The Great Canopy debate: To cover or not to cover, Thats the question!

[Steve 1]

The point is the old rules do not apply here the speeds have gone into the twilight zone and the NASCAR accident a VERY good Observation they could have got to him right away if he was in a convertible.

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

Watching the NASCAR race at Talladega yesterday and seeing the Ryan Neuman crash made me think about this thread. I know it was a different type crash ( pavement vs. water)and different materials ( steel vs. composite) but it sure took a long time to get him out of that car and they had a lot of people and resources at the scene working to extract him.
Fortunatly he walked away, not sure what the results would have been for a similar time span with a boat in the water.
ed

This and similar threads are incredibly tiring to me and as Tres has already proclaimed they are dangerous for the overall health and sustainability to our sport.

Just for a minute let’s explore the NASCAR/HP BOAT ANALOGIES.
1. Throw out materials and only look at material properties.
2. Using existing test protocols to provide baseline SM calcs for know materials
3. Develop proper testing procedures
4. Use probabilistic analysis to develop design criteria
5. Use the final engineering analysis to identity performance criteria.
6. Verify the performance criteria are measurable and quantifiable.
7. Test the final combination of parts and process to established standard.

With all you experts pontificating about what is better.

Which one of you has asked for laminate Schedules?
Who has asked for verification testing of stretched acrylic/ Polycarbonates?
Would anyone care to see some finite element analysis done?
Do you really believe this is infinite dimensional linear problem?

We haven’t even started the Human Factors and behavior analysis yet.

I am not an engineer but I have an IQ high enough to know this is a problem which needs to be addressed at U of M, Naval Academy or similar. I do work with engineers and naval architects who build **** like this www.Oasisoftheseas.com and they seem to know something.


Not one person has yet recognized you are all talking about a passive response mechanism rather than focusing on the prevention side of the problem.

Until someone of adequacy can really speak to the multi nodal nature of this problem lets keep this simple.

Recreational boats are meant to recreate in. The brain engages and knows is can be trained to drive properly and slow the **** down when you are out of our zone, therefore PREVENTING casualty requiring either active or passive safety response mechanisms.

If you like a lid go buy a race boat and go round and round.

If I were to build a NASCAR I am quite certain all of my questions and more could be answered in minutes by proper authority.

Now go ask your boat builder the same. There are some who can provide the right answers.

I’ll see you OFFSHORE!

OUT

[Steve 1]

Nobody is "pontificating" about anything! As there are some of us here who do Design and Build by the numbers and have been involved in Panel & Structural analyses and design for 30 years that really have built life saving canopy systems. When you can say the same then Butt in!

[BRAD SCHOENWALD]

Nobody is "pontificating" about anything! As there are some of us here who do Design and Build by the numbers and have been involved in Panel & Structural analyses and design for 30 years that really have built life saving canopy systems. When you can say the same then Butt in!

Which is why I stated above some manufactures can and do provide the correct answers. The problem remains the industry has a whole lacks professional structure and standards.

[Steve 1]

Which is why I stated above some manufactures can and do provide the correct answers. The problem remains the industry has a whole lacks professional structure and standards.

Right it is like the wild west out there in many respects.

[imco offshore]

Brad , i respect what you and Tres are doing,, i also understand you two get into boats with Rich Johnny Speedracer,,,who scares the death out of you.,,,the fact is there are alot of very rich people out there who buy big fast toys, and have no respect for their, their friends, or the guy next to them,,,they were never tought it as a child, the only thing they know is with enough money you can buy anything anybody else has, there are people who own these toys and respect them.. RICH JOHNNY SPEEDRACER buys a lamborgini and wrapes it around a tree kills his best friend,,because he was never told how to drive it,Mario Andretti drives one without a problem,, i don,t know what the answer is,,, but every super car on the raod will kill.... the race cars have special equiptment in them ,,, same with boating,,, thanks for your efforts i know you have peoples intrest at heart...george jr.

[glh]

...the industry has a whole lacks professional structure and standards.

I would venture that there is not enough economic volume in that industry to support these two items.

Same reason why insurance in those fringe areas of performance boating is practically unobtainable, and why so many manufacturers are having somewhat of a hard time these days.

If you compare anything to these boats economically or "wipe yourself out wise factor", don't go to NASCAR compare them to motorcycles.

Fortunately for motorcycle enthusiast (maybe not as fortunate for the one that wipe out)there is volume enough in motorcycle insurance pool to offset the ones that wipe themselves out. This more than likely due to the relative ease economically speaking based on the average general population revenues of going 170mph on a motorbike.

[MikeyFIN]

If your going to bring a person along in your boat, and you have a canopy you better be aware of the liability. First Who is going to say the the structure integrity of the canopy or glass is going to hold up to your high speed occurance. Did you do structural testing to said conopy? are the people riding along trained to exit properly? without panic? Is your air system properly up to date? Do you maintain it every time you use the vessel? If your are not strapped in, you will get hurt. You cannot access upper lid to open untill water PSI has equalized so you will need to stay put and breathe from a regulatorand mouth peice. You will be hanging from your seat upside down so you need to brace yourself to release harness. If you know where to grab and access or even where to reach for the regulator?. Do you know which way to swim when you get out of the canopy? What if your occupants are unconcience how are you going to keep them breathing and remove them? I have seen professional racers PANIC in the dunker test over and over again. When you go upside down in a boat you dont have your wits about you or have a clue from right or left. So lets put family and freinds into a canopy put them upside down and see if they can really struggle to make it to the surface to breathe again. You all think its easy. Its not at all. Quit this debate and move on.Wait untill the insurance company gets burried on one of these claims or think about the lawsuit you may be involved in when someone dies in your canopy boat.

Listen to the Man...
Right on the button there.

Tres you took the word out of my mouth.
Thank you.
No one should be in a canopy boat unless know the drill and Racing IMO.
And Still there´s a risk everytime one Panics in an accident.

[MikeyFIN]

So you don't need to worry about Lawsuits if someone dies in a high speed open boat accident?

Why would it be any different ?

The Captain has all the responsibility at sea.

[MikeyFIN]

So you guys tell me...would it be a good idea for a semi-unexperienced driver to run around Daytona motor speedway as fast as he possibly can in a 200 mph nascar that has had the roof cut off turning it into a convertable? with no seatbelts or helmet??

without the belts on he´d be hard pressed to go over buck fifty.... as he has to hold himself still with the wheel even with a roof on... just leave the belts out.
Come on get real...
I dunno about Daytona never been there but Talladega yes.

[Twin27Advantage]

I want a canopy V for pleasure! (if this market ever turns around and I sell my boat) For me it would extend my boating season by a good 3 months. I would use A/C and heat for comfort. For ME, we go somewhere then hang out on the bow, friends boats, or a beach. On a canopy boat I would put 4 chairs on the bow with a table and umbrella. (all billet and fabric matching the paint of course ) Much more comfortable than leaning against a bolster. It would also make running from port to port in 3-5's more comfortable by eliminating the spray in the face.

I think allot of guys look at it from a racing standpoint and assume people would be doing the same thing off the course. Most people pleasure boating dont go making high speed sharp turns for the heck of it. Most are running in a straight line, even on poker runs.

Look at most accidents of pleasure performance boats...
(this would be for v bottoms)

1. To sharp of a turn in a step bottom (usually low speed).
Can be avoided with knowledge. Usually results in people being tossed from the boat as it spins out. A harness and correct seat will prevent major injury. Unless you are making high speed sharp turns it is extremely unlikely the boat will ever go over and leave you stuck inside. I would say you have a 20% chance of being left upside down and a 50/50 shot of getting out.

2. Running at night and hitting another boat or seawall.
Almost every accident you read about is from someone being tossed in the water hurt bad and cant be found because of the darkness. This is no different than a car accident. A harness or even a seatbelt would avoid most injury.

3. Running to fast, not know the waterway, and hitting shore or a marsh.
Most get tossed and hurt upon landing in shallow water or the trees. Again, do different than a car accident and a harness would keep you in place.

4. tripping and stuffing.
I dont think I have ever heard of a v-upside down from this but it is a possability. Again a harness will stop you from slamming your body into the dash.

A cat would be a bit different, but...

Sure you would have to wear your belt or harness all the time. but in a sit down boat your not walking around anyway so no big deal. If you go take your custom car out for a cruze to the local gathering of custom cars you would wear your seatbelt right? I am sure many will disagree with me, but go pull up all of the pleasure boating accidents you can find with any boat. You will find that 99% are the result of #2, #3, and 4.

[MikeyFIN]

If you like a lid go buy a race boat and go round and round.

If I were to build a NASCAR I am quite certain all of my questions and more could be answered in minutes by proper authority.

Now go ask your boat builder the same. There are some who can provide the right answers.

I’ll see you OFFSHORE!

OUT

Amen.

When are you next time over here ?
And maybe we´ll meet in KW?

[MikeyFIN]

I want a canopy V for pleasure! (if this market ever turns around and I sell my boat) For me it would extend my boating season by a good 3 months. I would use A/C and heat for comfort. For ME, we go somewhere then hang out on the bow, friends boats, or a beach. On a canopy boat I would put 4 chairs on the bow with a table and umbrella. (all billet and fabric mating the paint of course ) Much more comfortable than leaning against a bolster. It would also make running from port to port in 3-5's more comfortable by eliminating the spray in the face.

I think allot of guys look at it from a racing standpoint and assume people would be doing the same thing off the course. Most people pleasure boating dont go making high speed sharp turns for the heck of it. Most are running in a straight line, even on poker runs.

Look at most accidents of pleasure perfromance boats...
(this would be for v bottoms)

1. To sharp of a turn in a step bottom (usually low speed).
Can be avoided with knowledge. Usually results in people being tossed from the boat as it spins out. A harness and correct seat will prevent major injury. Unless you are making high speed sharp turns it is extremely unlikely the boat will ever go over and leave you stuck inside. I would say you have a 20% chance of being left upside down and a 50/50 shot of getting out.

2. Running at night and hitting another boat or seawall.
Almost every accident you read about is from someone being tossed in the water hurt bad and cant be found because of the darkness. This is no different than a car accident. A harness or even a seatbelt would avoid most injury.

3. Running to fast, not know the waterway, and hitting shore or a marsh.
Most get tossed and hurt upon landing in shallow water or the trees. Again, do different than a car accident and a harness would keep you in place.

4. tripping and stuffing.
I dont think I have ever heard of a v-upside down from this but it is a possability. Again a harness will stop you from slamming your body into the dash.

A cat would be a bit different, but...

Sure you would have to wear your belt or harness all the time. but in a sit down boat your not walking around anyway so no big deal. If you go take your custom car out for a cruze to the local gathering of custom cars you would wear your seatbelt right? I am sure many will disagree with me, but go pull up all of the pleasure boating accidents you can find with any boat. You will find that 99% are the result of #2, #3, and 4.

You need to get a MasMar.. a double hulled canopied pleasure boat ranging from 33-75 feet classed by Lloyds as a B-class offshore yachts.
http://images.google.fi/images?rlz=1...N&hl=fi&tab=wi

the First one is my former Racing Bosses 47 with twin C11´s Surface drives and 60+ mph in any weather and feels totally Numb in the process so the passengers will enjoy the Ride. If you´re interested you might wanna go for a Ride with it I can arrange it for you.

This 75 footer is a genuine 70mph boat though..and can take you form Helsinki to Copenhagen ( across the Baltic) in 12 hrs at cruising speed.

http://images.google.fi/images?hl=fi...-8&sa=N&tab=wi

We have somewhat Fast ( read 70mph) canopied/cabin boats allover over here and would need a separate Cabin boat thread IMO.


Having one when it gets cold is way fun to run in, think of it, you and your best company by yourself..the archipelago or whatever you got all by yourself, you have it warm and cozy.. dock somewhere to have quality time by just the 2 of you and maybe even sleep overnight in the boat.... what do you think...gonna hit a homerun or not?

Here´s a small Swedish 25 Footer I happen to like a lot...
Making a driveby "downtown" Stockholm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8xG4NBUqY8

[Twin27Advantage]

MikeFIN, that is a pretty kick AZZ boat. Not my style but very, very cool!

[MikeyFIN]

ohh you where too fast.. which one you mean...
So I take you like a Fast Cabin boat...sorta like a patrol boat?

[phragle]

another avenue that has not been addressed is for lack of a better term "focused instinct" with no hard data to support, but from practicle experience, There are 2 distinct mindsets, racing and recreation. with a solid 10+ years doing motorsports rescue, when one is racing, one is hyperfocused and the brain works on a subconsicous neuronal pathway of action and reaction. The racer does not "think" when things happen, he reacts instincually. When recreating this pathway is not as active. Thus a seasoned racer is much more likely to have a serious accident when not racing. he may be very comfortable racing at 120-150 mph, but when doing these speeds recreationally with passengers and various other distractions he simply is not as focused.

[Twin27Advantage]

ohh you where too fast.. which one you mean...
So I take you like a Fast Cabin boat...sorta like a patrol boat?

The 33 is cool but the one at the bottom of this page has some nice lines:
http://www.masmarboats.fi/news.html

My goal in a canopy boat is moderate power, speeds a little over a hundred, lots of bling, and a basic cabin with small sink, bed, mirror, and tv. We only stay on the boat a few times a year. It is usually coming back from the bars late and using the mirror for...you know & the wife in the morning , the tv to fall asleep, and the sink to brush your teeth.

I almost never run my boat wide open...I like being able to cruze in the 70mph range. Being able to run 70's with the drives at 0 makes for a very comfortable ride and great handling since you are not trimmed out trying to get every last mph out of it.

[MikeyFIN]

The 33 is cool but the one at the bottom of this page has some nice lines:
http://www.masmarboats.fi/news.html

I took another thread discussing just this...and yes that´s also a 33, the original one.
The man with the 75J just bought the whole company... well he can swing it..he owns most of the paper/cardboard packaging industry in North America...

[Big Time]

Being strapped into a full canopy boat, are you at a disadvantage if you are wearing a pdf? What are the racers required to wear?

[Wahoo 214]

manual inflatiable vests. You swim out and then pull the vest.