Supercharging an Ilmor

[Jassman]

I have a bunch of ideas....

send me an email..pm.. or call me during the week. Thanks Jeff

[baja27]

So Jeff is this a top secret or is someone been kicking the idea around

[Jassman]

So Jeff is this a top secret or is someone been kicking the idea around

This should be on another thread as to not derail this great Ilmor thread..even though the first 38 possibly will have a stagged 725's Ilmors vs the 700 Mercs in them when the 38 is finished and ready for the public. A few other boats are being worked on and built....then the 38. Jeff

[Coolerman]

This should be on another thread as to not derail this great Ilmor thread..even though the first 38 possibly will have a stagged 725's Ilmors vs the 700 Mercs in them when the 38 is finished and ready for the public. A few other boats are being worked on and built....then the 38. Jeff

Best of you luck to you jeff in your new venture!

I think you should start a new thread on it and keep us updated!

[CobraMarty]

I know an old thread from 5+ years ago, But has there been any more news along this front?

Everyone always talks about high hp numbers, but what I see the Ilmor needing is low boost and additional 150hp and more importantly 150 torque.
Only really need 3-4 pounds boost. So will say why bother with so little boost. Reasons are many. Longevity, reliability, and all that is really needed to add 150hp/tq.

3-4 pounds of boost will add 20-25% more power. 725hp + 20-25% becomes 900hp very easily. This is just where the need is. This can be done with a Paxton system similar to the Ram SRT-10.
Fueling can be done with a 'piggyback' and additional injectors. Boost timing retard can be done with manipulating the crank and cam sensor, only need to retard the timing about 3-4 degrees at most.

This will have no effect on cruise efficiency or any N/A manners.
Just thinking out loud.
There are many Ilmors out there several years old and owners ready for an upgrade. Maybe now is better timing.

[Ratickle]

The last time I chatted with Ian about Ilmor adding a turbocharger or supercharger, he said they couldn't get the blocks to live under boost. I don't know if they are still working on the program, doubtful I think. But, I'll try to find out.

I do know the rumors are out there quite heavy that Dodge is bringing out a Supercharged Viper in 2016.

Maybe that will be the push for a Marine version....

[CobraMarty]

I spoke with the Ilmor guys about this in Miami. The new block is good to about 900 hp.

The Block, heads, and intake are the same as the car. Its everything else inside and out, that we spec for our V10's. The Henn's do make big power and the duty cycle for their use in auto's is vastly different than what we're up against in the marine world. Could we make huge power? Absolutely, but it must last more than a few hrs.

Don’t Supercharge Your Ilmor Engine
Created: Wednesday, 24 February 2010 21:00
Written by Matt Trulio

A recent discussion thread on seriousoffshore.com, a leading high-performance powerboating site with compelling message boards, caught my attention. The thread revolved around supercharging an Ilmor Marine (a division of Ilmor Engineering) 725 V-10 engine. Had it been done, could it be done, should it be done?

From the start, I saw an economic problem. Ilmor started production of its 725-hp, Dodge Viper-based marine high-performance engine in June of 2009. That means every one of those engines is still under the Plymouth, Mich., manufacturer’s one-year warranty. Modifying the engine in any way would void that warranty—and the cost of that warranty is built into the price of the engine.

But what about adding a supercharger to an Ilmor 725 after the warranty expires? Still not a good idea, according to Paul Ray, the president of Ilmor engineering, because extensive internal changes would have to be made to the engine to make it feasible.

“Ilmor engines are designed specifically as normally (naturally) aspirated engines,” Ray wrote in an email to me yesterday afternoon. “That is to say we maximize the performance of the engine by optimizing all of the components within the engine to give the best performance possible without supercharging.”

Ray explained that Ilmor took this approach for several reasons. First, the company wanted to differentiate itself from other high-performance marine engine manufacturers. Second, as racing-engineering outfit, Ilmor wanted to create a product that was “lighter than anything else that existed at the same power level.” Third, the builder wanted to produce an engine that was more fuel-efficient than other engines with the same horsepower rating.

“Supercharging the MV-10 engine can be achieved but not without changing the specification of the engine,” Ray noted. “To improve the performance we use a high static-compression ratio (10.3:1), which is too high for all but the most trivial of boost levels. Boosting therefore, would need a rebuild of the engine to lower the compression ratio—at minimum."

The last time I chatted with Ian about Ilmor adding a turbocharger or supercharger, he said they couldn't get the blocks to live under boost.

It is these 'trivial of boost levels' that I am talking about. Just 3-4 pounds of boost, 20-25% hp/tq gains, MV-10 725 to 850-900hp and 800-850tq.

[Ratickle]

You may be right, it might live. But even with only 3 to 4 pounds of boost, by starting with a compression ratio of 10.3 to 1, you are still looking at 93 octane minimum.

Have you heard the rumors about the Viper being Supercharged next year? If so, that is where your answer will be.

Also, although in theory every time you add 14.7 pounds of boost (one atmosphere) you double horsepower, it never works out that way. You usually need to modify cams and intakes at a minimum to support the addition of boost. Allpar's supercharged Viper engine package (Stage 3) supposedly has 900 HP at 6PSI of boost. Maybe call them to see how it's doing? Might also be a spot to start.

[CobraMarty]

You may be right, it might live. But even with only 3 to 4 pounds of boost, by starting with a compression ratio of 10.3 to 1, you are still looking at 93 octane minimum.

Stock MV-10 650 and MV-10 725 require 91 octane anyway.

Have you heard the rumors about the Viper being Supercharged next year? If so, that is where your answer will be.

Yep, so cool.
http://horsepowerkings.com/reports-a...update-coming/

Allpar's supercharged Viper engine package (Stage 3) supposedly has 900 HP at 6PSI of boost. Maybe call them to see how it's doing? Might also be a spot to start.

But they are not starting with 650 or 725 hp like the Ilmor's. The 725 has had a mild cam and port work done. Helpful but not necessary for forced induction.
Vipers '07-'12 had 600hp, '13 had 640hp and '15 had 645.

Allpar has been busy with the Viper. And they took 640hp and 6psi and made 900hp with a 4.3L twinscrew SC. 640hp x 1+6/14.7 = 901hp. Yep it works.
http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php...ed-viper-27306

[Ratickle]

What compression ration does the 640 start at compared with the Ilmor?

[CobraMarty]

The 2013 Viper 640hp is 10.2:1.

[Ratickle]

You could probably get away with 93 octane as long as the boost was really low.

I wonder if Allpar knows if anyone has used it on a boat?

[CobraMarty]

Here is some interesting information I found while reading about the History of Ilmor and the V10.

2004- line of V-10 engines since entering the market in 2004

2007, we sold about 200 engine units, which puts us at about 10 percent of the market at that time
We were looking at building more powerful engines in the 900-hp range, and to do that you have to look at supercharging. Then the EPA and CARB came along with their new rules, and we had to turn our focus to emissions compliance. Now that we have all our engines in compliance, we can go back and start looking at bigger power again, but it’s hard to justify that in this economy.

In early 2009, the company unveiled its Indy stern-drive, the first non-Mercury, production built stern-drive rated to handle more than 700 hp.

2009 were upped to 650- and 725-hp versions.

2009- Ilmor had to utilize its engineering expertise to create an entirely new generation of MV-10 marine products. (GEN3 to GEN4 blocks I suspect) Emissions requirements established by the CARB, EPA, and the EU meant that all high-performance marine engines had to meet tough new exhaust emissions standards. The MV10-650 and the MV10-725, along with state-of-the-art Ilmor designed electronics were created to not only meet but exceed every requirement of the new regulations. Ilmor’s MV10-725 is the highest output emissions certified gasoline engine commercially available in Europe.

2009- Ilmor also unveiled the all-new INDY high-performance stern-drive in 2009. The INDY drive, two and a half years in the making, was designed to compliment not only all of the current Ilmor high-performance marine engines but to handle the power and torque of several other engines aimed for introduction at a later time


Ilmor has the answers. They have looked at superchargers and 900hp. Now if they would just share their knowledge.

[Ratickle]

Ian has officially retired, but I'll see if maybe Jamie knows anything from when he powered the 34 Saber.

It runs really strong!!

[jdoss]

Never gonna happen. they've tried many options but always had a failure of some sort.
If they were selling 100's of units per year they would pursue it but only selling hand fulls.
they had gen 3 motors pkgs there last i knew. I love the pkg, i wish they would build an 850 ish.
I would put it in the next boat in a heart beat. They have something in works last i talked to joe,
he wouldn't tell me, but im thinking its a new drive pkg to compete w alpha or bravo.

[CobraMarty]

Never gonna happen. they've tried many options but always had a failure of some sort.

What sort of failures did they have?

[Uncle Dave]

The pre 725 block needs significant modification to the oiling system and much beyond 800HP the #5 rod begins to starve for oil.

Once corrected the engine can take ludicrous levels of power.

Alexi at boostpower can build a blown Ilmor that will stay together.

UD

[jdoss]

Failures were all over. they would address the failure then do there testing again (which if i remember right was 100 hrs 0-100%) and they would find another problem before the 100hrs. you have to remember that these motors are not flying off the shelves. if they were, im sure they would have had a 800+ hp engine out there. Currently they are building a s*** load of the small stuff. Ive herd boostpower is doing things with them but never seen or herd of the results and longevity. Alexi is talented and smart im sure for the right price he figured it out.

[CobraMarty]

Yeah the GEN3 motors seemed to have the problems with the #5 crank bearing.
Hopefully fixed with the Gen4 725 engine.

[Ratickle]

I was hoping to get down to PRI this week to make some inquiries, but some stuff came up so I can't make it. (Helping rig a turbine Skater today).

I may be able to have my credentials transferred. Anybody live close and want to head over tomorrow if I can?