Serious Project : Off with my Canopy !!!!!

[Sean H]

I was hoping you had.

What is the lightest, strong enough, way to build it for a absolute 120mph top speed boat. His is already heavy as is.

Carbon Kevlar weave with epoxy and a moly frame? Or ??????

Remember that the last two canopy failures were under 120 mph. The Popeyes 368 Skater canopy failed in KW under 120 and Jimmy's 388 Skater failed at 80.

Trying to put a speed number on a design is hard to do with these things. The best thing is to do is try to avoid the known issues that others have already found.

 

[2TR]

I wouldn't put a steel cage in an outboard boat, a well designed canopy/cockpit liner system with an integral glass cage should be more than enough.

As nice as a carbon/kevlar canopy/cockpit sounds, that would end up costing probably more than what you want to put in that boat. Building an adequate bulkhead/liner system, canopy, windscreens, latch hardware, escape hatch, etc will be expensive enough.

I'm not going to say what boat; But was on a AMT 30 a few years back and the canopy glass was thin and very flexible under my weight, and not even my full weight.

 

[Steve 1]

A Buzzi Canopy failed and Killed a friend of mine and those are well done the boat flew and landed sideways and it was ripped from the boat in pieces..

 

[Ratickle]

Remember that the last two canopy failures were under 120 mph. The Popeyes 368 Skater canopy failed in KW under 120 and Jimmy's 388 Skater failed at 80.

Trying to put a speed number on a design is hard to do with these things. The best thing is to do is try to avoid the known issues that others have already found.

I'll PM Rich. He, and his research with the Lavin group, should have some great insight.

And thanks for the reminder about speed, that's what I was trying to ask.

 

[Ratickle]

I wouldn't put a steel cage in an outboard boat, a well designed canopy/cockpit liner system with an integral glass cage should be more than enough.

As nice as a carbon/kevlar canopy/cockpit sounds, that would end up costing probably more than what you want to put in that boat. Building an adequate bulkhead/liner system, canopy, windscreens, latch hardware, escape hatch, etc will be expensive enough.

His boat already has two escape hatches, so some of that should be covered.

And money's no object to Rick, he'll photoshop more....

 

[phragle]

only 100.... next time your rolling down the freeway at 70~75, look at a bridge support, the speed you approach it, and when you get to it, imagine completely stopping in a 10th of a second. 100 is so commonplace anymore that it doesn't seem that fast, but if you stop and think about it........ thats how strong you need to build it.

 

[T2x]

For the record....... nobody has as yet created a canopy that is 100% flawless and, perhaps, no one ever will.

Peter has the best lamination and construction techniques for the basic roof structure. MTI has also made great improvements and has taken this quite seriously since the fatal accident at BIloxi a few years back. However, in many other hulls and almost all older designs the canopies are little more than decorations for a number of reasons:

1. The basic structure of the original, all polycarbonate, units was not strong enough for most side impacts and many frontal shots as well.

2. Even today the hinges and locking mechanisms are MUCH weaker than the canopy structures themselves. In addition any piece of locking or hinge hardware that is above the cockpit surface is subject to ballistic impact from water and debris and will, in too many cases, simply rip off ........releasing the hatch beneath it. The sad fact here is that proper latches and hinges in most cases need to be custom machined and cannot, ( and must not) be ordered from a marine hardware catalogue.

3. Based on the new high speed "snap roll" accident scenarios, the canopy structure must be built to withstand huge impact from any direction including the rear....most cannot.

4. The entire cockpit must be unitized and sealed to disperse pressure blasts from within through a hull or deck breach around the canopy (front deck, rear hatches, sides, bottom). These surfaces are in many cases lighter than the cockpit materials. Failure to address this will subject the canopy to tremendous pressure from within and seriously injure or kill the occupants without any actual penteration of the canopy itself.

5. Even the best builders and glass fabricators do not have a smidgeon of the knowledge required to design a true safety cockpit...... There are complete standards in the Lavin Guidelines (which, to be sure, need updating but are still far and above most current installations) and George Linder, the author and probably the most knowledgeable person in the industry on the subject, is available almost all of the time yet he receives far too few calls on this issue.

One final point..... one of the biggest areas of disagreement is how to mount the window sections. the overlap is part of this, the outer coming and protection is a second area of concern and finally the drilling, mounting, and center points of the fasteners is the third. We have yet to see a window installation that addresses all of these issues correctly. Although some techniques are better and more robust than others, the proper method is very labor intensive and many feel it is overkill. The counterpoint is that until a window system survives all manner of random impacts and accident scenarios (and to date none has) , we have obviously, and painfully, not arrived at where we want to be.

I hope this helps.

T2x

 

[Offshore Ginger]

Over the years i have seen more then one canopy fail and most of them have been on Talons the last one i replaced with a Skater four man was on the old Jelly Belly Gone Again . I have to say that when Rick Bowling barrel rolled the boat he lived to talk about it but......................... the canopy was trashed . I also would like to mention that a Skater canopy is well over an inch thick in fabric alone & took three of us just to lift it on the boat and sure would have been nice if we would have had another hand .

 

[2TR]

For the record....... nobody has as yet created a canopy that is 100% flawless and, perhaps, no one ever will.

Peter has the best lamination and construction techniques for the basic roof structure. MTI has also made great improvements and has taken this quite seriously since the fatal accident at BIloxi a few years back. However, in many other hulls and almost all older designs the canopies are little more than decorations for a number of reasons:

1. The basic structure of the original, all polycarbonate, units was not strong enough for most side impacts and many frontal shots as well.

2. Even today the hinges and locking mechanisms are MUCH weaker than the canopy structures themselves. In addition any piece of locking or hinge hardware that is above the cockpit surface is subject to ballistic impact from water and debris and will, in too many cases, simply rip off ........releasing the hatch beneath it. The sad fact here is that proper latches and hinges in most cases need to be custom machined and cannot, ( and must not) be ordered from a marine hardware catalogue.

3. Based on the new high speed "snap roll" accident scenarios, the canopy structure must be built to withstand huge impact from any direction including the rear....most cannot.

4. The entire cockpit must be unitized and sealed to disperse pressure blasts from within through a hull or deck breach around the canopy (front deck, rear hatches, sides, bottom). These surfaces are in many cases lighter than the cockpit materials. Failure to address this will subject the canopy to tremendous pressure from within and seriously injure or kill the occupants without any actual penteration of the canopy itself.

5. Even the best builders and glass fabricators do not have a smidgeon of the knowledge required to design a true safety cockpit...... There are complete standards in the Lavin Guidelines (which, to be sure, need updating but are still far and above most current installations) and George Linder, the author and probably the most knowledgeable person in the industry on the subject, is available almost all of the time yet he receives far too few calls on this issue.

One final point..... one of the biggest areas of disagreement is how to mount the window sections. the overlap is part of this, the outer coming and protection is a second area of concern and finally the drilling, mounting, and center points of the fasteners is the third. We have yet to see a window installation that addresses all of these issues correctly. Although some techniques are better and more robust than others, the proper method is very labor intensive and many feel it is overkill. The counterpoint is that until a window system survives all manner of random impacts and accident scenarios (and to date none has) , we have obviously, and painfully, not arrived at where we want to be.

I hope this helps.

T2x

Thanks For all the input but one question. do you see a problem with building a roll cage system from Chromoly or Aluminum tube; maybe even running a couple bars behind the windshield (much like NASCAR)? But now that I'm thinking of the physics behind a roll over bars wont help much if a chunk of glass is ripped off from the side.


I Have been lucky enough to take measurements and pictures of a few canopied race boats over the summer.. a Fountain, D.W., AMT and a Skater. Skater did seem to have the thickest lid by far.

 

[Ratickle]

Artie, Do you know if Skater currently has a canopy boat in a 28 or 32 Peter would llet Rick take a peek at?

 

[Steve 1]

At Jaguar we did the first open class boat with Canopy’s ;F-16 's mounted to a hatch with a four point locking mechanism seated on a wide flange our intent was to re-create the strength of the bottom. Over the years Jack added chrome molly roll bar systems in fact when Gifford rolled the 40 he kissed the Boat.

 

[imco offshore]

This is going to be a fun project, I plan on removing my F16 2 person Canopy and grafting on a 4 person custom canopy so I can use the boat for more that racing and poker runs.

If I'm unhappy with the looks I'll just pull the plug and build an open cockpit much like a Motion or Spec. 30ft cat.

Any words of advice ?? :sifone:

i don.t know if it will help? i have the canapoy mold and a chrome molly roll cage from a boat that jaguar built it was called a cigar and i believe only 1 were built, rick termell might be able to help with some answers you might have. or maybe jack clark..

 

[imco offshore]

At Jaguar we did the first open class boat with Canopy’s ;F-16 's mounted to a hatch with a four point locking mechanism seated on a wide flange our intent was to re-create the strength of the bottom. Over the years Jack added chrome molly roll bar systems in fact when Gifford rolled the 40 he kissed the Boat.

i think i bought that boat

 

[Steve 1]

i think i bought that boat

We did this in 86 that boat was the Thriller a 35 Jaguar Cat. The Gifford Boat was a 40 Jaguar Cat.

 

[phragle]

Thanks For all the input but one question. do you see a problem with building a roll cage system from Chromoly or Aluminum tube; maybe even running a couple bars behind the windshield (much like NASCAR)? But now that I'm thinking of the physics behind a roll over bars wont help much if a chunk of glass is ripped off from the side.


I Have been lucky enough to take measurements and pictures of a few canopied race boats over the summer.. a Fountain, D.W., AMT and a Skater. Skater did seem to have the thickest lid by far.

go cromoly, over the years I have seen all sorts of stuff built or attempted to be built out of alum. One of the biggest problems with alum is putting it together... say you start with 6061-T6, once you bend it then heat it up welding it, it now has the tensile strength of warm dog chit. Unless you assemble the cage, then get it reheattreated as 1 assembly, you will lose a lot of the strength and the way boats bounce around, you have about 2 years before you start chasing cracks in the welds. Unless you have somebody really good doing the welding......

 

[Offshore Ginger]

Artie, Do you know if Skater currently has a canopy boat in a 28 or 32 Peter would llet Rick take a peek at?

R T the only 28's built at Skater with a canopy only come with the f 16 style canopy and the four man canopy is one size fit's all just trimmed to fit . i have two friends who work there one is head of repair and the other is a laminator and i will be talking with them today and ask if there is a canopy boat sitting on the floor to look at . 2TR , just curious have you talked with Pete at Skater about purchasing a four man canopy ?

 

[2TR]

R T the only 28's built at Skater with a canopy only come with the f 16 style canopy and the four man canopy is one size fit's all just trimmed to fit . i have two friends who work there one is head of repair and the other is a laminator and i will be talking with them today and ask if there is a canopy boat sitting on the floor to look at . 2TR , just curious have you talked with Pete at Skater about purchasing a four man canopy ?

Yes, I have spoke with some guys at Skater and they build a nice lid but I have a cost issue.. I'm not spending more on my Canopy than my boat. If it came down to that I would just open it up to a 5 man pleasure boat configuration than sell it and get a newer DW.


Another question came up this morning while talking with Dave. Weight! I would love to over build a lid making it 1 inch thick of solid material but than my boat would be top heavy! Looks like I need to build a careful balance between weight and safety; with no room for error!

 

[Wahoo 214]

4. The entire cockpit must be unitized and sealed to disperse pressure blasts from within through a hull or deck breach around the canopy (front deck, rear hatches, sides, bottom). These surfaces are in many cases lighter than the cockpit materials. Failure to address this will subject the canopy to tremendous pressure from within and seriously injure or kill the occupants without any actual penteration of the canopy itself.

When Dave and I stuffed the bat boat, the glass scattered and the force of the water blew the top off from the inside and pushed the firewall back. It was very violent and only 60-70 mph.

If you build a canopy like the Scaren boat, I would bet with a proper layup and window mounting it would be safer than your 10 yr old F16 canopy

 

[2TR]

This is from Tiger Performance: The lid looks "Bolted" to the boat..

 

[Steve 1]

When Dave and I stuffed the bat boat, the glass scattered and the force of the water blew the top off from the inside and pushed the firewall back. It was very violent and only 60-70 mph.

If you build a canopy like the Scaren boat, I would bet with a proper layup and window mounting it would be safer than your 10 yr old F16 canopy

If you cut a hole in the F-16 canopy yes it is trash for how does the loading transfer around that cut opening it is unreinforced soft plastic Lexan with a thin Acrilic laminate and will deform then fail! If it is intact then you have a good chance of staying dry. we rolled One hard in Key west with F-16 canopies that were NOT cut everything looked fine upon close inspection in fact we raced the Saturday race.