turbine boat question??

[KnotRight]

i have opened a few t53s up and there is nothing to control n2 inside the engine the most basic way to describe a turbine gas producer is its a big blowtorch.....n1 and n2 control levers are strickly in the fuel control system? how does n2lever govern n2 speed? does it cut fuel or open bleed band? my brother is maintaince head at a power plant with 4 ge over 1 million hp gas turbines they are big and fasinating inside also helping a freind restore a few migs those engines are shakers you can grab the first row of blades and they are very loose and sound like wind chimes as it rotates at slow speed they lock in with centrifical force still does not seem right!

Its all controlled by fuel. If the Bleed ban opens to late the compressor
would force to much air into the combustor and a Stall will most likely
occur. This is when the in coming air actualy changes direction.
Comes right out the intake
I would love to get a tour of your brothers operation.
Come get me in one of those migs and the first round is on me.

What is amazing is the fuel control. It is a very complex unit.
You have to have some serious patience or alot of Corona to
take one of these apart. Even Arruda sends these out.
it has little fly weights that measure rpm of n1 n2 systems
Bellows that measure air density (altitude) It measures outside air temp.
incoming air pressure. It is all Mechanical.
It controls the air inlet vane guides, The bleed band, and of course
the fuel. It plots fuel schedules like takeoff, acceleration,deceleration
this is done with little internal cams and ramps.
You really have to give these guys credit it was late 1940s and 50,s
technology. In todays engines its all computer controlled.

Something else i find interesting is no one to my knowledge has replaced
this unit. with lets say a modified Motec. It has simple inputs and outputs.
and the Flow divider is really what controls the primary and secondary fuel nozzles.via incoming pressure. Perhaps it is what it is reliable.

Now I will Take my Freakin geek hat off now and go get some coffee.

Here is what the fuel control looks like.
Makes a holley Dominator look like a cereal box surprise.

[Rik]

Gerry, Fuel Controls are amazing when you consider all they do and how they do it. And to think they were designed and put into operation way before the modern computer was made makes them even more amazing.

[tommymonza]

Unreal complexity. Thanks for the education.

[waterboy222]

So do they use water at all? I mean, it seems like the exhaust is only a few inches long and some have water coming out, some dont.. Can you run them on the trailer?

[Dueclaws]

Fascinating!

[Bobthebuilder]

I can not contribute much to the technical side of the discussion but can tell you just a bit about the boat. It is a 50 ft Airborne and is owned by DoubleR Performance in Ontario, Canada. DoubleR looks after my boats in Canada and I know the players well. With the boat being painted orange, like the General Lee, we all call it the Dukes of Hazard boat. We did the Rice Lake Poker Run in September when that video would have been taken. A part of that poker run has us going 16 miles up a narrow river and the cottagers all get off the water and watch the mayhem that afternoon each year. Raymond wisely chose not to do the river section with the Dukes of Hazard because of safety concerns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlwsP...eature=related

When I grow up I want a turbine ! LOL
Bob

[ZBODaytona]

http://www.turbinemarine.com/project...n_50_NT_V.html

this is the boat i was talking about. For some reason I remember them saying it was very quite. Bob it is a 50V.

[KnotRight]

So do they use water at all? I mean, it seems like the exhaust is only a few inches long and some have water coming out, some dont.. Can you run them on the trailer?

Yes they can run on the trailer and do not require any water.
Some boat riggers choose to run water threw the exhaust.
Others run dry wrapped exhaust.
One challenge is to keep the oil at 200F this can be done with a water
exchanger like a piston application. You could even use a air to liquid exchanger to accomplish this also. This is how its done in the helicopter.


A Turbine once lit will run on fuel and air only no power or water at all.

[KnotRight]

Gerry, Fuel Controls are amazing when you consider all they do and how they do it. And to think they were designed and put into operation way before the modern computer was made makes them even more amazing.

I agree
Thats when engineers were super geeks!
No Cad no programs to figure this out were talking really fart smellers.

[Bobthebuilder]

http://www.turbinemarine.com/project...n_50_NT_V.html

this is the boat i was talking about. For some reason I remember them saying it was very quite. Bob it is a 50V.

Sorry. I was referring to the video in JJ opening post #1. I had not realized that discussion switched over to the Turbine Marine Vee. Love the sound of the turbines. Carry on !! LOL

[40FlatDeck]

Yes they can run on the trailer and do not require any water.
Some boat riggers choose to run water threw the exhaust.
Others run dry wrapped exhaust.
One challenge is to keep the oil at 200F this can be done with a water
exchanger like a piston application. You could even use a air to liquid exchanger to accomplish this also. This is how its done in the helicopter.


A Turbine once lit will run on fuel and air only no power or water at all.

Gerry, I'm in Tucson and was contacted by the boys who built your turbines. They wanted me to stop by and check it out. Not that i would ever do it, but it would be cool as heck to see them run one up.

[40FlatDeck]

Also, when a "hot start" occurs, are you doomed to a rebuild? Are there systems to shut fuel off when this happens if you don't realize it? Is a hot start pretty common?

[Joe549]

Bob already answered the question about which boat it is in the opening video, but here are a few more pics of it and another youtube vid prior to the orange paint http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShO4K6ySfzg

[viperfitness1]

i worked on turbines in the air force for little over 6 years. run certified for GE F110,F118,F101,TF33,TF34 and pratt & whits F100 series

most of my knowledge is in test cell and complete overhauls

first pic is a F110 that is getting new stage one blades

second is a blurring pic of me inspecting LPT rotor blades after a long augmenter run on cell

ive got some really cool pics somewhere of a f110 that had a spare fairing left inside and it blew the augmenter section down the thrust tunnel after i put it in afterburner... heard a loud boom, seen sparks and started pressing fire suppression. scared the sh!t outa all of us! oh the good ol days

[Brad]

Great reading! Thanks

[KnotRight]

Bob already answered the question about which boat it is in the opening video, but here are a few more pics of it and another youtube vid prior to the orange paint http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShO4K6ySfzg

Hows those engines running?

Thats Double R,s correct?

[KnotRight]

Also, when a "hot start" occurs, are you doomed to a rebuild? Are there systems to shut fuel off when this happens if you don't realize it? Is a hot start pretty common?

Erik,
You can see it coming in the Pyrometer. Kill fuel and continue the spool.
Will drop the pyro almost instantly.

Wiring the Start fuel nozzles on a dedicated switch allows
the operator to kill the start fuel in the event of a Hot start.

I have had my Pyro pegged more then once. I was running home heating oil i had some plugged start fuel nozzles. let me tell you smoked more the a freight train and the pyro went to the moon.
Im at the dock and my crew was there holding the boat. I started spooling the starboard motor and I looked up and my crew were all freakin running away I looked behind me and the flame had to be 10 feet high
I just released the fuel and continued spooling exstinguishing the flame.
No damage occured what so ever.

There pretty stout engines and the more time you spend around them the more you get to know them.

[Bobthebuilder]

Hows those engines running?

Thats Double R,s correct?

I spoke with Raymond tonight and made him aware of the thread. He does not post but Peter sometimes does. He has had the boat up to 155 MPH with lots of throttle left. They had to back off and not go higher as there was no windshield on the boat yet. They had helmets on and were getting tossed around like "bobble heads" till they had a windshield. It was installed after the season finished up in Canada. He thinks it will top out at 180 but that is an estimate only at this time. He will know when the ice is off the lakes. I asked about the turbines and he says they are sweet since they were re built at PPS in Pheonix last year. Oh yes, the boat can be bought. One of the things I like about DoubleR is they will take on interesting projects like this. I had to laugh while watching the video Joe549 posted. At the 3:29 mark I went by in my old PREDATOR. It was on Lake Ontario near Toronto and I had no idea I was caught on video.
Bob

[KnotRight]

I spoke with Raymond tonight and made him aware of the thread. He does not post but Peter sometimes does. He has had the boat up to 155 MPH with lots of throttle left. They had to back off and not go higher as there was no windshield on the boat yet. They had helmets on and were getting tossed around like "bobble heads" till they had a windshield. It was installed after the season finished up in Canada. He thinks it will top out at 180 but that is an estimate only at this time. He will know when the ice is off the lakes. I asked about the turbines and he says they are sweet since they were re built at PPS in Pheonix last year. Oh yes, the boat can be bought. One of the things I like about DoubleR is they will take on interesting projects like this. I had to laugh while watching the video Joe549 posted. At the 3:29 mark I went by in my old PREDATOR. It was on Lake Ontario near Toronto and I had no idea I was caught on video.
Bob

Great news!
Glad I was able to steer him in the right direction.
If he is not burning Jet A Tell him Kerosene works very well.
The amount of smoke in his start up video tells me he may be burning
something else.

Bob I look forward to your next big adventure. Good luck and be safe.
Gerry

[macjazzy]

Nice Find Ken!


Anyone know the difference in this Turbine compared to 53,s and 55,s?

Hint it is a TF

Its a turbo fan engine. Has a set of longer blades on the compressor section that blow air rearward outside the compressor/turbine sections for added thrust. Used in airliners and some fighter planes. Not helicopters as they need to convert all the power the turbine makes into mechanical energy, ie into the gearbox.

The other main styles of jet engines would be turbo prop. The turbine powers a shaft that runs through the center of the jet forward to hook to a gearbox and power a propeller. Used in commuter Jets, C-130's, P-3's etc.

And TurboJets, all the power is used to generate thrust straight out the back of the engine. Mostly used in fighter jets and older jet planes. The least efficient of modern jet engines


At least I think that's right.....