Twin Engine GPS or Tech Class Discussion

[F1-00 Racing]

Paul,

I wouldnt put much thought into it. We still have a place to run.

Boats are disappearing not because of class restructure, but due to the economy and yes I'll go political for one second, P1 with there 3 SVL boats and OSS holding on to its 1 race site with 3 SVL's, 2 SS, and 2 P4 boats, I mean come on...... LET THEM DIE IN PEACE. (P1 will survive with their single outboard deal and racing the hydro sites)OPA has weathered the post Haggin era and stayed afloat with consistent counts above 25 and when a nuclear holocaust happens there will be JC and cockroaches left. The racers are the reason for all this idiotic dilution of this sport. Sponsors saw the instability of Indy when they had the split into 2 associations, they look at us and see 4????? wow what a joke we have made of our sport.

Heres my proposal(take it with a grain of salt)

OPA gets the bracket classes(its what got them to where they are today)
SBI gets the spec("Boat Racing of the Rich and Famous" is their credo)

Now you have 2 separate entities that dont step on each others toes and could bring our sport to where we all want it to be.

Paul, its not just about Jim and I as examples, we still can duke it out up north, its the whole picture and in this economy, we need to trim the fat and not necessarily agree with one another, but streamline things and become strong. KW is like a one night stand:lots of boats and everyone has a blast, but over the long haul(the full season with paying towns), how do we make it work?

[Ratickle]

....but over the long haul(the full season with paying towns), how do we make it work?

That's the entire point.....

[F1-00 Racing]

That's the entire point.....

So what are your thoughts on my proposal?

[Ratickle]

I'll call you today, got a couple questions.

The biggest issue I see, the plan includes nothing to make the sport grow across the nation. Think of it as marketing a "New" product, even though it's not (exactly). It should be treated as new so everyone can step outside the current (and past) boxes and think about it. We are competing against things like snowboarding and dragracing for TV time.

Look at it as if someone came up to all of us and said, "I'd like to make this a sport where fans look forward to the excitement of watching the next race, or next TV show."

We talk about what used to work, what didn't work, what went wrong, etc. But, we need to talk about what will bring everything to the front as if it were a new project. It is very good to use history as a measuring device for failures and successes. But one thing I've learned in business, you can spend all your time talking about the problem but then it gives you no time to talk about the solution. (Kind of like politicians, doesn't work).

You talk about the economy costing us boats. Yet, after SBI adjusted the rules last year for SVL, there will be 8 boats in the class in Key West. Why? My opinion is because they have made the rules very close to where they need to be to keep all of the boats competitive for the near future. (My opinion is they still need a maximum RPM rule.) So, a market was created for the class, and the class is back to the numbers of a couple years ago.

Now, figure out all the reasons why and make a spot that cost a similar amount to run for twins. In SVL the rules are (Very rough overview);

509 CuIn maximum - Teched for compliance
9.0 to 1 compression maximum - Teched for compliance
32' maximum in SBI, 30' maximum in all other orgs (again I'd like to see it standardized worldwide like thy've done with the Cat Outboards)
Bravo equivalent drive
Drive height 1/2" below back bottom of keel.
Drive height lowered additionally for parity if required.

That is an extremely short overview. But, it makes the class competitive, reasonably priced (for Offshore boat racing), and the more boats that come, the more exciting it will be. It looks as if there may be 13 teams running next year in SVL. We'll see. But, with these rules (and I hope a maximum RPM rule added), the budget for running a boat over a season becomes somewhat reasonable. And, it makes it difficult for someone with a pot of money to come in and "buy" trophies.

That is the main reason I want to see the maximum RPM rule. Start buzzing the engines over 6000RPM and the guy with the most money will be the guy that can replace engines every couple races instead of every couple seasons. Then all the others will leave. It is less than $600 to add a MyChron plug in jack and recorder system for maximum RPM where the referee reads it after the race just like they currently read GPS for the Sportsman classes.

So, look at the Sportsman Classes in OPA. The Class 6, Class 5, and Class 4 are thriving. Why? Because they are affordable, and the rules have not changed for years. But, why did Class SV fall apart? Rules changed so boats fell out and disappeared, plus modifications were allowed which cost excessive money is my opinion.

Now, SBI changed the GPS speeds for a couple classes. My opinion is they tried to make things better, but the results for the year say it didn't work. One boat ran in 3 out of 6 races in P3, one! None in the other three races. So, all I am trying to do is start a conversation about what it would take to have those classes build back up.

There is a chance P4 will have a dozen boats in Key West. Why?

Best chance for P3 appears to be 3 boats. Why?

I think the racers need to look at these things, talk to their orgs, and make recommendations. This is the time of year to do that.

[Ratickle]

From Steve on the Key West thread.

The top F2's were pushing 95 MPH once the 525's were in with the last Mercury ECM "flash". By the time the circuit made it half a season it was clear that parity was long gone. If you look at the 2003 stats 500 boats in either F1 or F2 did not stand a chance. We made some changes in Sarasota to try and even it out but it became clear we need to go back to an engine less than 500 hp (think the carb 500 output) for safety, parity and cost issues.
Steve

[Ratickle]

I agree the 525 were the beginning of the end for factory class. It was a shame Mercury forced the 525 on APBA at the time, the 500 was a perfect motor for the class. But history shows Mercury has doner it time and time again, no different then SC with the 750/850's .

I don't think anyone will have to worry about Mercury forcing anything on anybody for a long time. Only thing that might remotely change that is if Illmor started to get a little to much market share.

It is good to see SVL and Cat outboard growing.

With today's technology tough, wouldn't it be possible to make an easy tech check rule to make parity between the three different engines?

ie;

500 carb, 5850 max RPM
500 EFI, 5650 max RPM
525EFI, 5450 max RPM

Or something similar?

[Ratickle]

It certainly worked for those with a single engine boat 30' or less.

Now to figure out what to do for those who have twins, or a boat bigger than 30'.

I'm really leaning towards 85mph (or maybe 90mph), 38'11" maximum, Mono Hull.

Some I've talked to say no Speedmasters, Surface Drives, and no Canopy's. I'm not convinced yet that any of those give an unfair advantage.

It would be like saying you can't run because of the speedmaster or Wil can't run because of the canopy.

[F1-00 Racing]

If i may ??................

the P4 is because we changed the rules to single engine 30 foot max 80 MPH and this is almost every single engine boat today !

.......

When i came up with this idea..( YES ME ) about combining the classes 5 & 4 and make it single engine only 80 MPH.. i also talked to most twin engine owners and told them they need to send an e-mail to JC about theyr class to make it 90 MPH so they could still run. EVERYBODY that i talked to, told me it was a great idea and they will send theyr toughts in. NOBODY ( sorry ) almost all of them did not send anything ( Trent did ) and now all others complain !

The ones that ran P3 ( like Pump it ) said they dont care..so nothing got changed since they did not care !

.....Are there really others interested in this P3 class at all ??
Thats what matters most for somebody to change a class speed.
P4 went super great and will continue to do so with this change ....since now its fair again !

LETS JUST RACE AND HAVE FUN !!!!!

Scott,

I have tried my best to behave and you have done way better here on the boards as of late, however what you stated above is completely false.

.....I left this sport after being an SBI mostly racer for over 6-7 yrs and took some time off and upon my return I went to where the competition was.

Also I DID NOT send anything in to SBI as you stated that I did. My actions were clearly documented on page 1 of this thread in my post. As is how it was originally released as 90 mph and mysteriously went to 95 in a 3 day period.

You claim that it was your idea, great claim it, who cares, we've only been discussing it since you were just a wet spot on racing's leg. Regardless of who's claim to fame the 80 mph deal is; I think it is the best thing as it allowed my Fountain the best fit since F1 is no longer.

Also you are saying that we are all complaining. I havent seen Jim on here posting and I am sure you wont. I am not certainly complaining as Paul brought up a topic that directly affects me both with the single and the twin application since both of my boats are former F1 and F2 boats. I stated that when asked I responded to an official and in informal talks verbally that I would be ok with 90. I also have stated the JC has a business to run and just as Walmart, McDonalds, etc, he has products(classes) that he offers. Ok fine a SAFE class for Jim and I to run in is NOT offered so just as in NYC, our boats will sit on the trailer at the SBI sites. I AM NOT COMPLAINING, I COULD CARE LESS, I have a place to run, Jim has a place to run his 34. If JC wants to offer a product that is suitable for our twin to run in then my team will make the best business decision for itself and go from there. Then again no promises as it is really hard to leave a situation that pays over a "g" a race within a week of completion to go and only possibly win at most $375.00 and have to wait till December to get it I'm not saying it as a bad thing, however JC runs a "for profit" business and I respect and stand by every decision he makes. I run a "for profit" business as well(that whats the accountant keeps trying to tell me) and we all have to make easy and tough decisions in the business world to stay afloat.

Instead of focusing on something that doesnt even affect you, why dont you focus on how the 2010 World Champion P3 boat(95 mph), a canopied boat with a 750 Supercat motor in it!! How can it possibly be allowed to run in a 80 mph class? Instead of focusing on something that doesnt affect you, now that you are finishing, why dont you figure out how to accelerate so you arent left behind at the starts.

I had a great conversation with Paul on the phone and I am sure he'll agree with me in the fact that I DONT CARE and I am certainly not losing sleep over this. My mission was to come out and prove that Simmons aint that bad and can easily be beat. It wasnt exactly easy, but guess what, he aint the king of the hill no more, so mission accomplished. Now its time for me to come up with a new challenge and go out and accomplish that.

Go down to Key West and run your race or as you keep putting on Facebook go down for your "party" ........Good luck!!!!!

Still love ya bud(in a manly way of course), just aggravated when someone posts false information

[F1-00 Racing]

and Scott think about this. Your boat is 2" longer than the specified rules in the SBI and OPA rule books. You are an "Exception" to the rules.(in more ways than one lol) "Walk softly and carry a big stick" Teddy Roosevelt

[F1-00 Racing]

Messured by WHOM ????

u seem to know more then i do about my boat...WOW

you and an OPA official in OB 2010 and by yourself and me in front of Paradise Cove at a Sponsor appearance the both of us did prior to the Cocoa race 2011. In your attempt to prove the OPA official wrong you had borrowed a tape measure from the manager and you stood at the stern and I took the roll and extended it to the bow. Upon you verifying that I did not move and proved the OPA official was correct in his measurement, you snickered and shrugged your shoulders and said "OH"

For someone the professes to know it all, you sure do have a lot of memory loss

Also as well while your in KW why dont you ask the guys what the P class speed was back in 2002 and 2003 ding ding P4 was 80 APBA LLC ran it as GPS, SBI ran it as avg speed, it was then changed in 04 by SBI. When did you start racing??? 07, 08?????

Any more history you want to know, let me know

[Ratickle]

My opinion guys....



2" over, grandfathered in forever, great....


I personally like the 6" + rule in APBA. (At least I think it's there still).

[Sean Stinson]

Boys and girls continue and when you are finished I will reflect alot of old threads that cover ALL OF THIS....but please the entertainment factor is awesome!!!!

[Ratickle]

Boys and girls continue and when you are finished I will reflect alot of old threads that cover ALL OF THIS....but please the entertainment factor is awesome!!!!

You had better participate bud......

You will be in Key West to chat, won't you?

[Wahoo 214]

IMO a huge threat to US offshore is a by product of our terrible economy. The loss of our current fleet of higher class (C2, C1 and extreme) boats overseas. For example:

My Bat Boat = Sweden
My Cat = Austraila
Derek's Skater = New Zealand
My Fountain + Trinidad
Muscle = Trinidad
Snack Attack = Trinidad
Saratoga Stampied = Trinidad
38 Phantom = Trinidad

and many more I'm sure.

[Ratickle]

Wonder if OPA can have a race in Trinidad????


I understand what everyone is saying. However, I still think there is a spot for a twin engine vee.

[F1-00 Racing]

Paul,

Per Beckley there are 2 P3 boats in KW, I am assuming Kilt and Pump It, which are both for sale. Pretty sure you will see changes made in the class speed in SBI over the winter, but then again who knows. It will all work itself out.

[Ratickle]

Paul,

Per Beckley there are 2 P3 boats in KW, I am assuming Kilt and Pump It, which are both for sale. Pretty sure you will see changes made in the class speed in SBI over the winter, but then again who knows. It will all work itself out.

All the racers can do is get together, figure out which boats are out there and want to run if there was a class they fit into, then try to work with the orgs to get it to happen.

I'll chat with a bunch of them in Key West I imagine.

I am already starting to form some strong opinions based on the conversations I've had with racers.

[Ratickle]

Sorry the update stuff took so long guys. Plus we still have bugs.....