The little Sonic that could..Where racing heroes really come from

[BBB725]

How do you break up the classes, outboard/inboard, Vee/Cat, Stock/modified?

[Top Banana]

Charlie:

Let's not repeat the same mistakes that have bedeviled us for decades..... Adding separate classes has always diluted the overall competition model. I would simply make stopping for fuel optional...but it's the racer's responsibility as far as any time lost in the process.

Frankly, this needs to be as simple as possible..... Limit the classes to 5 or 6....internal combustion only.

Just my .02, we are starting with a clean sheet of paper. At least we should try to avoid the mistakes that put the sport in the backwaters it sits in today.

T2x

I agree 200% Maybe the best model we had over the years was the one Open class and three Production classes in total.

[T2x]

How do you break up the classes, outboard/inboard, Vee/Cat, Stock/modified?

250 mile offshore races are great equalizers....they pretty well rule out 1500 hp 110 octane supercharged motors designed for less than30 minutes of life at or near maximum RPM.......and cats and vees can compete heads up in big seas.......

Boat racing was most successful when the race organizers set the class rules and the competitors fit themselves into those limits. Today with the racers setting the class specs and the organizers adding classes to fit individual boats..we have somehow lost the majority of both race boats and racers.

When you are dealing with endurance racing in true ocean conditions with heavy fuel loads, life rafts, exhausting physical demands and more conservative engine specs, the circumstances create much more equalization.

I suggest broad class limits.....

3 or more gas or diesels up to 50 feet
Twin inboard gas or diesels up to 40'
outboards up to 32 feet
Single inboards up to 32 feet
and
Nostalgia boats over 35 years in age..........

and that's about it......................

I clearly remember when the Miami-NY race took place...there were unlimited rules and a wide variety of approaches, but each team had about the same chance to win by the time the start rolled around. In fact had the race taken place two days later there would have been a completely different outcome. For the record, three of the five teams never made it past Jacksonville, and they were very well funded.

The thing about this kind of racing is that it takes the kind of competitor who, if he fails to finish or comes in hours after the winner,fuels his resolve to do better the following year...not demand a new class.

T2x

[Slandrew]

250 mile offshore races are great equalizers....they pretty well rule out 1500 hp 110 octane supercharged motors designed for less than30 minutes of life at or near maximum RPM.......and cats and vees can compete heads up in big seas.......

Boat racing was most successful when the race organizers set the class rules and the competitors fit themselves into those limits. Today with the racers setting the class specs and the organizers adding classes to fit individual boats..we have somehow lost the majority of both race boats and racers.

When you are dealing with endurance racing in true ocean conditions with heavy fuel loads, life rafts, exhausting physical demands and more conservative engine specs, the circumstances create much more equalization.

I suggest broad class limits.....

3 or more gas or diesels up to 50 feet
Twin inboard gas or diesels up to 40'
outboards up to 32 feet
Single inboards up to 32 feet
and
Nostalgia boats over 35 years in age..........

and that's about it......................

I clearly remember when the Miami-NY race took place...there were unlimited rules and a wide variety of approaches, but each team had about the same chance to win by the time the start rolled around. In fact had the race taken place two days later there would have been a completely different outcome. For the record, three of the five teams never made it past Jacksonville, and they were very well funded.

The thing about this kind of racing is that it takes the kind of competitor who, if he fails to finish or comes in hours after the winner,fuels his resolve to do better the following year...not demand a new class.

T2x

Not to pick your brains but was the Miami NY race record held by the Itialians in the Sony boat??

[nthdegree]

Were and when are the next races?

Tomorrow morning....

[Buoy]

250 mile offshore races are great equalizers....they pretty well rule out 1500 hp 110 octane supercharged motors designed for less than30 minutes of life at or near maximum RPM.......and cats and vees can compete heads up in big seas.......

Boat racing was most successful when the race organizers set the class rules and the competitors fit themselves into those limits. Today with the racers setting the class specs and the organizers adding classes to fit individual boats..we have somehow lost the majority of both race boats and racers.

When you are dealing with endurance racing in true ocean conditions with heavy fuel loads, life rafts, exhausting physical demands and more conservative engine specs, the circumstances create much more equalization.

I suggest broad class limits.....

3 or more gas or diesels up to 50 feet
Twin inboard gas or diesels up to 40'
outboards up to 32 feet
Single inboards up to 32 feet
and
Nostalgia boats over 35 years in age..........

and that's about it......................

I clearly remember when the Miami-NY race took place...there were unlimited rules and a wide variety of approaches, but each team had about the same chance to win by the time the start rolled around. In fact had the race taken place two days later there would have been a completely different outcome. For the record, three of the five teams never made it past Jacksonville, and they were very well funded.

The thing about this kind of racing is that it takes the kind of competitor who, if he fails to finish or comes in hours after the winner,fuels his resolve to do better the following year...not demand a new class.

T2x

Rich, I really like your thoughts on this subject. This type of racing would be of MUCH more interest to me.

Not to pick your brains but was the Miami NY race record held by the Itialians in the Sony boat??

I know at one point it was held by a 24 Pantera

[Top Banana]

The Miami to NY that Rich was talkng about was won by George Morales inhis 45 foot Cougar with triple engines. Sandy Satullo in a Tempest and Al Copeland in his big Superboat, Bobby Saccenti and Kramer in a big Apache (widebody)......I forget the last guy, sorry.....maybe Gentry???

[boatme]

Charlie and or Rich,

Grand Haven to Milwaukee and back is about 150 miles Straight across the big pond and back If Going Grand Haven to Chicago and Back the total is about 220 miles Your thoughts ??

[Top Banana]

Charlie and or Rich,

Grand Haven to Milwaukee and back is about 150 miles Straight across the big pond and back If Going Grand Haven to Chicago and Back the total is about 220 miles Your thoughts ??

Chicago....for a couple of reasons.....no disprespect to Milwaukee, but for Sponsors, the racers would probably find a better reception if we included Chicago. That is one of the reasons why the Brits like our New York race.....right up the East River...you can't beat that for exposure.

Second....longer distance is always better, gets us back to the days of the Bahamas 500 and the Long Beach to San Francisco races. We are only doing four of these a year, or one a year, if you are a local racer....this gives you more fun for the money.

Just my opinion.

[Brownie]

Morales won in 48' 4 engine Cougar Cat. Popeye 2nd in a 46' 3 engine Cougar Vee. Superb boats, average crews.........

[Slandrew]

Morales won in 48' 4 engine Cougar Cat. Popeye 2nd in a 46' 3 engine Cougar Vee. Superb boats, average crews.........

Can't find pictures right now but did Sony boat attempt the maimi to NY run?

[Top Banana]

Morales won in 48' 4 engine Cougar Cat. Popeye 2nd in a 46' 3 engine Cougar Vee. Superb boats, average crews.........

As usual, the Master knew the right answer. I stand corrected sir !

[T2x]

Morales won in 48' 4 engine Cougar Cat. Popeye 2nd in a 46' 3 engine Cougar Vee. Superb boats, average crews.........

I agree with you on the boats...disagree on the crews.

T2x

[purrfection]

A few pictures of Al Copeland's boat.

[Underdog88]

Very inspirational read!

I was a motorcycle drag racer for 20 years and was always the Underdog (hence the name) until the final 3 years when I landed a factory ride. We then became the people we used to hate... but won 2 AMA National Championships those final years.

My worst years were also my best previously. When I got out of bracket racing and threw everything I had (and much of what I didn't and shouldn't) at running a Pro class on a bracket racers budget. I had a little help but...

Parking across from Team Muzzys Kawasaki Semi in my little 20 ft trailer was humbling to say the least. Changing my pieced together budget motors by myself between rounds, while watching their crew of many put in a brand new bullet every round. I usually took all 3 motors home in oily boxes... Later only two as I ran outa parts and money.

My record against them was 1-13. That one win meant more to me than the 2 AMA #1 National Plates combined with the Factory Yamaha ride.

Good on you Lil Sonic!!! I'm going out to the shop now and finish up my motors for the Lil Velocity!

Mark Underwood
Underdog Racing
Est. 1986

[T2x]

Charlie and or Rich,

Grand Haven to Milwaukee and back is about 150 miles Straight across the big pond and back If Going Grand Haven to Chicago and Back the total is about 220 miles Your thoughts ??

UMMMMM........ How does.........

Grand Haven to Chicago to Milwaukee to Grand Haven

sound?

2 big cities for the price of one and a total race distance of about 270 miles.

Heck...I raced (alone) from Milwaukee to Chicago and back in an 18 foot Eltro..... and Linder did it the previous year when the race was reversed (starting/ending in Chicago) in the same boat. 4 years earlier in 1964 we ran Chicago-New Buffalo in an even smaller boat and in 1981 I raced a Shadow Cat in really bad storm seas on the Chicago-Michigan City-Chicago course. Lake Michigan is a real test of man against nature.....

[BUIZILLA]

I, for one, am thrilled to see anything but beach racing being promoted

[boatme]

[QUOTE=T2x;524099]UMMMMM........ How does.........

Grand Haven to Chicago to Milwaukee to Grand Haven

sound?

2 big cities for the price of one and a total race distance of about 270 miles.

QUOTE]

Rich

Logistics for saftey crew might be bit problematic but not a bad Idea

would 270 be to much in milage?? would it turn some prospective racers away or encourage more to come ?

[Slandrew]

[QUOTE=boatme;524139]

UMMMMM........ How does.........

Grand Haven to Chicago to Milwaukee to Grand Haven

sound?

2 big cities for the price of one and a total race distance of about 270 miles.

QUOTE]

Rich

Logistics for saftey crew might be bit problematic but not a bad Idea

would 270 be to much in milage?? would it turn some prospective racers away or encourage more to come ?

Lets say they average 60mph they should be faster than that but lets just say that whould be close to a 4 hour runFuel stops worst case 9 hours

[JoeD30]

Very inspirational read!

I was a motorcycle drag racer for 20 years and was always the Underdog (hence the name) until the final 3 years when I landed a factory ride. We then became the people we used to hate... but won 2 AMA National Championships those final years.

My worst years were also my best previously. When I got out of bracket racing and threw everything I had (and much of what I didn't and shouldn't) at running a Pro class on a bracket racers budget. I had a little help but...

Parking across from Team Muzzys Kawasaki Semi in my little 20 ft trailer was humbling to say the least. Changing my pieced together budget motors by myself between rounds, while watching their crew of many put in a brand new bullet every round. I usually took all 3 motors home in oily boxes... Later only two as I ran outa parts and money.

My record against them was 1-13. That one win meant more to me than the 2 AMA #1 National Plates combined with the Factory Yamaha ride.

Good on you Lil Sonic!!! I'm going out to the shop now and finish up my motors for the Lil Velocity!

Mark Underwood
Underdog Racing
Est. 1986

Thanks Mark, this is and will be one of the highlights of my life for sure...first offshore race first win