested for DWI because you pose a danger to yourself and to others. Ten of thousands of people have been accidently injured or killed because of drunk driving. No one will argue that drunk driving is safe.

On the other hand very few people have been accidently injured or killed because a drunk person was holding a loaded gun. But, I would argue that you still pose a danger to yourself and to others, and that the law should reflect that.

The police are NOT gonna break down your door and arrest you in your home unless someone calls and complains!

My advice... keep your guns, keep your alcohol, get drunk, but don't pi$$ off anyone! :sifone:

I don't disagree, and there have been too many fatalities and injuries because of drunk driving, so the laws were made to protect us. I understand that and accept it, it is a deterrent law.

Many people have been killed as well drunk with firearms, however that doesn't give them the right to say we cant have them in the same house drunk, or own and possess the keys to a vehicle. Now if someone was drunk and had the car keys and threatened to run someone over, yes that is cause for action. but by simply owning guns, vehicles, boats motorcycles whatever and drinking doesn't give them fair right to be arrested.

TCEd

10-09-2009, 01:50 PM

Guns and drunks, bad mix.
ed

Tony

10-09-2009, 02:04 PM

Like anything else, it all boils down to common sense and self dicipline. There is absolutly nothing wrong with being intoxicated in your own home while there are firearms inside your home.

Just becase Im at home drunk and I have the keys to the truck doesnt mean Im gonna go drive through a day care center. Just becase Im home drunk with some hot girl in my house doesnt mean that Im going to cheat on my future wife...so on and so forth.

JupiterSunsation

10-09-2009, 02:26 PM

I don't disagree, and there have been too many fatalities and injuries because of drunk driving, so the laws were made to protect us. I understand that and accept it, it is a deterrent law.

Many people have been killed as well drunk with firearms, however that doesn't give them the right to say we cant have them in the same house drunk, or own and possess the keys to a vehicle. Now if someone was drunk and had the car keys and threatened to run someone over, yes that is cause for action. but by simply owning guns, vehicles, boats motorcycles whatever and drinking doesn't give them fair right to be arrested.

Rob your getting too technical on the "possession" part. Drunk with car keys in your pocket is like drunk with a 357 in your nightstand. Drunk with keys in ignition (while in the driver's seat) is closer to sitting in your lazy boy with a loaded firearm. The first examples are possession technically but in reality I would call the second examples possession that could become dangerous to anyone in the vicinity. Part 1 examples should not be a crime, part 2 examples should be a crime.

JupiterSunsation

10-09-2009, 02:27 PM

Wrinkleface

10-09-2009, 02:48 PM

Boy, I'd be in trouble. I have a bunch of spare clips and god knows how many rounds of Ammo. I guess I better quit drinking. :rolleyes:

no, don't quit drink'n, get rid of ammo!!!!:biggrinjester:

Tony

10-09-2009, 03:35 PM

OK, a HUGE pet peeve of mine.

MAGAZINE, not clip. Kind of like offshore performance boat, not C-Gar boat.

fund razor

10-09-2009, 06:44 PM

OK, a HUGE pet peeve of mine.

MAGAZINE, not clip. Kind of like offshore performance boat, not C-Gar boat.

Hey, I was just quoting. :D

Now I am going to have a whiskey and clean some shotguns.

If we could only get people to realize that Apaches are NOT Cigarette boats. They're what beats Cigarette boats. :D :D

Bobcat

10-09-2009, 06:48 PM

clip

fund razor

10-09-2009, 06:55 PM

The problem really isn't drunks and guns.

It's binches that call the cops and tell them that we will need to be shot. ;)

Tommy Gun

10-09-2009, 07:04 PM

The problem really isn't drunks and guns.

It's binches that call the cops and tell them that we will need to be shot. ;)

No doubt...dude was sleeping with his gun in order to protect himself from this crazy *****, minding his own business and in rush the police, wake him up and bust him! Whoa...what if she really did make it all up? I mean the guy was asleep (passed out?), how much of a threat was he?

waterboy222

10-09-2009, 08:02 PM

I think i KNOW that chick or one that acted like her.. oh, wait.. THEY ALL ACT THAT WAY.. I guarantee it was more like:
"Woman, if you dont shut your trap, I swear to Jebus, I will put a bullet in my head. It'd feel better than listenin to you runnin around MY house screechin about how Im drinkin. So ima sit here with mah beer and mah gun and mah tv guide. Go head, call the cops, they gonna have to shoot me to keep me from shootin you for callin the cops!"

You know how it always get twisted around:rolleyes

I drink and play with guns every week.. :leaving:

Bote Loco

10-09-2009, 09:08 PM

Earlier this week, it was reported on TV that one of the Detroit Tigers came home at 5am very drunk. He got in fight with wife and police were called.

The police did not make any arests because "they could not tell who was the agressor, and there were no firearms in the house".

MAde me wonder about the very subject being discussed.

sledge

10-09-2009, 09:11 PM

"We're not talking about chilling the right to get drunk in one's home, if there is such a right," said Kramer.

A little off the topic but anyone else catch this? Scary thoughts coming out of this Kramer person. And this feels so much like legislating common sense right out of the gene pool.

Cops didn't witness the threat so it's his word versus hers. But I'd say probable cause to enter the house. Popo find the guy passed out with a gun, gotta take him in for something. It shouldn't have been thrown out but instead pled down to a misdemeanor with a bunch of counseling.

Isn't posession 9/10s of the law? Throw in some intent and you've darn near covered almost all of it. Do whatever you want inside your own home just keep the booze seperate from the bullets.

Wobble

10-09-2009, 09:45 PM

The problem really isn't drunks and guns.

It's binches that call the cops and tell them that we will need to be shot. ;)

That is a classic post:sifone:

Wobble

10-09-2009, 09:49 PM

A little off the topic but anyone else catch this? Scary thoughts coming out of this Kramer person. And this feels so much like legislating common sense right out of the gene pool.

Cops didn't witness the threat so it's his word versus hers. But I'd say probable cause to enter the house. Popo find the guy passed out with a gun, gotta take him in for something. It shouldn't have been thrown out but instead pled down to a misdemeanor with a bunch of counseling.

Isn't posession 9/10s of the law? Throw in some intent and you've darn near covered almost all of it. Do whatever you want inside your own home just keep the booze separate from the bullets.

Local Sheriff and Constable in my area say that if it hasn't calmed down by the time they get to the house, most likely they are going to take one person to jail to make sure that things don't escalate after they leave

sellsman11

10-09-2009, 11:38 PM

My wife says NO to guns when the booze comes out so this thread doesnt even apply to me. I'd rather have the cops on my azz than Amy!!:sifone:

clayinaustin

10-10-2009, 12:11 AM

Sometimes when we go on "hunting trips", we take the booze and leave the guns at home :D

Offshoredrillin

10-10-2009, 12:44 AM

Rob your getting too technical on the "possession" part. Drunk with car keys in your pocket is like drunk with a 357 in your nightstand. Drunk with keys in ignition (while in the driver's seat) is closer to sitting in your lazy boy with a loaded firearm. The first examples are possession technically but in reality I would call the second examples possession that could become dangerous to anyone in the vicinity. Part 1 examples should not be a crime, part 2 examples should be a crime.

ummm no im not and I'm drunk now, with loaded weapons and I drove home..weapons are still in the safe, I had no reason to get them out or to threaten myself. I have been in a strip club since 4 in the afternon and got home about midnight. you added the drivers seat thing, I didnt. the original thought was being in the house with them, mine are there, just how they looked when i last seen them, and im giddy as sh!t that they are... now realistically who am i hurting? aside from the cold spagetti that will make me fart in a few hours and the fact that my dogs had to hold wee wee for a couple hours longer....what law did i break aside from drinking and driving/ whoops shoulda been this >? HAHA...woooooooooo.... see the point?

Offshoredrillin

10-10-2009, 12:48 AM

A little off the topic but anyone else catch this? Scary thoughts coming out of this Kramer person. And this feels so much like legislating common sense right out of the gene pool.

Cops didn't witness the threat so it's his word versus hers. But I'd say probable cause to enter the house. Popo find the guy passed out with a gun, gotta take him in for something. It shouldn't have been thrown out but instead pled down to a misdemeanor with a bunch of counseling.

Isn't posession 9/10s of the law? Throw in some intent and you've darn near covered almost all of it. Do whatever you want inside your own home just keep the booze seperate from the bullets.
I agree 100% he had the gun out and was passed out, showed lack of ability to control the situation, god forbid a child grabbed it when he was passed out. recklass endagerment, and if someone hasd perished because of it, manslaughtER..............