Why the cost???

[db71]

On the boat thing I do not want every middle clas american owning one not what I am thinking I am thinking 20-30 yr old male with income but not a ton extra but enough to pay a payment and ins. and enough gas to get on the lake go to the cove and be with other people just like them. Good jobs but no house no kids etc. I guess you could say starter boat but a step above that.

Gas will go up for sure more reason to do what I'm saying who would buy a used 5 yr old boat when they could buy new and get new with same gas mileage for same price.

On a side not I actually designed and patented a part that goes on semi trailers that saves fuel economy made of fiberglass it is just chopped though. So when fuel goes up and it will I have a hedge abainst that. Maybe not fullproof but who knows. I will post some pictures tomorrow if anyone wants to see it (on my other computer)

[tommymonza]

For your info I have been heavily researching starting a sailboat manufacturing facility . The company manufacturing only one model at a price point with many unique and practical proven performance features along with many of the comforts that are expected.

There is one other manufacturer that has been doing it for years in the states and has done well but he is far from what we have in mind.They are currently the Bayliner of sailing catamarans ,very applicable to the intended use but a still a big compromise.

Catamarans have taken over the sailing industry but are very expensive compared to a comparable monohull .But every old person wants one so they don't spend their retirement sailing thru the islands looking out a porthole at a 45 degree angle.

This is a market that is feasible because there is many people in the sailing world that had dreams of sailing to the islands after they retired but now their retirment is half of what they thought it would be.

They cannot afford the minuim price of 300 thousand for a decent 35 foot cat anymore so they have to compromise or not go sailing. There is very few boats in this size that are built at a reasonable price and you know why that is.

Because it does not cost a whole lot more to build a little bigger and you can ask a ton more for it and that is why you do not see anybody building a little 20 footer anymore .You can build a 25 for very little more if you are already into a big block and bravo.

So we bring in a well performing non-heeling catamaran that offers them everything they need- not want - need that is well built and safe.

Huge market but a ton of risk on a good day.But thats what built this country.

I don't disagree with your idea i just think the market will not be there in 2 years.

[phragle]

Tommy... have you considered a tri?..more room on board an much better stability in the 35 foot range. Shallow draft, no daggerboards etc.

[tommymonza]

Tri's are great if you want to go fast in a light weight camper type of boat like a F-31but other than that they are another hull to build and offer very little in interior room in a under 35 range.

I have read about your sailing background so i know where you are coming from.

I have a very unique idea of how the inside of a liveaboard boat should be designed and built.

[Matt Trulio]

TommyMonza makes some good points that can stand some amplification:

1. The middle class, depending on the sources you cite, is indeed declining.But that's been happening for the past 20 to 30 years, again depending on your source.

2. The average "Joe Schmoe" could: A) Never afford a performance boat. B) Never afford to drop $400 bucks for boat fuel on a weekend (and that's way on the low end for go-fast boats).

By the classic definition of "middle class," performance boating is not a middle class activity. Upper middle and lower upper perhaps, but so definitely not middle.

As for owning a performance boat being a fad, I would argue that, much like the sub-prime housing loan debacle, a lot of people got financing they never should have. Credit scores? Are you kidding? Before everything crashed, my credit score alone could have put me, a magazine writer, in a boat that cost more than my first two homes—combined. And that's just stupid. Thank god the days of using your ever-appreciating "home equity" like an ATM are gone.

My question—and I think people like db71 are seeing it whether they know it or not—is this: What will replace production performance boat building until (or if) it returns?

My answer? Regional builders such as Sunsation and Checkmate. Good pricing. Good value.

[tommymonza]

I agree the little guys can run tight and will carry on and can change to adjust to the market,
A few of the high end guys like Skater and Nortech will do well as they will continue to innovate and the high end customer that remains will still crave this innovation.

Cigarette will persavere on their name and history along with Pantera still building a no nonsense well built monohull boat.

Getting back to your idea of a economically built offshore boat.5 years ago my future father inlaw decided he wanted to move up to a 25 foot bowrider from his 20 foot starter boat that he had for 2 years,

He came back with the brochure for a 25 foot Stingray.I said no lets go look at other boats no way are you buying a chitbucket Stingray.
Well we went out and looked at all the other major brands of well built boats. Comparably optioned they were at least 50% more and what really turned us off was the layout was no where as nice as the Stingray.Price was not the problem but it certainally did not help their cause.

Anyways he has owned it for 5 years now and i use it 90% of the time so i do all the service myself for the use.I am not easy on a boat but I know it is not a offshore performance boat.

To this day that thing still impresses me how solid it is and how well the interior and other hardware has held up.And this is a come home late at night sit in the saltwater and Florida rain and sun till the forklift guys guys get to taken care of it kind of boat.I have had many people out on the boat who are boaters and they just love the layout.
So what i am getting at is there was one company that did it with a mid entry family boat with a solid product that was 2/3rds the price of the competion.

Innovation would go a long ways in a new line and we are not talking bottoms and speed.

[db71]

That is funny you mention stingray I remember seeing there prices and payment options through local dealer. I remember this guy had one i wanna say 25 but maybe 23 it was tall out of the water it was red I rememebr him firing it up it had a 496 (maybe 454 it was older) He said he paid like 25,00 for it new (maybe demo) We where all like I want one (For the record at the time I was in the 20-30 range with some extra cash.

[tommymonza]

We bought it in 2005 for 41,000 out the door with the 300MPI and Bravo3 and every option for a 25 orderd from the factory 6 weeks delivery.

[db71]

This would have been 01 maybe 02. So probably 300 mpi

[JupiterSunsation]

TommyMonza makes some good points that can stand some amplification:

1. The middle class, depending on the sources you cite, is indeed declining.But that's been happening for the past 20 to 30 years, again depending on your source.

2. The average "Joe Schmoe" could: A) Never afford a performance boat. B) Never afford to drop $400 bucks for boat fuel on a weekend (and that's way on the low end for go-fast boats).

By the classic definition of "middle class," performance boating is not a middle class activity. Upper middle and lower upper perhaps, but so definitely not middle.

As for owning a performance boat being a fad, I would argue that, much like the sub-prime housing loan debacle, a lot of people got financing they never should have. Credit scores? Are you kidding? Before everything crashed, my credit score alone could have put me, a magazine writer, in a boat that cost more than my first two homes—combined. And that's just stupid. Thank god the days of using your ever-appreciating "home equity" like an ATM are gone.

My question—and I think people like db71 are seeing it whether they know it or not—is this: What will replace production performance boat building until (or if) it returns?

My answer? Regional builders such as Sunsation and Checkmate. Good pricing. Good value.

Sunsation recently had "bling'd out" 200K 32 footers with 496 HO's.....IMHO that is way high but their S-line of boats aim to be much more competitive.

In the crazier times you could buy a new boat and trade it a year later for another new one and damn near break even on the first on! (atleast that is how it looked on paper!)

[Matt Trulio]

Jupiter,

You're pretty dialed into Sunsation (to put it mildly), so check out the pricing on the new 36. It's comparable to what the production builders were asking for like-sized models but—it's a semi-custom boat from a company that stands behind its products. (I know, I am preaching to the choir here.)

Sunsation could never have the output of a production builder. Then again, the demand for that kind of output doesn't exist at this point in time. Until that demand comes back, if that demand comes back, I think the regional guys will fill the void left when the production builders went silent.

[JupiterSunsation]

Jupiter,

You're pretty dialed into Sunsation (to put it mildly), so check out the pricing on the new 36. It's comparable to what the production builders were asking for like-sized models but—it's a semi-custom boat from a company that stands behind its products. (I know, I am preaching to the choir here.)

Sunsation could never have the output of a production builder. Then again, the demand for that kind of output doesn't exist at this point in time. Until that demand comes back, if that demand comes back, I think the regional guys will fill the void left when the production builders went silent.

Matt I agree with you 100%............my point was even Sunsation (a builder that is poised to make it through) got a little crazy with highly optioned boats. Now keep in mind they were only building what the dealers/customers ordered so there was demand for that kind of boat at that time. Hideaway was a former Cigarette/Outerlimits dealer so they were used to checking all the option boxes so they kind of started the "bling" category for Sunsation.

The 36 (with Tres Martin tweaks) should fit in nicely between the F4 and the 32. Joe thinks it will run faster than the 32 with identical power due to a more efficient hull design. I have a 32 MCOB and would only order the 36 as a MCOB (of the 6 being built, no MCOBs yet). S. FL no wake zones make the cabin a nice breezeway for my kids to get out of the sun! The cabins are sweatboxes unless you have (and run) a generator in a closed deck boat in Florida!

[tommymonza]

[QUOTE=JupiterSunsation;434243]Sunsation recently had "bling'd out" 200K 32 footers with 496 HO's.....IMHO that is way high but their S-line of boats aim to be much more competitive.


Take it this is the 32 Sunsation you were talking about.


http://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/8060

The MCOB is such a practical boat if you have kids or if you live in Fl.That V-berth in most boats is just an area to pile crap.I really like this one.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifi...o32528-en.html

[MahopacMarine]

I agree the little guys can run tight and will carry on and can change to adjust to the market,
A few of the high end guys like Skater and Nortech will do well as they will continue to innovate and the high end customer that remains will still crave this innovation.

Cigarette will persavere on their name and history along with Pantera still building a no nonsense well built monohull boat.

Getting back to your idea of a economically built offshore boat.5 years ago my future father inlaw decided he wanted to move up to a 25 foot bowrider from his 20 foot starter boat that he had for 2 years,

He came back with the brochure for a 25 foot Stingray.I said no lets go look at other boats no way are you buying a chitbucket Stingray.
Well we went out and looked at all the other major brands of well built boats. Comparably optioned they were at least 50% more and what really turned us off was the layout was no where as nice as the Stingray.Price was not the problem but it certainally did not help their cause.

Anyways he has owned it for 5 years now and i use it 90% of the time so i do all the service myself for the use.I am not easy on a boat but I know it is not a offshore performance boat.

To this day that thing still impresses me how solid it is and how well the interior and other hardware has held up.And this is a come home late at night sit in the saltwater and Florida rain and sun till the forklift guys guys get to taken care of it kind of boat.I have had many people out on the boat who are boaters and they just love the layout.
So what i am getting at is there was one company that did it with a mid entry family boat with a solid product that was 2/3rds the price of the competion.

Innovation would go a long ways in a new line and we are not talking bottoms and speed.

That is why we carry and never will get rid of the Stingray line!

[MahopacMarine]

[QUOTE=tommymonza;434386]

Sunsation recently had "bling'd out" 200K 32 footers with 496 HO's.....IMHO that is way high but their S-line of boats aim to be much more competitive.


Take it this is the 32 Sunsation you were talking about.


http://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/8060

The MCOB is such a practical boat if you have kids or if you live in Fl.That V-berth in most boats is just an area to pile crap.I really like this one.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifi...o32528-en.html

The 32 is at $200k but is also an asking price. The boat is completely loaded. We have sold S boats as well as the SSR's. Looking at past inventory our local clientel demands the Blinged out boat rather than the standard version. I have a 32 S boat in stock that I have had only 2 real offers on that is priced well below $200k.
I think alot of it depends on your location and clientel.

[Matt Trulio]

Stingray is pretty progressive, too, when it comes to manufacturing technology. They were also one of the first boat builders to use its own five-axis router to create tooling. The Stingray plant, at least when I visited it several years ago, was impressive.

[tommymonza]

I remember going for a tour of the S-2 Tiara plant in Holland Michigan back in 1982 and just being blown away how clean and progressive the plant was. I was only 18 but I had spent a few years building boats at my brothers facility and had been in many others. Very impressive back in the day.

[JupiterSunsation]

]

The 32 is at $200k but is also an asking price. The boat is completely loaded. We have sold S boats as well as the SSR's. Looking at past inventory our local clientel demands the Blinged out boat rather than the standard version. I have a 32 S boat in stock that I have had only 2 real offers on that is priced well below $200k.
I think alot of it depends on your location and clientel.

I wasn't commenting on your boats as much as the "one off" stuff Hideaway was ordering a couple years back. Ugly boats with ridiculous prices seemed to be their criteria.....almost like lets order a goofy boat and see how much we can get for it!

[JupiterSunsation]

[QUOTE=tommymonza;434386]

Sunsation recently had "bling'd out" 200K 32 footers with 496 HO's.....IMHO that is way high but their S-line of boats aim to be much more competitive.


Take it this is the 32 Sunsation you were talking about.


http://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/8060

The MCOB is such a practical boat if you have kids or if you live in Fl.That V-berth in most boats is just an area to pile crap.I really like this one.

Boat has made the Bahamas a few times now and has done 20+ poker runs and I finished every one. I never was the leader of the pack but never broke either! http://www.flpowerboat.com/gallery/d...lbum=11&pos=23 This was going to the Bahamas on a 3-5 ft day and we should have stayed home! I was the 3rd boat to West End of the 12 that went. Weather sucked all weekend! Look at the other pics and you can see 38 TG's and 45 Sonics way up in the air!

[Ratickle]

I remember going for a tour of the S-2 Tiara plant in Holland Michigan back in 1982 and just being blown away how clean and progressive the plant was. I was only 18 but I had spent a few years building boats at my brothers facility and had been in many others. Very impressive back in the day.

We went to their grand opening of the expanded facility a couple years ago. They have an in-house water tank to test even the big boys.

Nice place. Too bad the economy tanked on boats. They have eliminated most of their boat building people and are changing to making wind turbine blades of fiberglass.