Setback for Reggie?

[JupiterSunsation]

The next thing boat companies need to improve is customer service. Fountain and Cigarette both need a refresher course........ Nortech and Sunsation could probably be used as models as to what great customer service should be......

[Matt Trulio]

Jupiter (May I call you Jupiter?),

1. The 36 Gladiator was in development before Braver bought Cigarette. It is no longer in the model line.

2. Braver is quite candid about the 31 and the 55 being less than stellar introductions.

3. The 39 Top Fish has been a strong seller, whether you see it as a hardcore center-console fishing machine (it's not) or not.

4. The 39 Top Gun has been a strong seller. Both were introduced since Braver bought Cigarette in 2002, as was the 49 Grand Sport.

5. Having spoken to Braver and Cigarette kilo boat pilot John Tomlinson, I can tell you that neither of them consider the kilo boat "a flop." It did fail to break the record. In that regard it did not succeed. But both have said, on record, that Cigarette learned a lot from the project.

6. Last ... How many Cigarettes have you owned? That's relevant if you're going to bash Cigarette's customer service. (For the record, I have not owned one.) Because for every guy you bring in who says Cigarette's customer service is lacking, I can bring in one who says it's great.

[JupiterSunsation]

Jupiter (May I call you Jupiter?),

1. The 36 Gladiator was in development before Braver bought Cigarette. It is no longer in the model line.

2. Braver is quite candid about the 31 and the 55 being less than stellar introductions.

3. The 39 Top Fish has been a strong seller, whether you see it as a hardcore center-console fishing machine (it's not) or not.

4. The 39 Top Gun has been a strong seller. Both were introduced since Braver bought Cigarette in 2002, as was the 49 Grand Sport.

5. Having spoken to Braver and Cigarette kilo boat pilot John Tomlinson, I can tell you that neither of them consider the kilo boat "a flop." It did fail to break the record. In that regard it did not succeed. But both have said, on record, that Cigarette learned a lot from the project.

6. Last ... How many Cigarettes have you owned? That's relevant if you're going to bash Cigarette's customer service. (For the record, I have not owned one.) Because for every guy you bring in who says Cigarette's customer service is lacking, I can bring in one who says it's great.

Agree with most of your points........but

#4- the 39 is really a staggered/ stretched 38, hardly a new design

#5- Boat failed at its mission, they then rebuilt/painted/styled the boat 2 times (Strength and Honor/ now black) and still can't find anyone to sell it to.
Boat is a flop....

#6- I wouldn't buy a new Cigarette no matter what the cost.... I couldn't give my money to Skip. If money was no object Nortech would get my money. My buddy bought an 07 TG in Oct 07 and was treated like a second class citizen by Skippy, like Skip did him a favor cashing the check! Several posts on here where people tried to buy Cigarette parts etc only to be referred to Phil (to get it done). 90% of the repeat buyers of Cigarettes are Phil's clients who buy because Phil is involved.
I can think of many people that owned Cigarettes in the past but have moved on to other brands that simply offer more (value, speed, comforts whatever).

THEY ARE THE BEST BRAND NAME OUT THERE......however they just need to offer something new for the money they are asking, bring the line out of the 80's!
If a new Top Gun/ 525 boat was still 200K then you can rest on your laurels and say hey that is what we build, take it or leave it. But in today's economy buyers want more bang for their buck (value, speed, comforts etc.) I don't remember a single member on here or OSO that bought a new Cigarette this year, not one. Yet NT has delivered boats to several members, the difference being innovation/ new designs/ new boats.
Phil seems to be the only one thinking about building cool boats in Miami!

Time will be the ultimate judge if Skippy is steering the ship in the right direction or if he is just re-arranging the chairs on the titanic.

[Cash Bar]

#5- Boat failed at its mission, they then rebuilt/painted/styled the boat 2 times (Strength and Honor/ now black) and still can't find anyone to sell it to.
Boat is a flop....

Boat is sold to an owner that LOVES it.

[Phantom1]

you can pick out a gremlin and a pacer from quite a distance as well...

LOL

[WMF]

OK you want negative how bout 2007 39 gas fumes!1988 31 bullett another bomb!20' you have to drive it yea in a lake! 38 Top gun can't sell late model!Gladiators spinning not just 1 either!Putting R&D into bieng the fastest V and failing!!So keep Fountain bashing it's because this site is about fast boats and they are not!

How did this thread get into bashing Cigarette?? Why Cigarette, there are many other models of Powerboats that could be brought up!! Is it envy??

[JupiterSunsation]

How did this thread get into bashing Cigarette?? Why Cigarette, there are many other models of Powerboats that could be brought up!! Is it envy??

Actually Chris brought up the fact no one bashes Cigarette.......

[JupiterSunsation]

To be fair I wouldn't consider an Outerlimits new either, don't see the value. They are good looking and fast though.

To make this discussion come full circle:

Cigarette needs some of Reggie's trophies, bottom designs.
Reggie needs some of Cigarette's rigging/bling/paint/lack of windshield designs
Both company's need to appreciate their respective followings and attract new interest in their products or they will become dinosaurs (extinct)

[WMF]

Boat is sold to an owner that LOVES it.

Here is the flop!!! running in MD poker run this summer!!

[Coolerman]

and others will probably fall by the wayside like Black Thunder and Baja.

FYI, Black Thunder is not out of business, albiet having very little work to do. They are actually finishing up building a new boat right now.

[DAREDEVIL]

Now does anybody really know whats going on with Fountain ????????

[GENERAL LEE]

Agree with most of your points........but

#4- the 39 is really a staggered/ stretched 38, hardly a new design

#5- Boat failed at its mission, they then rebuilt/painted/styled the boat 2 times (Strength and Honor/ now black) and still can't find anyone to sell it to.
Boat is a flop....

#6- I wouldn't buy a new Cigarette no matter what the cost.... I couldn't give my money to Skip. If money was no object Nortech would get my money. My buddy bought an 07 TG in Oct 07 and was treated like a second class citizen by Skippy, like Skip did him a favor cashing the check! Several posts on here where people tried to buy Cigarette parts etc only to be referred to Phil (to get it done). 90% of the repeat buyers of Cigarettes are Phil's clients who buy because Phil is involved.
I can think of many people that owned Cigarettes in the past but have moved on to other brands that simply offer more (value, speed, comforts whatever).

THEY ARE THE BEST BRAND NAME OUT THERE......however they just need to offer something new for the money they are asking, bring the line out of the 80's!
If a new Top Gun/ 525 boat was still 200K then you can rest on your laurels and say hey that is what we build, take it or leave it. But in today's economy buyers want more bang for their buck (value, speed, comforts etc.) I don't remember a single member on here or OSO that bought a new Cigarette this year, not one. Yet NT has delivered boats to several members, the difference being innovation/ new designs/ new boats.
Phil seems to be the only one thinking about building cool boats in Miami!

Time will be the ultimate judge if Skippy is steering the ship in the right direction or if he is just re-arranging the chairs on the titanic.

I really can't believe I just read that...... You CAN'T, be serious.......right? I know that's not what you really think............seriously man?

[Tank]

Chris and Matt, you guys have great points (and posts).

I must say this:

Since this is a Fountain thread; I think the best thing that ever could happen to fountain is to get rid of Reggie. Best point (and fact) on here was Chris' post about people not buying a Fountain because of Reggie....Truer words could not be spoken. I think a lot of the hate will settle down with Reggie gone. This may be the time a new owner can bring down production numbers and up production quality. Turn the brand back into what it once was.

Now, onto Cigarette stuff:

Couldn't agree more with Matts post.

Skip is very open about what has worked for him and what hasn't. His heart was in the right place for doing the Vice and the cruiser (vice for entry level boater and cruiser for those ballers that wanted something to tie their Cig up too).

I also know of a lot of people that have issues with Skip personally (business wise) and I couldn't agree more that Cigarette has to up their customer service. If they need a personal lesson, it's like you said....Call Phil. I too have heard all the horror stories of how people never get call backs on parts, questions, etc. I know that sh!t can be tedious but this is their customer base. Matter of fact, after having dinner with Skip and his family in Hawaii a couple years ago, I emailed Erika Braver who was just coming to work for Cigarette and expressed the need to build up their customer service. Has it helped? I don't know...I go through Phil! Over all though, I'd have to agree that Skip has done a LOT for cigarette. More than company owner has since Don.

Jupiter, you say that Cigarette needs to bring their bottom designs out of the 80's? The T/S design is from 2001.....Its an 8 year old bottom design not new enough for you? The decks were also updated over the past 4-5 years and now barely have the look of the original Top Guns. And yes, the 39' Top Gun is a stretched version of the 38 TG to allow for a staggard set up...and it's also their #1 seller.

The Kilo boat was hardly a flop. If you ever get a chance sit down and talk to JT who drove the boat in the run, I suggest you do so. He told me the boat had a LOT more in it and would've beaten the record if it had a padded bottom (it did 172 or 174 on a one way run and there was more in it). The issue was when he pulled the sticks back it began to chine walk. The analogy "balancing a bowling ball on a razor blade" was used several times to describe it. Skip had already put a TON of money into the project, learned what they needed too and (unlike Reggie) did the smart thing and pulled the plug on it before it cost more money needlessly in an attempt to save his own ego.

But I digress....How will Fountain do with out Reggie? Better than it did with him as long as they can get out from under the enormous pile of debt he compiled.

[WMF]

Actually Chris brought up the fact no one bashes Cigarette.......

Did you sell your Sunsation yet? and get a Cigarette just wondering with all your kind words you said about Cigarette. I tought this was a thread about Reggie??

[JupiterSunsation]

Chris and Matt, you guys have great points (and posts).

I must say this:

Since this is a Fountain thread; I think the best thing that ever could happen to fountain is to get rid of Reggie. Best point (and fact) on here was Chris' post about people not buying a Fountain because of Reggie....Truer words could not be spoken. I think a lot of the hate will settle down with Reggie gone. This may be the time a new owner can bring down production numbers and up production quality. Turn the brand back into what it once was.

Now, onto Cigarette stuff:

Couldn't agree more with Matts post.

Skip is very open about what has worked for him and what hasn't. His heart was in the right place for doing the Vice and the cruiser (vice for entry level boater and cruiser for those ballers that wanted something to tie their Cig up too).

I also know of a lot of people that have issues with Skip personally (business wise) and I couldn't agree more that Cigarette has to up their customer service. I too have heard all the horror stories of how people never get call backs on parts, questions, etc. I know that sh!t can be tedious but this is their customer base. Matter of fact, after having dinner with Skip and his family in Kona Hawaii a couple years ago, I emailed Erika Braver who was just coming to work for Cigarette and expressed the need to build up their customer service. Over all though, I'd have to agree that Skip has done a LOT for cigarette. More than company owner has since Don.

Jupiter, you say that Cigarette needs to bring their bottom designs out of the 80's? The T/S design in from 2001....Its an 8 year old bottom design not new enough for you? Yes, the 39' Top Gun is a stretched version of the 38 TG and it's also their #1 seller.

The Kilo boat was hardly a flop. If you ever get a chance sit down and talk to JT who drove the boat in the run, I suggest you do so. He told me the boat had a LOT more in it and would've beaten the record if it had a padded bottom (it did 172 or 174 on a one way run and there was more in it). The issue was when he pulled the sticks back it began to chine walk. The analogy "balancing a bowling ball on a razor blade" was used several times to describe it. Skip had already put a TON of money into the project, learned what they needed too and (unlike Reggie) did the smart thing and pulled the plug on it before it cost more money needlessly in an attempt to save his own ego.

But I digress....How will Fountain do with out Reggie? Better than it did with him as long as they can get out from under the enormous pile of debt he compiled.

Tank I can agree with you on a lot here- but to clarify they need to update the TG from the 80's as far as looks. The 38 bottom is now 10 years old and probably could be tweaked but the waterline/cabin/cockpit up is all 1988..... Tied to the dock it would be hard to tell the difference for most especially since they have brought the black dash back in production.

The Kilo boat was purpose built that failed at its purpose. Expensive R+D for sure. Glad they learned something but it sure hasn't worked its way into production. Good luck to the new owner that is enjoying the boat.

[db71]

This is awesome I think all of the boat builders are in trouble.

It is funny that Black thunder is mentioned because they are probably in the least trouble. They actually have a business that is not boat builder that is where they make their money. (Don't ask me what it is).

I'm no genius but I would take a plant like fountain and build something that is more used (like replacement semi parts or bathtubs or windmills, military parts, etc.) and then build boats to order. That way they keep their volume up, material cost down, turn around time fast by having the manpower to move fast. This is why people say RF failed in business and why Oxford would not make him CEO. He could have seen the downturn taken what money he had a bought into another type of composites type business (not baja) not one that is a recreation business. I think this is what will happen if this company/plant is kept together. It would make the most business sense.

[JupiterSunsation]

I really can't believe I just read that...... You CAN'T, be serious.......right? I know that's not what you really think............seriously man?

Brandon you are a perfect example. Owned a couple of Cigs and sold the T/S boat only not to buy another (the 20 is more of a nostalgia piece). My point is many owners have moved on never to return since the product hasn't been improved/updated. Could you see yourself dropping 500K+ on a 39/700 boat anytime soon?

[JupiterSunsation]

Did you sell your Sunsation yet? and get a Cigarette just wondering with all your kind words you said about Cigarette. I tought this was a thread about Reggie??

Nope....same 32 I have had for almost 5 years with warranty until Dec. 2010 I can't see myself spending anything but gas until then. If you read my earlier post I said I would never buy a new Cig (or OL) because I could see myself giving my money to Skip. On the used market there are some decent deals now but with builders like AT building new 37's for a shade over 200K it will be real hard justifying spending that on a 3-5 year old Cigarette. Per foot/per HP the prices are coming down both new and used.

In years past, with crazy markets some boats could be bought used, enjoyed for the summer and re-sold at a break even price. A lot of Cig owners (as well as other brands) got used to this way of thinking only to find that market strategy doesn't apply any longer.

[Tank]

Tank I can agree with you on a lot here- but to clarify they need to update the TG from the 80's as far as looks. The 38 bottom is now 10 years old and probably could be tweaked but the waterline/cabin/cockpit up is all 1988..... Tied to the dock it would be hard to tell the difference for most especially since they have brought the black dash back in production.

The Kilo boat was purpose built that failed at its purpose. Expensive R+D for sure. Glad they learned something but it sure hasn't worked its way into production. Good luck to the new owner that is enjoying the boat.

Come on bro...the first 38 Top Gun Twin step was the Lip-Ship F-2 boat a 2000 model. the first T/S production boat was owned by Chet Huffman and was called Miami Two Step...and '01 model. So yes, the T/S technology for cigarette is coming up on the 10 year mark but not their yet. And on the "looks" part....the deck is updated (more round, different engine hatch, different vents, no life line on the deck, different hatches, different fairing) the interior is totally different (more two tone colors, different materials, fold down arm rests in the back or individual seats in the back, new style bolsters in the front with a one piece design), the dash layout is completely different (set up for GPS/Garmin = less gauges, new switches for ignition, lights, bildge pumps etc., new molded fiberglass that wraps around the dials, etc.). the cabin couldn't be more different (and actually I think worse than the 80's/90's model) if there was any area I'd agree with that needed some love, it'd be the cabin. the cover girl bare bones cabin just doesn't do it for me. But none-the-less, it is a different cabin than the 80's & 90's cabin.

I don't know man, over all I have to disagree on the dated thing. You put my boat directly next to an 08 or 09 38 Top Gun I think 9 out of 10 people (not even boating people) would be able to pick out the newer style boat). Over the past 4-5 years, Cigarette has made the most changed to the styling of the boats than I've ever seen. Granted the early 00's Top Guns basically look like a 90's T/G but with twin steps but in 04-05 they started really changing it up.

[JupiterSunsation]

This is awesome I think all of the boat builders are in trouble.

It is funny that Black thunder is mentioned because they are probably in the least trouble. They actually have a business that is not boat builder that is where they make their money. (Don't ask me what it is).

I'm no genius but I would take a plant like fountain and build something that is more used (like replacement semi parts or bathtubs or windmills, military parts, etc.) and then build boats to order. That way they keep their volume up, material cost down, turn around time fast by having the manpower to move fast. This is why people say RF failed in business and why Oxford would not make him CEO. He could have seen the downturn taken what money he had a bought into another type of composites type business (not baja) not one that is a recreation business. I think this is what will happen if this company/plant is kept together. It would make the most business sense.

Good side business plan.... I think Tiara yachts is doing something with composite fan blades for windmills or something like that in order to keep their staff busy in slow boat building times.

Reggie just got caught with high debt, slow demand/production. In 2004-2005 he would have been fine with the same debt ratios since he could produce his way to profitablity or work his way out of the debt. Same thing happens when someone loses their job, even with the same bills they can't make ends meet since the income drop killed them.