Setback for Reggie?

[Ratickle]

I'm still worried about Black Thunder....

Me too. Bob's supposed to call me, we missed hooking up at LOTO. Maybe I'll give him a shout.

[PatriYacht]

Great, let me know what's going on.

[T2x]

I wish I had never started this thread,had no idea it would get so crazy.

It's probably a good thing that you did...... My issue with the Reggie thing is that even though I am far from a blind supporter of him or his products, I think this issue is far too serious for a lot of speculation.

On the other hand the thread has stimulated a lot of healthy debate.

To the point of a bankruptcy (regardless of the brand to keep this neutral) being good or bad for the industry. There are three separate answers to that question.

1. It is bad for the employees, customers and dealers of the affected company.
2. it is good for the remaining competing brands, their employees, dealers , and customers who have one less competitor in a down market.
3. As far as the industry's "image" is concerned and the thought that it might somehow send a performance boater to a more traditional product like Sea Ray, the last time I checked Sea Ray and other cruiser manufacturers are struggling just as much as the performance boat segment....if not more.

In the past 40 years I have started and run no less than 6 companies (3 in transportation, 2 performance and race boat manufacturing, 1 video sales) and, by the grace of God and maybe a little skill and passion, have never experienced a bankruptcy. At the risk of being redundant.....and I am nothing if not consistent...... try looking at this from the big picture. There are far too many boat, car, trailer, truck, airplane, and motorhome manufacturers and dealers for the current economy. Many of them build a mediocre product, spend too much on marketing,and have too many sales outlets. In addition banks are reluctant to fund either their business model or their retail sales at this time. This is a perfect time to "weed out deadwood" as Ratickle has suggested, and leave a cadre of "survivors" who are time and battle tested for that moment when the economy returns......if it ever really does. My point is, should the economy never return to the robust cash machine that we have experienced in an ever rising cycle dating back to the 50's.....or (in the best case IMHO)......not re-invigorate until the damage done by our elected officials in the past year is undone (decades?),......... then the loss of any one company is only the beginning of the complete decimation of the entire recreational motor vehicle industry. Just like the big box stores have all but eliminated the local toy, electronics and home appliance stores,take a good look at your regional Bass Pro Shops/Cabela's boat and engine department. That very well might be the model for the future of the retail marine industry. In the face of that spectre the proliferation of performance brands ranging from offshore vees and cats to Colorado river deckboats and runabouts makes no sense at all. To try and "save" a company....or to make this a plea for sympathy around lost jobs and revenues is moot as well. It is what it is and must be dealt with professionally, not with emotion.

This certainly isn't what I wish for....but it is what I see.

T2x

[db71]

People seem to think that the people who are against fountain winning are haters of people on top or just reggie in general. I do not think that is the case at all I think people are upset at the excess spending, putting more boats out there than could be afforded by the people therefore creating a overstock in the market and driving prices down then when there is a rainy day realizing you have not saved at all for it and just keep going with the excess spending etc. I think the business plan here was poor at best spend and build like there is no tomorrow.

Every article I read makes some comment about Fountian have 400+ employees in 2006 how long did they work 3 months 6 months? How much did the company profit that year? It seems that is a sticking point it does not matter how many employees he had or how many sales he has done it is about what is going on now.

On another note reggie comments in the newspaper article he hopes liberty keeps fountain in NC so what that tells me is he still has a title but the control is long gone.

[Offshoredrillin]

It's probably a good thing that you did...... My issue with the Reggie thing is that even though I am far from a blind supporter of him or his products, I think this issue is far too serious for a lot of speculation.

On the other hand the thread has stimulated a lot of healthy debate.

To the point of a bankruptcy (regardless of the brand to keep this neutral) being good or bad for the industry. There are three separate answers to that question.

1. It is bad for the employees, customers and dealers of the affected company.
2. it is good for the remaining competing brands, their employees, dealers , and customers who have one less competitor in a down market.
3. As far as the industry's "image" is concerned and the thought that it might somehow send a performance boater to a more traditional product like Sea Ray, the last time I checked Sea Ray and other cruiser manufacturers are struggling just as much as the performance boat segment....if not more.

In the past 40 years I have started and run no less than 6 companies (3 in transportation, 2 performance and race boat manufacturing, 1 video sales) and, by the grace of God and maybe a little skill and passion, have never experienced a bankruptcy. At the risk of being redundant.....and I am nothing if not consistent...... try looking at this from the big picture. There are far too many boat, car, trailer, truck, airplane, and motorhome manufacturers and dealers for the current economy. Many of them build a mediocre product, spend too much on marketing,and have too many sales outlets. In addition banks are reluctant to fund either their business model or their retail sales at this time. This is a perfect time to "weed out deadwood" as Ratickle has suggested, and leave a cadre of "survivors" who are time and battle tested for that moment when the economy returns......if it ever really does. My point is, should the economy never return to the robust cash machine that we have experienced in an ever rising cycle dating back to the 50's.....or (in the best case IMHO)......not re-invigorate until the damage done by our elected officials in the past year is undone (decades?),......... then the loss of any one company is only the beginning of the complete decimation of the entire recreational motor vehicle industry. Just like the big box stores have all but eliminated the local toy, electronics and home appliance stores,take a good look at your regional Bass Pro Shops/Cabela's boat and engine department. That very well might be the model for the future of the retail marine industry. In the face of that spectre the proliferation of performance brands ranging from offshore vees and cats to Colorado river deckboats and runabouts makes no sense at all. To try and "save" a company....or to make this a plea for sympathy around lost jobs and revenues is moot as well. It is what it is and must be dealt with professionally, not with emotion.

This certainly isn't what I wish for....but it is what I see.

T2x

I agree good post.

As for the "deadwood" i agree, using what was said above about the politicians and government intervention. think of Yellowstone national park, for years there were no fires or smoking allowed, the forest grew and grew and was choking itself out, because the government wanted it protected and interfered, lightning struck and part of it burned, weeding out the deadwood as well and allowing new growth. that section prospered, and they realized that cutting and burning and weeding out the deadwood was a beneficial part of life.

As for bankruptcy, I too have never had to claim it, in 06 burdened by lawsuits, I thought about it, but made changes that saved both my companies money, and pulled them out. I have also had people claim bankruptcy to get out of paying me, then call me a month later and want product. I think those laws are too lenient. i had an employee want to borrow money to hire a bankruptcy attorney, I asked him if he saw the irony in borrowing money to screw the people he borrowed money from...he didn't catch on...

[T2x]

It is what it is.

[Ratickle]

i had an employee want to borrow money to hire a bankruptcy attorney, I asked him if he saw the irony in borrowing money to screw the people he borrowed money from...he didn't catch on...

Now that's funny......

[Ratickle]

It is what it is.

Wow, hadn't seen that one.

[Matt Trulio]

My friend T2X makes so many good points. I particularly enjoy his observation about not worrying about the "image of the industry" based on Fountain's woes. Look at the automobile industry. Look at the insurance industry.

No one segment is immune.

[Ratickle]

My friend T2X makes so many good points. I particularly enjoy his observation about not worrying about the "image of the industry" based on Fountain's woes. Look at the automobile industry. Look at the insurance industry.

No one segment is immune.

All industry in the US is currently under attack by foreign competition, poor government fiscal policy, extremely high scam rates by the banking and investment communities, and an extremely high unemployment rate.

Disgressionary spending products are being hit the worse. I think it will get even worse than it is now. Even though I do not wish any company to go under, I give Fountain no chance of long term survival. But, I've been wrong before.....

[Twin27Advantage]

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/5...ip-of-fountain

[Powerabout]

Nice post T2
From the outside looking in..
I think Reggie's problem and the industrys is about the same as the whole US versus the guys who hold all your bonds..do we or dont we?
The Japs and Chinese are getting nervous and without them you woundn't be buying any performance boats on credit.
Up to this point they have chosen to swap US paper for their goods ( helped them grow) when they decide this is getting risky there will be a few big changes in the US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

Reggies had a great life on credit and so has the US.

[Slandrew]

Nice post T2
From the outside looking in..
I think Reggie's problem and the industrys is about the same as the whole US versus the guys who hold all your bonds..do we or dont we?
The Japs and Chinese are getting nervous and without them you woundn't be buying any performance boats on credit.
Up to this point they have chosen to swap US paper for their goods ( helped them grow) when they decide this is getting risky there will be a few big changes in the US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

Reggies had a great life on credit and so has the US.

True but in any buisness or LLC smart budget is binding buyer before seller producesI will use example from my line of work lets say you want to build 30 commercial stores do you think a bank whould lend the money with out signed leases??answer NO!Now even if your using your own cash whould you build them before leasing ??NO!But some people doHope economy comes back & we all start spending again soon

[GENERAL LEE]

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/5...ip-of-fountain

Are either entity trying to keep the company publically traded? I haven't read anything about that yet.

I think ONE important reason to keep Reggie around in some capacity, is to insure new improvements to the product going forward. I could be way off on this, but I'd assume Reggie has tweaked & changed his hull designs more than any other major manufacturer I can think of. This could have contributed to the massive spending, but they were damn sure the fastest Vee out there!

I wonder if anyone in the two groups that are bidding has any experience in building HIGH performance boats, or if they intend to bring someone in that does? I wonder who the person would be........?

[Offshoredrillin]

Are either entity trying to keep the company publically traded? I haven't read anything about that yet.

I think ONE important reason to keep Reggie around in some capacity, is to insure new improvements to the product going forward. I could be way off on this, but I'd assume Reggie has tweaked & changed his hull designs more than any other major manufacturer I can think of. This could have contributed to the massive spending, but they were damn sure the fastest Vee out there!

I wonder if anyone in the two groups that are bidding has any experience in building HIGH performance boats, or if they intend to bring someone in that does? I wonder who the person would be........?

true, however did that massive R&D make it to the production boats or was it just used on personal race boats. The amount of time and money to make a new mold or change the existing ones is huge and with the way they were popping boats out did the molds constantly get changed? Possible but I would find that rather hard to believe.

[Geronimo36]

Rob, you made me think of something that's been on my mind for a while...

This may be off topic but, a lot of boat companies have been changing their designs to increase performance and then they release new models, new lengths and call it a different name. Fountain seems to be the only one who kept the models the same. At one point do the people who just spent $500K on the latest/greatest on brand X get ****ed off when only 6 months later the company is selling what they say is the latest and greatest to the next guy?

I'm one for improvements in designs, it's important but to me it would that make those older models worthless when it comes to resale?

Anyone have similar thoughts?

[Ryan8886]

Rob, you made me think of something that's been on my mind for a while...

This may be off topic but, a lot of boat companies have been changing their designs to increase performance and then they release new models, new lengths and call it a different name. Fountain seems to be the only one who kept the models the same. At one point do the people who just spent $500K on the latest/greatest on brand X get ****ed off when only 6 months later the company is selling what they say is the latest and greatest to the next guy?

I'm one for improvements in designs, it's important but to me it would that make those older models worthless when it comes to resale?

Anyone have similar thoughts?

I dunno....the computer companies have been doing it for years. By the time you've ordered it....it's obsolete....and nobody's hung them. How about A/V home theatre? Seen how fast the latest and sexiest becomes yesterday's news there? America's been junkies for the latest and greatest ever since the industrial revolution. On the flip side....anyone remember the mid to late 80's when GM told Buick and GMC they had to discontinue the Regal Grand National and Typhoon car and truck models because the turbo/intercooled 3.6L would smoke the crap out of the Vette for about 10K less? I suppose I'd have been pretty cheesed if I had my new hair weave blown off by a friggin Buick that cost a whole lot less than my vaunted Vette. Companies make more from selling more for more...not more for less. Makes for great conversation though!

[phragle]

Brunswick was recently upgraded to "outperform".....................

[T2x]

Brunswick was recently upgraded to "outperform".....................

so were a lot of stocks......

I wonder who will buy boating products in a "jobless recovery"...without consumer credit?

T2x

[Powerabout]

in this environment
outperform means
not going down as fast as we thought