Boats.com story on "Whatever Happened to Offshore Powerboat Racing?"

[Dunbar 104]

What org is really promoting racing? Is is more of just get a boat here and we will make you happy. I'm bored with it all. I want to race not show off. Yet we reward showing off. Alway talking about how great X-cat is in Europe. In the USA do the same with SVL. $50,000 prize money, and make the hatches bigger so some of the ego can get in. I really don't know what the SVl class could do more to get boats out. You can race a SVL on what most teams bar tabs are. So where is the problem?

[Ratickle]

What org is really promoting racing? Is is more of just get a boat here and we will make you happy. I'm bored with it all. I want to race not show off. Yet we reward showing off. Alway talking about how great X-cat is in Europe. In the USA do the same with SVL. $50,000 prize money, and make the hatches bigger so some of the ego can get in. I really don't know what the SVl class could do more to get boats out. You can race a SVL on what most teams bar tabs are. So where is the problem?

X Cat (Stock Outboard), and SVL are the only two classes growing other than the GPS classes. There were more boats in SVL in St Clair this past week than in any class in Key West last year.

[TCEd]

The problem with Matts final determination, there was a time when a race attracted thousands. This weekend, you should have tried to walk around the viewing areas during a race. I have no idea what the number of people watching the race were, but I'd guess over 30,000. And, there were 49 boats there. That's an increase from last year, not a decrease in these tough times.

The main issue to me, every time the sport gets close to "flying". Someone with a determination to make money off it steps in and ruins the growth. The same thing happens in other sports, ie Indy/Formula, IHRA/NHRA, AFL/NFL, World Football League/NFL, NBA/ABA, and on and on......

The difference, it is always close to the bigtime, not quite there yet, when it happens. Sometime review the Unlimiteds and their issues. And then see how they controlled them.....

Look at drag boats, UMI, Class 1, Austrailian Sprint Boats, West Coast River runners, etc.

Like I said, I'll debate it, just needs to be a positive discussion, not a slamming of everything.

How would the sport get 30,000 spectators to view a offshore race at $50 a seat ? I put that price out there since you're discussing/comparing other sports that draw paying fans regularly.
ed

[Ratickle]

How would the sport get 30,000 spectators to view a offshore race at $50 a seat ? I put that price out there since you're discussing/comparing other sports that draw paying fans regularly.
ed

Wouldn't ever happen in my estimation. There will also never be a $3,000,000 first prize purse on the line etc.

I'd love to know the paid gate in Key West though. Had to be a major chunk.....

The vendors in St Clair said there was more sales this year than last. We'll see if that holds true. There were also more boats racing in St Clair this year than last. More boats racing in St Clair this year than last year in Key West. More boats in two of the classes than in any single class in Key West last year, etc.

All I'm trying to say is we seem to be on another up cycle because it was slammed to the bottom again a few years ago and has been shrinking every since. Maybe only until now though, who knows.

There has always been three common denominators in any motorsport, and most other sports, that holds true (I think).

There are no more than three major classes.
Pro Stock, Funny Car, Top Fuel
Sprint Cup, Craftsman Series, Nationwide
etc.

There are supporting classes for an event and bringing new people into the sport.

When it works well, and makes the most headway, there is only one National (or World) organization that has final say.


I put up a list with 30 unique classes. If you look at the boats, it could be cut in half in a second, and almost all boats currently running would still fit. Could you imagine 30 classes at a NASCAR event on the track?

In drags it works, but the top three classes are the ones who get TV etc. And they aren't running at the same time.

By the way. In St Clair two things were obvious to my fan reviewer spys.

1. Cat Can Do was the most popular boat because it was the fastest and loudest. Got cheers every time around.
2. The short course race 1 was more popular than the long course that went out of sight in races 2 and 3.

I don't have the answer, but it is here among the groups involved.

[TCEd]

Raticle,
I admire your love for the sport. Class reduction and unification is a MUST.
There is a funny post in the racing section on how to identify the many different class boat in one race. They discuss using various colors to identify the boats but run out of colors !!!!!!
Can't see the trees because of the forest.
ed

[Ratickle]

Raticle,
I admire your love for the sport. Class reduction and unification is a MUST.
There is a funny post in the racing section on how to identify the many different class boat in one race. They discuss using various colors to identify the boats but run out of colors !!!!!!
Can't see the trees because of the forest.
ed

Mikey started that because of the St Clair feedback. At least people are still talking. I watch and listen to SVL. They seem to have it going on.......

And they all help make the other boats competitive, not start a new class if they lose.

The directors of the orgs should gather them all up, put them in a room, and just listen and take notes.....

Super Vee is also looking good from that standpoint, and Outboard Cat.

And if I missed some others, let me know.

[Ms PatriYacht]

How would the sport get 30,000 spectators to view a offshore race at $50 a seat ? I put that price out there since you're discussing/comparing other sports that draw paying fans regularly.
ed

Finally someone's back to the topic of the article. offshore boat racing because it has to be held on a large body of water where much of the shore line cannot be roped off will never yield high $$$ from ticket sales. So the owner of the race organization or the promoter has a lot of leg work to do even just to break even. They have to generate a lot of money from sponsors, create other activities around the race that will generate both revenue and attract a crowd, and sometimes they even have to charge the race teams. Then you must PRAY for good weather, since people have not bought tickets if the weather sucks and you have a lot of rain most of the crowd will stay home. So the vendors and sponsors loose out big time and most likely don't show up the next year. This will NEVER change, and it has nothing to do with the racers, the classes, or if the organization is for profit or for pleasure.

[Sean H]

X Cat (Stock Outboard), and SVL are the only two classes growing other than the GPS classes. There were more boats in SVL in St Clair this past week than in any class in Key West last year.

Let's not confuse SVL's and bat boats, I am sure it was fun and exciting to be out there, but if the SCL guys ran with the SC, it doesn't make the SC field bigger. While playing with the numbers may make us all feel better, the truth is there was an average of 3 offshore boats per class in St Clair (and that goes for all race sites/orgs, St Clair was just the most recent). That pretty much means that only a noted few when home without some sort of trophy or flag. That is the real reason that offshore racing is in the state it is.

Until the class count gets reduced, we will continue to have these issues. Imagine 15 classes in 3 races with 45 boats, and now imagine 6 classes in 3 races with 45 boats. Which one would you rather watch?

I used to care which classes ran, but anymore, I don't even care what classes still exist, it just has to be reduced.

Ironically, I think every org has the rule in their book that there has to be 5 boats to have a class. Imagine if they actually enforced that.

[Ratickle]

Let's not confuse SVL's and bat boats, I am sure it was fun and exciting to be out there, but if the SCL guys ran with the SC, it doesn't make the SC field bigger. While playing with the numbers may make us all feel better, the truth is there was an average of 3 offshore boats per class in St Clair (and that goes for all race sites/orgs, St Clair was just the most recent). That pretty much means that only a noted few when home without some sort of trophy or flag. That is the real reason that offshore racing is in the state it is.

Until the class count gets reduced, we will continue to have these issues. Imagine 15 classes in 3 races with 45 boats, and now imagine 6 classes in 3 races with 45 boats. Which one would you rather watch?

I used to care which classes ran, but anymore, I don't even care what classes still exist, it just has to be reduced.

Ironically, I think every org has the rule in their book that there has to be 5 boats to have a class. Imagine if they actually enforced that.

Still think we could have run with them with the bigger prop (Our average lap speed was just under 8 mph slower than Randy's). And Chris's Red one is just as fast. Probably would have been down a couple mph though still, Saturdays water would have made it very interesting. There were still 5 SVL contenders without the two Bat Boats.

I am also saying there are too many classes. That's my number one point above. And what group is the biggest offender????? (I'm not answering that one).

As for the 5 boat rule, there would have been 4 classes in St Clair that qualified, plus two more with 4 boats. (3.66 boats per race average, 4 even if you CatCanDo out of it's only class....).

The entire year so far, there would have only been two times in SBI where there were 5 boats in a class Both at Sarasota, and once again, SVL was there for one of the two, so without them, only one time all year were there 5boats in a race in SBI.

Obviously 45 boats, 6 classes. But I'm not sure 6 is enough. What would your 6 be if it was your decision? And where would all of the boats currently campaigning fit in those?

Unless my notes, and program, are wrong. There were just as many SVL's in St Clair as the largest class in Key West last year. I show P4 was the largest with 5 boats.

[Sean H]

well, I am not too concerned which 6 classes it is (or combo of classes). The easiest thing would take the 6 biggest (or ones that could be combined easily to make the 6 biggest). Me personally; Extreme, SuperCat, SuperVee, Cat Outboard, SVL and an outlaw class. Make the outlaw class your 75 mph gps class, if you want to run faster, you have SVL, you want to run faster, Cat Outboard, faster yet? SuperVee, then SuperCat and Extreme. Throw some rules into those classes to allow some different setups and options, but pretty much be spec classes. Like I said though, I would take any 6 classes at this point.

Do we need both 750/850? Do we need turbine/extreme cat/extreme vee? Do we need a class 5/6 with a 5 mph difference? Does SBI need 2 different extreme vee?

Feelings are going to be hurt. Not everybody can or will be satisfied. It must be done though. Doing it now, when boat counts are down, schedules are changing, orgs are changing names is probably the best time. Announce it early, let teams prepare for changes if necessary.

If you showed up at a camping world east/west race with a turbo v6 car do you think they would let you race? should they?

As far as comparing race sites, they are all broken. It's all the same thing. 1 boat, 2 boats, 3 boats, 3.66 boats.... its pretty much all the same. It's says much about our sport when we are excited about 5 boats in a class. I also don't look at the best 3 sites, lets look at the other 15-20 sites. What do those sites draw (boats and fans)? If those sites fail, the other 3 won't matter either.

[Ratickle]

I would have more than 6 classes. (Kinda by top speed) 10 total. Maybe down to 9 because one of these needs to match Overseas Class 1 identically.

Extreme - Anything goes

Extreme Vee - Anything V goes

Super Cat 750 or 850 (Not Both) - Twins

Super Cat 525 - Twins

Super Vee 525 - Twins

Lite Vee 525 - Single

Cat Outboard - Stock ? (Same as Overseas)

P- 1 - 110 mph

P- 2 - 90 mph

P- 3 - 70 mph - 30' max, single engine or twin outboards, V only

[WHEELMAN]

Less classes with some real offshore racing will be good for the sport. Years ago I remember going to races or even watching Phil Lewis NNRT tapes were cats vs vees in the same class. Ocean racing levels the playing field. We need to build few less strong classes. We can't have extreme cat & extreme turbine. We can't have three different super v classes. Also can't have 750/850. I agree with Sean H and that is were we should start IMO. Also this is a sport not a "show".

[Ratickle]

Here are P1 classes by the way.


Evolution class boats are modified production and/or prototype crafts with a fully closed canopy and safety cell.

Evolution boats are more powerful and possess bigger engines, allowing for speeds of over 100mph. Measuring between 36-43 ft, the boats have a maximum power-to-weight of 1hp per 3.5kg.

The pilot and throttlepersons must be seated and harnessed in the Evolution class.

SuperSport class boats are production boats, usually safe and affordable for consumer use.

Measuring between 33-42ft, SuperSport boats are blessed with typical pleasure navigation characteristics, such as an open-top canopy and multi-speed gearbox.

Carrying a power-to-weight ratio of 1hp per 4.5kg, the SuperSport boats are less powerful and built with smaller engines.

SuperSport boats are limited to race-speeds of 85mph for safety reasons with pilots and throttlepersons allowed to stand or sit and not allowed to be harnessed.

During a race, the SuperSport boats are allowed to exceed the speed limit but only for a maximum of ten seconds. Rules state that exceeding this 10 second limit will incur a 60 second time penalty for a first offence with a further 90 seconds for every following penalty incurred.

A maximum of five penalties are allowed before a boat is disqualified with the same punishment given for those boats that exceed the speed limit for 30 seconds or more.

[Sean H]

I would have more than 6 classes. (Kinda by top speed) 10 total. Maybe down to 9 because one of these needs to match Overseas Class 1 identically.

Extreme - Anything goes

Extreme Vee - Anything V goes

Super Cat 750 or 850 (Not Both) - Twins

Super Cat 525 - Twins

Super Vee 525 - Twins

Lite Vee 525 - Single

Cat Outboard - Stock ? (Same as Overseas)

P- 1 - 110 mph

P- 2 - 90 mph

P- 3 - 70 mph - 30' max, single engine or twin outboards, V only

you could run a supercat (750 or 850) in class 1 if you wanted to... it doesn't go the other way as well with rudder setups and v-12, but its not far off. The merc class 1 engine is basically a 850 with a higher rpm limit. I don't think anybody here wants to run the budget to compete in a Class 1 style boat right now.

I would be good with 9 or 10 classes instead of 15 right now.

[TCEd]

With the number of classes you guys are discussing it sure sounds like SCCA club racing and there's nothing wrong with that concept but it's not a money maker.
Regarding long distance offshore racing............ you'll never get a large spectator base that pays the bill and prize money. It's oldschool like playing football outdoors. Nice to discuss, nice to watch in videos, nice to discuss but wil not draw a paying spectator base at $50 a seat.

ed
( more than a spectator)

[Ratickle]

With the number of classes you guys are discussing it sure sounds like SCCA club racing and there's nothing wrong with that concept but it's not a money maker.
Regarding long distance offshore racing............ you'll never get a large spectator base that pays the bill and prize money. It's oldschool like playing football outdoors. Nice to discuss, nice to watch in videos, nice to discuss but wil not draw a paying spectator base at $50 a seat.

ed
( more than a spectator)

It's a drop from 15 to 9 or 10. That's a huge reduction in the number of classes being run currently.

[dockrocker]

I can't get this to post correctly. But, this is my opinion of problem number 1. If you see any errors, let me know and I'll change/correct them. It's tough to read all the rule books. And there are still a couple of blanks.


Class Org. (s) Hull Size Hull Style Engine Size Engine Qty. Max Speed

1 Extreme/Turbine OPA Any Any Any Any na
2 Unlimited Offshore OSS 40' to 50' Any Turbine Any na
3 Turbine SBI 38' to 50' Cat Turbine Twin na
4 Superboat Unlimited/Cat Ext. SBI/OSS 40' to 50' Cat Any Any na
5 Superboat V Unlimited Ext. SBI 40' to 50' V Any Any na
6 Superboat V Unlimited SBI 40' to 50' V Any Any na
7 Supercharged Cat OSS 37' 2" to 46' Cat Twin na
8 Cat OSS 38' to 40' Cat Twin na
9 Cat Light OSS/OPA 35' to 38' Cat 525's Twin na
10 Vee OSS 33' to 42' V Twin na
11 Super Vee OSS 36' to 43' V Twin na
12 Supercat 850 SBI & OPA 36' to 46' Cat 565 Twin na
13 Supercat 750 SBI & OPA 36' to 46' Cat 510 Twin na
14 Supercat SBI 36' to 40' Cat Twin na
15 Super Vee SBI/OPA 34' to 40' V 525's Twin na
16 Super V Limited/Vee Light SBI/OSS 26' to 32' V 525 Single na
17 Superboat Stock/Cat Outbd SBI/OSS 28' to 32' Cat Any Outbd Twin na
18 P1 SBI Any Any Any Any 117 mph
19 Class 100 OPA Any Any Any Any 115 mph
20 P2 SBI Any Any Any Any 105 mph
21 Pro Am 1 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 95 mph
22 Class 300/P3 OPA/SBI Any Any Any Any 95 mph
23 Pro Am 2 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 85 mph
24 P4 SBI Any Any Any Any 85 mph
25 Class 400 OPA Any V Any Any 85 mph
26 Pro Am 3 OSS 21' to Any Any Any Any 75 mph
27 Class 500 OPA 0' to 30' V Any Any 75 mph
28 P 5 SBI 0' to 30' Any Any Single 75 mph
29 Class 600 OPA 0' to 26' V Any Any 70 mph
30 Pro Am 4 OSS 24' to 30' Any Any Single In/ Twin Out 65 mph

Go to the head of the class!!!! I like racing and have been into offshore boats for 10 years, and I still can't make heads or tails of it half the time!

[Ratickle]

Go to the head of the class!!!! I like racing and have been into offshore boats for 10 years, and I still can't make heads or tails of it half the time!

It's kinda of weird that only seven of those meet he requirements in more than one Organization.

[Slandrew]

Viewing is a good point I attended Bahama race once had great seats but elected to go on huge party boat better view better pictures!Also was on local radio station so on shore fans could hear exact status of race!Money is a factor but some fans whould pay and station boat in center of races just a thought

[Mike A.]

as much as some didn't like him, Michael Allweiss did a good job of bringing the sport closer to the fans.

Whadya mean? Who didn't like me?