The Great Canopy debate: To cover or not to cover, Thats the question!

[Ratickle]

No doubt a canopy is safer during the crash sequence. If you are strapped in and the latch is locked.

After the crash, who knows??? In most cases I'd say yes if at least one of you are familiar with the breathing apparatus and how to use it, and can teach others how without them panicking because they are upside down, underwater, in a sinking boat......

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Chris I think you are reading it wrong. I don't know of anyone rescued alive after capsizing either.

Those were two vary different situations both with tragic endings. Gentrys was a slow not violent roll over. He was said to have panicked and his life jacket was inflated in the boat preventing his escape. The turbine was a violent cart wheel and/or tumble.

Aside from any measure made for safety sake in most cases it comes down to the luck of the draw anyway. Or bad luck.

[Slandrew]

I have drove both in some situations I favor open boat!In each lap you are planning your escape in the event of crash or roll over mirrors to see who's passing you is tough also!Pleasure no canopy Racing conopy yes!

[JupiterSunsation]

In a crash would a detachable canopy like the one OL uses on their GTX boats (like XXX) break loose easily? The boat can be open (like a Fountain 42 PR) or can be enclosed with a hatch for entry/exit.

[MikeyFIN]

Chris I think you are reading it wrong. I don't know of anyone rescued alive after capsizing either.

forum Member Koho has done it Twice...
that´s why I ain´t scared with him either in any condition and he´s done other watersports also like me.

Rule no 1. Don´t panic( everybody does the first time..I did slightly at the immersion test even but you gotta get over it).
One good practice to do is to practice swimming and flip turns for the issue--or play underwater rugby..

There´s enough air inside a capsized boat and you get freed from the belts yourself.
The Boat doesn´t SINK Fast if at all.

While sailing dinghies I was about 7 yrs old when tought to go under a capsized boat if the sea is rough and your tired because theres a lot to hang into there, it´s warmer there and a lot of air also and it´s quite cozy in fact.


I was the first one *Ever overhere to turnmyself upside down in a flipped canopy..i.e. having my head up and therefore being able to either breathe the air inside or use the bottle and free myself of the lifejacket if needed inside the canopy if it becomes a problem.
Also one thinks a lot clearer and calmer IMO being upwards.
Oh sure it requires some agility to do that in a canopy... a lot of people wondered how I did it later I didn´t even notice myself do it..the divers mentioned it later.
Well to me it came naturally as in UW Rugby and competition swimming I´ve flipped since my pre teens ... add some Martial arts for the last 26 yrs in there and I don´t see a problem in it.

One has to be fit for race or stay at home... applies also for the poker runners IMO, and especially them and their crew.

[MikeyFIN]

I have drove both in some situations I favor open boat!In each lap you are planning your escape in the event of crash or roll over mirrors to see who's passing you is tough also!Pleasure no canopy Racing conopy yes!

If I take family, close ones or just passengers with me I don´t run hard at all... I take the most unexperineced with me into consideration.

Larry Smith told no offshore pleasureboat shouldn´t go faster than 70 miles...and he didn´t design one either.
And I think the man has a LOT of Sense right there.

[MikeyFIN]

In a crash would a detachable canopy like the one OL uses on their GTX boats (like XXX) break loose easily? The boat can be open (like a Fountain 42 PR) or can be enclosed with a hatch for entry/exit.

In fact that´s the unsafest possible thing..like carrying a guillotine with you...

[Wahoo 214]

It absolutely amazes me that a boat of 120 - 170 mph would not have ALL of the best safety equipment possible. You spend $200k on power but won't use the best canopy, vests, air masks and training available. That is just plain stupied. These are race boats that people say are pleasure boats and I would bet most would not get into a race car without belts, helmet, air bags, driving class and safety suits to run those speeds.

[Airpacker]

I would take ANY open boat over one with an improperly designed and crash tested canopy system. One only has to look at boats who's canopies failed during a crash to see that a poor canopy will kill you faster than a toss out. The water pressure in a closed cockpit with a structural failure can collapse lungs, blood vessels and even stop your heart.
A well designed canopy must be coupled with a well designed passenger retention system to be effective. No good being a broken egg inside the box either.

[MOBILEMERCMAN]

Mika, Are there any others on your side that have been rescued? Why did not Koho get himself out?

[Tom A.]

Skaterdave,
I was not only referring to the consequences of a crash, I was talking about the overall aspects of running in an open boat for pleasure situations vs. in a canopy. Yes when we go fast we take a risk of mechanical failures, unforeseen events, etc. that could cause a crash. As a pleasure boater, I don't run my boat on the jagged edge during a poker run or with a group of friends. I maintain safe distances and have multiple look outs while running. Racing involves running on the jagged edge in close proximity to other boats on the edge. For that, I want a canopy, belts, air etc. but when I am out for fun I want to be able to see and feel my surroundings and I know at any time I can back off the throttles and enjoy a leisurely cruise. Pleasure boats are just that, pleasure. My boat runs 100+ and I have been there only twice, both times with only one other person on board who understands the risks involved. Most of the time I cruise 60-70, even in poker runs.
In summary, the style of operation will skew the benefits and negatives of having or not having a canopy. If the hardcore yahoo wants to run a poker run like a race, then yes a canopy may be best. But if not then the extra visibility and awareness in an open boat is better in my opinion.

[2TR]

I would take ANY open boat over one with an improperly designed and crash tested canopy system. .

So true, but that was not the question. Some people (if given the choice) would rather have a open 130mph open MTI over a 130mph Canopied MTI.

Is that wise?

[skaterdave]

tom A., to each there own, my friend. i've been lucky enough to be on both sides, racing and pleasure. i'm a cat guy so i lean towards the canopy. cats are more prone to stuffs and spins and vees are alot more forgiving in general.

on the canopy side, i think its an unspoken rule that capsules have air systems. and while a dunk test helps along with a scuba cert. i don't think capsule should be looked at as negative for pleasure boats. people need to educate themselves. as for cruising speeds, i can only reference the pokerruns i've attended and seen video of, and very few boats are there "cruising". i will say that recently what i've seen is a much more controlled and safer runs, say then 4-6 yrs ago. there is also alot less boats and the adult beverages have seemed to be frowned upon now.

[Steve 1]

So true, but that was not the question. Some people (if given the choice) would rather have a open 130mph open MTI over a 130mph Canopied MTI.

Is that wise?

The question should be do you want to live or die? a flip at 130 !! you put your life in the skill level of the driver!

[MikeyFIN]

Mika, Are there any others on your side that have been rescued? Why did not Koho get himself out?

There has been quite a lot of flips over the years, can´t recall anyone that would been in serious trouble though.

Actually he got himself out of the boat yes and towed onshore so therefore rescued.
Was a bit unclear what was meant here.

At the Europeans in our class there was a Flip with an open boat and the guys while not strapped thought they would´ve been safer in a canopy boat.
The problem is in a canopy boat strapped, one can get carried away...

[MikeyFIN]

The question should be do you want to live or die? a flip at 130 !! you put your life in the skill level of the driver!

Correct and NO I wouldn´t anymore and will not take any risks myself either behind the wheel, noncompeting that is.

[MikeyFIN]

It absolutely amazes me that a boat of 120 - 170 mph would not have ALL of the best safety equipment possible. You spend $200k on power but won't use the best canopy, vests, air masks and training available. That is just plain stupied. These are race boats that people say are pleasure boats and I would bet most would not get into a race car without belts, helmet, air bags, driving class and safety suits to run those speeds.

They aren´t even raceboats... they are deathtraps if they are with a nut behind the wheel considering the passengers might only be strapped by lap belts or grip handles...
When the people inside gets flying no handle will hold you and a lap belt only pulls your neck apart in a sudden course change.

[MikeyFIN]

If the hardcore yahoo wants to run a poker run like a race, .

then he should come racing and find the good atmosphere(?) there is among racers.

Regarding Racers in the USA vs Europe I´d gotta say your atmosphere is a lot better on the raceforms I´ve been involved there ( Oval and offshore ).

And That´s why I don´t want to continue racing much over here anymore.

And A big thanks for that and the chance to do it goes to Scott aka Daredevil.
* Never Forget!

[TCEd]

If designed correctly a canopy and associated safety equipment should work. What gets my attention is that an add on canopy probably are not designed to be integerated into an existing non-canopy hull.

Look at NASCAR where everything is hung onto the roll cage as that's the backbone of the car. On a NEW DESIGN boat you can design that type of backbone into the structure, not a metal tube frame, but a structural composite frame to include the canopy.

Adding a canopy to an existing hull would be a structures design exercise for each and every hull and canopy design and may be impossible to complete on many boats.

To start, what do we consider the strongest structural component in a boat hull ? and how do we attach/integerate into that component without compromising the original design or the add on canopy ?

Lots to think about !
ed

[Steve 1]

That is the beauty of the composite business one can add any physical he needs and build up as much is desired and taper the loading into the structure in the Old days I had a desk top Calculator and a slide rule, Nowadays the sky is the limit with the programs.