Serious Project : Off with my Canopy !!!!!

[2TR]

This is going to be a fun project, I plan on removing my F16 2 person Canopy and grafting on a 4 person custom canopy so I can use the boat for more that racing and poker runs.

If I'm unhappy with the looks I'll just pull the plug and build an open cockpit much like a Motion or Spec. 30ft cat.

Any words of advice ?? :sifone:

[Airpacker]

Ya, measure TWICE, cut once :)

[Ratickle]

This is going to be a fun project, I plan on removing my F16 2 person Canopy and grafting on a 4 person custom canopy so I can use the boat for more that racing and poker runs.

If I'm unhappy with the looks I'll just pull the plug and build an open cockpit much like a Motion or Spec. 30ft cat.

Any words of advice ?? :sifone:

Sweet Rick, you know I've talked about that for a long time.

Wonder if Artie's ever modified one??????

[2TR]

Ya, measure TWICE, cut once :)

I was thinking measure 3 times, than mock it up that cut... LOL.

Last night we built a scale replica in the garage of the cock pit to measure head room, elbow room, leg room, throttle/shifter placement.

Next step is to wash the boat, than cover it with cardboard find all my center lines than draw with marker on the cardboard the shape of the new lid.

[Sean H]

What kind of layup and specs are you going to use for the canopy and cockpit?

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

It may be worth getting quotes on the pod piece and install it.

[2TR]

It may be worth getting quotes on the pod piece and install it.

I did from *&^%$*& :ack2 (*): ... at the price I was offered I'll just cut the top off and make it a pleasure boat and save 15k.

*Name withheld to protect the over priced. :rofl:


As far a Lay-up (?), no idea. Glassdave will be helping with the build and to make sure its extra save. I have a laid-off GM designer he used to work with Clay building prototype cars. He will be shaping the canopy from foam once I get the numbers and remove the current canopy.

Once hes done with the full size foam canopy I'll have Dave pull a plug off it.

I would also like to build in a Chromoly roll cage system for extra strength, but the boats top speed will only be 100mph so that may not be needed... but I have lots of time to work out those issues once step 1 threw 20 are finished.

[Sean H]

Should be a fun project.

Make sure you do the window/flange/mask correctly, don't want them falling out or failing.

[waterboy222]

Are you doing a side by side 4 seater with one canopy or open-cat style 1/4 canopys? Either way, im subscribing to this thread! Always enjoy talkin to you about your boat!

[Rik]

Yea, this will be an interesting project. If you need windscreens or canopies, let me know.

[2TR]

Are you doing a side by side 4 seater with one canopy or open-cat style 1/4 canopys? Either way, im subscribing to this thread! Always enjoy talkin to you about your boat!

Full canopy, like the Saracen Supercat Outboard runs overseas. The idea is to stretch it out if needed to accept 2 rear seats.

I like the style and it should look nice wit the current lines on my boat.

[chris sunsation]

Full canopy, like the Saracen Supercat Outboard runs overseas. The idea is to stretch it out if needed to accept 2 rear seats.

I like the style and it should look nice wit the current lines on my boat.

this will be a cool project for sure. Let me know when you are working on it I'll stop over with a case of blue mountains

[Offshore Ginger]

I have put on more then one four man canopy in the past and just curious is Dave going to make it as thick as a Skater canopy for the pure fact that they are built like a brick $hit house with some serious beef ? I think the 4 man is going to look and be awsome .

[Ratickle]

Any words of advice ?? :sifone:


Stop doing this.......:sifone:

[Ratickle]

I have put on more then one four man canopy in the past and just curious is Dave going to make it as thick as a Skater canopy for the pure fact that they are built like a brick $hit house with some serious beef ?

I was hoping you had.

What is the lightest, strong enough, way to build it for a absolute 120mph top speed boat. His is already heavy as is.

Carbon Kevlar weave with epoxy and a moly frame? Or ??????

[Ratickle]

Any words of advice ?? :sifone:

And stop doing this too........:sifone:

[2TR]

I have put on more then one four man canopy in the past and just curious is Dave going to make it as thick as a Skater canopy for the pure fact that they are built like a brick $hit house with some serious beef ? I think the 4 man is going to look and be awsome .

Not sure, but I will be taking Dave's advice about material, thickness and roll cage.

Safety first because you can go back and fix dead!

[MattBMiller]

And stop doing this too........:sifone:

Damn....beat me to it!:sifone:

[2TR]

And Yes Paul, I wont be burning my boat to the ground any time soon ... :ack2:

[Sean H]

I wouldn't put a steel cage in an outboard boat, a well designed canopy/cockpit liner system with an integral glass cage should be more than enough.

As nice as a carbon/kevlar canopy/cockpit sounds, that would end up costing probably more than what you want to put in that boat. Building an adequate bulkhead/liner system, canopy, windscreens, latch hardware, escape hatch, etc will be expensive enough.

[Sean H]

I was hoping you had.

What is the lightest, strong enough, way to build it for a absolute 120mph top speed boat. His is already heavy as is.

Carbon Kevlar weave with epoxy and a moly frame? Or ??????

Remember that the last two canopy failures were under 120 mph. The Popeyes 368 Skater canopy failed in KW under 120 and Jimmy's 388 Skater failed at 80.

Trying to put a speed number on a design is hard to do with these things. The best thing is to do is try to avoid the known issues that others have already found.

[2TR]

I wouldn't put a steel cage in an outboard boat, a well designed canopy/cockpit liner system with an integral glass cage should be more than enough.

As nice as a carbon/kevlar canopy/cockpit sounds, that would end up costing probably more than what you want to put in that boat. Building an adequate bulkhead/liner system, canopy, windscreens, latch hardware, escape hatch, etc will be expensive enough.

I'm not going to say what boat; But was on a AMT 30 a few years back and the canopy glass was thin and very flexible under my weight, and not even my full weight.

[Steve 1]

A Buzzi Canopy failed and Killed a friend of mine and those are well done the boat flew and landed sideways and it was ripped from the boat in pieces..

[Ratickle]

Remember that the last two canopy failures were under 120 mph. The Popeyes 368 Skater canopy failed in KW under 120 and Jimmy's 388 Skater failed at 80.

Trying to put a speed number on a design is hard to do with these things. The best thing is to do is try to avoid the known issues that others have already found.

I'll PM Rich. He, and his research with the Lavin group, should have some great insight.

And thanks for the reminder about speed, that's what I was trying to ask.

[Ratickle]

I wouldn't put a steel cage in an outboard boat, a well designed canopy/cockpit liner system with an integral glass cage should be more than enough.

As nice as a carbon/kevlar canopy/cockpit sounds, that would end up costing probably more than what you want to put in that boat. Building an adequate bulkhead/liner system, canopy, windscreens, latch hardware, escape hatch, etc will be expensive enough.

His boat already has two escape hatches, so some of that should be covered.

And money's no object to Rick, he'll photoshop more....:)

[phragle]

only 100.... next time your rolling down the freeway at 70~75, look at a bridge support, the speed you approach it, and when you get to it, imagine completely stopping in a 10th of a second. 100 is so commonplace anymore that it doesn't seem that fast, but if you stop and think about it........ thats how strong you need to build it.

[T2x]

For the record....... nobody has as yet created a canopy that is 100% flawless and, perhaps, no one ever will.

Peter has the best lamination and construction techniques for the basic roof structure. MTI has also made great improvements and has taken this quite seriously since the fatal accident at BIloxi a few years back. However, in many other hulls and almost all older designs the canopies are little more than decorations for a number of reasons:

1. The basic structure of the original, all polycarbonate, units was not strong enough for most side impacts and many frontal shots as well.

2. Even today the hinges and locking mechanisms are MUCH weaker than the canopy structures themselves. In addition any piece of locking or hinge hardware that is above the cockpit surface is subject to ballistic impact from water and debris and will, in too many cases, simply rip off ........releasing the hatch beneath it. The sad fact here is that proper latches and hinges in most cases need to be custom machined and cannot, ( and must not) be ordered from a marine hardware catalogue.

3. Based on the new high speed "snap roll" accident scenarios, the canopy structure must be built to withstand huge impact from any direction including the rear....most cannot.

4. The entire cockpit must be unitized and sealed to disperse pressure blasts from within through a hull or deck breach around the canopy (front deck, rear hatches, sides, bottom). These surfaces are in many cases lighter than the cockpit materials. Failure to address this will subject the canopy to tremendous pressure from within and seriously injure or kill the occupants without any actual penteration of the canopy itself.

5. Even the best builders and glass fabricators do not have a smidgeon of the knowledge required to design a true safety cockpit...... There are complete standards in the Lavin Guidelines (which, to be sure, need updating but are still far and above most current installations) and George Linder, the author and probably the most knowledgeable person in the industry on the subject, is available almost all of the time yet he receives far too few calls on this issue.

One final point..... one of the biggest areas of disagreement is how to mount the window sections. the overlap is part of this, the outer coming and protection is a second area of concern and finally the drilling, mounting, and center points of the fasteners is the third. We have yet to see a window installation that addresses all of these issues correctly. Although some techniques are better and more robust than others, the proper method is very labor intensive and many feel it is overkill. The counterpoint is that until a window system survives all manner of random impacts and accident scenarios (and to date none has) , we have obviously, and painfully, not arrived at where we want to be.

I hope this helps.

T2x

[Offshore Ginger]

Over the years i have seen more then one canopy fail and most of them have been on Talons the last one i replaced with a Skater four man was on the old Jelly Belly Gone Again . I have to say that when Rick Bowling barrel rolled the boat he lived to talk about it but......................... the canopy was trashed . I also would like to mention that a Skater canopy is well over an inch thick in fabric alone & took three of us just to lift it on the boat and sure would have been nice if we would have had another hand .

[2TR]

For the record....... nobody has as yet created a canopy that is 100% flawless and, perhaps, no one ever will.

Peter has the best lamination and construction techniques for the basic roof structure. MTI has also made great improvements and has taken this quite seriously since the fatal accident at BIloxi a few years back. However, in many other hulls and almost all older designs the canopies are little more than decorations for a number of reasons:

1. The basic structure of the original, all polycarbonate, units was not strong enough for most side impacts and many frontal shots as well.

2. Even today the hinges and locking mechanisms are MUCH weaker than the canopy structures themselves. In addition any piece of locking or hinge hardware that is above the cockpit surface is subject to ballistic impact from water and debris and will, in too many cases, simply rip off ........releasing the hatch beneath it. The sad fact here is that proper latches and hinges in most cases need to be custom machined and cannot, ( and must not) be ordered from a marine hardware catalogue.

3. Based on the new high speed "snap roll" accident scenarios, the canopy structure must be built to withstand huge impact from any direction including the rear....most cannot.

4. The entire cockpit must be unitized and sealed to disperse pressure blasts from within through a hull or deck breach around the canopy (front deck, rear hatches, sides, bottom). These surfaces are in many cases lighter than the cockpit materials. Failure to address this will subject the canopy to tremendous pressure from within and seriously injure or kill the occupants without any actual penteration of the canopy itself.

5. Even the best builders and glass fabricators do not have a smidgeon of the knowledge required to design a true safety cockpit...... There are complete standards in the Lavin Guidelines (which, to be sure, need updating but are still far and above most current installations) and George Linder, the author and probably the most knowledgeable person in the industry on the subject, is available almost all of the time yet he receives far too few calls on this issue.

One final point..... one of the biggest areas of disagreement is how to mount the window sections. the overlap is part of this, the outer coming and protection is a second area of concern and finally the drilling, mounting, and center points of the fasteners is the third. We have yet to see a window installation that addresses all of these issues correctly. Although some techniques are better and more robust than others, the proper method is very labor intensive and many feel it is overkill. The counterpoint is that until a window system survives all manner of random impacts and accident scenarios (and to date none has) , we have obviously, and painfully, not arrived at where we want to be.

I hope this helps.

T2x

Thanks For all the input but one question. do you see a problem with building a roll cage system from Chromoly or Aluminum tube; maybe even running a couple bars behind the windshield (much like NASCAR)? But now that I'm thinking of the physics behind a roll over bars wont help much if a chunk of glass is ripped off from the side.


I Have been lucky enough to take measurements and pictures of a few canopied race boats over the summer.. a Fountain, D.W., AMT and a Skater. Skater did seem to have the thickest lid by far.

[Ratickle]

Artie, Do you know if Skater currently has a canopy boat in a 28 or 32 Peter would llet Rick take a peek at?

[Steve 1]

At Jaguar we did the first open class boat with Canopy’s ;F-16 's mounted to a hatch with a four point locking mechanism seated on a wide flange our intent was to re-create the strength of the bottom. Over the years Jack added chrome molly roll bar systems in fact when Gifford rolled the 40 he kissed the Boat.

[imco offshore]

This is going to be a fun project, I plan on removing my F16 2 person Canopy and grafting on a 4 person custom canopy so I can use the boat for more that racing and poker runs.

If I'm unhappy with the looks I'll just pull the plug and build an open cockpit much like a Motion or Spec. 30ft cat.

Any words of advice ?? :sifone:

i don.t know if it will help? i have the canapoy mold and a chrome molly roll cage from a boat that jaguar built it was called a cigar and i believe only 1 were built, rick termell might be able to help with some answers you might have. or maybe jack clark..

[imco offshore]

At Jaguar we did the first open class boat with Canopy’s ;F-16 's mounted to a hatch with a four point locking mechanism seated on a wide flange our intent was to re-create the strength of the bottom. Over the years Jack added chrome molly roll bar systems in fact when Gifford rolled the 40 he kissed the Boat.

i think i bought that boat

[Steve 1]

i think i bought that boat

We did this in 86 that boat was the Thriller a 35 Jaguar Cat. The Gifford Boat was a 40 Jaguar Cat.

[phragle]

Thanks For all the input but one question. do you see a problem with building a roll cage system from Chromoly or Aluminum tube; maybe even running a couple bars behind the windshield (much like NASCAR)? But now that I'm thinking of the physics behind a roll over bars wont help much if a chunk of glass is ripped off from the side.


I Have been lucky enough to take measurements and pictures of a few canopied race boats over the summer.. a Fountain, D.W., AMT and a Skater. Skater did seem to have the thickest lid by far.

go cromoly, over the years I have seen all sorts of stuff built or attempted to be built out of alum. One of the biggest problems with alum is putting it together... say you start with 6061-T6, once you bend it then heat it up welding it, it now has the tensile strength of warm dog chit. Unless you assemble the cage, then get it reheattreated as 1 assembly, you will lose a lot of the strength and the way boats bounce around, you have about 2 years before you start chasing cracks in the welds. Unless you have somebody really good doing the welding......

[Offshore Ginger]

Artie, Do you know if Skater currently has a canopy boat in a 28 or 32 Peter would llet Rick take a peek at?R T the only 28's built at Skater with a canopy only come with the f 16 style canopy and the four man canopy is one size fit's all just trimmed to fit . i have two friends who work there one is head of repair and the other is a laminator and i will be talking with them today and ask if there is a canopy boat sitting on the floor to look at . 2TR , just curious have you talked with Pete at Skater about purchasing a four man canopy ?

[2TR]

R T the only 28's built at Skater with a canopy only come with the f 16 style canopy and the four man canopy is one size fit's all just trimmed to fit . i have two friends who work there one is head of repair and the other is a laminator and i will be talking with them today and ask if there is a canopy boat sitting on the floor to look at . 2TR , just curious have you talked with Pete at Skater about purchasing a four man canopy ?

Yes, I have spoke with some guys at Skater and they build a nice lid but I have a cost issue.. I'm not spending more on my Canopy than my boat. If it came down to that I would just open it up to a 5 man pleasure boat configuration than sell it and get a newer DW.


Another question came up this morning while talking with Dave. Weight! I would love to over build a lid making it 1 inch thick of solid material but than my boat would be top heavy! Looks like I need to build a careful balance between weight and safety; with no room for error!

[Wahoo 214]

4. The entire cockpit must be unitized and sealed to disperse pressure blasts from within through a hull or deck breach around the canopy (front deck, rear hatches, sides, bottom). These surfaces are in many cases lighter than the cockpit materials. Failure to address this will subject the canopy to tremendous pressure from within and seriously injure or kill the occupants without any actual penteration of the canopy itself.

When Dave and I stuffed the bat boat, the glass scattered and the force of the water blew the top off from the inside and pushed the firewall back. It was very violent and only 60-70 mph.

If you build a canopy like the Scaren boat, I would bet with a proper layup and window mounting it would be safer than your 10 yr old F16 canopy

[2TR]

This is from Tiger Performance: The lid looks "Bolted" to the boat..
http://tigerperformance.com/Marine%20cat%20img/Pictures/2MANCANOPY.jpg

[Steve 1]

When Dave and I stuffed the bat boat, the glass scattered and the force of the water blew the top off from the inside and pushed the firewall back. It was very violent and only 60-70 mph.

If you build a canopy like the Scaren boat, I would bet with a proper layup and window mounting it would be safer than your 10 yr old F16 canopy

If you cut a hole in the F-16 canopy yes it is trash for how does the loading transfer around that cut opening it is unreinforced soft plastic Lexan with a thin Acrilic laminate and will deform then fail! If it is intact then you have a good chance of staying dry. we rolled One hard in Key west with F-16 canopies that were NOT cut everything looked fine upon close inspection in fact we raced the Saturday race.

[Ratickle]

When Dave and I stuffed the bat boat, the glass scattered and the force of the water blew the top off from the inside and pushed the firewall back. It was very violent and only 60-70 mph.

If you build a canopy like the Scaren boat, I would bet with a proper layup and window mounting it would be safer than your 10 yr old F16 canopy

The glass as in the fiberglass failed first, or the glass as in the plexiglass (lexan?) failed first?

[T2x]

Yes, I have spoke with some guys at Skater and they build a nice lid but I have a cost issue.. I'm not spending more on my Canopy than my boat. If it came down to that I would just open it up to a 5 man pleasure boat configuration than sell it and get a newer DW.

1. How much is your life worth? If the canopy fails your family will not be comforted by the fact that you built it within budget. I know that sounds harsh...but this is a life and death issue...and I have lost too many friends already. If you can't afford a top quality canopy...... don't race.

2.What makes you think that a new DW has a proper canopy?

[T2x]

But now that I'm thinking of the physics behind a roll over bars wont help much if a chunk of glass is ripped off from the side.

Bingo................. CF/Tri-AX is more than adequate to build the canopy at a reasonable weight.... Heck, that's what the boat bottom is made out of.
Sticking a chrome moly frame inside a less than durable canopy and windows is a recipe for disaster.

T2x

[phragle]

This is from Tiger Performance: The lid looks "Bolted" to the boat..
http://tigerperformance.com/Marine%20cat%20img/Pictures/2MANCANOPY.jpg



those windows are huge!!!!! so is the hatch... big holes are not strong.

[2TR]

1. How much is your life worth? If the canopy fails your family will not be comforted by the fact that you built it within budget. I know that sounds harsh...but this is a life and death issue...and I have lost too many friends already. If you can't afford a top quality canopy...... don't race.

2.What makes you think that a new DW has a proper canopy?


Not harsh at all, but in the big picture if I built the canopy as strong as possible I would be a 1000lbs over weight ; were is the line drawn?

When I say budget; I mean I'm not spending 15k plus on a lid, the boats not worth it to me (AS IN I WONT RACE THIS BOAT).

The DW i have seen close up look and feel very strong compared to the AMT i have seen. I felt like the weight of my body would cause a lid failure while looking at an AMT lid a little while back.

[Steve 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibJ3aXrvaCs



Now imagine if someone cut it open!

[2TR]

http://www.procatmarine.com/Photos/2008/10/17/Big_0f961fb33ba64b11859cc79016fb28be.JPG

:huh:

[Offshore Ginger]

The glass as in the fiberglass failed first, or the glass as in the plexiglass (lexan?) failed first?Dave and i talked about this before and i think the conclusion of that in his opinion the Plexiglass failed first .

[Offshore Ginger]

those windows are huge!!!!! so is the hatch... big holes are not strong. I agree ,big holes are not strong and i would not have that canopy stuck up my A$$ , reminds me of a Talon canopy .

[Offshore Ginger]

When Dave and I stuffed the bat boat, the glass scattered and the force of the water blew the top off from the inside and pushed the firewall back. It was very violent and only 60-70 mph.

If you build a canopy like the Scaren boat, I would bet with a proper layup and window mounting it would be safer than your 10 yr old F16 canopy I remember the old CARLOS N CHARLIES X-TREAM had an F16 canopy that Jack C , got killed in and the reason being is jack made modfications to the canopy because he was such a big man and had claustrophobia .

[Ratickle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibJ3aXrvaCs



Now imagine if someone cut it open!

Does anyone have more specifics of that test?

[Steve 1]

Does anyone have more specifics of that test?

http://www.f-111.net/articles/Birdstrikes.htm

[Ratickle]

So it was a frozen, then thawed, chicken at 900mph?????

[Steve 1]

So it was a frozen, then thawed, chicken at 900mph?????

Yes there all kind of crazy stories but I also heard that from Ron Jones when we were buying the texstar stuff from him.

[phragle]

while impressive..it is not representative of what a boat needs in a canopy, unless Gieco or aquamania happen to hit the errant seagull. On a boat your not talking about a small object with little mass hitting a small area. You have a 10k boat traveling 150+ mph impacting water (basically in a solid state at that speed) Dropping the boat off a 15 story building upside down would be a much more relavent test... If you only doing 100..you only need a 10 story building... but thats just my perspective.

[MikeyFIN]

Stop doing this.......:sifone:

Why ???

That´s normal with a Cat when you go fast enough to find the limit.
http://offshoreracing.se/EM_2009_IMG_6772.jpg
http://offshoreracing.se/EM_2009_IMG_6781.jpg
http://offshoreracing.se/EM_2009_IMG_6897.jpg

* this is normal racing for us :)

[MikeyFIN]

Here´s some ideas...
http://www.ioc-tr.net/en/info_boat_manifacturers.asp

[Ratickle]

Why ???



That was the picture Sharkey got when Rick destroyed the lower unit of one of his Mercs by landing hard sideways at the Harrison race this year. So I thought it would be a good idea to stop destroying lowers......

I'm not sure the boat had much, if any, forward momentum that pic.....

[Wahoo 214]

The glass as in the fiberglass failed first, or the glass as in the plexiglass (lexan?) failed first?

The Polycarbonate shattered and then the water blew the top off.

[Ratickle]

The Polycarbonate shattered and then the water blew the top off.

Thanks. You wouldn't think that would happen in a stuff with the design of that canopy on the Batboats.

[Wahoo 214]

I remember actually seeing the windshield turning brown and then poping. The next thing I remenber is sitting in the boat with water up to my waist looking up at the Helo and thinking I shouldn't be able to see the helo! Then Dave woke up from his nap and we restarted and still took 3rd! We were only about 100 yards from the checkered flag.

[T2x]

those windows are huge!!!!! so is the hatch... big holes are not strong.

Agreed. That is very old technology......

[T2x]

Thanks. You wouldn't think that would happen in a stuff with the design of that canopy on the Batboats.

Water pressure has little respect for the fact that a designer is called a "genius". :p

[T2x]

I remember the old CARLOS N CHARLIES X-TREAM had an F16 canopy that Jack C , got killed in and the reason being is jack made modfications to the canopy because he was such a big man and had claustrophobia .

As I recall he removed the hatch entirely because he didn't like the feeling of being closed in.

[T2x]

Yes there all kind of crazy stories but I also heard that from Ron Jones when we were buying the texstar stuff from him.


That is the standard Milspec test as demanded by the government. Texstar still uses that cannon.

THe reality is the canopies will flex acceptably under almost all scenarios. the problem is when the impact is up against a sheer point....or a metal support.... the canopy has no where to flex and it tears (sort of like being put into a "Break"....... another case for no internal roll cage on a traditional f-16 canopy.

T2x

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

As I recall he removed the hatch entirely because he didn't like the feeling of being closed in.

Yes, it was open on top. Like those bungies were really going to hold anything anyway. I recall a big part of the failure was it came loose from the deck.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Those internal roll bars on the seat two seaters behind the window is just a bad band aid anyway.

[T2x]

Why ???

That´s normal with a Cat when you go fast enough to find the limit.
http://offshoreracing.se/EM_2009_IMG_6772.jpg
http://offshoreracing.se/EM_2009_IMG_6781.jpg
http://offshoreracing.se/EM_2009_IMG_6897.jpg

* this is normal racing for us :)


While the F-16 design is fine for this style of boat....the speed is much lower...and the impact dynamics much lighter than on a full sized cat. Champ boats have small, almost tear away canopies that are fine because the boats are so light that they "bounce' off the water's surface in most cases. When they do "stuff" the deceleration is a much bigger problem on the driver's body than the water intrusion.

T2x

[Ratickle]

Since you're on and paying attention. Wouldn't an end-grain balsa core, new high-tech glass, laminate be stronger in a canopy (and lighter) than just layers of glass to a certain thickness? Or am I all washed up here????

[Steve 1]

Since you're on and paying attention. Wouldn't an end-grain balsa core, new high-tech glass, laminate be stronger in a canopy (and lighter) than just layers of glass to a certain thickness? Or am I all washed up here????



Solid glass has no stiffness and is self destructive ,Balsa is self defeating as well in many cases, Material choice for a structure that resists failure should revolve around materials that resist failure themselves..

[Ratickle]

I know this sounds stupid, but, when I raced and ran record RC boats. The strongest, and most flexible, program we came up with was carbon/kevlar weave glass, balsa cored, epoxy, vacuum bagged. In a crash they would destroy other boats, in a blowover approaching 100mph no big issues. And they were extremely light. I have a 54" Vee in the garage now that is less than three pounds with everything but motor. Stringers were built the same way.

[T2x]

Solid glass has no stiffness and is self destructive ,Balsa is self defeating as well in many cases, Material choice for a structure that resists failure should revolve around materials that resist failure themselves..


My opinion is that a good sandwich of various materials can and should do the job...my reference to CF/Tri-ax was as part of a sandwich laminate not alone....similar to a boat's bottom construction.

[Steve 1]

My opinion is that a good sandwich of various materials can and should do the job...my reference to CF/Tri-ax was as part of a sandwich laminate not alone....similar to a boat's bottom construction.

Exactly how it should be done.

[Ratickle]

So what core if not balsa?

[Steve 1]

I know this sounds stupid, but, when I raced and ran record RC boats. The strongest, and most flexible, program we came up with was carbon/kevlar weave glass, balsa cored, epoxy, vacuum bagged. In a crash they would destroy other boats, in a blowover approaching 100mph no big issues. And they were extremely light. I have a 54" Vee in the garage now that is less than three pounds with everything but motor. Stringers were built the same way.

Yes but the Ocean is a game changer the lightest boat I have built to date is 488 Kg 36' x 9' Cat with tanks.ready for nuts and bolts, I have an S glass/ Carbon Fabric nowadays and I can do a little better with the newer material.

I have some material testing on You tube.

[Steve 1]

So what core if not balsa?

Airex or Corecell ,Airex in fact Airex is what the UIM wanted in the Pods I have not looked at the new rules yet though.

[Ratickle]

Yes but the Ocean is a game changer the lightest boat I have built to date is 488 Kg 36' x 9' Cat with tanks.ready for nuts and bolts, I have an S glass/ Carbon Fabric nowadays and I can do a little better with the newer material.

I have some material testing on You tube.

1074 lbs....... That is light........

[Steve 1]

Here is some material testing this is old stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRzyw0Jo8Zg

[Dueclaws]

Steve-
When I removed the canopy on my Jag it had carbon and multi-ax cloth.
Rick-
Whose windshield will you use?

[Steve 1]

Steve-
I believe Airex is what you used in the Jags, is that correct?

When I removed the canopy on my Jag it had carbon and multi-ax cloth. (the bottom is double core Airex and the sides single core Airex).

Rick-
Whose windshield will you use?


Yes we used Airex from day one then switched Later to Core Cell when that came into the market.. Jack Clark builds a very Tough Boat and never hurt anyone in one... Best Regards

[Dude! Sweet!]

So is it fair to infer that no canopy is better than a marginal canopy? Seems like those are the two options presented.

[MikeyFIN]

Well in the lower classes where non canopy boats are allowed a lot of competitors feel that way...

[MikeyFIN]

While the F-16 design is fine for this style of boat....the speed is much lower...and the impact dynamics much lighter than on a full sized cat. Champ boats have small, almost tear away canopies that are fine because the boats are so light that they "bounce' off the water's surface in most cases. When they do "stuff" the deceleration is a much bigger problem on the driver's body than the water intrusion.

T2x

Agreed on all counts except that ain´t no F-16 design.
There´s been talks about forcing a mandatory use of a Hans neckbrace.

[Dueclaws]

Steve-
Thanks for the info.
Sent you an email too.
John

[T2x]

So what core if not balsa?

This is an interesting question and deserves more than a simple answer. For a boat bottom that is subjected to tens of thousands of ballistic impacts over its life span I would use balsa and not a foam core since foam will compress over time at a greater rate than balsa and create delaminations similar to those on the JBS hull. I would also never use CF on the OUTER layers of a hull. (Peter uses CF on the inner most layers and to bond the bulkheads to the hull and that's fine). When it comes to canopies I would look for the same thickness as my bottom construction but you can use more CF and foam cores because there are far fewer impact cycles to deal with over the course of the canopy's lifetime.

I also strongly suggest using the THICKEST laminates on the front, rear and side bulkheads for the cockpits, since they tend to be straight and have little impact deflection (yeah I know they are supposed to be canted rearward on the front but that doesn't reduce the large flat area). A perfect cockpit would be molded in a single egg shape (including the top canopy) and laminated as thick as the boats bottom. This would provide excellent deflection and a device could be crafted to allow it to "pop out" in a devasting crash scenario.

Food for thought........

We've been working on and thinking about this for 25 years.

T2x

[Offshore Ginger]

2TR -Just curious and i know this is a stuipd question and most likely i will get reemed for this up the old bun hole but................. i forgot or lost track of the builder of your boat and that is .................................................. ?

[2TR]

2TR -Just curious and i know this is a stuipd question and most likely i will get reemed for this up the old bun hole but................. i forgot or lost track of the builder of your boat and that is .................................................. ?

Lightning Mfg. out of Florida, it's basicly a splash off a Spectre 30. Than Tag and Sparky from Vicious Marine did some bottom changes back in 2005 (? I think)

[Sean H]

You cut into the boat yet?

[Steve 1]

Jaguar has a nice Mold for a Canopy system also.

[Ratickle]

Jaguar has a nice Mold for a Canopy system also.

Anyway to get the dimensions and talk to someone about a price?

[Steve 1]

Anyway to get the dimensions and talk to someone about a price?


PM me with the boat type or cockpit size.

[imco offshore]

Well in the lower classes where non canopy boats are allowed a lot of competitors feel that way...

mikey what do you mean by lower classes ?

[Ratickle]

PM me with the boat type or cockpit size.

I'll get ahold of Rick. I know he said Skater was too much $.

[DAREDEVIL]

mikey what do you mean by lower classes ?

OOOPS, that means bashing ,,,i can tell.LOL:rofl:

[Ratickle]

I know he means slower, not lower....:sifone:

[DAREDEVIL]

I know he means slower, not lower....:sifone:

That FINN .............haha

[Phantom1]

I'm sitting here wearing my Hooters racing T-shirt from I think 1999. My throttleman, Jon Maas, was the crew chief for Joey and Steve, so I was a big fan of your boat. I actually drove it during testing in Reggieville in '99 or 2000 and had a blast. I can't wait to see the transformation....

[DAREDEVIL]

I'm sitting here wearing my Hooters racing T-shirt from I think 1999. My throttleman, Jon Maas, was the crew chief for Joey and Steve, so I was a big fan of your boat. I actually drove it during testing in Reggieville in '99 or 2000 and had a blast. I can't wait to see the transformation....

So your having your own racerparty tonight so to speak ??? LOL

Should of said something. HEHE:sifone:

[2TR]

You cut into the boat yet?

I laid a grid on the complete deck so far thats covered with 12 x 12 squares. I now have straight lines Evey were to help assure I stay in a straight line.

I Went to attack the boat a week ago and my saw died.. maybe thats a good thing. I'm now worried about cutting and not having enough time to finish before spring.

So I Changed plan'; I'm building a replica deck thats actually a table on wheels approx 9ft x 12ft. with the same cures to build the canopy on that. This way is things go wrong I'm not stuck with a un-race-able boat come spring.

I guess you can say, "I Punted"


Steve, PM Sent.

[glassdave]

I laid a grid on the complete deck so far thats covered with 12 x 12 squares. I now have straight lines Evey were to help assure I stay in a straight line.

I Went to attack the boat a week ago and my saw died.. maybe thats a good thing. I'm now worried about cutting and not having enough time to finish before spring.

So I Changed plan'; I'm building a replica deck thats actually a table on wheels approx 9ft x 12ft. with the same cures to build the canopy on that. This way is things go wrong I'm not stuck with a un-race-able boat come spring.

I guess you can say, "I Punted"


Steve, PM Sent.

good idea

[Bilgerat]

Interesting stuff Ricker, I too am working on a canopy of sorts for a lil cat project. And i have to say i understand all the warnings, but here is my experience, I spoke with the Linder guy about the Lavin rules a long time ago, he was to send me a copy of the guidelines, never got em. Basically all i remember was a long story on how i needed to buy this top dollar piece from some specific company. I guess i am with Rick in thinking of alternate methods, Several race boats i have looked at have what i would feel are very thin laminates holding in a iffy piece of plastic to look through, I am sure mine will be stout. I will post some pics as progress moves along, I don't have a Glass Dave here to help me though and its winterize time, so could be awhile.

[DAREDEVIL]

Interesting stuff Ricker, I too am working on a canopy of sorts for a lil cat project. And i have to say i understand all the warnings, but here is my experience, I spoke with the Linder guy about the Lavin rules a long time ago, he was to send me a copy of the guidelines, never got em. Basically all i remember was a long story on how i needed to buy this top dollar piece from some specific company. I guess i am with Rick in thinking of alternate methods, Several race boats i have looked at have what i would feel are very thin laminates holding in a iffy piece of plastic to look through, I am sure mine will be stout. I will post some pics as progress moves along, I don't have a Glass Dave here to help me though and its winterize time, so could be awhile.

Just send it down to Sarasota and Bob Hanson will fix u up !!!!
he knows what he is doing and sofar i never seen anything come appart what he did.
By the way Phantom is right next door and a canopy of a Phantom 39 would actually work perfect.
the window is probably the most expensive like crazy 8K or so.

[Wahoo 214]

Someone needs to come up with a window alternative. $7-10,000 is rediculous. Can a mold be made and the Polycarbonate heated and vacuume formed?

[DAREDEVIL]

Someone needs to come up with a window alternative. $7-10,000 is rediculous. Can a mold be made and the Polycarbonate heated and vacuume formed?

Dean,,,i think its all about saftey. I don't know if i would trusst any home made window ??????

[Ratickle]

Someone needs to come up with a window alternative. $7-10,000 is rediculous. Can a mold be made and the Polycarbonate heated and vacuume formed?

I know they do it for the big aquariums with the rounded corners etc. I would contact an acrylic aquarium manufacturer and discuss the project with them. If you look at the custom installations in public aquariums where the formed piece is holding back thousands of gallons of water, I would have to believe they've done decent research.Like these guys.

http://www.acrylicaquariums.com/

Also, I would also believe Rich and George have as well. I'll see what I can find in your area.

[DAREDEVIL]

I know they do it for the big aquariums with the rounded corners etc. I would contact an acrylic aquarium manufacturer and discuss the project with them. If you look at the custom installations in public aquariums where the formed piece is holding back thousands of gallons of water, I would have to believe they've done decent research.Like these guys.

http://www.acrylicaquariums.com/

Also, I would also believe Rich and George have as well. I'll see what I can find in your area.

If u roll a boat @ 100MPH i think the impact on that window is way more press on a small point then on a aquarium.

WHERE is phara ??? the proffesor ??? LOL

[Ratickle]

Also company's that make protective guards.


http://www.polyfab.biz/shields_guards.htm

[Ratickle]

If u roll a boat @ 100MPH i think the impact on that window is way more press on a small point then on a aquarium.

WHERE is phara ??? the proffesor ??? LOL

No doubt. But the area is a lot less.

[Ratickle]

These guys handle bulletproof plastic sheets. Could call and ask about forming and structural integrity loss during the process.


http://www.ridoutplastics.com/bulresplas.html

[Ratickle]

Rick, did you get the measurements from George on his canopy mold?

[2TR]

Rick, did you get the measurements from George on his canopy mold?

Not yet, but I only contacted him yesterday.

[Ratickle]

Not yet, but I only contacted him yesterday.

I don't mean Steve, I meant George, IMCO dude:sifone:


Post #32 on this thread....

[2TR]

I don't mean Steve, I meant George, IMCO dude:sifone:


Post #32 on this thread....

No, I don't think so.. I have spoken with so many people about this I'm losing track.


I Have spoken with some friends that work in the R&D/Crash department at GM and they have given me a couple pointers, but the problem is with cars (race or street) they have crumple zones, you can't do that with a boat.. It opens up on impact it would allow the people inside to get blasted with water and sink.

Another issue is the angles if you knew for-sure your boat would enter the water at this direction you could build for that, problem is you don't know how your hitting the water.

Like some one posted already, you cant build a perfect canopy.

[Sean H]

No doubt. But the area is a lot less.

No where near the same loads. Some of the loads we have calculated in worst case scenario are in the 15,000-20,000 psi range for a supercat. (Direct hit to the smallest area at about 140 mph).

Remember, static water pressure is cross sectional in nature, it doesn't matter how wide (volume) it is, only depth (elevation). A 1" pipe 40 feet deep will have the same pressure as a lake 40 feet deep. Water pressure increases at 14.7 psi every 33 feet of elevation. It would take a big tank to ever get near a supercat crash at 140.

[Ratickle]

Under which type of requirement Sean?


ACRYLIC Polymethyl Methacrylate;

Trade Names: Acrylite®, Acrysteel®, Implex®, Lucite®, Korad®, Plexiglas®, Polycast®

Specific Gravity:
1.15

Structure:
Amorphous

Bonding:
Excellent - Ultrasonic & Solvent

Machining:
Excellent

Transparency:
Clear

UV Resistance:
Good

Chemical Resistance:
Acids-Good / Alkalies-Excellent / Solvents-Poor.

Water Absorption:
0.30 % @ 24 hr.

Tensile Strength:
9,000 @ 73°F

Hardness:
R-120

Impact:
1.1 ft. lbs./in. { IZOD }

Compression:
14,000 psi (10% Deflection)

Elongation:
3-5% @ 73°F

Flexural Strength:
15,000 psi @ 73°F

Flexural Modulus:
425,000 psi @ 73°F

Melting Point:
212°F / 100°C

Continuous Service Temp in Air (Max)
185°F

Deflection Temp:
187°F @ 66 psi - 170°F @ 264 psi

Coefficient of Expansion:
0.000055

Dielectric Strength
400 Volts/Mil

[Ratickle]

No, I don't think so.. I have spoken with so many people about this I'm losing track.




PM him and have him post the measurements of his mold when he can. Maybe it's close?

[Sean H]

Under which type of requirement Sean?

Compression:
14,000 psi (10% Deflection)


Flexural Strength:
15,000 psi @ 73°F



You see why having the correct windshields is important.

We have run several scenarios of a 10,500 lb boat going 140 with rapid deceleration. The 20k psi is pretty much a direct frontal hit to the canopy with basically a 140-0 deceleration.

[Ratickle]

Not sure how to ask this correctly, so bear with.

Is the increase of impact PSI a logarithmic type increase as speed increases???? Or is it a continual curve?

What is the impact at say 100, (my guesstimate of highest possible in a twin outboard cat).

[DAREDEVIL]

PM him and have him post the measurements of his mold when he can. Maybe it's close?

Will over at Phantom has them sitting there,,,,(the molds) for the 29.9 and 39 !!!!

[Ratickle]

Will over at Phantom has them sitting there,,,,(the molds) for the 29.9 and 39 !!!!

Well, who do we talk to about costs and dimensions????

DOn't just give us half the info......I'll send you half a decal.....:sifone:

[DAREDEVIL]

Not sure how to ask this correctly, so bear with.

Is the increase of impact PSI a logarithmic type increase as speed increases???? Or is it a continual curve?

What is the impact at say 100, (my guesstimate of highest possible in a twin outboard cat).

Its not just the speed ???its also the load how the boat enters the water, weight and all that........!!!!!!!!!!!

I say u need to be shure !!!!!!!! Don't dig your own grave !!!!

As an example ,,look at what happend with Popeyes in KW last year,,,and that was a real window.

[Ratickle]

That's why I ask so many stupid questions.

[DAREDEVIL]

That's why I ask so many stupid questions.

And i thought its just your nature ....LOL:rofl::kiss:

[Wahoo 214]

Scott, I didn't think the strenght of poly carbonate is deterimed by who bends it over a mold. Why would a 3/8" of poly formed by Shields be stronger than that same poly formed by me and Rick with a pizza oven and some beers? I'm serious why couldn't you make a mold off an existing window and heat form the 3/8 poly over it?

[DAREDEVIL]

Scott, I didn't think the strenght of poly carbonate is deterimed by who bends it over a mold. Why would a 3/8" of poly formed by Shields be stronger than that same poly formed by me and Rick with a pizza oven and some beers? I'm serious why couldn't you make a mold off an existing window and heat form the 3/8 poly over it?

I think if u do it yourself u would actually waste alot more $ then buying one,,,remember u still need to l@@k thru it after your done.

Also i thought they where alot thicker then 3/8 ???

Not shure. would be my answer. Just seams like alot of R&D before u really make it work.

Will Smith ( phantom) tried it on a fisherman window,,with like 1/4 inch and he wasted 1 week 3 sheets and ened up buyng one !!!!! LOL
( don't tell him u heard it from me ) hehehehe

[Sean H]

Triumph, the ones that DW and Mystic use, are produced in an Autoclave.

[Ratickle]

Scott, I didn't think the strenght of poly carbonate is deterimed by who bends it over a mold. Why would a 3/8" of poly formed by Shields be stronger than that same poly formed by me and Rick with a pizza oven and some beers? I'm serious why couldn't you make a mold off an existing window and heat form the 3/8 poly over it?

I remember reading somewhere that it took strength out of the product to heat and form it. But it was like 20% or something. So, if the thickness was overkilled by 20%, all should be good.

I'm still looking for that article.

[Ratickle]

Triumph, the ones that DW and Mystic use, are produced in an Autoclave.

Had an autoclave at the next to last company I ran. I know where I may be able to get use of one though.

Dean, any investment casting companies close to you. They should have one.

[Wahoo 214]

Just thinking out loud, because these things are soooo expensive. An autoclave would be the perfect way of doing it.

[Sean H]

Just thinking out loud, because these things are soooo expensive. An autoclave would be the perfect way of doing it.

If you have the time, access to an autoclave, quality tooling and some patience, you probably could do it. Although, I would think you probably would use a couple of pieces getting the process correct, and that in itself isn't cheap.


and the 1" thick ones are closer to 20k than 10k.

[Ratickle]

Well, finally found what I was looking for as a start. Doesn't sound all that hard. But, I'll keep looking until I can find someone who is setup to do it in the vicinity, at a reasonable cost.

In the meantime, print it out and read it......:)



http://www.altumax.com/literature/pdf/135.pdf

[Steve 1]

Careful on the Plexi I would use nothing but Polycarbonate it comes up to 4 inches thick But 1.5" would be a good start with a smaller panel area.

[Bilgerat]

None of those windshields in a SVL or CO that i have seen are any where near 1.5" thick, also in Fountain and MTI, sean H mentioned a company i havent heard of, so i am completely unfamiliar with them and have never seen one. Also the support structure to the glass on many i have seen is so thin I cant imagine it would hold in anything, the Polycarbonate probably wouldn't fail but the flange would let it fold right in on you.

[Steve 1]

None of those windshields in a SVL or CO that i have seen are any where near 1.5" thick, also in Fountain and MTI, sean H mentioned a company i havent heard of, so i am completely unfamiliar with them and have never seen one. Also the support structure to the glass on many i have seen is so thin I cant imagine it would hold in anything, the Polycarbonate probably wouldn't fail but the flange would let it fold right in on you.

The flange who's fault is that? as for thin glazing at 200 MPH Like wearing a cheap crash helmet.. do not really care or give a crap what anyone is doing. I CAN figure the forces and allow for them. A happy customer is a customer that is alive!! I saw a friend get Killed right in front of me from a canopy failure and the thought that flashed through my mind was how would I feel If that was one of my Boats VERY SOBERING the short answer is that would never ever happen!!

[Sean H]

None of those windshields in a SVL or CO that i have seen are any where near 1.5" thick, also in Fountain and MTI, sean H mentioned a company i havent heard of, so i am completely unfamiliar with them and have never seen one. Also the support structure to the glass on many i have seen is so thin I cant imagine it would hold in anything, the Polycarbonate probably wouldn't fail but the flange would let it fold right in on you.

this is a 1" triumph windscreen, also note the lack of fasteners to fail.

[Ratickle]

this is a 1" triumph windscreen, also note the lack of fasteners to fail.

How are those held in place?

And 1" thick you mean?

[Sean H]

yes, 1" thick.

The windscreen is epoxied and bagged into place, then the mask is placed on top and also fully epoxed/bagged into place. The windscreen is sandwiched into the layup of the canopy.

The flanges are between 6-8 inches all around the window opening(s). So if you see a 8" window height, that means the actual windscreen is about 24".

[Rik]

this is a 1" triumph windscreen, also note the lack of fasteners to fail.

Is that what Jimmy Lee is calling it?

How did you arrive at your pressure figures? I calculate 140 mph water pressure to be 289.69 lbs per inch* are you merely multiplying this by the surface area?

Reference 200 mph water pressure is 591.21 lbs per inch*

100 mph water pressure is 147.80 lbs per inch*

[Ratickle]

Is that what Jimmy Lee is calling it?

How did you arrive at your pressure figures? I calculate 140 mph water pressure to be 289.69 lbs per inch* are you merely multiplying this by the surface area?

Reference 200 mph water pressure is 591.21 lbs per inch*

100 mph water pressure is 147.80 lbs per inch*

Wouldn't you have to calculate in the weight of the boat, plus the speed of the impact?

[Sean H]

Is that what Jimmy Lee is calling it?

How did you arrive at your pressure figures? I calculate 140 mph water pressure to be 289.69 lbs per inch* are you merely multiplying this by the surface area?

Reference 200 mph water pressure is 591.21 lbs per inch*

100 mph water pressure is 147.80 lbs per inch*

Those numbers are impact loads off the cfd and fea programs. The big numbers were obviously when very small areas took the full impact of an 140-0 scenario.

[AIR TIME]

knot Right, Gerry just bought a windshield ,I think its 1'' thick in front has a curve on both ends and the sides are either 1/2'' or 3/4. its a 3 piece set. the co builds them 4 pieces mostly. and the cost was 4 to 5 grand and made out of the real f16 canopys which I think is the polycarbonate. I can tell him about this post and he can give you the companys phone#. they do them for race boats two. now he is looking at whats the best way to install it . this is a non lid skater46 6 seater. art

[Rik]

Wouldn't you have to calculate in the weight of the boat, plus the speed of the impact?

?? The water being struck would be the same as the water being pressured so a 90 degree hit would equal the water pressure then I would guess spread this over the area exposed and you come up with an effective area of pressure. The deflection angle less than 90 degrees would lessen this force and the shape itself has to play a role in it.

The weight of the boat (mass) * Pressure would be an even higher # assuming mass of 10K * pressure of 289 = 1,890,000. Would you or the boat survive this if that was accurate?????

So I was thinking back to the Area * Pressure. A toothpick is hard to break if short enough. A long board is easy to break as we enter into the realm of "Leverage" so a lot of things have to be taken into account.

Imagine a piece of plastic one square inch in size secured into the boat. How much force would it need to see in an impact to fail vs the same material with an area of 1300 in*???

Also, I've noticed our Southern Hemisphere and Middle Eastern racers use a flat panel in a semi V shape for a front shield and in the States we use a compound radius shape. Which is actually better for the occupants on board?

[Rik]

knot Right, Gerry just bought a windshield ,I think its 1'' thick in front has a curve on both ends and the sides are either 1/2'' or 3/4. its a 3 piece set. the co builds them 4 pieces mostly. and the cost was 4 to 5 grand and made out of the real f16 canopys which I think is the polycarbonate. I can tell him about this post and he can give you the companys phone#. they do them for race boats two. now he is looking at whats the best way to install it . this is a non lid skater46 6 seater. art

Gerry got a 3/4" piece of acrylic from Shields taken off the 55' MTI molds.

[Ratickle]

Here's the guide for forming Polycarbonate 's. Almost identical to Plexiglass, including temps.


http://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/plastic_technical_data_sheets/lexan_polycarbonate_sheet_processing_guide.pdf

[Steve 1]

Here's the guide for forming Polycarbonate 's. Almost identical to Plexiglass, including temps.


http://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/plastic_technical_data_sheets/lexan_polycarbonate_sheet_processing_guide.pdf



I used to use the big powder coating ovens at the plant, word of caution is needed so that a Fresnel effect is not had by the "creative bending"

[Ratickle]

Rick, how thick is your F16 canopy you currently have?

It looks as if a 4 x 8 sheet of 1/2" thick polycarbonate is less than $600 pretty much everywhere.

Is 1/2" thick enough for a 100mph boat if mounted correctly???? And I know there is no way to say for absolute positive in all instances? But, I believe that is thicker than the canopy windows on the Batboats.


http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=68&product_id=10718&cookie%5Ftest=1

[Ratickle]

On these styles, blown up from Rick's pictures, they are using flat windows in a similar canopy to most designs. Any reason against it in these lighter, slower, smaller designs?

[Bilgerat]

That flat slight v is where i am going with my design, however much more support and i would assume thickness, than what i see here. these plastic pieces look to be secured only an couple inches all the way around and riddled with holes, I wouldn't suspect that will work.

[Steve 1]

Rick, how thick is your F16 canopy you currently have?

It looks as if a 4 x 8 sheet of 1/2" thick polycarbonate is less than $600 pretty much everywhere.

Is 1/2" thick enough for a 100mph boat if mounted correctly???? And I know there is no way to say for absolute positive in all instances? But, I believe that is thicker than the canopy windows on the Batboats.


http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=68&product_id=10718&cookie%5Ftest=1

Actual load @150 PSI with NO safety factor easy one figure your open area and apply the loading with a factor of what your life is worth.

[Ratickle]

Actual load @150 PSI with NO safety factor easy one figure your open area and apply the loading with a factor of what your life is worth.

Well, today not as much as before this great recession.....:sifone:

[Steve 1]

Well, today not as much as before this great recession.....:sifone:

LOL same here!

[Ratickle]

Clear Polycarbonate

MECHANICAL PROPERTIES:
Specific gravity (ASTM D 792) : 1.20
Tensile strength, Ultimate (ASTM D 638) : 9,000 p.s.i.
Elongation at break (ASTM D 638) : 130%
Tensile modulus (ASTM D 638) : 3.1x10~5 p.s.i.
Rockwell hardness (ASTM D 785) : R118
Impact strength (73° F) (ASTM D 256) (notched) : 17.0 ft-lb/inch
Flexural strength (ASTM D 790) : 14,200 p.s.i.
Flexural modulus (ASTM D 790) : 3.4x 10~5 p.s.i.
Wear factor against steel 40 psi 50fpm : 2500x10~10
Coefficient of friction 40psi 50fpm : 0.38 Dynamic

[Steve 1]

Elongation is worth noting.

[Ratickle]

I keep finding it cheaper and cheaper.

1/2 X 48 X 96 Polycarbonate Sheet-MOTOR FREIGHT ONLY
$444.00 $365.20 Sale Price
PC504896

[Steve 1]

It has a strange history, I was talking to a chick a while back and she was Dr Foxes Lab Intern and the story was true ,it came about as a glitch in Polyester research at GE.

[Sean H]

only Dr Schnell and the germans at Bayer beat Dr Fox to it by a week or so...

[2TR]

Rick, how thick is your F16 canopy you currently have?

It looks as if a 4 x 8 sheet of 1/2" thick polycarbonate is less than $600 pretty much everywhere.

Is 1/2" thick enough for a 100mph boat if mounted correctly???? And I know there is no way to say for absolute positive in all instances? But, I believe that is thicker than the canopy windows on the Batboats.


http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=68&product_id=10718&cookie%5Ftest=1


I'm about 1" think, maybe more in the curved part of the canopy.

[Ratickle]

I'm about 1" think, maybe more in the curved part of the canopy.

So far I have not found 1" available by the sheet. However, if the flat panel concept is used, two sheets of 1/2", in theory, should be stronger by a little. I'll keep hunting, and make some calls.

[Ratickle]

Dean, Dave - Do you recall what the thickness was on the poly when you stuffed the Batboat? And did you use the same thickness when you replaced it???

[Sean H]

You probably will want the poly that has a layer of acrylic on at least one side for scratch/finish reasons.

[DAREDEVIL]

only Dr Schnell and the germans at Bayer beat Dr Fox to it by a week or so...

OFCOARSE THE GERMANS ,,,,,WHO ELSE,,,,,THE BEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!:sifone:

[Wahoo 214]

Dean, Dave - Do you recall what the thickness was on the poly when you stuffed the Batboat? And did you use the same thickness when you replaced it???

1/2" but it is mounted with bolts and gommits. The window area is also large.

[Wahoo 214]

yes, 1" thick.

The windscreen is epoxied and bagged into place, then the mask is placed on top and also fully epoxed/bagged into place. The windscreen is sandwiched into the layup of the canopy.

The flanges are between 6-8 inches all around the window opening(s). So if you see a 8" window height, that means the actual windscreen is about 24".

That install is interesting. I was under the impression that Poly is sensitive to chemicals like acetone or MEK.

[Ratickle]

That install is interesting. I was under the impression that Poly is sensitive to chemicals like acetone or MEK.

Those will.

Will damage polycarbonate

Alkali bleaches such as sodium hypochlorite
Acetone
Acrylonitrile
Ammonia
Amyl acetate
Benzene
Bromine
Butyl acetate
Sodium hydroxide
Chloroform
Dimethylformamide
Concentrated hydrochloric acid
Concentrated hydrofluoric acid
Iodine
Methanol
Methyl ethyl ketone
Styrene
Tetrachloroethylene
Toluene
Concentrated sulfuric acid
Xylene
Cyanoacrylate monomers

[Steve 1]

Those will.

Will damage polycarbonate

Alkali bleaches such as sodium hypochlorite
Acetone
Acrylonitrile
Ammonia
Amyl acetate
Benzene
Bromine
Butyl acetate
Sodium hydroxide
Chloroform
Dimethylformamide
Concentrated hydrochloric acid
Concentrated hydrofluoric acid
Iodine
Methanol
Methyl ethyl ketone
Styrene
Tetrachloroethylene
Toluene
Concentrated sulfuric acid
Xylene
Cyanoacrylate monomers


It seems to handle Jet fumes well.

[glassdave]

That install is interesting. I was under the impression that Poly is sensitive to chemicals like acetone or MEK.

Epoxies do not contain those solvents.

[Steve 1]

It glasses in well, I use it for backing plates in some areas.

[Ratickle]

Epoxies do not contain those solvents.


It glasses in well, I use it for backing plates in some areas.

Cool.

Do you protect it by leaving the film on until it is sandwiched in?

[Steve 1]

Cool.

Do you protect it by leaving the film on until it is sandwiched in?

No the little etching that happens never affected the material and its molecules are Chemically "Very friendly" to the styrene based resin systems. we are talking 30-45 minute time periods here.

When it is melted in a solvent (another project that will remain nameless) it gets very warm, a cool demo as the heat energy stored as bonds is released.

[Dueclaws]

Very interesting discussion!
I'd just like to find a replacement windshield for my pleasure boat at an affordable price.

[Sean H]

some were asking about rollcages in canopies... here are a couple quick pics with the phone. interior cage and vertical supports to transfer the interior bars down to the stringers.

[AIR TIME]

Gerry got a 3/4" piece of acrylic from Shields taken off the 55' MTI molds.
yes but its not acrylic, its the polycarbonate and your right on shields Rik there prices were good I quess.:sifone: whats cool is I figured out the angle last year 30degrees when I worked on a mold for Gerry, then we started again with gerrys bro the three of us had it 1/2 done and Gerry found Shields so I made another paper temp and his bro made the curve and sent it in. so we got to figure whats the best way to install it over the winter. art

[Ratickle]

That flat slight v is where i am going with my design, however much more support and i would assume thickness, than what i see here. these plastic pieces look to be secured only an couple inches all the way around and riddled with holes, I wouldn't suspect that will work.

Who do we check with to find out if X-Cat has to use the Lavin requirements like Class 1 ?

[Steve 1]

Who do we check with to find out if X-Cat has to use the Lavin requirements like Class 1 ?

Try in here.

http://www.thewppa.com/En/News_article.asp?ID=79

[Rik]

yes but its not acrylic, its the polycarbonate and your right on shields Rik there prices were good I quess.:sifone: whats cool is I figured out the angle last year 30degrees when I worked on a mold for Gerry, then we started again with gerrys bro the three of us had it 1/2 done and Gerry found Shields so I made another paper temp and his bro made the curve and sent it in. so we got to figure whats the best way to install it over the winter. art

Art, it's Acrylic. 3/4" exact same as the 55' MTI.

[KnotRight]

Art, it's Acrylic. 3/4" exact same as the 55' MTI.

Dont tell Pete, I would not want him to stop taking my agonizing phone calls.

Tell your friend Brad offers no support what so ever on installation.