New Handgun Advice Needed

[Chris]

40 S&W is probably the most common caliber in law enforcement today. It bridges beautifully between the relatively anemic 9mm and the larger-framed and heavier recoiling 45ACP. It originated after the FBI commissioned a number of 10mm weapons, then found out that their "smaller" (women) agents had difficulty with the recoil- essentially that of a 357 magnum. Smith came up with the 10mm short- the 40 S&W.

You can find many easily-concealable 40 cal handguns on the market today.

As far as home defense, the one thing the shotgun has that little else can match is the intimidation factor. You REALLY don't want to shoot anyone. It's very expensive and time-consuming even if you prevail and don't have to go to prison. A pistol? You have to maybe shoot a couple holes through your own walls to get someone's attention. Who needs that. The shotgun? Everyone knows what that sound means.

[Hilltop Kyle]

Is that a Sigma model? If so the price seems a little high. Seems like they are around $300 new? I could be wrong on that though. Never really cared for the S&W Sigmas. Seemed very entry level to me. If you're looking for a polymer frame auto, the S&W MP is nice and the Springfield XD is popular too.

Yes it is a sigma. It retails for $480 and on gunbroker they all seem to be around $350-400.

[Hilltop Kyle]

40 S&W is probably the most common caliber in law enforcement today. It bridges beautifully between the relatively anemic 9mm and the larger-framed and heavier recoiling 45ACP. It originated after the FBI commissioned a number of 10mm weapons, then found out that their "smaller" (women) agents had difficulty with the recoil- essentially that of a 357 magnum. Smith came up with the 10mm short- the 40 S&W.

You can find many easily-concealable 40 cal handguns on the market today.

As far as home defense, the one thing the shotgun has that little else can match is the intimidation factor. You REALLY don't want to shoot anyone. It's very expensive and time-consuming even if you prevail and don't have to go to prison. A pistol? You have to maybe shoot a couple holes through your own walls to get someone's attention. Who needs that. The shotgun? Everyone knows what that sound means.

Thanks for all your help! I've learned a lot from you.

[jmeng]

In that case $300 doesn't seem bad.

[gerritm]

Check out a few forums on the S&W Sigma semi's, not very good quality but OK for a once in a while shooter. I looked at them. Sells for around $349-$399 at Academy Sports. Based on the Glock design, lots of plastic and I do mean cheap plastic.

I have the HK USP Tactical in .40 S&W and love the way it handles and shoots. Definetly a large framed gun. Very accurate and virtually maintenance free other than cleaning. A lot more expensive, somewhere in the $750-$$1000 range.
Do your research on whatever you like, just like a boat, you get what you pay for.

[Audiofn]

It depends what you're goingto do with it. You mention "knock down power" so I assume you're thinking about personal defense. If so, an autoloading pistol is a poor choice for a first handgun. While they're more reliable that they used to be, unless you possess a significant proficiency at clearing drills, in the dark, while being accosted or fired upon, that failure-to-feed might cost you your life. A revolver is a much better choice. 38 special with a +P load is the ballistic equivalent to a .40 S&W and a .357 Magnum is going to have a distinct margin over the 45ACP. Plus, a pistol you don't have with you isn't really of much use. If you're going to carry, the HK45/USP is a large, cumbersome piece designed to be a military sidearm, not a conceald carry weapon. If it's not comfortable, it will likely get left at home.

I tell EVERYONE this same thing about a first handgun. Make the commitment to become proficient in its use. Take some lessons. Most CCW instructors offer advanced training. Then shoot often. If you're not shooting at least 3 or 4 times a month, you have no business carrying a weapon.

The only thing I would add to this is that revolvers tend to be more accurate as the barrel does not move in the gun when it is cycling. You will also get more shots on target with the smaller rounds. So when people talk about "stopping power" they often times don't think about how many shots they can get on target with the larger caliber stuff. Stopping power would be very low on my criteria for a carry gun. You hit some one with a 22 and they are going to be bumming. Most important would be that it would allow me to cycle all the rounds (for me that means a revolver). Second would be accuracy, if you can not hit what you need to hit then what is the point. My carry gun of choice is a S&W Mini frame .38 with the hammer delete option. I had a guy custom make me 12 rounds for carry purposes. I can toss it in my pocket and no one is the wiser.

[MattBMiller]

I had a guy custom make me 12 rounds for carry purposes.

Be careful with hand loads for self defense. I read an article a while back about a guy that shot and killed a guy with hand loads in self defense. Some laywer twisted that into pre-meditated murder because he felt that off the shelf ammo was insufficient. I need to find that story again...

[Chris]

The only thing I would add to this is that revolvers tend to be more accurate as the barrel does not move in the gun when it is cycling.

Any SiG, Glock or HK is going to be out-of-the-box more accurate that 99% of casual shooters will ever be able to utilize. An off the shelf HK Tac is way more accurate than I'll ever be able to exploit. When you're talking about shooting under pressure where one of the participants isn't going to make it and at common close-combat ranges (inside an average home) , accuracy is pretty far down. I want the most reliable piece I can get and I want proficiency in using it in all positions (how many of you have spent time shooting left-handed? How many have done a one-handed clearing drill?) The tool is only as useful as the person employing it.

Be careful with hand loads for self defense. I read an article a while back about a guy that shot and killed a guy with hand loads in self defense. Some laywer twisted that into pre-meditated murder because he felt that off the shelf ammo was insufficient. I need to find that story again...

It was actually a police officer. There have been many cases of an over-zealous, idealistic prosecutor pushing an issue like this. You have to ask yourself- if they'll prosecute a cop, what would stop them from prosecuting you?

There have been many self-defense prosecutions based on the shooter's predilection to commit the act. If you present circumstances that lead authorities to believe you may have been overly-anticipating or inviting an opportunity to shoot someone, the right guy might just take that and run with it. Just remember, someday you might have to explain yourself to twelve people that couldn't duck jury duty. If you have serious latent Rambo fantasies, expect them to be paraded in front of this bunch. If you posted 3 years ago on an internet forum "...I'd kill 'em all" or "...make sure to drag them back inside", expect that to be blown up to poster size and placed on an easel for you to explain.

[Ratickle]

I am not an expert but, My caliber of preference is the .357 Magnum for a handgun. The main reason, you can practice all you want to with .38 ammo and if you really believe you are going into a dangerous situation, and want to use your CCW, you can load it with a varity of loads that have plenty of power.

The only thing I haven't found is a hammerless version with real good reviews. I may not be looking in all the right places though.

Home defense, 12 guage pump.

Here's a link to some reviews about carry weapons.

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_SizeMatters.htm

[jmeng]

Keep in mind that full power 357 mag loads in a small frame revolver (S&W J Frame, Ruger SP101, etc) are no fun to shoot. I've shot exactly one cylinder full of 357 mags in my wifes SP101 and it'll be a while before I do it again. Plus you lose a lot of velocity with the short barrel. In the small, light revolvers you're better off sticking with .38 +P loads IMO.

[Trim'd Up]

I would definately look at the XD's. I recently bought an XDm in 45 acp and love it. I actually shoot it a little better than my USP40. It is acurate, comfortable, and reasonably priced. Cabela's has the regular XD's on sale for $499 right now.

[Ratickle]

Keep in mind that full power 357 mag loads in a small frame revolver (S&W J Frame, Ruger SP101, etc) are no fun to shoot. I've shot exactly one cylinder full of 357 mags in my wifes SP101 and it'll be a while before I do it again. Plus you lose a lot of velocity with the short barrel. In the small, light revolvers you're better off sticking with .38 +P loads IMO.

That's why it makes a nice gun. You can shoot all you want with .38's but can still have major stopping power if you felt it was really warranted. Usually, it's not. But......

[Hilltop Kyle]

Well...Looks like I'm going to have an extensive pistol collection by the time I'm done.

Seriously though, I appreciate all the input! You guys are a big help. I have just about decided to buy the S&W 9mm just as a "keep in the truck for occasional use". I've got the .38 Revolver that I will continue to keep by the bed and use for Concealed Carry. (I'll keep the 12ga close by too.) And I think you've convinced me to look for a .40 cal (Something?) to use as a primary shooter and carry when I'm in the woods or on the Harley. Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

[ImaPoser]

Keep in mind that full power 357 mag loads in a small frame revolver (S&W J Frame, Ruger SP101, etc) are no fun to shoot. I've shot exactly one cylinder full of 357 mags in my wifes SP101 and it'll be a while before I do it again. Plus you lose a lot of velocity with the short barrel. In the small, light revolvers you're better off sticking with .38 +P loads IMO.

It must be a personal choice thing. My SP101 is my carry gun of choice, and I shoot at the range with it at least every other week. I practice with .357 rounds since that's what I would be using in a real world situation, and typically shoot 50-100 rounds each time out. For some reason, I am more accurate shooting it with .357 loads than .38.

[Slick02]

Kimber Ultra II 45 with a High Noon inside the pants holster.

[X-Rated30]

I shot a friend's XD subcompact in 40 cal last friday. I shoot a USP FS in 40 cal normally. I was TOTALLY impressed. Nice gun.

[Audiofn]

Be careful with hand loads for self defense. I read an article a while back about a guy that shot and killed a guy with hand loads in self defense. Some laywer twisted that into pre-meditated murder because he felt that off the shelf ammo was insufficient. I need to find that story again...

It all depends on what you are doing with them I beleive. If you put a tip on them that is not allowed then you are screwed if you just increase/decrease velocity then you are fine. There are lots of things you can do to adjust the way a gun shoots with ammo. For example my Benelli does not like the stuff we have to shoot at our range.

Always fun to watch Tom Knapp shoot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uHt4AwYb4

[jmeng]

It must be a personal choice thing. My SP101 is my carry gun of choice, and I shoot at the range with it at least every other week. I practice with .357 rounds since that's what I would be using in a real world situation, and typically shoot 50-100 rounds each time out. For some reason, I am more accurate shooting it with .357 loads than .38.

I guess I'm just a recoil wuss then. I can shoot full bore .357 loads all day in my S&W 686 with a 6" barrel and a .45 doesn't bother me at all. But magnum loads in that SP101 were brutal to me. That was with that original small, hard grips. Probably will be better now that I swapped it out with a Hogue.

[Chris]

I guess I'm just a recoil wuss then. .

Not necessarily. There are some people that have recoil sensitivity. I've seen very large, very tough guys not be able to shoot moderately-recoiling weapons. Also, and especially with a handgun, if it doesn't fit well, you're not going to shoot it well and sometimes that poor fit can translate to exaggerate drecoil effect.

If you compared hands with 50 adult men this afternoon, you'd see a dramatic variation in size and shape. But I'm not aware of anyone that makes multiple gripframe sizes in their handgun line.

Can you imagine pro baseball with one standard-sized bat?

[itilldo]

Kimber Ultra II 45 with a High Noon inside the pants holster.

seen my buddies Ultra in SS version last Saturday...I gotta get one of them